Ok heres what i got.
certain items are account bound, BUT
you can earn (through various content, with high rarity or grind or time lock but would require some type of targeted play) a sellers liscence.
Sellers liscense makes a knockoff of the account bound item. There will be a visibile diffrence, it may be color, the orginal may say number 1 on it, and the knockoff number 2, A star on the weapon pommel, something not too crazy, but its there.
This allows people to sell items, and decide an items value, but it puts a limit on how many will be the market, and automatically makes getting the item directly the best way to get, as well as maintaining a small uniqueness factor.
This would of course generally be useful only for items that require a lot of effort, or skill, that are account bound.
that said, this would require them creating a bunch of new systems, item variations, and i doubt they d want to do that.
A question to everyone that is watching this thread:
What’s your opinion on time-exclusive rewards?For example, challenging group content might reward SKINA, for a limited time, until players beat it, until players reach a certain speed, or simply after a set amount of time (or any other system really), that exclusive stops being exclusive and is added to other types of content. Then, another piece of exclusive reward is added to new content and the cycle continues.
Do you find that satisfying as a hardcore player? Do you find that satisfying as a casual player?
I think that is probably the best solution.
One vote from me too on that one. It’s a great compromise as long as the time frames are right, not too short or too long so both groups feel happy about it.
Most casuals are doing things in their own pace anyways so time for them isn’t an issue. They can wait or prepare for it. And most hardcore players would probably enjoy the challenge of having a deadline to acquire the skin before it loses some of its value (and maybe a cool title/achievement to help ’em along).
haha
i mean I dunno if i care too much, but you guys are like animal farm. Slowly recreating the very things everyone said they didnt like.
you are basically proposing a cosmetic gear treadmill.
HoT Price Feedback + Base game included [merged]
in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns
Posted by: phys.7689
Funny I thought they’re giving you the character slot not holding on to it so tightly yet you’re still say you’re quiting so who’s exactly setting the precedent here. Arenanet who gave in to what players wanted and gave the free character slot away or you who’s essentially telling them next time dont bother, sell that character slot rather then giving it away because its not like we’ll be happy about it so whats the point?
They are only giving the character slot to those who pre-purchase the expansion. I will not pre-purchase. Therefore:
They are most certainly not giving me the character slot.
Because apparently simply giving them my money at the same time they provide the product I am paying for isn’t good enough for them.
Thats the deal with bonuses, you go out of your way (pre-purchase), they go out of their way (give you bonuses).
if you’re not willing to go out of your way and you have every right not to why do they need to give you anything more then what you’re buying which is the expansion?
Thing is once you’re satisfied that whatever they’re offering is worth what they’re asking for why is that a problem? If you intended to buy anyway pre-purchase 1 day before release and you’re golden. Will that 1 day change anything?
problem with your thinking is,
all the cries and complaints were not about prepurchase not having better bonuses, they were about the fact that the price tag was excessive and was delivering too little to players who previously owned the game.
people realized they would likely be playing 60 dollars to access the content.
adding the charachters as a prepurchase bonus was a marketing tactic to take that feeling, assuage it, split the groups complaining up, and encourage prepurchase sales.
excellent tactic, but it doesnt address the underlying issue.
It would be like if people complained that unskilled laborers werent getting paid enough, and the solution presented was that unskilled laborers who decide to work for the government will get 10% off their rent.
now you have people arguing about whether government employees deserve a rent cut more than non government employees, and how if people really want a rent cut they should work for the government.
Great tactic, but they didnt really solve the main issues, they just diverted peoples attention, and created more incentive for people to prepurchase.
Ohoni:
because its not about getting the item just to have the item
Its about getting the item from doing the content.
There would be no joy for Maddoctor to get the item a different way, what he wanted was to get something from doing fractals.
Its like gifts, some people value gifts for the gift, some people value gifts more for what they represent. What mad and many others want is both the types of gifts to be present. You dont want any gifts that are more about what the represent than what they are.
know that in game design, rewards (not necessarily items) are generally more about what they represent than what they are.
also any valuable reward, you would want to be able to get, a good reward has to be something people want, something that compells them. So essentially you would never be satisfied if challenging content gave anything compelling
(edited by phys.7689)
Every single one that goes for the raiding end game? Are you new to MMOs?
You probably dont’ actually raid. Every raid game have a cool down of 1 week. You can’t even spam them like you do in GW2.
Most raid game in a few month you can already get a full set of gear. And you only need to run them like 4 times a month.
What is the last game you raid in that you run 50 times and it dont’ give you “anything”. 50 times is like a whole year of raiding which dont’ drop anything.
yup, this is the truth, you actually grind a lot less in raid based games. Even rare drops are usually fairly high rate in raids.
The thing that used to hold people up a lot was raid politics.
getting a full set of dungeon armor probably requires more repetition than raids do, on average. Some people of course are super unlucky.
i thought druid and staff was confirmed? so this pretty much means ranger for sure wont be getting staff?
they are ok with doubling up on weapons is what it means.
Though its possible they changed plans on druid.
I don’t think it will be a stealth specialization.
Don’t think at all.
Maybe evasione and “distraction”
they cant get rid of stealth, it would invalidate too many traits, and the value of any weapon swap.
to be honest i like the idea of a martial staff more than a sniper rifle, but i can see them doing more interesting other things with a sniper/marksman/tactical class, than i can with a martial design.
at the same time if the staff ends up being non martial thats gonna feel pretty crappy. Heres hoping the mechanics and utilities will create an awesome interesting playstyle.
and why do you keep trying to quantify what matters more?
Because logic. Because if you cared about both equally or even close to equally, you would in fact choose to do challenging content to get the reward. So if you’re choosing instead to do the easier content, then either the reward matters more than the content portion to you, the content isn’t actually as fun as you think it is, or you don’t actually like that type of content at all.
do you realize that when you like two things, having to choose one or the other is undesirable?
Of course I do. Do you realize that? I don’t think you do.
Because, with your method, I would have to choose between never getting the reward I would like to get, or doing content I do not like to get that reward.
But you’re perfectly okay with that!
the point is i like effeciency AND challenge.
And my point is that you literally cannot have both. It isn’t possible.
Most people like effeciency. Most people drive to work, even if traffic is annoying, because they like effeciency. They may enjoy bike riding or walking more, but they are in the car cursing at people.
Because they get fired from their job if they aren’t on time, and their job is too far away for walking or bike riding to actually be a feasible alternative.
It is not at all the same thing.
But give them the same job with same pay, where they can walk to work and they quit
Then they are 100% stupid.
no, challenging content is not by its nature ineffecient.
Yes it is.
is playing a piano ineffecient?
is learning to paint?
is working out ineffecient?
is solving an equation ineffecient?YES, IN THE BEGINNING.
And then you become efficient with it, and as such, it becomes easier, because you know the ins and outs.
even when you have mastered something it can still be challenging.
If it’s still challenging in some way, then you haven’t mastered it.
It can still be engaging.
Easy content can be engaging too.
My point of view is it’s ok the reward isn’t exclusive. But it should be as hard in terms of effort, so people are still willing to do the hard content. But there are alternative path, which while isn’t about doing hard content it is as hard in effort.
Then why are you arguing with me? Because as I’ve said, what I’m for is people being able to do the content they enjoy to reach the rewards they want.
My impression is you are saying other people is wrong.
No one is wrong. Everyone is just expressing what they want.
I’m not sure what you want is the popular opinion though. And Anet most likely will choose what the majority wants. And judging from what Anet is doing to pvp ladder(exclusive pvp rewards), I’m not sure if Anet will give you what you want.
If more people voice the same opinion as you. Anet will probably accept your opinion. Kind of like how ascended trinket is added in laurel or Anet making guild mission easily doable for small guilds since many people voice their opinion.
There is a thread every other day saying “X is too hard”, or something along those lines.
I highly doubt a majority is asking for more challenging content. I’d also like to remind you that ANet has put in challenging content several times, and most of that content gets abandoned by all but a small few until that content is made easy by some change.
i paint, and i play music, its still challenging. It actually gets deeper the more you do it.
and doing an equation is still more challenging than trial and error to solve equations.
Working out also requires consistent effort, and it doesnt really get any easier. aside from the curve going from no work out, to working out consistently.
and yea, i guess i dont like rewards that much, because i just end up not doing much content at all.
the content i most enjoyed doing was fractals and SAB but people got cheesy with fractals, spamming the easiest instabilities for progress, so that is less entertaining, and SAB no longer exists.
dont get me wrong there are other entertaining things, certain jump puzzles, certain dynamic events if they arent over crowded, etc, but most i have either done to death, or have no compelling reason to participate in anymore.
hope they dont use staff like a mage uses it, for long range magic
kitten wow just bodied HOT in terms of revealing what you are paying for.
Also seems to be more content based on the info we have so far.
I may in fact do the challenging content, but i wont be doing it with the reward as an objective. The reward is not enhancing my experience of doing the content. The reward can be in fact reducing my enjoyment. Because while i am doing it, i am thinking this is extremely ineffecient.
Then once again, the reward matters more to you. If you enjoyed the content, why would you feel like it was inefficient doing it?
i like challenge and i dont like being ineffecient. does that seem crazy to you?
