Guild Wars 2

Jongi.7612:

Why exactly do some of the veteran players think ANet owes you anything? I see a lot of vet players understand that nothing is owed to them, but the vocal majority of vets here on the forums think something is owed to them.

The expansion is $50 bucks, end of story. If you dont already have GW2 and you buy HoT you get it for free. Its so that it brings in more players.

Veteran players have already gotten their fair share of free stuff, living story which if these new players want to experience they have to pay for, free level 20 boosts for being active during the anniversaries, free skins, free level 80’s if you didnt waste your tomes, and who knows what else was given out.

So what exactly are you guys complaining about? Its just like these spoiled kids that didnt get the car they wanted, or the 64gb iphone and rage at their parents. Its stupid and I hope ANet sticks to their guns.

The ONLY people that should be kittened off are the people who bought the core game recently and now have to dish out another 50 for the expansion in turn making the expansion more expensive. Give them a free skin, gems or something. Everyone else has gotten their monies worth from the game.

If you think you are owed something because you have been playing for 3 years and new players get the core game for free to increase the size of the community that is the exact definition of entitlement.

its less that anet owes them something

its more that anet shouldnt treat them differently because they are veterans.

If i buy street fighter IV and they say street fighter 3 free with purchase.

then i dont want them to take away the street fighter 3 just because i already bought it 3 years ago.

a free copy of gw2 core has value, i can give it away, i can use it as a mule account, i can get more daily limited resources. There is no logical reason, if it is really free with purchase, that older players do not get a code.

but they dont, because the package treats customers differently but charges them the same thing.

So its really not veteran entitlement, its veterans not wanting to be screwed just because they are veterans

Ohoni.6057:

but the upgrade for ffxiv is 40.00 not 50 dollars
if the expansion followed the same model, GW2 would not be in this mess at all.

But then the following month you have to pay them $10 more dollars, so it’s back up to $50. Then the next month it’s $60, and so on. Honestly, trying to say that GW2 should have the same price for their expansion as a game with a monthly fee is just complete nonsense. At this point I kind of wish that they were offering a $40 version, BUT it comes with the same monthly fee attached as FF14, so if you buy that version, and stop paying them $10 each month, you’re locked out of the HoT content.

also, not to get distracted, but its irrelevant.
the fact is if they had priced it like FFXIV

• they still would have a package that is marketable and a good deal for newbies
• they would have not been giving different customers different service based on who they are
• they would not have had to refund players, or seem like they made a money grab
• would have less people complaining about content vs cost
• would not have this negative press and controversy

sub or not, they should have used a similar marketing strategy

Ohoni.6057:

but the upgrade for ffxiv is 40.00 not 50 dollars
if the expansion followed the same model, GW2 would not be in this mess at all.

But then the following month you have to pay them $10 more dollars, so it’s back up to $50. Then the next month it’s $60, and so on. Honestly, trying to say that GW2 should have the same price for their expansion as a game with a monthly fee is just complete nonsense. At this point I kind of wish that they were offering a $40 version, BUT it comes with the same monthly fee attached as FF14, so if you buy that version, and stop paying them $10 each month, you’re locked out of the HoT content.

subs have nothing to do with anything

the sub is a different aspect of the monetary policy.

what you pay a sub for, is not having an intrusive gem store, or a game designed around having a gem store.

we can compare it to swtor if you want, their expansion was 20 bucks, or we can compare it to Tera whose expansion was free, or Blade and soul in korea, with a free expansion.

but we all know that part of the reason gw2 is b2p is supposed to be having a less intrusive gem store, between a sub and regular f2p game.

anyhow, what you really wish is that gw2 fails because gw2 could not charge a sub with their current gem shop.

but be assured, there are a number of people who have said they wish they could in fact pay a sub for gw2 IF it meant there was no gem shop/gem shop design based descions, anet did not choose to go that route Because they feel gem store is a more profitable business model.

Galen Grey.4709:

Alvagon.8710:

Galen Grey.4709:

what different will it make if they create two packages
1 Gw2+Hot and another standalone HoT?

They will both cost $50 (Gw2 is free for the billionth an 1 time) and they will work exactly the existant package does.

When they sold Guild Wars 2: they said you can buy this House and some time later you can add a pool to it, but still you will need this House that costs 50$.

Now they are selling Gw2:HoT: if you buy the pool we will throw in a House for free and it will cost you only 50$ you dont need to own a house anymore.

The question is : IF you allready own a house do you need the pool? what has the pool to offer? Maybe it isnt even a pool, just a puddle!!

They said no such thing, up until january this year we didnt even know there was going to be a pool.

Since people bought their $50 house, that same house has been selling for much lower, even as low as $10.

now yes in january, 2 1/2 years since people bought their house they said surprise we’ll soon start selling a pool you can add to your house and yes they did say you will need a house for your pool (naturally)

now a couple of days ago they said you know what we really want you to buy our nifty pool so if you dont own a house we’re going to give it to you for free. If you bought the house recently we’re going to refund you the price you paid and all you need to do is pay for the pool.

I dont see where the problem lies exactly!

if you bought the house long long ago you had plenty of time to enjoy your house.

if you bought the house recently you get the price you paid for the house refunded provided you buy the pool

I dont see why people who bought the house long ago should be angry people who buy the pool right now get the house for free when they never had a problem with people getting the house for $10. how is it any different beyond they’re getting a larger discount?

people always make this about past purchases

its about the fact that you cant get the same deal.

basically they have a deal which says, buy a pizza get one free

but in fact its only buy a pizza get one free, if you havent ever bought a pizza from us.

thats the point. for the same money right now, you dont get the same value.

And the whole thing is marketing speak anyhow.
in order to claim they are giving you something free, it has to be separateable, you are not getting “Free” batteries with your remote, if the batteries are fused to the remote and cannot be removed.
the batteries and the remote are one product.

just because they say something in marketing speak doesnt make it reality,

Galen Grey.4709:

Elorna.5329:

At the time of my pre purchase I was still under the impression I’m buying the expansion, and everyone else regardless if new or old player, is doing the same. Their FAQ that I read around the time they released the initial HoT info had me believe that. The original game losing value is a given and I wasn’t at all worried or offended about the sales of it. But adding that product for “free” at the same price value with another product to people that are complete strangers to the series while charging the same to old veterans just for an upgrade, especially when it was a last moment decision, is a shady business practice, and makes me lose trust in Anet as a company. And as I said in my original post this is mainly on me for not reading up carefully, but I didn’t read up carefully because I never had a reason to not trust Anet so far. So yes, you’re right in the fact that it’s a perception issue, but customer care and trust is based exactly on that.

Why? Its quite normal not just for MMOs to offer the original game at a discount when they release an expansion. Like say FFXIV which is launching an expansion right now has a bundle too. $50 for the expansion, $60 expansion + core game. Is arenanet’s decision to instead of discounting the game to $10, they discounted it to $0 that makes this shady for you?

Everyone is simply buying the expansion, if the account you apply that expansion too doesnt have the game, it unlocks the core game for you. I dont really see whats shady about that! No one is being cheated out of anything.

incorrect information presented

ffxiv presents a 60 dollar new player option

but the upgrade for ffxiv is 40.00 not 50 dollars
if the expansion followed the same model, GW2 would not be in this mess at all.

1)people would have felt the price was better
2) they would not have had to change the faq or give refunds based on it
3) they would not be selling two different products to the same players based on if they played the game or not.
4)many of the people who want charachter slot for 50 would have been getting the same value.

so yeah your snafu in what FFXIV offers basically covers how a small difference in marketing makes a big difference in how your product is percieved. It also shows what is accepted when practice when it comes to expansions.

