Guild Wars 2

Duke Blackrose.4981:

There has been a continuous train of complaints surrounding nearly every specialization release that has, quite frankly, grown bothersome. And there is simply no excuse for it.

Why did we get an off-hand?"

At what point was it established that off-hand weapons are in any way bad?

The fact that Anet has to apologize for giving a profession an offhand weapon or “make up for it” by promising extra special mechanics is not a good thing. It reeks of, as much as I hate to say it, entitlement.

They don’t owe you anything just because they gave you an off-hand. In fact, off-hands are great. Sure, they don’t carry the five skills of a two-handed weapon, but they provide for more potential builds, granting the class more potential combinations depending on how many mainhand weapons the class has. This applies double to the Thief, who gets extra interesting mileage out of any new offhands or mainhands in the form of dual skills.

Why did we get this? We need that!"

Well, too bad. For every player complaining about Guardian longbow, someone else really wanted it. It’s a good concept that will give the Guardian new aesthetics and new options. A lot of people really want melee staff on the Thief.

The principle here is that taste is a subjective matter. Do you know what I want on a future Necromancer specialization? Torch. Yes, torch. I LOVE torches and think they are horribly underutilized. Is that by any means a popular opinion? Probably not, but it has merit and it can be used to interesting effects.

At the end of the day, if you like an elite spec’s weapon, rejoice. If you don’t like it, give thanks for the option of wielding it and wait for the one you do want. Chances are, you Elementalists will get your sword eventually, if not the next pass around. Same for you Mesmers and your mainhand pistols and you Warriors with your dagger.

But it isn’t a new role! They promised a new role!"

The kitten they did! At no point did they promise a new role. They promised that it would be profession-changing.

And this is the point that you Elementalists are missing. No, you haven’t been given a new role, but you have been given a new means of playing your existing role. You’ve been given additional build variety. You have relatively viable new utilities that aren’t Cantrips. You have a means of giving out AoE auras without rolling Water. You have a new mechanic that actually incentivizes dedicating yourself to one attunement for a fair amount of time. And while this new mechanic (Overloads) isn’t particularly viable in standard PvP settings, it could really do work in tandem with a Jalis Revenant or a well-used Armor of Earth.

All of this is profession changing. You don’t need to pull out an entirely new role to change.

And while the Eles complain that they haven’t changed, many Guards complain that they have!

This is just baffling. The Dragonhunter and longbow are rejected by quite a few Guardians for being such an outlier to the traditional Guardian style – the opposite of why the Elementalists are ranting about Tempest.

The wonderful thing about the Dragonhunter is that it takes a profession that has a strong role and provides a viable alternative. It complements every single core specialization for the Guardian, and yet it doesn’t feel overwhelming or required like a certain Chronomancer does. It is, with the exception of the Herald, perhaps the best-designed elite specialization to be revealed thus far, and I think it is to be applauded for its simultaneous simplicity and elegance. It stays within the Guardian themes while really bringing a new way of playing them.

The message

If you want a good concept, let the developers have some fun. Sure, submit your own ideas. Give your own thoughts, and express your wishes, but when they roll out something as unique as a sound-based Elementalist, don’t just dismiss the whole thing outright because it isn’t what you wanted, when you wanted it, and with the exact right kind of giftwrap. They’ve given you something that they wanted to see added to their game, hoping that you would love it. They’ve worked hard and given you something different and put the effort into making it something that they are proud to show.

Your job is to play with the new toy, figure out how it fits with your profession, how it expands what your profession is capable of, where it fits in the overall game, and how it feels to play.

Some of these elite specializations change the role of the class. Some give you new ways of playing existing roles. Some bring popular weapon types. Some help to expand the popularity of under-appreciated weapon types like torches.

What all elite specializations have in common, however, is that they are a passionate gift from the developers to the community.

• offhand complaints are too the purpose of specs. They are supposed to feel different and exciting.
  2 new skills are usually not enough to make something different and exciting.
• why did we get this or that, well that is a bit off, however it has some merit for classes that are doing the same things they always did. Unless the playstyle feels very different and equally effective, people may be annoyed. However this complaint is generally pretty subjective, i think the execution is very important here.

Astralporing.1957:

Thaddeus.4891:

PorceleinEve.2973:

this isn’t a competitive sport.
it isn’t even a competition.
the aim isn’t for you to prove how better you are than your fellow men.
you want something challenging and hard and competitive? start playing chess.

So your point is unless you are profession in a competitive activity you shouldn’t try to better yourself and nobody should reward the skill or dedication of someone?

You can better yourself of course, but in activities that are not competitive you should not expect any more rewards that the satisfaction of getting better. You are expecting to be rewarded for doing better sandcastles in the kiddie playground. And you fully expect other kids to be denied those rewards just because they’d rather prefer to dig holes or just socialize. That’s not fairness, that’s a joke.

Harper.4173:

This is a mixed bag here – yes there have been complaints about every single one of the but the complaints are not generated because these items exist but because these items are only obtainable through ridiculous RNG.

Yes for some (Teq, Triple wurm, Fractals, sw carapace chest), no for others (hellfire/radiant case where complains are about them requiring too much ap, dungeon skins – those complains ended in making them available through pvp, all those are not rng based in the slightest), but in the end all of those complains can be reduced to the same basis: “those are too hard to get”.
And in the end all suggestions are about making them easier to get. Except the suggestions from “elites”, ofc.

http://www.statesmanjournal.com/story/travel/outdoors/2015/08/17/dig-right-aug-annual-sand-castle-competition/31857865/
http://www.timeout.com/newyork/things-to-do/sand-castle-contests-at-rockaway-beach-and-coney-island

yup they have sand castle competitions, with various rewards at various levels.

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

Do you really think that casual players will just sit around and watch better players get all kinds of cool stuff, while they sit in the wings? Some will, sure, but what percentage. That’s the hundred thousand dollar question.

And how many players are leaving the game because of the grind, grind, grind and luck involved? How many players who used to be collectors in other games do not collect anything in this one because there is such a grind or rng involved to collect things? How many of those already left? How many players that write guides and try to make the game better for everyone still play waiting for something more to come? How long do you think all those kinds of players (including casual mini collectors) will stay in the game if everything they want is behind an endless grind?

