Guild Wars 2

Ellye.9123:

I do not think Healers will be flat out required.

I think the best balance point here is to make Healers desirable, but not obligatory.

It’s true that this also means that the “meta” crowd, who feels the need to do everything in the most optimal way, will in the end either require healer or shun healers (whichever case turns out to be most optimal), but there’s no way around: for those that want to play “optimal” there will always be a set of classes/roles that are “obligatory”.

You cannot make healers desirable without being obligatory. Healers are only useful if you take dmg, and will die without them. Even in trinity games, once people figure out ways to do content without healers, you never see them again. Because if you arent going to die, whats the advantage of a healer?

Ellye.9123:

phys.7689:

Its not that healers have no skills, its that they are forcing them down your throats and making you fail encounters unless you bring x job.

Do we have any source saying that Healers will be obligatory or are we just heavily extrapolating here?

Are we forgetting that every class, regardless of role, have at least 01 healing skill? And very often way more than this, with combos and such?

So yes, there will be unavoidable damage – but that doesn’t necessarily mean that we will need dedicated Healers.

It does means that characters might need to change their gear slightly so that they won’t be killed too quickly by said damage, so that they may heal. But that’s kinda of the point of the whole thing, after all.

Extrapolation is often accurate.
Based on what they said, and when they said it, its a slim chance that everyone can just go soldiers and be fine.
Pretty clear they expect healer to be a role. In fact its probably not the obly one. Expect that getting in raids will have even less freedom than zerker meta.
It will be gear+build+class

Ellye.9123:

In regards to “Trinity” / roles / etc:

Things I never wanted – and still do not want – from GW2:

• Rigid, obligatory, “Holy Trinity” that means that a party can’t do dungeons if they don’t have the exact needed roles.
• Rigid roles that mean that a “Healer” character should only ever Heal and never contribute to damage, or that a “Damage dealer” character should only ever maximize his DPS and never care about his survivability or some bit of healing, etc.

Things I wanted from GW2 since the beginning:

• Flexibility to make any class fulfill any role, even if some classes might be better suited for some than others.
• Flexibility to make groups with a variety of role combinations, so that we can, for example, play with our friends without restricting people based on what role they intend to play.
• Necessity to change your tactics and playstyle, even if slightly, based on the roles available to your group. If you’re doing content with a group full of damage dealers, you’d play it in a noticeably different way than if you’re doing the same content in a group that has a balance of damage, control and utility – but both would be viable.

So far, GW2 has been a bit of hits and misses in those regards, for me. It looks like HoTs might improve things.

Doesnt really matter if anyone can play healer if healer is required. Thats why people hate it in other games, thet hate the role (except for a few players) its not that they dont have a healer leveled, its that they dont want to play that way

evilunderling.9265:

Harper.4173:

The problem is the “you are now forced to take x damage regardless of skill level so the people who like to role play as healers feel wanted”.

1. Making some damage unavoidable doesn’t mean that skill isn’t rewarded or isn’t important. More skilled players, in better groups, with more experience of the content they’re doing will still take less damage, including from ‘unavoidable’ sources.
2. The trinity helps make things accessible by letting less-skilled players group with more-skilled players without anyone feeling like they’re carrying or being carried
3. It also helps provide groups with feedback on whether a fight is going well or poorly, beyond just “is it dead yet, are we dead yet?”
4. Good healers don’t just heal, they use all of the tools at their disposal, including their damage skills, aggro-generating capabilities, and more.

You totally missed his point. Its not that healers have no skills, its that they are forcing them down your throats and making you fail encounters unless you bring x job.

Basically its in a best case scenario pointless (you still have to dodge and block and move with healer covering for the unavoidable) worse case scenario they trivialize play and you dont have to pay as much attention to dealing with enemies.

So yeah basically you will be forced to take damage, so people can feel more valued as a healer.

Substance E.4852:

phys.7689:

Substance E.4852:

phys.7689:

They basically slapped the trinity on gw2

Trinity’s always been here. This is just the first time it’s ever been relevant.

You could always go cleric’s Guardian with a mace and shield. The only thing stopping you was that it had no use in pve (and limited to no use in pvp).

Stat’s and tactics that really only ever see use in WvW zerg combat are finally going to be utilized in other areas of the game.

Trinity isnt so much about the idea that you can build that way, but rather encounters that require you to use them

This is done mostly through unavoidable damage. The biggest tell was them saying you wont be able to avoid all damage any more.

Thats the thing that requires healers and makes mitigation required.

Except this isn’t remotely the same as requiring healers for all content.

Raids are touted as basically un-pug’able at release and are intended for guild groups of 10 people to do.

What guild out there has 10+ people but not one person who has a ranger at 80 or is willing to play healbot and has a stack of tomes? Probably not many and most of the guilds who are looking at Raiding have many more people.

Raids are clearly meant as a completely different kind of PvE experience from the rest of the game and one that isn’t going to spill over into the rest of the game until we get new fractals or new dungeons.

Uhh many players needed challenging content. That was a major selling point of the expansion.

Few people were asking for healers many were asking for challenge. So where do all those who wanted challenge but not trinity go?

IllegalChocolate.6938:

The theoretical HPS + situational burst healing has been pretty high for various professions for a while which only got better now that straight HPS boosting food was introduced with chinese new year. No one here ever heard of Skady Valda? and she only covers the guardian.

In current GW2 introducing a healer in a group along with strong dps is extremely capable in FotM 50 not just for reduced downtime and situation stability but overall TTCO, we’re talking sub 25-30 with your brain turned off with proper skill management.

I almost feel like the people that complain that there is no healing role don’t even play the game. There is one its just not mandatory which it shouldn’t be. The act of being a straight hard support/healer should be optional but still be extremely competitive, obviously this requires a huge change of various core objectives in instanced PvE content.

People have slowly started to recognized what it brings to the table, but there are still people who godwin the very subject making it very hard for the overall populace to understand its core mathematical capabilities in overall TTCO so that they may themselves decide whether to utilize its capabilities when they want to or for the sake of just doing so. How many people here still think vitality, toughness, and healing power are still “training wheel stats” in pve when now it has been officially stated that your stat makeup is part of your role?

The big news isnt the existence of healing, its that you will no longer be able to avoid all damage. That basically makes healers a requirement

Especially when you add they mentioned needing
Tanky players,
And longer fights you cant burn down

Yes trinity is the future of gw2. Unavoidable damage is the key.

That said they improved ele heals and gave revenant ventari stance for this healing purpose

Substance E.4852:

phys.7689:

They basically slapped the trinity on gw2

Trinity’s always been here. This is just the first time it’s ever been relevant.

You could always go cleric’s Guardian with a mace and shield. The only thing stopping you was that it had no use in pve (and limited to no use in pvp).

Stat’s and tactics that really only ever see use in WvW zerg combat are finally going to be utilized in other areas of the game.

Trinity isnt so much about the idea that you can build that way, but rather encounters that require you to use them

This is done mostly through unavoidable damage. The biggest tell was them saying you wont be able to avoid all damage any more.

Thats the thing that requires healers and makes mitigation required.

Odin of Ark.4860:

phys.7689:

Their Philosophy changed. They couldnt figure out how to build a raid without a trinity so they added a trinity

I’m going to bet these raids can still be completed without “healers/tanks” given time.

I doubt it. All they have to do is add unavoidable damage, then it becomes a mathematic equation of need x heals per second x mitigation.
With various dps checks.

The big thing wasnt so much the addition of a healer spec, but rather the talk of unavoidable damage, and them saying you will need tanks.

There may be exploits to get around it but they ll probably patch it

Their Philosophy changed. They couldnt figure out how to build a raid without a trinity so they added a trinity

Odin of Ark.4860:

Since there’s no taunt to make an enemy constantly attack you, there is no trinity.