Vayne.8563:

Baldrick.8967:

Sube Dai.8496:

An extra character slot would be nice. But I seriously don’t care.

I can’t believe how much people will complain about 10-20 bucks.

I love this sort of opinion, it shows how companies get away with overpricing products that people like this comment then buy, regardless of what others perceive as proper value.

I’ll happily sell you a gobstopper for $24.99 instead of $0.99. After all, what’s 10 or 20 bucks, right? PM your address, I’ll happily sell you and all the others who have that opinion anything you want at 10-20 bucks over what I can get it delivered to you for.

This is pretty good hyperbole you have here.

Ten bucks on a 1 dollar sale is a 1000% increase. Ten bucks on a four dollar sale is 20 percent. But people are still being taken on a ride, because they’re looking at an expansion for an MMO is a boxed game that you pay one price for what’s in the box. And as long as people look at that, well.

I bought the original Guild Wars 2 box. I bought it for $200 because that’s what the collectors edition sells for in Australia. For that price, if Anet had added nothing, fixed nothing, changed nothing…I’d have been done with the game a year ago, maybe more. That means for my 200 dollars, I’d have played the game for a year, which isn’t really that bad anyway if you enjoy it.

However, Anet DID add things. They added Fractals. They added EoTM. They added 3 zones. They added the Living Story Season 1 (which they took away). They added certain mini games. They added jumping puzzles. And that was all still for that same $200.

People are so worried about spending an extra $10 on a box for a game based only on what they’re buying at launch. But when you’re buying an MMO you’re not really buying a product, you’re buying access to an amusement park.

I’m confident Anet is going to keep adding things over the next year or two, adding more and more value to my purchase. Unlike WoW and Final Fantasy, the other two largest MMOs out there, they’re not charging me $15 a month for that privilege. They’re just giving it to me.

So then I ask myself, if the price of Guild Wars 2 was raised by $10 originally, would I still have gotten my money’s worth. The answer is yes. Yes, even at 10% more I’d have gotten my money’s worth.

I see no reason to believe that won’t happen again.

price points are sometimes like that. 20% too much and people are not interested.

But mostly I think people don’t like the idea of what’s presented

A high price with a low amount of starting content (it seems)
A hidden extra fee to use the product for many users (charachter slot)
A change in plan that caused them to buy/promote to friends based on imcorrect info
Not being offered the same product for the same money based on your history with the company

One of these things alone may not have caused such Big backlash, but all at once?

In the end I think the value for what is being offered right now doesn’t feel.high to people and all the misteps makes people more leary with purchases

mrstealth.6701:

Hammersmash Ureface.2650:

Grav.3568:

AnClar.1304:

While I’m unhappy about the marketing surrounding HoT, I think peeps saying a lack of response from ANet for 3 days equates to ANet doesn’t care is, I think, a bit unrealistic.

Given Anet’s continuing inability to address issues from two years ago, are you really that surprised?

Yep. As I said, it took them 7 years to give us what they said would take 1-2. I’d say, check back in about, oh, a month, 3 perhaps.. A year? It certainly pays not to count with aNets clock…

When did they ever say it would be 1-2 years?

And GW2 didn’t take 7 years, it was 5. They announced it in spring 2007, which was the same time they began work on it. It was released just over 5 years later. And 5 years is a pretty normal time for MMO developement.

As unhappy as I am with the current situation, I’m not going to start spouting off totally inaccurate information to bash them. Use facts for that.

they actually said when i bought eye of the north that the beta was coming in summer. (there was a beta sign up thingy)

maybe they meant summer 5 years later, i had a joke with my friends who played, when they got excited early on, i would say mannnn guild wars isnt coming out till twentytwen (twen being a non existent number that sounds like ten/twelve/twenty that no one can say what it is)

Greymelken.1892:

phys.7689:

Greymelken.1892:

Broom.2561:

Industry standard? For expansions? Really? Maybe for WoW, but WoW is not the industry.

If I look at the other MMO I play… Eve just had it’s 6-monthly expansion (free). But that’s a sub game, so I guess you don’t think it counts, even if most of us spend more on gems than we spend on subs. OK then. The Secret World (f2p) just had another issue for 960 funcom points…less than 10 Euros. SW:TOR (f2p with limitations) had an update in April and is announcing another… both free.

So yeah, I think ANet is a bit on the expensive side in comparison.

As to ‘entitlement’… that’s a stupid buzz word, which is currently misapplied all over the place. What you have here is a question of value for money, which is exacerbated by the fact that one of the main features of the new expansion, the Revenant class, is inaccessible for veterans (at least those who have not already paid $$ for extra character slots), unless they fork over another $10 on top of the expansion. Which is just bad marketing and bad PR.

Star Wars the Old Republic did infact just release a new content update for free, a month after their $50 expansion that brougt 2 zones, 4 dungeons and 2 raids, raised the level cap to 60 (trivializing all content designed for anyone under lvl 55 btw. no more fun pve dailies). this new pack ‘Rise of the Emperor’ introduced one zone you could play through once during a story line, and then the same zone gets ‘destroyed’ and becomes a dialy hub with No Combat. Your daily involves taking pictures. I would not put too much value in SWtoR’s ‘free’ content updates as each time a game like that raises their level cap it serves to herd players into the same spot to create the illusion that there is a healthy population.

WoW is the Gold Standard for the industry, like it or not.

And as to buzzwords: the biggest buzzword of all buzzwords is ‘buzzword’. – the concept of Entitlement is as old as egotism, in fact entitlement is egotism.

huh?
from what i have seen the expansion shadow of revan cost 20 dollars, from the preorder.
and the next expansion hasnt been released yet.
do you mean the version update? which was just the next part in the story?

why are you spreading provably false information?

proof it was originally priced at 19.99 from time of prepurchase
http://www.mindofthegeek.com/2014/10/ckloock/shadow-revan-coming-star-wars-old-republic/
next free expansion which is not out/released yet and is free for subscribers
http://www.swtor.com/info/news/article/20150615

If it was only $20 I am indeed mistaken, and if that upsets you, I apologise. I thought it was $50, I dont really look at my statements, I new I had to pay if I wanted to play, and I knew how much I enjoyed playing, so the price wasnt anything that weighed so heavily on my mind that I could recall what I had spent. I pressed the shiny pay now button, sue me. – I can afford it. the point is – The content that they offer hardly compares to the content Gw2 offers, and any time a game raises its level cap and doesent downlevel you for lower leveled content, thus trivializing the content – that reduces the scope of the game.

i understand that you didnt look at it logically, but if we actually look at the numbers that 20 dollars brings in comparison to what gw2 is adding gw2 isnt coming out as favorably as you assumed (without actually thinking about it)

lets double what swtor shadow of revan gives, and call it a 40 dollar expansion and then compare it to what GW2 has.

2 zones x2 = 4 zones = more than we know about what we are getting from Hot, my assumption is it will be similar,
4 dungeons x2 = 8 dungeons, we have only had 8 dungeons in 3 years, so i assume the dungeon community would go nuts with joy if this happened
2 raids x 2 = 4 raids, we have had zero, i personally dont do large scale content but 4 raids is not insubstantial
5 new levelsx2 would be 10 new levels, this is about equal to specializations

basically if they doubled revans price and content it would be inline (better for some people) with what we currently know about gw2 expansion. but it would be 10 dollars less.

now im not saying swtor is the greatest thing in the world, im just pointing out that content comparison compared to price its coming out to be suggest that maybe the price point for gw2 should have been 40 in order to compare in value.

anyhow, no need to apologize, i just want people to be operating off the facts here when they make analysis

Greymelken.1892:

As long as we are comparing GW2 to other mmo offerings, I think we can agree that a big difference between this and other games is that no content in GW2 is ever trivialized by updates or over-leveling, so even starter zones can be relevant. Anyone who has thought about crafting ascended gear knows that the game isnt just about lvl 80 zones. Because of this there Has to be an incentive to new players to join or else there is the potential that a player would not want to join because they missed the train on its first pass and now everyone has the window seats.