I don’t know. But I do know that without that grind, even with challenging content, there is no MMO. No company can make content fast enough for people who play all the time to be satisfied. No company has done it yet. You seem to equate the grind with hard content getting good rewards.

I don’t. I equate the grind with the idea that to keep people playing there really aren’t any options. You can do it like some games do, and make the drops very rare in a specific raid (or a fractal weapon skin), or you can make the grind so that anyone can get it, but it takes a while.

If you see another option I’d sure like to hear it.

its all about numbers:

the more difficult something is the higher rate you can make the random, because they spend more time.
you can even lessen random drop to zero if its hard enough with enough rewards.

there is also using randomized level design to increase repeatability. fractals was an example of this, even though its not enough imo.

regardless, as i have said, its best for the game to have rewards that fit the effort required. A hard jump puzzle that takes twice as long should have a better reward than an easy one that takes less time.
people will still do the easy one because its easy, they will also do the kittene because it is worthwhile.

the problem becomes when reward is not well balanced. if the easy one give nothing no one will do it, if the hard and easy give the same few will do it.

Silicato.4603:

maddoctor.2738:

Silicato.4603:

+1 to the creator of the thread.
He said exactly what i think and what i want. i dont want this game that i love transform into a frustrating game that only can be played with 150 trained people at the same time or staying on X ip for 2 hours, etc etc. I want a casual game, where i can enjoy and play at its full with just 1-2 hours per day, like GW2 has always been.

A) Challenging Group Content doesn’t mean “insanely long content”. There can be challenge without taking many hours (unless we count wipes), in fact that’s the best kind of challenge

B) I miss the point where any kind of content like this is mandatory. More types of content for more types of players = win isn’kitten

You may consider challenging content a win. But you just have to look the big picture.
It is actually a failure even before start, not a win.
Challenging content is only fun as long it remains a challenge that you cant deal with or if the reward is apealing to you after completing it.

By definition, challenging content has a lapsed time where challenge lovers or any kind of player can have fun with.
After that time, it will be wasted content and wasted resources by anet.

Anet, focus on the kind of content all your players will enjoy, for as long as GW2 lives, and dont fall in the trap of challenging content.
We dont want it, not even the ones who now claim for it. They won’t want it in a few weeks and you will have to create new content for them, and waste even more resources in lapsed content.

And maddoctor, you said that if we have a lot of different content, the better for the game, right?
Well, no, cause in this case, we are talking about lapsed content. Content that nobody will do or will want in a few months. Resources wasted. Instead of making a better game, they choosed to give some resources into lapsed content instead of real content.
I understand why, dont get me wrong. If with this, they manage to make more players (the ones looking for challenging content) to buy, mission accomplished.

But it is not real and durable content. It is just a carrot.
Something that will bring people who doesnt look to the big picture into the expansion.

In a few months after HoT release, when challenge lovers demand new challenging content, or new rewards, or bla bla bla, ill be glad to tell you all: “I told you so”

the mistake you make here, is you assume people play non challenging again and again for fun.
they dont, they do it for rewards. Do you think people did champion trains with 80 people for the joy?

all content will get ignored once people conquer it a few times unless they have a good reward. Or the rare case where it is so thrilling people do it again and again.
This is why the best answer is having appropriate reward per investment.

as far as the thrilling do it again and again thing, its most likely to occur with something more challenging rather than less challenging. The real key to that type of thing is engaging, but something super easy is really unlikely to be engaging.

Silicato.4603:

phys.7689:

Silicato.4603:

+1 to the creator of the thread.
He said exactly what i think and what i want. i dont want this game that i love transform into a frustrating game that only can be played with 150 trained people at the same time or staying on X ip for 2 hours, etc etc. I want a casual game, where i can enjoy and play at its full with just 1-2 hours per day, like GW2 has always been.

the author isnt talking about the overall way the game is played. The author only cares about the reward balance between different types of content.

also what you are refering to is not about challenge, its about barrier to entry.

A sport wouldnt be considered challenging just because you have to wait on line for 2 days with 40 of your friends.

I remind you Tripple wurm is considered challenging content in GW2. And the dificulty it has nowadays is just the barrier to entry: choosing an ip, and put in there all the “challenge lovers”…

Challenging content, in reality, in GW2, not in our heads, is just new mechanics (that will not be new for more than a few days), long content, or both.

triple trouble takes skill, just you are not the skilled one. The ability to be carried will always exist. Is arah easy because you can pay someone to beat the boss?

anyhow those fights are generally about organization skill and following orders. Not my cup of tea, but makes sense for content designed for the whole map to engage in.
I personally would want more personal skill type challenge added.

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

Once or twice maybe. Then what? How do you keep players interested in doing that “hard content” in the long run?

That’s a wrong question. If you need to offer special rewards just to keep players interested in a certain game mode, then perhaps they don’t find it interesting at all. And if they don’t find it interesting, then why should Anet even try to introduce that mode in the first place?

so we should just delete the pve side of the game then? because the most played pve in the game is always tied to the reward levels.
as soon as something gets nerfed people stop doing it, or as soon as some new thing becomes profitable.

no, the key is to make the gameplay reward appropriately, then you have people doing whatever they really want to do.

Erasmus.1624:

• Every class in this game has already either had permanent swiftness since launch or complained enough to get it by now. It’s effortless to maintain.
• The game is also already bloated with multiple “Move 25% faster” modifiers for every class (runes, signets, traits), which dilutes the effect of having swiftness on a player even further because of how little it actually increases the player’s base movement speed at that point.
• GW2’s movement speed in and out of combat is already more sluggish than the ice caps; having swiftness doesn’t make the player all that much faster because there isn’t even that much to fundamentally increase. This is not open to anecdotal comparisons like “But if I have swiftness on, I’m noticeably faster than someone who doesn’t have swiftness even in combat! It’s totally noticeable!” Of course you are. You’re moving 33% faster than that guy. However, 133% base movement speed in GW2 is still incredibly slow in general, especially when one considers how fast damage/CC travels in this game.
• If someone really wants to “move” quickly for whatever reason, that person will use a scripted movement ability or a teleport. Not only are those re-positioning abilities not actually real movement (because the server is doing the vast majority of the work for the player in that case), but it also calls into question the point of swiftness at all if it’s only viable gameplay purpose is making a player move just slightly faster from non-combat point A to non-combat point B.
• Players already have loads of other boons to corrupt/steal.

