Guild Wars 2

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

if the mayority of the player base is holding leather and MCs as store of value, they have no ground to complain about high prices.

its not the people storing their value complaining, its the people who want to use tbe supply for goods.

yep, a vocal minority, while most of the players are fine keeping them

i have no data on the numbers on each side.

keep in mind the majority of the item bieng held is not neccesarily the majority of players.
1 item saving player may hold 10 times or more than a non item saver. I’m sure that you re capacity to store far outweighs the average player.

also id say the marjority is probably on neither side, many players arent at the stage where they need these things or store mass amounts

ThomasC.1056:

I think a market reasoning may work for leather : the supply is more or less identified as farming, and the demand relates to crafting costs. Every ascended armor needs a lot of it, so as the demande exceeds the supply…

Now, for mystic coins, I’m more mixed feelings about it. As far as I’m concerned, I’m sitting on little less than 1000 of those. Why so much ? Here’re some reasons :

• I could use them, but :
  • I’m not currently running after a legendary
  • I’m not really interested by the items you can get using them in the mystic forge.
• I could sell them but :
  • I’m positive that even if the supply is predictable, it’s a time investment, so I’m keeping them to save time, just in case I’d need them.
• I could turn them into gold. I do it from time to time, mainly to buy gems afterwards.

In a nutshell, I have no use for them right now, but I’m keeping them just in case something useful will pop. Then I’ll use them then, or turn them into gold (aka. sell them) according to my needs. In a sense, I’m using them as a store of value, but I’m also just storing them for an uncertain future usefulness, therefore using their intrinsic value.

My question is : how many people are doing like me ? Does ANet count my ~1000 mystic coins in the overall game stock ? Because that’d make a big shift between all the mystic coins stored just in case, and the amount traded between those who don’t care at all about them, and those who are craving for them.

most people are doing what you are doing, because its the most logical thing to do, unless you need gold right now, most materials hold their value better.

Wanze.8410:

if the mayority of the player base is holding leather and MCs as store of value, they have no ground to complain about high prices.

its not the people storing their value complaining, its the people who want to use tbe supply for goods.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

This argument suffers greatly by lumping mystic coins and leather into the same explanation. The two situations are drastically different.

The high price of mystic coins is partly a design choice: the supply is deliberately controlled to give players a secondary source of easy coin, if they don’t care about shinies. It does not limit players economically or practically; it only annoys people used to the previous low price or who think that they should be able to farm as many as they like. In short, it’s a matter of design or style preferences.

The leather situation is at least partly an issue of economics, but it too has aspects of preference. Should each type of primary mat be similar in market cost? Should all weights of armor be comparable in crafting costs? A lot of folks would argue: absolutely, they should — but that’s a matter of design & style, not economics.

tl;dr I can’t support a proposed solution based on a problem statement that misstates the problem.

this is irrelvant to his point. he isnt talking about why people want it cheap, he is talking about why people hold on to the item.

basically that the reason people dont put these items on sale, is because they outvalue gold in the long term.
if you leave the game with a bunch of materials, worth 100 gold, when you come back they will be worth more than 100 gold most likely.

basically he is saying if they dont want people holding items, they need to make better investments for people’s money.

guess guild wars gonna have to start selling stocks and bonds.

actually guild wars always required skills, just not in the open world. And your analysis that twitch and thinking are opposites is incorrect. You can negate some attacks, but they dont give you enough evasion to negate all attacks.

The instances in GW2 are not so much easier than HOT maps. Hot maps are actually more clear with their mechanics really. People just got carried, or someone simplifying their part in the plan. like tequatl, they came up with a system where a few people do all the work, and most people auto attack till they die. Fractals past a certain level also needed plans/skills on the level of HoT.

Also your theory about people not liking learning from punishing games is completely wrong. Have you hung out with any kids these days? have you looked at what they play on their phones/tablets? you know one of the most popular games is undertale? Teaching people by letting them fail is still going strong. its a game, a test of skill or ability or challenge, its not real life. dying in a game isnt the end of the world for most people who play games, 20 years ago, or today.

I’m not saying hot has no problems, but i think its hardness is over estimated. I think its mostly confirmation bias. People are told HoT is hard, you are going to fail because of HoT, not because of yourself, and when they fail they blame hot.

Id say a bigger problem with hot, than enemy difficulty, is how unapproachable the level design is when you have no masteries, combined with how difficult that makes it to get masteries by doing events, when you cant even figure out how to get to the events. Also hero points with enemies are designed for 2+ people so if you are soloing its a lot harder to do.

Miellyn.6847:

Bunter.3795:

The problem with Legendary Armor being locked behind raids is that this is not the case of a skin. This is the best armor in game. Some will argue that the stats are the same as ascended but the Legendary armor has functionality that ascended does not have and that is the ability to change stats and runes as needed. You cannot do that with ascended. Yes, you can change stats on ascended armor but the cost is prohibitive to do this “as you want” as the current price to change a full set of ascended is at least 91g52s12c (based on current TP buy now and using the cheapest t6 mat) This cost doesn’t include changing an air breather, backpack or the cost of the spirit shards or the cost of runes. Depending on the runes, it can easily add another 1-12g or more to the cost to change the stats as changing ascended destroys the rune. This can easily put the cost over 100g just to change stats once. The small raiding minority gets to do this for free? As many times as they want? This is what I have a problem with in the design of the Legendary Armor system as currently announced.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for locking skins behind content to get people to take part in the content but this goes far beyond a skin. This is a game mechanic that is now locked behind raids. If it was just a skin, very ugly as currently depicted, I wouldn’t have a problem, If I want the skin, I have to do the content.

People compare this to the gift of battle being locked behind a wvw reward track and to a point, I agree, but the big difference is that I can complete a wvw reward track on every character (no matter what their build) and I can do it solo. I don’t need to find 9 other people who are willing to teach me or let alone allow me to learn the raid. I don’t have to find 9 other people who play at the same time I do and want to do the raid at the time I want to do it. I can do that when I work on my gift of battle. I can jump in and work on it for 5 minutes or 5 hours WHEN I WANT TO, not when 9 other people want to do it.

In addition to locking the best armor behind raids, they have also insulted every single person who has played WvW and especially those that have played since launch. SPvP and Fractals have their Legendary Backpacks and have Ascended Armor Vendors which is ironic considering that SPvP doesn’t even need armor yet WvW doesn’t have any of those things. WvW has been in the game since launch and should have at least gotten a Legendary Backpack before Legendary Armor was added as a benefit to a small percentage of the overall game population. Instead WvW gets “blast light fields”. The lack of respect to the WvW community by the game developers is truly appalling.

Like I said earlier, if you want to lock a skin behind content, go ahead, do so. If I want the skin, I’ll do the content but this goes far beyond a skin as the functionality is something of great value that only a small percentage of the population will get. A good example of this is both dungeon and fractal weapons/skins. The original dungeon weapons had weapons that were not better than anything crafted and if you wanted the look or ease in obtaining that stat combo, you did that content. A CoF zerker greatsword functioned no different than any other zerker greatsword whether it was a drop, crafted, whatever. The only difference was the look and ease of obtaining it. This is not the case with Legendary Armor. It is the only armor that functions like it does and is locked behind raids. This should not be locked behind content designed and implemented for a small percentage of the game population.

The main problem with your argumentation is that legendary armor wouldn’t be in the game at all without raids.

You can change your stats around 20 times with the cost of the legenary armor who often do you change them?

legendary for every piece was requested long ago, almost since the game started. They mentioned that they were working on new legendary gear like before 2014? It was always known legendary armor was likely to happen, it was just a matter of when and where.

IndigoSundown.5419:

phys.7689:

IndigoSundown.5419:

phys.7689:

you are in fact correct, a lot of the game is designed for the trading post. I however still believe the trading post should have been designed for the game. The Trading post design sucks the fun out of the game …

It’s my hope that “sucks the fun out of the game” is a statement about your personal experience and not a more generalized assertion. I find that the TP enhances my enjoyment of the game. I play whatever content I like, then if I gain things I don’t want I can easily sell them. The gold gained allows me to get things I do want.

I believe that the design intent was more along the lines of creating various content in the hope that people enjoyed playing it, with the TP as a means to allow players to gain some rewards that might not be available in their preferred content. It’s an unfortunate side effect of that design that those who prefer to play specific content until it grants the random reward drop may feel that some rewards which can be gained via the TP do not fit their image of how the game should be. Also, it’s worth noting that a lot more rewards are available as drops in specific content than was the case at launch.

so you think they did not design 7200 silk for ascended because they had too much silk in the economy? Or the price for halloween costumes? Or you think that teir 2 legendaries really need that amount of wood, because they just designed it that way first?

Nope, they have said that before they come up with a item/reward they have to run it through the economy guys to decide what costs they want it to have.

The TP should be a means for people to trade value between various tasks, but it has taken its own life, and now almost every item is based decision of, how will this effect the TP? How can this balance some tp values? etc.

To make it clear, im not saying everything has to be rare drops, i am saying the item design exists to feed and balance the TP, not based of what is a good game play design or incentive.

thats why you often get some ridiculous numbers on how many widgets you need for almost anything.