They already said you will need tanks for raids. So by some means the tank will get most damage, or theyd be useless.
Whether they alter agro, enemy behavior or add fight specific mechanics for certain players to take more dmg, the result is the same.

They basically slapped the trinity on gw2

Walhalla.5473:

Odin of Ark.4860:

Since there’s no taunt to make an enemy constantly attack you, there is no trinity.

Also the Healers are doing more than just Heal, they can also do Damage buff Allies or control the Enemies.
Something that is impossible in a Holy Trinity Setting

Many trinity games have the support role buff and heal

lordkrall.7241:

ArenaNet have never been anti-trinity. They have been anti-forced holy trinity, which is rather different.

Healers have been in the game since release. They have simply made them better latety.

We know that you love the holy trinity and want ArenaNet to put it into the game, but this is not a step towards that. It is simply them going forward with what they have been doing since release.

They said you wont be able to avoid all damage. That means you need a healer. They also said you will need tanks some how.
Its trinity
Unavoidable damage
Healers
Tanks
Thats Trinity

Kirschsahne.2081:

phys.7689:

DiogoSilva.7089:

phys.7689:

Hahahahahahahahhaahah dedicated healer. Really glad i waited to prepurchase. Gw2 was killed by hot

GW2 endgame was killed by the zerker meta 3 years ago. HoT will revive it.

Sorry guaranteed damage and people given the job of healing your unavoidable damage is not adding anything to the game.

Its a forced dependency with no depth

It gives the game the most impotant thing back….. FANTASY gaming.

And there is nothing more deep than a fantasy lore actually played by fantasy characters… you know sword n boards.. healers.. archer etc…

The real shiny days of GW2 start today.

May i offer one of the Japanese hack n slay games where you have nothing more than a Great Sword and cartoonish characters without any story

Fantasy has nothing to do with unavoidable damage or healing in battle. Read a book

Kirschsahne.2081:

phys.7689:

Lol unavoidable dmg and healers haha gw2 is basically standard mmo now. Took 3 years but they basically gone back on all the selling points of the game

It’s absolutely the opposite.
Gw2 took all the selling points away from one of the best MMo ever GW1.
They did the right thing to save the franchise. Period

A-Net i am more than happy to come back to the game and spend tons of my money.
You are welcome

Hey everyone get hit repeatedly so i serve a purpose. Great design.

DiogoSilva.7089:

phys.7689:

Hahahahahahahahhaahah dedicated healer. Really glad i waited to prepurchase. Gw2 was killed by hot

GW2 endgame was killed by the zerker meta 3 years ago. HoT will revive it.

Sorry guaranteed damage and people given the job of healing your unavoidable damage is not adding anything to the game.

Its a forced dependency with no depth

Dependence on zerk was a problem but the flaw was a stat system designed around simulation play. So instead of fixing the stats they turn the game into simulation with unavoidable damage and dependency on healers

DiogoSilva.7089:

phys.7689:

Hahahahahahahahhaahah dedicated healer. Really glad i waited to prepurchase. Gw2 was killed by hot

GW2 endgame was killed by the zerker meta 3 years ago. HoT will revive it.

Sorry guaranteed damage and people given the job of healing your unavoidable damage is not adding anything to the game.

Its a forced dependency with no depth

Lol unavoidable dmg and healers haha gw2 is basically standard mmo now. Took 3 years but they basically gone back on all the selling points of the game

Hahahahahahahahhaahah dedicated healer. Really glad i waited to prepurchase. Gw2 was killed by hot

yeah this is the obvious way revealed should have worked, but it was a hastily added system put in place to stop thieves uptime of stealth, they then use the same effect for player skills, which is actually is not designed well into the concept of thief. It was ok before, but as it gets more common, its going to start really making stealth investment kinda lme for thieves

at the end of the day, it doesnt matter, there is no means of proving or disproving a system which behaves as one expects.

Whether your account is the victim of some sort of bad drop fate, or is actually representing real chances (if such a thing exists) is irrelevent. The data matches expected results, the why is not something they care about.

At the end of the day the system itself is to blame. Using Extreme chance as a reward mechanism is garbage, because it basically means the reward cannot by definition be considered a reward.

It comes down to a flawed reliance on probability based simulation in game design.
No random chance should be so low that people arent expected to have many/any success in 4000 hours of game play,

there are other ways to create the same levels of rarity without so low and unpredictabe a chance.

Essentially random is supposed to reduce boredom, and increase variation in response. But with chances like they currently had for precursors it does nothing at all. World drop precursors is just an arbitrary means of introducing precursors into the world based on a function of how much killing players are doing.

the truth is that changes after release have a smaller scope, and less resources. They will likely make number tweaks, but you wont see many larger scale changes like say revenant getting weapon swap, or the drastic change in functionality of the tempest. Things like new animations, etc basically become long term goals.

Just like in 3 years, many skills only just now got fixed, and some are still bugged. The company allots resources differently when building for an expansion than when doing live. One of the main reasons they said they did an expansion was they needed to make the type of changes that wouldnt fit into the scope periodic balance patches.

So yeah truth is, thief engineer and ranger probably wont get a lot of strong changes in these elite specs for some time if ever. If they were at the current stage months ago, they could alot resources to big changes like in mechanics, animations, etc. But now? its basically number tweaks only, no matter what type of feedback they get.

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

“Ease of gameplay” is the only part that mentions difficulty in some form, but it means a game that is easy to play/start but it can be hard to master, it doesn’t mean an easy/not challenging game. Casual gamer by DEFINITION doesn’t mean a player who lacks the physical ability to complete content, they CHOOSE NOT TO do it. Once you understand that players who don’t do challenging content choose not to do it and are not prevented by some form of mental disability you will get the point and move on.

And once you get that not choosing to do a content does not preclude not being able to do that content (and in fact quite often goes in pair with it) we might also get somewhere.

There are many people that practice running. Most of them will never reach the heights required to participate in any professional meet, no matter how hard they try. Of those, most will never be able to run at the Olympic level. And of those, most (if not all) will still be inferior to Usain Bolt. And there’s not much they will be able to do about it – an accident of birth assinged to them different skill floors and ceilings. Trying to pretend otherwise, and claim that it was just the effort they put into it is willingly ignoring reality.

In this game we have people at the wildly different levels of ability. That means that the same level of challenge will require different levels of effort from different players. If you will make it challenging for the best, so they really need to put an effort into it to succeed, then the effort required from average players will become astronomically high, and those with below average inborn skill floors will never be able to pass it.

On the other hand, if you make it that anyone will be able to complete the content, assuming they do put a lot of effort init, then it will become a cakewalk for the best.

If you’ll try to circumvent that problem by making the challenge lie in the realm of knowledge and experience, and not skill execution, it will become an easy farm once the solution will become known – because knowledge and experience can be shared, and do not need to be continuously maintained.

In an MMO raid, knowledge/practice will always trump base ability. Thats because the game has its own limitations on basic abilities.
maximum str is capped by stat
maximum speed is the same for everyone
maximum reaction time is limited by connection, and most likely anet caps it as well

The real “skill” is knowing how to deal with something, team work and execution.

also, why do you think that people who dont want to do everything in the game, should be entitled to get everything the game has to offer?
You buy the game because you enjoy MMOs, or guild wars, you didnt buy clothes for your charachter. If the game does not require you to play everything, why should you require the game to give you every possible reward?

Should they be required to put Zhaitan in your personal housing, because not everyone wants to do personal story, but some people want to be able to see all the enemies in the game?
If you dont want to beat twilight arbor, why should you be entitled to get the clothes from twilight arbor?
Purchase of the game does not unlock the wardrobe, it is expected that you must play the game to get things, so why does the same exact concept make you crazy in this situation?

edit:

not to mention they are not balancing it around everyone wearing beserker gear; that alone means that the room for error will be fairly large. Which means reaction based gameplay probably wont be the way most people will win, it will likely be about predictive behaviors and tactics.