This is why I dont play Eve. I love spaceships, and sci-fi, and the idea of a complete fre-for-all sociopathic community of piracy, but if I were to play now with my account that has little more then a year worth of ‘training’ I would be one of the little people forever.

Comparing it to WoW, they love to trivialize their content. Anyone playing on a PvP server knows that they cant level in the open world without the real threart of someone droping out of the sky on their level 100 and one shotting them before they are even noticed. Even on a pve server a level 100 can just drop in and wipe out a whole screen of npc’s with their smallest aoe and disrupt you from collecting 10 bear hides, or whatever.

Gw2 is a great game that doesent have these problems fully, but there is still the sense that a new player would be far behind a three year veteran, and it is very true. Imagine playing an entirely new account and the things that you couldnt do if you were forced to start at square one. You would want that old account back, and all the fancy skins and high level characters to farm with, to say nothing about how much more knowedgeable of the game a veteran is.

I feel like I got more of my money’s worth playing Gw2 several times over what I got investing money in any other game, and the irony is this is the cheapest MMO I have ever played. $60 for 3 years of fun! it really is unbelievable that this is possible.

WoW – 3 years $700
Final Fantasy XI – 2 years $480
SWtoR – 2 years $480
Star Trek Onine – 3 years $2000.

GW1 – 4 years $60
Gw2 – 3+ years $60

and for $60 GW2 has exponentially more replay value and sustainability then all the other MMO’s I have played combined! This is why entitlement doesent settle well with me. GW2 is so cheap for the content it offers.

why did you spend so much on star trek and nothing at all on gw2?

anyhow i dont bring up the sub cost, because sub versus non sub is basically the difference between a party with free drinks and a party without.

GW2 is subscription free, but the game economy is built and maintained to keep the gem/gold conversion viable.

this is the price of drinks at the gw2 party
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gem_Store/historical

you buy a subscription game, and you get virtually all content via playing the game the subscription cost covers the drinks, and depending how much your drink, its worth its value, or not.

now, its not black and white, you get a lot free in gw2, and some sub games sell things in stores, but point is there is always a price for any business model. They didnt give us the game for nothing they let us pay to enter so they can advertise and sell virtual goods from the gem shop.

Behellagh.1468:

Calling an expansion a paywall is a little unfair in my opinion. By definition then all expansions are therefore paywalls if you need to buy it to access it’s content.

Paywall is usually reserved for core game functionality being restricted from F2P players that VIP tier (read subscription in everything but name only) players get.

paywall is not really a negative term, its just a wall that exists between players who have paid and have not.

you can call it a splitting of the playerbase if you will.

the poster’s main point is that its ironic, that they are trying to have one box, in order to avoid players split up into core/hot as much as possible, and yet it seems like the current pricing will likely create a decent section of people who will not adopt the new expansion. thus creating a larger split than between adopters and non adopters than they would have had with a different plan.

of course, perhaps this is all talk and not that many people will not purchase, it remains to be seen.

Greymelken.1892:

Broom.2561:

Industry standard? For expansions? Really? Maybe for WoW, but WoW is not the industry.

If I look at the other MMO I play… Eve just had it’s 6-monthly expansion (free). But that’s a sub game, so I guess you don’t think it counts, even if most of us spend more on gems than we spend on subs. OK then. The Secret World (f2p) just had another issue for 960 funcom points…less than 10 Euros. SW:TOR (f2p with limitations) had an update in April and is announcing another… both free.

So yeah, I think ANet is a bit on the expensive side in comparison.

As to ‘entitlement’… that’s a stupid buzz word, which is currently misapplied all over the place. What you have here is a question of value for money, which is exacerbated by the fact that one of the main features of the new expansion, the Revenant class, is inaccessible for veterans (at least those who have not already paid $$ for extra character slots), unless they fork over another $10 on top of the expansion. Which is just bad marketing and bad PR.

Star Wars the Old Republic did infact just release a new content update for free, a month after their $50 expansion that brougt 2 zones, 4 dungeons and 2 raids, raised the level cap to 60 (trivializing all content designed for anyone under lvl 55 btw. no more fun pve dailies). this new pack ‘Rise of the Emperor’ introduced one zone you could play through once during a story line, and then the same zone gets ‘destroyed’ and becomes a dialy hub with No Combat. Your daily involves taking pictures. I would not put too much value in SWtoR’s ‘free’ content updates as each time a game like that raises their level cap it serves to herd players into the same spot to create the illusion that there is a healthy population.

WoW is the Gold Standard for the industry, like it or not.

And as to buzzwords: the biggest buzzword of all buzzwords is ‘buzzword’. – the concept of Entitlement is as old as egotism, in fact entitlement is egotism.

huh?
from what i have seen the expansion shadow of revan cost 20 dollars, from the preorder.
and the next expansion hasnt been released yet.
do you mean the version update? which was just the next part in the story?

why are you spreading provably false information?

proof it was originally priced at 19.99 from time of prepurchase
http://www.mindofthegeek.com/2014/10/ckloock/shadow-revan-coming-star-wars-old-republic/
next free expansion which is not out/released yet and is free for subscribers
http://www.swtor.com/info/news/article/20150615

Otokomae.9356:

Gulesave.5073:

Otokomae.9356:

EAnet didn’t really have much say in the price of this expansion, it was decided for them several weeks before the expansion was even announced at a stock analysts meeting in Korea: http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3adxq0/the_real_reason_for_hots_50_price_tag/

That was a prediction, and a bit of an indirect recommendation. Influential, maybe, but not “decided for them.”

Absolutely true. Nexon, who just acquired a 15% stake in NCSoft 2 years ago for $685 million from founder Kim Taek-Jin, could have easily said “You know what, let’s jsut ignore the yearly projections that were made available to every financial analyst in the world by the most powerful investment bank in the country where we’re based. Just sell the game for $25 if that what you think it’s worth, who cares if we lose $300 million when the stock tanks because it couldn’t meet yearly projections?”

Of course, that’s NOT what they did… it could be a coincidence that the expansion came out at $50. It’s not, of course. But it’s still fun to sit around and theorize about how someone at ArenaNet independantly came up with that exact same number as the value of the expansion all by itself, with no extras tacked on.

phys.7689:

not really, people are looking at that info incorrectly, that firm is responsible for consulting with the developers and making projections on the stock value based on what they have been told.

Point being they made those projections because anet told ncsoft that those were their expectations months ago.

This was not a consultation meeting with NCSoft, Daewoo Securities came up with those numbers on their own, as stated in the document, based on GW1 sales figures. And whether Anet or NCSoft believed they could sell 2 million copies of this expac @ $50 each or not isn’t even relevant; once that projection was made, it was practically set-in-stone that $50 would be the base price, no matter how much Anet or anyone else thought the content was actually worth.

daewoo securities made predictions on gw2 for multiple years that was innacurate (multiple times said an expansion was coming each year in fact)

this time ncsoft gave them some real numbers/timelines. And i feel like ncsoft got their projections from anet, because ncsoft really isnt in a position to have any idea how much anet will be able to sell without anet themselves providing them numbers, metrics and data.

Teon.5168:

phys.7689:

Teon.5168:

phys.7689:

Saiyan.1704:

Delgamor.2376:

I personally refuse to drop $50 on HoT for a few simple reasons.

First, There isn’t enough information on the new content coming WITH HoT.