Sure, the in-game economy is a factor. However, it is not the only or even the main factor. The main factor is real economy. MMO developers need to keep people busy “playing” the game. After all, whether the MMO developer charges a sub or has a virtual store, player longevity is where the money is.

I believe that ANet’s original intention was that fun was to be the main focus of GW2. I also believe they were naive in believing that all MMO player demographics care primarily about fun. Once substantial numbers of players set them straight, they modified the game so that it took people a lot longer to achieve reward goals. You may recall there was a major issue with lack of long-term goals shortly after launch.

The problem is, while many players require long-term goals, many others want short-term gratification. The developer can try to give both what they want. However, it’s inevitable that some things put in as long term goals will be desired by some people who want short-term gratification. Mystic coins (whether supply is “low” or costs are “high”) are not a problem for players who don’t care if it takes longer to make virtual gewgaw X.

making long term goals is part of game design, but the way they went about, is not based on game design. Halloween candy reqs was not based on how much candy a player could get playing halloween content, it was based on the extra candy in the economy.

7200 silk was based on the market at the time, not slowing down the process, whose speed was actually mostly controled by time locked globs of ectoplasm.

the design of elite items tends to be about doing the most easy mindless tasks repeatedly, mostly because the items they require are obtained that way.

this is because items are not designed in terms of rewarding game incentives, but rather as a means of balancing the economy. The TP is not where people trade for the percieved value of what they spent their time doing, but rather what the economy needs the value of various items to be.

for example, a long term goal in basketball might be winning a championship, video games that emulate this make you play 82 games, then win a tourney (playoffs). thats a long term goal, it involves doing the most entertaining thing the game has to offer. thats a long term reward built on the design of the game.

point is even if you have to add grind, how and where you add it matters, this game the grind often hinges on the Tp hitting its target values.

IndigoSundown.5419:

phys.7689:

you are in fact correct, a lot of the game is designed for the trading post. I however still believe the trading post should have been designed for the game. The Trading post design sucks the fun out of the game …

It’s my hope that “sucks the fun out of the game” is a statement about your personal experience and not a more generalized assertion. I find that the TP enhances my enjoyment of the game. I play whatever content I like, then if I gain things I don’t want I can easily sell them. The gold gained allows me to get things I do want.

I believe that the design intent was more along the lines of creating various content in the hope that people enjoyed playing it, with the TP as a means to allow players to gain some rewards that might not be available in their preferred content. It’s an unfortunate side effect of that design that those who prefer to play specific content until it grants the random reward drop may feel that some rewards which can be gained via the TP do not fit their image of how the game should be. Also, it’s worth noting that a lot more rewards are available as drops in specific content than was the case at launch.

so you think they did not design 7200 silk for ascended because they had too much silk in the economy? Or the price for halloween costumes? Or you think that teir 2 legendaries really need that amount of wood, because they just designed it that way first?

Nope, they have said that before they come up with a item/reward they have to run it through the economy guys to decide what costs they want it to have.

The TP should be a means for people to trade value between various tasks, but it has taken its own life, and now almost every item is based decision of, how will this effect the TP? How can this balance some tp values? etc.

To make it clear, im not saying everything has to be rare drops, i am saying the item design exists to feed and balance the TP, not based of what is a good game play design or incentive.

thats why you often get some ridiculous numbers on how many widgets you need for almost anything.

Mr Pin.6728:

Well to prove mastery and that you are a truly legendary player, a master of the game I could argue the last requirement should be to achieve diamond legend rank in WvW and place in the top 10 on the PvP leader boards. As long as we are dealing with exclusivity and kitten why stop half way? Lets make this armor truly exclusive and legendary, not the hey I can stand in a green circle or buy paths armor.

diamond legend rank means nothing in WvW but time spent. Do you really want more karma farming and node flipping arguments cause people trying to farm their legs?

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Feanor.2358:

Ashen.2907:

Feanor.2358:

Yes, and pleasing every customer is impossible.

Exactly. Which is why I said, “if,” regarding Anet’s desire to sell to customers who do not like aspects of the product. The customer expressing disatisfaction with an aspect of the product gives ANet the opportunity to make an informed decision about those aspects.

The problem is, if they do that they won’t be selling their product to other customers. And while the ones unhappy with HoT have an alternative – stick with core Tyria – these other customers don’t. I’m not a marketing specialist, but making HoT different seems a smart move to me.

Making HoT different may very well turn out to have been a smart move. This will depend on that difference having attracted more customers than it alienated.

See, I love HoT, but I don’t think it’s attracted more customers than it’s alienated. That’s why it had to be changed in the first place. If it had attracted more people than it alienate that big April patch last year would have never happened.

HoT attracted some people, but I’m pretty sure Anet didn’t expect the number of people who felt strongly against it.

For a very long time, long before HOT launched, I warned of the dangers of making the game feel more hard core. It attracts a certain type of player, who by their very nature puts off players like me.

Nothing I dislike more than to see the map explode on the rare times we fail an AB meta. The cursing, the yelling, the finger pointing, the name calling. Of course I didn’t like that at the marionette too and stopped doing it once I got my achievements.

This game, for me, was better when there were more helpful, happier people playing it.

It may suck when people rage, but they rage all the time regardless. I seen people raging at champion farming and there was nothing difficult about that.

not everyone is happy and helpful, thats just reality.

trying to create a magical land with no rage isnt really possible.

Fatalyz.7168:

phys.7689:

Fatalyz.7168:

phys.7689:

Fatalyz.7168:

Jski.6180:

Fatalyz.7168:

Jski.6180:

Fatalyz.7168:

Jski.6180:

There also this.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Envoy_Armor_I:_Experimental_Armor
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Envoy_Armor_II:_Refined_Armor

You need these to get legendary armor it looks like.

This is map completion in wvw for legendary weapons all over but much harder.

These collections and LI are the only thing raid related that you need for Legendary armor, everything else comes from somewhere else in the game, which is quite a lot. There is nothing wrong with this model.

Have you looked at these? This is a lot to do with raids and there more to come from the new LS eps.

Yes, I have done them. They are all that is needed from Raids. Both of those collections to obtain the precursor armor, and the legendary insights.

I even said that those collections and LI are the only thing raid related that you need for Legendary armor. That means that anything that comes from another part of the game, ie LS, is not from raids.

Every one else will just buy them because legendary armor promotes that type of play. Nothing to do with being skilled-full just pay that gold to ppl.

And that is certainly an option for people to partake in, pay for runs. If you don’t want to do it, but want the reward, pay someone to do it for you. Seems perfectly acceptable in a capitalist environment.

1st off the game is very far from a capitalist design.

2nd that is a crappy game design, because the solution is to not play the content, and incentivizes the most explotive farm currently available as the way to advance.

Which is why capitalism is a crappy design for this type of game. Capitalism focuses on the most efficient money making technique, where as adventure games, generally want to focus on adventure.

I’m not saying no one should sell or buy runs, but that is not part of the game design, it isnt a feasible answer for bringing legendaries to the non Raid population. Its a work around that some people are willing to do, not a feature.

Just like coming in to my house through the back window is not a feature of the house’s design, Nor would it be an excuse for poorly designed front door that only 5% of the population wants to go through.

There are some valid argumenets for why maybe having a requirement in raids makes a type of sense, the fact that people buy runs isnt really a strong contender there.

The difference between your back window example and buying runs. One is illegal (trespassing, breaking and entering, etc) the other has been allowed by the developers.

And on the poorly designed front door, if you are trying to keep out all but 5%, then that door achieved it’s goal.

its not illegal to come in through my own back window. And if a dude tries to sell me a house that i specifically cant get into the front door, but i can use the back window, im going to say that is a kittenty design for the house you are trying to sell me.

Point is, selling runs is not a game design choice, its a work around. its not illegal, but its not how developers expected people to access the content. Therefore people arguing that it is poor game design dont have to consider that element, because it is not part of the game design.

If you want to say raids being required for legendary armor is fine, there are some reasons, grey market selling of runs is not really one them.

While true that that may not be how developers intended for the armor to be obtained, it doesn’t nullify it as a valid way to obtain the armor. You may not agree with it, that is fine. The point being, Anet allows it, so it is a valid option to obtaining the gear, if you can’t raid to obtain it.

Its normal that if i want to get in my house, and the front door sucks, that i will use my back window. But that doesnt mean i wont demand they fix or redesign my front door.

Yes paying people is a way people can get around having to do raid, no that is not a good game design solution to the problem, and people who design the game can expect people to try get them to come up with a better game design.

They may already have plans for this, but dont expect people to be satisfied with an unsupported gamble, that involves not playing the game as intended.

Ashen.2907:

The trading post is an integral part of the game. Trading with other players is part of playing the game. Sure you can choose to skip. It, as I skip SPvP for example, but that does not mean that it is not part of the game.

If you choose to not get more MC, that is your choice.

I, personally, btw, have managed to get some of the most powerful rewards in the game via purely open world gameplay, without spending MC.

Ascended weapons and armor are the most powerful items in the game.

you are in fact correct, a lot of the game is designed for the trading post. I however still believe the trading post should have been designed for the game. The Trading post design sucks the fun out of the game and also slows down new item creation drastically.

