Guild Wars 2

Condi skill are generally less avoidable and ignore defense. They really shouldnt be as strong as direct dmg.
Not only that but it essentially guts builds in order to deal with it. When you need like 3 different types of condi clear you eliminate a lot of playstyles.

Coulter.2315:

It obliterated worthless choices and gave you access to meaningful ones – you have more valid choices, it increased your freedom…

You didnt need a different system in order to make better traits.
For ex

Hard to catch used to suck, was a random teleport now its a stun break+100 endurance. It could have been what it is now under any system.

Dont conflate better trait design with the system itself

Meaningful choice has nothing to do with the specialization system

Wanze.8410:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

It might not be so much that it would effect prices as much as people would rather farm it directly off of plant nodes. They want a “sure thing” rather than a chance to get it.

I think most people just want direct nodes because they want damask to be cheaper, not because they will be directly able to farm it.

They want nodes so that IF they dont want to pay the price asked, they have another option. People are more comfortable with prices if they feel they are choosing the price, or if they can clearly measure the value.

And yes an elastic supply doesnt guarantee lower prices. It just means the supply is more flexible when adapting to changes in demand.

Wanze.8410:

Mojo Gris Gris.5941:

“Cloth harvesting nodes wont change prices”

Wanze, is that really you?

Wanze.8410:

I dont really have a lack of gold in game and I play wvw several hours a day.

Yeah, it’s you.

Never expected that declaration to come from you, but since you’re on the subject…

Wanze.8410:

As we all know, wood nodes are scattered all over tyria and can be directly farmed.
But if people dont go out to farm the more expensive wood directly, why do people expect them to go out and farm cloth directly?

kratan.4619:

I wouldn’t care what the price of cloth would be if we had this, because I can reliably go and harvest it myself and have no need to check the prices the smae as I don’t for wood or ore.

Bearing these two things in mind, I find myself agreeing with kratan. I don’t so much care about the price, as I do about being able to go get it myself. So, if it wouldn’t lower prices to have them in game, would it break anything to add them? Keep in mind, I don’t want to see the economy thrown out of whack more than it already may be. I’m curious about your analysis though. (also curious about the opinion of one JS)

Aside from the argument of resource allocation from the dev team, what do you think?

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

tl;dr cloth nodes are demonstrably not a simple fix to a perceived cloth-supply issue

There probably is really no simple fix, but would it help?

If cloth nodes were implemented, they would have to take it off alot of other loot tables to balance out the supply. I should have mentioned that in my OP.

Right now, cloth can hardly be target farmed, the mayority of supply is basically a side product of killing mobs, we cant really alter our gameplay to significantly push our droprate for cloth, like we can do for wood. We also cant really avoid getting it either.

So if we would shift cloth drops to an easier targetable approach and for example nerf the salvage rate on light armor, I doubt that the overall price for damask would go down.

Only a small amount of people would actually go out every day and farm their cloth for damask because timewise, it would still be more effective to just follow the zerg in SW and buy whatever cloth you didnt get there.

You reasoning is circular, you are basically saying,

If they added nodes AND rebalnced drop rates such that the prices didnt change, then the prices would stay the same.

To be clear im not saying prices are guaranteed to get lower with nodes, but that has more to do with factors like supply demand how much people can earn farming gold and how much they save farming materials.

In some situations nodes will have no effect in others it will have a large effect.

The main thing nodes does is create a more elastic supply, and set a more direct value for cloth based on desire and effort

kleisthenes.6247:

There are some things I don’t like with the new system:

- If you don’t have maxed out points for skills you will lose some utility skills (meaning it messes with the builds you used, NOT COOL).
- Being forced into a certain kind of trait wheel (got wilderness survival but wanted markmanship, again NOT COOL).
- The higher traits and skills in the wheels aren’t necessarily better. Feels like some of it is just “thrown in there”.
- Horrible UI, very disorganized (at least the utility skills just slapped together on the left side).

I’m just wondering when people will get respec so they can take the utility skills they want while considering the new system and picking the trait spec line they actually want.

You wont get a reset, but leveling or getting hero challenges will allow you to unlock everything

bob.5680:

Well, a quick review of the responses here seems to support more like the changes than didn’t. So, OP, who exactly were you speaking for in your original post? Seems like it may simply be the minority from what I see here.

Yea i think he will be a minority, because this change boosted peoples power greatly. It also made herds people into more powerful builds. Aaand any player who started in the last year was suffering from an oppressive trait aquisition system.

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

People complaining about the cloth prices are a frequent reoccurence on the forums.

One suggestion that I hear often is to introduce harvesting nodes for cloth in the open world to bring in more supply of cloth and bring prices down.

However, wood prices have been on the rise for a long time now and actually are more expensive than cloth by now.
1 each kitten cloth scrap costs you 15.8s while 1 each kitten wood logs costs you 16.3s.

As we all know, wood nodes are scattered all over tyria and can be directly farmed.
But if people dont go out to farm the more expensive wood directly, why do people expect them to go out and farm cloth directly?

Its not about fixing prices, its about the price representing a “fair” value.

A person buying wood is paying a price they think its worth not to do it themselves. Since cloth isnt targetable they often feel isnt a fair value.

All that aside, either there is a huge demand spike, or the economy has inflated if hrd wood is 16 silver. In either case it becomes are poor point for your premise

Games are boring if all core mats have near-identical acquisition requirements. People can farm cloth through a variety of methods. The difference is that none of them are ‘direct’ as going to a node, pressing a button, and waiting.

Similarly, Wanze’s point about nodes not being the (entire) answer is still valid, especially if the reason for the price increase is a demand spike. Ancient Wood is just as easily farmed today as it was before any spike and people aren’t (apparently) choosing to do so. That means, the vast majority of the current market is made up of those who would still rather pay someone else to farm it. It is likely that this would also be true for cloth nodes, too.

tl;dr cloth nodes are demonstrably not a simple fix to a perceived cloth-supply issue

Ancient wood is not as easily farmed as it used to be, megaserver changed it.

Also he was apparently packaging teirs in his analysis.

And any good with a more elastic supply responds better to price spikes.

Whether the methods are the same is irrelevant. You could create a different method completely, and still have it be directly obtainable.

His analysis is flawed regardless because it doesnt consider how much and for what its needed.

If you would have bothered to check the price evolution of the different wood logs you would have noticed that ancient wood is the log whose price has been the most stable in the last 2 months. The spike in wood value more came from the other tiers and those are still easily farmable with megaservers.

I dont think ancient wood is relevant to anything. I was merely pointing out ancient wood is not a representive of the other wood teirs.

Aggregating the values of different products is one of the big problems with your analysis

The new system is inelastic and for many jobs doesnt have enough options.

They simply dont have enough space for jobs with diverse builds.

Also there wont be mich variation once people play with it a bit.

It really will come down to specializations for for diversity, i hope they can release at least 2 more per class fairly quickly, but i doubt it.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

People complaining about the cloth prices are a frequent reoccurence on the forums.

One suggestion that I hear often is to introduce harvesting nodes for cloth in the open world to bring in more supply of cloth and bring prices down.

However, wood prices have been on the rise for a long time now and actually are more expensive than cloth by now.
1 each kitten cloth scrap costs you 15.8s while 1 each kitten wood logs costs you 16.3s.

As we all know, wood nodes are scattered all over tyria and can be directly farmed.
But if people dont go out to farm the more expensive wood directly, why do people expect them to go out and farm cloth directly?

Its not about fixing prices, its about the price representing a “fair” value.

A person buying wood is paying a price they think its worth not to do it themselves. Since cloth isnt targetable they often feel isnt a fair value.

