Guild Wars 2

Vox Hollow.2736:

Well, let’s hold on a second here.

A lot of this discussion basically boils down to our collective understanding of AI and our ideas for how to design around it’s restrictions. Since it’s so central to the discussion, let’s just take a minute to talk about AI.

                            Sandwhich Making Sequence
                                       /           |                        \
Get bread out of fridge     Select Flavor     Put flavor between two slices bread
                                                       /         \
                                BLT Sequence            PBJ Random Sequence
                           /            |          \                             |           \
     Get Bacon    Get Lettuce   Get Tomato      Get PB    Get Jelly

The AI goes through this performing the actions listed. They generally perform these actions from top to down and then left to right within each level. Whether an action was successful or unsuccessful determines what the AI will perform next, and the node directly above the actions says how many actions in each group are necessary to go through.
- A Sequence will try to do everything directly under in order from left to right
- A Select it’ll try to accomplish just one thing directly under it moving from left to right until it’s successful once.
- A Random is a Select or Sequence that goes through the things under it randomly instead of left to right. Can be Weighted to prefer some things more than others.

This AI sequence:
Will get bread out of the fridge.
It’ll then select a flavor.
Since BLT is first, it’ll get Bacon, then Lettuce, then Tomato. If it was able to get all these things successfully, it moves on to putting these flavors between two slices of bread.
If we failed getting Lettuce, it would be unsuccessful and move on to PBJ. It’ll randomly select either PB or Jelly, and then get the remaining one. It’ll then move to the putting these flavors between two slices of bread.

That’s a very broad description of the industry’s boilerplate 15year-old StateMachine/BehaviorTree AI in so far as office smalltalk can take me.

It has a sense of Priorities, it can Follow-up one action with another, it can create reactions that happen ‘Mostly-but-not-every-time’ . There is just so much stuff between an absolute like ‘IF Player x:THEN mob y’ and the pure chaos of Completely Random. It’s pretty robust, really!

the difference is i think they should have more if then situations between the player and the enemy. AKA player npc interation.

Others say the best thing is an overall prescripted plan that has a lot of details.

Boss is basically going to the exact same things until you get him to a new phase.

Too me, it seems they are saying
for bosses, its better to have the boss have set a set pattern that you have to properly respond to.

i say thats ok, for some encounters

But its also good to have encounters where what happens is partially based on the interaction of the player and the npc.

NikeEU.7690:

phys.7689:

the point of enemy evasion/blocks/movement in a game is to make it so you have to “catch” the enemy for maximum benefit. instead of just unleashing your maximum dps at will, or after a specific interval, you have to force the enemy to react, and then react when it puts itself in a disadvantegous situation.

And this is your idea of good pve boss design? Really?

sure if they design so its just a random invulnerability with no consequences/resources/etc then it would be stupid, but it would be just as stupid for them to have the enemy have an aoe damage skill that hits everyone in the room no matter what they do randomly.

evasion in a fight no more equals random unstoppable limitless dodges
than
damage equals random unstoppable limitless damage.

I don’t even have the least understanding what this means. Is this some non-existant either/or scenario? These aren’t our only two options. This false dilemma you’ve constructed is bizarre and completely irrelevant to the discussion.

We don’t really need to conjecturize, we have examples already in game. Lupicus is a boss designed how I suggest they be designed for one. Kohler is a boss designed like you would have it be with frequent evade frames until you CC or immob him. One is fun the other is annoying. You can be contrarian and say that KOhler is probably more fun to some people than Lupicus is, which while true is no different than saying some people prefer dirty dishwater to expensive wine and therefore we should offer more dirty dishwater for drink in restaurants.

kholer is not the way i would design an enemy that evades.

NikeEU.7690:

You can tell me my statements are opinions, as if that somehow invalidated them, but the fact is that my opinions are based on a lot of experience in this game and others. You don’t have to take my opinions as gospel, but by the same token you’d be a fool to think they were unfounded and be dismissive.

For what it’s worth, Kohler’s dodges and the CM archers and the inquest assassins and any other pve enemy with built in random dodges are objectively poor game design for all the reasons I and others outlined. As Spoj alluded to, boss mechanics without legitimate counterplay are stupid. Good PvE game design is based around the concept of question and answers. The boss asks a question and you either have the answer or you fail. the boss can ask a lot of questions. The boss can ask really hard questions. But they should still be questions. If there is no answer (lol auto evade every 3rd attack nothing you can do about it) that’s just uninteresting design and fake challenge.

like i said, if they design in like auto evade every X attacks, it would be fairly odd, because they already figured out that dodge should have a limited resource, and limited use for players, why would they give npcs guaranteed/unlimited ones? One would assume they would be even more limited, especially since players arent used to dealing with it.

the point of enemy evasion/blocks/movement in a game is to make it so you have to “catch” the enemy for maximum benefit. instead of just unleashing your maximum dps at will, or after a specific interval, you have to force the enemy to react, and then react when it puts itself in a disadvantegous situation.

sure if they design so its just a random invulnerability with no consequences/resources/etc then it would be stupid, but it would be just as stupid for them to have the enemy have an aoe damage skill that hits everyone in the room no matter what they do randomly.

evasion in a fight no more equals random unstoppable limitless dodges
than
damage equals random unstoppable limitless damage.

spoj.9672:

Yeah except theres a problem with dodges. They do not have tells. They evade as soon as they start. And theres no way to tell when a mob is going to dodge. You cannot counter that. You can only reduce the chance of it trolling you. Thats not fun and its not good design. Good design allows you to counter everything with skilled play and the right tools.

If you make a boss perform a tell and then evade. Thats different. I can maybe get behind that because it can be countered. But if the boss then tries to evade again immediately after the stun runs out then its just stupid and annoying.

some parts of combat are predictive, some parts are reactive.
if you are afraid of using your powerful skills/combos on a guy who can evade, you bait them, use attacks with lower damage/safe, or bait them, then when the enemy over commits you take advantage. This is the type of depth of combat that is missing when you go with orchestrated difficulty. Its simple, and deep, push and pull, act and react.

lets say an enemy has only 1 dodge on its endurance bar, recharges 1/10 seconds

you use immobilize skill;
outcome 1;
he gets hit by it, now you react quickly and unload a quick dps hit
if your team is coordinated, the other teamates stack on their longer duration/longer cooldown immobilizes to extend the opening for a longer dps burst.
outcome 2; he dodges it
now you can unload a bigger DPS hit, you baited his dodge, and you have 10 seconds of dodge free behavior.
if you got weakness on him before hand he has even longer.

so now, you have players having to react differently based on how the enemy decided to deal with something. they have to be ready to take advantage more easily. How well they can react, determines how good a burst they can get on the npc. It doesnt however destroy you not to handle it perfectly.

keep in mind, i wouldnt do this for every enemy. You vary enemy encounters just like you vary playstyles. Some guys dont dodge, but mitigate/block, some guys move a lot.

and not every enemy should obviously be that deep. You dont put super high brow mechanics on mobs people are supposed to terminate in moments, or tear through.

maha.7902:

opinion

do you enjoy not landing your spells because RNG decided the mob wanted to dodge?

because i’ll tell you I have never in my life enjoyed eviscerating a mob just for a giant “evaded” to appear.

or how about the CM archers that just spam evades for no reason?

opinion, many people enjoy kholer.

pretty sure “many people” either skip him or just sit in a corner, smash skills, roll their eyes at the “evaded” and just want him to hurry up and die.

