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Posted by: ZeftheWicked.3076

ZeftheWicked.3076

Einstein said that if you can’t put it in two sentences, then you probably don’t have a firm enough grasp of the problem yet. Guess i don’t, cause i need three;)

The real problem of gw2 (and HoT along the way) is it’s extremely watered down.
It needs a sub.

What does “watered down” mean? Both good and bad things.
If you divide time played by $ spent it’s just…well, no competition. This game rocks.
So cost wise it’s purchase price is greatly watered down over time.

But if you recall the infrequent content drops of questionable sizes these past 3 years, once in blue moon balance patches and dumbing down of the game (NPE, trait changes #1 and recent abominations), there’s your negative watering down at it’s finest and the reason ppl discard trust torwards a-net and are not moving an inch till they get more information on what’s inside HoT.

So if anything the real problem is the B2P model. People may get great value for their buck, but i think it’s fair to say at least some of us need much bigger bang and would not mind paying bigger buck if we were to get proper value for it. Rest of ppl are fine with smaller bang like the one we have, but not for this kinda buck.

So i suggested it once and will again – consider optional subscription for players. One that frees them of gemstore trappings. Skins obtainable ingame, via challenges with new content, rather then behind gemshop paywall. Same for those perma logging tools. You got sub up, you got your chance to get them ingame.

P2P games don’t fail because this payment model is bad – it’s the best of all, and both WoW and FF XIV prove it.
They fail becuase you need a good game to make it work. Luckily GW2 (if this stupidity of dumbing down everything stops) can defend that title with considerable ease, as long as content is delivered in sizable chunks and proper frequency.

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

Content is only slow because they’re finishing up the expansion. If they weren’t working on it then you’d likely see something to the frequency is season one with the permanence of season two.

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Posted by: Terrahero.9358

Terrahero.9358

I could write a long post about why a sub is absolutely not the way to go. But i can be very short about it, it will never happen. Ever. Not with GW2 any way, they sold the game on “no sub” and “once you buy, free forever”.

Anet may have flopped on many things, but if they suddenly start charging 15$ a month just to keep logging in they might as well close shop. The amount of outrage, demand for refund and loss of respect would just shut them down right then and there.

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Posted by: Belzebu.3912

Belzebu.3912

WoW and FF XIV doesn’t prove it, they are the exception.
Many more P2P MMOs was forced to change to F2P/B2P because they couldn’t maintain that model and after the change they stabilized.

Charter Vanguard [CV] – HoD
Bardy Belzebuson – Ranger Sir Belzebu – Herald
(and the other 8 elite specs maxed too)

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Posted by: Genesis.8572

Genesis.8572

I’m always amused by the people who have been so thoroughly indoctrinated by the outdated MMO subscription model that they are convinced that it’s necessary and beneficial.

Will Hawkins (Human Guardian)
Feryl Grimsteel (Charr Engineer)
Tarnished Coast

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Posted by: Kaz.5430

Kaz.5430

they sold the game on “no sub” and “once you buy, free forever”.

Actually they specifically reserved the rights to change to a subscription model in the future, and left the ‘no subscription, free for ever’ stuff that was always on the GW1 boxes, off the box. However, they seem to have added the promise back to the box for HoT so that’s cool

They already developed a two tier subscribe-if-you want system, when they were rolling the game out to China. It’s called the VIP system, and it’s similar to the subscription systems in other B2P/F2P game like ESO, SWTOR etc.

However, when the game launched in China, these boards were full to the brim of threads saying that the VIP system must not come to NA/EU under any circumstances, so I doubt it would. But the code to implement one is written if they ever wanted to do it.

Here’s an example of what happened when an image referring to the chinese subscription system (but in english) was datamined https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/VIP-Membership/first

Monarchy - 15 year old browser-based game and roleplay community
Table Warfare Miniatures - Armatures, Custom Miniatures, Moulds etc.

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Posted by: Seera.5916

Seera.5916

1. We’re approaching EP release. They don’t have unlimited manpower. They’re putting the manpower they have in the place where it’s needed: expansion. So you have not found the correct reason as to why content is not coming out.

2. Would the money brought in from the players that do sub exceed the current profits earned by people buying gems? How many players who currently buy a lot of gems would continue to do so if there was a sub fee?

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Posted by: penelopehannibal.8947

penelopehannibal.8947

Guild Wars 2 was marketed to be different to other MMOs partially by not having a sub. If you thought the uproar over the HoT Price and free base game was huge, imagine what it would be like to lock people out of the game with a sub!

(2 Sentences )

Blood & Merlot [Wine]

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Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

I’m always amused by the people who have been so thoroughly indoctrinated by the outdated MMO subscription model that they are convinced that it’s necessary and beneficial.

I wont say its neccessary, but the reality is your going to pay people to plAy in some shape or form.

Wethers its pay attention to advrrtisements
Pay by promoting the game to your friends
Pay by buying extras
Pay by producing gold for the company to sell
Pay by being the lower class plebians for others to look down on.

There is always a cost with any monetization strategy.

Now for gw2 i think a yearly buy 2 play version update is about as close as they can come to a subscription.

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Posted by: Genesis.8572

Genesis.8572

There is always a cost with any monetization strategy.