All that aside, either there is a huge demand spike, or the economy has inflated if hrd wood is 16 silver. In either case it becomes are poor point for your premise

Games are boring if all core mats have near-identical acquisition requirements. People can farm cloth through a variety of methods. The difference is that none of them are ‘direct’ as going to a node, pressing a button, and waiting.

Similarly, Wanze’s point about nodes not being the (entire) answer is still valid, especially if the reason for the price increase is a demand spike. Ancient Wood is just as easily farmed today as it was before any spike and people aren’t (apparently) choosing to do so. That means, the vast majority of the current market is made up of those who would still rather pay someone else to farm it. It is likely that this would also be true for cloth nodes, too.

tl;dr cloth nodes are demonstrably not a simple fix to a perceived cloth-supply issue

Ancient wood is not as easily farmed as it used to be, megaserver changed it.

Also he was apparently packaging teirs in his analysis.

And any good with a more elastic supply responds better to demand spikes

Whether the methods are the same is irrelevant. You could create a different method completely, and still have it be directly obtainable.

His analysis is flawed regardless because it doesnt consider how much and for what its needed.

Wanze.8410:

People complaining about the cloth prices are a frequent reoccurence on the forums.

One suggestion that I hear often is to introduce harvesting nodes for cloth in the open world to bring in more supply of cloth and bring prices down.

However, wood prices have been on the rise for a long time now and actually are more expensive than cloth by now.
1 each kitten cloth scrap costs you 15.8s while 1 each kitten wood logs costs you 16.3s.

As we all know, wood nodes are scattered all over tyria and can be directly farmed.
But if people dont go out to farm the more expensive wood directly, why do people expect them to go out and farm cloth directly?

Its not about fixing prices, its about the price representing a “fair” value.

A person buying wood is paying a price they think its worth not to do it themselves. Since cloth isnt targetable they often feel isnt a fair value.

All that aside, either there is a huge demand spike, or the economy has inflated if hrd wood is 16 silver. In either case it becomes are poor point for your premise

Not saying you are wrong for wanting it, but they basically decided they arent selling expansions, just new game versions. Like windows 8 or 10 or xp. They expect everyone to buy the new software.

And thats currently their plan for the forseeable future. Your only options are buy the new game or wait for a sale and buy the new game

Jahroots.6791:

I don’t actually understand what you, and others of like mind, want out of this game. Do fights need to last a specific amount of time in order for you to enjoy them?

It basically comes down to, what you do has to matter. If stuff is gonna die near instantly with no effort, starts to feel like what you do doesnt matter.

So its not so much about time spent per enemy, more about whether there is any depth to a fight.

Most enemies in castlevania die in one hit, but how well you deal with them determines the games outcome

gavyne.6847:

Lévis.5489:

The only two bad things:

*Burning is too strong.
*Quickness as a stackable boon

Toning Quickness down could help tame the burst a bit. I thought it was a bit too good to be true of a boon myself.

Quickness only increases auto attack damage by 50% if things are dying any faster that 75% then quickness probably isnt the reason

Its probably condi dmg buffs and general class buffs. As well as less weak builds existing and stat from armor effects

Taku.6352:

So much hyperbole on the forums right now.

I assume you mean exaggeration. Hyperbole is figurative language that people are supposed innately understand is not meant to be actual.

i was actually just thinking about this, with the new specializations release. Having nice features is cool, but ultimately it comes down to having interesting things to do. They got the new specs, and i cant really make myself care, because there is nothing new to do with the specs.

Soo the expansion is going to come down to what new things to do are there?

and i also am thinking they have to let go of this core world mentality, i like that i can still get some joy out of old zones, but there needs to be a lot more new and exciting in this game soon, content is 3 years old, and most of it wasnt that deep to begin with.

The op is actually completely correct. After release, new players will be screwed. If anyone thought we should get 1 slot before, it stands to reason people who buy after release should as well.

Not sure why its only a prepurchase offer. Perhaps they plan on also having it in the non prepurchase editions.

It is odd though

Galen Grey.4709:

We dont know for sure but I’d say this is part true. By their own admission they werent sure big updates (which they promised from day 1) would be rolled out as part of the living story or as part of an expansion so most likely big projects were developed in parallel with the living story that could either plug into it or bundled in an expansion.

cut for size

• 1, eotn had a completely new plotline, that introduced a totally new and different conflict, the one of an elder dragon. Each campaign had a seperate storyline, not a continuation of the previous.
  prophecies was about exodus of ascalonians and the rise of a lich lord
  factions was about the vengeance and madness of shiro
  nightfall was about the hidden god and his plan for world domination
  eotn was about the awakening of the dragons and the beginning of a new era.
  by continuation, i dont mean events that happened after previous events, i mean the overall plotline and story is resolved.
  This plotline is directly the continuation of season 2, nothing was resolved in season 2, this is part of the storyline about the rise of mordremoth and the hidden origin of the sylvari.
• The zones of EOTN were fairly different than zones you had access to before. you had total new architecture and style with asura, with norn, dwarf and a more fleshed out char culture( which up to that point was basically just fires and bones)

• based on what is currently available in fractals/and the mastery name reveals, i highly doubt it will be the type of horizontal thing you are speaking of, but im just making educated guess here.
• guild halls/systems needs to be a system that any person can take part in, otherwise it would split guilds between people with HoT and people without HoT. This is not a good system to be expansion based, because guilds already exist and have connection that this may sever.
• if they didnt revamp the system, the skills/traits/weapons would be in too many different builds, and increase the options too greatly.

• giving the game away as one package makes a huge difference, it means that the core game is a dying breed. If they sell the old core separtely there will undoubtedly be a growing amount of people who just have the core. What they do by basically remaking the core is they insure that core users is something which can only decrease with time. Lets say core costs 20 bucks, many people will say hmm, 20 bucks is the right price, but 50 bucks is too much. So people would continue to buy core without considering hot, especially since core is more expansive and has everything you need. In the long run, this means they can consider core only players less in their calculations.

basically the reality is that HoT is mostly a version update in its implementation. Its not, overall designed with an idea of having a separate experience for people to buy into. Many of the changes it aims to make are core game design shifts.
take a look at gw1, its campaigns, and even the expansion were designed to be separate adventures in the universe of guild wars.

some parts of Hot are fairly self contained, others, not so much.

Daddar.5971:

They made the right call after all. If you have excess skill challenges done, then you just get more spirit shards. You see, it does make sense to give feedback. I don’t think this has a real downside, despite the incessant posts of a few trolls to the contrary.

thats not what they said.

and you i dont see why you feel the need to attack anyone. Theres always a something to consider with any solution.
feedback is good, now the feedback should turn to what should they do with the 65 extra skill points they didnt want players to have.

What has a strong value, but doesnt feel like its required to be at max effeciency, that most players would want to pursue.

spirit shards isnt a good idea imo, spirit shards have a lot less value than they want skill points to have, or else they would never havve separated the two currencies.

mtpelion.4562:

Complete deregulation leads to the most efficient markets, however our relatively new “sensibilities” find some aspects of efficient markets “unethical” so we try to craft regulations to combat those aspects. This usually leads to severe unintended consequences and rarely adequately addresses the aspects sought.

not true at all.
complete deregulation leads to extremely ineffecient markets. Capitalism only works if parties play by the rules.
some examples of extremely ineffecient things
monopolies
collusion

Unregulated capitalism, even with those things in mind tends to lead to huge heights and crushing falls, which overall isnt really the most effecient economy either.