Yes, because by its very nature, challenging content is inefficient. That’s why it’s a challenge. If you could do it efficiently, then it wouldn’t be hard, it would be easy. When you become efficient at something, that something stops being difficult, because you have mastered how to avoid the difficulty.
and why do you keep trying to quantify what matters more? do you realize that when you like two things, having to choose one or the other is undesirable? Often causing people to refuse to choose? Which child do you love more? Do you like food, or painting more. Do you like your career or your girlfriend more.
the point is i like effeciency AND challenge.
Most people like effeciency. Most people drive to work, even if traffic is annoying, because they like effeciency. They may enjoy bike riding or walking more, but they are in the car cursing at people.
But give them the same job with same pay, where they can walk to work and they quit
no, challenging content is not by its nature ineffecient.
is playing a piano ineffecient?
is learning to paint?
is working out ineffecient?
is solving an equation ineffecient?
all of these things have exclusive rewards, they are all challenging, in fact in the case of the equation, it may in fact be way more effecient to solve the equation
even when you have mastered something it can still be challenging. It can still be engaging. Challenging isnt always about rate of success, its often about how much effort, and ability and engagement it requires to succeed.
I am saying that if you liked challenging content, and liked the reward, you would do the challenging content.
But you keep failing to tell me what makes the reward less desirable the moment it isn’t tied only to challenging content. Why does it lose value to you? Why is it suddenly lesser?
If you like the reward, and the challenging content is fun, why are you doing the other content instead?
Until you answer that question, I am going to ignore any more of your posts directed my way.
I may in fact do the challenging content, but i wont be doing it with the reward as an objective. The reward is not enhancing my experience of doing the content. The reward can be in fact reducing my enjoyment. Because while i am doing it, i am thinking this is extremely ineffecient.
liking challenge and liking effeciency is not mutually exclusive. Most human beings like effeciency regardless of whether they like challenge or not.
why do you think this was in the article
Do your rewards seem to be appropriate for the level of difficulty it takes to acquire them?
i like challenge and i dont like being ineffecient. does that seem crazy to you?
like i said, they could create systems that scale rewards based on various activity, but that sort of thing is generally hard to balance, prone to exploits, creates degenerative play, etc.
and to be clear the reward does not lose its basic value, it loses its value in terms of being an incentive to do X. this cuts both ways.
If the reward is better obtained from challenge, then it sucks as a reward for easy.
If the reward is better obtained from easy, then it sucks as a reward for challenge.’
It only works when the reward is perfectly balanced which rarely happens.
- edited for clarity
(edited by phys.7689)
That doesnt mean these goals, and some sort of incentive to do them should not exist.
HOW IS THE INCENTIVE LOST IF YOU LIKE THAT CONTENT!?
Quit saying you like the content. Quit saying you like challenging content. If you choose the easier method for the same reward despite preferring the harder content then you don’t actually like the harder content. You like the item, and the item is the only thing you like.
Or you know, it’s because what you actually like about the item is that only you have it and there are others who do not.
Which is what I said to begin with.
yes, one can get candy by chasing their friend, but the candy becomes of no real value as a reward since you can get it easier another way.
Then you very clearly don’t actually care about chasing your friend. You don’t find chasing your friend fun. You only care about the item that chasing your friend gives you.
and thats the thing, a fractal weapon is not designed to be charachter customization, it is designed to be an incentive to play fractals.
Then fractals clearly are not as fun as people like to claim.
So if you want to make it cosmetic only, what would be a compelling reward for playing fractals now that you take away cosmetics?
How about leaderboards? How about titles? Why aren’t those compelling? What about a trophy that gets placed in your home instance, or a trophy that when you click it, is placed on the ground in front of you for a set time that works like a package (like the box of chocolates or bobble head stand)
i didnt say the content is not compelling, i said the incentive is not compelling. The candy is not doing its job as being a compelling incentive to play.
The tag game is no better for having candy attached to it, REWARDS IN GAME DESIGN ARE MEANT TO ENHANCE THE GAME.
a reward that does not enhance the objective is not doing its job.
a reward that you must ignore to enjoy the game is a failed reward
Rewards are fundamental to Game Design. Having the right Rewards is key to making sure players feel their is value to their actions. Keep in mind rewards are not necessarily physical or even things like points, sometimes acknowledgment and status are the most important rewards.
Do players care about your rewards?
Do you have unique rewards that players will cherish?
Do your rewards seem to be appropriate for the level of difficulty it takes to acquire them?
Can you possibly give players a choice in what kind of rewards they get?
the stuff im talking about here isnt crazy talk.
rewards in a game are there to drive gameplay. if players must ignore rewards for engaging gameplay, then the reward system is totally failing at its job.
What you keep saying is that if i liked challenging content i would ignore the rewards, thats a bad game design.
you also said i like that others dont have it, i dont care, i have no idea how many others have any item. I think i have seen more liadri minis than i have seen people in this https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pit_Fighter_armor armor set. its about rewarding content properly.
and leaderboards is a bad reward for most players, they dont place high enough, also they exist outside the game world. Perhaps if the made a in game leaderboard system with interesting benefits, like npcs treat you different or you get discounts, or special consumables, that scales well from low rank to high rank, but that would be a rather large change.
titles are boring for many players, I dont even remember what title im using, but some people like em, i dont think its compelling for a lot of players though
home instance anything isnt very compelling, most people never even realize it exists. This may be because the home instance itself is not well done, but making home instances more cool, while awesome is a large endeavor. Wildstar had pretty compelling home instances, but for gw2, home instance stuff is pretty bleh for most players.
Also i think the type of players looking for PVE challenge dont have a huge overlap with home instances.
(edited by phys.7689)
if the problem is wanting a certain reward but not having it be behind a certain difficulty then can’t quantity fix the problem. Like you can get all the same stuff doing normal and hard mode, but hard mode you get a higher quantity of rewards for the added effort? everyone can get what they want then and hard mode is rewarding, as it should be.
this is not a horrible solution, some people have suggested it, the problem becomes the balance and the realities of such a solution.
as i said, in another post, you are basically telling people how much more valuable one task is compared to another, essentially pricing that type of play.
even though on paper its a play how you want system, in a reality its a play optimally system. Not only that, but it can negatively alter the gameplay.
If i say you can get this legendary sword by beating this hard fight, or by killing 10000 bandits
basically if it turns out its easier to beat the hard fight, the reward sucks for killing bandits, if it turns out the bandits is easier, the reward sucks for the hard fight. If they are well balanced both people may be satisfied.
but now you have created a new type of play where people run and gather all the bandits in an area and everyone is supposed to use low dmg gear so every one can get credit on the bandit train. Anyone in a party is unlikely to get bandit claim credit. People who arent in the bandit train are not supposed to kill bandits. All drops from bandits now flood the markets, lowering the value of people who may be engaged in totally different activities, but share a loot table with bandit items.
This is the type of problems you get, and have to solve, whereas if the rewards are unique, you dont have to worry about ecomomic concerns, perfect balance, relative value, and one exploit effecting a lot of other types of reward systems.
Ok here is the process.
Item is released, player thinks “oh I want that!”, player finds out how to get it, does it and gets the reward.
If the “how to get it” is ANYTHING, you immediately do the easiest method because you WANT the item.
THEN YOU CLEARLY CARE MORE ABOUT THE ITEM THAN THE CONTENT.
Why don’t you understand? Or do you think if someone wants something they will deliberately handicap themselves trying to get it?
I don’t understand because it makes no sense. People keep saying how they enjoy harder content. How they want harder content. How they want the journey.
And yet they aren’t willing to take that journey unless they are absolutely forced to.
So if you have to be forced to take that journey, how could you possibly care about the journey? If you have to be forced to do the content, how good or enjoyable could that content really be?
If your first thought when seeing what you can do is “I’ll take the easiest route”, then you don’t actually like challenging content as much as you freaking claim.
Do you people choose easy mode on a game with multiple difficulties and then complain that the game didn’t give you enough of a challenge? Do you avoid hard mode because “why put in the effort in those games”?
dude, no one care about how other people get their rewards. What people care is the reward is crap if they have a easier way to get it.
But what makes the reward crap if there’s an easier way to get it? This is what I don’t get. This is what I don’t agree with.
If you think it becomes a waste of time just because of that, then your FULL ATTENTION is clearly towards the ITEM and NOTHING ELSE.
You want the samething too. You just enjoy easier content more.
Right, but I’m not saying to put rewards behind only easy content, because the reward doesn’t become worthless to me if it’s behind both sets of content, (as long as it’s behind both sets of content.)
now if you simply want candy, then second rule is great, but its still a crappy game, with nice candy.
THEN STOP CREATING SUCH RULES THAT CREATE THAT MUCH OF A kittenING GAP.
I’m sorry, but it’s not my problem that you think everything in this game short of Teq/TT/whatever is the equivalent of reaching into the bag and just taking a piece of kitten candy. If the game is THAT easy for you, you should have found a harder game to sate you AGES ago, because clearly this game never challenged you in the slightest and was going to take forever to catch up to your standards.
