Guild Wars 2

Vayne.8563:

I’m not so sure that Anet changed the system to eliminate key farming. I think they did it to eliminate the awkward story pauses that made people wait to have to do important things, as Danikat has already said.

Maybe the keyfarming thing was secondary, but I don’t believe it was the main reason. The entire story is set up in ten level intervals, and this way you play through the entire arc at one time.

if it wasnt to lower key farming, the system would have worked better starting at level 1 (or maybe 5) rather than level 10.

also what you call awkward story pauses, was completely optional. the old system adapted more to the player.

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

You talk about the game at lauch. At launch we didn’t get our first trait point till level 11. We couldn’t buy our first minor trait till level 15. The hearts and events really weren’t that much different back then, but it took you a hell of a lot longer to reach 15th level.

It’s just a matter of opinion to what’s good or not good. I can’t stand leveling in FF XIV. It really didn’t enjoy it. But it’s still just an opinion.

you can level in ffxiv the same way you level in guild wars 2, by doing their version of dynamic events, or exploring. you can mix in personal story as much as you want just like gw2, or you can pick up random quests if thats your thing.

what exactly didnt you like about the leveling? im curious. It has flaws, but im curious what your thoughts were.

I could go into detail but I don’t feel this is the place for it. I found that there weren’t that many dynamic events, just a handful, and they weren’t around when I needed them to be. Most of the early leveling I did was through traditional quests and to be honest, that’s the real magic that Guild Wars 2 brought to the table. Not having dynamic events, but by eliminating traditional events.

Without doing those standard quests, leveling was glacial.

nah, in fact you can only do those quests once, so most leveling in the game is without quests at all(since you can level all jobs on 1 char). you can get to level 50 (former max level) in the same time frame as gw2 without quests.

probably the biggest difference is the lack of heart like quests to keep you around when dynamic events arent popping, but the hunts kind of fill that role. Also experience chains are pretty good, but thats something most new people may not take full advantage of

• oh yeah fates spawn more frequently the more people doing them, so the fact the game is old slows down the starter experience, with a few friends, its a bit more reasonable.

I think how gw2 does it a little better is the way the basic things come together
no claiming (everyone gets credit)
large open world
leveling scales so you arent penalized much for being in lower zones
megaserver, though i dont like what it does for the future of the dynamic event system and map states, it does get more players on maps, even if its only a couple people doing what your doing, in gw2 that makes a decent size difference.

I think the personal story blocks, not really a good idea for gw2.

I think the OP has a strong point, however anets last attempt at improving the new player experience failed. I dont think the new player experience can be fixed easily.

The only real hope is if they make a new expansion that you can start at level 1, that totally turns the level 1-35 game on its head.

Vayne.8563:

You talk about the game at lauch. At launch we didn’t get our first trait point till level 11. We couldn’t buy our first minor trait till level 15. The hearts and events really weren’t that much different back then, but it took you a hell of a lot longer to reach 15th level.

It’s just a matter of opinion to what’s good or not good. I can’t stand leveling in FF XIV. It really didn’t enjoy it. But it’s still just an opinion.

you can level in ffxiv the same way you level in guild wars 2, by doing their version of dynamic events, or exploring. you can mix in personal story as much as you want just like gw2, or you can pick up random quests if thats your thing.

what exactly didnt you like about the leveling? im curious. It has flaws, but im curious what your thoughts were.

What it comes down to, is the game is not engaging especially after the first time.

Engaging is not all about challenge though that is one of the main methods.

Basically the game doesnt have the depth it needs to keep players around.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Vayne.8563:

I disagree. And if you think you can get the same value anywhere else TODAY, good luck to you,. because you can’t. Guild Wars 1 came a time when that sort of thing was possible. I don’t see any value like that around today.

DDO?

Vayne.8563:

Maybe you want to spend the rest of your days looking for that value and never play anything again.

Or alternatively, vote with your wallet, and encourage more game companies to not be so greedy.

Vayne.8563:

Because there is no expansion to Guild Wars 1. It doesn’t exist. So I can’t play it. And there’s no other MMO that makes a game that’s worth playing.

I’m assuming you meant to say GW2, since GW1 obviously has Eye of the North.

Vayne.8563:

So either you spend a few zillion dollars and build a time machine to a time when you can get that value, or you accept the fact that times have changed, or you don’t and play only games and never expansions, because by your reckoning, none of them will be worth it.

Or! Or! You don’t accept it, and show the game industry that they have to be reasonable with the pricing of their expansions. If enough people vote with their wallet, they will have to reduce the price. Yes, even mammoth companies like Blizzard.

He is voting with his wallet, he finds it to be a great deal.

I dont think money is their problem. Organizing how to spend money in the right ways is the issue

Vayne.8563:

CambrianExplosion.6394:

Vayne.8563:

Because sub games always come out with huge amounts of content and sub games never dumb the game down. lol

Research is your friend. For years WoW players complain about not enough content between paid expansions, they leave in the millions between expansions, and they’ve been complaining about the game being dumbed down.

Blaming this stuff on the buy to play model probably requires a bit more evidence than just saying that’s the reason.

Compared to the older expansions, the recent WoW expansions have been getting less content in between. But compared to GW2, they’ve been getting way more than us. Hell, they recently just got a new raid with new gear like a week ago. The game has definitely had its fair share of ‘dumbing down’ though. Can’t speak for FFXIV.

The expansions are big, sure. The time with no updates at all between expansions however has grown. Which means that those who are subscribed aren’t paying $50 for an expansion. They’re paying $90 plus the price of an expansion in monthly fees. I have people in my guild who play WoW. The last time lasted about six weeks. the expansion came out, they played for six weeks and left again.

Again,. if you’re paying a monthly sub, you’re paying for an expansion all the time. Or you unsub and don’t have access to your game at all.

Subs are a terrible idea for most games. WoW gets away with it because of their longevity and their advertising power. FF gets away with it because Final Fantasy is a very very strong IP. The Final Fantasy series has been popular for a long long time. It’s a stronger brand that Guild Wars ever was.

But ESO had to go free to play and SWToR had to go free to play (and that’s both Star Wars and Bioware), so I’m not sure why you think any game but the very rare exception could possibly go sub.

Ff does it because they offer a very strong product and service. They spent the props of the ip long ago. Ffxiv had a horrible name and expectation attached to it after the first version fell. Everyone predicted it would be a large failure and waste of development.

Here is the real deal. People are willing to pay you if they feel your product is worth the price.

The real reason people dont like this expansion price is because due to past service and what it seems like the expansion is offering, they dont know if its worth it.

Vayne.8563:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Galen Grey.4709:

what I am trying to say, most likely really badly is personally I don’t think you can measure a price by content simply because there is no direct relation there. Price here is more of a raw supply and demand affair.

I disagree. Just because some people are willing to pay more for a product, does not mean that you can’t compare content vs price.

Yes, there will always be fans that will throw down as many dollars as required, regardless of how high the price is. That does not mean that that price is justified.

You seem to be implying that the value of a product is completely abstract, and differs from person to person. And while each person will no doubt attach a different value to any given product, that doesn’t mean that the product cannot be given an inherent value based on its content alone. I don’t think it is entirely subjective, as you seem to suggest it is. With digital products this is perhaps more difficult than with physical products, but it doesn’t make it impossible. In fact, the GW2 core game gives a direct comparison.

If we agree that GW2 was originally reasonably priced at $60, then I think we can also agree that any expansion that has the same price tag, should deliver at least as much content for that value.