So why does swiftness exist again? Why is player speed not just the current 133% at all times with bursts of “super speed” (such an awful name) being the actual “player movement speed increase buff” in the game? At least a player can actually see a drastic effect on movement speed while under the effects of super speed while in combat (since it’s worthless outside of combat due to the global player movement speed cap).

if swiftness required no investment and doesnt matter, you would not have created this thread.

you real motivation is, swiftness feels mandatory.
and base speed feels low.

ill be honest here, the people complaining are not casuals. they are hard core, but in a different way.
completionist= hardcore
grinder = hardcore

maddoctor.2738:

Nothing.

With the kind of re-balancing and restructuring they have to do on current elite specs I doubt they will reveal new ones. And if they do I hope they are not elite specs created by any of the devs responsible for the current released ones, they have loads of work to finish on the old ones.

that to me suggests they need to release the other ones asap. The longer they take to release the other ones, the less feedback they can incorporate. Do you really want the other 4 proffessions to be even less tested and iterated than these four?

Silicato.4603:

+1 to the creator of the thread.
He said exactly what i think and what i want. i dont want this game that i love transform into a frustrating game that only can be played with 150 trained people at the same time or staying on X ip for 2 hours, etc etc. I want a casual game, where i can enjoy and play at its full with just 1-2 hours per day, like GW2 has always been.

the author isnt talking about the overall way the game is played. The author only cares about the reward balance between different types of content.

also what you are refering to is not about challenge, its about barrier to entry.

A sport wouldnt be considered challenging just because you have to wait on line for 2 days with 40 of your friends.

binidj.5734:

maddoctor.2738:

The same problem that exists with nearly everything else in the game, is also here. That is, why do the content if I can just do the best farm and buy it?

Because apparently more challenging content is more fun for a number of people (or so we are told, quite forcefully, on other threads) so wouldn’t you do content because it’s fun? Why on earth would somebody deliberately give themselves a less fun experience if there were no difference in reward between the more and less fun options?

Either the “more challenging content” crowd actually mean that they want more/better loot; or they find challenging game play a reward in itself. It’d be nice if people were a bit more honest about which of those options is true.

because humans are not simply all one thing or all another thing.
Just because something is more fun, doesnt mean they will do it. humans also generally balance effeciency as well.

most people wont work a minimum wage job over a job that pays four times as much even if its way more fun.

also challenge isnt just about fun, its also about depth. The most entertaining things either have to have a lot of breadth or a lot of depth, or both. Otherwise they are quickly consumed and discarded.

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

Raif.9507:

Make the items attainable only through hard content but allow sale of them. Problem solved.

The same problem that exists with nearly everything else in the game, is also here. That is, why do the content if I can just do the best farm and buy it?

Well, that depends entirely on what you’re after. If you’re after rewards, then obviously you will try to get them the easier way. Most people asking for hardcore content however claim, that what they are after is not rewards, but challenge. In that case they should do the content for challenge it offers.

So, basically this:

Klocknov.8219:

Klocknov.8219:

Remember the first question after creating content that has to be answered in most all game design is “Does this content offer appropriate or proportional rewards to effort and time spent?”

Wow. That is so very, very wrong. Not saying you’re wrong, just the statement is.

The first question should always be “Is this fun?” If rewards are the main reason you’re doing content, and not because you enjoy that content, then maybe there’s something wrong.

Hard mode should never exist just as a means to separate the “elite players” from “filthy casuals”. Certainly not in the game like GW2.

hard mode should exist as a further challenge with a balanced benefit. It basically adds more depth to things.

does the NBA exist to sepeate your dad from lebron james?
do Art museums exist to separate 5 year old sarah from picaso?
do gyms exist to separate you from arnold schartzenegger?

greater benefit for greater skill/investment is actually the most natural and well balanced thing. In fact i would say they real problems generally arise when people can no longer benefit for their effort/skill. Thats the point in which most people stop doing things.

Vayne.8563:

People are fond of comparing this game to Guild Wars 1. There was very little in Guild Wars 1 that couldn’t be purchased with gold. Arguably, the hardest weapons to attain were the weapons from DOA, or maybe rare stuff like the celestial compass, the bonecage scythe, the frog scepter or the voltaic spear.

All these high end items were available to sell. You didn’t have to be great to get them. You could farm feathers in a low end zone over and over till you could afford to purchase them.

No one in Guild Wars 1 seemed that riled that their rewards weren’t exclusive. It allowed players who wanted challenge to do challenging content and profit. It allowed less intense players to have the rewards.

I think this is the best solution all the way around.

To those who support those hard core rewards, I guarantee you if there are enough rewards casual players can’t get, you won’t have enough players left to continue running the game. Casuals, in my opinion, make a vast percentage of the playerbase. The more you put out of their reach, the more of them you lose.

the more you put out of their reach, the more you lose. This is incorrect. Casual people are not invested enough to leave because they dont have the time to get one item.
a casual basketball player isnt going to stop playing basketball because he cant get endorsement deals.
in 95% of everything in the world, 95% of people approach it casually. Usually the rewards or best benefits are completely out of reach from those 95% of people. And yet they still do them everyday.

music
writing
business
weight lifting
romance
a better question is what do you get the best results from for minimal effort?

Basically any reward should be closely balanced against effort. As long as people feel whatever they did is worth the effort they put in, then they will do what they most enjoy.

Galen Grey.4709:

not just this but also people are really focusing on themselves and not really look at this from Anet point of view.

Anet has one of the biggest if not the biggest MMO team.