Some examples? 7200 pieces of silk to make armor, cause trading post. how much ridiculous levels of candy was that halloween 2 recipe? Ridiculous amounts of materials for legendaries version 2, to clean up Trading Post inventory, and to hit an arbitrary gold value of legendaries at that time

Fatalyz.7168:

phys.7689:

Fatalyz.7168:

Jski.6180:

Fatalyz.7168:

Jski.6180:

Fatalyz.7168:

Jski.6180:

There also this.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Envoy_Armor_I:_Experimental_Armor
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Envoy_Armor_II:_Refined_Armor

You need these to get legendary armor it looks like.

This is map completion in wvw for legendary weapons all over but much harder.

These collections and LI are the only thing raid related that you need for Legendary armor, everything else comes from somewhere else in the game, which is quite a lot. There is nothing wrong with this model.

Have you looked at these? This is a lot to do with raids and there more to come from the new LS eps.

Yes, I have done them. They are all that is needed from Raids. Both of those collections to obtain the precursor armor, and the legendary insights.

I even said that those collections and LI are the only thing raid related that you need for Legendary armor. That means that anything that comes from another part of the game, ie LS, is not from raids.

Every one else will just buy them because legendary armor promotes that type of play. Nothing to do with being skilled-full just pay that gold to ppl.

And that is certainly an option for people to partake in, pay for runs. If you don’t want to do it, but want the reward, pay someone to do it for you. Seems perfectly acceptable in a capitalist environment.

1st off the game is very far from a capitalist design.

2nd that is a crappy game design, because the solution is to not play the content, and incentivizes the most explotive farm currently available as the way to advance.

Which is why capitalism is a crappy design for this type of game. Capitalism focuses on the most efficient money making technique, where as adventure games, generally want to focus on adventure.

I’m not saying no one should sell or buy runs, but that is not part of the game design, it isnt a feasible answer for bringing legendaries to the non Raid population. Its a work around that some people are willing to do, not a feature.

Just like coming in to my house through the back window is not a feature of the house’s design, Nor would it be an excuse for poorly designed front door that only 5% of the population wants to go through.

There are some valid argumenets for why maybe having a requirement in raids makes a type of sense, the fact that people buy runs isnt really a strong contender there.

The difference between your back window example and buying runs. One is illegal (trespassing, breaking and entering, etc) the other has been allowed by the developers.

And on the poorly designed front door, if you are trying to keep out all but 5%, then that door achieved it’s goal.

its not illegal to come in through my own back window. And if a dude tries to sell me a house that i specifically cant get into the front door, but i can use the back window, im going to say that is a kittenty design for the house you are trying to sell me.

Point is, selling runs is not a game design choice, its a work around. its not illegal, but its not how developers expected people to access the content. Therefore people arguing that it is poor game design dont have to consider that element, because it is not part of the game design.

If you want to say raids being required for legendary armor is fine, there are some reasons, grey market selling of runs is not really one them.

Fatalyz.7168:

Jski.6180:

Fatalyz.7168:

Jski.6180:

Fatalyz.7168:

Jski.6180:

There also this.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Envoy_Armor_I:_Experimental_Armor
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Envoy_Armor_II:_Refined_Armor

You need these to get legendary armor it looks like.

This is map completion in wvw for legendary weapons all over but much harder.

These collections and LI are the only thing raid related that you need for Legendary armor, everything else comes from somewhere else in the game, which is quite a lot. There is nothing wrong with this model.

Have you looked at these? This is a lot to do with raids and there more to come from the new LS eps.

Yes, I have done them. They are all that is needed from Raids. Both of those collections to obtain the precursor armor, and the legendary insights.

I even said that those collections and LI are the only thing raid related that you need for Legendary armor. That means that anything that comes from another part of the game, ie LS, is not from raids.

Every one else will just buy them because legendary armor promotes that type of play. Nothing to do with being skilled-full just pay that gold to ppl.

And that is certainly an option for people to partake in, pay for runs. If you don’t want to do it, but want the reward, pay someone to do it for you. Seems perfectly acceptable in a capitalist environment.

1st off the game is very far from a capitalist design.

2nd that is a crappy game design, because the solution is to not play the content, and incentivizes the most explotive farm currently available as the way to advance.

Which is why capitalism is a crappy design for this type of game. Capitalism focuses on the most efficient money making technique, where as adventure games, generally want to focus on adventure.

I’m not saying no one should sell or buy runs, but that is not part of the game design, it isnt a feasible answer for bringing legendaries to the non Raid population. Its a work around that some people are willing to do, not a feature.

Just like coming in to my house through the back window is not a feature of the house’s design, Nor would it be an excuse for poorly designed front door that only 5% of the population wants to go through.

There are some valid argumenets for why maybe having a requirement in raids makes a type of sense, the fact that people buy runs isnt really a strong contender there.

Feanor.2358:

Grind isn’t a problem. Grind is the only way to keep players in your game, because players can always exhaust content faster than you can produce it. Not to mention content creation is expensive as well as slow.

So the question can never be “will the game X involve grind or not”. The question is “what the game X will make you grind for”? Here, I feel GW2 is at its best – it makes you grind for fashion, rather than power. HoT doesn’t change that at all. You don’t want to grind? Fine, no problem. You can still play the game just as well.

just because something must be a part of your game doesnt mean it cant be overdone. We all have to eat to live, that doesnt mean what you eat, how often you eat, if you are forced to eat etc doesnt impact your enjoyment of your life.

grind must exist, does that mean i should design a game so that you must click an icon 80000 times before turning enemy drop into a god weapon?

the game design tied to the repetition, and what type of play you must repeat, and how much you must repeat it matters.

Astralporing.1957:

flog.3485:

Astralporing.1957:

flog.3485:

Amaimon.7823:

Astralporing.1957:

zealex.9410:

good think they mainly dont focus on raids then eh? ^^

If only that were true.

Good thing it is

Hmmm let’s see: 4 raid wing versus 5 LS updates and many fractal updates + 2 new fractals + caladbolg update. Yes good thing it is

So, a single side content meant for a small subgroup of players gets comparable rate of updates as everything else in this game together.
Yeah, they surely don’t focus on it at all [/sarcasm].

Comparable? What are you on about. Nine months separate wing 3 from wing 4 lol

You were the one that choose the content to compare, not me. Interesting how you changed your argument as soon as you were pointed out what your comparison means in terms of content importance.

it literally just a bunch of boss fights tuned for 10 players, its a small team. I agree they are efficient, and consistent, but that is not a high bar. Your real complaint should be, why cant anet deliver new content consistently that is as satisfying as raids appear to be for their constituency, with much greater resources.

i think they said raid team is 5 people? 5 people isnt even 5% of their staff.

Raid creators just know their audience and can give them the essence of what they want.

Astralporing.1957:

Randulf.7614:

miguelsil.6324:

Gaile Gray.6029:

penelopehannibal.8947:

Here’s a thought: How about waiting until it’s actually in the game before deciding whether we like something or not?

I think I detect a bit of an ironic voice in that comment. However, I agree with the advice because it just makes sense. (Sort of like looking at the pictures in a photograph menu isn’t the same as tasting the food?)

We know from the blog post that a static screenshot doesn’t show us all the elements incorporated into the legendary armor. I’m looking forward to you guys seeing it fully, after which it’ll be great if you share those impressions as well.

Here s a thought, how about making the new gear obtainable in EVERY game mode? There isnt even a WVW ascended armour vendor in that neglected game mode and now you r bringing new shinies for pve only. Even spvp got a decent way of getting ascended 2 seasons ago. And wvw we can go 600ranks and get AT MOST a pair of rimgs with fixed stats, not even able to select stats.

The hardest work has been making it animate. Now that is out of the way, I would expect it will open the door for more designs and across other modes. WvW feels prime for this, since it lacks a lot of reward incentives to bring new blood and it’s a signature part of the game.

Looking at the blog, the hardest work has been (as in case of every other armor set so far) making sure it doesn’t clip/clips as less as possible. Which isn’t going to get better for future problems at all.

i know maybe im crazy, but i have always felt the focus on clipping is highly overrated. I personally would rather have 10 time the armor/variety, than 1 armor with less clipping. But i guess i come from the old days when to not clip was to not exist, or be a statue.

Gaile Gray.6029:

penelopehannibal.8947:

Here’s a thought: How about waiting until it’s actually in the game before deciding whether we like something or not?

I think I detect a bit of an ironic voice in that comment. However, I agree with the advice because it just makes sense. (Sort of like looking at the pictures in a photograph menu isn’t the same as tasting the food?)

We know from the blog post that a static screenshot doesn’t show us all the elements incorporated into the legendary armor. I’m looking forward to you guys seeing it fully, after which it’ll be great if you share those impressions as well.

photographs and food involve different senses. its more like comparing a photograph to a video.

also even if the animations, effects and transitions are awesome, it would be cooler still if people liked the base.

it is of course going to be subjective, but i think what people are saying is that the basics here are off, even if the detail and bells an whistles are good.

but it is theoretically possible the finished product can make it transcend, but it is pretty rare.

