HoT Price Feedback + Base game included [merged]
in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns
Posted by: phys.7689
The hard copies of HoT will hit the shelves “when it’s ready”. So it can’t qualify as DLC either.
If it wasn’t an expansion, then it would be something completely different that doesn’t include any material from the core game (like Factions or Nightfall from GW1). In this case, it does.
Nightfall and Factions had material from the core game. The mechanics and old classes with new skins.
HoT is getting much more closer to that category. Being a standalone that exands the universe of the core game. However since it expands it by a very small margin, it can’t be a standalone.
However, with the core game no longer shipping on its own, HoT is not an expansion.
So what is it then?! How about the finished core game, which was 3 more years in the making after hitting the shelves?! So maybe just stop thinking of them in terms of GW2 and HoT?! Fuse them a lil’ and, to prevent “HoT” from becoming irrelevant once the Kralkatorik hunt starts, just call it “Guild Wars 2: As it Should’ve Been from the Start”?
well its basically the GW2 collected edition, but there is no option to get anything else.
You know, I spent a lot of money during Guild Wars heyday buying multiple accounts because there was no option to purchase additional character slots. The option to purchase additional character slots was not added until 15 months after release. The only way to add character slots to your ‘main’ account was to purchase another campaign and ‘give up’ some of the slots allocated with said campaign and add the two remaining slots to your ‘main’ account.
We are fortunate we no longer have to do that; we can even obtain additional character slots by merely exchanging in-game Gold for Gems!
gold to gems is not some magic, you are basically selling your service to players for below minimum wage,
unless you make like 120 gold an hour, some people do, but most do not.
Hypothetically the stores would have to give it away for free and try and claim their losses from Anet or NCsoft.
nah, i dont think companies honor those. I remember champion online boxes sold for like 5-10 dollars after it went free to play, it did come with a free month of premium though.
for 5 to 10 dollars you still get a lot of game, its only a problem if its not super cheap.
That is very true. so it can still be purchased from a third party, someone should probably inform them that is is now apparently free.
That aside, combining it with HoT does make it a stand alone core game. That is what a stand alone is, you no longer need to go out and purchase what was once the core game. You just need to buy HoT.
interesting, i guess the stores will have to start pricing the original at like 5-10 bucks, if it costs like 40, people will instantly return them to retailers as soon as they find out they can get it free with HOT.
either that or anet will have to make all new players, even if they get the box, into HOT owners.
Hot is for level 80 characters you do no require a new character slot to enjoy hot. If you think the price is to much then don’t buy it now.
Wait till its out and ls season 3 comes out and/or you see more reviews that peak your interest.
You are not required to pre-purchase. How is this hard to understand. If you don’t like what you have seen or feel its not worth it don’t buy it.
yeah thats what people are doing, and since this forum is still available to people who only have the core copy, expect to hear their opinions on that descion as much as they want to talk about it.
Actually, isn’t it more like a revision?
Like with Street Fighter 4, Super Street Fighter 4, Ultra, Arcade Edition, etc.
New users and old users pay the same price for the full package, and the only advantage long time players have is personal experience and getting to keep the DLC costumes, earned unlocks, and such they already bought on the old versions.
Actually, yeah, it’s EXACTLY like Street Fighter 4,
Except the revisions were released at much lower price points than the original games at release, each one was in the $20-$30 range…
He, another one with my Street Fighter compareson.
ANet going the Capcom way, so yeah it is not a new thing they are doing here.Though it is like every Street Fighter since 2.
The good thing about them, though, was the simple fact that you could still sell your old copy of the game.
Upgraded to Super Street Fighter 4 Ulimate Arcade Mega Edition, you got still your Super Street Fighter 4 Ultimate Arcade Edition, or just plain old Street Fighter 4 to give around to your friends or sell it. If the devs were smart, you could even play with them, as the new stuff could have been patched in or could have been plain DLC.However this is the new modern digital age.
GW2 = GW2HoT
Their thinking is smart, even though it is devalueing the expansion with it.
It is all about new players and everything is directed at new players, who don`t know better, or are easy pickings.The Core Game and Expansion should have been a seperate bundle. Right now it is taking the place of the core game, making it basicaly GW2 3.0.
So while in marketing speech it could be called a big expansion, as it is not sold seperately and from a developement perspective just a big feature pack it just ends up being (with the fact that the core game doesn`t exist anymore) GW2 after three years. Please pay for it.
I don`t want to be harsh. I know their reasoning. However it still doesn`t makes it right. It leaves a big sour taste in my mouth.
even capcom switched, the last pc version of SFIV you could upgrade to ULTRA for like 15 bucks
http://www.amazon.com/Ultra-Street-Fighter-IV-Digital/dp/B00JAK0P7Y
capcom did what they did at a time when you couldnt update a game easily, and distribute it easily, and you spent a large sum on marketing packaging and producing hard copies.
now that the market is different, they are getting with the times.
what it comes down to for anet, if the expansion alone is really supposed to be 50 dollars, with no bonuses, or extras it has to compare to whatever it is people expect from a 50 dollar MMO game
And to show it they purchased gems, thousands and thousands of them, Millions of dollars worth. To the people who say that those who supported ANet are acting Entitled by expecting some love returned to them for their continued support… well screw you too.