MiniEquine.6014:

phys.7689:

Bettik.4982:

And finally the answer. Turns out ‘grand-fathering’ in wasn’t so impossible after all: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Skill-points-and-Spirit-Shards/first#post5187859

actually thats not grandfathering, they basically gave everyone everything.

Its a possible solution, the main draw back will be how they handle having too many skill points.

Its possible they will increase the amount needed to unlock/get the specializations. However it does resolve the issue of how to handle past accounts. Not great for the long term, but sometimes you cant put a new system in without breaking some things

Having too many skill points might not be so bad though. It would mean that you wouldn’t have to finish a World Completion to unlock everything, just like how you could unlock hero challenges while leveling to have everything unlocked before level 80.

if they didnt care if you have too many it would be fine, but they do. from their old plan i think they dont intend you have to world complete, but they want you to have to do a number of them to get elite spec progress. my guess is about 60-90, and that they will probably have a decent portion of that in the new maps. I think they want people to have only up to 100 extra if they do everything in the game and unlock everything.

which basically means they would have enough for the next spec, but as they buy it, new skill points will be needed before the next spec after that is enacted.

i just hope the dont go with the simple answer and up the req for elite specs to compensate.

Bettik.4982:

And finally the answer. Turns out ‘grand-fathering’ in wasn’t so impossible after all: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Skill-points-and-Spirit-Shards/first#post5187859

actually thats not grandfathering, they basically gave everyone everything.

Its a possible solution, the main draw back will be how they handle having too many skill points.

Its possible they will increase the amount needed to unlock/get the specializations. However it does resolve the issue of how to handle past accounts. Not great for the long term, but sometimes you cant put a new system in without breaking some things

my suggestion for the excess hero points?
unique skill/charachter animations for certain abilities, though i know it wont happen.

It can be an npc who sells it to you,

getting all skill challenges for core can cause him to offer you a challenging fight (like liadri)
which unlocks a unique mini and a title. The mini mimes you when using skills perhaps. (no dmg just looks)

just ideas

camcallahan.7035:

phys.7689:

not really
many changes are because they feel they are necessary for the future of the game.

this is one of those things,
the primary reason for the change is to make a system that is more easily expandable for specializations, and to make it easier for them to balance.

on day one, most players, many of whom barely visit the forums, and dont really understand things till they see them themselves, will be faced with all their traits gone, many of them changed, a whole new system, its likely some may have to go out and get skill points.

in the long run, it may be usefull, but for awhile? i predict a lot of growing pains and uncomfortability.

for mant people change is not so good.

if im wrong im fine with that, but this is my prediction

All I asked was if the devs had a reason for not advertising it as a Feature Pack, with all last week being filled with blog posts about all of the changes. I wondered this simply because of the size and scope of the update and how they used that term in the past with updates of similar size and scope. It’s ultimately not an important distinction, I was only curious.

The reception of the update or anyones personal feelings towards it are irrelevant to this specific question.

you missed my point.
you only want to call something a feature if people are going to like it. Its bad marketing to do otherwise.

camcallahan.7035:

phys.7689:

because this change could go very poorly with players for awhile. advertising it as a good thing and it turning up bad is no good.

We can safely assume any update of any size the devs do because it is a “good thing” in their eyes so I have no idea what you mean.

Complete trait rework, a lot of UI changes, various currency reworks, skill/profession/stat changes, ascended armor/weapon recipes, condition changes PLUS new Lions Arch and who knows what else. Blog posts related to this update have sort of been mixed in with posts about stuff not coming out until Heart of Thorns (and in some cases it is unclear when certain things will be introduced), and it just seems odd it will include so many large changes but won’t be referred to as a Feature Pack like previously.

not really
many changes are because they feel they are necessary for the future of the game.

this is one of those things,
the primary reason for the change is to make a system that is more easily expandable for specializations, and to make it easier for them to balance.

on day one, most players, many of whom barely visit the forums, and dont really understand things till they see them themselves, will be faced with all their traits gone, many of them changed, a whole new system, its likely some may have to go out and get skill points.

in the long run, it may be usefull, but for awhile? i predict a lot of growing pains and uncomfortability.

for mant people change is not so good.

if im wrong im fine with that, but this is my prediction

Mooncaller.9634:

@Aidenwolf I’m not saying that the lack of content argument isn’t a valid reason not to pre-purchase or buy the expansion, I’m just saying that this is a very highly subjective topic and the threshold of “enough content for price” is an extremely moving target.
Also, no matter what the price is everyone gets the same expansion, there is no difference between a new account and an existing account when it comes to what is contained in the expansion.

@Manasa Devi I personally think they would have had a lot less scrutiny and controversy on their hands if they had included the character slot at the Standard price point. I think the lack of a character slot and the ambiguous language regarding the inclusion of the core game are what tipped off this kittenstorm for most of the people here.
Clearly stating that the core was included ONLY for new accounts and including the character slot would likely have prevented a lot of his debacle.
Granted, you would still likely have the debate about price vs. content (that was going to happen no matter what, especially with a pre-purchase with so little information yet out).
You would still have the argument over the FAQ change, though due to the lower amount of scrutiny probably a much smaller segment of the community would be aware of it or citing it as an issue.

I think the price + inclusion of core + lack of character slot put them under the microscope.
I think the FAQ change and lack of clarity regarding inclusion of the core game severely fanned the embers into a raging flame.

I for one am interested to see if they are willing to, and how well they can, walk back this kittenstorm and repair their relationship with a large segment of the community that I think we can all agree is a lot less trusting of ArenaNet than they were a week ago.

i think you are right that a lot of the issue came from their marketing making you think twice.

they created a lot of think twice moments
no release date for a full purchase was a big one for me.
then there was the no charachter slot
then there was the faq that leads to a profitable error
lack of actual info on the game

all coming together to make you very wary of the company. Making you really want to see if this was all a bunch of errors in judgement, or wether it is something more sinister.

heres what i would reccomend

• 1) an extremely public, possibly in game announcement and a system created to get people who bought the game after the announcement, HoT if they wish for the difference between the price they paid and the new coreHoT. It cant just be the people who are persistent with customer service, most customers will never be that. If its just the guys who try hard and harass customer service, it will seem like those scams where they get people to buy something and offer returns, knowing that most people wont return them.
• OR) create an expansion only upgrade, for less money, refund every pre-existing player who used the code on an existing account. (this will actually solve the issue of deceptive faq, because it would be true)
• 2) Offer items/bonuses/charachter slots to existing players who upgrade
• 3) explanation of how most of these issues were errors, or that after hearing the community they rethought some ideas/policies
• 4) IF the game is going to be content lite, explain what people are going to get now, and COMMIT to delivering some further development of the content with a assumed time frame (subject to change, but not 2 years later and behind a paywall like precursors)

People are pretty willing to throw their money at people the trust/like/give them something to believe in. right now, anet is coming off a bit shady, if that isnt their intent they should try hard to reverse that.

camcallahan.7035:

I have a question for devs:

Is there a reason this impressively massive update wasn’t presented to us as being a new Feature Pack?

because this change could go very poorly with players for awhile. advertising it as a good thing and it turning up bad is no good.

Test.8734:

Galen Grey.4709:

Besides we do know living story team was 20 people which leaves a lot of employees unaccounted for, they had to be working on something. There is no way the feature patch teams and pvp teams made up for the other 330 employees right?

LOL.

People are still saying that. Amazing.

Before the Living Story began, we were not getting as many updates as we did it with (which is basically to say that we got barely any update at all). Ergo, if the more complex Living Story required a team of 20 people, what came before it would require even less.

So… What do you think these other “310” people have been working since release? Are you going to say they have been working in the expansion for 3 years now? Wow, if in 3 years all they managed to make was 3 maps, they surely have some content problems.