I disagree. And if you think you can get the same value anywhere else TODAY, good luck to you,. because you can’t. Guild Wars 1 came a time when that sort of thing was possible. I don’t see any value like that around today.

Maybe you want to spend the rest of your days looking for that value and never play anything again. The value I get from Guild Wars 2 is not all that different from the value I got from Guild Wars 1. That is, it’s the game I like the most, without the monthly fee.

Because there is no expansion to Guild Wars 1. It doesn’t exist. So I can’t play it. And there’s no other MMO that makes a game that’s worth playing.

So either you spend a few zillion dollars and build a time machine to a time when you can get that value, or you accept the fact that times have changed, or you don’t and play only games and never expansions, because by your reckoning, none of them will be worth it.

For you sure. For many other gamers this game is competing for dollars

Galen Grey.4709:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Galen Grey.4709:

No expansion is the size of a full game, its unreasonable to expect it to be considering that an expansion is worked on for a fraction of the time a company works on the full game. That being said, we dont even know how big HoT is, isnt this argument a bit premature?

We know that it won’t be the size of a full game, because it is an expansion. And as you said, no expansion is the size of a full game.

But it is priced as a full game. This makes the price unreasonable, regardless of what future content they reveal in HOT. It’s not going to be more than a full game, and yet it is priced as one. On that basis alone, we can say it is too expensive.

Thing is pricing isnt that simple. Even in the physical world, things like pizza, ham burgers, steaks etc.. even though they’re relatively all the same size can vary in price greately. We dont expect a pizza that costs twice as much as another pizza to be twice the size because its not just about the size. Its also about the ingerients, its also about the quality, the service as well as the overall taste / experiance.

There is also another thing to consider, what if the core game was in a way sold for much less then what its worth? Lets compare Prophecies with Gw2 for example. Both took 5 years to develop but Anet had 120 employees in 2008 while they had 270 in 2012. More then twice the people worked on Gw2 so should it cost twice as much?

Even content wise. Cities were more then twice as elaborate, same goes for all the maps. Same goes for content 25 missions + 205 quests vs 100s of personal story missions (various combinations of prof, race and choices) + 1500 dynamic events + hearts etc…

Thing is pricing digital items is tricky business . Its not like pricing physical Items. I can easy say how much it costs for me to product a pizza, I can say how much markup I want to make and there is my price. A game on the other hand is a different story. You dont even know how many copies you’re going to sell so you dont know what the price has to be to break even much less to include the markup you intend to make.

what I am trying to say, most likely really badly is personally I dont think you can measure a price by conent simply because there is no direct relation there. Price here is more of a raw supply and demand affair. What price point will people be willing to buy at? and thats why I do feel that its perfecly reasonable to factor in the no-subscription and LS updates in that decision because this isnt about a physical item perse its about an experiance. $50 per 2-3 years is more then reasonable for what we’re getting imho.

Yes there are other revenue streams that pay for that stuff but this is the only guaranteed income Anet has, it is what makes sure NCsoft are happy enough with Anet that not only did they not downsize the team like most other MMOs do post launch but they were okey with increasing that team from 270 people to 350 people they have today. $10 above the industry average is more then fair for what we get in my opinion.

No products know how much they will sell ahead of time. Digital products are actually one of tje easiest products to deal with nowadays because the cost barely changes for each item sold.

Selling boxes is no more guaranteed than selling outfits.

This type of product is a dream for most businesses.

Galen Grey.4709:

phys.7689:

If someone gives you something and you have to spend extra money to use it, its one thing.

If someone sells you something many people expect it to work without additional purchases.

Which is why no one buys a car? or a pen? or why some items have the famous batteries no included sign?

plenty of things you buy require additional costs for you to enjoy. I wish when I purchased my PC it came with free electricity, internet and content but alas I have to pay for all of those, especially the content that ends up costing orders of magnitute more then what I paid for my PC

Both cars and pens where i come from are purchased full.

Also most the products you mentioned are not created and sold by the same company.

Regardless its probably not agAinst the law, its just something consumers dont like, especially when the competition tends to include everything you need.

Dark Saviour.9410:

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Then it hit me. There’s no paywalls to cool stuff with FF XiV sub

So, how’s that Sleipnir mount? Or those Y’shtola and Yda minions?

Thats not cool

Windsagio.1340:

phys.7689:

As a seller they can come up with whatever prices and package content how they want.
They could say revenant needs a elite char slot that costs 20 dollars.

However, if the consumers dont feel it is a fair value, the product will fail or change price. Many people dont feel the no batteries included style for revanent is good.

They circumvented this with a prepurchase bonus, but the truth is at the end of the day many people still find the package they are offering lacking. They just arent focused on it because they dont actually intend to buy the game after release.

They picked the wrong price point for the product they are promoting. A large amount of players are only interested in the product at this price if they start adding extras.

After release they will have the same issue. Many returning players wont feel its worth it. This expansion as it is, is going to need sales and special offers to achieve its goal of having a high adoption rate.

Either that or give more content or take away content from core.

They didn’t circumvent anything.

*They charged what they thought the market would bear*

Arenanet, or NCSoft doesn’t owe the customers anything beyond producing the game and selling it. If the market won’t bear the price, the product will fail, and they’ll have to discount it or take a loss on it.

There’s really not much else to say.

They circumvented the outcry that the base package wasnt worth it by offering char slots.

But thats only prepurchase. If people didnt feel it was worth 50 dollars before they still dont but since they are prepurchasing they are like whatevs.

And like i said they dont customers anything at all. But if customers dont feel the price point is right and dont buy it, they make less money. Especially with this expansion. It costs virtually nothing to sell, and people not adopting doesnt lower operating costs.
The main way to profit off such a good is to sell as many copies as possible.

The only way this works out to more money is if part of their plan is to start charging high then lower it to catch all the people they missed at the higher price point

Genesis.8572:

ZeftheWicked.3076:

I’m quite amused myself that someone just said what you did with straight face and good faith he’right.

Did I stutter?

My “indoctrination” begun oh..10 days ago? So yeah, it’s veeeery ancient;) Till that time it’s been F2P and GW2.
And how they got me you ask? With hairdresser. I got a quest to help this guy get his hairdressing tools back, which i do, heck nothing better to do atm. After getting all things together i get the expected one time hairstyle change coupon.

What i did not expect is that from this moment on i’d be able to call him as many times as i like and have my hairstyle changed for 2k ingame currency. No real $$ required. I dare you, I double dare you to try that with F2P or GW2 and not feel sore all over your wallet.

I dare to get my character’s hairstyle right the first time. This does not strike me as a compelling argument for a subscription.

Then it hit me. There’s no paywalls to cool stuff with FF XiV sub (i say FF XIV because i know SWTOR tries to still nickle and dime even sub players via their cash shop). I don’t have to watch endless waves of cool weapons and armor flow into some cash shop instead as rewards for doing actual ingame content.

When they guy in radical armor stands next to me – i know he earned it.
No “whales” and no “freeloaders” everyone has really equal footing here. Money’s left at entrance and then just play on, no strings attached. I can live with that kinda deal, and actully am, right now. And if it loses it’s luster – i’ll stop paying and that’s done:>

A subscription is its own paywall that often comes with a timewall to encourage the continued use of the subscription through the potential chance of getting that cool stuff. What you are describing though has always been a part of the subscription model. Nothing new. And there’s a reason why many of us left it for the GW2 model that we now have. If you want the FF14 model then play FF14. But don’t try to make GW2 into a game that it is not.

Time wall isnt really a thing anymore. In ffxiv you can get max level gear faster than you can in gw2. Turns out both cash shop and subscription games need to keep people playing. Subs generally do it with lots of content currently, at least for ffxiv.