At the core of its rewrite, thats when essentially square enix created an MMO in just 2 years, FFXIV had 300 people working on it.

The next in line is ESO and they have less then 250 people working on the game.

Anet have 350.

Many of those other MMOs release an expansion every 1-2 years. Anet is releasing theirs after 3 years. This is critical for everyone but people seem to ignore it. Think about it. 1 year extra means the Expansion has cost Anet more (wages mainly) It means its cheaper for us. a $40 expansion every 2 years equals 20$ a year. a 50 dollar expansion every 3 years means $16 per year. These things matter, its not just about the full price and thats it, you need to see that in context.

Like some MMOs release DLCs that cost a mere $10 a pop. Is that cheaper? if you just look at the price sure, its 5 times less. But in the grand scheme of things those DLCs release approximately every 3 months. All in all in a 3 year period you have to pay 2.5 times more then what you pay for HoT to play all the content released. not really cheaper at all!

seems like you are suggesting, as consumers, you should pay anet more money because they take longer to do something, and give you less content.

ill be honest, based on the way things are handled, it feels like anet has problems with content development in terms of timelines, vision, and amounts. (since after release, maybe before too, but we didnt have too much info) Until they solve those issues, many will be disatisfied.

maddoctor.2738:

Silicato.4603:

I agree that numbers of maps is not equal to quality or entertainment of the expansion.

However i personally love exploring. And if i have 4 maps, there is no doubt that i will explore less that if i had 10.

4 maps are lacking on exploration entertainment, i will devoure that quick. Even the areas of the map blocked by masteries.
But lets wait, the 25% of the central lair of verdant brink (what we could test on BWE1) is really good imo, so maybe 4 maps is enough, time will tell.

I just preferred 10 rather than 4, thought.

From how I understand it HoT maps will be great for explorers because you won’t be able to explore the map on your first try. You have to move on, gather more mastery points, then come back later to explore parts you couldn’t reach before. Also, what does the number of maps has to do with how good it will be to explore? Size of maps, multiple layers, mastery requirements and others are what is important for exploring the new maps, their number isn’t.

part of the limitations of map design is unique resources. Essentially loading times, ram etc, which is why having one huge map with no loading screens usually involves some hidden loading areas.
basically the variation per map is limited.

then you have the fact that some types of level design require space to achieve their goal.

also based on what has been said in this thread, it doesnt sound like all the maps will be 3 zones, and some of the upper and lower areas have a fraction of the explorable area.

fact is that while 3 dense 3 level zones can have more content than 9 barren zones. 9 realized ones can have more content than 3 dense zones as well. And variation wise, 9 zones can mechanically have greater variation than 3 dense zones can have due to loading assets.

ten bug fixes with 15 charachters

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I think the OP is taking the one sentence out of context. Ms. Cox is talking about the Mastery line for Precursors; adds that there is a fourth track and states that 3 Legendaries will release at launch. Pretty sure she wasn’t talking about something suddenly off-topic.

Poor Devs (or transcribers of interviews); they must be ever so careful to spell out, in minute detail, every single thing they refer to.

what are you talking about?

the OP is saying that there will only be 3 legendaries on release, and that they will eventually add 3 more at an indeterminate time in the future. after that, its unknown territory.
thats what the quote does say

Vayne.8563:

IIvIIozzie.9250:

Torolan.5816:

stuff

You fail to understand your opposition’s argument. Southsun wasn’t a fail because the content was too hard, it was a fail because the content was buggy, laggy, boring and unrewarding. While no longer buggy and laggy as it used to be, Anet put no QoL into the zone, they left it to rot. Raising the HP on enemy mobs to make it more “difficult” is just lazy on the part of the developers. They claim to have challenging content in the expansion, we’ll see. If their recent updates are any indication for what’s in store many players will be disappointed, myself included.

In my opinion, people didn’t start complaining about the content delivery system until Anet was pestered into making an expansion from the stuff they were working on for the Living World. Anet had to change gears and hold the content that would have been delivered more regularly for content that will have to come in an expansion. The most common complaint I heard about content from LS Season 1 was that it was coming too fast.

You guys have a really short memory apparently.

the balance in delivery is all wrong.
expansion is not supposed to be opposed to version updates its supposed to be in conjunction.

heres how most handle it well

new content monthly
major content trimonthly
expansion every 1-2 years (totally new plotlines, major character additions, new proffesions, new areas to explore)

anet is like 2 week pace stop for a month 2 week pace stop for 2 months, 2 week pace stop for 3 months 2 week pace stop for 8 months
expansion made from living story bits.

their release, pacing and work flow isnt a good pattern for a service

Galen Grey.4709:

Anet have the largest MMO development team I am aware of (short of WoW ofcourse). They also chucked out most free content in between expansion of any MMO I am aware off (including WoW) while developing their expansion. They also have a relatively long expansion development cycle. Will some players feel ripped off? sure! does that automatically mean they’re justified? No. You dont price things just to make people happy you also need to factor in your expenses and what return your investors are expecting. Keeping most of your players but loosing investor backing can be just as disastrous after all.

You need to find a balance because ultimately you cannot make everyone happy. If a player is willing to drop your game over $3.33 per year ($10 over 3 years) probably that player has much bigger issues with your game then price anyway. After all using wow as an example once again there are over 5m people who consistently don’t feel ripped off paying $15×24 + $40 = $400 per expansion cycle and that cylce is 33% shorter which makes it even worst. Does any of this mean that everyone should be happy with what Anet charges? No of course not, ultimately you’re right, it will be players who decide if the price is justified or not. That being said it is my opinion that this whole thing is being blown up way out of proportion.

its not just about quality, its about a complete experience.
a book is a complete story
mario was a complete experience
a song is a complete experience.