CC him then use the big attacks.
now this npc is more able to defeated by skillfull use of DPS, than an npc who simply has 33% more HP. Also people playing must actually pay more attention and get greater gains for it.

so….

ice bow 5 and burst

which is the current state of dungeons now

except ice bow is OP and getting nerfed, and defiance bar may be up in the mix.
combine that with an enemy that moves somewhat.

and now for the big burst you have to either exhaust his evades, or coordinate CC, while coordinating your short term buffs so he is actually in the right place at the right time.

which is more in depth, and uses more skill sets than him standing there while you burst him.

once again, the goal is not to make an enemy that is indefeatable, the goal is to make an enemy that engages you, and make it so you have to earn your biggest dmg.

you ever play a fighting game?
with some practice you can pull off a multi hit combo against a stationary opponent in practice.
its not quite the same doing it against a moving NPC who hits back/blocks etc.

spoj.9672:

Mobs that dodge are annoying. Do you remember all the complaints about the dodging inquest at the start of season 2?

Now if a boss is going to heal or do a long channeled block. Thats different. Give the players the chance to interrupt those abilities. That way you have boss counters which can be countered. Dodges have no counter.

people complain about things all the time. thats not a reason for something being a good or bad idea, on that basis alone.

dodges are prevented by;
immobilize
stun
knockdowns

they are limited by
endurance regen aka time
mitigated by;
weakness

dlonie.6547:

Chasing kiting enemies is OMG fun.

/s

poor execution of an idea is poor execution of an idea.
Also some things just wont be liked by certain people, even if well executed. Some people like playing tag, and some people hate it.

MMOs are supposed to be big and varied. They shouldnt be designing content thats the same for everything. Making a couple of encounters play out differently isnt the end of the world

NikeEU.7690:

I already explained why enemies who dodge or snares are bad pve design. Try reading that again and catch up to the discussion and stop trolling.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/General-Dungeon-Discussion-Thread-Part-2/5077603

you keep refering to your own post and ignoring that you basically declare your personal opinions as incontrivertible fact.

PvE mobs that dodge, evade, or kite are inherently annoying.

opinion

When enemy mobs snare you it’s annoying because it very rarely means you’re going to die, it just delays the inevitable

that depends on the design of the encounter.
snare that can be followed by an attack, or change in tactics that causes you to die
Also, this is an action based game, if the snare was unavoidable, you might have a point, but going slower because you got caught/messed up is valid in combat. you also have condition clears, etc for when you do mess up.

By the same token there are plenty of mobs in GW2 that have built in evade (Kohler, CM archers etc) and they are simply annoying rather than fun.

opinion, many people enjoy kholer.

Let’s say a mob dodges 1/3rd of all attacks. OK, well how is that any different from just having 1/3rd more HP when all is said and done? It really isn’t. The end result is the same but it’s much more annoying for a player to miss with his skills than to land with his skills even if kill times are identical. People playing the game like their big flashy attacks and spells. They like seeing big numbers. If my choice was a boss who evaded every third attack and one with 33% more HP I’ll take the second one any day.

if they designed a mob that dodged every 3rd attack that would be odd, but once again you have simplified the game inaccurately.
the mob would have access to a certain amount of dodges per time frame. If he does dodge, you change your tactics with that in mind. If you want to force an offensive push, instead of waiting for the mob to dodge poorly, you make use of CC, or immobilize.
so an enemy that can dodge, now has multiple ways of being dealth with
bait the dodge then use your big attacks at the right time
CC him then use the big attacks.
now this npc is more able to defeated by skillfull use of DPS, than an npc who simply has 33% more HP. Also people playing must actually pay more attention and get greater gains for it.

I get that you like predetermined sequences of events, and all that. Like learning to play a song on the piano. Its cool, fun and exciting.
However, it is not the only type of difficulty. There is also jazz

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

phys.7689:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

phys.7689:

lordkrall.7241:

^Everything is very easy when you know how to do it.

not true

He does have a point though. With time and knowledge all things become ‘easy.’ Nothing is challenging forever. Hell, I remember when I thought Factions was hard. When I thought FoW and DoA were ‘challenging.’ It really didn’t take long to learn otherwise.

whether something becomes easy has to do with what that something is. there is a point at which you improve basics, and after that point its all about the actual thing at hand.

Even something that has ‘challenging’ mechanics though, like you’re talking about, will eventually just become routine after you do it enough times. Its difficulty hasn’t changed, and yes you still may end splattered all over the wall if you lag or misclick at an imopportune moment, but its not really ‘challenging’ anymore. Not in the way the OP is talking about. This is where ‘practice makes perfect’ comes from. However, there is also the additional facet of how challenging something is (or remains) has a lot to do with the player too.

i dont think so, concert pianists still spend great amounts of time practicing for a performance, and even then how good it is, is not guaranteed.

and even within the scope you guys are talking about, the reality is that there is a difference between something that you cannot lose, and something that you have to constantly pay attention to, and respond/react in order to win.

NikeEU.7690:

phys.7689:

Mightybird.6034:

So super well said from the other thread I had to quote it.

Personally I consider Lupi a great fight and he doesn’t act like a player. I want more fight’s like lupi. If one boss mob; multi stages and patterns of attack. if multiple mobs; synergystic abilities between them that makes a pattern but not player like kiting or snaring or dodging

*ahh had quoted NikeEU but it was too long.

Some people prefer that style, but its not inherrently better.

basically you dislike moving, because dodge isnt different than a skill that gives evasion/blocks or invuln, other than the fact that they change the positioning.

I think players should have to work to have an enemy let them stay in an advantageous position sometimes.

“dislike moving.”

If you’re going to misrepresent a position, please refrain from entering the discussion. If you’ve ever seen a modern raid in a raiding game the players are CONSTANTLY moving. No spot is ever safe for more than a handful of seconds. Modern raid design is all about moving. This has been explained to you before but you keep repeating the same incorrect statement so I assume you’re a troll.

So then whats your problem with an enemy that can dodge. or one that snares you when you mess up. Or one that kites?

and content in raids is not universal, refering to content in raids is like saying in books something happens.

most raids i have recently played only have moving at predetermined intervals. do X move now, do z move now, burn, etc.

Mightybird.6034:

So super well said from the other thread I had to quote it.

Personally I consider Lupi a great fight and he doesn’t act like a player. I want more fight’s like lupi. If one boss mob; multi stages and patterns of attack. if multiple mobs; synergystic abilities between them that makes a pattern but not player like kiting or snaring or dodging

*ahh had quoted NikeEU but it was too long.