Maybe you should have supported Wildstar.
i am far from the most hardcore challenging player.
Never beat triple trouble, dont do speed runs, havent gotten around to getting fractals 50 yet.
That doesnt mean these goals, and some sort of incentive to do them should not exist.
also, the point of the candy example was to show people why how rewards are obtained does effect the game.
yes, one can get candy by chasing their friend, but the candy becomes of no real value as a reward since you can get it easier another way.
If you understand that concept, then yes, we can move on to theoretically balancing other aquisition methods for the candy.
problem is, as soon as you create other aquisition methods, you automatically set up a relationship between the two activities.
lets say method 2 is catching butterflies.
now someone has to figure out how to compare the value of catching butterflies to chasing a friend.
If designer decides that catching you should have to catch 15 butterflies to get 1 candy, it seems like he is saying catching butterflies is inferior to tag. Now butterflu hunters feel like they are inferior.
If designer decides 5 candies for 1 butterfly, its like hes saying you should be catching butterflies.
now even if he comes up with the perfect ratios, what about when jimmy finds the butterfly hideout. he basically takes a stick goes to sleep, and 20 butterflies land on it, he gets 20 candies, once you know this, getting candy from running is now a waste of time. Sure you can run for fun, but the candy itself is no longer an incentive increasing your enjoyment of playing tag
the more possible benefits hunting butterflies are attached to, the more things no longer have appealing incentives, once people find an easy path.
this is a point of failure in game reward design, where the rewards no longer are compelling. When the best way to play a game, is to ignore the reward system, the reward system is failing at its purpose
and thats the thing, a fractal weapon is not designed to be charachter customization, it is designed to be an incentive to play fractals. So if you want to make it cosmetic only, what would be a compelling reward for playing fractals now that you take away cosmetics?
actually there are rewards in basketball, points. and they are given for playing the game in a certain way.
Points are not rewards, they are score keeping mechanisms. You don’t get to keep any of them when the game is over. A point would be equivalent to a kill count within a mission tracker.
you dont get to keep any of these items when the game is over either.
these items exist for the purpose of game, and only within the game. They are how you can tell your progress within the game past level 80.
this is the purpose of points as well, it guides the players and encourages them for the appropriate actions.
your goal in basketball is to score points
your goal in GW2 post 80 game is to get items
if you dont want items to be a game goal, (like points) then you need to replace it with some other goal that is either as, or more compelling.
this is why people like unique rewards, it gives them a goal, while not diminishing other forms of play.
Some people want to collect all the fractal skins, not because they love every fractal design, but because it gives them a goal/reason to play fractals.
the difference between basketball (the game) and a ball and a hoop and court.
There are no rewards to basketball (the game). All rewards are secondary to the experience.
actually there are rewards in basketball, points. and they are given for playing the game in a certain way.
Thats the role items are in an MMO, these items are a part of the game, not something seperate from it.
The items are how the game shows you that you are doing something of value within the game.
a system that rewards anything for doing whatever you want
When given multiple options, the journey towards your goal is whatever journey you choose to take. Don’t try to pawn off that responsibility on the game’s design.
no you are wrong, that is the main responsibility of game design.
the rules/bonuses of a game are supposed to guide your journey and experience in a game.
i think you are confusing good game design with good engine design.
the difference between basketball (the game) and a ball and a hoop and court.
(edited by phys.7689)
lets say there is two methods of getting a wizard hat. Breaking into the hidden wizards lair, destroying his defenses stealing the hat from his familiar.
or going to the starting npc in divinities reach and giving him 2 iron ore. Suddenly for me personally, going to the wizards lair is a waste of time. I may do it for the thrill, but the hat may as well not even be a reward.
That seems like a profoundly unbalance system. I would not support such a system, and have not heard of anyone (not made of straw, at least) that would support such a system.
its an illustrative example to show that the ways in which an item is obtained effects its personal value, and thus its ability to be a compelling incentive for a course of action
The rewards is no longer good if there is a easier way to get it with less effort.
Why not? Why is the reward no longer good? Why do you care how someone else got the reward if what you want is to tackle hard content for that reward and that hard content is what you enjoy and that hard content is available? How does someone else’s journey impact you?
rewards in games are not so much about what it is you get, so much as how you get them.
but also a game is a shared system of rules.
Example i create a game
catch the candy:
the goal is to get the candy!
chase your friend around the park, catch him and you win candy!
fun game.
add a new rule to the game. or go to the candy bag and take a candy.
suddenly the game is wack. One could ignore the candy bag, but what you are doing there is creating a new game, the game itself is lame, and flawed. The player has to make a new game within the game in order to be entertained.
now if you simply want candy, then second rule is great, but its still a crappy game, with nice candy.
The rewards is no longer good if there is a easier way to get it with less effort.
Why not? Why is the reward no longer good? Why do you care how someone else got the reward if what you want is to tackle hard content for that reward and that hard content is what you enjoy and that hard content is available? How does someone else’s journey impact you?
its not someone elses journey its your journey thats impacted.
its not so much that someone else can get it easily, its that YOU can get it easily. So now doing whatever herculean task seems like a waste of time.
lets say there is two methods of getting a wizard hat. Breaking into the hidden wizards lair, destroying his defenses stealing the hat from his familiar.
or going to the starting npc in divinities reach and giving him 2 iron ore. Suddenly for me personally, going to the wizards lair is a waste of time. I may do it for the thrill, but the hat may as well not even be a reward.
Not only that, if the hat is unique, npcs could talk about the mysterious wizard hat give you clues, and the desire for the wizards hat can lead you to a grand adventure. But if the npcs tell the story of a wizards hat like the one that piebald pate over there will trade you for 2 iron ore, suddenly a grand adventure is an excercise in futility.
But what about the people that want the item and not the memory associated with getting it? isn´t it a grind for them to make the hard content, despite not wanting to do it, and would have prefered to collect 40 tokens?
We´re players with different measures of things that are fun, not employees that have to make a certain amount of money or get cut. But probably even the most lazy of casuals would want the same items the hardcores have gotten after a long battle and are willing to grind for them with her mouse in one hand and a cup of coffee in the other.
Would it do the trick if the farmed item is blue and the hardcore one red maybe?
Seriously curious here.
sometimes that is good enough.
sab uses that type of system,
another game i loved, phantasy star online, gave player named weapons with hard to get skins (that were usually grindy or random) along with a bit of player customization of the stats (stuff that existed but you might not see on the normal version of that weapon)
visually it wasnt different, but on a personal level it was an awesome less grindy way to get special skins, and made the weapons very personal.
the goal was to beat all levels in the game in under a certain time frame.
you could retry each level for a better time. each level took 3-40 minutes depending on skill and luck. So a person who doesnt play a lot could do it, person who is hardcore could do it, and aimed for lower times.
really quite good reward and content imo.
heres the point, what type of incentive can you give for doing anything, if all incentives can be obtained by doing task A.
The incentive is getting to do the content that you enjoy, whether that is only one thing, or everything the game has to offer. What is so hard to understand? People who like several different types of gameplay can just switch between the stuff they like if they get bored.
But people who only like one or two portions of the game can still move forward with their goals as well.
You keep saying it will be grindy, but that’s only if ANet programs it to be grindy. And if you think it will be grindy no matter what, then you may as well shelve this game, because if ANet can’t get simple content to be non-grindy, why do you think that the challenging/hard content will be any less grindy, exclusive rewards or otherwise?
I mean, the only non-grindy things in the game that I know, whether behind difficult content or otherwise, are the SAB Tribulation Tokens, and the Lidari Mini, as they’re the only things that are 100% guaranteed from their content. Teq, TT, and Fractals, all originally lauded as challenging content, have 0 guaranteed rewards (aside from maybe that stupid spoon that I’ve seen several threads about).
Even in those, you have to do the content over and over again before you get anywhere, short of RNGesus.
So with that in mind, how can you keep believing that challenging/exclusive rewards are somehow going to save the day when almost everything that ANet puts into the game is grindy regardless of difficulty?
Exclusive rewards aren’t going to solve your issues with ANet’s entire reward structure.
So how do you give rewards for everything, without making all rewards feel worthless,
How do the rewards become worthless?
You keep saying this. What does that actually mean? What is the worth of the rewards? What is their value? How are you gauging these things? How are you determining these things? What set of criteria are you using that renders them worthless/without value?
I see the disconnect.
you look at items as charachter customization primarily. A new armor is like a new face, or hairstyle to you. Its purpose is to achieve a certain look.
But that does not create a rewarding game. I look at some items as being a part of the game structure, a means of incentivizing behaviors, increasing satisfaction, and creating goals for playing the game.
I want people to aim to beat X battle and at the end feel like it served a purpose. I want people to explore a hidden area and come away feeling like the charachter has grown in doing so. I want the content to feel full, and purposeful. Some items a representation of how they played the game and what they achieved. to have a personal value.
Now if items only exist for look customization, then perhaps your path is the way. But if that was the case, they shouldnt actually be giving cosmetics for anything, it should basically all be part of a appearance customizer.