Nope. The truth is, ArenaNet is poorly organized, so they have a lot of people yet produce very little. See the Glassdoor reviews – almost all of them mention management issues, how teams working in one thing are suddenly expected to make a 180° turn and throw away everything they had been working in.

HoT has been under production for a bit more than one year now. It probably was under production since less than one year from when it was announced. That and ArenaNet’s slow speed explain why it has so little content after all.

actually the truth is they took the large projects people were working for off the LS plan, and moved them to the expansion.
Much of this expansion content is very obviously not designed to work within an expansion frame work, and based on things they were already working on.

Precursors: now HoT, in development since 2 years ago
New progression system AKA masteries according to their talk, came about due to exploring precursor progression, aka was in development as something that was once supposed to be living world
The Story line: is essentially part of LS2 usually an expansion story explores a totally different storyline, because it is an expansion
the zones, usually an expansion visits new zones, these ones are part of the maguma region, which is part of LS2
The progression, new weapons have been in the consiousness of the devs since beta 1.

Essentially what the expansion did is took all these background projects that were already in development, increased their scope, and grouped them together as an expansion.

which is also why this expansion doesnt work that well as expansion, alot of its functionality needs to be incorporated into the base game.
masteries, HoT only, but they will effect fractal progression/power as well the core world
guild halls, dont really work unless you let core people join guilds, this is a core system.
WvW map change has to be core
specializations, can work sort of separtely, but it required a complete revamp to the whole trait system, if used without the revamp, it would have had to be core.

This is part of why they dont want to sell a core game at all, they will have enough problems already trying to deal with HoTs core systems.
Problem is they kind of took it for granted that existing customers would drop 50 dollars no matter what. The content in this expansion is fairly light, and appears on many fronts to be partially finished.

specializations: only one for now, but we ll add more!
guild halls: only 2 for now, but we ll add more
new legendaries: wont have every weapon for now, but we ll add more!
story: we plan to continue the living story for HoT users! (aka dont expect an extremely large story block on release)

If they had a large block of content linked to the expansion ready for release 50 wouldnt be so bad.

Lord Kuru.3685:

Perhaps Anet should have priced the expansion at $30 with no character slot for upgrades and $50 for new players.

Most vets are going to need a character slot so that’s effectively $40 for them, but the $30 is low enough that outrage is unlikely.

Of course, that doesn’t address the bait-and-switch which is a completely different problem altogether.

if they had a lower price for the expansion, they would not have had a bait and switch issue.
that issue was created by making hot into the new core game.

the most people could have complained about was missing the best sale price.

chemiclord.3978:

Devata is willfully ignorant of this fact. Cash shops exist in EVERY MMO, and they are NEVER going away. Sub MMOs have them. B2P and F2P MMOs have them. Even Devata’s beloved GW1 had a cash shop (to which Devata’s response tends to be an articulated version of “LALALALALA I CAN’T HEAR YOU!”).

But nope, there exists this “pure” MMO in Devata’s mind… one that only charges for the base game, has AAA level of graphics, never has a sub, and produces cheap expansions every six months to a year.

That the studio who produced such a game would go bankrupt within three years with current game development costs never seems to enter Devata’s mind.

its not no cash shop or cash shop, its a matter of degrees

sub cash shops i am familiar with have a lot less things in it, and a lot more things in game.

Straylight.7529:

Pretty Pixie.8603:

Your ‘Logic’ is illogical. It presumes that everyone that’s upset will actively post here. That’s not true.

No , I don’t assume that. See here:

mrstealth.6701:

mrstealth.6701:

But there are also a lot of players that are just as unhappy and not posting about it.

That is true. There are unhappy people out there who can’t/don’t want to post. But it’s more likely that they will complain opposed to unhappy or indifferent people who never complain. Therefore the people you see complaining on the forums are a fraction of an already small fraction. Therefore they must be in the minority.

……………………..

Pretty Pixie.8603:

What we do have is a large sample of very disgruntled customers. A statistical majority. If your illogical theory was true, no company would ever address the concerns of their forum communities.

And yet EAnet quickly backed out of their plans of charging individually for colored commander tags.

A large sample of very disgruntled customers is not a statistical majority. They’re just that: a large sample. Maybe a few hundreds of upset posters on the forums. That’s few compared to the hundreds of thousands you never hear of. Even if every single forum poster would be unhappy about the preorder they couldn’t reach a majority because the forum is such a small part compared to the entire player base on the planet.

your big mistake is assuming the people you have no information on at all, are not represented by a vocal minority.

it is theoretically possible that everyone you have not heard from is happy, it is also theoretically possible everyone you havent heard from is unhappy.

but the reality is this is one of the biggest controversies yet, that means its likely that more people are concerned with this than previous issues.

So people at anet have to take a guess, is it more likely that these are the only people that are upset? or are we messing with a signifigant portion the playerbase

signifigant doesnt need to be a majority by the way. If even 10% of people dont buy because of this, it means they would have been better off using a different plan. 20% would be a large loss compared to what they could have done.

its not about majorities, its about maximizing the sales/profits of your product, with the best price points and marketing.

most especially since, their profits are not only on sales, but on gem sales, and statistics show that the more people who are actively playing your game the more they will spend on gems.

basically they picked wrong, they put together the wrong packages/prices or this controversy wouldnt have occured at all. When you pick a good price point/market well you almost never get noticeable blowback. Even people who think its not feasible for them dont make a big enough fuss about it to cause this.

BolkovonHarnfeldt.1372:

Well, they must have known that (a lot of) people wouldn’t take too kindly to the price of the base expansion.
What I would have expected then is for them to throw in something to sweeten the deal, like, say, an included character slot if you already have an account. I’m pretty sure that would have quelled a lot of dissent (and probably the “we don’t get a new copy of the core game, like new players” outrage wouldn’t have started at all).
But they did nothing of that sort. Which might indicate they really need as much revenue as they can get (maybe the income from gem sales and sales to new players fell short, maybe the China adventure didn’t work as planned) and are willing to risk the kittenstorm in the hope it will eventually die down and a lot of people will eventually buy at the proposed price points.
It’s also interesting that they roll out a big update next Thursday – one week after the pricing announcement. Maybe they hope that with a new Lion’s Arch and the trait changes players will start talking about other things again.

i dunno the new specs is probably going to go over very poorly. I dont think its totally bad, but its a huge change, and people tend not to like that.

Decrypter.1785:

Im Confused i can purchase HOT on amazon for 28 quid ? is it legit ? its being sold by koch international on amazon

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Guild-Wars-Heart-Thorns-Purchase/dp/B010023XAQ/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1434863898&sr=1-1-spell&keywords=guild+wars+2+heart+of+thornes

its says pre order, not pre purchase

chemiclord.3978:

I think they put a price tag that they felt was on par with the rest of the “industry.”

I think at some point, someone within the company brought up the point that new players would probably balk at the idea of having to pay for two games just to be up to date, even if the core game was only $10.

I think someone high up the food chain thought that was a very good point, and so Arena.net had to do some quick reworking of the whole pre-purchase packages.

I think they expected some degree of backlash. I think they might have even expected THIS degree of backlash. But as to what they are doing about it right now inside closed doors… who knows? Maybe they’re expecting the noise to die down (like it usually has when the Internet revolts). Maybe they’re trying to put together some idea to “fix” things.