Its a price you pay, depending on what you want out of the game different monetization strategies resonate with you.

Subscription is far from an inferior value, but this game was sold to people who tend to prefer a different model. Changing that now would be an extremely hard sell

Genesis.8572:

I’m always amused by the people who have been so thoroughly indoctrinated by the outdated MMO subscription model that they are convinced that it’s necessary and beneficial.

I wont say its neccessary, but the reality is your going to pay people to plAy in some shape or form.

Wethers its pay attention to advrrtisements
Pay by promoting the game to your friends
Pay by buying extras
Pay by producing gold for the company to sell
Pay by being the lower class plebians for others to look down on.

There is always a cost with any monetization strategy.

Now for gw2 i think a yearly buy 2 play version update is about as close as they can come to a subscription.

Ayrilana.1396:

phys.7689:

Ayrilana.1396:

usernameisapain.7163:

50 dollars is only for expansion without character slot, a pre-purchase “bonus” doesn’t count as it is not included in the package per se, therefore it makes sense to say that it is 60 bucks.
Regardless there has been many shady issues, among others the different value of the 60/100 dollar versions on the international market, which by the way, cannot be explained by the taxation.
Furthermore it is being sold as a digital product at this moment, which means it cost Anet nothing to distribute or produce.

And there is plenty of reason to call this out as being overpriced. People keep returning to the “if you get x hours of fun out of it, it is worth it” or “I can afford it”
Well that’s great, however the price is still overpriced, and if everyone jumps into that boat it will legitimize the company to sell the next base expansion for 5-10 dollars more.
And it was never a question of being able to have x amount of hours of fun. The fact is it is easily 5-10 dollars too much. It is a principle of making it clear “this is too pricey, we know it, we think it is too bad” I don’t think anyone is expecting the price to change, or Anet gluing the char slot to the expansion instead of the pre-purchase.

The issue is, that if people don’t make a case out of these kinds of practices, it will only get worse going forward. We can all afford it, but we can also see that the price is off.
The same way that I can see that the price is off if my eggs or milk has risen exponentially even though the farmer hasn’t changed his prices. or a white t-shirt at a clothing store that normally cost between 10-15 across a wide variety of stores, and all of a sudden cost 25 at one, the quality isn’t necessarily better than those 10 other stores.

Let’s say that Anet had instead of having Revenant be part of the expansion that they had instead released it with last week’s large update. We also go under the assumption that it was always going to be a part of that update. Would you have any issues then even if you didn’t have any character slots? What if they instead were not doing an expansion but continuing on with the living story and provided the class as part of that?

If someone gives you something and you have to spend extra money to use it, its one thing.

If someone sells you something many people expect it to work without additional purchases.

There is a caveat though. If the price of the expansion is unaffected with the exclusion of the new class then those that would need to purchase an additional character slot in order to play it could not argue it as being part of the cost of the expansion as they are now. The reason being that regardless of how the class was given to the players, they still would have incurred the $10 cost to purchase the additional character slot. This is only further strengthened if they were actually willing to purchase the character slot if the class were made available outside of the expansion.

As a seller they can come up with whatever prices and package content how they want.
They could say revenant needs a elite char slot that costs 20 dollars.

However, if the consumers dont feel it is a fair value, the product will fail or change price. Many people dont feel the no batteries included style for revanent is good.

They circumvented this with a prepurchase bonus, but the truth is at the end of the day many people still find the package they are offering lacking. They just arent focused on it because they dont actually intend to buy the game after release.

They picked the wrong price point for the product they are promoting. A large amount of players are only interested in the product at this price if they start adding extras.

After release they will have the same issue. Many returning players wont feel its worth it. This expansion as it is, is going to need sales and special offers to achieve its goal of having a high adoption rate.

Either that or give more content or take away content from core.

Ayrilana.1396:

usernameisapain.7163:

50 dollars is only for expansion without character slot, a pre-purchase “bonus” doesn’t count as it is not included in the package per se, therefore it makes sense to say that it is 60 bucks.
Regardless there has been many shady issues, among others the different value of the 60/100 dollar versions on the international market, which by the way, cannot be explained by the taxation.
Furthermore it is being sold as a digital product at this moment, which means it cost Anet nothing to distribute or produce.

And there is plenty of reason to call this out as being overpriced. People keep returning to the “if you get x hours of fun out of it, it is worth it” or “I can afford it”
Well that’s great, however the price is still overpriced, and if everyone jumps into that boat it will legitimize the company to sell the next base expansion for 5-10 dollars more.
And it was never a question of being able to have x amount of hours of fun. The fact is it is easily 5-10 dollars too much. It is a principle of making it clear “this is too pricey, we know it, we think it is too bad” I don’t think anyone is expecting the price to change, or Anet gluing the char slot to the expansion instead of the pre-purchase.

The issue is, that if people don’t make a case out of these kinds of practices, it will only get worse going forward. We can all afford it, but we can also see that the price is off.
The same way that I can see that the price is off if my eggs or milk has risen exponentially even though the farmer hasn’t changed his prices. or a white t-shirt at a clothing store that normally cost between 10-15 across a wide variety of stores, and all of a sudden cost 25 at one, the quality isn’t necessarily better than those 10 other stores.

Let’s say that Anet had instead of having Revenant be part of the expansion that they had instead released it with last week’s large update. We also go under the assumption that it was always going to be a part of that update. Would you have any issues then even if you didn’t have any character slots? What if they instead were not doing an expansion but continuing on with the living story and provided the class as part of that?

If someone gives you something and you have to spend extra money to use it, its one thing.

If someone sells you something many people expect it to work without additional purchases.

Vayne.8563:

…

Making decisions based on all the currently available info leads to accurate conclusions, based on your info. Should new info come to light you re evaluate your conclusions, thats sound reasoning.

Your basically gambling on anet. Which is fine but its a gamble none the less. The only thing i think people should go by is what anet presented. Anet has told people in the past to measure them by the things they commit to, not the things one might assume, because their process and goals change as they go.

I dont think you can really discuss the possible value of the expansion based on what they may one day release.

Of course this discussion is underway with the caveat of what we currently are aware of. Thats a given. Should they announce 10 new zones and 20 new challenging battles with a 15 hour story arc, we will change our analysis. Should they commit to 30 hours of story and 2 new elite specializations within 4 months after hot release, that would also be considered.

But just believing it with no reasons? We cant really expect to judge the value of the expansion based on random gambles of what we hope may be tbe case. Thats hardly sound advice.

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

Galen Grey.4709:

phys.7689:

How much you enjoy your work has little to do with monetary value, also weather you recieve small amounts of money with little effort doesnt mean its free money.
If your savings account earns you 40 dollars it doesnt mean it was free money.

The gold you earn has a value even if you arent legally allowed to sell it. Anet capitalizes on it. Point is trading gold for items isnt free. You are spending a resource you earned which is used to generate revenue for anet.

Is someone trading shoes they make for food to eat getting free food? Should they ignore that it costs them 4 hours to make the shoes when they trade it for food?

People get confused by gold you are working for it, and youd be generally better off buying it than trying to earn it in game, effeciency wise.

10 dollars (100 gold/800gems) of in game gold is for most players a lot more work than 10 dollars of real money.

No it doesnt. If I spend 20 hrs reading a book , how much value is that? Can I trade that for anything really? Playing a game is not work, its entertainment, what you’re getting out of it is enjoyment. The gold you get isnt really money in any shape or form, its merely a token used in the game mechanics to provide you with more complexity.