Jski.6180:

@ Fatalyz.7168
Up to this point gw2 has been a very player friendly game somthing you can log in do something and log out as you want. Raids are on a comply different level or having to get ppl together get the right build and classes and get the right communication. This IS a big changes to gw2 old philosophy. By wanting more added to raids though rewards such as legendary armor is a major changes to gw2 nearly on the level of making gw2 into a different game altogether.

You can still hit player with more then one rock of the metor so… i am not sure what your talking about and there are a lot of skills that are persisting aoe that can hit with more then one. What was it about hitting NPC out side of raids (in wvw siege) that made it needed to be nerf?

Ghost thf where there form the start condi was just simply not that strong so it was never used a lot. Also it was short bow 4? that the ghost thf use to use. This game been out for a long time raids are just the “Johnny come lately” so its Anet new love affair. That kind of how anet been like from the start over fixing the old they simply try to cover problem with new things that add all new problems and raids add in a LOT of new problems.

You do compared to what gw2 use to be. Human are still human they rate and require linking gear and now dps meters something anet as been agned from the start (only now they soften on it).

I get that but we are talking about the current legendary armor and it is only in raids from the info we have. That is a problem its great that you feel that way but we NEED to make anet feel that way. By being soft on anet for putting things into raids only means you become part of the problem.

The GW2 community NEEDS to lock arms on this raids are not the only thing in gw2.

i dont think raids are the only thing in gw2, they ve added maps, and remember that raids really should have shipped with Hot. If you think of raids in that context they are just a small part of hot. They also have small raid team.

the raid team works because they are small, and have clear vision, with a relatively small goal. They seem like they are creating tons of content because its consistently released. It didnt take them years like fractals, or never again, like twilight path. Or forgotten like guild missions. Basically raids are series of boss battles, thats probably significantly less resources than the new maps, or apparently legendary implementation.

and gw2 has a tendency to try to force certain content. legendaries needed dungeons, wvw and map completion initially. So while raids are new, having to do x to get y isnt new. i think the biggest problem is that raids are substantially less accessible than any other content in gw. The 10 man requirement combined with a high skill cap basically guarantees that.

Fatalyz.7168:

Jski.6180:

It should be hard to get but not though exclusive content so every one can get it over time.

I disagree. Exclusive content is exactly where it belongs. More exclusivity in skins that are obtained is better overall.

Jski.6180:

There have been lose of builds in wvw divisibility to do nerf and buffs of skill becuse of them working one way or another in raids. Ghost thf (all though i hate this build but it still should be a chose) was nerf because ppl could solo a raid boss not because it was annoying. Staff ele was nerf because its metor was doing too much dmg vs big mobs (all though there still WH with wild fire and lighting orb so i am not sure what going on there). These where updates that destroy builds because these effect push the classes over the top in raids and raids only.

Meteor Shower should have been nerfed long ago, not just because of raids. Yes, raids brought it’s issues more into the light, but it was already OP.

Do you have any proof that ghost thief was nerfed because of raids, or is that just your assumption?

Also, if Ghost thief was nerfed because it could solo bosses, why hasn’t Druid been nerfed yet, as it is able to solo Cairn. Mesmers can solo VG (I’m pretty sure can be done, just not how long it would take).

Jski.6180:

There is a gear wall as in you need the best gear to hit the max / min of dps armor and healing checks of a boss fight in raids. You could even say there build and class walls in raids due to having to over specialized in a roll to even beat bosses. That not what GW2 was made to be and its not good to try to make ppl play that way for things like legendary armor. Even legendary weapons where a mostly play the way you wanted to all be it took a long time to do it.

Two things here:
1) You do not need the best gear in order to clear raids, they have been done in blues and greens. They are also low-manned pretty regularly (I can verify this as I have regularly low-manned bosses, 5-man VG etc), as well as possible to go past the enrage timer without a wipe (my guild once went about 3-5 minutes past the timer on Matt, but still killed him with only one other death). This indicates that the min/maxing is way more lax than you make it out to be, and that the true barrier to being able to clear raids, is simply mastering the mechanics of the fight.

2) You can still play the game the way that you want and earn Legendary armor, you might not be able to earn it the way you want to, but to say you can’t earn it from doing what you want is false. You can farm AB, Frac 40, etc til your heart is content, and take the money that you made, and buy it.

Jski.6180:

The thing about Legendary back pieces is that they added in blood stone fine where you can effetely have one with out too much work all be it weaker then a real legendary. I do think they need to add in more Legendary back pieces to the game out side of spvp but a back pieces is nothing compared to a wepon or a full armor set.

Backpieces are also, apparently, one of the easiest cosmetic items for them to add to the game. I’m not saying that other places don’t deserve to be able to have a Legendary armor reward with it, just not this one. Unfortunately it remains to be seen if Anet will do another set, and if so, will it remain Raid exclusive.

i’m pretty sure anet has said that buying runs is not officially supported, and in fact deterred, though they havent gone out their way to stop it. So claiming that as the mechanic designed to spread legendary to non raiders is not likely.

Harper.4173:

phys.7689:

Harper.4173:

@Balaeys.
Different play styles in this game mean something else.
You can play different modes and be rewarded – but if you’re bad at one mode you’re definitely going to not have fun in that mode.

The difference between casual and hardcore is the time investment and how much the game means to them.
If you have someone that can’t raid ( because of low skill) – if they’re hardcore enough about the game they can get the armor – they can buy the runs with gold.

The casual is the one that can’t get the armor because:
1. He doesn’t play the game enough to earn the gold to buy his runs.
2. He doesn’t play the game enough to be good and gear up and find people to actually do raids.
3. The game doesn’t matter to him enough that he would spend that much money getting gems to buy gold and buy his way to legendary armor.

That’s how I draw the line.
If you care enough about GW2 and Legendary armor – you can get it without much hassle. It will cost you money. Alternatively you can get it for free but it will cost you time.

That’s the difference between casual and hardcore.

some people are opposed to the very concept of buying raids/dungeons. Some people like to do content to get things, just not raids.

imo buying raids/dungeons feels like a trashy way of obtaining anything in a game. Which i admit is subjective, but its a bit myopic to say why are you complaining about game design decisons when you can pay me to play the game for you.

Well you can’t be opposed to everything now can you?
You’re opposed to spending the gold.
You’re opposed to spending the time.

How can you get something if you don’t work for it?

the point isnt that im opposed to spending time.

there are a lot of people opposed to spending gold, who want to spend time. But not time raiding.

they want to work, they dont want to raid. Which cant be too surprising since raiding is relatively new, and not what the game was sold on. In fact they claimed raids were to big, and 5 man was the optimal group structure.

i’m not even saying i want legendary armor specifically myself, but i can see why people are mad its locked to raiding and dont consider paying players to do it for them to be real gameplay.

Jski.6180:

phys.7689:

Jski.6180:

Gaile Gray.6029:

Sometimes when we merge, the thread gets a little wonky and it does not appear on the main index page. I’m posting here to “right that wrong” and get this back on the index.

Please note: We do not support polls or petitions on the forums, and ask that you not create threads about them. I have merged those threads into this main feedback thread, but it would be more productive for players to share their individual thoughts outside the parameters of any attempted poll or petition.

Thanks.

Ok i will start my feedback here then.

How they look is not important but how you get them is. If raids are the main way i think its putting to much reward on one game type. Its also taking away from ppl even getting it due to how excessive raids can be. GW2 is the different mmorpg that is for playing the way you want what the point of playing a game type if you do not enjoy it? Please stop making raids the most important thing in gw2 please make legendary armor obtainable in wvw spvp and open world pve.

If raids must have a “hay look at what i can do” make it skins only not a set of gear that you can get a lot of horizontal progression out of.

so what you are really saying is the stat switching functionality of legendary armor is more important than how it looks. and that every one should be able to work towards that without raids.

YES! Being able to switch combos on the fly for a full armor set and wepon at the same time is unbelievably strong in wvw and pve. I would take legendary armor as a long cloth or some of the worst looking skin if only i could get the ability to swap combos (because it add in horizontal progression of combo as they add in more content).

it should be relatively easy to create a legendary armor piece that has no skin (or is naked!) now that they have built the legendary functionality. Question is, do they want to? or do they want raids to have a functional benefit to make it feel worth it.

Harper.4173:

@Balaeys.
Different play styles in this game mean something else.
You can play different modes and be rewarded – but if you’re bad at one mode you’re definitely going to not have fun in that mode.

The difference between casual and hardcore is the time investment and how much the game means to them.
If you have someone that can’t raid ( because of low skill) – if they’re hardcore enough about the game they can get the armor – they can buy the runs with gold.

The casual is the one that can’t get the armor because:
1. He doesn’t play the game enough to earn the gold to buy his runs.
2. He doesn’t play the game enough to be good and gear up and find people to actually do raids.
3. The game doesn’t matter to him enough that he would spend that much money getting gems to buy gold and buy his way to legendary armor.

That’s how I draw the line.
If you care enough about GW2 and Legendary armor – you can get it without much hassle. It will cost you money. Alternatively you can get it for free but it will cost you time.

That’s the difference between casual and hardcore.

some people are opposed to the very concept of buying raids/dungeons. Some people like to do content to get things, just not raids.

imo buying raids/dungeons feels like a trashy way of obtaining anything in a game. Which i admit is subjective, but its a bit myopic to say why are you complaining about game design decisons when you can pay me to play the game for you.

