Guild Wars 2

Phy.2913:

phys.7689:

Phy.2913:

How is this game anti-social? mobs, loot, chests, even resource nodes are all shared. There’s no tagging mobs or stealing nodes from other players. You’re not forced to group with people, you can just run in and start hitting things and get the same rewards.

What am I missing?

is this sarcasm? you are basically talking about anti social tools. Im not saying it should be social, but those other systems in those games you spoke of, tend to force cooperation, teamwork and sociall structures.

No, those other systems force you to go off by yourself and shun other people.

when executed properly they basically force you to group up. See old ffxi, yeah you could try to solo earn money, but trying to do it via killing was basically dooming yourself to slave wages. I rember one of the famous solo farms, killing tigers for the equivalent of roughly 60 copper IF the drop the fang. Compare that to a team of 6 sharing the loot for a boss fight instance with a pot of the equivalent of 60-500 gold

gathering was pretty antisocial though i admit.

Dengar.1785:

phys.7689:

is this sarcasm? you are basically talking about anti social tools. Im not saying it should be social, but those other systems in those games you spoke of, tend to force cooperation, teamwork and sociall structures.

No they usually force people to be kittens and make sure you get to a target first, forgoing any chance at teamwork ever.

they force you to group up to get loot at a decent pace. Hitting a target first you cant kill, or killking a monster 10 levels lower for crappy loot slowly, isnt usually too beneficial

Phy.2913:

How is this game anti-social? mobs, loot, chests, even resource nodes are all shared. There’s no tagging mobs or stealing nodes from other players. You’re not forced to group with people, you can just run in and start hitting things and get the same rewards.

What am I missing?

is this sarcasm? you are basically talking about anti social tools. Im not saying it should be social, but those other systems in those games you spoke of, tend to force cooperation, teamwork and sociall structures.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

phys.7689:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

I don’t agree with the OP’s proposition, but that’s no reason to insist that they should have saved up $50 for the expansion. If the player doesn’t want to spend, that’s their choice; they shouldn’t be expected to be forced to pay to play the core content.

For the OP, the reason I disagree with your initial critique is that you can already play the old content without getting an extractor. The agony on L50 and below is reduced from how it was before, so there’s no particular need to extract your +10 from an old item. Plus, you can make new ones for less than pre-HoT values, since the price of +1 infusions has drops by 40% so far.

The L51+ fractals, however, are new content and I think it’s fair for ANet to gate (or nearly gate) those levels behind the expansion, including convenience items such as extractors.

problem with you theory is, its not new content.
scales were reworked, old level 50 is not as hard as it used to be
it also doesnt give the same reward teir, and only gives you access to 3 dailies.

the entire level 51-60 fractal was one fractal before. which had exploding enemies. you could randomly roll all of those levels.

id say “new” content begins at 71.

I still don’t think that makes the OP correct. The claim is that “new” fractal content is unreasonably gated in favor of HoT players, entirely due to the absence of reasonably-priced extractors. Even if I agreed that “new” content isn’t available until L71+ (and I’d prefer not to digress the thread about what “new” might mean), the extractors aren’t required.

L71, the suggested line between old and new, requires AR98. That can be acquired without masteries or extractors:

• Three infused items: two rings, one back. The rings are easily obtained (forged or found); the backpack is only slightly more difficult.
• +51 AR from three +17 Agony Infusions (you could get larger AI, but the costs become prohibitive).
• +25 from four trinkets + back item each with +5 simple infusions
• +30 from ascended armor.

That gives a total of AR101, allowing those without HoT to do all of the “old” content, regardless of when that starts.

Admittedly, that’s likely to be more expensive than the options available to HoT owners, but not it’s not substantially more expensive than options that players chose prior to HoT’s launch.

tl;dr the OP’s claim that FotM’s old content is unreasonably gated against core-only customers is an exaggeration.

(I ignore entirely other potential issues of balance, rewards, and ‘fun’ that might be present in the new system — my goal was only to address the specific claim made by the OP.)

sorry man, +17 are prohibitive, extremely so.
that would take 2^16 infusions 65536 infusions. Its geometric growth. that doesnt even include the insane gold cost of trying to buy the thermocatalytics.

that is no where near approachable.

and really im letting 71+ be called new content, when it barely fits the category.

They didnt consider normal fractal players at all. Mist esssence no longer even drops at the right levels,, making it highly unlikely that a non hot player can even infuse their rings to put those 2261 gold (just infusions alone) infusions x3 into the slots.
Not to mention, since you cant extract the agony, you cant even really work toward it, putting say a +12 in there would set you back 2048 infusions you would never get back.

not to mention full ascended is nowhere near close to acessible.

I know you are an anet fan, but it doesnt even begin to make any sense what you are suggesting as being accessible.

and its substantially more expensive because getting level 50, only required 70 agony. And had even more content available than current hot, which basically takes 10/12 possibilities out of 3 of the old instabilities.

ODB.6891:

I’m just going to come out and be honest. We told you so ANET. We told you these ideas for changing fractals were terrible and were going to ruin the fractal experience. You announced some of these changes …specifically the toughness, vitality, and precision scaling of fractal mobs and we immediately told you that those were bad ideas. We explained why they were bad ideas. We explained that changes like this were not going to accomplish what you thought they would…which is to cater to the zerk hate of the phiw crowd. The logic just doesn’t make sense. How did anyone make the logical leap to make you think that making bosses/mobs more resistant to damage…would make anyone happy? Now you have these huge hp/toughness bags for bosses that take everyone a ridiculous amount of time to kill. I’m positive that has not increased the happiness of the phiw crowd….as now it takes them even longer to do fractals in their nomad gear. It has not increased the happiness of the zerk crowd (also your paying customers btw…in case you forgot), since all you have accomplished is to prolong the fights artificially…no new encounter mechanics to reward skilled play. On top of that…you add in the worst ideas ever (instabilities that punish skilled play, take away control of our characters, force involuntary deaths as a result of taking away control of our characters, and punish us for the core mechanics of your game..namely boons and dodging). You also go as far as to seemingly eliminate the rewards from fractals at the same time as removing all the fun from fractals. They don’t even reward decent experience/mastery. You removed the randomization of fractals as well…now just predictable and boring. Are you guys trying to kill our interest in fractals so you can stop supporting them…just like dungeons? If that’s the case, then maybe you are on the right track. Fractals were one of the few reasons I logged in most days. I see no reason to enter a fractal with the current lack of rewards and marathon boss fights. The funny part is that you didn’t even accomplish what you were after with the boss fight changes…now you definitely don’t want to play with low damage dealers…because it will take even longer to complete…for the even crappier rewards (fractal boxes that you have to pay to open…with crap rewards once you do). I’m amazed that someone actually got paid to come up with this stuff.

the sad part is that anet generally misses the point of feedback fixating on just one part of it. The point of anti zerk players was to encourage team play and skilled play, their solutions dont do that.

And it will be months to years before they can deal with the feedback we give now. Screwing with fractal incentives and dungeon incentives at the same time was a bad idea as well. Instanced content post hot is extremely slim. And 5 man content is about to be non existant.

Heres what fractals needs, imo

• drop rate indicators this doesnt need to be s mystery, most of the progression is about this, so we need to know.
• more varied instabilities the ones yall left are some of the least engaging/interactive of the lot.
• some sort of randomized mode with added benefits as predicted, this basically becomes a system where you repeat the easiest fractals most of the time, and makes harder fractals pointless. If you still want fractals to be short:
  • random fractal tier 3* cool down 40 minutes unless completed
  • also, not for shortness, but a randomized survivor mode, or old fractal type (3-4 randoms with a boss fractal) wouldbe nice.
• rewards we know if you want people to do content at all, it needs rewards, fractals has a huge investment in time, gold, and challenge. Acc bound ascended was a good reward, you need to get those rates back up. legendary isnt enough. back[ack is low stats.

• new fractals, regularly* its been two years since we had a fractal, thats too long for the only endorsed 5 man challenging content.

it really is amazing they straight up selected no dodge and boon on crit, for 20 levels. it actually seems like anet fractal change plan was to mechanically make berserk gear inferior.
Which is fairly stupid in fractals. No single gear set should be punished when gear is a long term goal, especially in fractals where infusions increase gear investment.

that aside
10 levels with the same instabilities, its totally lame.

Soooooo

anybody doing an analysis of what drops from each teir of daily box since anet doesnt tell us when they change things?

laokoko.7403:

I know you think you are important because you paid 50$. But quite honestly, those 50$ isn’t even enough to keep this game running for 3 years. Let alone keep the stock holder happy.

Basically without the cash shop, and people continue paying money for the game. This game won’t survive.

i know what your getting at, but actually it is.
problem is its stressful and they have to keep putting out new games, like gw1. Its also not as profitable, but its still profitable if you have a hit game.

however i dont think gw2 is a cross over hit any more.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

I don’t agree with the OP’s proposition, but that’s no reason to insist that they should have saved up $50 for the expansion. If the player doesn’t want to spend, that’s their choice; they shouldn’t be expected to be forced to pay to play the core content.

For the OP, the reason I disagree with your initial critique is that you can already play the old content without getting an extractor. The agony on L50 and below is reduced from how it was before, so there’s no particular need to extract your +10 from an old item. Plus, you can make new ones for less than pre-HoT values, since the price of +1 infusions has drops by 40% so far.

The L51+ fractals, however, are new content and I think it’s fair for ANet to gate (or nearly gate) those levels behind the expansion, including convenience items such as extractors.

problem with you theory is, its not new content.
scales were reworked, old level 50 is not as hard as it used to be
it also doesnt give the same reward teir, and only gives you access to 3 dailies.

the entire level 51-60 fractal was one fractal before. which had exploding enemies. you could randomly roll all of those levels.

id say “new” content begins at 71.

Kayberz.5346:

phys.7689:

Skyline Crash.6254:

nightfall was a campaign, not an expansion

HoT is more akin to EotN expansion for GW1

people keep saying this, but EotN actually also smashes hot fairly easily content wise

Not really, considering 1 area like verdant brink is essentially equal to AT LEAST 10 gw1 zones. The zones in gw1 were extremely basic. And the gw1 games never rrally added significant gameplay changes, they were essentially the same game in a new place

its objectively more content.
However maybe subjectively more value.

Hey if enough people are happy with it, its all good. How much something is worth is based on that. We shall see in the next few weeks how it holds up

fractal mist essences drop at the wrong fractal ranges

Leveling my friend up in fractals, i noticed mist essences nolonger drop at the proper levels.
This makes it almost impossible for people to infuse rings to progress, unless they get a lucky ring infused drop with decent stats.

vials (tier 1) still drop as far as level 30
globs (tier 2) seem to start dropping at 35
shards(teir 3) unknown?

the text on the item in game says they should be
1-9 teir
11-20 teir 2
20+ teir 3

which makes sense because people start to need (infused) rings pretty early

Skyline Crash.6254:

nightfall was a campaign, not an expansion

HoT is more akin to EotN expansion for GW1

people keep saying this, but EotN actually also smashes hot fairly easily content wise

Divine Flavor.2016:

Harper.4173:

There is very, very little content in the new expansion – and it forces you to stretch it out even more to make it appear as if there was more content.

Compare the amount of content in HoT to the full game – remember you paid full price for both.

Now leave aside the map size – some might argue the new maps are more content rich – concentrate on the other things.

HoT brings fewer new skins, fewer events, fewer instances, fewer story instances, fewer new enemies, fewer mechanics – fewer everything than the core game did on release.
I wouldn’t even be upset if they at least did 60-80% of what we had on Core release – but this is absurd.