People who bought gems got what they paid for, the gems and anything they were able to trade those gems for. I did not buy a thousand dollars worth of gems to show devotion or anything of the sort. I bought them to use.
Believing that you are somehow owed more than you paid for is kind of one of the definitions of entitlement.
you arent owed anything for buying gems, but nor was anet giving you anything for free either. They created the business plan to make money, and it made money. Just like a store isnt opened for your benefit, it is created to make money by being a place for you to buy products.
basically GW2 was like a lifetime admission to a theme park. But they still charge you for the drinks, the gift shop, and the games. Fair enough, turns out they make a ton of money that way.
they then added an annex to the park. they want pretty close to the same price for a new life time admission pass.
what it comes down to is, is it worth it?
at the current price, with what we currently know about whats going to be in the annex, and the extras offered with the new pass, a lot of people are saying, uhhh not really.
and thats not entitlement, thats just making a descion on whether to buy an item based on what you know about it.
now for people who never bought the initial lifetime pass, its a pretty great deal. For others, well the analogy is pretty apt, so you can decide for yourself.
If it wasn’t an expansion, then it would be something completely different that doesn’t include any material from the core game (like Factions or Nightfall from GW1). In this case, it does.
no, including material from another game is not what makes something an expansion. In fact an expansion DOESNT include material from another game. It builds on the other game.
here are other examples of non expanison
phantasy star online and phantasy star online ver 2.
required the purchase of a whole new game, even though it was mostly an upgrade. you could import charachters, and play with ver 1 people. In their defense, this came out on consoles, before mass downloads and what not.
for another example
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_Fighter_IV
see the different versions, they required you to buy a new game, in their defense, each one was cheaper than the initial one.
fact is, HoT is not an expansion, because HoT is now the main version. There is no ability to just buy part of it (which would make it an expansion, and a game update) They are basically requiring a new purchase for the game, and the price aligns with that.
if they did seperate it, it would actually be an expansion, just a very expensive expansion.
So seperating it isnt the main issue, but yeah its no longer an expansion as things are.
Define expansion:
the action of becoming larger or more extensive.
Guild halls (with tons of features), new maps, events, rewards, new WvW, Gliders, LS Season.
Expansion Confirmed.
Either way the original game is being expanded, much larger, more features.
it cant be called an expansion if you have to buy a new complete product.
the fact that they are no longer selling GW2 core alone, and the only way to get HoT has core as part of the product means that Hot is a complete product, and seperate product, not an expansion.
HoT Price Feedback + Base game included [merged]
in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns
Posted by: phys.7689
If you buy GW2 now, it comes with HoT.
If you already have the game, you are losing out if you just go with an upgrade.
If you get it as a separate account, you get 4 character slots + HoT.
If you get it as an upgrade, you get HoT, nothing else.Just a week ago, GW2 was $40.
Everyone who just purchased GW2 for $40 will now have to buy it AGAIN for $50.
Anyone who’s just now showing up will have to pay the $50 for GW+HoT, that’s fine.So veterans and intermediates alike got massively ripped off as they are having to pay the equivalent of $90 to get the full package.
This is punishing early adopters and recent buyers of the game, a friend of mine has been trying to get money set aside for weeks to buy GW2 and he finally gets it, and then this happens… If he had known, he would have just waited a few weeks and paid the extra $10 for all of the content.
The base game is a bonus. Would you still be this upset had it not been included and the expansion was still $50 nonetheless like the had planned for it to be?
not really the base game is no longer on sale in the store.
And i think most people would still be saying it costs too much.
essentially people automatically take it for granted that its worth 50 because the base game is included, because they innately cannot believe that the expansion itself is worth 50.
yes, as others have said, its not really an expansion. Its new game. people who own the old game can play with people who have the new game.
they are not actively selling the old version any more. go ahead, go to the store and try to by the base game, it doesnt exist
(edited by phys.7689)
I for one agree with this. A meaningful difference is welcome.
Ascended is easy to get, by my standards anyway. I’ve seen a lot of low AP (2-3k) players in full ascended too.To the people saying 10% is too much – just let me remind you that just eating food or optimizing your rotation can close that gap.
no, it cant, because the guy with food, and the optimized rotation will be further from you again.
is it too much? i dunno, thats subjective, but is it a signifigant increase now between exotic and ascended? yes it is.
most especially since more of your stats come from gear now.
HoT Price Feedback + Base game included [merged]
in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns
Posted by: phys.7689
You guys should compare WoW expansion reveal to HoT, or even ff14 heavensward. Most of MMORPG are vague about their expansion too, there are no weekly live stream about the content neither weekly detailed blog post. Just check wow MoP reveal page, all they did are listed features and a very short portion of the reveal video and that’s pretty much it. How much more do you guys want? Anet won’t tell you every detail neither but that’s the same with every game expansion ever. People are having ridiculous expectations and it bothers me.
14 has revealed all extra charachters, it has revealed new job actions for new classes, a full new plotline. The Developer has said there will be as much content added as was with the original game. They have reavealed new raids, and they told us how many new zones they are adding. AND A RELEASE DATE all before adding a prepurchase option
It also costs 40 dollars versus 50, or a 25% difference in price, and you need nothing extra/delete no charachters to play all of the new jobs.
gw2 hasnt told us 5/9th of the new specializations
how many new zones we are getting
what is challenging content
no release date.