GW2 hot, as they have advertised it is an incomplete experience.

i replayed the initial guild wars a lot.
got every proffesion to 80, i did stretch goals like legendaries. nothing they have added to the game since has been a complete experience though.
Its all side stuff.

the expansion was supposed to be a complete experience, a real meal, instead it is looking like it is going to be another appetizer, then you wait 8 hours and get another appetizer, etc.

full price of a meal for an appetizer is a big problem.

also some things you said that i dont think will be accurate in the future:

• i dont think they will wait 3 years for the next expansion.
• the content they gave out wasnt free, anymore than an f2p content is free, it is paid for by the gem shop, which ultimately always comes down to providing things many people will want to pay for in order to continue to enjoy the game.
• The expansion development cycle probably isnt that long, much of the content coming in this expac was under development, but not as an expansion. Mastery system, came from precursors, which was going to be free, specialization a result of the skills/trait growth we were promised, the new zones are the ones required for mordremoth, which was supposedly planned since they came up with scarlet.(before they planned an expansion)

• you price your items whatever you want, but in reality a price that customers arent willing to pay is not profitable.

• is it being blown out of proportion? that depends on what anets plans and execution are. Many people are buying the expansion with the idea that it will provide another 3 years of entertainment, or at the least a complete experience. Much of what anet has implied suggests that it will provide neither.

CureForLiving.5360:

Zalladi.4652:

3 on expansion release, then 3 more every couple of updates or so (or in increments Anet find manageable for creating the scavenger hunts) until we have a full set.

At least that is how I took it.

My thoughts as well. In think setting up the scavenger hunts is where the delay really is. Likely ANet already has far more than those intended 3 complete (skin wise at least) but they’re now figuring out the scavenger hunt part.

phys.7689:

I wouldnt bet on them adding new ones any time soon. these 6 legendaries took them like 2 years? and only 3 ready with release? there would probably be another expansion before any past 6 were released.

In your hypothetical scenario ANet has been working on those new legendaries for 2 years now. We have no proof of this being the case. The first time (as far as I know) they mentioned new legendaries is the beginning of this year. So we cannot assume they’ve had people working on this for 2 years now for all we know they only started on them in January.

NTDK.4897:

Xillllix.3485:

So will the stuff released after the expansion but not part of it will be available to people who didn’t buy it? This is getting confusing. We’re waiting for an expansion we have pre-paid for and they are telling us that some of it will be released after.

Are all updates subsequent to the expansion considered part of it?

IIRC, i read that all updates after HoT will required HoT (except bug fix)
that is one of the perk of buying HoT

Living Story yes. We don’t know if the Legendaries will be tied to the living stories, or if the scavenger hunts will require HoT. Mind you as far as I remember precursors will still drop randomly, simply now you’d have a means of getting them without having to sacrifice to the Gods of RNG.

Bubi.7942:

Wow, what a kittening joke.

In what way?

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Lol you guys think you’re actually going to see those 3 new legendary weapons? If you really think that then I have a bridge in brooklyn i’d like to sell you…

I mean look at the track record so far:

2013: promise to have a full set of new legendary weapons by the end of the year
2013: (3 months later)- Delayed
2013: (5 months later)- Delayed again and back to the drawing board
2014: Crickets
2015: (April)- Announced a new SET of legendary weapons coming with the expansion
2015: (June)- Announced that only a “handful” of Legendary weapons will be in the expansion with the rest to follow
2015: (August) Announced that only 3 weapons will be in at HoT launch, and only 3 more are planned at this time.

I mean how gullible can you guys get… there are NO legendary weapons, this is just 2013 all over again.

Edit: LOL it is even worse than I thought. They specifically say they are adding 3 new legendary ITEMS at launch… guess what… they already revealed 2 of those to be BACKPACKS. That means at most we are now getting ONE legendary weapon at launch lol.

You know its people like you that caused ANet to stop communicating things that were in-development?

TheRandomGuy.7246:

NetherDiver.6079:

They will add more in time.

This is full priced expansion not some season pass. “More sometime in the future” is not OK for an expansion.

So I take it you buy a WoW expansion and complain that they haven’t added all the Raids in one go as well?

they had a leak of items which will probably be legendaries back in 2013. They havent showed up in game to date.
proof enough for a court of law? no, but im willing to bet you literally, that one of them will be one of the leaked ones.

anyhow, regardless, they will only have 3 ready for the expansion. They have been working on the expansion according to themselves for about 2 years now. those numbers dont make it seem too likely that one would see a full set before a new expansion arrives.

when it comes to content development, historically speaking from anet you should always expect the minimum that they say. Expecting more has not been shown to be fruitful.
when have they overdelivered on anything since release?

and bubi provides evidence they were working on it since 2013

“Legendary Gear and Precursors

We aren’t quite ready to go into all the details here, but what I can say is you will see a specific way to build precursor items on your way to a legendary. On top of this, you’ll also see new legendary weapons and new types of legendary gear in 2013."

But hey! SAB is coming back in 2018 too, so no problems!

Knighthonor.4061:

Dex.6139:

MiniEquine.6014:

Dex.6139:

So this proves that two elite specs (of different professions) can very well get the same weapon.

Which we already knew about anyway. Glint datamine and shield art has been known for quite some time at this point and artwork is a greater indicator of reality than mere skill tooltips.

Very true, but datamines are speculation until we have something official like this pic. The only reason I point this out is to put those " NO? This profession is already getting this weapon, so this other profession won’t be getting it." claims to rest.

bull crap.. Datamine unfinished skills, is different from a Datamined art work which isnt something people can just code together. Artist take time to make those. Which is why they are more reliable than the skills.
Thief Staff has art work. Not just skills.
Ele sword had only skills.
Rev Shield had models made.

artwork is fairly low turn around time. Its also concept artwork.

that said id say its likely theif is getting staff now.

I think at first they had plans for rifle thief and sword ele, but they changed their minds.

main problem is, ele for example still seems pretty rough in terms of design. If a lot of these other specs are still in flux, i dont have great hope for them by release day

Xillllix.3485:

So will the stuff released after the expansion but not part of it will be available to people who didn’t buy it? This is getting confusing. We’re waiting for an expansion we have pre-paid for and they are telling us that some of it will be released after.

Are all updates subsequent to the expansion considered part of it?

most likely based on what they said.

basically buying the latest expansion is the subscription cost for new content. Not a totally unfair system monetarily. Problem is where the two different types of users overlap.