Without being able to sell its essentially worthless. No bank is going to give me a loan based on all the gold I have in Gw2 no matter how many times I explain the hours that went into generating it could have generated me way more then the colleteral requested by the bank had I worked a real job instead.

Getting a free character slot usinging ingame money wouldnt be any different then getting that nice expensive skin you’re after from the trading post. In both cases you didnt “work” for it, its a reward for playing (and hopefully enjoying yourself) for X amount of hours.

Your gold has value because anet sells it, and because you can use it to buy things which have monetary value.

If i get paid to write books by say, target. Who pays me in target credits. My book reading has value. Monetary value.

Target sells my books
And i get things of monetary value in exchange.

How much i enjoy writing is irrelevant to the value of my writing

You are writing as a paid job. Playing a game isn’t a job.

Anything you do that can make money has monetary value, wether you realize it or not.

Just because something is entertaining does not mean it has no monetary value.

If you realized this, and had the desire to, you probably could get money from your 5 on 5 games.

People in Fact can, and do.
Sponsorship
Make youtube videos of your games
Sell tickets
Create local tournaments

Regardless any resource you have to earn and can be spent has value. Its not “free” 10 hours of your in game earnings has a market value of 10 dollars. You can pay for it with 10 american or 100 gold tyrian doesnt change the fact you are paying.

Galen Grey.4709:

phys.7689:

How much you enjoy your work has little to do with monetary value, also weather you recieve small amounts of money with little effort doesnt mean its free money.
If your savings account earns you 40 dollars it doesnt mean it was free money.

The gold you earn has a value even if you arent legally allowed to sell it. Anet capitalizes on it. Point is trading gold for items isnt free. You are spending a resource you earned which is used to generate revenue for anet.

Is someone trading shoes they make for food to eat getting free food? Should they ignore that it costs them 4 hours to make the shoes when they trade it for food?

People get confused by gold you are working for it, and youd be generally better off buying it than trying to earn it in game, effeciency wise.

10 dollars (100 gold/800gems) of in game gold is for most players a lot more work than 10 dollars of real money.

No it doesnt. If I spend 20 hrs reading a book , how much value is that? Can I trade that for anything really? Playing a game is not work, its entertainment, what you’re getting out of it is enjoyment. The gold you get isnt really money in any shape or form, its merely a token used in the game mechanics to provide you with more complexity.

Without being able to sell its essentially worthless. No bank is going to give me a loan based on all the gold I have in Gw2 no matter how many times I explain the hours that went into generating it could have generated me way more then the colleteral requested by the bank had I worked a real job instead.

Getting a free character slot usinging ingame money wouldnt be any different then getting that nice expensive skin you’re after from the trading post. In both cases you didnt “work” for it, its a reward for playing (and hopefully enjoying yourself) for X amount of hours.

Your gold has value because anet sells it, and because you can use it to buy things which have monetary value.

If i get paid to write books by say, target. Who pays me in target credits. My book reading has value. Monetary value.

Target sells my books
And i get things of monetary value in exchange.

How much i enjoy writing is irrelevant to the value of my writing

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

10 dollars (100 gold/800gems) of in game gold is for most players a lot more work than 10 dollars of real money.

But you are not “working” for the gold, unless you want to. Gold, and through achievements even gems directly, come from you doing what you enjoy the most. It’s your choice if you equate earning gold with work, if you do things you don’t enjoy just to get it. But you don’t HAVE to, you can do only things you enjoy and still get enough gold to buy that character slot, without ever doing something you dislike.

The gold/gems come as a bonus for your play time. It’s like every time you watch a movie you earn a discount for the next one. Gather enough discounts and you might get to watch one movie for free.

I disagree wholeheartedly with this type of reasoning. Just because you enjoy a job doesnt mean you should burn your earnings from it willy nilly or ignore the time spent doing it.

Even if i enjoy creating a painting, that doesnt mean i should sell it cheaply, or ignore it may have taken me 30 man hours to create.

Even with your reasoning, its still illogical to consider the resource you gained to be free.

Lets say you earned 1000 sky miles flying around. Someone wants you to fly cross country to hang out, and says hey its free! Not really, the trip must still be weighed against all the other trips you could have taken, and thus still has a cost monetarily equal to the cost of the flight.

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

@phys.7689

Well you see that’s the thing. Having experienced many, many MMOs I’ve yet to find one with all the features that I like. Not one.

So I don’t really want to do a bunch of static quests, like in FF or ESO. Those things don’t really interest me. Even though the quests in ESO are voiced, they feel so much the same old. It doesn’t feel organic to me, and that’s really the issue. This game does feel organic and most others don’t.

I don’t want to have to compete with someone for kills or nodes. That’s a big thing for me. I want to be happy when I see other players. Nor do I want to play a game that claims to be free to play, but you really have to sub. I don’t mind paying a sub. I don’t like people saying their game is free, when it’s only free in name. I’ve played too many of them.

I prefer active combat, to passive combat. I don’t really love cartoony graphics like WoW or Wildstar. And I don’t love games that focus on instances. And I don’t like the holy trinity.

You start going through that list and suggest to me one other game that has what I like and I’d be happy to try it. The fact is you can count on one hand games that don’t really focus on instance that don’t have a trinity.

That’s all down to what Anet has created. HoT is an extension of that creation. When you add in stuff like Guild Halls (and the guild halls in most games aren’t going to be entire guild zones) and you add in not raising the level cap or adding a new tier of gear (that’s certainly unusual for any MMO expansion), then you have something that’s very different. Maybe you’re looking in different places than I am.

In fact, I’m not sure how many MMOs there are that won’t add a new tier of gear and won’t add more levels. That’s a major selling point for me.

Those are differences that matter, but they arent getting expanded on in Hot.

Hot so far has shown nothing that seems to enhance most of the things or ideas you mentioned there. So while yes gw2 is unique, hot is not. Which is fine, but if an expansion is primarily about playing a similar game in slightly new areas/situations then it needs enough new areas and situations to make it worth upgrading. One still has gw2 core, that offers many of those things

Wow, I can’t believe I have to say this. I thought it was obvious.

I like the game and hot expands the game. New territory. New story. New adventures. Gliding. Guild Halls.

What am I going to do? Take the only MMO that’s reasonable fun for me and not play the new stuff because I don’t want to spend $50 on it, because someone doesn’t think there’s enough content? That’s ludicrous.

HoT has done the only thing it needs to do. It expands the game I love WITHOUT raising the level cap and WITHOUT adding a new tier of gear.

But there’s one more thing. HoT also offers me horizontal progression through masteries, which to me alone is worth the price of admission.

Those who don’t buy hot can’t grow their characters at all, and can’t explore the new territory. They won’t be able to take advantage of the new AI.

Seems like a no brainer to me.

Valid points but essentially you are saying even a small offering is worthwhile because you love the base game so much.

Other people are trying to compare it more objectively and relatively. So yeah you were going to buy it regardless, barring an insane price or some earth shattering change. But that doesnt make you the best person to accurately discuss its value.

maddoctor.2738:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

maddoctor.2738:

You can also buy that character slot with gold someone that is an old player and has been playing for 3 years should have enough to buy a single character slot.

Or even Achievement Points, you get 400 gems every 5k APs it’s not uncommon for an old player to have 10k AP by this point, so enough to get that slot.

That’s still an investment. I think it is safe to say that gems have a dollar value attached to them. And since gems can be bought with gold, gold has a dollar value attached to it as well by default. This means that the game allows you to work, in order to earn a digital currency that has a certain dollar value in-game (not outside of it).

So you are paying for it. You are just paying for it with a digital currency instead of real dollars. That doesn’t mean you are getting the character slot for free.