Jski.6180:

Gaile Gray.6029:

Sometimes when we merge, the thread gets a little wonky and it does not appear on the main index page. I’m posting here to “right that wrong” and get this back on the index.

Please note: We do not support polls or petitions on the forums, and ask that you not create threads about them. I have merged those threads into this main feedback thread, but it would be more productive for players to share their individual thoughts outside the parameters of any attempted poll or petition.

Thanks.

Ok i will start my feedback here then.

How they look is not important but how you get them is. If raids are the main way i think its putting to much reward on one game type. Its also taking away from ppl even getting it due to how excessive raids can be. GW2 is the different mmorpg that is for playing the way you want what the point of playing a game type if you do not enjoy it? Please stop making raids the most important thing in gw2 please make legendary armor obtainable in wvw spvp and open world pve.

If raids must have a “hay look at what i can do” make it skins only not a set of gear that you can get a lot of horizontal progression out of.

so what you are really saying is the stat switching functionality of legendary armor is more important than how it looks. and that every one should be able to work towards that without raids.

Kyvrn.4209:

For the amount of time that went into this armor, I must say It sucks. Sorry. Apparently spikes make things look cool now.

I’d have been happier if they had just given us the base sets that you start out with when you make a new character. Rather than the 3 cactus suits we got.

At least the way the handled Stat changes and runes is good.

Thank the gods for transmutation charges. Gonna be making good use of those.

anet has always though spikes were elite since guild wars 1
https://wiki.guildwars.com/images/0/02/Assassin_Imperial_armor_m.jpg and the “elite version”
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Assassin_Elite_Imperial_armor_m.jpg

notice how there are more spikes that are bigger. Its not just anet though, most games feel special armor has to be more ornate and more flamboyant to justify its elite status, and a fair amount of users agree, or maybe they just like the prestige associated with them, who knows.

Dashingsteel.3410:

The AI might have improved but HoT as a whole is not one step above core gw2.

Some of the technical aspects with HoT may have evolved. Unfortunately, these things don’t always increase the fun factor. Cynical game decisions hamper HoT(excessive farming, gold sinks galore, Mario style adventures, mastery points that force you to play their way instead of yours, repackaging core content and putting it behind a paywall, multi-tiered maps designed to hide how little map space the expansion provided, very small number of weapons and armor skins, and changing guilds from influence in favor of another gold sink.

I dont defend every choice anet has made, and i m not even saying you should like HOT, but some of your ideas, just seem wrong to me.

Excessive farm: Hot is not more excessive farmy than tyria. Tyria is really farmy, really excessive, Ever heard of a champ train? Orr plinx farm? COE farm? i will say that guild wars turned out to be one of the grindiest games ever over all, but that is not unique to HOT, at least Hots farms are more varied and require you to pay attention more.

Mario style adventures, i assume you mean jumping on mushrooms, Thats a style choice you may not have liked, cant argue with your subjective opinion, but mechanically its no different than portals. It allowed for some interesting level design and enables gliders to be more useful, and id say overall gliding was pretty cool on an exploration level.

Not sure what you mean by mastery points making you play their way? you mean doing events? I mean, i know some people dont love events, but they were already the best way to play the game for 80 levels, which is a pretty long time. Perhaps the exp on masteries was too high, but it was in line with the exp in tyria. Keep in mind you dont need max masteries, many of the end abilities are pretty useless.

And the multi teired maps. I actually dont think they were designed that way to hide how small they are, they are actually pretty big. Maybe they over marketed that, but they were designed that way to make full use of the gliding mechanic, and make exploration a lot more in depth. The Hot maps are actually pretty well done for those who really enjoy exploration, even though i will say they are mostly annoying in the beginning. Which is probably one of the biggest flaws in Hot level design. You feel suffocated and frustrated when you dont have the needed masteries.

I will say the economy is pretty annoying in guild wars, its designed mostly to sustain itself rather than enhance gameplay, but thats not unique to HoT either, in fact id say the few rewards there are in hot, are less obnoxious to obtain than many of the higher Core rewards. A lot of the worst hot economy decisions were made to protect/alter the old economies.

Id say the biggest danger to guild wars is the numbers guys, they have a bad tendency to put ridiculous bad gameplay numbers on everything, sucking the fun out of most of their content. So yeah grind is a problem, but it was a problem with core tyria as well.

Ayrilana.1396:

OriOri.8724:

But gen2 legendaries require a stack of coins. And the only way to acquire them outside of buying them is to wait at least 5 months, but usually quite a bit longer since in my experience its really difficult to find a group that can complete the ley line anomaly any more. Which means that the only two options are to buy them or to literally sit on your ass and wait. Logging in for 1 minutes each day to collect the daily login rewards. There is no way to earn your coins. Absolutely no way to do so. There is no reward track you can complete to get mystic coins. There is no option to get ~20 mystic coins instead of clovers at the end of the daily login reward cycle. There is nothing. The only ways to acquire them are RNG or hope you get a group that can complete the ley line anomaly, but that is even time gated to 1 coin a day.

There is nothing you can do to get around this fact, nothing. It doesn’t have to be efficient, it doesn’t have to be fast, but we do need a way to acquire mystic coins that is not time gated nor reliant on RNG. So yes, I would still have a problem if MC were only 1 copper on the trading post, because there is no alternative to buying them. Waiting on your ass is not an alternative. What is legendary about just waiting for months on end for MC to pile up? Absolutely nothing. All I want is a way to go out and earn MC. Even something as simple as having reward tracks give out a handful of MC on par with how many clovers they give (as an either or option, you’d choose either clovers or coins) would be enough for me.

How about the T7 materials needed for those legendary weapons?
How about all of the other materials needed for those weapons?

Unless people are farming everything themselves, and do not buy anything off the TP, I don’t see complaints about buying mystic coins off the TP as a valid argument. If you can buy other things off the TP then you can buy the coins too.

As far as no reward tracks for mystic coins, it’s not needed. Out of those two stacks for the legendary weapons, one of them is for mystic clovers. Players can do the reward tracks for the clovers which reduces the number of coins that they need in half.

I doubt anyone would actually still have issues with how mystic coins are acquired if they were back to being near vendor cost. Nobody complained back then when they were cheap. How many other items, which are similar, are people not complaining about only because they’re still cheap?

Its sort of logical that people wouldnt complain about something when its cheap. They want to hunt it because they feel the price people are asking is so much that they would rather go out and get it somewhere else.

Lets say i buy some elder wood from the TP, I am choosing to pay that price, because the item’s cost is worth it to me based on what i have to do to get it. But mystic coins dont feel good to buy if the price is higher than you think its worth, because you have no choice, it FEELS like you are being robbed./extorted. Now if the price is so low that it doesnt require much thought, less people will be at that point.

basiaclly mystic coins were always sort of a bad idea, but by increasing the demand, and decreasing the amount earned over time, you have a really crazy time gate for players unless they pay TP prices, which has a drastically different value for different players. Some people earn 1000 gold a day, and 1 gold is a pittance.
Some earn 6 gold a day, and needing 500 mystic coins means they will be spending all of their income for 80 days for one small part of an item that supposed to be inspiring them to keep playing.

people defending the price by saying its at equilibrium with buyers and sellers are missing the point, this is a designed system.

the op isnt exactly saying its not worth the cost, they are claiming the system shouldnt be designed so that you have to either wait many moons or buy from the tp.

i must say, i am reminded getting most of the prestige items in gw2 is not a very joyful experience.
1000s of mystic coins? as exciting as paying rent.

Doam.8305:

mtpelion.4562:

ArenaNet has already confirmed that supply is outpacing demand. The issue is that you don’t want to wait or buy them.

Arena Net can say whatever they want it however it doesn’t mean we have to take it for face value.

There is no doubt that demand is much much higher than the actual supply because demand doesn’t necessarily mean the products that are currently on the market. ArenaNet keeps on adding more and more items that require more and more Mystic Coins without providing a proper source of supply to match. This causes the demand to maintain a level high enough to entice massive hoarding of the coins. People hoard the coins because at any moment Anet can release another infusion or weapon skin that requires hundreds of coins to create and they know they’ll never be able to easily recuperate those coins. They also nerfed the acquisition of Mystic Clovers and at a 30% drop for a single cover many of the coins are simply being flushed

This is a game of hoarding and this hoarding is fueled by the demand and expectation there are people right now hoarding items for the next S3 release. The supply of coins in this game are seiged up and the only way to unlock that gate to unleash a free flowing material is to add a reliable farming method. Such that a person can sell their stock and not worry to much about being short when anet adds another huge coin sink. Coins being as low as 25-35s would probably be a good price to get the flow but at these high prices it just promotes further hoarding.

one of the most annoying things that this game has become is an item hoarding economy with insane item inflation and item distribution.

spending a half hour managing inventory after a play session was never a good idea for me, and it keeps getting worse.

Ashen.2907:

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Again, remember our experiences with earlier MMO expansions. And I’ll say it . . . a lot of our new players are first-timers from World of Warcraft. Now compare the content released from those expansions to Heart of Thorns.