Some people prefer that style, but its not inherrently better.

basically you dislike moving, because dodge isnt different than a skill that gives evasion/blocks or invuln, other than the fact that they change the positioning.

I think players should have to work to have an enemy let them stay in an advantageous position sometimes.

lordkrall.7241:

Jerus.4350:

Nope…

See there are different aspects of challenging, you can make something’s execution challenging. I’d point to Lupi solos. I can’t do it right now, but I do understand exactly how it should be done, I just end up too slow on dodge buttons or get jumbled up and confused on my rotation of defenses leaving me attempting to use toolkit block when it’s not available and I eat a hit. It has a high level of challenge for it’s execution.

And yet there are people that solo lupi without any sort of issues whatsoever. Ergo it is no longer challenging. When you have learned to do something it will no longer be challenging.

A bit like reading. When you start learning to read it is extremely challenging, but when you have learned to do it there is no challenge in it whatsoever.

Except there is challenge to reading depending on what you are reading, there is also multiple levels of understanding.

you think playoff basketball isnt challenging for an NBA player?
winning tournaments?
marathons?
writing a song?
drawing a picture?
writing a book?
gymnastics?
dance?

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

phys.7689:

lordkrall.7241:

^Everything is very easy when you know how to do it.

not true

He does have a point though. With time and knowledge all things become ‘easy.’ Nothing is challenging forever. Hell, I remember when I thought Factions was hard. When I thought FoW and DoA were ‘challenging.’ It really didn’t take long to learn otherwise.

whether something becomes easy has to do with what that something is. there is a point at which you improve basics, and after that point its all about the actual thing at hand.

lordkrall.7241:

^Everything is very easy when you know how to do it.

not true

Aazo.2841:

I honestly don’t have an issue as a WVW’er in purchasing an expansion, but I do have issue with having to grind PVE to bring all 9 of my 80’s back to competitive status for doing my WVW with those characters (aka.. the new mastery system/class skills).

My hope is that there will be alternatives to having to learn mushroom jumping and gliding skills to get the mastery’s needed for my competitive wvw play. Mind you I like exploring new maps and doing a little PVE from time to time, I just don’t find having to grind for skill sets to accomplish it fun. And that’s the fear I have of this new mastery system.

masteries wont effect WvW play, you may be thinking of hero points, which will require skill challenges.
masteries as of right now, is PVE progression

readability wise the game is very poor, and its not just big effects, which usually isnt that bad in 1-5 man teams, its the fact that they very rarely optimize enemy and player skills animations/hit times in conjunction with what they actually do.

the game is more about trial, error, just knowing the timing, rather than observing where an enemy attack lands/when the animation should hit.
Wildstar deals with this by creating indicators for everything, which does take you out immersion slightly, but it makes up for it by being extremely readable, so learning what happens and why it happened its about paying attention.

the other option would be way better animations/effects that clearly show what happens and accurate hit boxes, but i dont think its a skill set anet has staffed positions for, nor the desire to invest the time into dealing with.

NoTrigger.8396:

phys.7689:

NikeEU.7690:

Or you could just look at what well designed raid or dungeon bosses look like in other games. If you think I’m advocating static “everyone stack in one spot and don’t move for the duration of the fight” combat you clearly don’t understand.

i am not opposed to the type of orechestrated design you are talking about when it is well executed, but reactive and dynamic combat where you get your best benefits for properly reacting to/predicting/setting up your opponent is also the other means of good PVE design.

does this aoe pattern promote enough reactive gameplay for you?

note the aoes are moving in different directions -> clock wise and counter clock wise and you cant just run around the boss because the autoattacks will wreck you.
eat 1 tick of the aoe -> you die.

if i am reading what you are describing properly that would go under orchestrated, not that i have a problem with orchestrated, but you seem to be describing a situations where if everyone behaves as expected, you follow the pattern well.

reactive is more about benefiting from being able to identify, and react to what an opponent does.

spoj.9672:

Erm. You know they said that burn is getting nerfed because it will stack. I said maybe ethereal will be good. We do know confusion is getting two damage components. So that most likely means a tick and a bonus on skill use. So it could very well beat burning. And it also depends on the enemy. We might get more frequent attacking bosses in the future.

Also fire does not complete destroy it. Phalanx warrior makes fire fields mostly redundant mid fight. And its not like you cant use both fields in sequence to get burn and confusion. If there is a worthwhile use then the fields become good regardless how often others are used.

i think they will nerf mostly its durations, burning that isnt high dps, high base is kind of pointless, might as well be bleed.

also since its one field ar a time, and a limited amount of finishers, they are kind of competing with each other, and even if they werent directly, in terms of class balance, the guys with the better fields would need to have some balance against the guys with the niche fields.

anyhow some of the things they are suggesting may change may help things, or at least ease them.

Jerus.4350:

It’s not about making players feel crappy it’s about eliminating many options from being good at all. Why would you use Lava Font, Acid Bomb, Symbol of Wrath, Smite, Wells, or any other field damage skill if you get 1 tick then the enemy steps out?

In PVP they can be used to pressure and force position changes, but in PVE things aren’t as fluid and it’d take quite a feat of AI development to get a similar effect. I mean in PVP dropping a lava font might prompt your enemy to stop his attack to move, will we now be causing Lupi to stop his frenzied blast to get out of a Lava Font, seems quite powerful. And that’s why higher levels of AI can actually lead to an easier and more manipulative encounter than a more basic AI.

I do agree with Zelyhn in that there are mechanics that hinder PVE content based on their design. Not only the movement + attack thing, but also many abilities can be skipped through because NPCs seem to trigger their own phases instead of having them scripted to trigger even if they’re in the middle of an attack. For example Lupi phase skipping or Grawl Shaman.

That said I don’t really want a more PVP feeling PVE, I don’t really enjoy attrition based encounters. I simply don’t like how PVP is in this game. I wouldn’t mind some encounters or some enemies to fight in this style but I don’t want it to become the focus of content, just an addition.

I mean having some skirmishers coming at you unleashing a low damage but high hit count attack could be very interesting to promote the use of a lot of skills that are currently underutilized. Potentially have an enemy that does a low to medium damage warrior Axe5 taht we know we can just grab retal and let it help kill itself while we use Regen and maybe a water field (Or even potentially lifesteal through a dark field?) to recover from.

I don’t want every encounter to become this where I have to factor in X amount of damage that I WILL be taking (unless I range /cringe), I find the active attempt at perfection in a up close setting to be one of the major fun points of this game. But, the game could certainly use more variety.

you would use it, in combination with CC, or to set up a lose lose situation for enemies.
when you have to actually cripple/imobilize/knock/stun an enemy to take advantage them.
also, not all enemies would behave the same way. Some enemies should be the bruiser types, who are likely to take the dmg in order to pressure/kill you. Others are delicate and shouldnt seek to stand in the fire.

for example, a ranged npc has no logical reason to stand in the fire, whereas a warrior NPC would generally eat the dmg in order to kill you.

also keep in mind this isnt for every facet of the game. But if you are entering the game mode that is supposed to have the most challenging content, and an encounter designed to have a bunch of archers attacking you from varied positions, all run around the corner, and then stand in that one point blank spot so they can get cleaved at zero range, is kind of stupid.

im not saying every npc should behave in computationally advantageos ways all the time, but differing enemies should react differently, and more enemies should be grouped by complimentary playstyles rather than all being the same type.