That might be ok, but then they would have to come up with some other system to reward/incentivize/create goals, and people would have to believe it was something cool.
and yes anet could create a grindy horrible reward system with uniques, but they generally seem to make them less grindy if they dont involve multiple economies. Suffice to say if they create a legendary or ascended armor like level of grind while also being challenging, i agree that will be a huge failure of design.
The type of progression systems you guys create will make a boring grindy unfullfilling progression. you actually think its good for the game if you never have to do anything but one thing in one place over and over again to acheive any goal in the game.
heres the point, what type of incentive can you give for doing anything, if all incentives can be obtained by doing task A.
the type of system you guys are suggesting is one that may as well not exist. If you can get anything by doing anything, you may as well just give every one everything.
your basically suggesting a system that essentially is just a straight up time sink progression. why have something like that all?
the thing about incentives, if you incentivize everything, you end up incetiviizing nothing.
if i get a candy no matter what i do, then getting candy is no longer a bonus
if you make it only about quanity, say something worth 1 candy and somethings worth 1/100 candies, you end up deincentivizing certain things. 1/100 candy tasks are seen as tasks no one values
So how do you give rewards for everything, without making all rewards feel worthless, or setting up compartive value of different tasks?
you give different rewards.
Im more concerned with the game as a whole feeling rewarding for doing things, than getting any particular item.
- 3) i didnt mean karma earning, i meant the fact that most karma items required you to do some specifc content to unlock said merchant. IE specific content for specific rewards (this is not just about hard content, its also about unique rewards)
Untrue. Most karma items didn’t need any unlocking. Others did require for someone to unlock the vendor, but that someone didn’t have to be you. In fact, you didn’t even need to be present on the same map during unlocking (see “LFG for Opened Balthasar Temple” times)
- 6) there are other solutions beyond exclusive rewards, but exclusive rewards is simpler, and less likely to break down, or fail to achieve its goal.
That is actually highly debatable. You are completely ignoring here the fact that exclusivity brings with it just too many negative factors that need to be also considered.
- 7) this true, the bad part about exclusives is that you may have to do something you dont like to get what you want. But this is still true with all the casual exclusives, like karma vendors, luminescent armor, achievement armor, titles, etc.
That’s because all exclusives are equally bad.
- 8) this is the nail on the head here. Some peoples primary enjoyment comes from getting specific items they want. They may not enjoy that many other facets of the game. So for them, they want to be able to get anything by the means they do enjoy.
I understand this beef, but i have yet to see them balance the get anything you want via whatever play you enjoy, in a manner that doesnt make most rewards unfullfilling and increase grind greatly. Id rather have to choose or not choose to do something i dont like, than have everything require an intense grind, and every reward be watered down based on how much people earn unintentionally, or when playing super optimally.This is where we definitely not agree. Especially since i don’t think the negatives you described are unavoidable.
- 9)regardless of how much you value how something looks, how rewarded you feel getting it will still be effected by knowledge of how it can be obtained. Many people may think that a low level sword you can buy from a vendor in the first town is the most awesome sword. Most people would still be annoyed if they gave that same sword as a reward for 10k Achievement points. because if they wanted that item, they would already have got it the easier way. Is no that they dont value the aestitic, its that the difficulty did not match the reward.
Well, if they already have it, then obviously they won’t need another.
And the current 10k AP box gives out skins you could have chosen at 1k ap if you wanted them. I didn’t notice anyone complaining about it so far.
most karma armors require you to complete a heart. “but outside Orr, players must complete renown hearts before accessing a karma merchant’s inventory”
explain how you would make non exclusive items work? universal currency like ohoni says?
many flaws there, much of which you see already with gold, and other currencies
- encourages farming the path of least resistance
- must be balanced across total earned and total expended, not over individual user experience
- exploits bug and unintended play effect every item that can be bought
- earning overtime lead to build ups of currency, but for new content they want people to have to play again, so either prices go up, or they have to invent new currencies.
- add to that they have to properly guess the relative ease/time sinks of various contents after players learn the ropes.
- universal currency would be given all over the place, so things would be more expensive because they assume you already have X currency just from doing regular stuff
we have seen all these problems, these are the natural results of these type of systems.
the only negative aspect of unique sources for items is you may not be able to get every cosmetic you want without playing specific content. But this is already the reality of the game.
- 1)Then the obvious solution is to make the challenging version to be more efficient (just not too efficient) for those that can run it.
- 2)Maybe. On the other hand they fully seemed to expect most people to run those dungeons, and they eventually did introduce pvp dungeon reward tracks.
- 3)Considering the many ways you can earn karma…
- 4)Nah, that’s more tied to the tradable value of most loot.
They messed up the karma vendors too, but that was due to a ton of miscalculations (not enough rewards initially, then too much karma income, then nerfing karma income again without introducing new faucets, etc), not due to the idea being bad.
- 5)They did admit much later to miscalculating on those prices and making them too high.
- 6)That value doesn’t have to come in the way of exclusive rewards, though
- 7)Yes, you have to worry however whether the content you do now (which you like) gives you any progress towards the things you want.
- 8)Indeed. Making people do the content they consider unfun in order to get the rewards that would contribute to their fun is working at cross purposes.
- 9)That depends entirely of the person. Yes, there are players that value items depending mostly on how rare they are. There are however at least two other, separate ways of valuing those items (by advantage they confer, or by aesthetics) that do not benefit from exclusivity (quite the opposite, actually).
- 1) i wouldnt mind more effeccency versus less, if well planned mathematically, but even then they couldnt just make it obtainable by any means, it would still have to be something they can easily observe and control well, with the proper amount of inflow and ouflow of some type of currency.
Which they really arent good at. Heck it might be something that is just not feasible, to have system which creates items/currency at large rates, while at the same time still being rewarding over time.
- 2) on release they said they expected dungeons to be the challenging content for people who really want to master the game. For a time it was (some paths)
- 3) i didnt mean karma earning, i meant the fact that most karma items required you to do some specifc content to unlock said merchant. IE specific content for specific rewards (this is not just about hard content, its also about unique rewards)
- 4) tradeable loot is the purest form of the do anything you like to get something else you like concept. And i honestly feel it probably would not be as bad IF more items had unique sources. The fact that they dont means people who have no desire for items get them, and people who want items have drop rates lowered to balance influx.
but i digress
- 5) it wasnt so much a miscalculation, as much as a fundamental design flaw, to base earning items too heavily around the economy instead of the user experience. However since golds stability, and the economy, is tied to cash, its a line they have to walk.
- 6) there are other solutions beyond exclusive rewards, but exclusive rewards is simpler, and less likely to break down, or fail to achieve its goal.
- 7) this true, the bad part about exclusives is that you may have to do something you dont like to get what you want. But this is still true with all the casual exclusives, like karma vendors, luminescent armor, achievement armor, titles, etc. I think its ok to accept in a virtual world, you may have to make choices in how you play, or goals you are willing to try to achieve. This already happens, like i know i cant invest the energy in a bunch more legendaries, or i wont earn the pvp armors, or guild weapons, or get tequatl skins.
- 8) this is the nail on the head here. Some peoples primary enjoyment comes from getting specific items they want. They may not enjoy that many other facets of the game. So for them, they want to be able to get anything by the means they do enjoy.
I understand this beef, but i have yet to see them balance the get anything you want via whatever play you enjoy, in a manner that doesnt make most rewards unfullfilling and increase grind greatly. Id rather have to choose or not choose to do something i dont like, than have everything require an intense grind, and every reward be watered down based on how much people earn unintentionally, or when playing super optimally. - 9)regardless of how much you value how something looks, how rewarded you feel getting it will still be effected by knowledge of how it can be obtained. Many people may think that a low level sword you can buy from a vendor in the first town is the most awesome sword. Most people would still be annoyed if they gave that same sword as a reward for 10k Achievement points. because if they wanted that item, they would already have got it the easier way. Is no that they dont value the aestitic, its that the difficulty did not match the reward.
I haven’t seen any official responses and i worry that they are already too far into working on this to change the assigned fractals thing :/
they arent going to change anything overarching, they are already commited to this concept. They have decided fractals should basically be mini dungeons now.
- 1)Sorry, you don’t get to make a stupid comment like “nobody does easy content for fun” and then turn around and say I’m disingenuous. Stuff it up your nose.
- 2)But why do you throw that party? Because it’s fun? Or because you expect to get presents that none of your party-goers have?
- 3)Again, my problem with the challenging argument is that people are saying they want challenging content but then turning around and saying they wouldn’t do it unless it gives them rewards that only they are allowed to have.
- 4)If that’s the kind of game you want, then I’m sorry, but you are literally playing the wrong game. ANet sold this game on being able to do the content you like to get the rewards you want, with things like Legendaries for the more hardcore grind side.
- 5)This point makes no sense. What you’re saying seems to be that exclusive rewards tied to difficult content are in fact not sustainable. So then how is it a good idea to tie exclusive rewards to difficult content? It makes no sense! I get the feeling that’s not what you’re trying to say, so please clarify.
- 6)How many times do I have to say that challenging content is not automatically fun?
- 7)So then ANet should make sure that all content allows progress so that all content is fun. But that doesn’t neccesitate the existence of exclusive gear.