But one thing I KNOW is that you shouldn’t expect any “fix” (if one is coming) for some time.

the industry standard is 0-50, i actually only saw 50 one time, and it was WoW, and only the latest expansion.
so they priced it as much as the most expensive expansions that exist, not really the industry standard

Teon.5168:

phys.7689:

Ohoni.6057:

Then you have the other extreme end. Those that feel their initial $50 was a questionable investment, as they’re having troubles with the game, and not seeing enough change in the direction they want it to go.

I think that anyone who questions whether the initial $60 was a wise investment, they should just leave. I mean that’s just a glutton for punishment, if you don’t believe the initial purchase was worth it and yet are considering dropping another $50. I can just tell those people right now that they won’t be satisfied and I’d rather not hear them whining about it for the next year. Cut bait guys.

its not really a question of the initial investment, its a question of this investment right now.
50 dollars for what anet is selling right now. They already have the game, thats done. The question is what more do they get? what are they buying into in the future.

For a lot of people for various reasons, 50 dollars doesnt look like a good price for what they will get with the purchase of HoT. Or, they dont feel like they should be supporting the franchise as they currently see it at that price.

If that is the way that some people feel…..“what have you done for me lately”….then they should just wait until it releases. Check out what their friends say, what the reviews are like, and then, if they still don’t like it…..

As Ohoni said…….“cut bait”.

not sure what cut bait means, but yeah you will still hear people whining about it, the forums now have two types of customers Hot and Core, and core problems and Hot problems will be different, and both sides will be hearing the other sides griping.

Ohoni.6057:

Same it’s a Pre Purchase… so you dont think you know enough about the game yet? then wait till release, honestly they make it sound like ANET are forcing them to pre order HoT.

Yeah,l that’s really the dumbest part of this, people complaining that they “don’t know enough yet” to spend $50 on it, like it’s a now or never decision and it’s ANet’s fault for forcing them to make it. We knew considerably less about vanilla GW2 this time in 2012 when we were asked to spend $60 on it, and yet plenty of us did. If you honestly don’t feel that you know enough about HoT to pull the trigger, then just wait until you are comfortable with the purchase, whether that’s a month from now, or at launch, or a year after launch.

that actually is a more a complaint that anet would withold that info while selling people the item. Its not that they have to pay, its that anet would even ask for money before being able to tell people these things.

Which in all honesty, imo is correct. The first thing that struck me when i heard about the expansion was, is there a release date? They want people to prepurchase without a release date? Is that a thing now?

But its doesnt personally effect me, as you said i can just wait. However many people find it to be bad business to take money from people before coming to a firm agreement on what they can expect with that money. I have seen many optimistic buyers talking about what they are going to get with the expansion, and i notice that many of those things have never been guaranteed

i seen people talk about how they will get new dungeons
and many zones
or a whole new big personal story

Ohoni.6057:

Then you have the other extreme end. Those that feel their initial $50 was a questionable investment, as they’re having troubles with the game, and not seeing enough change in the direction they want it to go.

I think that anyone who questions whether the initial $60 was a wise investment, they should just leave. I mean that’s just a glutton for punishment, if you don’t believe the initial purchase was worth it and yet are considering dropping another $50. I can just tell those people right now that they won’t be satisfied and I’d rather not hear them whining about it for the next year. Cut bait guys.

its not really a question of the initial investment, its a question of this investment right now.
50 dollars for what anet is selling right now. They already have the game, thats done. The question is what more do they get? what are they buying into in the future.

For a lot of people for various reasons, 50 dollars doesnt look like a good price for what they will get with the purchase of HoT. Or, they dont feel like they should be supporting the franchise as they currently see it at that price.

Aberrant.6749:

phys.7689:

Sad Swordfish.9743:

I paid 143 gold for 800 gems. Now have a char slot Revernant. Pretty happy:)

Just letting folks know they can do that if they are frustrated they don’t have any slots left. I think its nice we have that option!
With silk being worth so much I made almost 300 gold by selling what I had in mah bank!

everyone can choose to work longer to pay for a higher cost. Thats doesnt really change the fact that you have to do it.

the gold you sold has a monetary value of around 11-12 dollars for anet.

Yup, the gem exchange is basically just a rl $->gold market. There would be no gems to buy with gold if no one bought gems with $ (A-net still gets their $). It is true that you have this as an option though.

its an option, but so is, work longer at work, or get your girlfriend to buy it for you. Doesnt change the cost, just changes how you choose to pay for it.

Rai.9625:

phys.7689:

yes if you go to a restaurant and they give you a fork to own if you buy a meal, then people who buy that meal should also be able to get the same fork to own.

especially if the item is sold as, Buy the early bird special and get a free fork to take home!

everyone who buys the special should be able to get the same fork, no matter how many forks they buy, how many they have at home, or how many sippy cups they drink from

That would be Ideal, though there is no “having rights” involved. And everyone should be allowed his opinion: My opinion, cool if I own no fork i get one and can eat. Oh, I own a fork, to bad that I wont get that promo gift fork… it would be nice if i could get a knife instead, but well. The meal is still worth it

Again MY OPINION! If you have another, I can understand that and I think you are right. If you don’t get it(the fork), you won’t go there anymore and you are saying so. Nothing wrong with that, as there is a chance, that you could (as unlikely as it may be) change something. I think that is a good thing.

what isn’t good: trying to ‘force’ others to take the same Point of View as yourself…

that is why i say: I’m fine with it as it is, if you are not, say so! Maybe it could change with enough voices. that is a good thing, no? Just don’t try to convert those who have another opinion, that is all^^

Edited PS: Though even my words could be interpreted as trying to convert you to see, that it is just about a personal PoV… xD

you can not care about a fork, but you cannot say that people who cannot get the same fork and want it are getting the same service as people who can get the fork.

you cannot say they arent treating customers differently for the same purchase at the same time.

the only point of view is how you feel about that.

Sad Swordfish.9743:

I paid 143 gold for 800 gems. Now have a char slot Revernant. Pretty happy:)

Just letting folks know they can do that if they are frustrated they don’t have any slots left. I think its nice we have that option!
With silk being worth so much I made almost 300 gold by selling what I had in mah bank!

everyone can choose to work longer to pay for a higher cost. Thats doesnt really change the fact that you have to do it.

the gold you sold has a monetary value of around 11-12 dollars for anet.

Ohoni.6057:

no a new account is 5 charachter slots, extra inventory space, extra dailies. If they are offering players HoT +CORE

But they are offering that to existing players as well, it’s just that we already have those. So existing players will be getting five character slots too, they just already have five characters slots so they won’t notice. If you mean they should get an additional five, for a total of ten, well no, they shouldn’t. The new players aren’t getting ten slots.

Now, you always have the option of getting the same deal that the new players are getting, of buying HoT and getting the core game, five characters, etc., it’s just on a separate account from the one you already had. Up to you, but personally I’m taking my existing account into HoT.

If the 50 dollars got me a hot upgrade, and 5 charachter slots, extra bank tabs, and 2x as much of all the daily limited crap, i wouldnt be complaining. i dont think most people would.

Really? You think? What if they also gave everyone a solid gold Rhytlok statue, 12 billion gems, and a moa with a top hat mini? You think maybe less people would complain if they did that too? Of course if they gave out more free stuff less people would complain. Greedy, entitled people always like free stuff. But that doesn’t mean that they’re owed that free stuff, or that they deserve to get it.

I’d like to get all that stuff too, but I don’t feel ANet owes it to me. I have what I paid for, I have the slots I paid for. If I want five more slots I can buy five more slots.

if anet is giving buy 1 get 1 free deals, i want it too, even if i have some at home already

Yeah, but it’s hard to compare goods and services like that. Ok, here’s an analogy, what about cable TV? Let’s say you have a cable TV subscription, and it’s some weird new model where you pay once and never have to pay again. So you’ve paid, and now you have basic cable for life.