NikeEU.7690:

Or you could just look at what well designed raid or dungeon bosses look like in other games. If you think I’m advocating static “everyone stack in one spot and don’t move for the duration of the fight” combat you clearly don’t understand.

i am not opposed to the type of orechestrated design you are talking about when it is well executed, but reactive and dynamic combat where you get your best benefits for properly reacting to/predicting/setting up your opponent is also the other means of good PVE design.

spoj.9672:

@phys
You kind of just outlined what i already said.

With the skipping thing there are alternatives already. What you are suggesting are simply extra choices in instances. So events and such in a huge elite zone (we dont have this type of content yet so it doesnt fit). But people value time and reward over most things. Time is a valuable resource. You cant really fix this unless you overbuff loot which will create farms that need to be nerfed into oblivion. Which means you are back to square one.

And i dont think its a bad thing that blasts are the best type of finisher. I do think 20% chance projectile finishers should be changed to 100%. And i do think whirls should be made more reliable. But other than that its fine. Theres always going to be a best way to do certain things.

As far as fields are concerned. Fire, smoke and lightning are on equal footing. Group swiftness and stealth is invaluable out of combat buffs. Might is invaluable in combat. They are different and opposite situations but that doesnt mean either is better than the other. In fact lightning field could be considered the best simply because swiftness is always useful. As far as other fields go water is niche but very useful. Light would be really good if whirls were more reliable to trigger the cleanse. Dark fields will be good with the break bar stuff. Ethereal will maybe be good with condi changes. Poison is niche for weakness and probably the only field that will stay bad.

ethereal will still be inferior with condi changes.

fire totally destroys it:

• aoe might: obvious benefits.
• fire aura: might stacks and burning when you get hit (increase of dps on getting hit)
• fire bolts: 328+.25xcondi dmg per bolt. now will stack.

ethereal field

• chaos aura: good boon is protection, other two not very useful with pve design. generally people would rather have might. confusion, less dmg than fire and may not even get a good proc, and blind is the good negative effect.
• confusion bolt 130+.2condi dmg per proc, lasts 5 seconds, which is currently generally one attack. Even if they change it to have a over time element and a on proc element, unless the overtime dps is noticeable, it will still be inferior to 1 second of burn.

ethereal is basically inferior to fire field. this only changes if it has a signifigant amount of DPS on the passive portion, OR monster attack more often.

which i would welcome, for some enemies.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

NikeEU.7690:

phys.7689:

NikeEU.7690:

Good PvE doesn’t require now, nor has it ever required in the past, good AI. The best raid bosses in the history of MMOs don’t even have what could be called AI. They just spit out their mechanics in a semi-scripted order and challenge you to deal with them or die. Better AI is what you ask for when you want PvE mobs to act like players, which really isn’t the strength of good PvE encounters in the first place.

Are you saying that the distinction, for you, is whether the enemy adapts to what the player is doing or not?

I would say good PVE design either has a really well designed script, that requires you to execute pretty well, and make you feel good when you do execute well, or having an enemy that better responds to player behaviors, or a combination of those things.

I will say GW2, in both styles is fairly lacking.

Please see this post as to why I find “make pve mobs behave like pvp players” to be a really dumb idea…

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/General-Dungeon-Discussion-Thread-Part-2/page/52#post5077603

You bring up some valid points in that post, but unless I skim-read too much I did not see anything about mobs voluntarily crippling themselves by refusing to move and attack at the same time.

This AI failure is what creates the largest imbalances between pvp and pve, fixing this would go a long way to make this game mode more interesting.

he is saying that mobs moving away from your coordinated burst, is annoying and shouldnt happen because it makes players feel crappy.

i personally think the type of coordinated super burn that players do now, should require more set up, or be available at specific times.
This may be where the break bar can come into strength in instanced content.

NikeEU.7690:

phys.7689:

NikeEU.7690:

Good PvE doesn’t require now, nor has it ever required in the past, good AI. The best raid bosses in the history of MMOs don’t even have what could be called AI. They just spit out their mechanics in a semi-scripted order and challenge you to deal with them or die. Better AI is what you ask for when you want PvE mobs to act like players, which really isn’t the strength of good PvE encounters in the first place.

Are you saying that the distinction, for you, is whether the enemy adapts to what the player is doing or not?

I would say good PVE design either has a really well designed script, that requires you to execute pretty well, and make you feel good when you do execute well, or having an enemy that better responds to player behaviors, or a combination of those things.

I will say GW2, in both styles is fairly lacking.

Please see this post as to why I find “make pve mobs behave like pvp players” to be a really dumb idea…

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/General-Dungeon-Discussion-Thread-Part-2/page/52#post5077603

you seem to have a preference for a certain type of fight, but i disagree that it is the most entertaining pve design.
I will say that if designers poorly execute certain mechanics, they will be annoying, but that is true of anything they do.

i also dont think that enemies that do things players dont like, if the player responds poorly, or doesnt use their skills well is a bad design.

also they dont need to design enemies that have a 50% chance to defeat players, but they should design enemies for high end content, that require players to use more of their available skill sets like movement, control, timing, strategy other than just offensive buffs and defensive negates.

basically what we have now in GW2 is its own version of tank and spank.
which you seem to be suggesting is the best PVE design, of which i disagree, though for some encounters it has its place.

NikeEU.7690:

Good PvE doesn’t require now, nor has it ever required in the past, good AI. The best raid bosses in the history of MMOs don’t even have what could be called AI. They just spit out their mechanics in a semi-scripted order and challenge you to deal with them or die. Better AI is what you ask for when you want PvE mobs to act like players, which really isn’t the strength of good PvE encounters in the first place.

Are you saying that the distinction, for you, is whether the enemy adapts to what the player is doing or not?

I would say good PVE design either has a really well designed script, that requires you to execute pretty well, and make you feel good when you do execute well, or having an enemy that better responds to player behaviors, or a combination of those things.

I will say GW2, in both styles is fairly lacking.

spoj.9672:

I dont agree with the last point. There are benefits. And thats reliability. Mob loot and slightly more difficult mobs could shift this either way. More difficult trash might encourage people to skip more. People are always going to value time. There are ways to solve this to a certain degree but i dont think its in anyway a serious problem.

mob loot is too crappy and killing more difficult enemies in instanced content is generally the worst way to get massive monster loot.
I am not saying skipping shouldnt be a thing, im saying it should only be one thing. They should have play types, with their own benefits that create a different type of way of playing at a high level, which will also increase the viablity of other playstyles, when its not primarily about fighting one big enemy.

possibilities: some instance specific random good drops;
special events (that are worthwhile to complete) that involve fighting groups well.
bonuses on completion for killing enemies (non respawning, or enemies designed to be avoided)
hidden events/bosses (that have value to beat) that trigger when you reach hard to skip areas.

many would still speed clear, and they should, but there should also be benefits, beyond monster drops, which are easier to get, and more plentiful in the open world.

spoj.9672:

Even if you fix those (and you cant fix them all). The problem will still be there. Because group interaction is important. Like i said the content isnt perfect. But as it stands its the necro that is the problem.