AKA you can win by bringing more heals and tankier/supportive builds. Most likely if they add reactive elements, only 1-3 players will be required for those parts.

This doesnt mean you can just stand around, but rather once you know the encounter and follow instructions you can be useful and succeed, even with the minimum base level of ability.

Ohoni.6057:

No, that was NEVER EVER the point, that’s something you came up with just now. Your entire point was about players who can’t do the content, that includes players who THINK they can’t do it, those who can’t do it because they don’t want to put the effort (but are physically very capable of doing it) and the very small amount of players who are indeed physically ill and can’t do it no matter how many times they try.

No, MY point, at least through that line of discussion, was about players who couldn’t do the content, which is why I said “players who can’t do it,” rather than if I’d meant “players who don’t want to do it,” in which case I would have said “players who don’t want to do it.” Words are funny like that, sometimes they have meanings attached.

And don’t chalk it up to “a small number of people who are physically ill,” I’m not just talking about people with serious physical issues like MS, Parkinson’s, Arthritis, Carpal Tunnel, etc., I’m talking about visibly healthy people, who just do not have the level of dexterity or mental focus needed to perform at the level needed by a high skill game. If anyone could do it, everyone would. I really hate these condescending attitudes of “oh, everyone can do it, and if they don’t, then they just aren’t trying hard enough.” No. Have some respect for your fellow human beings and their limitations.

Now, people who don’t want to do it are an entirely different matter, and discussed elsewhere in the discussion, but I also believe that their desire not to do that sort of content is a worthwhile reason to not make them do it. But again, separate argument and not what we were discussing in that first exchange, as I made clear numerous times.

But I still don’t get it. If that was your actual initial argument, then why in the world are you saying YOUR freaking side is the majority of the population in the game? Are the players who are physically incapable of playing the game really the majority of players in this game?

Playing the game at the level currently required? Heavens no, most players are fine with that. But incapable of playing portions of the game if the difficult curve is ramped significantly? Then yeah, that would likely be the majority, by quite a bit. I mean, if they included Liadri-level personal challenges into the raid, that would exclude most of the players currently in the game. If they required you to play 4+ hours in a single go, that would likely exclude most of the players currently in the game (for a combination of health and logistical issues). We don’t know how much of a burden raids will place on the players, but it could very easily rise to the level that the majority of players would be incapable of shouldering that burden.

And about your remark on my life, I don’t need a life’s lesson from a spoiled rich brat who wants everything handed to them like in their actual real life. OK?

Lol, where did you ever get the impression that I was rich?

Yet you base your entire argument on how people would want a system like the one you are suggesting, and you have absolutely no base to prove that.

My basis is the population currently playing, and therefore likely comfortable with the game in its current state. I look at the population, not what individual members say, but what the players actually do, and think it’s reasonable to believe that they are content with content of the style that GW2 currently provides. I believe that the people who currently play the game, do so because it is NOT the sort of high pressure, high stakes game that raiding typically involves. If they did want that sort of game, they have plenty of options for it, so why would they be playing GW2 instead?

Again though, I welcome additional information, and if it happens to contradict my premise, then that’s fine.

Even if we look at the forums alone, i’ve not seen more then 3 or 4 people even remotely agree with you.

Yes, which is representative of nothing more than that, which is why we don’t use forum posts as a measure of anything. It’s worth noting, on the other hand, that there are also only 4-6 of your guys that actually disagree with me too, so if you are going to use forum numbers, keep in mind that they aren’t far apart, which is rather exceptional considering that this is a thread about raiding, and therefore you would expect to have overwhelming support of raids.

You cannot claim that people support you in any way, so don’t, argue from you and stop claiming you have large support.

I never claimed that I definitely do. I claimed that I believe that I do, and I do believe that. You don’t have to agree, and I never said that you do have to agree. If I’m wrong, then I’m wrong, but you telling me that I’m wrong without being able to back it up isn’t going to convince you, nor do I expect that me telling you I’m right is going to convince you that I am. That is not the point.

Sorry, the idea that everything obtainable in game must be obtainable by everyone with any type of disability is not feasible.
The game design is built on certain assumptions of normal ability. You cant design basketball around paraplegic, it just doesnt work. Just like the game wont run on windows 95 there are some minimum requirements to access the game.

Also that idea stems from your false idea that the game exists to give you cosmetic items. It does not. The purpose of items in game, is to enhance play.

Even with your line of thinking the same can be aaid of any content in the game. There are people who cannot do repetitive activities they find boring. Add.

And have you ever done a raid? Its not impossible for anyone with a minimum level of ability. It ends up being about paying attention and following instructions. Its not pro basketball, or grandmaster chess, its a play. For some of the members its simply about following instructions. Run now, stand close now, hit that switch. Use cc now.
Just by the virtue of being 10 man content, it cant even be the hardest thing (from a personal skill level) in the game. The minimum skill required will mostly be about coordination and knowledge.

The biggest obstacle will be finding groups of people to play and learn with. Anyone who has that and baseline abilities can succeed at it.

And if dont have that, you dont have it, the purchase of the box guarantees you experiences and a chance, not success or every possible reward. The same as buying a bicycle, a basketball or a chess set.

The very basis of your argument ia false. Just buying the game and attempting to play should not entitle you to all rewards. It never does in any game

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

The .223 pistol is available in Fallout as a quest reward, in Fallout 2 it is available from multiple locations but it’s no longer in the unique item list
The Alien Blaster is only available in the Alien Ship encounter in Fallout, in Fallout 2 it is no longer a unique item and it drops from multiple sources
The Red Ryder LE BB gun is available in a rare special encounter only, in Fallout 2 it is available from multiple locations but it is no longer a unique item

…yes, because the Fallout unique items list contains only items that are available from a single source. That’s the basis of selecting items for that list.

By asking for an unique item available from multiple sources, you are asking “give me an example of an item available from one source, that is available from multiple sources”. That’s why i said it is a “good requirement” to ask. You might as well have said that you will ignore anything that doesn’t support your thesis.

Still, i needed to supply only a single example to invalidate your point. I did it. You can, of course, continue to shift your goalposts however you wish.

maddoctor.2738:

I don’t care about how you could get the G.E.C.K or whatever. For your “way” to be used in a video game EVERY SINGLE REWARD must be available through multiple content.

You seem to have mixed your arguments somewhere. I wasn’t talking about Ohoni’s options being supported (or not) by old games (as i consider that whole argument foolish. If we followed that way of thinking, we’d still be living on trees). I was talking about your claim that making a reward available through two different avenues would always invalidate the harder one.

I have given you an example where it is not true. Example from a very classic game, of proven quality.

Again, you may continue to ignore it, but it doesn’t make your point any stronger.

actually he never said that.
He said that there are always some items in an rpg that have exclusive sources. He never claimed every item in the game needs unique sources or the game fails.

your claim that the game will be better is not backed up by your example because the game CLEARLY didnt abandon unique rewards, you cant claim its success being something like gekt if it also contained unique items. At best you can say having both can lead to a succesfful game, which has always been what most people in this thread are saying.

to prove your point, you d have to show a succesful rpg game with items which contained no uniquely rewarded items.

Now if you want to totally ignore the past, and be a trailblazer, you will have to show why it is better from an idea standpoint.

the key is a reward system has to correctly motivate play, in a well designed game. As i have said before, both gold and karma gives you an exact picture of the logical conclusion of the type of systems you guys want to implement, and they both have problems that need to be avoided in order to create a generally satisfying experience for certain things

Nike.2631:

maddoctor.2738:

Nike.2631:

Ultimately it’s about identity in our shared space. Mounts, minis, and titles all float around ‘you’ in your vicinity. Tonics completely replace ‘you’. Even weapons are something ‘you’ are holding. But clothes doth make the man and armor skins have the most direct aesthetic impact on ‘youness’.