Second, $50 and oh, you get the original game too when you already have it and don’t need it?

Make a different pre-order category for those who already have the core game, and people will drop their money faster than you can blink, but it’s a slap in the face to charge $50 for the X-pac AND a game we already own.

People are too funny.
How is this any different than buying a 2 year old steam game that ends up being free or heavily discounted years later? Did veteran players QQ on the forums because they just realized the game they preordered years ago for $100+ previously, is now free? Gosh Steam forums must have their hands full.

Don’t be ridiculous.

the difference is you can still buy the game at the sale price and get the same thing as a new player.

they are essentially barring old players from the sale price.

Start a new account, phys, and you will get exactly what a new player is getting, for exactly the same price. You’ll also get to level new characters, just like a new player.

i am seriously considering that, if i purchase it. its a better value.
sucks that they are encouraging players to give up player progress for a decent value.

sameway if i wanted to add a pool to my house, and someone told me it would cost me as much as buying a new house, i would probably buy the new house, or not buy the pool.

It’s not giving up player progress. I am a very casual player, and I have 2 accounts. Got my second account on that absurd sale they had awhile back. With the daily login chests and such, you don’t have to play that extra account very much to level up.

I still play my main account just as much as I did.

you are giving up your old “house”
ie acheivements, gear, crafting levels etc.

however they still exist, they just wont benefit from any HoT only parts, so it is something to consider.
but likely ill just pass on it till they get a sale for a more agreeable price, or they offer more for 50.

unless my friends really really want to play it, then i may just get a second account

Otokomae.9356:

phys.7689:

AnClar.1304:

Pyriel.4370:

If there is anyone at ArenaNet that needs a customer feedback to improve process or kickstart a change in policy and processes please use this. If this was my work, we would have had the investors biting off our heads to make a statement.

ANet’s major financial partner is NCSoft, a Korean based corporation. I would imagine that most of NCSoft’s investors are not all that close to GW2 and it’s community. I think it’s a safe bet to say that all NCSoft’s investors give a rap about is NCSoft’s bottom line. It looks as though ANet is doing whatever it takes to make the sales and revenue targets that NCSoft sets.

people have a bad habit of blaming ncsoft for every bad decison we hear. Look at their other games, you will find that those games prices are generally fair, and they havent charged 50 dollars or the equivalent for an expansion.

this business model is developed and maintained by arenanet, almost everything else ncsoft does is subscription based or free to play.

EAnet didn’t really have much say in the price of this expansion, it was decided for them several weeks before the expansion was even announced at a stock analysts meeting in Korea: http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3adxq0/the_real_reason_for_hots_50_price_tag/

not really, people are looking at that info incorrectly, that firm is responsible for consulting with the developers and making projections on the stock value based on what they have been told.

Point being they made those projections because anet told ncsoft that those were their expectations months ago.

Yuujin.1067:

I like all the people calling this a money grab.

Sure, giving the core game away for free to attract new players is a money grab.

very few new players were going to pay 90 bucks for the HoT version of gw2.

the people talking about money grab are probably refering to them telling players they would have to buy GW2 to access HoT for months, and now it turns out that the opposite is true.

Teon.5168:

phys.7689:

Saiyan.1704:

Delgamor.2376:

I personally refuse to drop $50 on HoT for a few simple reasons.

First, There isn’t enough information on the new content coming WITH HoT.

Second, $50 and oh, you get the original game too when you already have it and don’t need it?

Make a different pre-order category for those who already have the core game, and people will drop their money faster than you can blink, but it’s a slap in the face to charge $50 for the X-pac AND a game we already own.

People are too funny.
How is this any different than buying a 2 year old steam game that ends up being free or heavily discounted years later? Did veteran players QQ on the forums because they just realized the game they preordered years ago for $100+ previously, is now free? Gosh Steam forums must have their hands full.

Don’t be ridiculous.

the difference is you can still buy the game at the sale price and get the same thing as a new player.

they are essentially barring old players from the sale price.

Start a new account, phys, and you will get exactly what a new player is getting, for exactly the same price. You’ll also get to level new characters, just like a new player.

i am seriously considering that, if i purchase it. its a better value.
sucks that they are encouraging players to give up player progress for a decent value.

sameway if i wanted to add a pool to my house, and someone told me it would cost me as much as buying a new house, i would probably buy the new house, or not buy the pool.

AnClar.1304:

Pyriel.4370:

If there is anyone at ArenaNet that needs a customer feedback to improve process or kickstart a change in policy and processes please use this. If this was my work, we would have had the investors biting off our heads to make a statement.

ANet’s major financial partner is NCSoft, a Korean based corporation. I would imagine that most of NCSoft’s investors are not all that close to GW2 and it’s community. I think it’s a safe bet to say that all NCSoft’s investors give a rap about is NCSoft’s bottom line. It looks as though ANet is doing whatever it takes to make the sales and revenue targets that NCSoft sets.

people have a bad habit of blaming ncsoft for every bad decison we hear. Look at their other games, you will find that those games prices are generally fair, and they havent charged 50 dollars or the equivalent for an expansion.

this business model is developed and maintained by arenanet, almost everything else ncsoft does is subscription based or free to play.

Smallclaw.1650:

Isn’t that life? Time and money go hand in hand.

So we are comparing GW2, a highly successful MMO to other MMO’s on the market who are made by different companies? Comparing the work and quality of one to another is a bit of a stretch. What you gain by purchasing is the promised content. Don’t want to pay for it? Then don’t play.

I compared it because you bring up todays market in your post

“Those who argue that $50 for even the Basic pre-purchase option is too much, why? Look at today’s market. "

and as for the dont want to pay, dont pay thing, thats what people are saying. They are saying they dont think they will be paying at this price, and telling anet why. Since this is one forum that will contain both GW2 core players and GW2hot players, you cant really tell them to leave the store, because they are still core players.

Saiyan.1704:

Delgamor.2376:

I personally refuse to drop $50 on HoT for a few simple reasons.

First, There isn’t enough information on the new content coming WITH HoT.

Second, $50 and oh, you get the original game too when you already have it and don’t need it?

Make a different pre-order category for those who already have the core game, and people will drop their money faster than you can blink, but it’s a slap in the face to charge $50 for the X-pac AND a game we already own.

People are too funny.
How is this any different than buying a 2 year old steam game that ends up being free or heavily discounted years later? Did veteran players QQ on the forums because they just realized the game they preordered years ago for $100+ previously, is now free? Gosh Steam forums must have their hands full.

Don’t be ridiculous.

the difference is you can still buy the game at the sale price and get the same thing as a new player.

they are essentially barring old players from the sale price.

Palador.2170:

I would like to clarify that my post about promises was an attempt to lighten the mood a bit. When they make a media event out of it, it’s more than a promise.

As for what to call it, how about an Enhancement? Or Upgrade?

its a new version, sold as stand alone game. update implies you can just get an update

Smallclaw.1650:

I think there are some points being missed amidst all of the angry player warfare.

GW2 is not GW1. Stop comparing the two games; they are never going to be the same. Each one has its strengths and weaknesses; people are going to favor aspects of one versus the other. If you want to play GW1, I suggest you do that, and stop holding your breath for GW2 to suddenly transform into a GW1 reproduction. You will die of asphyxiation.

Since there are people digging into this, to actually argue that HoT is not an ‘expansion’ based on GW1 expansions, map size, what is being included, etc – on GW1 the actual area you were able to maneuver around was much smaller. Yes, the expansions provided larger ‘bricks of land’ but how much of that land could you even travel on? Surely not as much, as dividers existed between trails that barred you from popping from one section to another. The percentage of area you could actually explore was significantly less.

But these two games are not the same. So that entire argument is moot to begin with!