Finishers are ok to a certain degree. The problem with leaps is they often move you away from the group/field so even if the effects are good they arent perfect. You cant really change this because they wouldnt make sense if they were changed. Whirls have problems with reliability which could be fixed with enemy/ally tracking. Projectiles are fine. Blasts are fine. Its just blasts work better for buffing because you dont move. And projectiles have a more niche use.

Field balance is actually not too bad. Its just certain fields are only situational. With break bar changes dark fields should be much better. And with condition cap changing. Ethereal fields with projectile + whirl finishers could become a thing.

Not going to even respond to your third point. Its not worth getting into an arguement over.

Limited mob complexity is an issue. But even with more complex AI it wont really change anything. Groups will just use CC and blind spam to control the group. Just as they do already. It will simply become even more important.

I dont agree with the last point. There are benefits. And thats reliability. Mob loot and slightly more difficult mobs could shift this either way. More difficult trash might encourage people to skip more. People are always going to value time. There are ways to solve this to a certain degree but i dont think its in anyway a serious problem.

finishers:
leap finisher is almost always an inferior form of the blast finisher, you use leap because you get it for free/cheap.
the only time its actually something different(not an aura that does what the blast does but only if you get hit) is dazing strike, and lightning fields are fairly rare.

projectile finishers, could be useful, except they are designed where most projectile finishers are 20% chance, making them unreliable, and not really that great. the skills that are 100% finishers are usually on cooldowns too long to make good use of the meager effects of the finisher, which is generally balanced as if a lot of people were proccing at higher than 20% rate

Whirl finishers, would probably be better, but often hit nothing.

fields: based on the encounter design, most defensive fields are less useful, auras are generally really bad, for the same reason most people dont like necro support (mitigation is not a strong use)

3rd point: im not saying standing all in one spot shouldnt be a technique for controlling enemies, im saying it shouldnt be the only reliable way to control enemies, and also some enemies should basically make this type of play less advantageous. like in pvp, some enemies are strong at AOE group CC, or can negate predictable attacks (like prefering to stay 600 range whilst using Projectile blocking skills, or just moving around in the fight sometimes.
.
the fact that groups will be able to deal with enemies via CC and defensive skills, is fine. People should have to use CC and defensive skills to control opponents, different opponents to different degrees.

im not saying the game should make mechanics people cant win against, im saying the game should make mechanics where there are real choices/reasons/benefits for using more of the skills in general play. Yes it happens, sometimes, but not enough.

spoj.9672:

There are plenty of thematically correct things they could add to make the necro fit the current meta (accessible blasts, unique debuffs, high damage, gw1 style skills and group lifesteal which we are getting). It really is the reverse. Which do think is the real problem? A single class out of 8 that doesnt fit. Or a meta which fits all classes except one. Im going to say the necro is the problem.

The meta isnt perfect. But group interaction is always going to be the most valuable part of it. This is an MMO. Group play is the purpose of this type of game. We need to be valuable in a group. Something as simple as a single accessible blast finisher and a bit more damage can improve our standing dramatically in casual group situations.

i think the meta is a bigger fail.

• Blast finisher is too useful compared to all other finisher types
• field effectiveness is not balanced for the different fields
• Combat systems whereby the most effective control is standing all together in one spot
• enemies that are all too similar in attack speed, who dont have multiple skills to use.
• too much value on avoidance of enemies – im not against making skip mechanics, but they should balance the speed gained from skipping with some benefits or reasons to fight certain things.

i would say that the meta or rather the flaws in the combat design/encounter design are some of the main culprits.

spoj.9672:

Why do people always mention protection for necro. The only access to protection the necro has is spectral wall (will troll in PvE because of the fear). And Ritual of Protection. Which is totally useless and can barely be considered access to protection. I dont really see how 3 second protection on well use (which have long cooldowns) is any sort of viable form of protection. You spam 4 wells and get 12 seconds of protection. So good! /s

That trait should have always been wells pulse protection at the very least. But noone really cared because its such a bad trait in a bad line.

if you were placing spectral wall mostly for 9-12 seconds of renewable protection, you could place it where the enemy doesnt go, like right behind your team/self. My main beef with it, is the long cool down, and my general desire for less mitigation based gameplay.

Aenesthesia.1697:

phys.7689:

right now, most of the game mechanics do not meld well with necros. Once they design content that is more accessible, where what players can do for a group is valuable, people will be looking at classes in terms of what they can bring to the table.

Oh, it’s the reverse, actually.
Right now, necros don’t meld well with most of the game mechanics.

Blast finishers? only if you bring useless minions or not on demand (staff 4)
Combo fields? We have the most useless ones, and they tend to overwrite the useful ones limiting your damage output if you want to place them at the right time.
Offensive utility? Necros have zero.
Defensive utility? Protection only by sacrificing dps and negating the group’s ability to gain might via fire fields (might not be so bad if a PS warrior provides might).
Any other type of support? Blinds, might come handy for hard trash packs.
CCs: yes. But the problem is, CC is not effective against bosses. and, when it is, then elementalists provide the only cc the group needs.

Rather than saying that the whole game and all other professions don’t meld with necros, it’s quite obvious that the people designing necros went for something totally different. Something for another game. The result is a worthless profession for group content.

not disagreeing with everything you say here, but the key here is what necro isnt great for the current meta, which may change if they change monster behaviors, encounter design, CC effectiveness, Condition stacking.

point is they COULD thematically provide useful things, but not for the current meta.

For me the biggest problem with necro design(even if the meta changes and their stuff is more valuable), is it doesnt feel like its currently a great execution of most of the things they were going for.

I think reaper will be tighter design wise, but the core still feels a bit off.

spoj.9672:

Im predicting about 5 maps. Verdant Brink doesnt even have much of multiple biomes as far as we can see. And im guessing most maps are going to be more focused around one biome with a bit of branching into the others. Which means we need more than 3.

Besides we have an idea of where we will be going in the jungle. And based on the maps we have in gw1. It looks like a lot more than 3 even if they are big. We need to go to the heart of the jungle which is quite far from verdant brink. And weve seen from the trailer we are probably going to see the balth temple. Which is also far off from current maps. Theres also the bloodstone north of verdant brink which is very likely.

Usually expansions bring whole a whole continent of maps. Which is more than 10. So getting about 10 could still be considered “fewer maps”. Although i dont think it will be quite that much either. But 3 is way too little.

well i wont complain if there are more maps, and it would be good for elite skill attainment, in terms of entertainment if they had like 60 or more new challenges in the new area.

butttt when it comes to this type of stuff, in the past it seems like the lower limit of expectations is the best bet.

they probably will resume in June, for 3, then take a break then last 3 in july then they should probably be close to release hyping stuff. i would expect a late august early september release, but i think they are willing to push it back as far as x mas, if things arent ready.

spoj.9672:

Why does everyone think its only going to be 3 maps. They said less maps but more content per map. That doesnt mean its going to be that few. I doubt they would be able to do a complete story if its only 3 maps.

well they already said its only going to be a region, regions usually have like 6-8 zones, and we got 2 already, and they said that they were going to have less maps but more verticality, and more packed content.