I wouldnt bet on them adding new ones any time soon. these 6 legendaries took them like 2 years? and only 3 ready with release? there would probably be another expansion before any past 6 were released.

deSade.9437:

Isn’t a 15 agony infusion something like 1500g? How could anyone think they’re gonna keep the current system in place without something else to support it – as in, fractal masteries and fractal infusions reward tracks AND 2/5 infusions dropping at 51+?
Really? Come on. It just can’t work like this. Gold grind sure, but not even anet wants you to die to amass enough ar.
And… well, at the cost of sounding like an kitten, they have to sell HoT someway. Just sayin’.

kittening hell, this kittened forum. If I have to edit one more time to fix my post I’m gonna shoot a bird through the window.

They should sell hot with new content. Not retool old content and lock it behind hot

Jerus.4350:

Couldn’t they just insert new levels in wherever shifting the current ones around? So they add a new map, they decide it’s going to be 15, 27, 40, 56, 80, and 99. Now we have 1-106 levels, and everything just shifts around, Old 100 is now 106, old 15 is now 16 etc. We get thrown for a loop as we relearn what number is what map, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing when people are complaining about spamming the same thing.

I don’t see it as too limiting honestly.

They could, but it wouldnt be an elegant system. Leaderboard numbers would change, descriptions and guides would change. Its also possible theyd have to restructure the data depending on how its stored.

They wont want to build on a system like that. They should have gotten rid of the numbering system since the last iteration.

I think the important part is that they asked some specific questions they want feedback on. That will help people answer the questions they are most concerned with

Arcadio.6875:

If they have new islands in this expansion, they can put it in the 1-100 schedule. They can introduce levels past 100 with new islands and mistlock instabilities in the future. I don’t really see much of a problem with that. By the time they get up to that point, the fractals community will have been in at level 100 for some time just like how we’re 50 now.

Of course they will probably introduce some new way of getting new people from 1-100 super fast lol.

They wont be satisfied putting new content with a 100 level requirement. When new content comes they will totally destroy this old system. Like they do for everything.

I think you are overestimating the difficulty.
I think 90+ might be harder, but 50 will probably be easier.
They arent going to expect someone who did 50 fractals to be able to do the current level 50 type stuff.

They said repeatedly they want to make it easier, this suggests the first 10-12 levels is going to be even easier than what we have now. This pushes back tne difficulty scale.
You probably wont hit the current level 50 difficulty til 70ish.

Overall the implementation will probably be similar to a hidden fractal reset.

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

Jerus he also said the new system promoted more variation, but if youre going to farm you 50 Daily Fractal Scale you will now ALWAYS face the same fractal there. Its going to be forever 50 cliffside or whatever one gets placed there.

Thats a downgrade from the old one. Thats less variation.

There is only one daily that promotes playing anything besides the standard 3.
And its unknown how rewarding that daily will even be.

Fractals will never be unpredictable again.

Anet has a habit of making a change, then realizing they dont like it and spending 1-2 years and changing it for a new design which they also dont like and the cycle continues.

This is the reason they have problems making new content. They spend most their dev time re designing the systems for basic content.

Jerus.4350:

He said people may do the same ones but you won’t be rewarded as well as doing a diverse set as well… so… yeah.

He said that with respect to doing the exact same one over and over.
He said people may do the same 3 over and over for the daily just fine

This might mean a group picks their favorite set of scales (3 to 9 or so islands) to clear each day, but repeatedly farming the same scale or same island will not be as beneficial.
"

Repeatedly farming the same level not profitable, but doing the same 3 is fine.
And that only applies specifically to the daily.

You will basically end up doing the non farm fractals as much as people do uncategorized as the first fractal now.

Playing anything but the easy set will become that self imposed meta game that barely anyone does.

Just imagine dungeons with no specific tokens, no daily bonus per path. And some new dailies where you get bonus money for doing any 3 unique paths a day.

You can predict exactly how people will play if

Jerus.4350:

phys.7689:

Jerus.4350:

I’m actually all for a random daily. As phys pointed out I’ve been pushing for choosable fractals for a long time. But, with the caveate of having a daily random series then being able to finish the rest as you pleased 1 by 1 (or forgot the tour and do 1 by 1 with a lesser reward).

Random does add something. But, God I hate doing bad combos at 2am (generally when I start my last for the day). So i see value in that, but overall, I still prefer the new method to the old one. Especially if they reward doing different setups. Personally I’ll still do a good variety of them. I’ll probably do a lot of mai Trin and Grawl Shaman as I find them entertaining, unless they have horrible instabilities or get to a one shot mode I’d probably do them daily just for fun. But, yeah kinda rambling, but I support the idea of an additional full “tour”.

I get why you and others like being able to select, but that being the main way of playing them is very unhealthy for fractals as a whole.

Theres basically gonna be like 3 fractals you can play outside of guild premades

This should just have been a game mode

If they properly reward mixing it up, no. If they fail to do that then yes. Seems they understand the concern so we’ll see what they do.

The more I read it sounds like there is the standard chest, then multiple dailies to accomplish. If they have like 3 dailies requiring different levels and maybe 1 or 2 for any, well, then you’re going to be different ones each day gathering your 3 specific and 1-2 general.

It all depends on the details.

The dude said for the daily people may end up doing the same 3 fractals all the time. (on reddit)

Its a wrap, fractals are just dungeon paths without unique rewards with a 3 path a day limit.

Fractals for the thrill is over. Fractals as grind farm is the future.

Unless they change the design from what they tols us today.

Jerus.4350:

I’m actually all for a random daily. As phys pointed out I’ve been pushing for choosable fractals for a long time. But, with the caveate of having a daily random series then being able to finish the rest as you pleased 1 by 1 (or forgot the tour and do 1 by 1 with a lesser reward).

Random does add something. But, God I hate doing bad combos at 2am (generally when I start my last for the day). So i see value in that, but overall, I still prefer the new method to the old one. Especially if they reward doing different setups. Personally I’ll still do a good variety of them. I’ll probably do a lot of mai Trin and Grawl Shaman as I find them entertaining, unless they have horrible instabilities or get to a one shot mode I’d probably do them daily just for fun. But, yeah kinda rambling, but I support the idea of an additional full “tour”.