For me the argument would be that the price of a WoW expansion only allows you to play it for a month. In order to play that expansion for a year you would pay the $60 or so plus an additional $165 for a total of $225.

WoW expansion cost = $225.
GW2 expansion cost = $60.

I do not care for HoT, but the price seems pretty reasonable to me.

by that comparison, blade and soul expansion is zero dollars.

subscrptions give a different quality of service, just like most f2p give different than buy 2 play.

mostly you are measuring play time instead of content. the expansion doesnt beat witcher in terms of amount of content, even now with ls3 added. two months of another subscrption game would generally be cheaper, with a higher quality of play (cash shop items in game, complete access to all story, convience items ingame)
keep in mind, many didnt play hot for 12 months, even those who liked it.

if hot was a 60 dollar dlc in a solo game, is it worth it? for me, no. i like hot actually, but i only paid 35 dollars, closer to what i feel its value was.

April.2468:

I have recently come back after playing at launch but was busy in a certain other mmo and dropped the game, GW2 has always been installed though and kept updated as I knew I would go back when I was done with raiding etc in wow.

I finally leveled my ranger 80 and have been blown away by the game and sad I did not stick with the game originally, finished the main story and spent a fair bit on gems expanding inventory and buying living season 2 and I also bought HoT before I had finished around level 60, I was about to put down on a second game, my wife loves the original and for a non game player, she has banged some serious hours into the original, she just loves the world completion side of it and the hearts, in turn she has got my daughter interested as well and it has turned into a family affair on a evening which has been great.

My hardcore days are long left behind in wow and this is why I came back, the original game is brilliant for the casual solo player or just playing with my family and we have fun doing it which has been amazing, I cant thank Anet enough for this.

I decided to skip the living story season 2 to get my gliding sorted and then go back and do it, my initial impression of HoT is wtf as it really does flip the game and changes to something totally different.

HoT is just frustration and not fun, you just get on with it the best you can and grind it out, it forces you to change play style but not to one that’s enjoyable or fun and again its just more frustration after playing 80 levels a certain way, a lot of it is also based on the grouping of players which more often and not I find my self in overflow maps with not enough to complete the main events which again is just wasting precious play time, and creating boredom.

I would stick it out if the wife would carry on playing but she has no interest in HoT after seeing me play it and I guess we will all be moving on to a different game or to wow once she hits 80.

For me HoT just removes all the things I love about the original game, it seems rushed and badly thought out, it seems it was designed for the few and not the many.

Nothing in hot is as difficult as the harder missions in GW1 that yoru wife probably played. It really is a case of them dumbing down the original, and most of the harder content being something many players never try any more.
Hot is not harder than most of the vanilla dungeons in GW2 if you played them without people who have mastered them.

getting to 80 is super easy, and most of the challenging parts of story, and the open world were nerfed.

It would be nice if they had a more understandable progression system. But there was a long time and a lot content, some of which disappeared, that makes HOT not so crazy.

Also id say one big problem is that verdant brink is not well designed for when you have no masteries at all. At the time when the map is the most confusing, you have very few tools to navigate it well. Usually they would guide you better until you have the needed abilities, but anet kind of just throws you in there in general to explore.

Its actually pretty entertaining later on though, when you have some masteries and are more used to the enemies.

Xillllix.3485:

phys.7689:

Xillllix.3485:

Carighan.6758:

Well about the festivals: I love SAB. Absolutely love it. Wish we’d get more worlds.

Only… when it was back now, I totally didn’t play it. Think I’ve spent all of 30 minutes in there. Why? Because I know the current worlds, and there’s nothing different than before. At the very least (no new worlds, alright, annoying as that is) I’d have expected a new set of achievements pertaining to the HoT and LS3 in some way, or combining some of it into SAB.

But there’s… nothing. Though to be fair that’s something I’m saying a lot about GW2 recently and I’m playing it very little as a result. The game is stale. Not on a content level even, I dislike the new maps because of how throwaway they feel (so rote they’re boring before you even entered a new one), but on a game level.

Ofc there’s little hype. What would be there to hype? A new gemstore outfit? There’s no massive class-reworks to bring old players back with, no underlying combat reworks, no base change to how WvW works including ripping out the entire game mode, nothing exciting.

I’m pretty sure that they have been milking GW2 for a while and have a large part of their team making assets for the next project. There is no way a team that large would come out with a small expansion pack like HoT.

not too likely, and hot wasnt that small, if you compare it to arenanets content they have released.

From all info leaks it appears arena net has been struggling with long hours and tight deadlines since guild wars 2 started, some top people left to work on new games with better work life balance. They had to pull people from LS to work on HoT release. Its unlikely they were working on gw3 when hot was released.

It’s more likely that they were strained because of what I said. Do you really think that a team their side working full time for years with an engine and dev tools already finished could only come out with HoT? It’s about 15% of the full original game and that’s being generous. They would never have been able to make GW2 at that pace.

guild wars 2 was in development for 5 years, maybe longer if you consider that many of the ideas and concepts for gw2 were the things that were too big for eye of the north to handle.

Anet isnt super fast at developing any more.

I honestly think anets team is not as effecient as you believe them to be. I could be wrong, Also MMO sequels arent really that great an idea, they dont always inherit the playerbase easily.
lineage ii, everquest2, final fantasy ffxiv’s first release, Im not even sure they are intending to make a guild wars 3.

Perhaps they are working on a totally different IP/Game, but if they are, then what does a guild wars player care? It could be something that they have no interest in, and they would probably be salty to find out guild wars was sucking for a few years while they developed some unrelated project.

Xillllix.3485:

Carighan.6758:

Well about the festivals: I love SAB. Absolutely love it. Wish we’d get more worlds.

Only… when it was back now, I totally didn’t play it. Think I’ve spent all of 30 minutes in there. Why? Because I know the current worlds, and there’s nothing different than before. At the very least (no new worlds, alright, annoying as that is) I’d have expected a new set of achievements pertaining to the HoT and LS3 in some way, or combining some of it into SAB.

But there’s… nothing. Though to be fair that’s something I’m saying a lot about GW2 recently and I’m playing it very little as a result. The game is stale. Not on a content level even, I dislike the new maps because of how throwaway they feel (so rote they’re boring before you even entered a new one), but on a game level.

Ofc there’s little hype. What would be there to hype? A new gemstore outfit? There’s no massive class-reworks to bring old players back with, no underlying combat reworks, no base change to how WvW works including ripping out the entire game mode, nothing exciting.

I’m pretty sure that they have been milking GW2 for a while and have a large part of their team making assets for the next project. There is no way a team that large would come out with a small expansion pack like HoT.

not too likely, and hot wasnt that small, if you compare it to arenanets content they have released.

From all info leaks it appears arena net has been struggling with long hours and tight deadlines since guild wars 2 started, some top people left to work on new games with better work life balance. They had to pull people from LS to work on HoT release. Its unlikely they were working on gw3 when hot was released.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Ayrilana.1396:

https://us.battle.net/support/en/article/world-of-warcraft-starter-edition

While terrible games going F2P have garnered more attention in the headlines, I wouldn’t go as far as to assume that any game going F2P means that it’s not doing well.

Are you seriously arguing that giving your game away as opposed to selling it doesn’t mean you’re losing business and revenue? Even in your example that’s the case.

But, again regardless, that’s another topic for another thread.

actually f2p is the dominant model these days because it generates more income on average. A few games beat it, but most do better with f2p

virus.4370:

Hype and Communication is OK..but content draws people the more great content you have..the more people will cover it.?..if it wasn’t for gws1 ..i would have never got gws2 it wasn’t the hype,bloggers, and youtubers, it was all gws 1 that made me pick gws 2. gws 1 never hyped, it was all about content and story. glad to hear the the gws 1 leader Mike’O is back in control. maybe he can bring the epic content like we had in gws 1 to the gws 2 stage. i look forward to see what he can do with this team.

content sells games, but the best content on its own makes very little money. “Hype” or releasing plans, giving people things to anticipate makes a big difference.
Guild Wars was actually hyped, they were basically the new kid on the block with a buy to play MORPG, many sites covered them far more than most new morpgs, they also said from day one they would continually release new campaigns with new stories/zones/charachters just as big as the first. So as soon as you finished prophecies you were hyped to see what they would come up with next expansion.

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/guild-wars-nightfall-exclusive-profile-preview-the-paragon-and-the-dervish-professions/1100-6154159/

and

http://www.warcry.com/news/view/69816-Guild-Wars-VINDICATION-Eye-of-the-North-GW-2-Officially-Announced

look at that guild wars 2 hype train started before 4 months before eye of the north even came out.

so yeah, guild wars had hype, and it had content, you need both, but we are assuming that they are making content as we speak.

Skittish.4539:

zealex.9410:

Skittish.4539:

zealex.9410:

Einlanzer.1627:

Ardenwolfe.8590:

The bottom line is this: Hype is nice, but we want results. Given what happened with HoT before and after, silence is the better course. The next expansion will make or break Guild Wars 2 . . . and there’s no getting around that.

Why they put themselves in this position in the first place, especially given their earlier success with a different model, is still beyond me. But here we are . . . and time will tell if they survive it. Guild Wars 2 is the MMO I’ve played the longest, and even I can see they’re in trouble.