As for the Free Character slot for Revenant:

It’s not ANet’s responsibility to provide you with a free character slot. Would it be nice? Oh yeah. Would a million dollars be nice? You bet, but let’s be realistic. You have x character slots full of 80’s. If you knew HoT would be introducing a new class with it since January, this entire time you could have been preparing for that additional slot, instead of banking on the assumption that a slot would be handed out. ANet never promised a free slot; counting your chickens before they hatch will set one up for disappointment.

up for it, ask it to be gifted for x special day, or be quiet. Just because some of us can afford, and see even the Basic option as desirable, doesn’t mean our money was not earned, or that we ‘have it easy’ because we can afford it. I work hard for my paychecks, and I don’t feel scammed at all by ANet.

I am excited to enjoy the new content, and more quick to find things I like, than find things I don’t. If you’re upset, maybe you should reevaluate whether or not your disappointment was due to expectations that were never promised.

in todays market, a highly successful MMO just released a 40 dollar expansion.

the fact that you can offer to work for someone else and have them pay the 10 dollars for your revenant charachter slot (which is what you are doing when you sell your time earning gold to another player) is also irrelevent

fact is, if you are a current player without a free slot you must pay 60 dollars, or do work with equivalent monetary value of 60 dollars in order to play with revenant.

Its not really about what was promised, its about what is being offered, and how that compares to similar goods and services on the market or, what you gain by purchasing.

reapex.8546:

phys.7689:

They told people they were going to sell an expansion, and now they changed thier minds, and arent selling an expansion any more. They are selling a stand alone game

The core game is free and HoT cost $50 dollars.

if the core game is free, then everyone who buys it gets a copy, but they dont.

if its part of a package deal then you can buy it seperately, but you cant.

there is one, and only one version of gw2 being created by anet now, and it is the HoT edition.

not everything someone trying to sell you something says actually makes sense in the eyes of logic, the english language, or the law.

if i tell you you get a hammer free when you buy nails at my store, EVERYONE who buys nails gets a hammer, whether they have one at home or not. (copyright someone else in this forum somewhere)

hapvis.7059:

Spurnshadow.3678:

It isn’t. If a player with no version of GW2 buys it, they get the whole game. That’s not an expansion. It also costs the same to existing players as players who don’t own the game. That’s not an expansion.

ArenaNet define HoT as the GW2 expansion pack. Please see the pre-purchase page:
http://buy.guildwars2.com/store/gw2/en_US/html/pbPage.heartofthorns?_ga=1.16880561.907650097.1433487203&cid=90:5::::Global:40:::
Not the customers……
I copy and paste it here: Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion(includes Guild Wars 2 core game)

the world as a whole decides what language means, definately not a corporation, unless they make up new words, then they can define them as they see fit.

language is about the agreed upon standard definitions/ logical definitions. Not what some one trying to get you to buy something tells you it means.

briggah.7910:

phys.7689:

Azure.8670:

Ephemiel.5694:

Mentions ArcheAge and Warlords of Draenor, but doesn’t mention the $40 Heavensward. Alright.

Ff14 is never used in any kind of comparison because of the gigantic flop it was and how many people lost money initially buying it. The script gets flipped on it so often they just let it be

uhh no one lost money buying it. you got upgraded to ARR free, and kept charachter progression in the new version.

I lost money because I paid for a bunch of months since I didn’t wanna whip out my CC every month. Game was so bad I don’t even think I lasted the first full month. That was my own fault because that was the choice I made. It opened my eyes though and I found better games that do not require you to pay a monthly fee..

oh you mean you didnt enjoy ARR, and bought game time ahead of time. The other poster was talking about the original game which didnt actually charge a fee for like 8 months? because they were still in re development.
I personally stopped playing around that time.

i tried it again recently and it was pretty fun to me, but then the people i was playing with had real life issues so i dropped it.

For me, for sub games, i will always pay month to month now. It better ensures i always get the value i want, and not a big deal if i lose interest

Ashen.2907:

phys.7689:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Roquen.5406:

But that is where you are wrong if you pre-purchase HoT but already have the core game you DO NOT get a secondary new account, you just get the upgrade to HoT.

So once again, if you pre-purchase but don’t have an account you get a new account AND HoT.

If you already have an account you only get HoT.

That is the issue people have with this.

Actually, what he said is correct. He said that if you pre-buy and do not apply the code to an existing account, you will get the exact same thing that a brand new buyer gets, a new account with access to the HoT on that new account. Whether or not this is desirable to a veteran player is not something he discussed, only that the same option is available.

His argument is kind of nit picking though imo because while it is an option, it’s not a desirable option as it comes with so many disadvantages to someone who is progressing an old account. The old account will not have accesss to further progression from the new system and has no accesss to the new areas.

If you’d read the entirety of my post, you’d see that I did in fact comment on the desirability of attaching the HoT code to an existing account.

Also, the argument is not nitpicking if in fact one understands that the price if HoT is $50 and will be whether ANet keeps the free GW2 access or drops it due to poster pressure.

Posters who expect ANet to reduce the HoT price have not considered the economic realities. ANet stands to lose a lot more money if they drop the HoT price to $40 than they would likely lose if the barrier to entry were $60 or $70 (say) to new prospects. HoT sales to vets and returning vets are likely to be much higher than sales to new players no matter what new players have to pay.

Again, whether HoT is worth $50 is a separate issue that each consumer ought to evaluate for her/himself. If ANet had waited to attach a free GW2 copy to HoT until the xpac debuts, that is the issue that would be on the table, not perceived “unfairness.” Why didn’t they wait? I’m not sure. My guess would be because we’re approaching the end of Q2 2015 and NCSoft would like to see as much revenue increase as possible from GW2 for the quarterly report.

wether they will lose more money depends on how many people they lose at the 50 dollar price point versus the 40 dollar price point.

lets say they make sell 800 thousand at 40 dollars or 32 million
or 500k at 50 dollars is 25 million.

basically mathematically the break down between price points is

5:4 essentially if the 40 price will increase sales by 25%, it is of the same value. conversly, if the 50 dollar prices causes a 20% drop in player interest, it is the same value.

basically anet marketing guys have figured that they wont lose or gain that many players with a 40 versus a 50 dollar price point.

based on what people are saying now, and the contraversy, that may not be the case. The assumption was probably that at 50 dollar cost they would still have an extremely high retention rate.

what i see happening, is probably many people will not prepurchase, they will probably get some 40 dollar deal from a place like green man gaming or etc.
anet actually loses money on these sales, because they dont get full profit from these purchases. im assuming they probably get 20-30 dollars out of other retailers prices.

point is, i think they picked the wrong price point, definately for the public opinion, but also for maximum profit.
39.99 right now is the sweet spot for expansions.

Keep in mind that with the current $50 price tag people willing to spend $50 can do so and that people willing to spend $40 may get a deal from the place you mention.

If the price were at $40 then the people willing to pay $40 would do so and the people willing to pay $50 would spend ten dollars less than they would have.

right but Anet doesnt make as much money from the other retailers selling games as the ones that are directly sold on their site.
the early retailers who give discounts are basically cutting into their own profits to sell at a greater volume, because they feel they will make more money in total.

i am guessing anet sees a max of 25 dollars from retailer sales, probably lower due to shipping/packaging etc.

now, if anet was the sole seller, and people buy from anet down the road when anet has their sale, then it ends up falling in the middle.

but yeah its not so simple as 2 variables but they arent guaranteed to make more money at a higher price, it depends on a lot of factors.

Azure.8670:

Ephemiel.5694:

Mentions ArcheAge and Warlords of Draenor, but doesn’t mention the $40 Heavensward. Alright.