Well, you have to be careful when accusing people of entitlement.
There IS a lot of sentiment that $50 for an expansion is simply too much money. That’s not entitlement, that’s simply not seeing the value in what they’re being asked to pony up for. You might not agree, but it’s not entitlement.
Entitlement is effectively, “I deserve [x] because I did [y].” Entitlement is fans demanding a free character slot because that’s how it was done in the past. Entitlement is demanding 800 or 1600 gems because they’re veteran players and “deserve” it. The latter complaints can (and should) be dismissed without merit.
what you said makes no sense.
if its logical to think 50 for this expansion is too much money
its also logical to think that if it had other things of value it would be worth that money.
50,000 dollars for a car might be too much money
50,000 dollars for a car that can drive itself and flies may be just fine.
what it boils down to is people deciding whats the value and the going rate on the item.
i will tell you that based on other expansions, 50 dollars with no means to play a new new class without an additional purchase is not matching up well with peoples expectations for expansion prices.
I’m going to wait till I know more.
When I prebought Guild Wars 2, I was able to base my expectations on the picture below as well as information given. Where is the picture of the maps of the HoT so I can at least have some idea of the size of it?
yes, you can wait and see.
But for veteran players, we are all lv80, what is the point of getting lv1-79 maps?
And what is the point of getting 20+ lv80 maps if mapping is the only purpose?
Entertainment is what we are looking for in a game, i rather only couple of maps that still give me fun even replay for several months than 20+ maps that only entertain me for a week or so.
uh why not get 20 maps that give you fun replay for several months. especially since the main difference for you is whether its a level 80 map or not.
The self-entitlement is unreal. All the content they’ve given people over the past 3 years and asking for kitten price for a expansion is COMPLETELY reasonable. Whoever said its not worth the money its ridiculous and get off your high horse. People pay more for a WoW expansion+sub (recurring sub mind you), FFXIV expansion+ sub (recurring sub mind you) and this GAME isn’t even sub. Everyones acting like complete children who can’t dish out $50 dollars for a expansion for a unsub game that is the BEST out there. These people make content for your enjoyment without being greedy for 3 years, now this. In 3 years you would have spent $540 dollars in WoW or FFXIV + w/e their expansions cost. Give me a break.
considering the sub cost in this comparison makes no sense. You pay a sub for access to the game. Paying that sub in FFXIV means that i dont have to buy charchtet slots, have full access to gears, convience items, past stories i missed etc.
Sub is payed whether you get expansion or not.
the question is how much MORE do you pay than whatever you normally pay to play the expansion content.
in the case of gw2, your pay 50 dollars + 10 dollars for a charchter slot
in case of ffxiv you pay 40 dollars
thats a base difference of 25% more cost without a slot, and 50% more cost with a slot. Thats not really a small mark up.
Um…. here’s how I look at it… If I compare it to going to the theater. I’m paying $15 for 1 1/2 to 2 hours of entertainment. So, say I see 3 movies, that’s $45, almost the $50 mark for HoT… will I play GW2 for more than 4 1/2 to 6 hours… yes, yes I will.
which is fine, but how many people look at it is this.
anet is charging 17 dollars for their movie, current info on the movie implies it may only be an hour long, and people who regularly go to this movie dont get seats, unless they pay an extra 2 dollars.
how do i figure?
most big name expansions cost around 40 dollars, not 50. you can go see one right now releasing very soon at that price point. (it costs more than other expansions)
its currently unknown how large it will be, but right now it seems on the small side
and regular customers dont get a charachter slot
If they had done this like another game that is coming out right now, there would be substantially less complaining.
40 dollars for expansion
60 dollars for the collected edition which includes the expansion
this other game allows you to change your job anytime so charachter slots isnt really an issue.
short version, its not the cost in terms of hours of entertainment, its the cost and what you get for that cost compared to the rest of the industry right now.
the 100 dollar version is actually a fine deal, if you buy gems.
i see most the people who are happy with it bought the 100 dollar one. i see a lot fewer happy with the base purchase.
Essentially the base expansion upgrade isnt a good enough deal for many people.
I’ve got to get this off my chest.
-How can some of you look people in the eye and claim Arenanet is not giving you a whole lot of content(HoT specifically) when you haven’t played or experienced everything(and I mean EVERYTHING) that is this expansion offers, hmm? Do any of you have access to some leaked version of the full expansion or w/e? Enough with assumptions and back seat game development. You don’t work for Anet.
-The base expansion is $50. Ok, cool. Historically, most MMO expansions have been about $40-60. So how is this a problem? It’s because people keep equating whatever “value” the game has with games that aren’t even in the same genre: ie every game that doesn’t require an internet connection. They just don’t say it(probably because they dot understand the meaning of their words). Those games(usually) don’t ask for this level of pricing because they don’t have to continue developing content for it. People can continue to play those games well after the publisher and devs have moved on to other projects. MMOs(and MOBAs) don’t get this luxury.
-Yet naive individuals here will procrastinate on the “value” of the prices. There is no “value”. That’s a subjective emotion you make up for yourself to justify your purchase. And there’s nothing wrong with that. However, it holds not one kitten ounce of meaning as far as the quality of the expansion goes. We have reviews/reviewers for that.The price of reason is steep.