And no – core Tyria masteries are not content – they are features – you can’t take old content and present it as new.

Comparing the HoT expansion to something like a WoW expansion might be a little unfair. It may seem pricey for what you get, compared to a WoW expansion, but you also should remember we’re not paying a monthly fee. In the end, development does cost money.

monthly fee is balanced against cash shop development differences.
All you can eat versus going to the food mall.

basically we have seen the profit reports, they made enough money from gem store to compete with subscription games ongoing income. Expansion costs are to pay for development.

It just occured to me a lot of time and money probably went to voice acting, kill it, its not worth the cost.
Or, maybe sell voice acted story packs at a premium cost. That crap ruins development time/costs and limits what they can feasibly produce, adds little longevity, and often takes you out of the story more when poorly executed, or just not what the player envisions.

i think a new race and leveling maps would have served their casual/midrange/explorer types better than voice acting

Behellagh.1468:

Astralporing.1957:

Behellagh.1468:

kuscheldrow.6415:

Behellagh.1468:

Samnang.1879:

I have like tons of classes.

I can’t spend time doing the same thing for all those classes… Please consider dropping the value of hero points needed… 250 is still a lot for someone who has like 7 or 8 classes, and want to play elite spec for all of them.

Or if you make hero points; make some hero points have 50 point value worth…. but more challenging or whatever.

Don’t want to waypoint everywhere doing boring things just to play elite spec :/

They can’t drop it much below 250 or those who map completed Tyria, which is needed if you were crafting legendary weapons, could unlock them completely since that gives them just north of 210 HP.

And? They completed Tyria. That should be fair enough. O.o
Plus I’d rather have people on the Maguuma maps that are dedicated and helping to do the map events than being on a map with only heropoint jumpers because they’re FORCED to. Plus the choice whether we do HPs in Tyria OR Maguuma should be ours.

But it shouldn’t be 50 HP as Samnang suggested. The standard Specialization is 60 HP. Then you toss in the various utility, heal and elite skills the ES gets, and the skins/gear (not sure if it’s actual gear) and you are probably over 100 HP and that’s before the “elite” tax and an unlock cost because it shouldn’t be free for a new set of weapon skills and profession mechanics.

The original datamined value was 175, if i remember correctly. Not sure why Anet decided to change it that much later on – maybe they were afraid that players won’t like the new zones enough, and felt the need to increase pressure to play them. I have no idea, but it still was a bad choice – a reasoning like that would have led to new elites costing in 1000-s of HPs in future expansions.

Funny thing, it’s not the first time it happened – remember when they had to rebalance hp costs of skills and traits from their original plan in the new trait system? It was exactly the same situation. One would have thought they might have learned something from the first case.

Honestly that’s the problem with datamining, too few understand the concept of placeholder values and text. If I was ANet I would intentionally troll the dataminers to discredit them since they either ruin story surprises or start controversies that wouldn’t exit otherwise.

and thus cause more controversies and failure to meet expectations.
anets desire for secrecy is not helping them make a better game. Straight up asking or saying we plan for elites to require you to complete sizable chunk of the new maps/content, would have saved time if they had to change it, or at least set expectations.
the solution was a bandaid number tweak, its not really the best solution to their goal which was incentivizing completing the area, while also not seeming off putting

Wethospu.6437:

I fully support the predefined fractal maps because of the advantages it gives. Most importantly having map specific instabilities and fine tuning the difficulty. Unfortunately neither exists. But it’s a good start.

Based on my data, Archdiviner did 7682-8663 damage with his swing prepatch on scale 1 and 18644-21024 damage on scale 50. If he now does 4k on scale 59, something is seriously wrong. Also hopefully they remove that toughness scaling to balance direct and condition damage (haven’t tested how severe it is).

I think dailies should be predefined to encourage doing different scales. Daily reward should be bigger when you need to do harder fractals.

Also why dungeons weren’t recycled to fractal instances? Pick/combine some best fights for a decent encounter.

predefined has its merits, however mostly its good for practice.
There should be a randomized mode with better rewards
the instability change is uncreative, and does eliminate skillfull play (31-40)

what people say about 60-100 seems very bad. Long fights doesnt=better fights.

also nerf to getting ascended(weapons/chests) in fractals far as i have heard.
most likely, the new 100 reward level= the old 50, but with less possible attempts at ascended

feels like honestly, fractals need another rework to be the main 5 man content. Unfortunately, it took them 2 years to do this rework, so its pretty hopeless.

Test.8734:

Crinn.7864:

I’ve never seen a MMO expac have as much content as the original core game did.

They’re also usually not priced at $50,00. Other than WoW’s expansions (which are overpriced like two thirds of what Blizzard makes), they’re usually around $40,00.

Crinn.7864:

You realize they literally spend years developing the core game right?

Building engines, systems and tools. Just making more content should have been significantly faster, yet HoT doesn’t have that much content.

BrotherBelial.3094:

The first and only expansion for Guild Wars, was Eye of the North. No new race, PvP mode, a few maps and new skills. I’d say HoT is about the same as EoTN.

GW:EN had 25 new explorable areas, plus 3 new cities, plus 18 new dungeons, plus 100 new profession skills, plus 50 new PvE only skills, plus 41 new armor unique looks, and tons of new weapon skins.

Even if HoT had that much content (and no, it doesn’t), EoTN was never priced as $50,00.

Psygo.5976:

They have also stated that all Living Story moving forward will require HoT. So really you have to count all that stuff too.

How much “stuff”? When it is going to be released? How many releases will it have? How long until it’s gated behind one more expansion?

The Living Story failed. ArenaNet itself said that if they did it right, we would not have an expansion, and here we are. Both seasons of the LS failed to increase GW2 earnings – worse, neither could even stop said earnings from falling.