Ff14 is never used in any kind of comparison because of the gigantic flop it was and how many people lost money initially buying it. The script gets flipped on it so often they just let it be

uhh no one lost money buying it. you got upgraded to ARR free, and kept charachter progression in the new version.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Roquen.5406:

But that is where you are wrong if you pre-purchase HoT but already have the core game you DO NOT get a secondary new account, you just get the upgrade to HoT.

So once again, if you pre-purchase but don’t have an account you get a new account AND HoT.

If you already have an account you only get HoT.

That is the issue people have with this.

Actually, what he said is correct. He said that if you pre-buy and do not apply the code to an existing account, you will get the exact same thing that a brand new buyer gets, a new account with access to the HoT on that new account. Whether or not this is desirable to a veteran player is not something he discussed, only that the same option is available.

His argument is kind of nit picking though imo because while it is an option, it’s not a desirable option as it comes with so many disadvantages to someone who is progressing an old account. The old account will not have accesss to further progression from the new system and has no accesss to the new areas.

If you’d read the entirety of my post, you’d see that I did in fact comment on the desirability of attaching the HoT code to an existing account.

Also, the argument is not nitpicking if in fact one understands that the price if HoT is $50 and will be whether ANet keeps the free GW2 access or drops it due to poster pressure.

Posters who expect ANet to reduce the HoT price have not considered the economic realities. ANet stands to lose a lot more money if they drop the HoT price to $40 than they would likely lose if the barrier to entry were $60 or $70 (say) to new prospects. HoT sales to vets and returning vets are likely to be much higher than sales to new players no matter what new players have to pay.

Again, whether HoT is worth $50 is a separate issue that each consumer ought to evaluate for her/himself. If ANet had waited to attach a free GW2 copy to HoT until the xpac debuts, that is the issue that would be on the table, not perceived “unfairness.” Why didn’t they wait? I’m not sure. My guess would be because we’re approaching the end of Q2 2015 and NCSoft would like to see as much revenue increase as possible from GW2 for the quarterly report.

wether they will lose more money depends on how many people they lose at the 50 dollar price point versus the 40 dollar price point.

lets say they make sell 800 thousand at 40 dollars or 32 million
or 500k at 50 dollars is 25 million.

basically mathematically the break down between price points is

5:4 essentially if the 40 price will increase sales by 25%, it is of the same value. conversly, if the 50 dollar prices causes a 20% drop in player interest, it is the same value.

basically anet marketing guys have figured that they wont lose or gain that many players with a 40 versus a 50 dollar price point.

based on what people are saying now, and the contraversy, that may not be the case. The assumption was probably that at 50 dollar cost they would still have an extremely high retention rate.

what i see happening, is probably many people will not prepurchase, they will probably get some 40 dollar deal from a place like green man gaming or etc.
anet actually loses money on these sales, because they dont get full profit from these purchases. im assuming they probably get 20-30 dollars out of other retailers prices.

point is, i think they picked the wrong price point, definately for the public opinion, but also for maximum profit.
39.99 right now is the sweet spot for expansions.

Ayrilana.1396:

Galandil.9641:

Ayrilana.1396:

This does make you wonder though. Of all of the information that Dragon Season and other sites have posted regarding the upcoming update, how likely are they to be taken as credible or true? They stated that ascended would be 10% better and yet Colin just said that wasn’t the case as the difference is remaining the same. So how much from those “patch notes” that hasn’t already been released by Anet is true?

Or, more likely: +10% gap -> kittenload of complaints -> backpedal to +5% gap.

But of course. I mean, I can create my own patch notes stating a controversial change, call them official, and then wait for the outcry. Then Anet can say that’s not the case and we can just say that they had changed their minds because of the outcry.

they didnt say that they didnt tell those sites that info. which they usually do say in those situations. They also responded and said those were just the class portion of the changes.

what likely happened is they didnt cut and paste properly from their total patch notes, and included too much info.

Whether they officially changed their minds based on feedback, or those changes werent going to make it to live is unknown.

BrooksP.4318:

Its expanding the current game ergo expansion.

you are not able to expand the game without buying the full product, ergo not an expansion.

im pretty sure this stream will not be about price at all, its probably supposed to be about guild halls

briggah.7910:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Alphard.6529:

Veteran players asking to get a separate base game key because they think the product somehow entitles them to that are silly. Giving out millions of base GW2 accounts to people who upgrade their current account would also be pretty silly.

They claim the full game is free. So why shouldn’t they give existing players an extra copy of the game, if it is included for free with the expansion? Its free aint it? So what’s the problem?

See, and this is exactly what makes existing players feel that something is shady. Especially since the expansion happens to be the price of a full game. This has nothing to do with entitlement.

So what if Anet gives you the core game for free? Since you already have the core game what stops you from trying to scam others and sell your free core game to make yourself money? I think this is the main reason you won’t get a free version of the core game. Scams are all over the place on the internet and lets face it some people would take this free game and sell it on sites like ebay and maybe even call it HoT just to profit themselves.

That would probably happen, but that would still make anet money, as they use the gem store and feel the need to upgrade.

Real reason they don’t want it to happen is xause they don’t want there to be a core version. They don’t want new people running around withou Hot. Many of the features of hot weren’t designed to work well if you don’t have hot.

I understand why they do it the way they do it, the big problem ia they created a price point that will leave a lot of current players without much desire to buy the new one.

Basically for the everyone will have hot, that anwt prefers, they need to make older users feel like getting HoT is a no brainer.

Celtic Lady.3729:

Random.4691:

They purchased it because that is what it appeared they were being told needed to happen. They shouldn’t lose their progression, gem purchases, names, and whatever else they have acquired based solely on the fact that Anet is pretty bad at communicating.

Totally agree with this. I just don’t understand the logic of forcing well-deserved refunded accounts to completely start over.

the only real solution they can offer, is if they actually had an expansion only version for less. It would be inline with what they told the players would happen. Although some people wouldnt have gotten the best deal (those who paid 40) but they wouldnt be able to say they were lied to.

Random.4691:

Those that purchased the game after Anet insinuated they needed to should get more than a refund. It is not the same as them saying “oh there’s an expansion coming out that MIGHT require me to purchase the game, I think I’ll go buy it”.

They purchased it because that is what it appeared they were being told needed to happen. They shouldn’t lose their progression, gem purchases, names, and whatever else they have acquired based solely on the fact that Anet is pretty bad at communicating.

this is true, but since anet has no backbone set up to be able to handle this type of transaction, they will probably just say forget those guys.

Celtic Lady.3729:

Since they view it as a pre-purchase bonus for new players, they don’t consider it content that existing players are paying for or needing. They view it as you paying $50 for HoT alone.

its not a prepurchase bonus, they will not be selling the core game any more. Its the new version of the game. They only want to sell one version of the game going forward. the prepurchase bonus parts are the minis and whatnot.

they are basically saying their is no upgrade, just buy the new game and you can use your old save data.

dlonie.6547:

ArenaNet has a major problem communicating with their players. They act like it’s impossible to have a good relationship with their customers and keep them informed about, well, pretty much anything concerning their product. They forbid their employees to discuss anything about the future of the game (outside of fluff marketing promos), to the point that even their own employees are fed up with it. They refuse to discuss even the simplest details with us or even mention if undocumented game changes are bugs or intentional.

And then we don’t trust them when they ask us to purchase their xpac blind (on faith, with many, many details left to reveal), and blow up at them as if they were some faceless corporate entity.

Hmm….think there might be some connection?

That said — I admit I’m one of the most negative people around on the forums, but I’m really saddened to hear that people have been lashing out at the devs, artists, etc personally.

Rage at the company, rage at the policies, rage at those who set them — but the people working in the trenches are not the ones who are creating this environment of distrust and frustration.