Now for gw2 i think a yearly buy 2 play version update is about as close as they can come to a subscription.

Buying expansions is the same for many subscription models too. I would say the closest that GW2 gets to a subscription is the Living Story 2 that’s free for players who unlock the content but costs a fee for the rest.

Will Hawkins (Human Guardian)
Feryl Grimsteel (Charr Engineer)
Tarnished Coast

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Posted by: ZeftheWicked.3076

ZeftheWicked.3076

I’m always amused by the people who have been so thoroughly indoctrinated by the outdated MMO subscription model that they are convinced that it’s necessary and beneficial.

I’m quite amused myself that someone just said what you did with straight face and good faith he’right.

My “indoctrination” begun oh..10 days ago? So yeah, it’s veeeery ancient;) Till that time it’s been F2P and GW2.
And how they got me you ask? With hairdresser. I got a quest to help this guy get his hairdressing tools back, which i do, heck nothing better to do atm. After getting all things together i get the expected one time hairstyle change coupon.

What i did not expect is that from this moment on i’d be able to call him as many times as i like and have my hairstyle changed for 2k ingame currency. No real $$ required. I dare you, I double dare you to try that with F2P or GW2 and not feel sore all over your wallet.

Then it hit me. There’s no paywalls to cool stuff with FF XiV sub (i say FF XIV because i know SWTOR tries to still nickle and dime even sub players via their cash shop). I don’t have to watch endless waves of cool weapons and armor flow into some cash shop instead as rewards for doing actual ingame content.

When they guy in radical armor stands next to me – i know he earned it.
No “whales” and no “freeloaders” everyone has really equal footing here. Money’s left at entrance and then just play on, no strings attached. I can live with that kinda deal, and actully am, right now. And if it loses it’s luster – i’ll stop paying and that’s done:>

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Posted by: Genesis.8572

Genesis.8572

I’m quite amused myself that someone just said what you did with straight face and good faith he’right.

Did I stutter?

My “indoctrination” begun oh..10 days ago? So yeah, it’s veeeery ancient;) Till that time it’s been F2P and GW2.
And how they got me you ask? With hairdresser. I got a quest to help this guy get his hairdressing tools back, which i do, heck nothing better to do atm. After getting all things together i get the expected one time hairstyle change coupon.

What i did not expect is that from this moment on i’d be able to call him as many times as i like and have my hairstyle changed for 2k ingame currency. No real $$ required. I dare you, I double dare you to try that with F2P or GW2 and not feel sore all over your wallet.

I dare to get my character’s hairstyle right the first time. This does not strike me as a compelling argument for a subscription.

Then it hit me. There’s no paywalls to cool stuff with FF XiV sub (i say FF XIV because i know SWTOR tries to still nickle and dime even sub players via their cash shop). I don’t have to watch endless waves of cool weapons and armor flow into some cash shop instead as rewards for doing actual ingame content.

When they guy in radical armor stands next to me – i know he earned it.
No “whales” and no “freeloaders” everyone has really equal footing here. Money’s left at entrance and then just play on, no strings attached. I can live with that kinda deal, and actully am, right now. And if it loses it’s luster – i’ll stop paying and that’s done:>

A subscription is its own paywall that often comes with a timewall to encourage the continued use of the subscription through the potential chance of getting that cool stuff. What you are describing though has always been a part of the subscription model. Nothing new. And there’s a reason why many of us left it for the GW2 model that we now have. If you want the FF14 model then play FF14. But don’t try to make GW2 into a game that it is not.

Will Hawkins (Human Guardian)
Feryl Grimsteel (Charr Engineer)
Tarnished Coast

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Posted by: Fenom.9457

Fenom.9457

I also have a theory they’re doing ground work on several more xpacs so that starting with HoT they can release xpacs on a reliable schedule such as 6 months or a year or something.

Want to read about a nice mini expansion to make Mordremoth and Zhaitan better?
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Mini-Expansion-Vengeance/first#post6473305

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Posted by: TheDaiBish.9735

TheDaiBish.9735

Are you honestly suggesting that the changes to the Trait system and the NPE are down to the B2P model? o.O

Personally I wouldn’t have an issue with an optional sub with benefits, but I’d much rather purchase one-off small DLC packs (think the Bonus Mission Pack from GW1) containing said skins.

Life is a journey.
Time is a river.
The door is ajar.

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Posted by: Orochimaru.4730

Orochimaru.4730

No wait in hell will I pay a sub for this game now!

I am only willing to pay £25 for HoT.

The reason is that Anet have neglected WvW so much, lied to our faces, done less than even the most minimum any developer should on a game mode, and alienated us all.

Sorry but I dont think this is a company I would like to invest money in, but that’s my opinion, so no “you arent being forced to buy it” type replies please.
If anet can produce results for WvW in the next year then yes, maybe next expansion I will be willing to pay £35 for it; but right now my faith in the future of this game and WvW are less than slim, in fact I currently have no faith in them any more.

In the meantime I have bought Ark Survival Evolved and have been have great fun on it! Was a bargain at £19, and it’s still in Early Alpha with their devs releasing updates and fixes almost every day!!! Anet can learn from them!