That’s good and understandable/reasonable, at least you give some “room” for any kind of compromise by not dismissing everything exclusive.

I like to think I’m reasonable . Ohoni has never responded to my posts in this thread that I recall, so I suspect they’ve either blocked me in some fashion or they simply consider me a traitor to the cause for not being militant/radical enough .

It’s funny if you consider the fact that Armor is by far the worse option to “show off” because unlike weapons, minis or titles, it is affected by graphic settings. In a crowd you won’t be seen at all.

That’s not a coincidence… it’s a byproduct of the exact crux of the difference in the two use cases: People who want exclusive visual rewards want to be seen by others as determined, capable, and skillful. People who want accessible cosmetic rewards want to be able to see themselves as pretty, scary, or tastefully refined.

I think the question we were all arguing about on this thread for many pages has been wrong all along. The question “should we have exclusive rewards?” isn’t the right one, because I think everyone that ever posted here agreed to some form of exclusivity, be it titles, minis, outfits, armor or weapons.

The real questions are:
What kind of rewards are better suited as exclusives. and the follow up:
Are those exclusives enough to make the content desirable.

Making progress after 30 pages

Indeed. Now you’re asking interesting questions.

I’ve said my piece on the first – visual cues are important, but armor is in a different class from other flags. And just to clarify, if they were to offer access to hairstyles and faces as rewards, I’d be as protective of those as I am of armor.

The second question… wooo. That one’s a doozy. As a successful raid leader in multiple MMOs… I don’t play raids for rewards. Ok, maybe a little when there’s stat advancement on the line that’ll makes the next run more likely to succeed, but really, I play for the pleasure of winning. I’m happiest when I’m there for the gameplay, not the chest. Ok, I also like enough coin to cover the cost of expenses for the evening (travel, consumables). In general all the people I care to convince I won were either in the raid with me or know me well enough to believe me when I’m in the mood to brag or regale them with a story of how we had this awesome time where things went pear-shaped but we pulled it out anyway… And for really awesome runs, posting a good video is way more effective than any in-game reward.

Titles, armor, etc. are for showing off to strangers. Not a big priority to me, but I understand the impulse. I do want a good reward structure – because happy raiders gives me a bigger pool to draw team members from. I want raiders with a variety of outlooks eager to participate. (ooo, enlightened self-interest)

nah, in most of those cases in other games, i wanted it for myself. Im not really an external validation type. However, a reward that i can get doing something else diminishes my motivation to do specific tasks.

Also armor is not part of your charachters self imo, its a representation of what proffession/race they are, and what they achieved.

tatttos, hairstles, skin colors, those are the things that should be easy access always. But Armani suits, Military clothes, these things are about what you have earned (like armors)

That said as long as items are cool and compelling, it doesnt matter if they want to give those instead, but I wouldnt want to rule out clothes/armor for cosmetic progression rewards as an option.

maddoctor.2738:

Nike.2631:

Uh, check the title of the thread. I’m pretty sure raids are implicit in any on-topic discussion going on here.

So let me get this. You want just raids to have only exclusive titles as rewards but the rest of the game can be is always was with exclusive armor/weapon skins.

Why only raids?

hes saying titles in conjunction with other unique visual items. like minis/mounts/auras/animations whatever they can come up with

maddoctor.2738:

Nike.2631:

B) Titles aren’t enough… which is 100% unrelated to the rest of the sentence you tried to string on it. There are a LOT of rewards/visual cues other than armor skins that can be used along with titles to create an environment where you can show off your mastery of raids.

Then you agree that titles aren’t enough so more exclusive rewards should be put behind specific content. Good to know. You are once again mentioning raids, nobody said anything about raids, if titles are enough to show off as rewards from raids, then they should be enough for everything else in the game. But since you say they are not, we need different rewards on content, therefore we get exclusives.

he basically wants non armor based exclusive visual elements. He feels all armor should be attainable by all in many ways in his perfect world.

I personally think people would be just as upset if not moreso, if raids had unique visual effects that are less common than armor.
like auras, mounts or anything else visually cool, that you dont have 100 other options for.

eisberg.2379:

Mirta.5029:

Kniff.7150:

You pay 50$ and will get the initial expansion content and years of living world etc additions with it.

chances are Living World will work the same way Season 2 did. As in, you only get it for free, if you log in. So if anything in your life happens you have to pay again.

maddoctor.2738:

As an “old” player you will get -character- times a dye of your choice. Spend it wisely and you can have the price of HoT in no time.

everyone’s 3 year old character will eventually get it. Plus, you can’t sell it. It’s immediately account bound :/

Sarie.1630:

When you go to a sandwich shop and buy a sandwich, do you go back the next day, claim you’re a veteran, and demand a free sandwich?

depends on the seller brand, but every store has promotions. For example “collect 20 stickers by buying 20 sandwiches and get one free”, or “here’s a customer appreciation card, every time you shop here 10% of your payed sum goes to your card and you can use it either for discounts or for free sandwiches later”.

Sarie.1630:

We’ve had pretty decent free content for two years running. I say two years because this last year has been a bit of a drought after the final Living Story episode. If you’re played from release, for three years, and you don’t like that ArenaNet are wanting a bit of income for a much larger amount of content, then I think the line back has to be “sorry bud, sucks to be you.”

Depends on your play time and when you were active, having in mind that LS1 was very temporary and LS2 is buy to play if you didn’t log in.

People who would not have access to their computer during the living story season are going to be very very rare, practically negligible. So yes, with the expansion you can expect the free LS updates.

you are actually very wrong. Many people have priorities, vacations, business trip, or they just dont feel like ogging in etc.

Point is, if LS is part of what your paying for with the box, it should be obtained, whether you log in, or your dont.

Nike.2631:

phys.7689:

any visual indicator has aesthetic value. There will always be someone who wants it. Armor isnt really any different than a mount, in fact a great many people would be more upset by a mount than armor.
You are drawing an arbitrary line based on your own ideas about whats you personally think people should want.

Absolutely. I don’t pretend otherwise. I am describing a request for change that would please/satisfy me and whatever fraction of the playerbase is like me. Notice how I am NOT throwing around imaginary statistics like “We all want” or “The majority feel” or any of that silliness . (I do occasionally use the indefinite ‘some’.)

In THIS game armor has been behind specific content many times, this game always said that cosmetics was an endgame focus. They have ALWAYS said that armor/weapons would be how players showed mastery (original spvp, legendaries, dungeon armor) Anyone who thought this game was designed to have armor/weapons be a guarantee, was told the opposite by anet.

And in THIS game they’re tried time and again to make rewards available through multiple playmodes (not playstyles, modes) — specifically in regards to armor & weapons skins, replicating dungeon armor skins as sPvP rewards without replicating the dungeon rare crafting recipes for example. You don’t see a sustained hue and cry over sPvP not getting recipes, but skins? Skins matter .

dungeon armors in pvp is actually a step down. Its actually the concession made for spvp, who used to have all game armors earnable through that mode alone. The major motivator for putting in spvp wasnt about making dungeon arrmor more acessible, it was the fact that they needed to give them some items of value to fill out the reward tracks, and dungeon armor is an armor type that doesnt effect the economy. It was also a prestige type set, that is seen to have its value as a priceless item

And honestly it has failed at its goal. People are abusing spvp for dungeon progression, who have no desire to spvp.

And they really havent made everything obtainable by multiple means as the game evolved. A bunch of LS1 specific items are locked behind specific content, you saw it again in LS2. They added uniques to tequatl and wurm, halloween 2.