No, if HoT is successful, the lesson ArenaNet will learn is that it’s better to make expansions than LS. Which means, the “Living Story” you will get with HoT? Merely token content while they work on something else.

i dont think expansion focused development is a bad idea if executed well.
that means they need to be able to add content of note, at least every 3 months(new instances/maps/story) WHILE developing.

there should never be an 8 month gap in content of note.

the price should also better reflect the content of the expansion, these days with dlc, full price game means its complete.

Of course theres a ton of small 15-20 dollar dlc, but thats already covered by gem store.

It is extremely content light, many people thinking it isnt are looking at it as, right now its exciting. It better be, its only been a week.

That said for many people a week of fun is good enough.

I personally find it more like a big dlc.

The major lasting content is specs, the problem is i feel like they didnt build a lot to actually do with the specs after about 2 weeks or so. Then you ll start to hear more people saying it feels small.

They will hve to release a lot of content post release to keep people hyped, but i dont think that has been their focus development wise

Takayuki.7485:

You can still get Ascended boxes just like normal. 1-20 is a tier. 21-50 is a tier. 51+ is a tier. Complete 3, get a daily chest, and it’s even shown in your Daily Fractal tab. Have seen a Golden Fractal Axe from 21-50 tier chest and a Raiders Boot Box as well (forget the tier on that one).

do you have evidence that ascended boxes drop from teir 1 daily boxes?
how do the daily fractal boxes fit in?
does reward level effect chances of ascended drops?
what if a level 5 guy gets a teir 3 box? what are his chances?

Yes, the jungle needed some desired progression and goals, but gw2 has developed a large amount of players who never cared for world exploration, and a large amount who dont like puzzles.

This means that specializations, the main selling point was bound to annoy a large amount of players.

so, they have to come up with a means of progression that is desirable, yet not required for other types.

anyhow, to get back the old feeling of needing like 20 hero points to unlock your charachter, just dont world complete on your other charachters.

Leveling my friend up in fractals, i noticed mist essences nolonger drop at the proper levels.
This makes it almost impossible for people to infuse rings to progress, unless they get a lucky ring infused drop with decent stats.

vials (tier 1) still drop as far as level 30
globs (tier 2) seem to start dropping at 35
shards(teir 3) unknown?

the text on the item in game says they should be
1-9 teir
11-20 teir 2
20+ teir 3

which makes sense because people start to need (infused) rings pretty early

Windsagio.1340:

I think you’re working backwards from a narrative you’ve already decided on. There’s really nowhere to go with the discussion from there.

no, im basing this on experience an evidence in the game.
Only one facet is unproven, thats the data on whats in what chest,

5 daily chests for core before
4 daily chests for core now
5 daily chests available for Hot now

less earning in fractals now
More earning in fractals before

lower difficulty in fractals at scale X now

even ignoring the unknowns, the raw numbers currently objectively reflect devaluing of core content, with hot content

Windsagio.1340:

EDIT: This is directed @AVHero

dude’s mad the guy in healing made him fail. It’s a classic example of how ‘zerk meta’ people get in trouble, and that’s the thrust of my post.

Raging at others for failure is a classic ugly symptom. In addition, blaming build on failure on what’s honestly pretty easy content is even classicer.

This wasn’t a 65. Or even a 50.

not even sure the OP failed, sopunds like it was just taking too long?

Celtic Lady.3729:

Xbon.9086:

you have the ENTIRE core game for casual play….

This makes zero sense. Players of both persuasions are buying the expansion and looking to keep progressing. Therefore, there should be new content for both of them.

anet didnt realize one of the main reasons expansions add new races/starter level experiences.
That said, anet has serious problems creating content for their current races/fanbase, the best they can do is reskin races, which…. might not be a bad idea if executed well.

What it all comes back to, is content creation quality and quantity. Based on the last few years, i dont think you can expect a lot of content

AVHero.7382:

phys.7689:

AVHero.7382:

phys.7689:

yes, you ve reached the point where you have unreasonable expectations of people to whom you ve had virtually no communication with.

Yes, because expecting people who have run 39 of these things to know how the content works and how to optimize for it is unreasonable.

yes, because 39 levels has like two molten bosses in it. Also different people beat it in different ways. Some people healed through it, some people dps smashed it, some people duoed it.

problem is Speed clear is a relative term to most people. Also zero discussion of builds/formation. Its going to happen that at least some % of the time people will not be on the same page.

Notice, the Op was testing out his non optimized build as well, Everyone has dif goals/standards. Pugs are going to have these issues unlesss everything is really clear and controlled.
for example, now we have healers, but pugs dont have any means of knowing who is doing what roles. Before we had one accepted meta, but anet changed that up.

also keep in mind 39 fractals is the equivalent of being level 10 in the old system

You only heal through it if you’re bad at mechanics. I guess if your party advertisers “bad mechanics welcome” then yeah, you can accept that. I’m being facetious, but you get the point. You expect some sort of experience.

And no, introducing people with an emphasis on another role other than damage has not changed up the meta in any way so far. There is no new group content that requires healing. Future content might capitalize on these specs, but right now they aren’t as effective as someone focusing on DPS or boosting DPS in any of the old content. The meta hasn’t changed in favor of not optimizing damage. It has only shifted in allowing more effective damage dealers in. There is still only one accepted meta.

And in general, if you’re going to talk about a meta, then you’re talking from a point of discussion where you expect players to know a meta, and to know what is acceptable, which implies more experience than you’re letting on.

And 39=10 is flawed. The scaling difficulty did not get kitten to that extent. Sure, you’re only doing 1 fractal a level instead of 4, but the difficulty still scales, and instabilities are introduced at the same time.