- 8) This isn’t a sport. Unless you’re in PvP or WvW, you aren’t competing with anyone. The PVE of this game is cooperative. You can’t even fight over nodes for kitten sake.
- 9)Okay, so how does any of this neccesitate the existence of exclusive rewards? If content A is challenging a drops a shiny, and content B is easier, but contains a grind or time factor, and drops the same shiny, and you like content A, THEN YOU SHOULD DO CONTENT A.
If you take the “path of least resistance” while claiming that you like challenging content, then you have nobody to blame but yourself.
ok im guessing your misunderstanding me.
- 1)When i say the idea that people do easy content for fun is bull, what i should have said, is the idea that everyone is doing certain specific easy content like say champ trains, or event spam in Orr, or silverwastes, because its just so fun is bull.
This doesnt mean no one enjoys it, or there isnt fun to be had doing it. The point is they are not doing it for fun ALONE. If it was actually just for the pure joy, then people wouldnt abandon them when they nerf the rewards. - 2)throw a party for fun when you feel like it, but few people throw a party all the time, most people throw a few parties a year, even most hardcore party throwers only do it once a week. MMOs want to avoid creating content average people want to do a few times a year.
- 3)its not about flaunting your stuff around, (for everyone) its about creating a fulfilling reward system. By creating many means of getting any item, you make its value determined by the easiest most effecient means of getting that item, or its utility. and they dont believe people should have to work too hard (grind or challenge) for utility.
- 4) anet made a game with many different facets, they always intended to have some rewards for specific types of play, dunegeon armor and dungeons was supposed to be challenging content with unique rewards. Legendaries and titles also require specific milestones. Heck karma unique karma armor fits that bill.
- 5)Im saying they tried having non exclusive rewards, and they ended up having to create insane grind to get anything they want players to value.
This is because of economics.- halloween 2 for example. Because of the insane amount of people playing halloween content, they had so much currency they had to create ridiculous prices in halloween items to create anything. They basically have to consider not how hard anything should be to obtain, but how much of it flows into and out of the economy. lets say halloween content had exclusive rewards, then they could design it so that someone who plays 10 hours of halloween content can get one of these items.
or someone who does all this halloween stuff can get one of these items.
instead they had to base it on how much candy corn and nuggets are there in the economy divided by the number of people we expect to want to get these items.
- halloween 2 for example. Because of the insane amount of people playing halloween content, they had so much currency they had to create ridiculous prices in halloween items to create anything. They basically have to consider not how hard anything should be to obtain, but how much of it flows into and out of the economy. lets say halloween content had exclusive rewards, then they could design it so that someone who plays 10 hours of halloween content can get one of these items.
- 6) i wasnt saying challenging content is automatcially fun for everyone, i was explaining to you why a person might find challenging content fun, but not find it fun enough to do it a lot if it doesnt give them value for the effort.
- 7) yes anet should make sure all content provides progression, exclusive items helps you to do this by seperating concerns. You dont have to worry about how the latest farm will effect the value of rewards you get from say doing personal story, or a jump puzzle.
- 8)it doesnt have to be a competitive sport, every game has an objective/objectives. perhaps its human psychology but most people will not be happy playing a game if they are working cross purpose to the objectives. When having fun in a game relies on ignoring the objectives, usually the game starts to break down, becoming either a meta game thats different, or people lose interest.
- 9)exclusive rewards is the easiest method available to them to make rewards have value without introducing insane level of grind, or devaluing the item.
no, just because you want challenge doesnt mean you want to be ineffecicient.
lets be honest, no one like working hard and getting a crappy reward. Even if they enjoyed the work.
I enjoy painting, but if someone tells me he will give me 5 dollars per painting, i wont do it.
casual players are also annoyed by this. I remember the first time i beat arah in a pug long ago, and the newish guy, was like thats it? (back then you got very little silver, and most chests were garbage)acting like anyone likes working hard for less reward than doing something easy is disengenous.
it would be different if there were no rewards in the game at all, but as i said once you add rewards it will come into play.
Since we’re on the jobs analogy. Nobody works for a different kind of money that you get by doing a specific job. Yes? Everyone gets the same currency in different amounts. So going by that, you shouldn’t be asking for unique and exclusive rewards, but for more than what others with easier “jobs” get.
You enjoy painting, but you still expect to be paid in dollars right? and you clearly want more dollars for your work, not a new currency. So why is it that in challenging content you want exclusivity? You should get what everyone else is getting, just more. How much more is open for debate. But nobody gets “special dollars” for working.
And again nobody here is asking for getting less or the same for working hard. In fact most say that you should get more, just not exclusives. People who do hard content should be rewarded by more of what it is people who don’t get. But the same stuff, not different. Just more.
But then again it’s not about that is it? It’s about the bragging rights and the feelings of superiority. You just want to stand out from the plebs. All there is to it. The rest as i said before is just rationalizations. And since someone is going to ask what’s wrong with that. The answer is, that’s not a community I want to be part of. The only thing that remains, is what kind of community anet wants for the game. It hasn’t been such a community untill now, I, personally, want it to stay that way.
The problem with non exclusives, is they have to balance themselves against economics. Which in an MMO = grind. The moment something can be sold on the market, the items design people have to consider how many can be created, how to keep it at the set monetary value they have in mind, how to adjust its rarity, how it will effect the economy.
now, once they correctly find this balance, it means grind. like precursors, which are 1/700 combines of 3 or more items. Or drop rates so low, most people who have played for 3000 hours have not seen a drop.
the main reason i say they should be exclusive is to eliminate grind, and make objective based, instead of repetition based gameplay.
They simply wont design an item that is supposed to have value, without grind, if it has to interact directly with the economy. Once it interacts with the economy, its value is determined by grind. Thats reality.
there are other non economy based ways they could solve this, but they would require extensive systems added to the game, and even those would need various balances. They arent going to do all that, so exclusives is the only way they can reward gameplay appropriately without opening a huge can of grind.
keep in mind this shouldnt just be for challenging content, but for many content types.
for the thousandth time, there’s already easy content thats stupidly well rewarded , now they are adding hard content to be well rewarded. They are adding diversity to the game. Whats your problem with that?
My problem with it is that I’ve seen this song and dance already in games like WoW. It is never enough for the “hardcore” crowd. They won’t be satisfied until they are the only ones with all the shinies and rewards. They won’t be satisfied until they are the only ones making progress. They don’t want anyone else to make progress, they ACTIVELY don’t want anyone ever getting near their progress.
I don’t want this game to turn into WoW. I don’t want ANet to even come close to feeding that elitist raid or die mentality. There is no going back from it once you start.
You mad because you can’t spam auto attack and acquire the unique loot anymore?
The only time I’ve ever spammed auto attack and nothing else was against the random wolf and moa mobs in Queensdale, because apparently unlike you and all the other people seeking challenging content, I actually understand that utilizing all of my skills against every enemy, whether Vet, Elite, World Boss, or Dungeon Boss, causes more damage and as such ends the fight faster and more likely in my favor.
Alternatively, I must have a defective copy of the game, because my auto attacks don’t crit for 10k. I’ll be sure to file a ticket with support, since apparently there’s a problem.
You actually have to use the dodge button and that’s too hard for you now?
I’ve always had to use the dodge button because stacking armor in this game is worthless since everything is designed to hit like a truck or status effect you to death.
I wish I had your version of the game, because then maybe I’d have a couple seconds to think through my plan rather than to miss a single dodge and lose half my health.
The only ppl that see anet wasted their time are ppl like you who are too casual to see beyond your own selfish views.
Yes, I’m the selfish one for daring to want everyone to be able to obtain everything in the game in the fashion they please. How dare I. There’s nothing selfish at all about wanting rewards to be exclusive to the few. Nothing selfish about that at all, nope. Clearly you are the selfless one. The unwashed masses should wish they were as dong endowed as you!
You want everything to be obtained from just running circles in silverwastes because its super easy and relaxing right?
Sure, or from doing jumping puzzles, or from doing x, or from doing y, or from doing whatever a person finds fun.
You really wish you could obtain the PvP legendary backpeice by farming some nodes and opening 500 chests in a PvE map dont you?
I mean, if you want to throw that crap around, then sure. I’ll just agree with it so you can feel superior or whatever. I’m not sure what your point is going to be, but you’re going to try and point at it to say I’m wrong somehow.
the heck with unique progression, who needs it right,
I certainly don’t. But I also don’t need to have things that others don’t to feel good about myself.
thats not what MMORPGs are about right!?
Oh, I’m sorry, I didn’t realize GW2 was just another dime a dozen WoW clone. Silly me, I was under the impression that this game was trying to break the mold and be something different for a change.
If you just want another WoW, might I recommend you go play WoW? There’s a free to play option through time tokens these days. Or how about Wildstar? Their hardcore stuff was so successful that they’re going free to play, soon.
this idea that people do challenging content for fun is bull.
Fixed that for you.
if this is the case why are 90% of the maps empty when nothing profitable is going on?
If challenging content is so fun, why was Orr empty for so long until it got several nerfs? If challenging content is so fun, why don’t more people take part in triple trouble?
regardless of enjoying easy or hard, people are playing the game chasing progress.