If they were allowed to, I have a feeling the people working on the game’s content would be very excited to talk with us about their work and maybe even be open to constructive criticism and suggestions. Perhaps if they were allowed to talk with us, we wouldn’t feel this giant disconnect between them and us.

This game had amazing potential and obviously a lot of talented, awesome people working on it. It’s a shame they refuse to embrace their community and treat them as if they valued their support.

It’s way past time to lift the obnoxious “don’t talk about anything not in live” policy. The community reaction to ArenaNet’s announcements has been consistently getting worse, and this trend is only going to continue as long as they insist on maintaining the enormous divide between developers and players.

Normally i would be with you but based on current events im beginning to see why they cant talk about anything.

Its not because the players are childish, its because the company has some serious problems with following through, and with long term vision.

They told people they were going to sell an expansion, and now they changed thier minds, and arent selling an expansion any more. They are selling a stand alone game. It sucks that they dont know what they are commiting to, and what they arent. But thats the reality of how the company is currently working.

Nekosumii.7852:

phys.7689:

Nekosumii.7852:

What you people need to realize is that they’re doing this so they can still be competitive. They’re offering the xpac with the base game to basically say “hey you can get the original game AND the xpac so you can get some more bang for your buck” this game isn’t sub based, they need to be able to keep getting new players in so they can keep their income from ebbing to the point they can’t stay afloat. I’d say they should probably just have some kind of compensation since everyone’s making such a big fuzz over this…

you are right, they know that heart of thorns to a new player is not worth 50 bucks alone. They know that a guild wars player places a higher value on HoT. The miscalculation may have been how much of a higher value does the core player place on it.

as well as pricing it at 50 for the standalone makes the core player crystalize the value of both together.

No matter how you slice it, its bad marketing. They should have had the combined game at 60 and the expansion at 40, if only to maintain the illusion that the base game was worth 60.
truth is most of their money is going to come from people who already purchased, they should have built their marketing strategy around older players perceptions of things, rather than new players.

they can give a discount on the combined game later. It would have been better to have 30% of new players waiting for a discount than have 30% of old players waiting for a discount, since they have probably gotten most of the new players they are going to get by now.

I agree, I never said it was a good business move but I was just getting annoyed that people were just immediately getting kitteny over this rather than atleast trying to understand Anet’s rationale behind it.

im not really attacking you, im just saying they apparently guessed wrong on the percieved value of the expansion for older playersers

Celtic Lady.3729:

Isn’t the original GW2 still available on Amazon for those that want only the core game?

amazon has older copies they have to sell. This is not really relevant. Figure that if a new shmuck buys it on amazon, he will likely promply return it if he realizes he can get the new version for the same price.

their may be a market for people who just want the game cheaper, if its cheaper. But anet isnt producing any more core packages. it is effectively no longer officially being sold by the manufacturer

Nekosumii.7852:

What you people need to realize is that they’re doing this so they can still be competitive. They’re offering the xpac with the base game to basically say “hey you can get the original game AND the xpac so you can get some more bang for your buck” this game isn’t sub based, they need to be able to keep getting new players in so they can keep their income from ebbing to the point they can’t stay afloat. I’d say they should probably just have some kind of compensation since everyone’s making such a big fuzz over this…

you are right, they know that heart of thorns to a new player is not worth 50 bucks alone. They know that a guild wars player places a higher value on HoT. The miscalculation may have been how much of a higher value does the core player place on it.

as well as pricing it at 50 for the standalone makes the core player crystalize the value of both together.

No matter how you slice it, its bad marketing. They should have had the combined game at 60 and the expansion at 40, if only to maintain the illusion that the base game was worth 60.
truth is most of their money is going to come from people who already purchased, they should have built their marketing strategy around older players perceptions of things, rather than new players.

they can give a discount on the combined game later. It would have been better to have 30% of new players waiting for a discount than have 30% of old players waiting for a discount, since they have probably gotten most of the new players they are going to get by now.

Rhanoa.3960:

Bundles is very common

http://www.bundlestars.com/
http://freebiebundle.com/
https://www.humblebundle.com/

Go to Target, Walmart, even Office Max or Staples

You will find bundle games on their shelves…..Even Movies.

you can only call something a bundle, if you can buy it separately, if you cant buy it separately, it is one product.

you cannot buy the core alone
you cannot buy the expansion alone

it is not a bundle, it is one product

Alphard.6529:

phys.7689:

the truth is, they are right in that the fans are willing to pay more for less.

How are veterans paying more when they’ve been playing the game for so long? The extra they paid is for the extra they played! When the game gets discounted, does everyone suddenly complain they paid more for the same thing?

they are objectively paying more for less.
we arent talking about past purchases, or what value they got out of the old purchase.

we are talking about right now.

its like if you want to buy new wheels for your rollerskates. you go to the roller skate store, and they guy will only give let you install the wheels if you pay the price for the whole new rollerskates.
and if he installs it, he keeps the new shoe part and your old wheels.

they objectively get less for the same price because they already own much of what is being sold.

that is the main reason the marketing is trying to get people to believe the idea that others are getting the core free, because it obscures the fact that someone who already owns the game is not getting the same product.

Flakkenmarsh.6573:

xbutcherx.3861:

$50 / 48 months =$1.08 per month, not a bad trade but still. I don’t think the content is big enough to pay $50 again and I don’t need the core game.

The core game would be having a character. You need the core game. This is why it’s included.

Example (posted in another thread):

Microsoft: We have a new XBox for $200.
User: I’ve never had an XBox! Would I have to buy the original XBox first though?
Microsoft: Not at all. This new XBox is based on the original, so all the features of the original are included in this new version.
User2: I already have an XBox. Do I really have to buy the new one? Can’t I just buy.. parts of it?
Microsoft: …

then what you are saying here, is you cannot buy an expansion or an upgrade to your xbox.
they are in fact selling the new Xbox to you, not an upgrade.

and then the other problem with your analogy is that they actually do sell your the parts. they dont give you a new Xbox.

so the third part goes like this
fine, so give me a new Xbox, ill give my old one to my friend, or maybe ill put in the gameroom.
Sorry if you already own the Xbox, you must buy the xbox parts at the cost of the new xbox in order to make use of your xbox live account and games.

Alphard.6529:

phys.7689:

its a question of do you want to buy the new standalone, as well as, is the amount of new content worth the price of the standalone game.

The new standalone is priced at what Anet think their new “expansion” (or whatever you want to call it) content (+maybe future living world content) is worth. Whether you agree to this is up to you to decide.

its not the price that they think their new content is worth, because they are not offering the core game for free, or the new content separately

well i should change that.

its the price they think current people will pay to get the new content (the fans)

and its the price they think new players would be willing to pay to get everything that guild wars has to offer.

the truth is, they are right in that the fans are willing to pay more for less. Where they may have miscalculated (maybe they didnt) is how much more they are willing to pay for how much less.

Alphard.6529:

phys.7689:

the base games value goes down because the people who want it goes down.

No no, Anet knew their game was worth $30, so they generated hype and made people pay for it twice, don’t you see?? Later when there was not so much demand, they dropped the price!! Outrageous! puts tin foil hat on

phys.7689:

means that it not an expansion.
Marketing speak is not real speak.

What you call it is not important, you don’t pay for the word. You pay for the content they’ve announced. If you feel it’s worth it – buy it, otherwise don’t, or wait for more info.

the value of the content is the most important thing yes.

however people are pointing out that if it was actually was an expansion, as they are marketing it as, it wouldnt cost as much as the standalone game.

its not a question of do you want to get an expansion
its a question of do you want to buy the new standalone, as well as, is the amount of new content worth the price of the standalone game.