(edited by Moderator)

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Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

I’m quite amused myself that someone just said what you did with straight face and good faith he’right.

Did I stutter?

My “indoctrination” begun oh..10 days ago? So yeah, it’s veeeery ancient;) Till that time it’s been F2P and GW2.
And how they got me you ask? With hairdresser. I got a quest to help this guy get his hairdressing tools back, which i do, heck nothing better to do atm. After getting all things together i get the expected one time hairstyle change coupon.

What i did not expect is that from this moment on i’d be able to call him as many times as i like and have my hairstyle changed for 2k ingame currency. No real $$ required. I dare you, I double dare you to try that with F2P or GW2 and not feel sore all over your wallet.

I dare to get my character’s hairstyle right the first time. This does not strike me as a compelling argument for a subscription.

Then it hit me. There’s no paywalls to cool stuff with FF XiV sub (i say FF XIV because i know SWTOR tries to still nickle and dime even sub players via their cash shop). I don’t have to watch endless waves of cool weapons and armor flow into some cash shop instead as rewards for doing actual ingame content.

When they guy in radical armor stands next to me – i know he earned it.
No “whales” and no “freeloaders” everyone has really equal footing here. Money’s left at entrance and then just play on, no strings attached. I can live with that kinda deal, and actully am, right now. And if it loses it’s luster – i’ll stop paying and that’s done:>

A subscription is its own paywall that often comes with a timewall to encourage the continued use of the subscription through the potential chance of getting that cool stuff. What you are describing though has always been a part of the subscription model. Nothing new. And there’s a reason why many of us left it for the GW2 model that we now have. If you want the FF14 model then play FF14. But don’t try to make GW2 into a game that it is not.

Time wall isnt really a thing anymore. In ffxiv you can get max level gear faster than you can in gw2. Turns out both cash shop and subscription games need to keep people playing. Subs generally do it with lots of content currently, at least for ffxiv.

Its a price you pay, depending on what you want out of the game different monetization strategies resonate with you.

Subscription is far from an inferior value, but this game was sold to people who tend to prefer a different model. Changing that now would be an extremely hard sell

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Posted by: psizone.8437

psizone.8437

I think you misunderstand why WoW and FFXIV succeed as a p2p game.

WoW, EvE and other older mmos work with subscriptions since their players are already committed, having been playing since before f2p became the norm, and most of them (even WoW) are slowly losing their playerbases. Some other games, like FF succeed because the franchise it’s based on has a huge fanbase that are willing to pay for it.

Almost every other game that tries to go with a subscription fails within a year and goes f2p with an optional sub, not necessarily because the games are bad, but because people that would pay for a sub are in the minority now.

Guild Wars 2 is the king of “casual” mmos right now, being affordable and easy to get into, going with a subscription would kill off that “casual” playerbase and wouldn’t gain many subscribers since, as I stated above, that’s a failing platform these days.

Brotherhood of Blub [blub]

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

Because sub games always come out with huge amounts of content and sub games never dumb the game down. lol

Research is your friend. For years WoW players complain about not enough content between paid expansions, they leave in the millions between expansions, and they’ve been complaining about the game being dumbed down.

Blaming this stuff on the buy to play model probably requires a bit more evidence than just saying that’s the reason.

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Posted by: CambrianExplosion.6394

CambrianExplosion.6394

Because sub games always come out with huge amounts of content and sub games never dumb the game down. lol

Research is your friend. For years WoW players complain about not enough content between paid expansions, they leave in the millions between expansions, and they’ve been complaining about the game being dumbed down.

Blaming this stuff on the buy to play model probably requires a bit more evidence than just saying that’s the reason.

Compared to the older expansions, the recent WoW expansions have been getting less content in between. But compared to GW2, they’ve been getting way more than us. Hell, they recently just got a new raid with new gear like a week ago. The game has definitely had its fair share of ‘dumbing down’ though. Can’t speak for FFXIV.

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Posted by: Charrbeque.8729

Charrbeque.8729

Einstein said that if you can’t put it in two sentences, then you probably don’t have a firm enough grasp of the problem yet. Guess i don’t, cause i need three;)

The real problem of gw2 (and HoT along the way) is it’s extremely watered down.
It needs a sub.

What does “watered down” mean? Both good and bad things.
If you divide time played by $ spent it’s just…well, no competition. This game rocks.
So cost wise it’s purchase price is greatly watered down over time.

But if you recall the infrequent content drops of questionable sizes these past 3 years, once in blue moon balance patches and dumbing down of the game (NPE, trait changes #1 and recent abominations), there’s your negative watering down at it’s finest and the reason ppl discard trust torwards a-net and are not moving an inch till they get more information on what’s inside HoT.

So if anything the real problem is the B2P model. People may get great value for their buck, but i think it’s fair to say at least some of us need much bigger bang and would not mind paying bigger buck if we were to get proper value for it. Rest of ppl are fine with smaller bang like the one we have, but not for this kinda buck.

So i suggested it once and will again – consider optional subscription for players. One that frees them of gemstore trappings. Skins obtainable ingame, via challenges with new content, rather then behind gemshop paywall. Same for those perma logging tools. You got sub up, you got your chance to get them ingame.