I don’t disagree. But you’re ignoring a huge difference between the two mindsets when it comes to progress.
One is asking for progress. The other is asking for progress exclusive to them.
point is people want challenging content, and they want it to be worthwhile. this is not mutually exclusive.
If the only reason you’re doing challenging content is for the shinies, then yes, it is in fact mutually exclusive. If you actually liked and had fun with challenging content you would freaking do it because it’s fun.
But you don’t. And “worthwhile” rewards? Please. You don’t want worthwhile rewards. You want completely exclusive rewards, and yes there is a difference.
So again, if you won’t do challenging content without exclusive rewards, then you don’t want challenging content. You want exclusive rewards and you happen to know that challenging content is the best method of making sure you remain exclusive.
If you enjoy cooking, does that mean you want to repeatedly cook for 30 people for no benefit?
My folks did it all the time. It was called having a party.
I feel bad for you if you’ve never been to a party. Your life must be sad.
you have a lot of disengunous answers that seem like you are just trying to argue, without considering realities.
1) you have a party sometimes, when you want to, for the benefit of those you have chosen, you arent expected to throw parties for people on a regular basis, thats why i said repeatedly.
2) the reason i am a proponent of unique rewards doesnt have to just with difficulty but the realities of economics. The type of economy that would justify the prices properly based on difficulty or skill are hard to maintain, and not very rewarding to most players, which is why i wouldnt use them.
3) The whole fun aspect is two teir, because lets be honest, a big part of fun in an MMO is progress. so while challenging content is fun, not progressing in a progression game is unfun. So naturally most people wont do the fun things that hamper progress.
just like in regular sports people may not use fun tactics that are likely to lose them the game. while throwing a hail mary pass in football may be fun, losing is not fun.
While bunting may be more boring than swinging for the bleachers, winning is also fun
the fact that you act like you dont know that rewards drives gameplay, i find to be hard to believe.
Why is fun and challenge opposite to eachother? Basicly anyone who play sports in a competition, or even recreational, challenge themselves to become better at it. And it’s not always easy. So why would people enjoy it in your logic?
It has to do with stress. If one is constantly seeking to challenge oneself, that type of interaction with a game produces chemical changes in the body, not the least of which is the release of adrenaline. Active sports like football, basketball, etc. also produces chemical changes, but the body is both producing and using those changes more efficiently due to the active nature of the sport. If one is stressed from work, has high blood pressure, etc. one’s goal in playing may be more along the lines of relaxing by killing some stuff and becoming immersed to de-stress, not generating added stress via hard content.
There’s more to it, but that’s going to be a factor for some people.
some people relieve stress through challenge. some people get more stressed, there is no hard and fast rule for stress relief. the game has more than enough easy, having both easy and hard wont be a bad thing at all.
You’ll note the use of “some people” in my post. So thanks for pointing out what I already demonstrated an understanding of. I posted because Fox asked a question. The forums have more than enough not understanding as it is, so having people on the forums understand each other a little better won’t be a bad thing at all.
I understand your need to provide the opposite side of what someone is saying, however in the big picture is that many people relieve stress differently (not saying you dont know this, but many people do not)
some relieve stress by easy, some by hard.
This means the best answer is to provide both types of play imo.
and keeping with that concept, in a game driven by progress and rewards, its important that there always be a worthwhile benefit in order to make a facet of the game viable.
Than nobody is going to play the new challenging content if it doesn’t have “unique progression/reward system”.
Then those people shouldn’t have wasted ANet’s time asking for challenging content since they clearly don’t actually care about challenging content.
They should have just been honest and said “I want to be a special snowflake, give me exclusive rewards. Stroke my ego.”
this idea that people do easy content for fun is bull.
if this is the case why are 90% of the maps empty when nothing profitable is going on?
regardless of enjoying easy or hard, people are playing the game chasing progress.
point is people want challenging content, and they want it to be worthwhile. this is not mutually exclusive.
wanting to get rewarded based on how difficult something is is not some new crazy concept.
If you enjoy cooking, does that mean you want to repeatedly cook for 30 people for no benefit?
the most interesting things are
low man dynamic events
fractals
marrionette
not really that much really, but i think the real answer is getting stuff/achieving goals
you really dont understand people who want challenge, i think you are confusing it with people who want fame/respect.
If the people who want challenge want it to go along with unique and exclusive rewards, he’s not confusing anything, it’s the same group.
The rest is just convenient rationalizations used to wrap up the need for fame under a more “noble” cause, that of challenge.
no, just because you want challenge doesnt mean you want to be ineffecicient.
lets be honest, no one like working hard and getting a crappy reward. Even if they enjoyed the work.
I enjoy painting, but if someone tells me he will give me 5 dollars per painting, i wont do it.
casual players are also annoyed by this. I remember the first time i beat arah in a pug long ago, and the newish guy, was like thats it? (back then you got very little silver, and most chests were garbage)
acting like anyone likes working hard for less reward than doing something easy is disengenous.
it would be different if there were no rewards in the game at all, but as i said once you add rewards it will come into play.
HoT Price Feedback + Base game included [merged]
in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns
Posted by: phys.7689
Fine in that case please let me know which MMOs have bigger guild halls, released the equivalent of 3 professions in their expansion? How about progression systems that not only had content related to the expansion in question but also previous content. How about expansions that revamped, 3 core systems at once? should be easy if all of this is underwhelming right?
ffxiv;
http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Housing
3 new jobs
most new expansions add new progression systems, not sure thats a big deal.
revamping core systems isnt really a bonus, its done because the core systems werent working out for the future of the game.
Why is fun and challenge opposite to eachother? Basicly anyone who play sports in a competition, or even recreational, challenge themselves to become better at it. And it’s not always easy. So why would people enjoy it in your logic?
It has to do with stress. If one is constantly seeking to challenge oneself, that type of interaction with a game produces chemical changes in the body, not the least of which is the release of adrenaline. Active sports like football, basketball, etc. also produces chemical changes, but the body is both producing and using those changes more efficiently due to the active nature of the sport. If one is stressed from work, has high blood pressure, etc. one’s goal in playing may be more along the lines of relaxing by killing some stuff and becoming immersed to de-stress, not generating added stress via hard content.
There’s more to it, but that’s going to be a factor for some people.
some people relieve stress through challenge. some people get more stressed, there is no hard and fast rule for stress relief.
the game has more than enough easy, having both easy and hard wont be a bad thing at all.
No player quits a great game simple because they couldn’t achieve an award…
Good. Then we can safely skip giving any unique rewards for challenging content. After all, nobody’s gonna quit because of that.
unique rewards for different types of play helps the game. If rewards are non unique, then the most effecient method of aquisition will destroy other methods.
there is way too much of that happening in many facets of the game.
Unique rewards assure people can have a decent reward for engaging in different types of play, non unique means that the most effecient wins.
not only that but unique rewards reduces grind. If an item has 1000 different sources, then they must balance the influx based on every possible source. With fewer sources they can reduce the grind to achieve the goal.
A skin’s merit (not its look) is diminished the more alternatives to achieving it there are.
No. Skin’s merit lies in its look. What you are talking is skin’s exclusivity, which is a separate thing, even if it’s tied to the same object. A skin looks equally good (or bad) regardless if it’s a common drop or is something only one person in the game can have. It’s bragging value does diminish with introducing more alternatives, but it’s completely independent from the skin itself (after all, exclusivity is in no way dependant on how the object looks like).
Clearly anet is not listening to you.
Other wise some skins wouldn’t be outrageously more pricey than other.No, it’s exactly opposite. If you were right, then every precursor would cost about the same. Instead, their prices differ wildly, which suggests that there are other, more important factors than rarity that influence their worth.
Sorry so just so we’re all clear YOU believe that humans cannot adapt or improve and are frozen in time.. You must have been an impressive 2 yr old, disappointing now though…
Of course they can. Remember though, that if the average skills of the player population will rise high enough that a majority of players will be able to complete the Challenging Content™, the same players that are asking for it now will start asking for something even harder, because that content will in their eyes become casual, no longer worthy to be called a challenge.
In short, any content that eventually will be able to be finished by an average player is not what Challenging Content proposers are asking for, and is not something that will be considered challenging for too long. And those people that ask for exclusive rewards, will want those rewards to stay exclusive. That means, again, them being locked behind a content that most people won’t be able to do.
Take for example, while I like the fractal skins, I think chaos skins look much better.
And i think exactly opposite. I know that if it was the chaos skins that were dropping in fractals, i wouldn’t care for them even one bit.
you really dont understand people who want challenge, i think you are confusing it with people who want fame/respect.
its not the same thing. People who like challenge want it because it is the most entertaining thing to them. Because content that is too simple bores them.
for example, why doesnt a master pianist play marry has a little lamb, because its too simple and boring. Why do people want to play the best team when they go to the basketball court? they may lose.
now you may say, then rewards dont matter, sorry but thats not really true. Especially in a game that gives out rewards, once rewards start being given out, you alter the behavior of people.
this is why exclusive content is a good idea. not just for high end, but for many types of game type. Otherwise all actions but the most profitable are considered wastes of time by most.