Nike.2631:

maddoctor.2738:

No you won’t be. If it’s legendary armor you will run the content multiple times to get more than 1 sets. If it’s a title you won’t. That’s why armor is more important than a title. Armor has way more replay value than a title.

Than one title sure. But you can just as easily create titles for 1st success, 6th success (equivalent to one armor set), 12th success (equivalent to two sets) and 18th success (equivalent to the almighty 3 full sets… ooo, aaah!).

If you think that just titles are enough motivation to play content in any video game then I have nothing to say on this other than we will get a dead game very soon if they ever did that.

Are you familiar with City of Heroes? ‘Cause man, let me tell you, Badge Hunting was a thing. A highly competitive thing. Like, makes the frenzy of people fighting for top AP’s in this game look like some sort of super tranquil meditation retreat. If you aren’t familiar with it, imagine being able to inspect another character, only what you are inspecting is their entire array of achievements in condensed icon form. When you decided to swing your junk in that game there was a whole stack of checkmarks that revealed exactly which, what, and how many of the raids you’d mastered… along with pretty much every other activity in the game. No alternate methods, 100% verifiable on the spot.

in this game, titles is not good enough to motivate people.
I also see that in city of heroes, titles could unlock costume pieces and special powers and better stats.

Sounds like in coh badges was a robust and varied system with multiple unique bonuses, with a game culture developed around it being one of the main types of progression. That wouldnt translate for this game without a large overhaul at best.

Nike.2631:

Kaamau.5341:

Ohoni, let me get this straight, forgive me if I’m misinterpreting, but the rest of the game is being devalued because a game mode is being introduced with its own unique value? Mind you, you can’t acquire any of the unique values any other game modes have from this specific game mode.

“My gold ring is worth less to me because my friend has gold earrings!”

This feels kind of selfish to me.

Actually that almost exactly what people who want exclusive rewards are saying.

“I value this visual flourish NOT because of its visual appeal but because it stands for my accomplishment. If other people have it for any other reason that reduces its value.”

…And I agree — if it’s only purpose is to be a marker of accomplishment, handing it out other ways reduces its value as a marker. See buying Legendaries. Despite their stated purpose in the game as “a testament to your mastery of all aspects of play” they are MEANINGLESS as a marker of game-wide expertise because you can buy them through RMT with zero play expertise.

But skins — armor skins in particular — also have aesthetic value and there are people who would treasure them because of what they look like rather than their scarcity. I’m all for scarce and visible rewards for raiders. I’d just rather that reward not be delivered in the form of armor skins. I’d like to see a giant riding-battle-dolyak you can mount up on using the same tech as the riding broom item (what? Its a Dolyak, they aren’t any faster than moving on foot…) that gets progressively more ornate armor as you clear tiers of accomplishments through repeatedly succeeding on the raids or over coming additional side-challenges. Something GENUINELY UNIQUE for raiders without boxing up and partitioning a set of armor skins solely for their use.

Seriously. Take the Battle-Dolyak. Ride it right thought the middle of Lion’s Arch to the ’ooo’s and ’ahhh’s of awestruck newbs. It’s awesome. There can be raid armor skins too, but make those work like dungeon skins with a means of access for sPvP players.

(and maybe WvW, which remains screwed out of just about all cosmetic rewards)

any visual indicator has aesthetic value. There will always be someone who wants it. Armor isnt really any different than a mount, in fact a great many people would be more upset by a mount than armor.
You are drawing an arbitrary line based on your own ideas about whats you personally think people should want.

In THIS game armor has been behind specific content many times, this game always said that cosmetics was an endgame focus. They have ALWAYS said that armor/weapons would be how players showed mastery (original spvp, legendaries, dungeon armor) Anyone who thought this game was designed to have armor/weapons be a guarantee, was told the opposite by anet.

Devata.6589:

Sykper.6583:

xarallei.4279:

Ohoni, just curious….what would you consider an “appropriate” alternative to get the reward exactly?

He’s already described it, an equivalent amount of time spent doing something else that attracts a player as opposed to one piece of content.

If they could put a scale on how many Bandit Crests could amount to how much time the average raider would spend in the Raid in question, that amount of crests would be the cost for the same Legendary Armor.

That’s his proposition, of course perhaps it doesn’t have to be Silverwastes, maybe it is Jumping Puzzles, or perhaps Dungeon runs. Anything else that makes it less exclusive than tying it strictly to a raid is something Ononi wants. That’s the only ‘solution’ he has suggested.

Other than the fact that the reward loses it’s real value (that comes with the content it is linked to) and it being a lesser more boring reward model that will result in grind.

There are also implementation-problems with it.

Let’s say they reward it for a raid and for a JP, then you still lock it out for anybody else.. So really the only way to make it accessible for everybody is to reward one currency for everything and then simply sell the item. Basically the way gold already functions for most items… the reason GW2’s reward model is such a big problem for the game.

The other problem is the balance.. You talk about the amount time spend grinding chest vs the amount spend in a raod. But it’s not a time thing.. Maybe somebody can do the raid in 1 hour and get the item.. but 1 hour of raiding (when it’s a good hard raid) cannot even closely be compared to 1 hour of grinding. So how would you put difficulty on a scale? and if you have that, how then to balance it against a brainless grind? The only way you sort of do it, is by only rewarding those items in raids and make them not account-bound so people can sell them.. What would be fine for some of the items, while other should be really excusive to the content simply for that value it’s add.

ohoni doesnt want other players to set the prices on items, so basically anet would have to perfectly balance and figure out the relative values before people actually play the content.

Nike.2631:

phys.7689:

Truth is it really boils down to wanting everything on ones own terms.

Absolutely. As long as you realize that’s true of EVERYONE participating in this discussion .

not really at all.
The raiders arent asking that every item be available through raids, The unique item lovers arent asking that every item be unique.
I probably wont do raids, i dont have 10 people, and in other games 10 people usually lowered entertainment for me. And managing 10 people? eck.
Still i believe that a unique reward for raids is logical, and good game design. Because i have seen what the other implementation achieves.

Everyone doesnt want to get everything on thier terms, most people accept that some things just come at a price they arent willing to pay, and they accept that as long as over all, things a fair, and they have enough for themselves, its ok if they cant get everything the way they want to get it.

One thing i dont get with ohoni, he understands not all content is designed for him, but doesnt understand not all items are designed for him, its the same exact principle. Id honestly be more upset that cool bosses, fights, and locations are forever out of my reach, than a specific armor skin.

Torolan.5816:

maddoctor.2738:

Torolan.5816:

So yes, I object to the idea that a significant portion of the playerbase can´t make it whatever they do, how often they try and should not even make it.

Setting aside the weird examples everyone gives, that’s how video game rewards work.

So how do you expect to have a significant player base for raids if you rule out significant portions of the players by lack of skill already? And why did you argue with me earlier in this thread with you stating that anybody can do it if he really tries and puts effort and training into it?

Call me old fashioned if you want, but this reeks indeed very much of elitism for me. Not unfounded elitism probably, but with an attitude I don´t want to be a part of.

i’d just like to point out that mad doctor and conski are incorrect. They conflate rarity, with difficulty, and while there is overlap, they are not always connected.
Choosing a static task as means of achieving rarity will generally fail, because people are better than they think they are. I believe anyone(normal person) can succeed at any raid that i have seen.
Raids are group endeavors, Not everyone has to be the greatest player. Not everyone has to be great at all types of things.

the point of content specific items is NOT rarity it is to encourage achievement and incentivize deep play.

The only way difficulty= rarity is if it is competitive, and only takes the top X players.

Nike.2631:

I think the underlying question at work is “can the particular type of reward that is armor skins please not be used for raids or not be exclusively accessible through raids?” Nothing any more elaborate than that. People who like to customize their appearance and/or collect skins do not closely correlate to the raiding outlook. There’s overlap, but they’re not at all the same.