/rant
At least we can still all agree that the real only valid argument here is that the standard edition does not come with a free character slot. As it should, at the minimum for people who bought the game very recently.
the arguement that we dont know whats in it, so we shouldnt judge if its worth 50 dollars…
cuts the other way, because, perhaps, we should know whats in it before we decide if 50 dollars is a worthy price?
they should have released at least the overview before they started selling
1)release date
2)number of new zones
3)what are all the elite specializations
4)what is challenging new contentYes, there is no point in arguing its worth $50 or not unless we’ve seen all the contents. If anybody thinks the current released information doesn’t not worth it, then wait and see until the information convincing enough.
It is not fair to Anet without seeing the whole picture yet.
it is fair to anet, because anet chose to ask people for money before releasing that info.
Some people will be optimisitic, and some pessimistic, but if they had the major info it wouldnt be an unknown factor, and people could make their decsions based on real information.
truth is the marketing hasnt been handled that greatly.
On the plus side, people can just wait to purchase it when they have enough info. But anet opened themselves to this type of backlash by asking for money before telling people the basics.
All I see are a lot of entitled kids.
Anyway, I am indeed a satisfied customer and buying the expansion once the shop actually lets me do so.
not buying something you dont find worth it isnt really entitlement, its being a smart consumer.
the price isnt crazy, but it isnt that good either, and theres a ton of info they have yet to release
like… release date?
ill wait for more info myself, i guess i am entitled, i feel im entitled to information before i make a purchase.
HoT Price Feedback + Base game included [merged]
in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns
Posted by: phys.7689
If you don’t think you have enough information to make a decision about whether or not to pre-purchase the expansion, don’t pre-purchase the expansion. ANet probably aren’t planning to send ninjas to your house if you wait a month or two.
Most MMO connoisseurs consider FFXIV to have far more content than GW2, even though it’s far smaller on paper. Numbers and quantities don’t count for much, because again, it’s the quality that matters, and that’s not something you can judge from “five maps and a new class” or whatever.
ffxiv has a smaller open world, but a fairly expansive amount of instanced content. but yeah, im waiting to see whats actually in the expansion, and when its coming out before i buy it.
I’ve got to get this off my chest.
-How can some of you look people in the eye and claim Arenanet is not giving you a whole lot of content(HoT specifically) when you haven’t played or experienced everything(and I mean EVERYTHING) that is this expansion offers, hmm? Do any of you have access to some leaked version of the full expansion or w/e? Enough with assumptions and back seat game development. You don’t work for Anet.
-The base expansion is $50. Ok, cool. Historically, most MMO expansions have been about $40-60. So how is this a problem? It’s because people keep equating whatever “value” the game has with games that aren’t even in the same genre: ie every game that doesn’t require an internet connection. They just don’t say it(probably because they dot understand the meaning of their words). Those games(usually) don’t ask for this level of pricing because they don’t have to continue developing content for it. People can continue to play those games well after the publisher and devs have moved on to other projects. MMOs(and MOBAs) don’t get this luxury.
-Yet naive individuals here will procrastinate on the “value” of the prices. There is no “value”. That’s a subjective emotion you make up for yourself to justify your purchase. And there’s nothing wrong with that. However, it holds not one kitten ounce of meaning as far as the quality of the expansion goes. We have reviews/reviewers for that.The price of reason is steep.
/rant
At least we can still all agree that the real only valid argument here is that the standard edition does not come with a free character slot. As it should, at the minimum for people who bought the game very recently.
the arguement that we dont know whats in it, so we shouldnt judge if its worth 50 dollars…
cuts the other way, because, perhaps, we should know whats in it before we decide if 50 dollars is a worthy price?
they should have released at least the overview before they started selling
1)release date
2)number of new zones
3)what are all the elite specializations
4)what is challenging new content
HoT Price Feedback + Base game included [merged]
in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns
Posted by: phys.7689
Think then about ppl who bought the game 2 weeks ago for example, what about them? They need to pay again for core game if they want HoT. What Anet is doing is just wrong and unfair.
Let’s talk about free MMORPG that gives alot of content and events, what about that? You paid 50$ for the game, they need to give us alot of content and event, simple. Not selling a 20$ expansion at a 50$ price.The thing is, we don’t know it’s a $20 expac. We don’t know it’s kitten expac. We just don’t know.
All i was saying early is that they have my trust. They price it at $50 then I will pay it. It’s their product and I value it.
I didn’t play GW1 but lots in my guild did and as far as i can tell they have never really failed with an expac before.
the price isnt crazy, but it should probably come with a charachter slot, or cost less.
As far as the, we dont know if its small.
We kind of have a hint, but thats the other problem.
they havent released most the info, and they havent even released a date.
what are the elite specs?
how many zones are there?
what is the challenging content?
release date? release window?
too little information to sell this right now far as i see it.
Soooo…does this mean that if those of us who do not have ascended armor and weapons should not buy the expansion because our Exotics are not good enough for HoT????
What happened to Colin saying that our present armor will be fine as frog’s hair?
:Sigh:
it wont be useless, it just will be relatively weaker than it used to be.