People are fond of comparing this game to Guild Wars 1. There was very little in Guild Wars 1 that couldn’t be purchased with gold. Arguably, the hardest weapons to attain were the weapons from DOA, or maybe rare stuff like the celestial compass, the bonecage scythe, the frog scepter or the voltaic spear.
All these high end items were available to sell. You didn’t have to be great to get them. You could farm feathers in a low end zone over and over till you could afford to purchase them.
No one in Guild Wars 1 seemed that riled that their rewards weren’t exclusive. It allowed players who wanted challenge to do challenging content and profit. It allowed less intense players to have the rewards.
I think this is the best solution all the way around.
To those who support those hard core rewards, I guarantee you if there are enough rewards casual players can’t get, you won’t have enough players left to continue running the game. Casuals, in my opinion, make a vast percentage of the playerbase. The more you put out of their reach, the more of them you lose.
I agree with this sentiment completely.
The guy who gets the super rare drop can hold onto it or get rich by selling it. Either way he is greatly rewarded for participating in the content that produced the drop. Meanwhile the player who doesn’t care for content X can farm content Y to finance his purchase of the item. Its a win/win.
this isnt about item rarity though, its about reward vs difficulty. there can be many people who do something that is challenging.
It sort of is about rarity though.
A reward that requires above average skill to attain will be more rare, and likely more valuable if tradable, than less rare items. The difficult content, therefore provides greater reward than less difficult content.
not really, many rewards are easy but time consuming, those would be more rare than difficult content rewards.
for example when sab was out, way more green swords were generated than bolts, however bolt has no really difficult elements to obtaining it.
also low drop rate items, like a precursor, not challenging at all to get, any enemy can drop it, liadri mini challenging, but many more can be generated (when liadri is available to fight)
People are fond of comparing this game to Guild Wars 1. There was very little in Guild Wars 1 that couldn’t be purchased with gold. Arguably, the hardest weapons to attain were the weapons from DOA, or maybe rare stuff like the celestial compass, the bonecage scythe, the frog scepter or the voltaic spear.
All these high end items were available to sell. You didn’t have to be great to get them. You could farm feathers in a low end zone over and over till you could afford to purchase them.
No one in Guild Wars 1 seemed that riled that their rewards weren’t exclusive. It allowed players who wanted challenge to do challenging content and profit. It allowed less intense players to have the rewards.
I think this is the best solution all the way around.
To those who support those hard core rewards, I guarantee you if there are enough rewards casual players can’t get, you won’t have enough players left to continue running the game. Casuals, in my opinion, make a vast percentage of the playerbase. The more you put out of their reach, the more of them you lose.
I agree with this sentiment completely.
The guy who gets the super rare drop can hold onto it or get rich by selling it. Either way he is greatly rewarded for participating in the content that produced the drop. Meanwhile the player who doesn’t care for content X can farm content Y to finance his purchase of the item. Its a win/win.
this isnt about item rarity though, its about reward vs difficulty. there can be many people who do something that is challenging.
Really? So adding a couple of new skins in content not doable by everyone suddenly will force 75% of the playerbase to leave? Out of a million skins they can’t get ONE and it’s the end of the world?
Blatant exaggeration does not help anyone’s position, including yours.
when did people become incapable of parsing literary techniques like hyperbole, analogies metaphors and similies.
did you really think he meant 1 million skins compared to 1? isnt it clear that there is fairly low ratio of exclusive, challenging content gear?
if i say theres a ton of reasons does the weight of the reasons have to equal 2000 lbs?
If i say something killed the fun, do i have to provide a body a motive and an eyewitness to the murder?
+1 to the creator of the thread.
He said exactly what i think and what i want. i dont want this game that i love transform into a frustrating game that only can be played with 150 trained people at the same time or staying on X ip for 2 hours, etc etc. I want a casual game, where i can enjoy and play at its full with just 1-2 hours per day, like GW2 has always been.the author isnt talking about the overall way the game is played. The author only cares about the reward balance between different types of content.
also what you are refering to is not about challenge, its about barrier to entry.
A sport wouldnt be considered challenging just because you have to wait on line for 2 days with 40 of your friends.
I remind you Tripple wurm is considered challenging content in GW2. And the dificulty it has nowadays is just the barrier to entry: choosing an ip, and put in there all the “challenge lovers”…
Challenging content, in reality, in GW2, not in our heads, is just new mechanics (that will not be new for more than a few days), long content, or both.
This really depends on the design and it reminds me of a post from Chris Whiteside:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/cdi/CDI-Guilds-Raiding/page/31#post4541113Where he says the following about how to design a content (or a raid in this case) according to him:
1: Knowledge>
2: Skill>
3: Raid Group SetupWhat imho is a huge mistake.
It should be,
1: Skill>
2: Raid Group Setup >
3: KnowladgeWhat I did try to explain a little later:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/cdi/CDI-Guilds-Raiding/page/31#post4541188When you apply the mechanic Chris suggest here, you are right.. The ‘hard’ content will become a ‘trick’. Once they learned how to beat it, it becomes easy.
But that does not have to be the case, you can design it in ways so that content does stay a challenge, much like with PvP games. In fact you could mix it in, let two groups compete (not fight) with each other in some race.. This keeps it interesting and challenging. Better AI helps, as well as good use of randomness.
raid group setup shouldnt even be a thing.
putting in order makes it work wrong.
knowlegde should be the first gate. You have to figure out whats going on and deal with it. but that doesnt mean its the most difficult aspect, merely that you have to understand the area before you master it.
skill should be ever present, but you shouldnt need the greatest skill to get the base level of completion.
team work should be always a part of it, working well with your teams strengths and weaknesses should be part of the core.
great skill should give you better chances at rewards, or greater progress towards rewards.
i dont think most mmo players want to get everything without playing the game. pretty sure its a very small minority of players than want the dungeon title but dont want to do any dungeons.
Sure, but they might want dungeons they themselves will be able to run. Remember, for a large part of population dungeons, even the really easy ones, are still hard. Forumites, when compared to the rest of the population, are generally exceptionally skilled and esperienced – you shouldn’t assume everyone is around your skill level, or even around you skill potential. There are many players that will never come close, no matter how hard they will try. What you might consider a moderate level of difficulty, that should be cleared by anyone with a little effort, is most likely prohibitively hard to many, many players.
I went into TA this week with a party of five. We didn’t get past the wurms in the beginning after three tries. Two people left the party and with those people replaced, we beat the wurms in no time flat.
Those two people, one of whom was new, one has been playing since launch. Sure eventually they might get it, but everyone has a different discouragement threshold.
Also if dungeons could be soloed, I’m convinced a lot more people would do it. I think it’s looking bad in front of others that prevents many from trying.
its ok for people to quit one aspect of a game. This game is supposed to be virtual world, as long as you feel fullfilled and enjoy somethings, its doing its job.
I didnt open the chest at the griffonrook run. Did i quit the whole game? I just said ehh, im not willing to do what it takes to get that thing, and moved on to something else. Most people are like this. As long as the things they do like feel rewarding and interesting, they are fine.You may be right. Again it’s a question of balance. If a couple of things are out of your grasp, that’s one thing, but the same non-competitive people who don’t run dungeons, may also not PvP or WvW for exactly the same reason. And those people will look at the game as what can I do and what can’t I do. And again the question is how many of these people are there?
If there’s not that many, it doesn’t matter.
the game already has, and will continue to have a ton of rewards for those types of play. All karma armors, all crafted items, the design of ascended gear, the large majority of achievements. currently the most effecient gold/material farms.
hot as promoted has mastery system. elite spec unlocks, more materials for adventures/map completes.
Its never been a question of all rewards/development getting behind hard content, this op is essentially saying nothing should be given for hard content.
mathematically, they said something that takes 5 times as long should reward .5 times more.
thats just ridiculous math.
i dont think most mmo players want to get everything without playing the game. pretty sure its a very small minority of players than want the dungeon title but dont want to do any dungeons.
Sure, but they might want dungeons they themselves will be able to run. Remember, for a large part of population dungeons, even the really easy ones, are still hard. Forumites, when compared to the rest of the population, are generally exceptionally skilled and esperienced – you shouldn’t assume everyone is around your skill level, or even around you skill potential. There are many players that will never come close, no matter how hard they will try. What you might consider a moderate level of difficulty, that should be cleared by anyone with a little effort, is most likely prohibitively hard to many, many players.
I went into TA this week with a party of five. We didn’t get past the wurms in the beginning after three tries. Two people left the party and with those people replaced, we beat the wurms in no time flat.
Those two people, one of whom was new, one has been playing since launch. Sure eventually they might get it, but everyone has a different discouragement threshold.
Also if dungeons could be soloed, I’m convinced a lot more people would do it. I think it’s looking bad in front of others that prevents many from trying.
its ok for people to quit one aspect of a game. This game is supposed to be virtual world, as long as you feel fullfilled and enjoy somethings, its doing its job.
I didnt open the chest at the griffonrook run. Did i quit the whole game? I just said ehh, im not willing to do what it takes to get that thing, and moved on to something else. Most people are like this. As long as the things they do like feel rewarding and interesting, they are fine.