Should raids have rewards? Yes, setting them up sucks and succeeding at them takes a specific skill set that likes to be recognized. They should have rewards. Possibly even unique rewards.

Does the reward have to be an armor skin to be desirable? No. Titles and Minis are also immediately visible in-game and verifiable ways of announcing “I’m an at least marginally competent raider.” Cosmetic items like infinite tonics of the raid’s boss or new pseudo-mounts like the riding broom could be used as flags for raid completion. There are things MUCH more visible than armor that could be used to proclaim your success.

If armors skins are amongst the raid rewards, do they have to be exclusive to raids? No. Like Dungeon skins, its not unreasonable to allow the other game modes a way to access armor and weapons skins while NOT giving an alternative route to related titles like “Dungeon Master”. If there are infinite raid boss tonics, they’d also be ONLY accessible through the raid. No one’s saying the Raiders shouldn’t have flags, only that armor skins are not something that needs to be restricted that way.

This isn’t an issue of skill requirement or reward vs. effort. The alternative methods of acquisition can be just as time consuming and just as demanding of skill as any raid — there’s no hand outs going on here. No “slippery slope of communism.” But if we are going to have rewards that signify ANY particular brand of excellence or persistence be it Raiding or 1,000 wins in Southsun Survival, do those reward have to be armor skins?

No. They really don’t.

your whole idea is wrong because your premise is that armor skins is somehow mechanically different from tonics, trophies, mounts and minis, in terms of people’s desire for them. Its not, they are all cosmetics and there are always people who want to get them. The fact that people want them is what make them appropriate rewards.

All you are really doing is saying these group of cosmetic people dont matter, because i personally think the only cosmetics that matter are armor skins. The question really is, is it ok to have cosmetic unique rewards for different types of gameplay. Thats the first question.
Ohoni is not comfortable with anything visual being specific. I brought up auras, color differences, even a small arbitray difference such as a star or number one, or different palette choice. Nothing is acceptable because he might want that one.

truth is it really boils down to wanting everything on ones own terms.

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

point is its a reward, by the very definition of the word, you are expected to do something of merit/difficulty to obtain it. And many rewards are made special by being something you can only get by doing something specific, that way they have no price, and are a pure representation of that achievement.

It’s the “I want everything handed to me” usually that disagree with this, they just can’t understand that there are different kinds of players who value rewards in a different way. While there is an easy way to cater to both crowds they just choose to ignore it.

in their defense its not so much i want everything handed to me, its more of a I want to everything, but i refuse to do anything but whatever i like to achieve it.

problem is, there does not exist such a perfect means for exchange of value in the world, and certainly not this game.

Astralporing.1957:

The players’ stated (quite clearly) wishes, were “we want a challenging content in this game”. I don’t see Ohoni disrespecting that.
Now, of course, it seems some players wanted something different that they asked for but weren’t brave enough (or truthful enough) to admit it. Until they spell clearly their real wishes however, i don’t need to respect those seriously.

Now, here is something to discuss, the reward issue aside, many people wanted challenging content, 10 man raids may not be what they were looking for. I am one of those people (of course i spelled that out back when they started CDIs on raids)
BUT then you go on to talk about it as if you can dismiss everyone because some people maybe werent clear.
thats illogical, an assumption made only so you can ignore peoples wishes by claiming they wanted something but didnt want to say it.

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

No, the raid isn’t stopping you from getting it at all, it is content that gives a reward when you complete it. If you can’t complete the raid you don’t get the reward.

Well, if i can’t complete a raid, then it means the raid did stop me, did it not?

The raid didn’t kick you out, or take away your legendary armor physically did it?

Let me know when it does that.

That’s not what “stopping” means. If something prevents a player from reaching an objective (in any way, wherher it is requiring a higher difficulty, than the player is capable of, greater time investment, or has some other requirement that the player is incapable of fulfilling) then it is stopping that player from obtaining the rewards.
Basically, you have said that already: “If you can’t complete a raid, you don’t get the rewards”. Well, if you can’t, you can’t. The raid has stopped you from obtaining the rewards.

Sykper.6583:

Ohoni.6057:

You shouldn’t disrespect one customer to please another. If they want to add raids, that’s fine, but don’t lock exclusive rewards behind them.

Then you are disrespecting the players’ wishes which the content was created for.

The players’ stated (quite clearly) wishes, were “we want a challenging content in this game”. I don’t see Ohoni disrespecting that.
Now, of course, it seems some players wanted something different that they asked for but weren’t brave enough (or truthful enough) to admit it. Until they spell clearly their real wishes however, i don’t need to respect those seriously.

you dont seem to understand that a reward is given in recognition of an achievement.

“something given or received in return or recompense for service, merit, hardship, etc. "

therefore raids cant be seen as an impediment to a reward. Without raids, they wouldnt be rewards, they would just be items.

you dont deserve rewards without doing something of merit.
Is winning a championship stopping you from getting an NBA ring?
Is writing great articles getting in the way of your pulitzer award?
Is beating the heavyweight champion getting in the way of obtaining this belt? https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2625/4153355324_914c1088ed.jpg
selling 500 thousand copies of your song getting in the way of your gold record?

point is its a reward, by the very definition of the word, you are expected to do something of merit/difficulty to obtain it. And many rewards are made special by being something you can only get by doing something specific, that way they have no price, and are a pure representation of that achievement.

would you complain if they made WvW champion gear with logos of your server and the season they won?
Why do you think everything in a virtual community world should be designed to obtained by you, in only the ways you want to obtain it? Its a game for many types of people, they all need/want different things. Why cant you let people who enjoy that type of play have a something that means something to them?

Astralporing.1957:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

There are only 4 ways of creating scarcity:

1) Putting it behind challenging content.

2) Putting it behind a huge grind wall.

3) Putting it behind insane RNG.

4) Making the item available for only a very limited time.

Now which one of those 4 options do you think most people find the most fun?

The one that lets them have the item, obviously. The skilled ones would pick 1, the farmers would pick 2, the lucky ones would pick 3, Malediktus would defend 4 to the death. Those that would not get the item would likely pick neither.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Which one of those 4 options do you think most people find fair and acceptable?

Depends whether you ask about “fair” or “acceptable”. Technically the most fair is 3, because everyone has an equal chance. It’s also not really acceptable, because that chance is way too low for most players’ tastes.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

I can tell you, the vast majority of players do find number 1 the most appealing options out of those four options.

Numbers, please? Or are you just guessing based on what you’d want to be an answer?

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Astralporing.1957:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Ohoni.6057:

Raiding is more demanding than other content, but what about that makes it more entitled to superior rewards?

You already answered your own question. Because it’s more demanding, that’s why it should have superior rewards.

No, it doesn’t automatically follow. Remember, it’s only more demanding because raiders asked for it to be so. You are basically saying, that it should have superior rewards, because you’d like it to have superior rewards.

It being more demanding doesn’t make it objectively a superior type of content. You may attach some kind of worth to it, but it’s just your personal preference, nothing more.

That’s not how it works.

Challenging content and better rewards go hand in hand. You can’t have one without the other.

Without valuable rewards, the challenging content wouldn’t be worth playing.

Lol, that’s not how it is. Challenge is its own reward. In the real world there are many people working on improving themselves not because there’s a reward for it but just because it makes them feel better about themselves, or because it’s fun.

Just a signle example – there are people that climb mountains. In case of the highest peaks, that generally requires spending a lot of money and effort. It is also dangerous (you can actually die, and many of the top climbers do end their careers that way) There are no rewards for it whatsoever.

Are you saying, that this is something that doesn’t exist? Or maybe you are ignoring them, because you know people like that are worth way more respect that someone that won’t spend any effort unless he gets rewarded?