Alphard.6529:

Omocha.4931:

- a player buys the game 35 days ago (let’s not get into the very recent recording of ANet’s refusing to do what they promised to do, which is sort out the accounts of people purchasing the game less than 30 days ago). Regardless if it was because of HoT or not, now (s)he’ll have to buy it again, because there can be only one GW2 version.

If they bought the game 35 days ago, they’re not veterans. And the situation is not too different from buying the game for $40 right before Anet does a $10 sale. Yes, it sucks, but why is it more objectionable then the sales?

because people directly asked them before purchasing would they have to buy the base game before they buy the expansion, and they said yes.

they then made that answer a part of their FAQ posted publicly online, as an answer to that question for all who were wondering if it was worth their time/money to buy now.

for these people they shouldnt be giving refunds, they should be giving them upgrades at the price of the difference between the sale price and the new game price.

Flakkenmarsh.6573:

Players that bought the game less than a month ago can claim refunds. For those that have played for little over a month, I agree, it sucks.

But we payed $50 to play the game for 3 years, now we’re paying another $50 to play for 3 more years.
New players are therefore also only paying for the next 3 years.

It should not be seen as base + expac, but rather …new base.

a refunded means you wasted your time. Because you lose your account and progress. Many people would have just waited for HoT had they not told them directly that their would be no point in waiting for HoT.

Alphard.6529:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

So Anet has said so…. that’s your argument? Well to many consumers it looks quite differently. But hey, no harm, no foul. If the core game is included for free, then give us existing players a free copy of the game.

Okay let me ask you this. Let’s say you bought the original GW2 for $60. Some time later they discounted the game to $40/$20/$10.

I’ve got 2 theories about the discount, let me know which one is more likely:

1). The game was really worth $30, but they made people who paid $60 pay for other people’s games.

2) The game was worth $60, but they sell it at a lower price later to bring in more people, because it makes business sense.

Are you outraged already?

the base games value goes down because the people who want it goes down.

but its irrelevant anyhow.
the fact that HoT is a standalone game, which costs as much as standalone games
and the fact that you cannot upgrade your account for less than the cost of the standalone game, means that it not an expansion.

its very simple.
they cant say its even a “bundle” unless it contains two products you can buy separately.

can you buy an upgrade to your game separately? no? then its not an expansion. its a new game. thats it.

Marketing speak is not real speak.

Alphard.6529:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

You don’t see anything shady about selling an expansion + the base game for free, but the expansion happens to have the same price as a full game?

You don’t see how that would make existing players feel like they are paying for the core game twice, but getting just the expansion? At least the new players are getting both, so for them the $50 bucks are justified. But for existing players? Where did our free game go? If we’re not getting that, then the price should be lowered for us.

Some players may feel they are paying for the base game a second time, but that’s simply not true, as Anet have confirmed. Maybe you think they’re lying. This makes no sense. What makes sense is giving the base game for free to new players, which is exactly what they’ve done.

Doesn’t WoW’s latest expansion also cost $50? Yes, you can argue the price is too high. It’s up to you to decide whether it’s worth it. Just keep in mind you’re also paying for all the free future living world/feature pack content you’ll be getting over the next years.

You are getting caught in market speak.
this has already happened before.
its a new game. thats what it means
if DLC costs as much as a new game
in order to buy it, you have to buy the stand alone game
then it is a new game.

you can play around with the words, but the facts are facts.
being able to use your old save data in a new game does not make it an expansion.

WoWs expansion was an expensive expansion because it requires the purchase of the base game and then the expansion

for your info, you can buy the base wow game for 10 bucks the base includes all older expansions.
and the expansion for 29.99
the fact the players can just pay for the expansion alone, is essentially what makes it an expansion.

Now there is another debate on the value, which is the most important thing, but the fact is, its no longer an expansion, it is the new and only version of the game going forward.

Dondarrion.2748:

You may argue its size; but it’s an expansion.

Now stop it with this stupid thread.

No, its not an expansion.

just like marvel vs capcom 3 ultimate isnt expansion.

if you cant pay for the upgrade seperately it isnt really an expansion.

its a new product.

take a look at heavenswward
they sell collected edition for 60
they sell the expansion for 40
if they only sold the collected edition, then there would be no expansion, just a new product to buy.

vincecontix.1264:

Guys $50 is the price of the expansion only those who pre-purchase get the the core game from free. Those who pre-order aren’t paying for the the core gw2 game.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/HoT-Price-Feedback-Base-game-included-merged
New players getting the core game for free is a good thing for the game overall.

WoodenPotatoes Review of the HoT per-purchase sums up things well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUtMGS3ezLI

Now if there is something to discuss if would be $50 price tag, though it is a bit high its kinda standard price for a lot of expansions.

they should get the game at the base games price.

and old players should be able to get an expansion at an expansions price.

an expansion should not cost as much as the initial product UNLESS it is as big as the initial product.

basically they should have created a collected version for like 50-60 bucks(with hot and core), and sold an expansion, or upgrade to people for some lesser value based on how much content they were adding/or extras they were offering.

Its not genius, its fairly common, and smart.

http://www.amazon.com/Ultra-Street-Fighter-IV-Digital/dp/B00JAK0P7Y if you have the original
http://www.amazon.com/Ultra-Street-Fighter-Online-Game/dp/B00JAK0NUS/ref=sr_1_1_twi_2_sof?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1434703817&sr=1-1&keywords=ultra+streetfighter+4
if you dont.

see you CAN do both at once

other game Standard Edition upgrade

PlayStation®3 & PlayStation®4
Package – $39.99 / Digital Download – $39.99
Windows®
Package – $39.99 / Digital Download – $39.99

An all-in-one bundle that includes the standard edition of both (upgrade and core)

PlayStation®3 & PlayStation®4
Package – $59.99 / Digital Download – $59.99
Windows®
Package – $59.99 / Digital Download – $59.99
Mac OS
Digital Download – $59.99

WOW a price for a new player that equals a normal new game cost with both! and a price for people who are upgrading that costs less! CRAZY!

Aidenwolf.5964:

Anet included GW2 in HoT for new players to entice them to visit Tyria which makes sense. New players likely would be turned off by buying 2 full games to try out HoT. They don’t want players separated by a Paywall in GW2 which would divide the Player Base and as LS3 (or LS4 really as HoT is LS3) will certainly be located in the HoT map.

Where Anet made a serious error imo and the opinion of many others is they decided to gouge the current players just that little bit extra by not including a character slot or two as they did in every expansion in GW save EOTN with the base HoT expansion. I mean seriously, there is zero incentive for a current player to pre purchase the base package.

What this decision has led to is a bit of a paradox considering their intentions were unity of the Player Base, as “veteran” player I won’t be buying the expansion as it is offered currently and as I see no signs that Anet will change their minds (which they are entitled not to, it is their game) I will be locked out behind a Paywall after buying a collector’s edition of GW2 and a new player won’t be. This certainly isn’t Anet’s intention and I’m sure they would love for everyone to join in the fun, but I’m a customer and they’re a business not my friends, and I’m unhappy paying the same and getting less than a new player.

I still plan on playing GW2 and fighting all your revenants with my old school non mastery toons and enjoying the game I paid $150 for that I can play forever while Anet gives that game away for free to the new guys. If the game goes on sale I’ll snatch it up but until then as a consumer I’ll play what I’ve already paid for until they turn the servers off.

yeah this occured to me as well.
and there will be a decent amount of people who dont switch over for some time. In the original phantasy star online, which ended up working similarly(though for better reasons), i remember they had a decent amount of vanilla players till the game closed.

i think what it all boils down to, is they overestimated how much current players would be comfortable paying for the expansion as they have currently promoted it.