Again – as I posted before the problem in bold is not a game-related problem but a people related problem
Well, so is so called lack of hardcore content.
The truth is, most people that ask for challenging content also do not want to be themselves challenged. They want the content they themselves will be able to finish, but that everyone else will have problems with.
There’s a reason why most of those people don’t accept pvp as this kind of content – it’s because they themselves are not good at it.
this is not true, challenge seeking people genuinely like being challenged and get bored of repetition more easily.
there are some people for whom the goal is more about exclusivity or feeling superior, but these people dont necessarilly want challenging content. They can want content that has a pay wall, or a high grind requirement, or require a lot of people to give their rewards.
for these people challenge is one of many tools, but many times they wont even use it. These are the one of the types of people who will seek the most challenging rewards and pay someone to do it for them.
but regardless of personality type, most people are made to not want to be incredibly ineffecient. If the challenging content doesnt have some benefit comenserate with its difficulty, they will abandon it later. keep in mind the same can be said of easy content. Killing white animals is really easy but when it had no benefit, most people wouldnt do it.
Do you really think that casual players will just sit around and watch better players get all kinds of cool stuff, while they sit in the wings? Some will, sure, but what percentage. That’s the hundred thousand dollar question.
And how many players are leaving the game because of the grind, grind, grind and luck involved? How many players who used to be collectors in other games do not collect anything in this one because there is such a grind or rng involved to collect things? How many of those already left? How many players that write guides and try to make the game better for everyone still play waiting for something more to come? How long do you think all those kinds of players (including casual mini collectors) will stay in the game if everything they want is behind an endless grind?
I don’t know. But I do know that without that grind, even with challenging content, there is no MMO. No company can make content fast enough for people who play all the time to be satisfied. No company has done it yet. You seem to equate the grind with hard content getting good rewards.
I don’t. I equate the grind with the idea that to keep people playing there really aren’t any options. You can do it like some games do, and make the drops very rare in a specific raid (or a fractal weapon skin), or you can make the grind so that anyone can get it, but it takes a while.
If you see another option I’d sure like to hear it.
Or put the rewards behind challenging content that will make the majority of players much longer to get. Much like how hard it was/is to get the Dungeon Master achievement unless you master a fight like Simin. It took players months to get that fight right, but now it’s “farm” mode for those who mastered it and at least much more doable for everyone else.
Do you believe the majority of players have dungeon master? I’d love for someone from Anet to come and tell us what percentage of players have it. I do, but I know that 90% of my guild doesn’t. Those are the very rewards that need to be used sparingly, or you risk losing the casuals.
And why don’t they have it? It’s not like it’s hard to get now with all the spot selling going around. Or all the guides written about it, or maybe asking for help from a dungeon master, there are more than enough willing to teach all the dungeons even to total newcomers. The actual dungeon community is very casual-friendly (not the kind of reward seekers on the LFG tool)
Those who don’t have Dungeon Master, simply don’t want to have it.
You really don’t get it. Do you know how many people have never entered a dungeon and don’t KNOW about paths being sold. You can only see this from the point of view of a forum poster. Of people who frequent websites. Of people who join guilds.
People don’t have it, because it’s really really far out of their comfort zone. It’s not that it’s not attainable, it’s that it’s SEEN as not attainable. You can believe all you want that people know that they can get this, but I’m pretty sure a healthy percentage of the playerbase doesn’t know if you use a skill while downed and trying to rez yourself that it interrupts it.
Yes, I agree most people who frequent these forums know you can buy runs. But I know quite a few people who walked into a dungeon solo, got killed at the first encounter and never went near one again.
So why don’t they step up their game? Because simply sitting in your comfort zone isn’t an option anywhere – so why should it be here?
If they player base is that bad -they should get better – because the player base you describe is so far out of touch with the game and incompetent that designing a game for them must be hell for any developer.
Where are the good old days where if you were bad you simply tried to get better instead of demanding the content be more suited to your “needs”.
I’m not staying content should be incredibly hard – but if the bar is set so low how are people going to improve? Ultimately allowing them every benefit while still within their comfort zone is a really good way to lose players via boredom.Also – how can one person just “walk into a dungeon solo” when the pop-up that appears when attempting to enter the dungeon clearly states you need more than one person.
These people you mention don’t really have a problem with Gw2 – their core problem is reading comprehension. I don’t think they should be taken into account when designing a game.
You can say what you like about this, but it doesn’t change anything. Those people exist, they exist in numbers, and your personal belief isn’t going to change how they behave. You can say it’s wrong from today till next year and it will change nothing. These people are out there. They form, in my opinion, a significant percentage of this game (and every MMO’s) population.
They didn’t come here to play a competitive game. They didn’t come here to “get better”. They didn’t want a job or stress when they sit down to play. And you telling them they’re wrong for feeling that way won’t change a thing.
The question is are they more numerous, or are hardcore players. That’s really the only question.
i dont think most mmo players want to get everything without playing the game. pretty sure its a very small minority of players than want the dungeon title but dont want to do any dungeons.
It’s bloody guild wars 2, do you guys remember the npe? Where they took out natural skill unlocking for a level system because they thought it was to difficult for players to understand? That’s what they consider the average player to be, the challenging GROUP content will probably be on par with tying your shoe, a (arguable) challenge at first due to its newness. But within a month, even those without a chance will be carried and feel good about themselves not knowing they were carried.
And if being account bound/soul bound reduces the rng, then I am all for it. Besides, the gem store stuff will still generally be the shiniest stuff on the block anyway. So please, just keep up giving everything unique/exclusive skins. It makes collecting an actual effort.As for gold farmers getting all uppity about not being able to buy a skin, you guys get unique account bound skins by being the only ones able to buy through (or around) the sometimes insane RNG, such as with the ghost wolf pup (seriously who else can afford thousands of tot bags for 1 mini?!). You don’t get all the skins as it is. Neither do I, because I’m always broke. So what is the problem with a few more skins neither of us will get (because I ain’t stupid enough to pre-purchase any digital content =P)
this is a valid point, the repetive grinders essentially have their own exclusive content. People who dont enjoy open world repetive grind are locked out of certain rewards as well.
Do you really think that casual players will just sit around and watch better players get all kinds of cool stuff, while they sit in the wings? Some will, sure, but what percentage. That’s the hundred thousand dollar question.
And how many players are leaving the game because of the grind, grind, grind and luck involved? How many players who used to be collectors in other games do not collect anything in this one because there is such a grind or rng involved to collect things? How many of those already left? How many players that write guides and try to make the game better for everyone still play waiting for something more to come? How long do you think all those kinds of players (including casual mini collectors) will stay in the game if everything they want is behind an endless grind?
I don’t know. But I do know that without that grind, even with challenging content, there is no MMO. No company can make content fast enough for people who play all the time to be satisfied. No company has done it yet. You seem to equate the grind with hard content getting good rewards.
I don’t. I equate the grind with the idea that to keep people playing there really aren’t any options. You can do it like some games do, and make the drops very rare in a specific raid (or a fractal weapon skin), or you can make the grind so that anyone can get it, but it takes a while.
If you see another option I’d sure like to hear it.
Or put the rewards behind challenging content that will make the majority of players much longer to get. Much like how hard it was/is to get the Dungeon Master achievement unless you master a fight like Simin. It took players months to get that fight right, but now it’s “farm” mode for those who mastered it and at least much more doable for everyone else.
Do you believe the majority of players have dungeon master? I’d love for someone from Anet to come and tell us what percentage of players have it. I do, but I know that 90% of my guild doesn’t. Those are the very rewards that need to be used sparingly, or you risk losing the casuals.
And why don’t they have it? It’s not like it’s hard to get now with all the spot selling going around. Or all the guides written about it, or maybe asking for help from a dungeon master, there are more than enough willing to teach all the dungeons even to total newcomers. The actual dungeon community is very casual-friendly (not the kind of reward seekers on the LFG tool)
Those who don’t have Dungeon Master, simply don’t want to have it.
You really don’t get it. Do you know how many people have never entered a dungeon and don’t KNOW about paths being sold. You can only see this from the point of view of a forum poster. Of people who frequent websites. Of people who join guilds.
People don’t have it, because it’s really really far out of their comfort zone. It’s not that it’s not attainable, it’s that it’s SEEN as not attainable. You can believe all you want that people know that they can get this, but I’m pretty sure a healthy percentage of the playerbase doesn’t know if you use a skill while downed and trying to rez yourself that it interrupts it.
Yes, I agree most people who frequent these forums know you can buy runs. But I know quite a few people who walked into a dungeon solo, got killed at the first encounter and never went near one again.
if you dont like dungeons at all, why would you want a dungeon master title.
Most people are willing to accept that they can only get certain things from doing certain things.
this idea that everyone has to be able to get everything or they quit is completely inaccurate, i guarantee you 99% of people dont have everything the game has to offer. and most people have content they just dont like, so therefore avoid.
one of the best executions of rewards was SAB. sellable rare drops, earnable by tokens account bound, special colors for harder achievements. This made the rewards approachable by all types, but gave various ways and investments for playing the mode in different styles of play.
All playtypes could approach these rewards