EDIT: And to the comment above me, having 4 other people that can’t complete that content is not “on you.” That’s on them. I recently got stuck in a Thaumanova fractal where my teammates could not stay alive. I was the only one staying alive (and one other Mesmer, who left after several attempts) and I was the last one dead every time (save a couple of flubs). That was not on me. This was a 65? (somewhere around there, whichever is Thaumanova), so the boss had a lot of health, and that’s when knowing the fight takes priority over “burst it down before mechanics come into play.” We finally downed the fight because after several people leaving, we had a couple other people come in, and we didn’t win because they were competent, but because when they died they would toon swap and come back in the fight. They went through 3 and 4 characters between the 2 of them before we downed the boss, and I was the only person on my team that was alive the whole time.

level 40 no longer means you have done at least 160 fractals
it means you ve done 40.

Also i dont mean the meta has actually changed for this encounter, but i mean the overall meta/perception of what the systems are have changed. Wether its true or not, anet is actively telling people healing is a viable and important part of the game. Fractals is in part preparation for raids now, and healing is part of that.

also and this is the biggest one.
COMMUNICATION is the biggest problem, words dont mean the same things to different people, thats why we have to use so many of them to accurately exchange information AND have back and forth communication.

Short version is, at least 10-15% of the time you will get people who do not think “speed clear” means what you think it means. Thats not really any ones fault.

an effective communication might be

All DPS team Molten Duo Boss 40
target time: under 5 minute per island
have experience beating that time.

but thats a lot of words, and people these days think everyone knows what you mean via acronyms/contractions
lol idgf smh exp zerk namean sohf

Windsagio.1340:

phys.7689:

Windsagio.1340:

People really can’t tell the difference between ‘not gaining play value’ and ‘losing play value’, can they?

Well you are going to have to elaborate on what you mean, because people used to have things they no longer have.

lower dungeon incentives
less daily chests available
unknown (but seemingly lower) drop rates for old reward levels
less guild functions

far as i can see people lost value. Unless you meant something else

In order:
1) I presume you mean less gold drop. This isn’t a bought vs. didn’t buy thing.
2) More dailies sorted differently. You’re awarded both for ‘3 in a category’ and for ‘suggested fractal’
3) As you say yourself, you’re guessing. Non-liquid rewards are changed to the degree that it’s hard to judge. Psychology makes us assume its for the worst.
4) Oh really? Also wildly offtopic.

1)less incentives, specifically placed in other content, like fractals, which is less than you used to get
2) less dailies, there was 5 dailies available before, for every 10 levels. 4 of which could drop ascended boxes, now there is 4 dailies, 2 of which can drop ascended boxes
3) based on current data people are reporting, it isnt a large sample, but that doesnt mean its wrong yet. Based on current data there is a correlation.
Non liquid rewards are hard to put a finger on, but to go with that we have gold costs on things that formerly did not. Overall they removed value, which may be balanced by market values, but based on current data and drops, its not more money neven on the market.
4)Its on the topic of your post, which talks about not losing value. Guilds used to be able to make items they can no longer make, and the analogs of those items are HOT only now.

Lets be honest, its very clear what the strategy is here, make hot give you around 20% increase in value per time spent.
Combined with an ideaology that doesnt want to increase things (gold creep reward creep etc) that requires that people are pushed backwards in order to achieve your goal.
Its simple math.
an example
we want max value to be 100 gold per day
we want the latest expansion to be 20% better

as long as they want to cap max value, the only solution to the problem is to reduce the value of the previous release.

John smith has already said he favors stability over growth. You can argue whether its a good idea or not, but you cant really claim core values are being maintained.
4 dailies vs 5 is the simplest representation (get 5 back if you bought hot)
which illustrates the paradigm they are working with now

Dahkeus.8243:

vespers.1759:

NikeEU.7690:

The relevance is you’re either going to buy the expansion (and thus alleviating your problem faster the sooner you break down and do it) or you’re going to quit (and thus alleviating your problem the sooner you break down and do it) and regardless of which you opt to do, we will all be spared having to read more posts like this.

Oh i understood what you said, but it isn’t relevant to the fact that Anet has adopted kittenty tactics to sell their expansion. One would think if they were confident in the expansions content they wouldn’t need to try and force people to do it.

As for quitting obviously people have to buy expansions to enjoy a game throughout its life cycle… that’s pretty obvious since all new content will be in expansions. That being said, I think i have a right to call them out when they make dumb decisions in the hope of having them reversed, and you can feel free to not comment on threads you disagree with.

I may buy the expansion on sale if they add enough to make it worth it to me or i might not given how disgusted i am with the tactics they used in HoT. Quitting the game is obviously not a solution for someone that likes the game and wants to see it be better than it is, but i’m not going to bend over and stretch open my kitten to be penetrated as you clearly have if i disagree with the direction they’re taking the game.

Ok…you just don’t get it. They’re not trying to ‘force’ people to buy the expansion, but they’re also not going to try to pander to people who won’t support their game either. Heart of Thorns is released and as with every other MMO out there, the game will now be primarily balanced around customers who have purchased the expansion.

If ANet was trying to force players to upgrade, they’d just prevent people from logging in until they bought the expansion. THAT’s forcing a purchase.

You’re getting to play the base game completely for free on servers that are being supported by players who bought the expansion and are paying the bills. If ANet has to make a choice between making players like you happy and making the paying customers happy…guess who wins out.

the recurring bills are paid via microtransactions. aka the gem shop. They arent playing for free, they bought the product. Is this lamp in my house free, because i bought it 10 years ago? was my playstation free? How about my car, its free now huh?

and the reason people went microtransaction route, is because they figured out it makes more money on average than subscriptions, for the same product.

Anet gotta get paid, the question is how do you feel about that method all things considered. For some it may be a good deal, for others not really. It depends on the person.

Windsagio.1340:

People really can’t tell the difference between ‘not gaining play value’ and ‘losing play value’, can they?