P2P games don’t fail because this payment model is bad – it’s the best of all, and both WoW and FF XIV prove it.
They fail becuase you need a good game to make it work. Luckily GW2 (if this stupidity of dumbing down everything stops) can defend that title with considerable ease, as long as content is delivered in sizable chunks and proper frequency.

They aren’t releasing content as fast as you want so you automatically assume the company isn’t doing financially well and the only way to solve that issue is to force people to pay more money for the game?

Did you even think this through?

The game has been out for almost 3 years now. If they attached a subscription to it now, do you know what would happen? You would be getting even less content. In fact, you wouldn’t get any content because players would leave the game in droves and they would end up having to shut it down because nobody wants to be forced to constantly pay for something they’ve been able to play for free for so long after buying it.

Look at other games that started out with subscriptions. A lot of them went free-to-play or are going to soon (did you hear about Wildstar?) Games go F2P because they aren’t making enough money to support the game anymore, and sometimes the F2P way brings back players along with new players and the company ends up doing even better than they did with a sub attached to it. The GW business model has worked for so many years. They’re not going to change it just because you want stuff and you want it now.

This is nothing more than a self-entitlement rant from someone who doesn’t have patience. It takes time to create new content. They have to go through a lot of testing and bug fixing before they release it. If you want new content now, pre-purchase the expansion. It’s coming soon and you’ll have a lot of stuff to do when it releases.

Edit: And if you really want to pay a monthly subscription there are plenty of games out there that offer that choice. Nobody is forcing you to play this game. Don’t let the door hit you in the kitten on the way out.

There’s something charming about rangers.

(edited by Charrbeque.8729)

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Posted by: Dark Saviour.9410

Dark Saviour.9410

Then it hit me. There’s no paywalls to cool stuff with FF XiV sub

So, how’s that Sleipnir mount? Or those Y’shtola and Yda minions?

Gone for good after Halloween 2Ø12.
A shame fun things could not simply be fun.

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Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

Then it hit me. There’s no paywalls to cool stuff with FF XiV sub

So, how’s that Sleipnir mount? Or those Y’shtola and Yda minions?

Thats not cool

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

Because sub games always come out with huge amounts of content and sub games never dumb the game down. lol

Research is your friend. For years WoW players complain about not enough content between paid expansions, they leave in the millions between expansions, and they’ve been complaining about the game being dumbed down.

Blaming this stuff on the buy to play model probably requires a bit more evidence than just saying that’s the reason.

Compared to the older expansions, the recent WoW expansions have been getting less content in between. But compared to GW2, they’ve been getting way more than us. Hell, they recently just got a new raid with new gear like a week ago. The game has definitely had its fair share of ‘dumbing down’ though. Can’t speak for FFXIV.

The expansions are big, sure. The time with no updates at all between expansions however has grown. Which means that those who are subscribed aren’t paying $50 for an expansion. They’re paying $90 plus the price of an expansion in monthly fees. I have people in my guild who play WoW. The last time lasted about six weeks. the expansion came out, they played for six weeks and left again.

Again,. if you’re paying a monthly sub, you’re paying for an expansion all the time. Or you unsub and don’t have access to your game at all.

Subs are a terrible idea for most games. WoW gets away with it because of their longevity and their advertising power. FF gets away with it because Final Fantasy is a very very strong IP. The Final Fantasy series has been popular for a long long time. It’s a stronger brand that Guild Wars ever was.

But ESO had to go free to play and SWToR had to go free to play (and that’s both Star Wars and Bioware), so I’m not sure why you think any game but the very rare exception could possibly go sub.

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Posted by: adormtil.1605

adormtil.1605

Some prove it some disprove it. The subscription model has a high chance of failing.

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Posted by: CambrianExplosion.6394

CambrianExplosion.6394

Because sub games always come out with huge amounts of content and sub games never dumb the game down. lol

Research is your friend. For years WoW players complain about not enough content between paid expansions, they leave in the millions between expansions, and they’ve been complaining about the game being dumbed down.

Blaming this stuff on the buy to play model probably requires a bit more evidence than just saying that’s the reason.

Compared to the older expansions, the recent WoW expansions have been getting less content in between. But compared to GW2, they’ve been getting way more than us. Hell, they recently just got a new raid with new gear like a week ago. The game has definitely had its fair share of ‘dumbing down’ though. Can’t speak for FFXIV.

The expansions are big, sure. The time with no updates at all between expansions however has grown. Which means that those who are subscribed aren’t paying $50 for an expansion. They’re paying $90 plus the price of an expansion in monthly fees. I have people in my guild who play WoW. The last time lasted about six weeks. the expansion came out, they played for six weeks and left again.

Again,. if you’re paying a monthly sub, you’re paying for an expansion all the time. Or you unsub and don’t have access to your game at all.

Subs are a terrible idea for most games. WoW gets away with it because of their longevity and their advertising power. FF gets away with it because Final Fantasy is a very very strong IP. The Final Fantasy series has been popular for a long long time. It’s a stronger brand that Guild Wars ever was.

But ESO had to go free to play and SWToR had to go free to play (and that’s both Star Wars and Bioware), so I’m not sure why you think any game but the very rare exception could possibly go sub.