I get why you and others like being able to select, but that being the main way of playing them is very unhealthy for fractals as a whole.

Theres basically gonna be like 3 fractals you can play outside of guild premades

This should just have been a game mode

Gav.1425:

serenke.4806:

spoj.9672:

The randomness was not part of the fun to anyone that did fractals regularly.

Just because you hate it, does not mean everyone else hates it.

No, he’s right.

Nope hes not right.

Jerus.4350:

phys.7689:

Enko.6123:

well they could make agony resistance from HoT masteries and if you don’t have it, you might be stuck with crafting the +1s into higher and higher levels which would be cost prohibitive.

They could and may do this, but it would be a pretty crappy system, that i imagine would annoy a great many people.

A great many people who haven’t purchased HoT… something they have incentive to do. Again, I hope they won’t, but, it’s a chance to annoy into buying.

Well being as they have a fractal mastery at all, its not far fetched.

Still it would basically cross cut the playerbase among skill level and which expansion they were on.

I think if they wanted to have hot only fractal content they should execute it differently

Enko.6123:

well they could make agony resistance from HoT masteries and if you don’t have it, you might be stuck with crafting the +1s into higher and higher levels which would be cost prohibitive.

They could and may do this, but it would be a pretty crappy system, that i imagine would annoy a great many people.

Ayrilana.1396:

phys.7689:

Ayrilana.1396:

phys.7689:

Ayrilana.1396:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Ayrilana.1396:

Maybe one of the masteries will be innate agony resistance that doesn’t require ascended gear.

The entire point of agony is to gate players and make them grind. This would bypass that.

Well the mastery would likely require them to play fractals to progress it. Really no different than grinding gear.

Last time they said masteries is hot only. Unless that changes it cant be the main gate for fractals.

As another example, Fractal Masteries will provide combat perks and more rewards within the context of Fractals. As you play specific content, you’ll become more effective within that content, reflecting your increasing skill as a player and opening up new possibilities.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/hidden-arcana-mastering-the-maguuma-2/

Yes this is known it is also been said the only way to unlock masteries whether core or hot is by purchasing hot.

“How Do I Get Masteries?

The ability to train Masteries is unlocked at level 80 for all players that own Heart of Thorns. "

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/reimagining-progression-the-mastery-system/

What’s your point?

Uhh the better question is whats your point.

My point was clear when you responded with that quote.

They cant use masteries for the main progression of fractals.

Because its hot only.

You then replied to me with that quote that as far as ive seen has nothing to do with whar i said.

So what is it you were trying to point out with the quote

Ayrilana.1396:

phys.7689:

Ayrilana.1396:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Ayrilana.1396:

Maybe one of the masteries will be innate agony resistance that doesn’t require ascended gear.

The entire point of agony is to gate players and make them grind. This would bypass that.

Well the mastery would likely require them to play fractals to progress it. Really no different than grinding gear.

Last time they said masteries is hot only. Unless that changes it cant be the main gate for fractals.

As another example, Fractal Masteries will provide combat perks and more rewards within the context of Fractals. As you play specific content, you’ll become more effective within that content, reflecting your increasing skill as a player and opening up new possibilities.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/hidden-arcana-mastering-the-maguuma-2/

Yes this is known it is also been said the only way to unlock masteries whether core or hot is by purchasing hot.

“How Do I Get Masteries?

The ability to train Masteries is unlocked at level 80 for all players that own Heart of Thorns. "

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/reimagining-progression-the-mastery-system/

Ayrilana.1396:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Ayrilana.1396:

Maybe one of the masteries will be innate agony resistance that doesn’t require ascended gear.

The entire point of agony is to gate players and make them grind. This would bypass that.

Well the mastery would likely require them to play fractals to progress it. Really no different than grinding gear.

Last time they said masteries is hot only. Unless that changes it cant be the main gate for fractals.

Most likely they are going to adjust ar reqs as well as reward teirs.

Since the new system is the equivalent of 24 old fractals.

Jerus.4350:

phys.7689:

butch.8136:

phys.7689:

Jerus.4350:

Well, all I have to say is everyone (including myself) is making a lot of assumptions. But, we do have ANet posts assuring us that running the same easy fractal over and over will not be the way to go. So it sounds like whatever they’re doing they’re at least making an attempt to avoid the issue we’re all discussing.

Nah running the same fractal over and over will be the best way to progress, and there will be one fractal that is the best time/reward.
And for the daily people will do the same 3 fractals out of 9

The only non repetive element MAY be the new daily that asks for a specific scale.
But thats only one unpredictable fractal per day. And now a fractal is one level.

So you figure 1/3 of the days that random fractal isnt one of the 3 standard fractals everyone runs ad nauseum

And what do you want actually? People have been rerolling anyway if the RNG was against them. People have been running the ‘best’ scales, etc.

You can only reroll the first fractal. And thats out of a pool of 3.

4 I thought, Ascalon, Harpy, Aquatic, Swamp.

Yeah might be 4. 2 of em are super short though and the other two can appear later

You basically only eliminate one possibility by picking swamp or aquatic

butch.8136:

phys.7689:

Jerus.4350:

Well, all I have to say is everyone (including myself) is making a lot of assumptions. But, we do have ANet posts assuring us that running the same easy fractal over and over will not be the way to go. So it sounds like whatever they’re doing they’re at least making an attempt to avoid the issue we’re all discussing.

Nah running the same fractal over and over will be the best way to progress, and there will be one fractal that is the best time/reward.
And for the daily people will do the same 3 fractals out of 9

The only non repetive element MAY be the new daily that asks for a specific scale.
But thats only one unpredictable fractal per day. And now a fractal is one level.

So you figure 1/3 of the days that random fractal isnt one of the 3 standard fractals everyone runs ad nauseum

And what do you want actually? People have been rerolling anyway if the RNG was against them. People have been running the ‘best’ scales, etc.