Well you are going to have to elaborate on what you mean, because people used to have things they no longer have.

lower dungeon incentives
less daily chests available
unknown (but seemingly lower) drop rates for old reward levels
less guild functions

far as i can see people lost value. Unless you meant something else

Voluptus.3509:

Vocal minority who want it harder???

Totally untrue. And here’s why:

People are far, far more likely to post when they’re frustrated or angry than if they’re bored or feeling lackluster.

- For each person who posts screaming that things are too hard there are only ten more who don’t make the effort to post.

- But for each person who posts asking for things to be more complex and challenging there are hundreds who just shrugged their shoulders and wandered off to do something else because they were bored.

- For every complaint you hear about there are ten more you don’t.
- For every customer who says your performance was “good” there are a thousand more who don’t say it.
- For every person who takes the time to tell you you’re doing great there are about fifty more who are silent, but hopefully will tip!

I’d say 99 of 100 people who want more content that requires people to work together do NOT say anything. They just get bored with running around solo and turn the game off.

About half of the people who think things are too hard come to the forums and complain.

you basically just made up a scenario with no actual logic or data to support it.

Andred.1087:

SkiTz.4590:

There has to be goals to work towards, otherwise the population gets bored and leaves. Rewards are one of the types of goals ppl work towards…. why is that so hard for you to understand????

Riddle me this, young padawan, when you quit playing this game, who is going to give a flying kitten how many of these goals you achieved? Never mind, I’ll just tell you.. NOBODY!

You play a game to be entertained. There is no other reason. The only thing that will matter when all is said and done is whether or not you enjoyed it.

And to those of you who won’t spend a measly $50 on the expansion.. why the hell are you even still playing? I assume this is your first MMO, because you clearly have no idea how this works. Finish up your temper tantrums already and pony up, or just quit the game like you’ve probably threatened to do a hundred times already.

yeah except they sold the MMO on the premise that it was buy 2 play, and your purchase would not be purposefully devalued. (in content)

now its pretty clear, the plan is to force people to buy the latest expansion buy pushing down the last release in effectiveness, fixing issues created but placing solutions in expansions only.

But thats not really how they marketed the item. And its not consistent with most other MMOs.

most other MMOs section off new content, and they incentivize new content.
Gw2 plan is to blend in all content, and deincentivize old content till you reinvest.

The overall effect is similar, but the perspective as a player is fairly different.

Its actually closer to a treadmill than other models.
Other MMOs keep moving the furtheest you can go, gw2 actually pushes you back, and you have to walk to get where you were before.

AVHero.7382:

phys.7689:

yes, you ve reached the point where you have unreasonable expectations of people to whom you ve had virtually no communication with.

Yes, because expecting people who have run 39 of these things to know how the content works and how to optimize for it is unreasonable.

yes, because 39 levels has like two molten bosses in it. Also different people beat it in different ways. Some people healed through it, some people dps smashed it, some people duoed it.

problem is Speed clear is a relative term to most people. Also zero discussion of builds/formation. Its going to happen that at least some % of the time people will not be on the same page.

Notice, the Op was testing out his non optimized build as well, Everyone has dif goals/standards. Pugs are going to have these issues unlesss everything is really clear and controlled.
for example, now we have healers, but pugs dont have any means of knowing who is doing what roles. Before we had one accepted meta, but anet changed that up.

also keep in mind 39 fractals is the equivalent of being level 10 in the old system

yes, you ve reached the point where you have unreasonable expectations of people to whom you ve had virtually no communication with.

spoj.9672:

Yeah im struggling to gain relics now. Which shouldnt be right. Especially as there are now more things to spend relics on in game. So relics should remain just as abundant or even more abundant than before. :P

the 1800 for a backpack is now fairly ridiculous.

Roseblood.6793:

1) What exactly does each fractal mastery do for rewards
For rewards? There is the first one that gives you access to a specific merchant. It allows you to buy a piece of a collection as well.
The third mastery gives extra drops at the end of every fractal as well as from the boxes you get at the end.

2) What if any effect does personal fractal level have on rewards, which chests are effected.
As far as I know, the reward at the end of a fractal is determined by your current level. If you are a higher level than the fractal you are in, you will receive the reward you would get for the fractal’s level, not your own.

3)If personal level does effect chest drops, what are the rates currently set at.
All I can tell you is that the higher the level, the higher the drop rates. It’s waaaaay too early to be able to tell this.

4)What is supposed to be able to drop from each daily chest
There are 2 types of daily chests, the 3-run and the 1-run chests. The 3 run chests are the ones you get for completing 3 fractals within a specific range. These drop the best items (rings and ascended armor plus other stuff). The higher the level range, the better the drops.
The 1-run chests give less reward but also provide ways to get keys for the boxes you find at the end of every fractal. One of those matrices, for example, equals 2 keys.

5)what is supposed to be able to drop from fractal encryption boxes (core and mastery)
So I don’t know the non-mastery drops, but I take it they are less in value than the mastery ones. These boxes give junk items (all part of a collection) than you can sell for various amounts. They also drop the occasional materials (none too interesting though) and have a few rare drops such as golem minis (I love these!).
My suggestion is to stay away from buying keys and to stockpile on the Matrices you get from dailies and salvaging ascended rings. I’ve made quite a bit of money that way.

Hope I helped!
(I found a way to make fractals profitable now, but I still find them uninspiring )

i have a feeling some of these things changed.
For example i dont think the adept daily has a chance of ascended.
does the veteran daily have a chance of ascended still?
also, now that its tied to the chest, and not the daily level, does level actually increase rates? keep in mind they replaced personal reward level with personal fractal level.

seeing as how people with low levels can get the level 50 daily chest, will they have the same rates as people with higher personal levels?

a lot of information is missing with the new system, and they havent told us much

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Don’t know about any of that (did not buy HoT so far), but i think it’s fair to say that soon the complain threads about it being too grindy will make room to threads saying it’s too short. Which for me will be far bigger turn off. I’ll just wait and see (pulls out popcorn).

yes, it can be both.
Thats what happens if the content is not there to support the repetions.

for example if you have to walk 3 miles to the store, thats too grindy for most people.
if you only have 3 different stores, for the people who dont mind walking, or force themselves to do it, will still find the amount of interesting options too short.

point is, you cant simply decide people should spend 80 hours to do X, then put repetions in to make it take 80 hours.