You get gold and even gems simply by playing the game doing what you want and playing what you want. You don’t have to “work” for them unless you want to. So the character slot comes as a bonus from doing what you are already doing anyway.

This is the main “problem” with the gem store really. They have to balance the cost in gems for anything to be both reasonable if you use cash (which is hardly the case on many things) and a reasonable price to get them with gold.

You cannot convert gold into dollars directly. You cannot go and use your gold to buy anything outside the gem store, so the value of that gold isn’t the same.

How much you enjoy your work has little to do with monetary value, also weather you recieve small amounts of money with little effort doesnt mean its free money.
If your savings account earns you 40 dollars it doesnt mean it was free money.

The gold you earn has a value even if you arent legally allowed to sell it. Anet capitalizes on it. Point is trading gold for items isnt free. You are spending a resource you earned which is used to generate revenue for anet.

Is someone trading shoes they make for food to eat getting free food? Should they ignore that it costs them 4 hours to make the shoes when they trade it for food?

People get confused by gold you are working for it, and youd be generally better off buying it than trying to earn it in game, effeciency wise.

10 dollars (100 gold/800gems) of in game gold is for most players a lot more work than 10 dollars of real money.

Vayne.8563:

@phys.7689

Well you see that’s the thing. Having experienced many, many MMOs I’ve yet to find one with all the features that I like. Not one.

So I don’t really want to do a bunch of static quests, like in FF or ESO. Those things don’t really interest me. Even though the quests in ESO are voiced, they feel so much the same old. It doesn’t feel organic to me, and that’s really the issue. This game does feel organic and most others don’t.

I don’t want to have to compete with someone for kills or nodes. That’s a big thing for me. I want to be happy when I see other players. Nor do I want to play a game that claims to be free to play, but you really have to sub. I don’t mind paying a sub. I don’t like people saying their game is free, when it’s only free in name. I’ve played too many of them.

I prefer active combat, to passive combat. I don’t really love cartoony graphics like WoW or Wildstar. And I don’t love games that focus on instances. And I don’t like the holy trinity.

You start going through that list and suggest to me one other game that has what I like and I’d be happy to try it. The fact is you can count on one hand games that don’t really focus on instance that don’t have a trinity.

That’s all down to what Anet has created. HoT is an extension of that creation. When you add in stuff like Guild Halls (and the guild halls in most games aren’t going to be entire guild zones) and you add in not raising the level cap or adding a new tier of gear (that’s certainly unusual for any MMO expansion), then you have something that’s very different. Maybe you’re looking in different places than I am.

In fact, I’m not sure how many MMOs there are that won’t add a new tier of gear and won’t add more levels. That’s a major selling point for me.

Those are differences that matter, but they arent getting expanded on in Hot.

Hot so far has shown nothing that seems to enhance most of the things or ideas you mentioned there. So while yes gw2 is unique, hot is not. Which is fine, but if an expansion is primarily about playing a similar game in slightly new areas/situations then it needs enough new areas and situations to make it worth upgrading. One still has gw2 core, that offers many of those things

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

The more options there are, the more it’s possible for someone to come up with something that most others have not discovered, but which works really well. The less options there are , the more likely it is that any build you come up with is used by a large number of others. Since this lack of surprise is what Anet has been aiming for all along, it should not be a surprise that the current system accomplishes this aim. Frankly, the old system did not have a lot of surprises in it, though the new system does have fewer.

But the new system isn’t really complete yet and the old system was. I wonder how that will change when elite specializations come into play.

The old system wasnt complete. Near release jon peters said he planned to add a ton of traits per class. One of the reasons they had made a change to their pre beta trait systems, was so they could add traits more easily.

That never came to pass. Most likely because they saw problems with the system. And began thinking of new systems. Or they decided less options is better.

The old system was complete as in self contained. It’s pretty obvious to me, there’s a major piece of this puzzle missing that will come when elite specializations are released.

I believe that the original trait system was supposed to last us, whether they added new stuff or didn’t. It was still a completely system.

I seems that a lot of traits weren’t getting used at all, and there doesn’t seem to me any real reason to add new traits when old traits are being unused. So Anet decided to change the system to provide more useful traits. But at the same time, it’s also designed to allow for modular expansion as more specializations come out.

You add traits that enhance playstyles or create new playstyles. Doesnt really have to do with underperforming traits.

For example, the fact that hard to catch used to suck( random teleport when you gett cced) has little to do with if pistol could benefit from a trait that made it more power friendly in the main hand.

As for the new system being incomplete, it will always be so. Its supposed to be a system that houses multiple specializations. Juat like the last system was supposed to allow for many more traits to enhance specific playstyles.

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

The more options there are, the more it’s possible for someone to come up with something that most others have not discovered, but which works really well. The less options there are , the more likely it is that any build you come up with is used by a large number of others. Since this lack of surprise is what Anet has been aiming for all along, it should not be a surprise that the current system accomplishes this aim. Frankly, the old system did not have a lot of surprises in it, though the new system does have fewer.

But the new system isn’t really complete yet and the old system was. I wonder how that will change when elite specializations come into play.

The old system wasnt complete. Near release jon peters said he planned to add a ton of traits per class. One of the reasons they had made a change to their pre beta trait systems, was so they could add traits more easily.

That never came to pass. Most likely because they saw problems with the system. And began thinking of new systems. Or they decided less options is better.

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Ayrilana.1396:

phys.7689:

Ayrilana.1396:

Development costs are not the same. Do you really believe that development costs for Diablo 2 were the same as Diablo 3? How about Super Mario Bros to Super Mario World? Or Daggerfall to Morrowind? If you do then I’m shocked. If you don’t then how could you think that they would be the same between GW1 and GW2 core game/expansion? Higher costs tend to translate to higher prices.

Prices for games has not gone up in general since 2005. Nor has size gone down.
Ffxi cost 15 a month and had 40 dollar expansions 10 years ago. Ffxiv costs the same thing right now, and its very profitable.
Dark souls i cost 60 and dark souls 2 cost 60. Street fighter games costed 50 in the 90s and cost the same today.

Point is game prices have not inflated and game content has not deflated. So using that as an excuse is a fallacy

I wasn’t arguing about the price level of the industry. I picked those games to show that production costs would be different between sequels as they’re more involved and general larger in scale. Dark Souls vs Dark Souls was only a 3 year gap compared to like 9 with Guild Wars. High costs tend to result in high prices unless they can minimize this through other ways such as economies of scale or additional revenue from sources beyond the game’s sale.

Production costs effecting prices is not an accurate defense if, for the industry as a whole, it has not effected prices.
Dark souls was one example.
Final fantasy 11 and final fantasy 14 was another. They are 10 years apart.

Production costs are not the reason for the chosen price. The monetization policy they have profits even if they sold it at cost. This is simply the number the marketing dept came up with that they think people are willing to pay.

They just think the market is willing to bear this price. The only real question is do the consumers agree.

You state this as fact though it’s really just your opinion. Unless you’re working for NCsoft and Anet, you pretty much are just guessing.

My guess is that the amount of work required to make all the changes they’re making to the game, including designing the new tech for new skills and such, bears out the cost of making the game.

It’s absolutely possible that companies can make stuff more efficiently. It’s also just as possible that its easier to make stuff efficiently when you’re working with a tried and true formula and just repeating it.

What you are suggesting is that anet is noticeably less effecient at making their game tham everyone rlse. So much so that they cannot compete at the same price as other games. I find that highly unlikely, especially considering they are top 10 in eRnings in the genre, and based on when they claimed they started development, the game was not in development overlong.