Well no, I mean they get large content updates in between expansions too. In the time since WoD was released, they got two raids and a new zone 3 times the size of SW. While we’ve just gotten SW.

WoW and FF both get away with it because people feel the game is worth paying a monthly subscription for. The people who play those games aren’t morons who pay the monthly sub for some reason other than that. Perhaps most people don’t feel ESO and SWToR are worth the subscription, which is why most people don’t pay the subcription, simple as that. Also, I never said any game can get away with a sub. Games that leave people justified in paying a sub, can get away with having a sub.

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

Because sub games always come out with huge amounts of content and sub games never dumb the game down. lol

Research is your friend. For years WoW players complain about not enough content between paid expansions, they leave in the millions between expansions, and they’ve been complaining about the game being dumbed down.

Blaming this stuff on the buy to play model probably requires a bit more evidence than just saying that’s the reason.

Compared to the older expansions, the recent WoW expansions have been getting less content in between. But compared to GW2, they’ve been getting way more than us. Hell, they recently just got a new raid with new gear like a week ago. The game has definitely had its fair share of ‘dumbing down’ though. Can’t speak for FFXIV.

The expansions are big, sure. The time with no updates at all between expansions however has grown. Which means that those who are subscribed aren’t paying $50 for an expansion. They’re paying $90 plus the price of an expansion in monthly fees. I have people in my guild who play WoW. The last time lasted about six weeks. the expansion came out, they played for six weeks and left again.

Again,. if you’re paying a monthly sub, you’re paying for an expansion all the time. Or you unsub and don’t have access to your game at all.

Subs are a terrible idea for most games. WoW gets away with it because of their longevity and their advertising power. FF gets away with it because Final Fantasy is a very very strong IP. The Final Fantasy series has been popular for a long long time. It’s a stronger brand that Guild Wars ever was.

But ESO had to go free to play and SWToR had to go free to play (and that’s both Star Wars and Bioware), so I’m not sure why you think any game but the very rare exception could possibly go sub.

Well no, I mean they get large content updates in between expansions too. In the time since WoD was released, they got two raids and a new zone 3 times the size of SW. While we’ve just gotten SW.

WoW and FF both get away with it because people feel the game is worth paying a monthly subscription for. The people who play those games aren’t morons who pay the monthly sub for some reason other than that. Perhaps most people don’t feel ESO and SWToR are worth the subscription, which is why most people don’t pay the subcription, simple as that. Also, I never said any game can get away with a sub. Games that leave people justified in paying a sub, can get away with having a sub.

We didn’t just get SW though. You ignore all the story quests we got, which you may not like but you can’t say they’re not content. And everyone I know that plays WOW, as an expansion approaches, simply tells me how bored they are, and that there’s no new content.

But you’re still paying for it all the time. Every month you play the game, you’re paying. So if you don’t like raids, and I don’t, Guild Wars 2 is offering me more content than WoW would.

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Posted by: Bubi.7942

Bubi.7942

Agreed with OP.

If Anet wants to keep going, it’s time for sub.

And for players, it’s time for SAB.

Attachments:

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Posted by: Genesis.8572

Genesis.8572

Well no, I mean they get large content updates in between expansions too. In the time since WoD was released, they got two raids and a new zone 3 times the size of SW. While we’ve just gotten SW.

That “new zone” was supposed to be released at the launch of WoD, as well as the Fields of Farahlon, which also got scrapped from release. As such, many WoW players don’t consider the Tanaan Jungle a “new zone” at all. Plus, some of those raids were supposed to also be released at launch. By most accounts, WoD was a dud in terms of the content it delivered for the cost of the game and the subscription with its “new patch content” just being stuff that should have been already in place at their launch. There’s a reason why Blizzard lost a third of their subscribers within one quarter. Who even knows how many more they lost come the upcoming second quarter report.

Will Hawkins (Human Guardian)
Feryl Grimsteel (Charr Engineer)
Tarnished Coast

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Posted by: BammBamm.6719

BammBamm.6719

yeah sure, because there is no mmo outthere with sub and ADDITIONAL ingame shop

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in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: ZeftheWicked.3076

ZeftheWicked.3076

These die fast – B&S went F2P, same SWTOR, and that one is generally a cash grab, famous for putting manpower into cash shop and not new content.

That’s the beauty of P2P – kitten that will be forgiven in F2P or B2P will not slide with players there. Game has to be cared for and run honestly, else down it goes. There are no “whale players” no burst incomes save x-pac releases – devs gotta care and cater to players all the time, because the whip of unsubbing is constantly in player’s hands.

kittenty and poorly managed games will die hard and fast in P2P model. SWTOR, WildStar, B&S (they were too greedy). But GW2 could thrive, and free itself from gem store shackles. But to each his own.

Oh. And i’m sure a-net is not doing too HoT. Notice how much gemshop picked up recent time and all the hard marketing around pre-purchase. They need money and they need it now! Least that’s what their actions bespeak of.

(edited by ZeftheWicked.3076)

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in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: TheDaiBish.9735

TheDaiBish.9735

kittenty and poorly managed games will die hard and fast in P2P model. SWTOR, WildStar, B&S (they were too greedy). But GW2 could thrive, and free itself from gem store shackles. But to each his own.