Its a 10% difference after the bonus 30% is added. Its still only a 10% difference.
its a 10% difference when 30% more of your stats are based on gear.
take a look
lets say 2000 power comes from exotics now, 300 comes from traits and 1000 (simplified)
the difference in total power for an ascended user is
3300 versus 3400 power.
now, lets take away the standardized 300 and toss in the the 30% from gear
2666+1000 compared to 2932+1000 or 3666 compated to 3932.
basically trait points reduced the effect of gear, now more stats are based on your gear, so that 10% is more important than it used to be.
and it used to only be 5%
that will be extremely signifigant.
Pls… Pls
Pls Anet, don´t nerf the Consume Condition on the Necros so much, My propposition, keep the Volnurability (I don´t understand the thought prosess behind that tho, get condi to remove condi ?? but fine) but dont increase the cd, pls keep it at 25s
Should be fast and easy to implement
Corruption talent gives it a shorter CD than it currently has live.
Does that help?
along with an additional condition.
This is hardly the first game where players took extra steps to avoid trash mobs in dungeons. They’re called trash for a reason, and it happens that in Guild Wars 2 they’re even more trash than normal, since they usually drop nothing. Personally, I don’t feel like wasting time killing things that drop nothing. If ya’ll want to, that’s fine, just make your own group. Advertise that you don’t plan on skipping fights and you’ll still get a group. It really is that simple.
except for some of the infinitely respawning types, they dont drop nothing. Or do you mean nothing good?
nothing drops anything good, trash or not.
It wouldnt be fair if it was 50% but it still wouldnt matter because there is no gear requirements. Crying for the sake of crying with no real arguement wont make your point heard.
Doesn’t matter? WvW says hello.
Well thankfully its only a 10% difference!
10% difference when 30% more of your stats come from armor is extremely signifigant.
It wouldnt be fair if it was 50% but it still wouldnt matter because there is no gear requirements. Crying for the sake of crying with no real arguement wont make your point heard.
you realize 5% is considered a huge buff?
you also realize its 5% more when 30% more stats are on armor.
so lets say before you got
1000 power on exotic 1050 power on ascended
translates into
1333 power on exotic and 1466 power on ascended
thats a difference of 1.6 might stacks and 4.4 might stacks.
would you say there will be virtually no difference for a team that has 4 more might stacks up at all times?
what about a team who gets 10% more damage from crits at all time?
yes it matters, a whole lot actually.
So, the question is, will the forum defenders of Ascended gear continue to tell us the gap between Exotic and Ascended is too minor to matter?
Apparently ArenaNet didn’t like the idea that a huge portion of their player base could shrug off the grind to get Ascended by dismissing the minor stat boost.
Come on. Come on. You know you want this tasty carrot…..
It still shouldnt matter for the casual player. There are no gear requirements to complete content (apart from agony resist in fractals) and there are no DPS checks that require any significant investment.
The stat difference is larger. But its still pretty small.
new more difficult content is supposed to be coming, and it looks like there will be more unavoidable damage in the game.
so yeah, while the best of the best may not need the best gear, most players will think its required when they get beaten.
and yes it will reduce your chance of getting beaten.
Added source for credibility. Those 70 HPs are earned through levelling, starting at level 11. Oh, and this is just an incomplete test case (world not 100%). I don’t remember how many skill challenges are in the world.
I’d hold off on on making assumptions based off those “patch notes” until Anet makes an official statement. For all we know those could be fake.
Edit:
Will I guess more evidence in the direction that they’re real.
the notes hes speaking of doesnt change that hes still fairly off.
ok famster ill make it simple for you,
http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgABqAKoA6g~pick any build
tell me what skills/traits you want to use.i will tell you roughly how many hero points you will need to unlock it. I guarantee it will always be lower than 400
I would like to be able to switch to any build. After all, they specifically took away the respec guy and the fee for changing my build so that I’d have the freedom to do so.
How many hero points will I need for my current ability to use any skill and trait I see fit?
460ish
The traits are all more worthy of taking now, they have made every choice valid and have cut the pointless rubbish. You have more valid choices now just less pointless choices. Its a better move for diversity not worse.
This not entirely true. You have less choices and flexibility now. Less pointless choices, which you can’t avoid while being lock into a line, just because you want to get a specific useful trait in that line. I wouldn’t call it better move for diversity. It’s a better move to dumb down the traits, less complicated for the simple minded. Just like when they dumb down leveling, NPE. Not only this, the nerf bats that come with this new system is enormous, just to poor salt into the wound.
Old example, say you’re a Necro from a few years back and you want to take Dhuumfire you then are forced to take the 2 “least worst” options in Adept and Master – now because of the combining of traits and several useful choices at each level you now can get better options. Thats before I even mention Mesmers getting IP as baseline (a MASSIVE freedom), all classes getting 1/2 their bottom line effect and more.
The removal of redundant traits and the enpowering of all choices gives you more choice. Yes it makes it harder to make a bad choice but is that really “flexibility?”
you dont have to get rid of choices in order to make some choices better, thats a fallacy.
yes, they cut choices, and improved some choices at the same time, but they didnt have to.
they could just have had more choices which were better choices.its like someone saying the only way you can have good food is if their are less types of food. simply not true, you can have choices AND high quality at the same time. Which gives you the ultimate amount of diversity and quality.