Really if you are right it would mean anet cant compete with their competition

Nowhere did I say everywhere else, so you’re misquoting me. What I’m saying is that when you break the mold it takes longer to make stuff, because there’s no hard and fast rules and if you want to be in the forefront of stuff, you pay for that priviledge. If you prefer to play the old, annoying MMOs (which I can’t stomach at all), by all means, go play them. They may come out with content faster, but to me they’re far more annoying and less fun than I have in Guild Wars 2.

What I said was Anet is competing with their competition by being new and different rather than being fast and efficient.

I’d rather have new and different than fast and efficient in many cases.

So you are saying the lack of comparitive value in cost versus content (compared to current competition) is balanced by bringing a unique and new product.

A valid idea, a bit subjective, but thats fine.

I personally agree in theory, but i feel 2 things about this specific case.
1) they arent making a new product anymore, they ve been doing this for 3 years, it shouldnt be like starting from scratch anymore.

2) the game has not evolved along its unique paths, the game looks s lot more similar to older paradigms than it used to. Many of the unique aspects are fairly underdeveloped or have become a lot closer to the basic formula.

To me, the expansion doesnt seem that new and different, which makes me expect more polish refinement and quantity. Based on what we ve seen, i dont feel they can claim innovation as a reason for less development per dollar in this case.

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Ayrilana.1396:

phys.7689:

Ayrilana.1396:

Development costs are not the same. Do you really believe that development costs for Diablo 2 were the same as Diablo 3? How about Super Mario Bros to Super Mario World? Or Daggerfall to Morrowind? If you do then I’m shocked. If you don’t then how could you think that they would be the same between GW1 and GW2 core game/expansion? Higher costs tend to translate to higher prices.

Prices for games has not gone up in general since 2005. Nor has size gone down.
Ffxi cost 15 a month and had 40 dollar expansions 10 years ago. Ffxiv costs the same thing right now, and its very profitable.
Dark souls i cost 60 and dark souls 2 cost 60. Street fighter games costed 50 in the 90s and cost the same today.

Point is game prices have not inflated and game content has not deflated. So using that as an excuse is a fallacy

I wasn’t arguing about the price level of the industry. I picked those games to show that production costs would be different between sequels as they’re more involved and general larger in scale. Dark Souls vs Dark Souls was only a 3 year gap compared to like 9 with Guild Wars. High costs tend to result in high prices unless they can minimize this through other ways such as economies of scale or additional revenue from sources beyond the game’s sale.

Production costs effecting prices is not an accurate defense if, for the industry as a whole, it has not effected prices.
Dark souls was one example.
Final fantasy 11 and final fantasy 14 was another. They are 10 years apart.

Production costs are not the reason for the chosen price. The monetization policy they have profits even if they sold it at cost. This is simply the number the marketing dept came up with that they think people are willing to pay.

They just think the market is willing to bear this price. The only real question is do the consumers agree.

You state this as fact though it’s really just your opinion. Unless you’re working for NCsoft and Anet, you pretty much are just guessing.

My guess is that the amount of work required to make all the changes they’re making to the game, including designing the new tech for new skills and such, bears out the cost of making the game.

It’s absolutely possible that companies can make stuff more efficiently. It’s also just as possible that its easier to make stuff efficiently when you’re working with a tried and true formula and just repeating it.

What you are suggesting is that anet is noticeably less effecient at making their game tham everyone rlse. So much so that they cannot compete at the same price as other games. I find that highly unlikely, especially considering they are top 10 in eRnings in the genre, and based on when they claimed they started development, the game was not in development overlong.

Really if you are right it would mean anet cant compete with their competition

Vayne.8563:

Ricky.4706:

well this should make for an interesting read on topic ^.^
http://www.forbes.com/sites/olliebarder/2015/06/26/the-witcher-3-kept-its-budget-low-because-it-was-self-published/

i wonder how much ncsoft has their hands in this and throwing a hot potato in arenanets lap!

one thing in particular i noticed from the ncsoft quarterly report – was their unusually low packaging / distribution costs – this may be why there is no collectors edition. maybe we need to bail anet from ncsoft ? lol

Dear NCsoft, Arenanet is not a potato, stop with those crazy meetings and let them focus!! We the players have spoken!

The witcher 3 isn’t an MMO. It’s not going to constantly provide free content after you beat it.

I’ve played Guild Wars 2 for thousands of hours for the price I paid for it. Are you suggesting you can play Witcher 3 for thousands of hours. I sort of doubt it.

MMOs aren’t like stand alone games, because they’re constantly being updated. For example, I own the Witcher and Witcher 2, and I’ve played them. But I don’t get content updates for them with any regularity. I haven’t spent a hundred hours playing either one. So the price I paid for them, even if it was $10, it’s still more expensive per hour than Guild Wars 2 is for me.

The same goes for an expansion. If it gives you ten, fifteen times the amount of play a stand alone game gives you, it’s a kitten good deal.

Play per hour doesnt have the same value. Unless your goal is simply to pass time. I enjoy mmos. But to be honest the hours are not created equally. Mmos generally stretch content through repetition and long term goals.

Things that would take an hour in offline rpg are stretched to 10-20 times that. Its often not a case of more to do, more a case of doing it longer

Ayrilana.1396:

phys.7689:

Ayrilana.1396:

Development costs are not the same. Do you really believe that development costs for Diablo 2 were the same as Diablo 3? How about Super Mario Bros to Super Mario World? Or Daggerfall to Morrowind? If you do then I’m shocked. If you don’t then how could you think that they would be the same between GW1 and GW2 core game/expansion? Higher costs tend to translate to higher prices.

Prices for games has not gone up in general since 2005. Nor has size gone down.
Ffxi cost 15 a month and had 40 dollar expansions 10 years ago. Ffxiv costs the same thing right now, and its very profitable.
Dark souls i cost 60 and dark souls 2 cost 60. Street fighter games costed 50 in the 90s and cost the same today.

Point is game prices have not inflated and game content has not deflated. So using that as an excuse is a fallacy

I wasn’t arguing about the price level of the industry. I picked those games to show that production costs would be different between sequels as they’re more involved and general larger in scale. Dark Souls vs Dark Souls was only a 3 year gap compared to like 9 with Guild Wars. High costs tend to result in high prices unless they can minimize this through other ways such as economies of scale or additional revenue from sources beyond the game’s sale.

Production costs effecting prices is not an accurate defense if, for the industry as a whole, it has not effected prices.
Dark souls was one example.
Final fantasy 11 and final fantasy 14 was another. They are 10 years apart.

Production costs are not the reason for the chosen price. The monetization policy they have profits even if they sold it at cost. This is simply the number the marketing dept came up with that they think people are willing to pay.

They just think the market is willing to bear this price. The only real question is do the consumers agree.

comprisedpuma.1324:

phys.7689:

Ayrilana.1396:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Ayrilana.1396:

Gw2 was $60 and not $50. You don’t know how big/small HoT will be..

HOT is $60 bucks as well. So you are paying exactly the same.

And no we don’t know how big HOT will be. But we do know:

-It will be smaller than the core game, and thus shouldn’t cost the same.
-It’s a small expansion, not a full standalone expansion like in GW1.

Ayrilana.1396:

EotN and HoT are priced similar to their base games.

EotN was NOT priced similar to it’s core game. It was a lot cheaper than Prophecies.

You’re purposely inflating the cost for the extra character slot which comes free with pre-purchases. EotN was priced similar as I showed by showing the percentage of the original’s cost.