The Solutions:

Sometimes going back is going forward.

1)Selectable traits/stats. At least for the begining. You shouldnt need to fully unlock all skills if its tied to mastery (longer term slower repetitive progression) to have access to a working charachter.
2) methods of aquisition for different play types:
explorer
instance runner/defeat tough monster
WvWer
2a)these should scale up from 1 player to a group. Personal progression should not require groups in this game. Though grouping can make it easier/faster

Suggestion for masteries:
start the exp curves lower. Overall you shouldnt have designed masteries such that the grind comes into play untill after you have your basic needs met. There are some flaws imo with how they interact with level design, and pacing, but thats probably too late to deal with now

There are some questions that really should have been answered with patch notes, that are unknown

1) What exactly does each fractal mastery do for rewards
2) What if any effect does personal fractal level have on rewards, which chests are effected.
3)If personal level does effect chest drops, what are the rates currently set at.
4)What is supposed to be able to drop from each daily chest
5)what is supposed to be able to drop from fractal encryption boxes (core and mastery)

i know that yall think people want to discover things, but this is core to understanding the system. If you do not provide people with info, it will be months before enough hard data can be organized. In that time many people may become more frustrated with your item design than need be. You also prevent useful feedback.

Evapor.6849:

-Why is pushing the core gw2 purchasers away and placing them as 2nd tier citizens considered healthy for the game?
-Why did a developer admit a while ago about the changes to dungeons that it was to purposefully give people no reason to ever do dungeons again and why did this change go through when some people only play the game for this content?
-Why was this reward ‘balancing’ just a flat out percent nerf across the board, something that must have took very little effort?
-Why does arah p4 give 1g?
-Why has so little time went into developing instanced content since launch?
-Why is chestfarming and openworld brainless zerging the best way of making money besides market manipulation?
-Why is removing existing content, rehashing it and bundling it with the expansion even allowed?
-Why is there no new fractals?
-Why are those gold skins so ugly and why didn’t we get new skins entirely instead of recolours?
-Why is the documentation of the changes to fractals so bad?

the documentation of fractal changes is abysmal. They tell you nothing, and they have changed the reward system completely.
I am also wondering if personal reward level matters any more, since i no longer see the word reward in it.

also id like to know the new rates on daily chests

im assuming its not the same since there are only 3 types of chest now. (before every 10 levels had different chances/ items)

BaconofPigs.1683:

It’s only been 3 days. If you haven’t unlocked all the masteries it’s not the end the world. Just play the game guys. You can finish it in a couple of months and that’s the idea. And yes some people have finished unlocked all core masteries and most of HoT masteries.

Thank you ANet for not making contents that can be done in one day (for the vast majority of the players).

main problem is they tied mastery progression to charachter progression.

Masteries is a specific area based pve longer term progression system. Its very natural that people would get upset having to do this to get charachter progression.

basically imagine the game started where you could only level up through map completion.
No crafting, wvw, random adventures, helping friends, going to different areas, dungeons.
Thats what they have effectively done with hero points tied to masteries.

Heres the problem with both specializations, and masteries.

They start off non functional, in an endgame place.

they should quickly give you basic traversal abilities to get you through the beginning areas. Also they should have designed the areas to not beat you in the head with where you cant go in the beginning. Metroid/vania games dont start you off looking at upgrades you cant get to, its hidden areas that you often only realize how to get to them after you obtain new skill 7.

as for specs, they should start you out, or give you one functional spec pretty quickly. You can then unlock extra stuff as you play, without feeling underpowered.

So, basically unlock 1minor 1 major 1 gm of your choice. 1 utility. Then let people pick.
I know people complained in the past of not having goals, and feeling like they have everything they needed to early, but back then you didnt have masteries and content gated based on that.

they also needed way more cosmetics. Those should have been some of the main goals. Get Jungle style armor, get the weapons designed by the hidden forge master, get the armor designed by cutest fashion frog.

problem with gating specs, is you are basically weakening yourself. When you start a new char you are as strong as you can be, or when your level cap goes up. for specs you are weaker, its not really horizontal progression at that point, its linear the whole way, until you are close to the end.

And people who have invested in this game, who are most of the adopters, are not really vertical progression minded

Cerpin.9152:

phys.7689:

Cerpin.9152:

I got 83% of my elite spec done just by superficially exploring all the maps…
Just saying.

It’s not that bad. Try playing the game.

by playing the game you mean

try exploring the map and repeating events.
also im guessing 50% of that was from previous tyria hero points.

Yes, I explored the maps and I got my previous points done in advance. So? Thats what it means “playing the game”.
Is “playing the game” to you: “I log in and I’m done” ?

There isn’t much repeating events required to get that far. Some heropoints are gated behind masteries. Big deal. Some more reason to play the game and get more involved in the new content.

before, playing the game was, dungeons, fractals, eotm wvw,

now its only map exploration.
what a contraction.

and not everyone likes event spam to progress

the key mistake is thinking thats what everyone who bought hot was buying it for.

like i said, if you like map exploration and repeating events, hot will be awesome.

If you didnt like that stuff, or dont like these specific maps, hot will be very not awesome

briggah.7910:

Can you start perma banning all these accounts that keep saying they have quit or are quitting? They are doing nothing but constantly posting negative stuff all over the forums. There was a thread about playing nice when HoT launched and I thought that meant on these forums as well..