So i would assume it would be very few maps.

As far as telling a story, almost all of living story 2 takes place in only two new maps. I doubt we will get much more story than last season was. In fact my guess is we ll get like half the story, with the rest to be released as living story updates.

spoj.9672:

15 challenges per map. And im fairly certain there will be more than 3 maps. Anyway. Even if its only 45 challenges in the new content. Thats a fairly big contribution towards the elite specs. Which will probably be about 100 hero points maximum.

did the last beta have 15 in it? i thought orr was from 9-12 per map. i would be expecting about 3 maps.

selan.8354:

Rayti.6531:

selan.8354:

…
all i want is that the new wvw map is first made optional until the whole wvw community got to test and play it properly. beta is not sufficient as many of us didnt farm pve for a beta key.
…

The beta key people farmed in PvE has nothing to do with testing the WvW map. There will be a separate beta for the WvW map – and the players for this beta will be selected based on their WvW activity.

selan.8354:

…
i can guarantee anet that wvw players will hate this map if they dont remove a lot of the complex pve elements and ai control they put in.
…

Since the maps will be tested by the most active WvW players (at least according to ANet), this remains to be seen. I however doubt that you can make any reliable statements on the complexity of PvE elements and AI control prior to playing on said map. I recommend waiting for the WvW beta to actually happen and form an opinion based on the outcome of the beta tests. I’m sure, based on your posts in this thread regading you being a true WvW player, that you will be selected to test the new WvW map.

they said that with eotm too. and honestly the new map looks exactly like eotm! and eotm is pve driven and has a ton of pve shrines and pve mobs. the preiviwe and trailers are enough to show that the new map is eotm 2.0. i can see already a ton of pve in it!

i was in eotm beta and me and others wrote to anet as a feedback that eotm was complicated and would favor ktrains because of the long distances u have to go just to get to your group and all the pve mobs and pve reward chests and also that all the pve elements were too much. now all wvw guilds that treat eotm as a joke! its a joke where we go trolling. my zergbusting group goes ther to kill pve scrubs over and over and over. we even spawncamp them and watch them cry and whisper to us that we were so evil and that they just want some karma.
thats what eotm is for us. we troll or level an alt up but we play serious in our borderlands and eb!
im telling u that this map is probably even worse than eotm because it has now even more jumping elements and places to troll and the meta will be only cc heavies that push people to their death and war/guard/revenent that have massive access to stability.

how is the pve shrines in EOTM any different than the PVE camps/guards in WvW?

spoj.9672:

Theres also going to be hero challenges in the new maps. So you really dont need to suffer through more than 65 hero challenges in the base game. I suspect there will be close to enough in the new maps to unlock the elite spec. And no matter what you say about PvE. Im sure you WvW’ers will want to at least try the new content.

i doubt it, unless its a lot less points.

even if each map has 10 challenges, that would need 6-9 new maps.
unless Hot hero challenges give more points (which is possible) i doubt you can get enough just from hot.

my guess is there will probably be like 30 or less new hero challenges.

Astralporing.1957:

phys.7689:

from a grandfathering standpoint, you may have some points

We’re talking here about nothing else except grandfathering. We seem to have reached agreement that the system is good for new players long ago. It’s the old players where it breaks.
Hint: do you know which type of players is more represented in this game?

the guy i responded too brought up new players and how its worse for them, it not. Its not even worse than the first system, because you get full unlock of skills/traits for slightly less skill points than you used to need for full unlock of just skills.

yeah, might be annoying have to go back for skill challenges, but we re going to end up doing them anyhow. 100, or 165, you will be going back regardless(for elite spec points) at the end of the day it isnt that big a deal.

and to be honest, although it was anets fault, the skill challenge system for progression was broken for some time. People never should have been able to have fully unlocked charachters who have never played any content in the game at all.

selan.8354:

what are u talking about? are u even playing wvw? what do u mean players dont fight eachother? we always always fight eachother. what kind of server are u on? we infact have a community ts we know when 1 map gets attacked and we all port over to defend. scouts tell us when a golemrush is on the way etc. i think u are on a very dead server or are being outblobbed by another server so much that the players only karmatrain. im in t2 atm and was in t3 before that and in both matchups we had great fights everywhere. often we even leave objectives to the enemy and prefer to fight against eachother than to cap the tower!

the current wvw maps do have hidden paths but they are not so complicated. and everyone can follow. the new map is eotm 2.0 and is a pve driven event map rather than a wvw map. eb will be queued to the max and the game will loose a lot of wvw players because eb cant handle t3 full map queues at the same time!

trust me every guild will check out the map and then move over to eb and try to stay there until map is made optional. it has too much pve elements and the environment is to dominant.

i said eotm is the place where i said players rarely fight each other, point being people do fight each other in WvW.

Klowde.9876:

Well for me, I’d rather buy a physical copy. My debit card is still linked to my Dad’s card, and although all the money on that card is money that I MADE, he doesn’t like me spending it on games. So i’d rather withdraw the cash, go to a store, and buy the physical copy. Also, I want the box. i dont have the original box, but I want to get the HoT box. Bet it’ll come with some neat stuff, like a little booklet or something xD

they put a lot less effort into packaging than they used to. I doubt anything except a collectors edition will have anything even slightly cool in it.

Lily.1935:

Too bad? honestly the new trait system is still better in the long run then the old system. You should be able to find what you want. Especially considering that allot of abilities are becoming baseline.

its not better, its a different system, but regardless it is happening so may as well accept it

Vakrir.4829:

Alright, so I’ve tried to just deal with this change without complaining, and I’ve done 65 skill challenges on 4 of my alts so far (of 12 characters minus my two 100%‘s), but if I still need 60 more skill points to get the new elite specialization on those 4 and 125 skill points on my other 6 characters, I think I’m going to be sick.

So far I’ve done 260 skill points out of 1250 needed to be back to where I was, and I’m completely exhausted. I’ve been doing this for about 5-6 hours, and the thought of putting 20-25 more hours (especially with classes I don’t like as much) of raw map completion grinding just to be back to where I started before this makes me shudder, not only for me but for everyone else who hasn’t even attempted this yet and especially for newer players who hardly know the maps, much less can map complete 10-15 of the areas without traits.

This should definitely be redone or removed. I’d even prefer the “go read a book” method that’s currently in place to having to continue this mind-melting work, and would further prefer the original system. My condolences to WvW’ers, this is much worse for you.

new players will get them while leveling, killing multiple birds with one stone, and they will have WAY more traits than new players under the current system have. The system is way less annoying than the last system. They will actually get skills, and traits, from leveling, and skill points will just push them over the top, or allow them more power than people used to have per level.

from a grandfathering standpoint, you may have some points, but game design wise, your crazy, having to play a charachter for 3 hours to achieve the maximum core skill cap is far from insane.

and playing for 4 hours before fully unlocking the new skill progression in an expansion is also comparitively nothing.