And then years later, after you’ve already gotten years of enjoyment out of that cable TV package you long since paid for, they offer a premium channel bundle for the same price as your original bundle, where you get like HBO and Stars and Showtime. So you’d like that, and want to buy it, but you notice they also have a deal, new customers get that Premium bundle AND the basic cable bundle you already purchased, for the same total price.

This tweaks you off to no end, why should they get the thing you paid for several years ago and have been enjoying for all this time, and you get nothing? But at the same time, you don’t need the basic cable for free, since you already have the basic cable for free. You can’t do anything with two Fox News channels, you can barely do anything with one. You already have the free thing in your possession, they can’t give you any more of that thing.

this is not about the past, and what i got.
this is about the present and what i am getting now.

right now, new player buys the game, he gets 5 charachter slots, 1 bank tab, an expansion to Hot (which anet says is a seperate product)

i just get an expansion to hot, the fact that i previously bought one is irrelevant

returning customers get less value RIGHT NOW, thats the problem, its not about what they bought in the past or how things have devalued.

simply put anet wont give the free item (which has use no matter how many times you bought it in the past) to older players

Jongi.7612:

Rai.9625:

Jongi.7612:

Rai.9625:

Just to clarify… less rights?

With games sad as it is… you don’t have many rights. xD wrong words again.

Sorry that I do that, working in a communication heavy branch does that to people.

For the whole discussion it boils down to:
For the money: is it worth in your opinion.
If no you will say why (for example hell, they get more value than me, thats a principle thing and hard to argue, or not enough content yet for that money, i would consider if yxz was included)

You are all trying to argue about… taste and preferences, about principles. That will in no way get you anywhere and defeats the purpose of what you really want:

You want to give Anet a message: Not enough for my money (for different reasons), so that they can see that opinion

You are diluting what you want to get across with hasty words which will most likely give the wrong impression.

For example: Cambeleg just says: for 50 bucks I want (out of principle) the same value as newcomers. So either a price reduction or another promo gift would push me over the edge to prepurchase/order whatever.

Nothing wrong with that, no?

Another player said:
For 50bucks… the content shown so far seems way to less for me to consider it worth it. Maybe show alot more maps, say a number of new instances etc. And I will consider buying/prepurchase/order it for the money.

again, nothing wrong there

The thing is though, not everyone is saying that. They dont understand that when you pay for HoT thats what your getting. They however think because of a misunderstand that they should also get the core game free if they are a vet player already. They can do this if they make a new account and will end out ahead of the new players. ANet just needs to fix the wording on their product selection to say this because they already said it in the forums that new players will get the core game for free.

Existing players already got their monies worth. $60 bucks for everything that they got to experience and the free stuff that they received though they are ignoring that. They dont even bring up what they already experienced like the marionettes, scarlet battle, all the season 2 living story without having to pay 200 gems for each episode, boosts and so on. They just want it because someone else gets a free game without looking at everything.

Again… someone saying the same as I said, or maybe I hinted at: There are alot reasons for ppls not to buy.

Many ppl understand what they get, they are just not satisfied and voice it in a more ore less direct/effective way.

And honestly: You are the customer, it is always your choice to buy or not to buy. And if you say: hey that customer got that there for free, for the prices you tag, i want the same.
What is wrong with that. And there is nothing wrong with the seller saying: Sorry, only for new customers.
After that it is your choice to say and voice what you think of that: some will say: wow good idea/strategy
other might say: Hey I’m a regular and I think you should do the same for me or i won’t buy…. That is your choice and nothing wrong with that.

It is a choice you don’t have to do the same.

Because they arent really getting anything that a vet player has. Its along the lines of an earlier example I gave. Its like needing a fork to eat pasta, if you bring your own fork we will give you the pasta for the price listed, if you dont have a fork however we will provide one for you. People think though that just because someone didnt have a fork and the restaurant and they gave someone else a fork, they should in turn get one too. Its like a toddler that already has a sippy cup to drink out of, but when the other kid gets a sippy cup they in turn want that one. Its not like new players are getting all the new skins for free or something, they are just getting the core game because its needed to play HoT.

yes if you go to a restaurant and they give you a fork to own if you buy a meal, then people who buy that meal should also be able to get the same fork to own.

especially if the item is sold as, Buy the early bird special and get a free fork to take home!

everyone who buys the special should be able to get the same fork, no matter how many forks they buy, how many they have at home, or how many sippy cups they drink from

Straylight.7529:

yolo swaggins.2570:

Jongi.7612:

yolo swaggins.2570:

Straylight.7529:

No, the core game is free if you buy HoT. You only pay for the expansion. If you already have HoT you can just ignore that fact. If you don’t you can rejoice.

Then I am paying the same price for much less value than what other players are paying for. The core game might be free but then the players who are complaining already have the game so another free client doesn’t mean anything to them. That value is non-existant.

All that is left is the xpac.

yolo swaggins.2570:

New players are getting everything guild wars 2 has to offer plus a new map, a 9th profession and features for $50.

Old players are getting a new map, a 9th profession and features for $50.

No, your paying for HoT. New players arent getting EVERYTHING GW2 has to offer and thats what I have been trying to explain. They arent getting to experience what Vets already have, new players wont be able to experience no longer existing content. New players get pretty much a watered down old world where you have to pay to see anything past your personal story and a much lower amount of hours played. They get access to dungeons and such, crafting and world events and thats pretty much it.

I already listed the things each group is paying for. $50 for a map and another profession is a bad deal.

It’s going to be more than one map, though how many is currently unknown. You also get a new WvW borderland and a new pvp mode on it’s own new map.

the wvw map, though nice cannot be counted.
its replacing another map, which means they are as much removing something as adding something. They also could not make it HoT only without cutting core players from 3/4 of all maps

It is possible.
they may figure people will complain, but buy it anyhow

they may figure, there is no such thing as bad press. a lot of people now know about the package, and perhaps some new players will be like sounds like a good deal.

they may figure they can try out the price, then if there is an uproar, adjust it, and come out on top. And gain the benefits of being part of the news multiple times.

truth is, with a good enough apology, and sweeter deal, many people will be happy, and many will purchase

all that said?

they probably didnt think it would blow up like this, though its theoretically possible.

Ohoni.6057:

they made a consensus descion by continuing to support the product.

Yes, but in a world of less than infinite choices, that does not say “we all agree that we prefer subscriptions,” it just means “we all agree that we would prefer to play this game, for all its positives and negatives, than to not play it.” You have no evidence as to how the community actually feels about the pricing model itself, beyond that they don’t dislike it enough to stop playing the game.

see to YOU the gem store is inconsequential, to someone playing FFXIV the gem store is consequential. FFXIV is to able to deliver a product that is worth 12 dollars per month for them.

You have no metric for that. While I’m sure that at least some FF14 players genuinely prefer the sub model, there is no way of knowing exactly how many they are, without either directly polling them, or offering them the choice of playing the exact same game without subs and seeing which they choose.

many people would be HIGHLY offended if they asked for the same two plate special as the other guy is ordering and the restauranteer said, no you already ate enough.

Your analogy has gotten a little fuzzy here. Nobody is saying anyone has “ate enough.” But the point is that current players have absolutely no need for what ANet is giving to new players, because they already have it. I suppose they should just change their phrasing if it would make people happier, to make clear that existing players ALSO get the core game, just, you know, overlayed over what they’ve already got, so it’s not something they would actually notice.

no a new account is 5 charachter slots, extra inventory space, extra dailies. If they are offering players HoT +CORE
i want the extra core, to give to friends, get more charachters, more daily limited bonus, or extra inventory space.