Hey guys I’m sorry you quit.. Please do so and stop posting here.. K thanks bye

why would they? they hope they change their minds and give em money later

Cerpin.9152:

I got 83% of my elite spec done just by superficially exploring all the maps…
Just saying.

It’s not that bad. Try playing the game.

by playing the game you mean

try exploring the map and repeating events.
also im guessing 50% of that was from previous tyria hero points.

nottsgman.8206:

Krasex.4950:

@ Gaile Gray…
Maybe if you had to grind FOUR HUNNY hero points you wouldn’t be so sassy …

but she does have to ‘grind’ them, just like everyone else.

but she likes map exploration and events

Gaile Gray.6029:

DarcShriek.5829:

The mastery system as only been available for 15 hours. Your complaining about it being forever is just pure over dramatization. Congratulations on being awarded the William Shatner award for dramatic excellence.

First, thank you for saying, in your first sentence, my very thoughts: “It’s been less than 16 hours, and that’s ’forever?” Secondly, thanks for a smile. I’d love to see the statue that goes with that award.

people can see what they have to do and how it feels to do it.

Some people really dont like the required play.
You are only doing yourself and arenanet a disservice by dismissing player feedback.

Whatever you may personally think is a fair amount of time, a lot of players are feeling like it is not.

basically you created one path to success, and for some people that path is like having someone scream in their ear.

doesnt take 10 hours to know you dont like it.

I think its not that the content is horrible, its that some people simply dont prefer map exploration or simple event grinding.
How much do you think anyone who doesnt prefer that gameplay is going to be able to enjoy heart of thorns, being that it is essentially the only way to experince a decent portion of the content?

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

TheFantasticGman.9451:

Fractals are pretty much dead to me now. At least until Fractal Mastery is 100% completed. Even then probably still dead because I’m not at all ok with needing to spend coin to get my final rewards from Fractals.

What do you need to spend coin on to get your rewards? Do you mean tons of experience for the fractal mastery?

they give you treasure chests when you beat a fractal, but in order to open them you have to buy a key that costs 20 silver from the npc usually you get back 10.
the daily.
you can get 6 keys from dailies, but you get like 12 chests

basically, you spend gold to open chests hoping to make it back by random luck

Cuchullain.3104:

This game has become an ungodly grindfest from hell. I have 8 toons. I was going to make a revanent, but forget about that it will be hard enough to grind just one toon to full mastery and specializations. I don’t even know how to earn the experience for the masteries as I have yet to see an explanation in plain English anywhere. Obviously I can run around in the new maps for Maguuma masteries but do you have to grind PVE events in Tyria to get the Tyria masteries? I have 26 Tyria mastery points but now have to grind experience to use them? HTF does this work?

you need to do things that give exp in tyria.
events mostly. maybe the new map rewards give exp, i dunno
dungeon xp is nerfed, fractals never gave good exp before, not sure now.

Pink Ninja Man.4375:

SkiTz.4590:

No , the problem is the REAL fractal loot is LOCKED behind the Fractal Mastery (which requires HoT)…..

this is a the scenario – “haha I have HoT, I have access to the best fractal rewards , take that core game f2per scrub”…..

Ppl aren’t bent on getting gold, its the fact they TOOK AWAY from the core game….and LOCKED it behind HoT…..

also, you do realize gold is pretty much the only way to get anythign in this game right???? Outside of accountboud/soulbound drops, gold is the ideal way to get something like a new gemstore skin…..

Also, on a side note, how pathetic is it that anet couldn’t even AT LEAST add NEW fractal instances….. I mean my godness, years of the same crap. You think players should be happy with all this and just say “eh its ok anet, you guys are awesome, we don’t care how you treat us!!”

This is my point you are so bent on rewards, playing a game is reward enuf. If you really need those silly gem skins maybe pay a few dollars and buy them with money and support the game.

Are there advantages to buying the expansion, yes. Did they say they wern’t going to nerf the f2p aspects of the game, no. They have nerfed the f2p content because they would like to get ‘paid’ for delivering content to people, either though the purchase of an expansion (earn more gold and can get gems easier/faster) or micro-transactions (buying gems directly with money). They are giving away content free that use to cost $50. If fractals aren’t fun and only played for rewards then they shouldn’t be played.

problem is, they nerfed the buy to play aspects of the game

Behellagh.1468:

phys.7689:

Behellagh.1468:

I expected an 80% reduction.

It certainly not the “THEY REMOVED ALL THE GOLD” hysterical players like the one I got into a … discussion with about what the change would be. Insisted a dev confirmed it was all gone.

i thought it would be lower as well, but still pretty much kills dungeons

Which was their intent. Except for those who want to do the story or gather some badges if they don’t PvP. It’s not the broken ATM that too many players have become used to abusing.

they also destroyed fractals though, and thats content they supposedly want people to play.
i did 3 fractals which is basically the daily and i got like 30 silver some blues and greens and 5 large bones.
i guess you need fractal mastery to get anything of value from fractals now

Amaya.1483:

30~€ for a FREAKING amazing exp, yeah sure i asked for refund, right aftet i won a million dollar

heres what this expansion boils down to.

If you love exploring the jungle and doing a lot of events repeatedly its great

If you dont, its pretty bad, because most of the features require exploring the jungle, and doing a lot of events repeatedly

DeceiverX.8361:

Baclavaman.9054:

I m about to, the elite specs were the selling point for me, now they are behind a grind fest so yeah….

As I mentioned above, you can’t unless you decide to quit the game forever, as they disable your entire account if you do, until you buy HoT again.

yeah, i remember advising people to refund before it went live, because they would probably do that.

others told them to wait and see.

Yep kinda sad, but i guess its let the buyer beware. Its a shame they hid all these important mechanic changes, makes it seem like a cash grab