Actually, if you watch some of those shows where they fix-up failing restaurants (Restaurant Nightmares, Restaurant Impossible, etc), one of the most common things they do is remove the under-performing items from the menu, because having too many options a.) overwhelms customers and makes them take more time make a selection and b.) complicates the operations of the kitchen by having to maintain rotating stocks of several different ingredients that often go to waste.
Having a ton of choices doesn’t matter if, to be viable, you have to disregard most of them (like not ordering the obviously kittenty items from a menu). It’s not true choice—it’s the illusion of choice.
bull
more options doesnt hurt consumers.
it does however help restauranters. that i agree with.
this whole idea of getting rid of bad options is a lie, very rarely are options bad, they are generally subjective. There is nothing objectively inferior or superior about curry goat, hamburgers a salad, jerked chicken or spagetti.
a streamlined store may only sell hamburgers, that doesnt mean hamburgers are the best food.
The traits are all more worthy of taking now, they have made every choice valid and have cut the pointless rubbish. You have more valid choices now just less pointless choices. Its a better move for diversity not worse.
This not entirely true. You have less choices and flexibility now. Less pointless choices, which you can’t avoid while being lock into a line, just because you want to get a specific useful trait in that line. I wouldn’t call it better move for diversity. It’s a better move to dumb down the traits, less complicated for the simple minded. Just like when they dumb down leveling, NPE. Not only this, the nerf bats that come with this new system is enormous, just to poor salt into the wound.
Old example, say you’re a Necro from a few years back and you want to take Dhuumfire you then are forced to take the 2 “least worst” options in Adept and Master – now because of the combining of traits and several useful choices at each level you now can get better options. Thats before I even mention Mesmers getting IP as baseline (a MASSIVE freedom), all classes getting 1/2 their bottom line effect and more.
The removal of redundant traits and the enpowering of all choices gives you more choice. Yes it makes it harder to make a bad choice but is that really “flexibility?”
you dont have to get rid of choices in order to make some choices better, thats a fallacy.
yes, they cut choices, and improved some choices at the same time, but they didnt have to.
they could just have had more choices which were better choices.its like someone saying the only way you can have good food is if their are less types of food. simply not true, you can have choices AND high quality at the same time. Which gives you the ultimate amount of diversity and quality.
I think in this case it’s more like they wanted to prevent certain combinations, and also get rid of some of the choices that were never taken.
If nobody likes your pineapple zucchini sandwich and nothing else on your menu has zucchini in it, you take it off the menu so that you stop having to order zucchini. It might be reducing your choices, but there’s no real point in keeping objectively bad choices around or making too many of them (why do you think most restaurants only have a couple of pages of food?). One of the problems with GW1 that I think they’re trying to avoid is that there were significant numbers of skills that just weren’t used, period.
On top of all this, it makes the game easier to balance by making sure you don’t have to balance every trait with every single other trait, so that they can manage the traitlines more individually without worrying about unintended combinations that end up being too strong.
its mostly done so its easier for them to create/balance new specialisations.
its not true that they just eliminated bad combinations/traits, they streamlined the design.
until we start to have 2+ elite specializations, there will be substantially less variation.
stream lined screwdriver
http://images.clipartpanda.com/screwdriver-clipart-free-vector-bigredsmile-a-screwdriver-clip-art_115848_Bigredsmile_A_Screwdriver_clip_art_hight.png
more option screwdriver
http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/300/a2/a2164953-aa2c-439b-b36e-8fe8b0284a92_300.jpg
the second one is a better tool, the first one is more streamlined. streamlined doesnt mean better
The traits are all more worthy of taking now, they have made every choice valid and have cut the pointless rubbish. You have more valid choices now just less pointless choices. Its a better move for diversity not worse.
This not entirely true. You have less choices and flexibility now. Less pointless choices, which you can’t avoid while being lock into a line, just because you want to get a specific useful trait in that line. I wouldn’t call it better move for diversity. It’s a better move to dumb down the traits, less complicated for the simple minded. Just like when they dumb down leveling, NPE. Not only this, the nerf bats that come with this new system is enormous, just to poor salt into the wound.
Old example, say you’re a Necro from a few years back and you want to take Dhuumfire you then are forced to take the 2 “least worst” options in Adept and Master – now because of the combining of traits and several useful choices at each level you now can get better options. Thats before I even mention Mesmers getting IP as baseline (a MASSIVE freedom), all classes getting 1/2 their bottom line effect and more.
The removal of redundant traits and the enpowering of all choices gives you more choice. Yes it makes it harder to make a bad choice but is that really “flexibility?”
you dont have to get rid of choices in order to make some choices better, thats a fallacy.
yes, they cut choices, and improved some choices at the same time, but they didnt have to.
they could just have had more choices which were better choices.
its like someone saying the only way you can have good food is if their are less types of food. simply not true, you can have choices AND high quality at the same time. Which gives you the ultimate amount of diversity and quality.
changes coming next week, we ll see if they have any type of grandfathering planned.