I find it very unlikely that the game will thrive moving to a sub model.

The game was sold as B2P. Suddenly asking players to pay per month just to access the game is more likely to result in players leaving the game in swarms, than picking up and retaining players.

Unless of course you have an instance where a F2P/B2P game has added a mandatory sub and actually thrived, I remain unconvinced.

Oh. And i’m sure a-net is not doing too HoT. Notice how much gemshop picked up recent time and all the hard marketing around pre-purchase. They need money and they need it now! Least that’s what their actions bespeak of.

What, you mean the once a week that it’s always updated?

And of course they’re pushing pre-purchase. It’d be kind of daft to say ‘well, pre-purchase is open’ and then not mention it again.

Life is a journey.
Time is a river.
The door is ajar.

(edited by TheDaiBish.9735)

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in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: penelopehannibal.8947

penelopehannibal.8947

The good thing about Guild Wars 2 is, anyone can play it, whether they can afford a sub fee or not.

Blood & Merlot [Wine]

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in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Kurogami.9210

Kurogami.9210

If people had to pay a monthly subscription for GW2 ANet would lose more money because of players leaving the game or not buying it than they would earn through the subs.

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in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Varezenem.2813

Varezenem.2813

Notice how much gemshop picked up recent time and all the hard marketing around pre-purchase. They need money and they need it now! Least that’s what their actions bespeak of.

As far as I can remember BLTC has always been updated in a weekly basis. Especially since they created the outfits.

Senbu Ren[Wind]
Herald of Ventari

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in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: ZeftheWicked.3076

ZeftheWicked.3076

And do you recall Black lion skins, which i dare say are the #1 gem store profit source pushed out so often as recenly?

Daydreamer, mad scientist and now legacy skins come out at machine gun speed, putting pressure to open those black lion chests faster, before they go up in price.

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in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

Because sub games always come out with huge amounts of content and sub games never dumb the game down. lol

Research is your friend. For years WoW players complain about not enough content between paid expansions, they leave in the millions between expansions, and they’ve been complaining about the game being dumbed down.

Blaming this stuff on the buy to play model probably requires a bit more evidence than just saying that’s the reason.

Compared to the older expansions, the recent WoW expansions have been getting less content in between. But compared to GW2, they’ve been getting way more than us. Hell, they recently just got a new raid with new gear like a week ago. The game has definitely had its fair share of ‘dumbing down’ though. Can’t speak for FFXIV.

The expansions are big, sure. The time with no updates at all between expansions however has grown. Which means that those who are subscribed aren’t paying $50 for an expansion. They’re paying $90 plus the price of an expansion in monthly fees. I have people in my guild who play WoW. The last time lasted about six weeks. the expansion came out, they played for six weeks and left again.

Again,. if you’re paying a monthly sub, you’re paying for an expansion all the time. Or you unsub and don’t have access to your game at all.

Subs are a terrible idea for most games. WoW gets away with it because of their longevity and their advertising power. FF gets away with it because Final Fantasy is a very very strong IP. The Final Fantasy series has been popular for a long long time. It’s a stronger brand that Guild Wars ever was.

But ESO had to go free to play and SWToR had to go free to play (and that’s both Star Wars and Bioware), so I’m not sure why you think any game but the very rare exception could possibly go sub.

Ff does it because they offer a very strong product and service. They spent the props of the ip long ago. Ffxiv had a horrible name and expectation attached to it after the first version fell. Everyone predicted it would be a large failure and waste of development.

Here is the real deal. People are willing to pay you if they feel your product is worth the price.

The real reason people dont like this expansion price is because due to past service and what it seems like the expansion is offering, they dont know if its worth it.

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in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: adormtil.1605

adormtil.1605

Why did ESO went f2p it had a ton of content one of the best pvp in the industry.PVE was great so why?
Is it maybe because the market can only sustain a few subscription MMO?

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in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Genesis.8572

Genesis.8572

These die fast – B&S went F2P, same SWTOR, and that one is generally a cash grab, famous for putting manpower into cash shop and not new content.

That’s the beauty of P2P – kitten that will be forgiven in F2P or B2P will not slide with players there. Game has to be cared for and run honestly, else down it goes. There are no “whale players” no burst incomes save x-pac releases – devs gotta care and cater to players all the time, because the whip of unsubbing is constantly in player’s hands.

Such idealistic rubbish about the P2P model.

kittenty and poorly managed games will die hard and fast in P2P model.

WoW says hello.

SWTOR, WildStar, B&S (they were too greedy). But GW2 could thrive, and free itself from gem store shackles. But to each his own.

Yes, to each their own. And GW2’s own choose B2P as it was advertised and designed around.

Oh. And i’m sure a-net is not doing too HoT. Notice how much gemshop picked up recent time and all the hard marketing around pre-purchase. They need money and they need it now! Least that’s what their actions bespeak of.

You’re seeing things in your feeble attempt to form a conspiracy. These TP releases are as regular as usual with the same sort of items as have always been released. If these hot items are coming out with more frequency it’s probably because ArenaNet is learning what items sell better and making informed decisions around that. Nothing more than that.