Prepurchase bonuses are irrelevant to the actual product. They are special offers in exchange for buying a product which does not exist yet

And the actual product is $50, not $60.

If an extra character slot is not part of the actual product, then how can the price of the actual product be the cost of the actual product plus an optional addition?

This logic doesn’t even make sense. If you are going to complain about character slots not being baseline with the actual product, then do so, but don’t try to suggest that the actual product costs $10 more than it actually does simply to include something the developers have deemed optional.

What you are saying has nothing to do with what i said.

Ayrilana.1396:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Ayrilana.1396:

Gw2 was $60 and not $50. You don’t know how big/small HoT will be..

HOT is $60 bucks as well. So you are paying exactly the same.

And no we don’t know how big HOT will be. But we do know:

-It will be smaller than the core game, and thus shouldn’t cost the same.
-It’s a small expansion, not a full standalone expansion like in GW1.

Ayrilana.1396:

EotN and HoT are priced similar to their base games.

EotN was NOT priced similar to it’s core game. It was a lot cheaper than Prophecies.

You’re purposely inflating the cost for the extra character slot which comes free with pre-purchases. EotN was priced similar as I showed by showing the percentage of the original’s cost.

Prepurchase bonuses are irrelevant to the actual product. They are special offers in exchange for buying a product which does not exist yet

Ayrilana.1396:

Development costs are not the same. Do you really believe that development costs for Diablo 2 were the same as Diablo 3? How about Super Mario Bros to Super Mario World? Or Daggerfall to Morrowind? If you do then I’m shocked. If you don’t then how could you think that they would be the same between GW1 and GW2 core game/expansion? Higher costs tend to translate to higher prices.

Prices for games has not gone up in general since 2005. Nor has size gone down.
Ffxi cost 15 a month and had 40 dollar expansions 10 years ago. Ffxiv costs the same thing right now, and its very profitable.
Dark souls i cost 60 and dark souls 2 cost 60. Street fighter games costed 50 in the 90s and cost the same today.

Point is game prices have not inflated and game content has not deflated. So using that as an excuse is a fallacy

maddoctor.2738:

Zera Allimatti.2541:

Why hasn’t Kralkatorrik just flown all over Tyria (since merely by flying it corrupts everything below it.). Why hasn’t Primordus erupted out of the ground and scorched the world below? Why did Jormag not keep going south to finish off the Norn? They literally woke up just say hello and have done nothing.

This is something lot of people miss. The Elder Dragons are not the big “bad guys” out to destroy Tyria, they have a very specific task to do, drain magic from the world. They can do that without moving around and destroying everything in the world, they awoke, found the nearby most powerful layline, established their base there and started “drinking”.

Mordremoth attacked the Pale Tree because she is his lieutenant, much like how Kralk attacked Glint.

The only Elder Dragon action that doesn’t make much sense to me is the attack on Lion’s Arch by Zhaitan (Claw Island story)

Anet is inconsistent with their plotlines. Glint was created to subvert and control peoples minds at the will of her master.
Mordremoths actions are clearly malevolent as well as zhaitan.

Pale tree knows

morrolan.9608:

Given the number of elder dragons it doesn’t make sense to not fight mordy in hot. Also the LW was a lead up to HOT if it doesn’t provide a conclusion then structurally it won’t make sense as well as there undoubtedly being a negative reaction from players.

Your analysis is correct but that doesnt mean they are going to do it.

I doubt heart of thornes will have a complete story

Vayne.8563:

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Caution! Logic ahead! Enter at your own risk!

So let’s see “HoT” is more expensive because it’s an expansion…
Riiiiiiiiight.

So by that logic an xpansion that is smaller then core game, has already base game’s foundation (financial incomes, art & programming assets, general gameplay mechanics and direction, playerbase), should not be cheaper then the core game that has more of everything, is build from scratch facing much more challenges on every front then the xpac, and right now is way cheaper then the expansion…

Because you know….reasons!

HoT is more expansive because the entire landscape has changed, internally and externally and you ignore that.

My dad used to talk about getting into the theater for a nickle. I don’t pay a nickle anymore. Theaters are much more expensive and many of them aren’t really making much of a profit anymore. Times change.

Anet is a company that pays more employees, more rent, more to voice actors, the currency itself has inflated, the internal differences between working on a pathed game with no Z axis that’s entirely instanced makes a huge difference in both delivery time and the amount of work to produce the game, but you think it should cost $20 because it has “less content” when all the content has yet to be revealed.

For example, Nightfall had 250 plus quests and 20 missions. Seems like a lot. But we have nothing really to compare it to. Zones aren’t quests. They’re zones. They’re pathed.

I think I’ll wait to see what’s coming before comparing, but even if I do compare later…it’s still much later, and just about everything has changed.

There’s much more logic here than insisting you get the same deal on something 8 years later, between not only different games, but different genres of games. Guild Wars 1 was a lobby game…a CORPG not an MMO. It does make a huge difference in development time.

All the inflation talk might make sense if the price of games or the size of games had dramatically changed from 2005 to 2015. It hasnt. Games have been 40-60 dollars and been about the same length from then till now.

This game is substantially smaller as far as what we know, and costs more. Thats not really how other games price vs content has evolved.

I think anet justifies thia because they look at HOT as a subscription to thw future. But since they arent willing to talk about that future, its a pretty hard sell. (not to mention gw2 future is extremely changeable)

Vayne.8563:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Mo Mo.1947:

Let’s not forget the entire expac was based on community request and required them to change their business model.

LOL. As if Anet decided to do expansions because the community requested it.

More like LS was a total failure because new content releases did not come close to the “every two weeks” they advertised (and when it did come, it was extremely small bits of content).

So they probably took a hit on sales and gem sales. And so now they’re trying the expansion model.

The funny thing is, only their model for selling and releasing their content has changed. So if they were unable to create a decent amount of content for LS, there’s no reason to believe they’re able to create a decent amount of content for this new model. And judging from HoT previews, it does indeed look like there is a lack of content in this expansion.

As I’ve said multiple times in the past, I believe the reason the living story didn’t come as frequently as it was supposed to was because they were working on an expansion. You say the Living Story slowed down because they couldn’t keep up the rate. More logically, it slowed down because they were working on large background projects, some of which would make major changes to the game.

The pressure to come out with an expansion is just as likely a reason that they didn’t keep the two week cadence, and they just couldn’t do it. Suppose that all the devs who now work on the expansion and the changes that are required to make the expansion work were all working on LS.

Then they could probably have kept the two week cadence. Just a guess, but I think it’s a good one.

Nope they always had issues with two week cadence even from before they say they started work on the expansion.

And i think this expansion is going to fail at feeling like sn expansion.
Its going to be a version update, which is nice, but as far as pve content/adventure is the name of the game.

I think the goal is to lower the skill cap. Simple is the new fad in design.

Miss Lana.5276:

7 dungeons with 4 paths, 1 dungeon with 5 paths, fractals with 50 levels.

That’s effectively 83 dungeon paths for you to experience.

I don’t think gw2 really needs any more dungeons at this time – and I don’t think any more will be released for the base game itself.

The way fractals work calling them levels is inaccurate. Its closer to say it has many difficulty levels.
Id say fractals has about 3 dungeons worth of content.
Paths sometimes is like a whole new dungeln other times like a small variation.

Regardless id say it probably feels like it has 15-20 dungeons. Which would be a lot but most of them been done to death in 3 years.

Ayrilana.1396:

Cheeky Wizard.7496:

To Ayrilana.1396,

No offence intended, but after reading your repeated same view on this subject you not only sound like a high pressure sales person but I firmly believe you will pay any price for any product offered whilst under the opinion that it is an exclusive offer.