Hype isn’t going to save them, but an amazing expansion might.

I basically agree with this.

yeah i can already see a forum post from MO “next week the second expansion releases” ~and trailer drops at the same time~

And no a great expansion wont save them if nobody knows about it or expects it…

Are you saying that if players aren’t made aware of future content six months to a year in advance, they won’t play it when it arrives? How does that make sense?

If the existance or the arival of content in the near future isnt made aparent to ppl then why would these ppl go out of their way to search for it. Especially if it flat out drops with no reall buildup behind it.

A giant advertisement 1 week before an expansion could be an equal amount of making apparent as the same advertisement 6 months prior, with the added benefit of it being less likely to have been forgotten. I’m not sure how build up without content makes an expansion more profitable.

actually trying to do a mass advertisement one week before release, doesnt seem to be as effective as having anticipation and marketing over a long period with an increase in intensity close to release.

look at the commericially succesful movies, games, consoles, etc. Good marketing builds to a climax. I mean you can get lucky and some how go viral and come out ahead, but thats not something you can predict or plan.

Obtena.7952:

I can’t imagine what Anet would ‘hype’ at this time … the continuation of a living story that only current players would understand? Why would anyone not playing the game even care about that? Personally, i think there is very little gain in advertising a 5 year old game to new players that’s F2P that isn’t so obscure that MMO players have never heard of it to begin with.

Its also advertising for former players, and if your new content has no appeal for old players and new players you are going to keep contracting.

I guess you are saying guild wars days of growth and increased earnings are over? or are you saying that they should start promoting the game when they get some more new content that actually might appeal to people who arent playing right now?

Over Hype is better than underhype in any retail product.
if Everyone knows what you have to offer, you ll get some % of those people, and possibly kitten of some other %
if no one knows what you have to offer, you ll get some % of zero, which is zero.

Vayne.8563:

Carighan.6758:

Vayne.8563:

So it’s not just a matter of play time. That is there’s more to this game that differentiates it from other games, besides just it being casual.

Of course, but personal like/dislike isn’t something you can quantify for someone else. Hence that’s hardly a useful recommendation to the OP. For every person liking GW2 more than FF14 personally, there is probably someone for which it is the other way around.

Yes it’s a huge factor of which game you can get into, but it’s not useful to base advise on it.

And yet your comment of only get into it if you dont’ have time to play, while essentially recommending over this game two other MMOs that are subscription MMOs seems to bit weird to me.

What you said was if you have to play an MMO, and you’re not casual give this a pass, without even referring to the fact that it’s different from most MMOs, and it is.

That to me is sort of like saying I didn’t like it and other MMOs I liked better. But most other MMOs I’ve played are cut from a similar cloth, this one isn’t.

Surely that’s worth a mention.

you missed his point, it wasnt wow and ffxiv are better games, it was that the games maintenance and development has not improved the game much.
essentially he is saying is the overall product has great potential, but the continued service hasnt realized that potential in 4.5 years.

Well, here is the thing, Arenanet appears to have changed their business model to an expansion focused one.
Problem is they have not marketed themselves this way at all.

They believe in a say little policy, do a lot. The problem with that is, if your focus is on expansions, people need to know that and be getting hints constantly. Essentially you need to promote big content releases.

GW1 had an expansion model, but it was marketed as such. They always said they plan to release big campains, and generally they were satisfying.

As some one who doesnt play much anymore, and only looks for major news, or reasons to come back, my general feeling here is that nothing major is going on in gw2, and nothing major is on the horizon. This may be false, but its what i get with cursory looks periodically.

It goes like this,
hey, whats going on in gw2 these days?
looks at website, oh they are still promoting hot. Hmm apparently they did a few LS releases.
(I will tell you LS releases do nothing for me, my memory of LS releases has generally been that they release a small bit of content too slowly, and not really worth coming back for, once you have left)

then i look at the forums to see any tidbits on whats coming ahead or the things they added. There is usually few posts on new content of import, some remixes and reworks of old stuff, slightly interesting, but not enough to overcome the inertia of jumping back in.

This type of marketing cant work if you want people to get down with an expansion, people have to aware that something new, big and exciting is coming. they have to plan for it, and anticipate it. Right now, whether its true or not, from a casual observer, nothing is on the horizon, and the game hasnt evolved much since i stopped 8 months ago.

As some have said, its unrewarding because they didnt design that many rewarding systems. They also are not very creative when it comes to rewards. The thinking and reasoning of the item developers often falls into a number system mentality, but their over all design philosophy is at odds with simply increasing the numbers.

End result is you get 100000s of items needed for a minute progression.

Also, the monetization strategies, and the trade system dominance also works against most of the possibilities for creative progression.

Cool things need to be sold for real money, And Big gains for achieving certain goals doesnt lend itself well to the massive marketplace with tons of players.

Sadly, it really is one of the least gratifying games, but increasing the powerlevel wouldnt do much to help. End game gear is not ungratifying because its not enough of a power boost, its ungratifying because the process of obtaining it is usually so tedious, that by the time you get it, its like taking off a burden instead of unlocking something new and cool.

Vayne.8563:

I’m almost 100% certain Guild Wars 1 had a rapid fall of as well four years after lauch, because, get this, it was a four year old game.

Now I’m pretty sure if you took every single MMO every made and looked at their numbers four years after launch you’d see similar falls.

The only thing maybe you’d find is that it took Guild Wars 2 far longer to drop after launch than most MMOs. That’s a success not a failure.

All your I told you so figures probably proves is that Anet was right all along.

most MMOs fail, but most MMOs never come close to gw2 initial hype/number/buyer confidence. So when you talk about most MMOs you are kind of comparing them to failures.
FFXI maintained less drop off and even total increases for like 7 years
WoW maintained less drop off overall for years
FFXIV is currently one year younger than gw2 and growing
Aion is still making money for them and its years older
lineage is the beast that never dies apparently.

there are a lot of successful games that have less drop off, which is indeed the goal of the people in the business.
I mean maybe the budget will get cut to be in line with your average throw away MMO, but gw2 was not invested in or built to be a throw away see if they like it MMO. They had a huge initial investment, and hype. It was in development for like 5 or 6 years. It has 260 person team, its goals shouldnt line up with champions online or black desert.

its an interesting analysis, and you probably have a bias, but the data does follow what you believe. however it is not the only possible explanation.

People who say you shouldnt be using this data to make those assumptions…, well you take what data you have and you try to make assumptions, it may be nice to have more data, but you really cannot get infinite data.

Psientist makes a valid point though, which boils down to this, it may be possible that they just arent as good at making content that the people who bought the initial game want, as they used to be with gw1.

Which is a real possibility, the initial game was created by the gw1 team, and the early gw2 team. The living world and after was created by a gw2 team, and hot by a sort of different gw2 team.

So perhaps, an even simpler answer is that they just werent as good at making content.
Many people say the game is improving in various ways, so its possible that the current, or future gw2 team may stabilize the curve.

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

Djinn.9245:

Sykper.6583:

I like someone’s statement before about it being paying for convenience. That’s extremely different than paying for an absolute advantage over your other players, and you certainly aren’t winning for it.

You don’t think it’s an advantage over other players if a one person can play for years without getting a Precursor and on his first day of playing another person can purchase gems with cash and purchase a Precursor? Or completely equip his character on the first day with Ascended gear (if you argue that Legendaries aren’t “winning”.)

I think original players have years to have built up their wealth and could afford a precursor even if they’re relatively casual.

I think new players are horribly far behind. Giving new players a way to catch up is not only smart, but doesn’t break the game in any appreciable way.

I mean what percentage of new players are going to spend hundreds of dollars on a legendary? How does it affect my game if six more guys or ten more guys or one hundred more guys have a legendary.

The answer? It doesn’t affect my game at all.

it has an effect, its just that you dont care that much. many people actually require ascended for pugs, having ascended in wvw makes you stronger. having ascended will make you more likely to get credit per kills in open world trains.

people who say ascended has no effect a mathematically inaccurate.

fact is, a dude who is willing to pay can shortcut to equality with veterans, whereas, someome not willing to pay will spend 5-6 weeks catching up.

how long it takes is only a matter of degree.

you could literally grind long enough in maplestory to be top teir, by trading for cash shop money. my guess is it would take way longer than gw2, but thats a matter of degree.

But how does that really affect you. What someone else is doing.

Simply put WvW is PvP, and it should be more normalized. What’s the difference if a new person coming in can catch up? Why is that a bad thing? Don’t WvW players want people on their TEAM that are up to date.

Doesn’t it work the same for both teams.

WvW is not a 1 on 1 endeavor. SPvP is normalized. So what’s the difference if someone has an ascended weapon or an exotic. Even if it makes them more powerful it’s not relevant, because most people in WvW already have those weapons. You’re talking like it’s a bad thing that someone can jump into WvW and participate.

But they still are less powerful, because no matter how much money they spend, then can’t buy trinkets. And trinkets give you the biggest boost.

A single weapon or even two legendary weapons won’t make a bit of difference if the person they’re fighting has ascended trinkets.

This is just arguing to argue.

its an MMO, its actually about a shared world, and shared values. What other people do, and value is actually supposed to have an effect on you.