Will Hawkins (Human Guardian)
Feryl Grimsteel (Charr Engineer)
Tarnished Coast

(edited by Genesis.8572)

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in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: TheSwede.9512

TheSwede.9512

You can subscribe to this game if you want.

For just 10€ a month, you will get 800 gems from the Black Lion Store! In fact, all those skins, tools and other cool things will be readily available to you within just a few months if you subscribe to the Black Lion Trading Company. Other plebs much pay their hard-earned gold for a whiff of the goodies you get by being a loyal and paying subscriber to their services.

So what are you waiting for? A literal gold mine of pretties is just waiting for you to open your wallet, and it’s not actually Steam this time! Gnashblade appreciates all your help in making the BLTC the biggest player on the market.

Warrior – Wardancer | Guardian – Lorekeeper | Revenant – Vindicator |
Thief – Duelist | Ranger – Strider | Engineer – Technician |
Elementalist – Spellweaver | Necromancer – Warlock | Mesmer – Trickster |

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in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Many.8419

Many.8419

I wouldn’t spend a minute longer in this game if there was a sub fee. It’s not worthy paying monthly fee and I doubt it ever will be.

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in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

Because sub games always come out with huge amounts of content and sub games never dumb the game down. lol

Research is your friend. For years WoW players complain about not enough content between paid expansions, they leave in the millions between expansions, and they’ve been complaining about the game being dumbed down.

Blaming this stuff on the buy to play model probably requires a bit more evidence than just saying that’s the reason.

Compared to the older expansions, the recent WoW expansions have been getting less content in between. But compared to GW2, they’ve been getting way more than us. Hell, they recently just got a new raid with new gear like a week ago. The game has definitely had its fair share of ‘dumbing down’ though. Can’t speak for FFXIV.

The expansions are big, sure. The time with no updates at all between expansions however has grown. Which means that those who are subscribed aren’t paying $50 for an expansion. They’re paying $90 plus the price of an expansion in monthly fees. I have people in my guild who play WoW. The last time lasted about six weeks. the expansion came out, they played for six weeks and left again.

Again,. if you’re paying a monthly sub, you’re paying for an expansion all the time. Or you unsub and don’t have access to your game at all.

Subs are a terrible idea for most games. WoW gets away with it because of their longevity and their advertising power. FF gets away with it because Final Fantasy is a very very strong IP. The Final Fantasy series has been popular for a long long time. It’s a stronger brand that Guild Wars ever was.

But ESO had to go free to play and SWToR had to go free to play (and that’s both Star Wars and Bioware), so I’m not sure why you think any game but the very rare exception could possibly go sub.

Ff does it because they offer a very strong product and service. They spent the props of the ip long ago. Ffxiv had a horrible name and expectation attached to it after the first version fell. Everyone predicted it would be a large failure and waste of development.

Here is the real deal. People are willing to pay you if they feel your product is worth the price.

The real reason people dont like this expansion price is because due to past service and what it seems like the expansion is offering, they dont know if its worth it.

The real deal is even with the huge IP, FFXIV is about as popular as Guild Wars 2. That’s the real deal. And for me, it’s completely unplayable. That’s also the real deal.

These are very different games, and if you’re not an FF fan and you’re not interested in what traditional MMOs offer, FFXIV is completely unplayable. I couldn’t even play it if it were free to play.

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in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: ZeftheWicked.3076

ZeftheWicked.3076

I play it just fine, though it is a very different game, that lacks where GW2 thrives, and thrives where GW2 lacks.

But this isn’t about one game vs another, this is about one payment model vs another. P2P is in many ways superior to B2P if it is done honestly (like FF XiV and not like SWTOR).

Devs get steady stream of revenue, players get quality service, frequent content drops and no cool stuff getting locked behind cash shop paywall.
If devs/publishers try to breach that model, they take a nose dive and go bankrupt, because if you introduce cash shop and start milking it in a P2P then there’s no reason to not just grab a F2P or B2P games that have that too.

Failure to understand that you need quality game, with quality service, and be wary of cash shops is the reason so many P2P took a hard nose dive. It had nothing to do with payment model being bad, it had everything to do with their failure to understand how it works.

(edited by ZeftheWicked.3076)

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in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

I play it just fine, though it is a very different game, that lacks where GW2 thrives, and thrives where GW2 lacks.

But this isn’t about one game vs another, this is about one payment model vs another. P2P is in many ways superior to B2P if it is done honestly (like FF XiV and not like SWTOR).

Devs get steady stream of revenue, players get quality service, frequent content drops and no cool stuff getting locked behind cash shop paywall.
If devs/publishers try to breach that model, they take a nose dive and go bankrupt, because if you introduce cash shop and start milking it in a P2P then there’s no reason to just grab a F2P or B2P games that have that too.

Failure to understand that you need quality game, with quality service, and be wary of cash shops is the reason so many P2P took a hard nose dive. It had nothing to do with payment model being bad, it had everything to do with their failure to understand how it works.

P2P hasn’t worked in game, after game after game., particularly here in the west. It may well work well in the East however. Saying it’s better doesn’t make it better. I’ve never liked any of the pay to play games, so I don’t know how it makes games better.

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in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: ZeftheWicked.3076

ZeftheWicked.3076

Didn’t work because the games were kittenty, lacked quality, or basic business ethics when being run.