Lets put it like this.
If the 50 dollars got me a hot upgrade, and 5 charachter slots, extra bank tabs, and 2x as much of all the daily limited crap, i wouldnt be complaining. i dont think most people would.

the usefulness of a new core account is not zero. why do you think many players bought extra accounts?

so yes, new players wanting a core account, or something of equal use is not entitlement, its actually asking for the same treatment for spending the same amount of money.

if anet is giving buy 1 get 1 free deals, i want it too, even if i have some at home already

Ohoni.6057:

people pay for ffxiv because the game is better for them without a gem store.

People pay for FF14 because they have to if they want to keep playing. Players are not given the choice to keep playing without paying a monthly fee, so if they enjoy the gameplay that FF14 provides, then they have to pay. Don’t try to portray it as some consensus decision among the community, the decision was entirely made by Squenix.

if a restauraunt SELLS one guy one plate of food for the same price he sells another player the same plate of food PLUS another plate of food

then yes he is being mean to the first guy

No, he is not. Not necessarily at least. He is only being mean if the first guy needs the plate they’re giving to the second man. In this case, players that already have the game, already have the game. They therefore do not need the game, because they already have it. So it is not “mean” of ANet to give new players the game that they do not have.

as for the sub fee, what you are paying for a sub fee for, is to avoid being nickel and dimed, or have a gem store designed game.

I’ve never felt that GW2’s design has nickle or dimed me, and I’ve certainly spent less on it than if I’d been paying a monthly fee. It’s certainly possible to do a poorly run cash shop, but that has no bearing on a discussion of GW2.

which is better monthly internet, or pay as you go internet? And note that whether you choose monthly internet or pay as you go, an MMO still costs around the same as an offline RPG

But that’s a poor comparison, because you don’t have to “pay as you go” with GW2. I mean, if the comparison was between a monthly fee or an hourly fee, I might go with the monthly if I felt that I would be playing enough to make that the better value. GW2 has neither though, it has the gem store, which is all inconsequential stuff to actually playing the game, so it would be like paying either a monthly fee for Internet OR getting unlimited free Internet, but having to pay for browser skins.

they made a consensus descion by continuing to support the product.
What they are saying is that, the way this game is, right now, the way that it is structured because i give you monthly fees, is valuable enough to me, that i will pay you.

If they changed the model, the game itself would change. There are many people who prefer subs to no subs/gem store. because at the end of the day all these games are out to make money, and they will get it in some fashion.

see to YOU the gem store is inconsequential, to someone playing FFXIV the gem store is consequential. FFXIV is to able to deliver a product that is worth 12 dollars per month for them.

also the restauranteer who decides whether his customer has had enough food, and charges them differently based on that treating them differently.

many people would be HIGHLY offended if they asked for the same two plate special as the other guy is ordering and the restauranteer said, no you already ate enough. ill take your 20 dollars but give you less food.

Ohoni.6057:

to be honest I think sub games make a huge mistake charging a sub at all, I am sure they always loose a few players due to that barrier.

Oh, certainly, I would never in a million years advocate for sub models in general, but if we’re specifically dealing with the pricing of an expansion, the guaranteed sub fees off all of those who do buy it can help offset the cost of the box itself.

they were not being nice to the people who already played the game, in fact they are being slightly mean to them. The expansion is more expensive than most other expansions, gives less over the initial copy, and they offer a free basic game to newcomers, but dont offer the same free basic game to veterans (or something of value)

nice to new players
mean to old players.

Not even remotely. It is not being “mean” to existing players to offer something nice to someone else. If a restaurant chooses to give some free food to the homeless it is not them “being mean” to their paying customers. They are taking a product with an arbitrary value (the original game) and offering it to new players. This does not in ANY way harm existing players, and in fact benefits them because these new players will help to fund the continued growth of the game. It is the players’ hissyfits that are “mean” in this scenario.

sub fees are parrallel to gem store offerings.

Only if players are required to buy $10 in gems each month to continue playing, otherwise they are two totally different things.

if a restauraunt SELLS one guy one plate of food for the same price he sells another player the same plate of food PLUS another plate of food

then yes he is being mean to the first guy

as for the sub fee, what you are paying for a sub fee for, is to avoid being nickel and dimed, or have a gem store designed game.

which is better monthly internet, or pay as you go internet? And note that whether you choose monthly internet or pay as you go, an MMO still costs around the same as an offline RPG

Galen Grey.4709:

phys.7689:

Ohoni.6057:

but the upgrade for ffxiv is 40.00 not 50 dollars
if the expansion followed the same model, GW2 would not be in this mess at all.

But then the following month you have to pay them $10 more dollars, so it’s back up to $50. Then the next month it’s $60, and so on. Honestly, trying to say that GW2 should have the same price for their expansion as a game with a monthly fee is just complete nonsense. At this point I kind of wish that they were offering a $40 version, BUT it comes with the same monthly fee attached as FF14, so if you buy that version, and stop paying them $10 each month, you’re locked out of the HoT content.

also, not to get distracted, but its irrelevant.
the fact is if they had priced it like FFXIV

• they still would have a package that is marketable and a good deal for newbies
• they would have not been giving different customers different service based on who they are
• they would not have had to refund players, or seem like they made a money grab
• would have less people complaining about content vs cost
• would not have this negative press and controversy

sub or not, they should have used a similar marketing strategy

but seriously this really makes me said, you’re probably absolutely right, not disagreeing with you but that doesnt change the fact on every single aspect (provided the content is there of course) Anets deal is better!

cheaper to get into, A LOT cheaper to play for years to come, cheaper for new players.

Even the core issue that Anet arent giving away a free slot with the basic version, thats less of a deal then not giving away a free month on all levels (its cheaper to buy the slot, slot is a one time cost, not everyone needs a slot absolutely everyone needs a sub)

yet time and time again people are saying we wish thats what Anet did? Super sad

the mistake you keep making is assuming that sub fees are just a cost.

the f2p/b2p model has its own costs.

people pay for ffxiv because the game is better for them without a gem store. The content is designed without gem store in mind. They get everything the game has to offer, and they get it through gameplay.

which is better unlimited internet for 50 bucks a month, or pay as you go internet? that depends entirely on how you prefer to use the internet.

Galen Grey.4709:

phys.7689:

Galen Grey.4709:

Elorna.5329:

At the time of my pre purchase I was still under the impression I’m buying the expansion, and everyone else regardless if new or old player, is doing the same. Their FAQ that I read around the time they released the initial HoT info had me believe that. The original game losing value is a given and I wasn’t at all worried or offended about the sales of it. But adding that product for “free” at the same price value with another product to people that are complete strangers to the series while charging the same to old veterans just for an upgrade, especially when it was a last moment decision, is a shady business practice, and makes me lose trust in Anet as a company. And as I said in my original post this is mainly on me for not reading up carefully, but I didn’t read up carefully because I never had a reason to not trust Anet so far. So yes, you’re right in the fact that it’s a perception issue, but customer care and trust is based exactly on that.

Why? Its quite normal not just for MMOs to offer the original game at a discount when they release an expansion. Like say FFXIV which is launching an expansion right now has a bundle too. $50 for the expansion, $60 expansion + core game. Is arenanet’s decision to instead of discounting the game to $10, they discounted it to $0 that makes this shady for you?

Everyone is simply buying the expansion, if the account you apply that expansion too doesnt have the game, it unlocks the core game for you. I dont really see whats shady about that! No one is being cheated out of anything.

incorrect information presented

ffxiv presents a 60 dollar new player option

but the upgrade for ffxiv is 40.00 not 50 dollars
if the expansion followed the same model, GW2 would not be in this mess at all.