LucosTheDutch.4819:

A challenging itself might be fun, but getting wiped 100 times on a raid boss is not really fun if there isn’t a grand prize waiting for you at the end.

That just means that improving yourself is not what you are after and not what you find fun. You are not in it for challenge. “Challenge” (and i use quotes intentionally) for you is just a means to a different end.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

I want epic rewards, I want that grand, limited, exclusive prize. But I want to earn it. I want to be challenged for it.

Then what you want isn’t the challenge. What you’re really after is an excuse to get better loot.

Only, that excuse is fake. You want the difficulty bar to be low enought that you, personally will be able to pass, and yet high enough to stop others. And if you’ll qualify, it won’t be because you were that good. It would be because your voice was loud enough to place that bar below your abilities.

Moreover, it won’t be actual difficulty that will set a limit. If the content would be truly difficult, i bet that 90% of the would be raiders would not be able to pass it. The real cutout will lie with numbers and time required.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

When I get that grand prize, I want to feel that I got it because I earned it, because I managed to overcome a difficult challenge, because I managed to become among the top 10% best players of the game. I want to have that grand prize because I earned it and I want others to not have it because they didn’t earn it.

Why 10%? Why not 20%, or 5%, or 1%? Is it because you think you are within the top 10% but not within 5%?

LucosTheDutch.4819:

A lot of people feel this way.

I am aware of that. It is however the way of thinking we should work on eliminating, not promoting.

mountain climbers get a unique reward, an experience and view that most never see, which cannot be duplicated in any way.

that said, i really dont think mountain climbing is a good example of game design, in fact its probably a pretty poorly designed game.

Mirta.5029:

Simzani.4318:

GW2 is not korean and is only about grind, even the dlc is only grind gated behind grind. But you play it.

at least you don’t have to to be competitive. You’re fairly confident that if you left the game for months you won’t be roflstomped in the open world by PvPers. Black Desert IS that kind of game though.

EDIT: for example this is a video on Black Desert! https://youtu.be/BmMQIiKukiE?t=11m26s All you do is grind levels and gear. There’s no dungeons, no raids, nothing besides open world PvP and killing the same things over and over and over again.

I would strongly encourage to look into Blayde and Soul instead, or any other upcomming MMO.

black desert isnt really designed to be a theme park MMO, it was actually designed with a heavier focus on the world/community. The focus was on players interactions. The oddest part is how well they designed combat.

Ohoni.6057:

You already answered your own question. Because it’s more demanding, that’s why it should have superior rewards.

No, again, that’s nonsense. It’s like saying that good Basketball players are owed high salaries by Divine Right. It’s exactly this sort of attitude that poisons the game when raiding becomes involved. “I raid, therefore I am entitled to better things.”

Those who receive great rewards in life are not because they have great skills, but because society values those skills, because those skills provide value to society. This cannot be applied to a game. If you raid every week, what benefit does that do me? Why should I care? Why should I reward you for that (or in this case, contribute to your reward)? And yes, any reward you get as a raider is paid for by your fellow players, because we each contribute to the success of the game, regardless of how we play. The fewer the people who actually receive the Legendary Armor, the more people paid for you to have it.

So why do those people owe you rewards? They don’t. It is a gift to you. Be grateful, not entitled, and don’t try to block others receiving the same gift.

You are conflating and confusing a lot of different types of design, like game design versus ecomomics, business, society.

However, it is actually better for basketball that the best players are paid a lot of money. Because that increases, and encourages depth in basketball. High potential wages encourages people to spend more time and energy mastering basketball.

the best players are always the most rewarded in all facets of basketball.
Ill take you to the very basics, the playground, the winners get to play more.
The winner gets to keep playing, while the loser has to sit down, the better you are, the more you can play.
the next step up, personal betting. The winners win the pot.
Status, the winners are seen as better by the community, and are given more respect and benefits. for example the best players usually have dibs on the best court in the park. They can also are allowed to use more resources, like getting 2 courts to themselves, to play full court.

local tournaments, the best players win the tournaments, these tournaments are often self funded. IE everyone puts in an entrance fee, and the winner gets the money/prizes.
why? because encouraging the best players enhances the game itself. It makes the time spent playing more worthwhile, and increases the highs and lows and emotions of the game.

so yeah, the fact that the best players are the most celebrated, does a lot to enhance the game, and enhance motivation to play.

but like i said you are looking at the wrong scope.
For talking about basketballs game design, you should look at the rewards WITHIN the game. Which in basketball is mostly about points and penalties.

so its not divine right, its the thing that will make basketball a better, more appealing, more worthwhile game.

Justine.6351:

phys.7689:

Justine.6351:

phys.7689:

Justine.6351:

Bubi.7942:

On the other hand, underwater is slow, you see less than before, the environment is pretty repetative.

With that said, I like the underwater aspect of the game, and it’s a shame that it’s being neglected.

How is gliding faster then swimming? Or you just mean feels slower?

As far as the repetitive deal, yeah they need interesting landscape for sure. Its not like humans have been building farms/towns/cities down there lols. Perhaps more concentrated maps will appear, when dealing with underwater dragon, for quagans, krait and those sea angel creatures.

Another bad thing is that there is no back-lore for underwater civilizations. Atleast not anything people currently care about. I suppose they would just be ghost towns.

I still want to see an Underwater borderland map. Atleast there we wouldn’t have to worry about “lore” or “ghosttown” problems.

Ofcoarse there is also the distance/substance you can see. That I can agree with as a problem. Just not enough contrast between the blue-grey and brown-grey colors.

people hated underwater combat when they had a huge lake in the middle.

underwater combat generally boils down to spamming projectiles for a longer period of time for many classes/situations

yes trying to melee fight in 3d is hard to negotiate against projectile users.
options:
-more pull skills on the spear
-inherent +% movespeed with spear
-larger attack area with spear
-more rush skills with spear
-more anti projectile skills on spear (some do exist already)
-better devastating melee attacks

Perhaps I should think up a list on changes to spear skills across the classes that will make running melee underwater more rewarding.

Oh and btw, gliding has NO combat mechanic. Not sure how not liking underwater combat makes gliding more likable.

im saying the reason they like gliding and not underwater, is because gliding doesnt have combat. Gliding is simply a more interesting(because its different, and faster) means of movement.

So in a way thats to say if anet didn’t bother with underwater combat and left swimming to exploration(poi,vistas,nodes,chests), finding currents(speedy travel) and added breath timer/“fall dmg” it might have not been so unfavored?

I can actually appreciate that. At same time is that to say aerial combat would not be welcome to the game in the future?

if the combat is designed around the movement design it might be good, the best flying combat games wouldnt have the type combat you see underwater.

and yeah i think people would like swimming better if it focused on interesting movements.

kolompi.1287:

We were never meant to glitch and exploit our way above level 50 anyway.

they reset people to 30, not 50 though

Justine.6351:

phys.7689:

Justine.6351:

Bubi.7942:

On the other hand, underwater is slow, you see less than before, the environment is pretty repetative.

With that said, I like the underwater aspect of the game, and it’s a shame that it’s being neglected.

How is gliding faster then swimming? Or you just mean feels slower?

As far as the repetitive deal, yeah they need interesting landscape for sure. Its not like humans have been building farms/towns/cities down there lols. Perhaps more concentrated maps will appear, when dealing with underwater dragon, for quagans, krait and those sea angel creatures.

Another bad thing is that there is no back-lore for underwater civilizations. Atleast not anything people currently care about. I suppose they would just be ghost towns.

I still want to see an Underwater borderland map. Atleast there we wouldn’t have to worry about “lore” or “ghosttown” problems.