Grandfathering makes absolutely no sense in the new system. It’s just an impossible thing to do, unless the game retroactively gives you completed hero challenges for hero challenges that you haven’t done yet, which seems rather unlikely.
there are methods which achieve an approximation of grandfathering.
but they would require dev time of course.
changes coming next week, we ll see if they have any type of grandfathering planned.
my current necro build is :
6,2,2,2,2. Using 5,7,13, then 6,5,6,2.
Knights set, condi foods, earth runes, combination of trinkets, sig of corrupt.
How many points will I need to replicate the build?
Guess what? It’s ‘sub optimal’ according to the meta, but guess what? When I use it it’s remarkably effective in wvw as well as very survivable.
How close can I get in the new points system, especially given the loss of the trait line points into gears, etc etc?
Gear is FAR from irrelevant, given that they seem to be taking the points out of the trait lines and putting it in to gear. In fact, gear will be more important to achieve the balance of stats that is my preferred play style.
But maybe we should just be forced into spvp style with one trinket and one type of armor, or just go that one step further and just have everyone only able to select from gw2 guru approved builds?
im not saying gear serves no purpose, im saying it has little to do with trait/skill aquisistion.
you cant do 5 specialization traitline builds anymore. Some traits got merged and juggled.
also as far as i can see many of the traits you liked no longer exist.
spite V retaliation when enetering death shroud, kind of changed, now it does two things
spite VII marks deal more damage, dont see it anymore.
spite XIII far as i can see it doesnt exist anymore
curses VI is baseline now, wells are ground targeted no matter what
death magic V got merged in to soul reapinghttp://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgQBqAXkBLg~
this is probably closest to what you had
you would use 160 points in specializations to unlock the build i just linked.
what skills do you use.
assuming you unlock every skill it will probably be about 320 hero points.So my build is dead and I’ll have to restrict myself to some pigeonholed build instead.
So can i make that build with the 400 I got for being 80 or do you mean I have to find 160 points (which sounds rather more than 65).
Probably use the elite line, which will be more points again?
I’m not looking forward to the incoming restrictions – most games expand build choice as they develop, GW2 is ground breaking in the sense with every update they restrict it- first the NPE (No Players Ever) and now restricting builds to three badly constructed lines.
nah, you ll have more than enough.
looks like marks dmg is baseline now, so you just lost one, unless i just cant find it.
specs have a lot less variety now, but you generally get more power. I dont love that aspect really, but what can you do, to be honest builds are changing a lot for everyone, its kind of different system.
nowadays games actually seem to do this often. Especially games with more options. i dont think its great but everyone is aiming for simplicity these days
my current necro build is :
6,2,2,2,2. Using 5,7,13, then 6,5,6,2.
Knights set, condi foods, earth runes, combination of trinkets, sig of corrupt.
How many points will I need to replicate the build?
Guess what? It’s ‘sub optimal’ according to the meta, but guess what? When I use it it’s remarkably effective in wvw as well as very survivable.
How close can I get in the new points system, especially given the loss of the trait line points into gears, etc etc?
Gear is FAR from irrelevant, given that they seem to be taking the points out of the trait lines and putting it in to gear. In fact, gear will be more important to achieve the balance of stats that is my preferred play style.
But maybe we should just be forced into spvp style with one trinket and one type of armor, or just go that one step further and just have everyone only able to select from gw2 guru approved builds?
im not saying gear serves no purpose, im saying it has little to do with trait/skill aquisistion.
you cant do 5 specialization traitline builds anymore. Some traits got merged and juggled.
also as far as i can see many of the traits you liked no longer exist.
spite V retaliation when enetering death shroud, kind of changed, now it does two things
spite VII marks deal more damage, dont see it anymore.
spite XIII far as i can see it doesnt exist anymore
curses VI is baseline now, wells are ground targeted no matter what
death magic V got merged in to soul reaping
http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgQBqAXkBLg~
this is probably closest to what you had
you would use 160 points in specializations to unlock the build i just linked.
what skills do you use.
assuming you unlock every skill it will probably be about 320 hero points.
So you saying, people in WvW should be happy with the change, because we only play 1 build anyway?
ok….
no, 400 points unlocks most builds.
go ahead give me multiple builds on a job and i will tell you how many points you need.
You haven’t really played gw2 beyond living story haven’t you? It doesn’t matter if specialization is only up to 6 traits because there might be a skill that I must get that is locked beyond other skills. Also if you played speedrunning I frequently change my skills and traits for different purposes. Also even in WvW, some people do frequently change their build regardless of it being 6 6 6 . What 6 6 6 means is that now instead of changing a trait or two, the entire trait lines will be emptied and reinvested in another line for the sake of optimal running.
Also keep in mind that I am one of those players who likes to do everything, from jumping puzzles to wvw to pve to pvp. Which means I do need to unlock most if not all traits/skills to experiment and adapt to everchanging meta. Let me ask you this. Have you ever had any experience in organized group settings, whether that be pvp, pve, or wvw? I assume you never had such experience because you lack the in-depth understanding of complex GW2 combat in all areas, hence you do not realize why having different traits and skills are necessary even when you deem that they are not much of use.
Different gamemodes utilize different modes, and the current trait system in fact forced me to choose one game mode per character due to its massive gold and skill point. Some people do play for efficiency, and not care about having to do skill challenge at all. In fact there will be a guide coming up that would focus on completing the most efficient skill/hero challenge when the patch lands. Maybe its time for you to actually explore how and why certain skills and traits are used in different situations instead of tunnel visioning into only 3 trait lines.