Tman.6349:

Zaklex.6308:

Wanze.8410:

I think we should close all dungeons as dungeon gold rewards are clearly the main culprit of this insane gold inflation and the reason why i cant get what i want right now.

Lol, that’s quite amusing coming from you, but to add on to the discussion, apparently the OP lives in a vacuum somewhere as there is RL flipping going on all the time…not necessarily with commodities, but certainly with stocks(and some commodities to an extent, all you ever need to do is look at the commodities markets). Wait, I stand corrected, one of the biggest money makers in the US right now is home flipping, though it has it’s risks just like any other type of flipping, there are a number of people that have invested in this market…I need to look to further than my own area to witness it, and as has been stated, as long as people are willing to pay the price there will always be people willing to buy and flip anything and everything(probably even including sex, though I wouldn’t touch that with a 100 ft pole).

Yes you do stand corrected, b/c, IRL, the percentage of ‘middlemen’ (flippers) is WAY higher than the amount of people actually producing goods (look at WalMart). For every factory that makes Nike shoes, there are hundreds of times more ‘retail stores’ that buy those shoes and sell them at a (highly) marked up value. To try to even compare ‘flipping’ to the real world is silly and ignorant and shows a complete lack of understanding of supply/demand AND/VS necessities/luxeries. These aspects of business are not even close to the same. #learntoeconomics

flippers are not analogous to walmart/retail stores. Retail stores provide a service, they are essentially distributors, advertisers, and analyze what a community wants and needs. Flippers would be most analogous to daily stock mock market traders

main difference i would say is the stock market is a game for stock market people. someone who needs to buy beef doesnt interact with the stock market. The stock market is also not the only means of trade.

The whole flipper thing is rather complex, it isnt as simple as flippers are great, or flippers suck. I will say flippers are mostly leeches, with velocity of goods supplied and traded, i dont think there ability to normalize the market is that valuable(it would normalize on its own, slightly slower), but they can only get away with the prices people are willing to pay/buy.

the biggest problems with flipping would probably be the accumulation of wealth, and disparities in earning potential across various gameplay types. (wealth disparities per player effort) But i havent played the TP in awhile, i dont currently know how the different earning potentials stack up versus other game types.

Harper.4173:

Firelysm.4967:

Crimson Clouds.4853:

The difference to TP flipping and your real world analogy is that in game, anybody has the ability to TP flip or undermine a TP flipper.

If you don’t want to buy your bread at 25 euros, put a bid in for less. If you don’t want to buy an item at an extortionate rate, don’t. Just be patient.

As expected, you miss understand the point.
People abuse the buy and sell option, and avoid playing the actual game.

Buy sell trade tax should be higher, so people would actually use trading post when they need it. People actually play trading post game at least 1-5 hour per day. Trading post flipping went so far, that almost every one does it even if they deny it, even myself, because you can earn 100x more gold in few hours that you would earn in 1 week.

And I desire to stop this, so people actually go out there, and use the purpose of exploring, so people would think as trading post as something that they use when they need it, not to abuse it for making gold.

And for your argument, every one can open own store and sell bread too.

If you consider using the trading post and making money there as a “means to avoid playing the game” what would you consider buying gold with gems then?
I can literally dump 10 USD or Euros into 800 gems which will be roughly 100 gold.
100 gold would be roughly 80 something dungeon runs.

Your argument is invalid – people can already avoid playing the game and still make gold.

What about crafting? I craft things which give me around 3 gold/day. It takes me under 5 minutes daily. Am I not playing the game?

You have too narrow a definition of what constitutes “playing the game”.

buying gold is exactly a means to avoid playing the game. It always has been. In fact thats how mike obrien described it initially.

He described it as a way for players who dont have a lot of time to progress in the game. Basically setting up a reason to trade between the people with tons of time, and the people with very little time, as long as they pay anet for the process.

The Trading Post is a different beast, because its in competition with ingame rewards/earning in terms of gaining the resource called gold.

selan.8354:

phys.7689:

Dante.1763:

phys.7689:

The person said they dont want vertical elements, or chokepoints, or complex terrain. If they dont want a square, what do they want?

people in WvW forums i have seen have been asking for new WvW maps and mechanics for years, so what should that entail?

Anyhow i already conceded, if people really want that, thats what they want. If he and you are right and thats what the people want out of WvW, then maybe anet should provide it. It may bore me, but im one guy.

Im kinda with you, im not big on WVW but the new maps might actually bring me in to playing it, time will tell though.

Ive actually played WvW a bit. It was somewhat fun, but it was also somewhat monotonus. Some of the things about the map design seem like they may have flaws, but the op here seems more against the very idea of change, or complexity within the large scale combat part of things (Terrain, chokepoints, objectives with varying values, coordinated assaults, etc) With that as the main complaint, i dont see how WvW can ever improve or be varied.

ok well u have played it a bit. i see your pov as a casual. many people didnt understand wvw. well but u also gotta understand where people that have played over 4k hours in wvw only. i played pve and leveld my first character. i did events but dont know much about fractals and dungeons eventhough i did do dungeon runs. i wouldnt be able to really give great feedback or understand your pve problems either…

well same here a wvw veteran sees the map and knows its pve dominated and too complex for what wvw is all about. for u u think oh its interesting… well u see it like that because u didnt connect to the game mode.

in spvp people want the map skyhammer also out for a good reason.

a wvw player doesnt want the environment to dominate the fights. ai seems to be dominating and the complex jumps only favors players that already like jumping puzzles they run with speed every day.
im honest i am probably the worst jumper in the game… took me 1.5 hours to do that weird jp in the asura place(sorry dont know the name of the map nor the puzzle). so yeah i dont wanna be useless in wvw because a stupid map dictates me how i have to play and how skilled my jumping is. im a skilled fighter/zergbuster and thats what wvw was for.

now anet takes a lot of that fun awya form us and turns wvw into a pve dominated area…. thats the problem. u dont like wvw? well stay in eotm then that map is perfect for pve players that dont really like the wvw part. and the new map can join eotm as an optional map.

environment is not PVE, pve stands for player versus enemy
EOTM isnt WvW, because the players rarely ever fight each other, and you are not teamed together with your world versus other world

You are overestimating the importance of jumping, specialized teams will take advantage of the jump mechanics, if it was hard, they would lose half their groups trying to do it. This is why they have multiple paths. The new maps also have more roles for groups.

People will learn how to use the environment to their advantage just like they have with the current WvW maps. Which also has hidden paths, short cuts, and environmental advantages.

after a couple weeks the better commanders will know how to lead teams in the zone. After about a month, most of the regulars will know a lot of the tricks, then it will come down to the intellegience of the leadership, and the personal skills of groups to either deal with the enemies advantages, or eliminate those advantages.