Ofcoarse there is also the distance/substance you can see. That I can agree with as a problem. Just not enough contrast between the blue-grey and brown-grey colors.

people hated underwater combat when they had a huge lake in the middle.

underwater combat generally boils down to spamming projectiles for a longer period of time for many classes/situations

yes trying to melee fight in 3d is hard to negotiate against projectile users.
options:
-more pull skills on the spear
-inherent +% movespeed with spear
-larger attack area with spear
-more rush skills with spear
-more anti projectile skills on spear (some do exist already)
-better devastating melee attacks

Perhaps I should think up a list on changes to spear skills across the classes that will make running melee underwater more rewarding.

Oh and btw, gliding has NO combat mechanic. Not sure how not liking underwater combat makes gliding more likable.

im saying the reason they like gliding and not underwater, is because gliding doesnt have combat. Gliding is simply a more interesting(because its different, and faster) means of movement.

Ohoni.6057:

Ohoni, you need to realize the main point/fun of the game is not appearance customization.

If that’s true for you, that’s fine, but it’s not true for everyone else. You can’t impose your own values of what is important and what is not onto other players.

Karma armor requires you to do the heart to unlock the merchant
dungeon armor requires you to do the dungeon
racial armor is limited to whatever race you choose.
personal story has unique items
seasonal events give specific gears

Would you agree that these are mostly low bars to cross? If the Raid Legendary Armor is an equally low bar, then I can deal with it, but if it is, as I believe we all assume, a higher bar of skill, time, and effort than any of the things you describe, then it is a much more significant problem than any of those things.

what you are asking for is a radical change that will make the game inferior in design and gameplay. The game was designed, from its inception, as using looks to encourage people to play longer/better/different.

The system I describe would not force people to play better, but nor is anyone served by a player playing better. It would not force them to play different systems if they didn’t want to, but it would allow them to play as few or as many systems that they wanted and still feel rewarded for it.

As for making them play longer, my proposal would have them playing as long or longer as the current system down, my bet would be longer, as once a player “maxed out” all the rewards native to their favorite gameplay styles, in the current game they would have nothing to do but quit until new rewards were added, while in this new system, they could start working on rewards native to other gameplay styles. If they manage to earn ALL the rewards, then they would be in no different position than if they’d manage to win them all under the current mechanism, except that it would have taken them considerably longer because most of those rewards would have been earned under less efficient circumstances.

your design already exists, and you see its problems in both karma and gold implementations.

Not even remotely. Karma has two problems, the first being that it’s very easy to earn, the second that there is very little worth spending it on, so it just piles up. They should have a better idea of how game balance works at this point though, and adding a new currency, they can better balance these factors, allowing players to accumulate it at a more measured pace, and providing better outlets for it.

Gold is a complete fiasco, both because you can buy it with cash, and because you can buy items using gold, and then sell them for more gold, generating gold from gold (on the individual level, don’t try to economics bullkitten me about how gold acquired via these means is not “truly” “created”). The tokens I described could only be earned directly from ingame events, not from gems, not from other players, and could only be spent to NPCs at fixed prices, not fluctuating as supply and demand shifts.

Karma and gold may have their roles to play, but would not interact with the system I described in any way.

Im not talking about what i enjoy, im talking about what their design premise was in creating this game. You have your own meta game thats about getting appearances, but thats your own personal meta. The game was designed around being a multiplayer role playing game. The look customization is placed in the game to enhance that concept, not vice versa.
Its not about what i want or feel, thats actually what the game is designed as. MMORPG.

look at their own wiki
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2
no where do they mention being able to get all looks you want as a main selling point, or core feature.

playing better actually does serve games. Games that are easily solved have low replayability. thats why they keep aiming for simple to start, hard to master. A game thats too easy, or doesnt reward better/varied play quickly becomes boring. Take tic tac toe for example.

any karma type system will always pile up, either after people get everything they want, or because they dont want that much. Your system, like karma allows you to get stuff doing any normal play, so it would build to excess just like karma, through accidental earning.
gold reselling and other problems, just mess up the costs, not the mechanics, and the mechanics is the real flaw of a gold based system. Even static price items show this. Inflation alters the value of items. Overstock of gold requires high new values if they introduce new content.

As to the bar being low, thats not really relevant, unless your argument is not that unique rewards are bad, but rather that unique rewards should have low bars.

The system you want is simply not feasible, too many points of failure.
good value judgements on resource earning across various playtypes
you would need extremely good pricing
excellent prediction of how players interact with the resource
excellent resource sinks
prevention of overstocking of resources

any failure at any point causes the whole system to be sub par.

not to mention the proper adjustment of said system would make the type of play you prefer have almost no value, since its constantly going on while pursuing other goals. Giving it a decent value would overflood the resource.

Justine.6351:

Bubi.7942:

On the other hand, underwater is slow, you see less than before, the environment is pretty repetative.

With that said, I like the underwater aspect of the game, and it’s a shame that it’s being neglected.

How is gliding faster then swimming? Or you just mean feels slower?

As far as the repetitive deal, yeah they need interesting landscape for sure. Its not like humans have been building farms/towns/cities down there lols. Perhaps more concentrated maps will appear, when dealing with underwater dragon, for quagans, krait and those sea angel creatures.

Another bad thing is that there is no back-lore for underwater civilizations. Atleast not anything people currently care about. I suppose they would just be ghost towns.

I still want to see an Underwater borderland map. Atleast there we wouldn’t have to worry about “lore” or “ghosttown” problems.

Ofcoarse there is also the distance/substance you can see. That I can agree with as a problem. Just not enough contrast between the blue-grey and brown-grey colors.

people hated underwater combat when they had a huge lake in the middle.

underwater combat generally boils down to spamming projectiles for a longer period of time for many classes/situations

Justine.6351:

Why are so many people excited for gliding but so many are turned off by underwater?

-Both are 3rd spaces you can move in.
-Gliding is much more restrictive.
-Underwater has combat.

What specifically makes the gliding experience better then underwater? And no “getting to places you cant get to by walking or swimming” because that is simply by design.

Would Underwater experience have been more embraced if maps were created with more depth physically and conceptually?

I don’t spend a lot of time underwater, but I would if there was a good reason to. Perhaps I just answered my own question. So I ask this now, why are they not fixing underwater experience before moving onto above ground experience? Fall damage is more fun?

edit:
ha, fall dmg is more fun? gliding timer is more fun?
if they had added breath timer and dmg for exceeding breath timer then perhaps underwater would have been more exhilarating ! Toss in runes of breath and swimming mastery and we would be gold !

gliding is different movement mechanic.

its faster

its doesnt give you a different set of skills that may not work well

people might love underwater if it gave a new interesting way of controlling your motion, increased speed, and didnt have a poorly designed combat mechanic

dlonie.6547:

AFAIK, they haven’t said anything about not resetting fractal levels again with HoT. Since they’re revamping the progression system and because they’re ANet, progress resets are still on the table.

So I’d hold off on grinding your PR up until we hear more.

(Unless I missed something, but I don’t recall hearing anything “official” on the subject.)

they arent resetting you, they give you a soft reset by changing all the numbers involved. Its basically the same thing but created to achieve the same effect without reseting you.

1)First of all, the amount of effort to get to your current fractal level has been reduced.

• while level 50 used to take at least 50×4 or 200 fractals completed, it now takes 50.

2) the level difficulty curve is being redone, since it takes less to progress (somone who only did 30 fractals probably isnt really ready for the old level 30 difficulty. This means level 50 difficulty will most likely be closer to a level 30 difficulty.

3) they havent mentioned this part yet, but it would be logical for them to reduce the rewards for certain difficulties, based on the fact its easier to level up, and the old difficulties now map to easier content.

so basically? my prediction is at the end of the day, your level 50, will give less rewards, require less levels to get to the same place, and be easier difficulty.

Welcome to fractal reset 2.0, the soft reset.