Wildstar had horrid optimization to point of being unplayable for many at launch despite having reasonably specced machines.
ESO was an abomination at launch, angry joe’s review says it all.
SWTOR didn’t provide enough new content for P2P standard for what i heard.

Any model with cash shop at front, suffers from basic contradiction – do developers focus their powers on cash shop stuff, or the actual game. And even once that reaches a healthy balance there’s still the questions how much content goes into the game and how many gets gated with $$ in cash shop. This is empoverishing the game, and opening a door for many abusive practices.

With P2P deal is simple. You pay, every month. But you know what you pay for – a full game, with no parts cut out due to monetizing policy. Least in 95% of game’s content, assuming real life is not that pretty. If they fail to uhold that rule and quality service you walk, and they drop into the real of F2P.

Pay 2 Play is a screaming seal of quality if a game survives over 2 years on that model. That or really really rabid fanbase. And as much as like Final Fantasy, i’m no rabid fanboy to overlook shady dealings when i see them.

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in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

Didn’t work because the games were kittenty, lacked quality, or basic business ethics when being run.

Wildstar had horrid optimization to point of being unplayable for many at launch despite having reasonably specced machines.
ESO was an abomination at launch, angry joe’s review says it all.
SWTOR didn’t provide enough new content for P2P standard for what i heard.

Any model with cash shop at front, suffers from basic contradiction – do developers focus their powers on cash shop stuff, or the actual game. And even once that reaches a healthy balance there’s still the questions how much content goes into the game and how many gets gated with $$ in cash shop. This is empoverishing the game, and opening a door for many abusive practices.

With P2P deal is simple. You pay, every month. But you know what you pay for – a full game, with no parts cut out due to monetizing policy. Least in 95% of game’s content, assuming real life is not that pretty. If they fail to uhold that rule and quality service you walk, and they drop into the real of F2P.

Pay 2 Play is a screaming seal of quality if a game survives over 2 years on that model. That or really really rabid fanbase. And as much as like Final Fantasy, i’m no rabid fanboy to overlook shady dealings when i see them.

I don’t overlook shady dealings either. But for my playstyle, Final Fantasy sucks and you can’t discount the popularity of the series, even if you say it has no affect. I believe it does. STWoR has Star Wars and Bioware behind it, and it still couldn’t maintain it. In order for a P2P game to come out NOW, it would have to be able to compete contentwise with WoW and FF. I’m not seeing. it. MMOs take too long to produce, so older ones have advantage over newer ones.

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in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Walhalla.5473

Walhalla.5473

Ok would someone explain to me why a Sub Fee would help GW2?
All I can see is that a Sub Fee would kill this Game faster then the WoR Cheese would kill Lupi.

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in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: LanfearShadowflame.3189

LanfearShadowflame.3189

Going to quote myself from the last time this “GW2 needs a sub fee” topic came up

I have played sub based games, but I honestly don’t feel there is even one that is worth that monthly payment. Not in addition to having to purchase the game, purchase the expansions, and end up time gated all to hell. Overcharged is what that is.

I enjoy GW2. I plan on buying HoT when it gets released, but GW1 has me spoiled. I know it’s completely possible for a company to produce and maintain a game on box sales and gem shop cosmetics (cause they’re doing it now, and they did it with the prior model). Additionally, having a sub fee isn’t a guarantee of more content more often, or even better quality content. So how does a sub fee benefit me as a consumer? In short, it doesn’t. All it does is create a barrier to entry for those that can’t necessarily afford a monthly subscription fee (for any assortment of reasons) in addition to buying the game.

Although it would perhaps offer Anet a more reliable/guaranteed cash flow with which to pay their employees’ salaries. However, as long as they regularly put new shinies in the gem shop, that achieves essentially the same result.

Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.

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in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: CureForLiving.5360

CureForLiving.5360

Not having a sub fee really does help GW2 to deflect a lot of flak. For example no new content? Well WoW had a year with no content and they had to pay for it.
That’s also not even touching on the fact that a lot of players probably would leave if they had to pay each month.

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Posted by: A OK.8276

A OK.8276

I would walk away and never look back

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in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Iason Evan.3806

Iason Evan.3806

I thought the cash shop was supposed to subsidize content creation? So far it has, but most of it’s bee temporary. Remember the Marionette? Battle for LA? The tower event in Kessex? Aetherblade attacks?

I think a better solution would be going back to their roots. New permanent content. Dungeons. Fractals. Open world events that are permanent. Evolving quest chains. Redesigns of Temple events that reward successful defenses. There are so many more options.

Sure, we have gotten content over the years but a ton of it has been temporary or is instanced and drops no loot. Where’s the incentive to replay season 2 instances? There isn’t any. It took a ton of man hours to make that content and it offers little to zero incentive to be repeated. It makes mistakes in its designs that GW1 thrived on and their solution with the x-pac is to hide content I want to complete(battling boss Mordrem)behind a mastery gate meaning I have to do content I may not want to do to earn mastery points in order to do the content I want to complete because said content can’t even be attempted without a certain “Mastery Rating”?

No thanks

Leader of The Guernsey Milking Coalition [MiLk] Sanctum of Rall