I can understand you saying that it doesnt bother you, but it isnt unreasonable for some one to say their enjoyment in an mmo is effected by others.

also, the stuff you are talking about in response is describing why you feel those issues are not a big deal, basically your defense is, its not that drastic, but the entire point of this thread is that it has p2w elements, although they are slight.

doesnt sound like you really disagree, you just think the word p2w is so heinous, it should only be mentioned in extreme cases.

i look it like this, the game is definately easier, and has a lot less grind, if you are willing to buy gold, thats objectively true.
The bigger question is how players feel about it, most dont mind it, at its current levels.
however, as the gap in expected power, and benefits of max gear change, people will begin to feel it more,

because the p2w is already built into the game, its just currently at an acceptable level for most players.

Vayne.8563:

Djinn.9245:

Sykper.6583:

I like someone’s statement before about it being paying for convenience. That’s extremely different than paying for an absolute advantage over your other players, and you certainly aren’t winning for it.

You don’t think it’s an advantage over other players if a one person can play for years without getting a Precursor and on his first day of playing another person can purchase gems with cash and purchase a Precursor? Or completely equip his character on the first day with Ascended gear (if you argue that Legendaries aren’t “winning”.)

I think original players have years to have built up their wealth and could afford a precursor even if they’re relatively casual.

I think new players are horribly far behind. Giving new players a way to catch up is not only smart, but doesn’t break the game in any appreciable way.

I mean what percentage of new players are going to spend hundreds of dollars on a legendary? How does it affect my game if six more guys or ten more guys or one hundred more guys have a legendary.

The answer? It doesn’t affect my game at all.

it has an effect, its just that you dont care that much. many people actually require ascended for pugs, having ascended in wvw makes you stronger. having ascended will make you more likely to get credit per kills in open world trains.

people who say ascended has no effect a mathematically inaccurate.

fact is, a dude who is willing to pay can shortcut to equality with veterans, whereas, someome not willing to pay will spend 5-6 weeks catching up.

how long it takes is only a matter of degree.

you could literally grind long enough in maplestory to be top teir, by trading for cash shop money. my guess is it would take way longer than gw2, but thats a matter of degree.

Linken.6345:

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

The reason this game is p2w is because the majority of end game can be bought. I hate spvp and play a bit of wvw. I can by a new account and first day be level 80 with full ascended armor and weapons and even legendary weapons. The only thing that would have to wait is jewelry and back piece and those would still be exotic. In many games you have to run raids or quest to get the best gear which can take time and much of it is bound. They created a system knowing that gems will be transferred into gold and everything will be bought from the TP. The TP is the same thing as having the items in the gem store it just takes an extra step to do it. By doing this, arenanet lets players think they control the prices. But the truth is, the prices on the TP are controlled by arenanet.

The thing is I do not have an issue with most of these practices. I do not mind arenanet being the gold seller so that the revenue goes to them rather than a shady third party. The problem most games that have real money auction houses/trading post is that the developers can not help but manipulate them to make more money. Which turns the game into a grind. Another issue that bad p2w games have is items like the watchwork mining pick. Items that can only be bought with gems that give exclusive in game bonus not accessible in game. Thankfully arenanet has not continued on that path.

So regardless of what anyone says or what their opinion of P2W is. My and many others opinion is that this game is p2w. It isn’t world of tanks bad but it is still there. As long as they stay away from the real bad practices of p2w I think gw2 will continue for a long time.

So by buying a new account paying a couple hundred of dollar to max out crafting and craft ascended/legendary.

What do you win exactly?
To me, you just killed any reason to play said game.

many people enjoy playing at max stats, the same reason people hack, bought game genie, and buy accounts.

basically you win by achieving all endgame goals easily.
may seem pointless to me, but many people prefer to buy these type of things, than to play/grind/wait for them.

this does diminish the percieved value of some goals, but its increasingly common

Mitch.4781:

I just don’t get why the collection side of things apparently takes so long. Like design a few icons, go to an existing NPC or take part in an existing event..like..there was nothing legendary about this journey at all. It was just pointless port and fetch. Then a hideous crafting sink like always…. When you see what some other devs do in similar time frames with much less manpower, makes you wonder wtf these 300 people do day in day out.

the first few take a little time, but new ones shouldnt really take that long, or require highly specialized devs.

most likely, they probably didnt like the implementation, and wanted to re iterate on it.
there will probably be new legendaries, or something virtually the same, but rebranded in the next expansion, which would explain why they took the legendary devs for the expansion, since item/collection development is their strong suit.

Sykper.6583:

This is the same stubborn mentality that brings you ‘GW2 is the worst grind MMO’.

It’s plausible that I am being bias with my subjective take on things, but I am willing to gamble my previous experience with games that have had actual grinds or P2W aspects to them that I can safely say GW2 is doing an excellent job making them nearly non-existent or absolutely unnecessary.

Until this game offers an item that you can only get through the gem store with gems, that is an outright upgrade over any pre-existing item you can normally get through playing the game, it will not be P2W.

I like someone’s statement before about it being paying for convenience. That’s extremely different than paying for an absolute advantage over your other players, and you certainly aren’t winning for it.

the marketing guys who came up with that rebranding term to make you feel more comfortable with their microtransactions will be happy you feel that way.

the way mmos were, there was pay to play term first, which was subscription models, then they had f2p, which often users would call p2w, because for most of them, there were signifigant advantages for paying players. many of these did not offer unique item power boosts. large exp boosters, item drop rate boosters, top teir weapons and armor, movement speed boosts, thats what p2w was. most items were available in game, just a lot harder to get, like a 1.5% drop from a world boss, or items that let you upgrade gear safely.

people always bring up maplestory, but im pretty sure they have trading system that lets you sell items for cash shop money, which would by some of you guys standards, negate p2w claims

Behellagh.1468:

And how is being floating resources any different than them no long actively working on new legendary weapons. In either case new legendary weapons aren’t being worked on.

And I’ve seen Brook’s Law in action. New people require training and additional oversight until they’ve been successfully integrated. That training and oversight comes from your experienced employees, the very ones you are trying to ease the workload off of. So if you are in a crunch in your department, staffing up during the crunch will, for a while at least reduce the department’s throughput. Now for how long is totally related to how quickly that new employee can adopt to “how things are done” since I’m assuming they at least are competent with most of the tool chain the department uses. These groups aren’t dozens of people but a handful so pulling one awayfrom their work to oversee a new hire, even if we are talking 20%, significantly impacts that group’s output.

So the best time to add personal is when you actually aren’t busy, however if reduced income is an issue, having more personal than you need now so you have enough when the crunch comes may not be fiduciarily responsible behavior.

the point is brooks law, is an example of pitfall in software development, not an inescapable equation. its also created by poor management, and mitigated by good management.

keep in mind brooks law has to do with being late. the issues you are talking about are temporary. the way to solve them is not to abandon the schedule, it is to adapt the schedule and use the proper resources.

point is, this isnt a forgone conclusion, or something they had no rational choice but to do. they basically decided, they dont want to spend the energy/time/money to meet their HOT obligations.
they feel that energy is better spent on the next project

oh yeah, and the floating was in response to your claim that the legendary team was spending too much time waiting on other people.

anyhow their entire content pipeline for legendaries was unecessarily involved, and not streamlined

Behellagh.1468:

phys.7689:

the premise that the game would die with 6 people working on legendaries is not based on anything.
Even MO never claimed the game will die without those devs working on the expansion.

also you miss his point, the legendaries are not simply some extra. they are part of the last product, you and the developers are acting like hot is over, but it hasnt been delivered as advertised.

his point is that anet is reneging on the last product they sold, supposedly to improve the next product they want to sell.

the only way your reasoning makes sense is if you assume
1) delivering on legendaries will bankrupt the company
2) if the company doesnt go bankrupt, they will later deliver on what they sold you at no new cos

neither of which is likely.
1) because even though earnings are down, a 1 million investment(hiring more developers) over the next 2 years, would not come close to breaking their backs
2) because last time they were in the same situation, they chose to develop legendaries as part of HOT, in order to enrich their new product, rather than include them in the old product they already sold.

from anet’s best for business side, the question is, is the loss of integrity going to negatively impact earnings more than the cost of hiring 6 additional devs for 2 years.

from the consumer side, its weather the loss of trust in the developer will change the percieved value of the product. or more simply, do you feel comfortable doing business with these guys.

i personally think the loss is greater than their money saved, especially outside of box sales.

It’s not that the game would die because of those six, it was that those six were being held up by other departments because of the workloads of those departments. So you could have six people twiddling their thumbs, blocked from finishing off any additional legendary weapons or you reassign them. Of course the ideal solution is to staff up those departments with the bottlenecks but doing that tends to make the bottleneck worse.

Brook’s Law – adding manpower to a late software project makes it later

that law is not a law, its a claim. its an oversimplification, it actually describes a situation of poor management, and can be avoided.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks%E2%80%99_law

its more about how you add manpower, and what type of systems/plans you have in place.

and if the six devs had little to do, you can use them as floating resources. making them do legendary work only as needed.

point is, its a choice, and it can be solved. they decided not to try