If you are a high pressure sales person are you on commission here?

If not it must be nice to have a never ending banking supply.

Either way, allow other peoples opinions to be read and not bullied by your same pressured replies, over, and over, and over, and over again.

Kind regards,

Cheeky

I personally feel that it’s worth the price which is why I purchased it. The extras that were available for the various editions were what I used to determine which edition that I bought.

The intent is not to bully people. I’ve intentionally tried to make sure that when it comes to making the purchase or not, I don’t force them to go one way or another. The only reasons that I have posted here is to clear of the confusion that the core game is included in the price of the expansion (which it is not) and the difference between value and cost including how they are not easily comparable between games.

There is no expansion for sale. Since no one has ever sold, or intends to sell the product alone, it is not for sale.

There is one product called gw2 heart of thornes. It is essentially the new version of gw2 and it has one price.

The fact that these items cannot be sold seperately means it deceptive to say you are getting one free.
It eould be like me selling a picture of man walking down the street and claiming im selling a picture of a man, and giving you a picture of a street free.
Its not accurate, its one picture. The price given is obviously for both since you cannot buy them seperately

I think they will probably have to iterate on it before the next round of specializations comes out.
Its very rigid

Vesuvius.9874:

phys.7689:

The premise of this thread was that, condi dmg should be weaker than direct dmg, before they changed the title or merged it or whatever

Why should it be weaker?

You want me to recap the main points of the debate?
Just like 3 posts up is one reason.
There are others.

And weaker is a bit vague lets say it should do less dps. It is stronger in other ways.

Algreg.3629:

you are not introvert – more of that later. I am introvert. Prolonged social interaction exhausts me. Still I do fine in social environments and eg. am especially good at presentations. It just takes more effort than for extrovert persons.

If you cannot interact with lines in a chat window – and people are nothing more in a mmorpg unless you invest in them – you are not introvert. You suffer from a rather manifest case of social anxiety. This is an ailment. A game company should not design their game around single cases of psychological disorder. You on the other hand should seek out treatment as your condition is probably affecting your life way beyond a computer game. Again, social anxiety does not equal “introvert”. I am not mocking you here. Seek help, I recommend CBT.

An interaction doesnt need to have physical body to be social. People speaking in text are still people.

The fact that you see these interactions as just lines of text gives some context to your posts.

I think the idea of an mmo is supposed to be able to work with solitary people, the problem is not everything can be for everyone and also there are limited resources

Belexes.4923:

phys.7689:

The highest direct dmg build gives 100% of its stats to dd

The highest condi dmg does not

and that is why direct damage lays out considerably more damage.

The premise of this thread was that, condi dmg should be weaker than direct dmg, before they changed the title or merged it or whatever

And are you sure that is still the case?

The highest direct dmg build gives 100% of its stats to dd

The highest condi dmg does not

Vesuvius.9874:

phys.7689:

People need to stop talking about condition duration like its a comparable stat. Condition duration isnt available on armor or accesories. The game is not built with condi duration as a primary or secondary stat.

They have moved even further away from it being a stat.

Point is you cant run condi duration in armor/accesories even if you want to. Which means for a max condi build you have an almost Complete secondary stats worth of another stat.

Essentially you get more for less investment

Wrong. Just like you need more precision to land more crits, you need more condi duration to maintain the stacks of condis you apply. Working hard to add a stack of condis that don’t last long is as dumb as running a power build without precision.

It doesnt matter. Because you cant actually get gear with condi dur on it.
The highest condi dmg build does not have condi dur on any armor or accesories.

This means it has extra stats left over and is still high dps.

People need to stop talking about condition duration like its a comparable stat. Condition duration isnt available on armor or accesories. The game is not built with condi duration as a primary or secondary stat.

They have moved even further away from it being a stat.

Point is you cant run condi duration in armor/accesories even if you want to. Which means for a max condi build you have an almost Complete secondary stats worth of another stat.

Essentially you get more for less investment

briggah.7910:

How is there less build diversity? Its a question don’t rage on me. I actually now have 2 builds for my elementalist when before I’d set it and forget it and just use 1 build. I also only tried 2 different trait lines so far. earth/water/arcane and fire/water/arcane. I came up with 2 builds that are just as fun. So I would guess if I tried a lightning I’d actually have 3 viable builds or even try more combos and come up with more builds that work as well. Way I see it is almost all the traits have some use to them and it really comes down to personal preference. Everyone has a different personal preference so it should make more builds being used. Old way most ran same builds because there was a lot of useless traits.

To answer the question about newer players like it over old players well been playing a long time. 2+ years I guess since I have the birthday blaster. My hours played across all toons is 7k+ and I prefer this new system.

edit: Oh and I did run weird builds before hand. like 0/1/2/6/5 and thought it would suck now since I could no longer use those builds. I did find a new build for those toons though and even with just 3 trait lines they seem better than my old build.

Most builds will be better now, because in order to fit so many traits into 9 slots they had to give them out as baseline.

They also made trait selection more obvious with less realistic choices so you are more likely to find the builds they designes for you.

Chances are whatever builds you are using now existes before, you just didnt see it.

These are part of the reasons they redesigned the trait system. However its also the flaw of the system. They have to limit possible playstyles. They cant be as creative and they cant expand much. They need new specs to create new styles, which will probably be rare, and wont be core.
For example the only way they could bring back a pistol pistol thf is via specialization or by taking something out. But since pp is a core playstyle you shouldnt need a spec to play it well.

Its not the end of the world but people gave up a lot for the primary purpose of being easier to start.

Easy to start easy to master.

Arkblue.6129:

phys.7689:

Arkblue.6129:

Unlike direct damage, Condition Damage can be cleansed and transferred. Also, the Resistance boon could become more available in the future reducing the effectiveness of Conditions.

While we are discussing this, I think that no build should always be the top dps regardless of content.
Assassin’s and Zerker’s should come close in terms of DPS, but I don’t see why Rampager or Sinister shouldn’t be there competing in the same range of viability.

I think Dire is really effective 1v1, but even there, if you can cleanse conditions, a Dire build deals almost no direct damage.

Condi cleanse isnt a magical solution.

Many cleans cure a random condition
Many cleanses cure only a few conditions at a time
Many cleanses require you to take specific specialization
Many condi cleanses use up a utility slot.

Right now condi ramps up to fast and can be re applied to easily for condi cleanse to be the answer for many jobs.

Condi was already extremely good in pvp and wvw. It definately didnt need multiple buffs.

Even most condition builds require multiple trait lines to work efficiently, otherwise you don’t have enough sources of Conditions to keep the Condition Damage up.

Almost every dps build requires multi traits, thats not unique to condi builds.

Arkblue.6129:

Unlike direct damage, Condition Damage can be cleansed and transferred. Also, the Resistance boon could become more available in the future reducing the effectiveness of Conditions.

While we are discussing this, I think that no build should always be the top dps regardless of content.
Assassin’s and Zerker’s should come close in terms of DPS, but I don’t see why Rampager or Sinister shouldn’t be there competing in the same range of viability.

I think Dire is really effective 1v1, but even there, if you can cleanse conditions, a Dire build deals almost no direct damage.

Condi cleanse isnt a magical solution.

Many cleans cure a random condition
Many cleanses cure only a few conditions at a time
Many cleanses require you to take specific specialization
Many condi cleanses use up a utility slot.

Right now condi ramps up to fast and can be re applied to easily for condi cleanse to be the answer for many jobs.

Condi was already extremely good in pvp and wvw. It definately didnt need multiple buffs.