And when that gets too cerebral, people will take the simple paths that have less counters for an open fight.

Spurnshadow.3678:

@ Solori

OK. Truce.

One thing, though, how has Necro gotten more stab? I’ve just double checked. They have one ability in Knight Shroud that give one stack of stability that lasts 3 seconds on a 20 second CD. That’s nothing.

1 stack per second (3 second duration) on a skill with a 20 second cool down (in death shroud)
“Shroud yourself with dark armor that grants stability every second. You may shatter this armor to fear foes around you.”

Dante.1763:

phys.7689:

The person said they dont want vertical elements, or chokepoints, or complex terrain. If they dont want a square, what do they want?

people in WvW forums i have seen have been asking for new WvW maps and mechanics for years, so what should that entail?

Anyhow i already conceded, if people really want that, thats what they want. If he and you are right and thats what the people want out of WvW, then maybe anet should provide it. It may bore me, but im one guy.

Im kinda with you, im not big on WVW but the new maps might actually bring me in to playing it, time will tell though.

Ive actually played WvW a bit. It was somewhat fun, but it was also somewhat monotonus. Some of the things about the map design seem like they may have flaws, but the op here seems more against the very idea of change, or complexity within the large scale combat part of things (Terrain, chokepoints, objectives with varying values, coordinated assaults, etc) With that as the main complaint, i dont see how WvW can ever improve or be varied.

Spurnshadow.3678:

phys.7689:

Spurnshadow.3678:

phys.7689:

selan.8354:

if this was another eotm like map i wouldnt mind it so much, but this pve map is replacing our borderlands….please make eb bigger and increase the map cap cause once this map is forced upon us every true wvw guild will queue for eb. we hated eotm we wont like this map.

to be honest, the main problem with the eotm map is that it isnt wvw. Its not server based, the score doesnt matter.

i think people will enjoy playing with their groups and servers in new maps. The npcs, and buffs wont stop people from playing.

Yes, it will. I know a lot of people and a guild that has already stated that they will play the shiny and new map, just to experience it, but won’t stay. It’s easy to predict the strategies of the new map. Just go to the WvW forums and read all the threads about auto-upgrading.

I myself love this game, but this map is kinda like a bigkittento the WvW community. The op has this down pat.

auto upgrading and the new map arent really related.

So what your saying is what the WvW community wants is just one big square so they can fight without having to consider terrain, no objectives that effect anything? Just large open plains where players can clash for no reason?

well i guess it has an appeal for some, if thats really what the whole WvW community wants, maybe the next map will be tailored with that gamestyle in mind.

You are being insulting. Just because someone has real, valid concerns in the game doesn’t mean they want a big open square.

The person said they dont want vertical elements, or chokepoints, or complex terrain. If they dont want a square, what do they want?

people in WvW forums i have seen have been asking for new WvW maps and mechanics for years, so what should that entail?

Anyhow i already conceded, if people really want that, thats what they want. If he and you are right and thats what the people want out of WvW, then maybe anet should provide it. It may bore me, but im one guy.

Spurnshadow.3678:

phys.7689:

selan.8354:

if this was another eotm like map i wouldnt mind it so much, but this pve map is replacing our borderlands….please make eb bigger and increase the map cap cause once this map is forced upon us every true wvw guild will queue for eb. we hated eotm we wont like this map.

to be honest, the main problem with the eotm map is that it isnt wvw. Its not server based, the score doesnt matter.

i think people will enjoy playing with their groups and servers in new maps. The npcs, and buffs wont stop people from playing.

Yes, it will. I know a lot of people and a guild that has already stated that they will play the shiny and new map, just to experience it, but won’t stay. It’s easy to predict the strategies of the new map. Just go to the WvW forums and read all the threads about auto-upgrading.

I myself love this game, but this map is kinda like a bigkittento the WvW community. The op has this down pat.

auto upgrading and the new map arent really related.

So what your saying is what the WvW community wants is just one big square so they can fight without having to consider terrain, no objectives that effect anything? Just large open plains where players can clash for no reason?

well i guess it has an appeal for some, if thats really what the whole WvW community wants, maybe the next map will be tailored with that gamestyle in mind.

selan.8354:

Daywolf.2630:

I just want anet to cycle the maps, maybe even add another more simplistic map with almost no npc’s. For this map, after seeing it on ready up last month (looks good), I’ve been thinking of higher population caps too. Of course that doesn’t do anything for those servers where most of the wvw players transferred out of already. Only solution there would seem to be w+w vs w+w vs w+w hah

this would be ok. i think so the wvw players that enjoy hte eotm style can go to the new map and the wvw playerbase that wants to fight and zergbust gets respected by anet by having a simpler map with no pve content.

Its not really the pve you fear, its the more complex maps.

hidden paths, using the environment as a weapon. Success effected by controlling surrounding territory.

Its not really the pve you fear (which is minute) its the strategy, and the changing learning curve/learning the ins and outs of the land /territory.

The npc parts of it will not be any more of an issue than they are in wvw now.

even if they had zero npcs on the new map you would still be dissatisfied, because what you really dislike is mechanics

lava is not pve
falling is not pve
choke points is not pve
multiple paths is not pve
controlling certain land for benefits is not pve

these things fall under strategy/tactics

CETheLucid.3964:

“Man, we need more meaningful content. These updates every two weeks are paltry. They should take their time and make an expansions worth of content.”
_

“Man, we haven’t had new content in so very long! What are they doing? Why can’t they release like a little bit of something every now and then, like, maybe every two weeks?

That would be pretty sweet. Man, when are we gonna get something new?!?!!!!"

like anything its neither white nor black, its about finding the right balance.

people probably want monthly, or bi monthly updates of decent size, with an expansion every 1-2 years.
thats been working for most developers for awhile now.

it can be done

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/special/patchnote_log/

Daddar.5971:

WvW players like me have been focusing on WvW for a looooooong time. The new system was announced only recently. Without a crystal ball, none of us could have known what A-net would do. The’choice’ was not ours to make. If it were, traits would be unlockable in WvW (just as they have been).

yeah, problem is you are wrong. before they announced the change, i have two charachters with world completion, and 6 charachters with 10-20% world completion.

Im just willing to accept that if i want to progress the charachters i have not done skill challenges on, i can go out and do it.

While i dont think setting back is going to go over well, the reality is its completely fair(fair in terms of one type of player compared to another type). They give you progress based on work done. Some people did it, some people have not. Its going to also be that way with core mastery points. They will have some that are based on existing achievements, and they will be retroactive.

Every body who wants those mastery points will have to do it once, some people will have already done whatevers needed, and some people will not.

You have this fantasy that everyone who isnt going crazy already has unlocked every skill point on all their alts. Its not really true, people play the system, and the system gave very little benefit or reason to do skill points other than world completion before. Many people who pve dont really focus on world complete, they hunt loot, do dungeons, events, guild activities. There are times i walked right past a skill point.

thing is, its not really too much to ask, if i actually enjoy playing a class, playing it for 3-4 hours isnt going to drive me crazy.