1)people would have felt the price was better
2) they would not have had to change the faq or give refunds based on it
3) they would not be selling two different products to the same players based on if they played the game or not.
4)many of the people who want charachter slot for 50 would have been getting the same value.

so yeah your snafu in what FFXIV offers basically covers how a small difference in marketing makes a big difference in how your product is percieved. It also shows what is accepted when practice when it comes to expansions.

I stand corrected you’re right expansion alone is $39.99 For some wierd reason square enix decided putting the sound track first, then heavensward bundle and I mistakenly took the soundtrack price as the actual standard edition. my mistake.

but seriously you know we’re essentially arguing here that the mistake Anet did was being too nice, that they should have charged more for the core game rather then giving it away?

We’re also arguing the expansion should be $10 less though I’d also point out that with FXIV buying the expansion alone is not going to get you anything since it doesnt include any free subscription time so just to play it a single month you need to actually paying $55 so in truth it isnt really cheaper and thats without arguing all the other sub fees you’re going to have to pay.

no the mistake was not being too nice, the mistake was taking veteran players as a given.

they were not being nice to the people who already played the game, in fact they are being slightly mean to them. The expansion is more expensive than most other expansions, gives less over the initial copy, and they offer a free basic game to newcomers, but dont offer the same free basic game to veterans (or something of value)

nice to new players
mean to old players.

not surprisingly the older players are the ones who are upset.

stop bringing up sub fees. sub fees are not related to box game costs.

sub fees are parrallel to gem store offerings.

a person who is currently playing ffxiv is paying the sub fee regardless of whether he gets heavensward or not. It doesnt figure into whether the expansion itself is worth it or not.

let me give you an analogy

its like two different clubs
both charge a cover
one has a monthly fee, but you get free drinks/pretzels
one has no monthly fee but charges you for drinks/food

the monthly fee has nothing to do with the cover. truth is more money tends to be made from the clubs that charge for drinks and food. Yes, some people go there and buy no drinks and food, but reality is the club makes more.

the monthly fee is paying for a different aspect of the service is what it boils down to. People who opt in, believe that sub fee is a greater value than non sub fee, irrespective of any expansions.

Drayos.8759:

Guild wars do NOT make as much money from Gem Store as they do any other F2P/B2P because they of the fact they sacrificed that factor by putting NO Micro-transactions into it, No Cash shop Spam Releases of Outfits etc etc, Not having Mounts in the game and ALLOWING you to convert your gold to gems, They make up for the fact they allow players to choose to just never spend a Dime in the Gem Shop by their Expansion Releases.

they DO NEED the expansion release incomes, thats just factual… to claim they dont is stupid.

incorrect, they actually make more than most others

http://taugrim.com/2014/04/10/per-player-revenue-arpu-for-mmos/

and wtf are you talking about they release a new outfits/weapons/etc every two weeks, and have an extensive gem store offering

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gem_Store/historical
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gem_Store

the main reason for the expansion is more for marketing and project management.

Ohoni.6057:

subs have nothing to do with anything

the sub is a different aspect of the monetary policy.

what you pay a sub for, is not having an intrusive gem store, or a game designed around having a gem store.

Subs definitely do have everything to do with it IF you insist on comparing a subscription game to a B2P one. With FF14, they could charge very little on the expansion, because they know that they will definitely make $50 off of each current player off sub fees alone. With GW2, they have no sub fees, so while they might get some additional money off of some players after purchase, they can’t bet on that, and their box purchase price needs to reflect that. Yes, they have the gem store, but they can’t count on every player buying into the gem store, their pricing model is more reliant on box sales than on sub sales, even if it’s not entirely reliant on them.

You cannot compare the price of a GW2 expansion to a WoW or FF14 expansion UNLESS you also factor in the monthly fees. To do otherwise would render the comparison meaningless.

we can compare it to swtor if you want, their expansion was 20 bucks, or we can compare it to Tera whose expansion was free, or Blade and soul in korea, with a free expansion.

GW2 has released numerous “free expansions” over the years. This is their first paid one, and the price they’re charging is a reasonable one compared to other games on the market. The $20 TOR “expansion” you talk about is a joke. NO new classes or races, just a few new combat zones. That is equivalent to GW2’s free Season 2 content, not to HoT.

but be assured, there are a number of people who have said they wish they could in fact pay a sub for gw2 IF it meant there was no gem shop/gem shop design based descions, anet did not choose to go that route Because they feel gem store is a more profitable business model.

GW2 would have failed miserably with a subscription model. It would have been Wildstar in advance.

Came in here to chime my opinion. Recently saw the $50 price point that comes with the full regular game and I facepalmed because that was the cheapest version…which is a rip-off to people who already have the regular game. There SHOULD be a cheaper version that’s $30 that’s just the expansion itself. I’d throw my money at that without hesitation.

No. $50 is the retail cost. It’s not “$30 + the cost of the original game,” It’s "$50 AND you get the original game free with purchase. They can remove the option of getting the original game, but lowering the price is not a factor in that. Why is this so very very hard for people to understand?

You can’t go into a restaurant and say "I see that the steak costs $20. Now I don’t want to pay $20. but I see that it comes with a free side, and if I ordered that side separately it would cost $2. So here’s what you’re going to do, because you owe me, you’re going to give me just the steak, and I’m only going to pay you $18, because I’m entitled to the deal that I want, not the deal that you offered.

No, it does not work that way. The customer is always right, unless he’s not. In this case, the customer is most certainly not.

Or if they made it so if you buy the $50 version and already have the regular game, you get $20 worth of gems. Those two options alone would fix the complaints with this I believe.

Sure, but how could they do that WITHOUT giving everyone $20 free that they are not owed? “Oh, they should just give us a ton of free stuff that we are in no way owed, that would solve the problem.” Yeah, I’m sure it would.

gw2 made more money off gem store sales than most games made off subs last year

as you point out gw2 would have failed with a sub

so its fairly odd to see how you think that charging a sub, which from your own words(and current market trends), is not more profitable, should somehow mean they can charge more for the game to recoup losses, that are apparently profits.

let me simplify

• gw2 makes more money from gem store than having a sub
• therefore they do not need to charge more for a box price to recoup losses

Jongi.7612:

Aidenwolf.5964:

Jongi.7612:

Aidenwolf.5964:

Jongi.7612:

Cambeleg.7632:

Jongi.7612:

Bla bla bla…

You think some people don’t have right to protest about something they’re agree with? If they consider the deal isn’t fair for them, they have the whole right to protest. Many people settled the reason why they’re not happy with the offer in forums, reddit and others.

Are you happy with the deal? Better for you.

But for the shake of…, don’t come to tell “ey, people, you’re wrong, you don’t have right to protest!”. Sorry, but as customers, these mad ‘vets’ have all the right to protest publicly.

And now, move on.

No you have a right to say what you dont like about it. But when it steps into the realm of entitlement your arguments are overlooked. If you dont think the expansion is worth $50 go ahead, voice away. If you think you are owed something because you played for 3 years I get get the kitten out and dont come back.

We don’t need to leave. We’re paying customers we get to be here forever….. If you can define entilenent without looking it up I’ll mail you 10g

Ive already given examples of it, ill be waiting for my 10g. But lets see, special treatment. Theres another word for it.

Wrong. Now look it up and stop using words you don’t understand, thank you

the belief that one is inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment.
“no wonder your kids have a sense of entitlement”

Wheres my 10g?

except that veterans are actually wanting the opposite of special treatment.

they want the same treatment as new players.