You can only reroll the first fractal. And thats out of a pool of 3.

Jerus.4350:

Well, all I have to say is everyone (including myself) is making a lot of assumptions. But, we do have ANet posts assuring us that running the same easy fractal over and over will not be the way to go. So it sounds like whatever they’re doing they’re at least making an attempt to avoid the issue we’re all discussing.

Nah running the same fractal over and over will be the best way to progress, and there will be one fractal that is the best time/reward.
And for the daily people will do the same 3 fractals out of 9

The only non repetive element MAY be the new daily that asks for a specific scale.
But thats only one unpredictable fractal per day. And now a fractal is one level.

So you figure 1/3 of the days that random fractal isnt one of the 3 standard fractals everyone runs ad nauseum

Ayrilana.1396:

From the blog.

Additionally, we’ve simplified the current system of daily reward chests into a system of new daily fractal achievements that have been separated into three distinct difficulty ranges: 1–20, 21–50, and 51 and above. Completing these dailies will give players a chance at the fractal weapon skins, ascended equipment, infused rings, and more.

There also will be a new daily recommended fractal achievement that will rotate to different scales each day, giving you a focal scale to find other players looking to organize for a group.

What is the point you are trying to reinforce with your quote?

Basically all they are preventing is people doing the same fractal 3 times. But no problem dojng the 3 easiest ones again and again.

So predictable so farmable so lame.

Rising Dusk.2408:

phys.7689:

He said youd choose from a pool of scales.
So if the pool is out of 4 fractals you will be doing the easiest fractals each day.

Since there are onlly like 12? Fractals that means by and large you will end up doing the same 3 or 4 fractals over and over. People will never select the harder ones because there will almost always be one of the easiest 4 in a pool

There was no mention of a “pool of scales”. My understanding is that it will be like “Daily Fractal Scale 57” and you would do 57, whatever it is, or not get it.

Therodin.2970:

But if that rotating achievement only gives you something like a pristine or a vial of mist essence or even if it gives you something good but it rotates to like a 24 level fractal, there is no way that doing a 24 will give you better rewards than doing a 100. At the very least it shouldn’t. So what im worried about is that the award for the rotating achievement is ok but that people will only deviate to do it if its higher than 80 or so.

I agree, the rewards must be compelling. I also don’t expect something so low as to not have an instability at all would get chosen for this daily scale. This is a good question I’ll ask them in my report.

Reddit
“tractal scales. You won’t be able to just do swamp X times to complete the achievements.
This might mean a group picks their favorite set of scales (3 to 9 or so islands) to clear each day, but repeatedly farming the same scale or same island will not be as beneficial.”

Even worse the same 3 out of 9 everyday.

Jerus.4350:

dutchiez.7502:

So is there a difference between the daily fractal reward we have now, and ones after HoT? Because right now all you get for the daily fractal is a pristine, but in the new system there would be a different category of “Fractal Daily Achievements” or whatever?

From the sounds of it you get the new Fractal whatchamacallit from a completed fractal strait up. Basically like the boss chests at the end, no lockout.

Then you have the daily scale reward, think of this like our bonus chest now, chance at ascended/skin.

Then we’ll have a new daily achievement set for fractals, what the reward is here I either missed or it hasn’t been said.

So to get all 3 you’d have to do the levels that are part of the daily achievement. I hope the daily is worthwhile, but if it isn’t then yes, it’ll create an issue, but if it is worthwhile, well, we’ll be doing different fractals every day if we want our full reward. A particularly nasty daily may be passed up to still get your other rewards, but if you’re up to the challenge you’d be rewarded.

He said youd choose from a pool of scales.
So if the pool is out of 4 fractals you will be doing the easiest fractals each day.

Since there are onlly like 12? Fractals that means by and large you will end up doing the same 3 or 4 fractals over and over. People will never select the harder ones because there will almost always be one of the easiest 4 in a pool

insanemaniac.2456:

swamp swamp swamp swamp swamp swamp swamp swamp swamp swamp swamp swamp swamp swamp all day erry day get 100 get gone swamp swamp swamp

you people sayin spam swamp needa hit up that reddit thread and keep an eye out for goremond

Basically using the same technique people use now for getting from 30 to 50

You join a higher level swamp party people are spamming.

You dont actually need to play your difficulty level to advance in fractals

Rising Dusk.2408:

phys.7689:

Because they instabilities are designed like the new system instead of the old system.

They perfectly illustrate why the new system will have zero diversity just like people doing instabilities.

Except now every facet of it will be like that

Exactly, but see my previous post. I’ll even quote the relevant part from the blog post:

“There also will be a new daily recommended fractal achievement that will rotate to different scales each day, giving you a focal scale to find other players looking to organize for a group.”

This means that you’ll have daily rewards for the “tiers”, but also a specific daily for a specific scale that you’ll want to do for “best rewards” that day. This scale will change daily, and so you’ll get diversity.

And youll be able to choose from those scales. So the same easy fractals will get repeated.

Perhaps the total pool will be 6 out of 10 possible fractals, but that will mean by and large you will be able to select 3 from the same easiest 6 fractals every day

Its also completely driven by the daily for that very limited amount of variety.

Jerus.4350:

dutchiez.7502:

Rising Dusk.2408:

dutchiez.7502:

So instead of farming Swamp forever, we will farm Cliffside forever?

If all you care about is rewards, there will always be one option that is more lucrative than all others from a time cost/reward perspective.

Right, but as it is right now, after swamp there are still 3 random fractals you have to complete which are different every time.

With the new system, if there is one scale that is always the absolute best for rewards, people will only ever run that scale, and since every scale now always has the same island, we would be running the same fractal forever.

There has to be some mechanic that randomizes reward or something to keep this from happening.

There is a mechanic to randomize rewards int he daily achievements.

As Dusk said, why do we all run 40 and 49/50 instead of all those other levels/

And as far as random maps after swamp… tell that to my RNG! ugh snowblind get away from me!

The system they propose will be repetitive and lame.

They said you can pick from a grouping of fractals. This means always the same boss always the same easy and always the same mid level.