Also your post completely ignores the trait change on flight. You may not have encountered much use for that, but guess what! There are people who actually use those to change traits before/after combats in pve and wvw! Gasp! And guess those people don’t exist to you? Oh and there are people who play both pve and wvw on the same character! And those builds use different traits and gears! I guess that was a news falsh to you
If you play PVE then the whole beef about having to leave WvW to get progress is irrelevant. If you frequently use your charchter in PVE, then getting a few skill points is not really a big deal.
I never said other builds are worthless, i said you can have many optimal builds, most of the meta builds with minimal points.
you realize that right now, you have skills locked behind other skills, a teir 3 utility right now means you have to spend 26 points to get up to it. the third elite needs 50 points.
and you dont have to get every skill.
you have 400 points.
if you dont use 1 of the elites, you save 15 points.
if you dont use the 2nd or 3rd grandmaster in a specialization line, you save 5-10 points
if you dont use a specialization line at all, you save 60 points
if you dont use a family of traps, you save 20 points
if you dont use the last physical skill, you save 5 points.
if you need every single thing, because you play so many different game modes, and so many different types of content, from running cross map, farming linen, dungeon running, etc Then skill challenges is content that fits in with those types of things.
and ill say it again
400 points is enough for MULTIPLE BUILDS,
go ahead give me some real builds you will use, and i will tell you approximately how many points you will need to unlock them all.
there are many combinations of builds that can be achieved with 400 points. gear is irrelevant to this discussion btw.
(edited by phys.7689)
So you saying, people in WvW should be happy with the change, because we only play 1 build anyway?
ok….
no, 400 points unlocks most builds.
go ahead give me multiple builds on a job and i will tell you how many points you need.
ok famster ill make it simple for you,
http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgABqAKoA6g~
pick any build
tell me what skills/traits you want to use.
i will tell you roughly how many hero points you will need to unlock it. I guarantee it will always be lower than 400
My point is that GW2 is possibly the only MMORPG that allowed people to branch out into different types of gameplay and still have the option to jump into other types of gameplay. For instance, Arena net did a fantastic job allowing players to jump into pvp without having to worry about gears/traits/skils. But wvw and pve have always been affected by each other, and their gears and traits overlap, while the gametypes offer totally different things.
The original skill/trait system, which is the reason why I started GW2, didn’t force me to play other types of gamemode to build my character. I could reach level 80 by whatever means necessary, pay few golds to unlock my traits, collect skill points to unlock some of my skills, and then enjoy playing. I had fun creating alts because I didn’t have to devote hours and hours just to unlock some traits or skill points by completing unnecessary challenges or cause me to grind for gold and skill points to enjoy my current alts.
The current system we have now levelgates and timegates us from enjoying our alts. Map completion for 1 trait that I will never use? Fine, but now I have to do the same map completion on different characters for hours and hours to unlock that trait. If I want to unlock my traits in a different way, well I better have 43 golds and 380 skill points! This really bars me from enjoying different types of gameplay other than pvp because now I have to pay a lot more than before to have the same experience I once had. Instead of gear grind, now we have trait grind.
This new upcoming change will be devastating for all of us who will now have to worry about logging on to each individual alts to explore the same places multiple times.
you really havent been listening have you?
you will be able to unlock any build, and all skills with the amount of points you get just for leveling to 80.
optimal builds do not use all skills/traits at one time.
NO BUILD WILL EVER USE MORE THAN 3 SPECIALIZATIONS ANY MORE.
this means that you can unlock whatever top end build you want with hero points to spare, before you ever leave WvW.
in fact you will be able to unlock multiple top end builds, most people will have no need to do a single skill point, and keep in mind WvW has like 15-20 right now
you dont have to unlock every skill to get what you want in the new system.
you choose what skill types to unlock, and you choose which specializations to unlock.
you do it one at a time.
you are getting overly caught up in your expectations, and not the reality of the changes.
just for being level 80, you will earn 400 hero points.
you can choose which skill types or which specializations you want to unlock.
there are about 21-25 utilities and 3 elites to unlock
this basically means 130-165 of your hero points if you decide to fully unlock all skills.
you dont like venoms? dont unlock them at all, congrats you saved 25-35 points, dont need the last two venoms? you save 10 points.
even with full skill unlock you will have 270-235 points left.
each specialization line is 60 points, you choose which ones you want to level, and how far down you want to go into them.
so basically you can unlock 4/5 specializations if you do the skill points in WvW.
seeing as how no build can use more than 3 specializations at a time now, that essentially means you will have unlocked, with zero grinding more builds than you could ever have done before. If you did all the WvW skill challenges you will have 416 hero points.
im sorry but the sky is not falling, you wont have to play pve at all to have optimal WvW builds. You WILL be able to get some skills, and ignore others. You will be able to get some traits and ignore others. And you will have more builds with less grinding than ever before.
and you dont have to explore the same places.
you only need 50 non WvW points, or less depending how many the new wvw maps have.
since there is currently like 189 skill points there is many different combinations that can lead you to the 65 you need.
in HOT there will be more skill challenges, so there will be even less repeats if thats what you desire.
(edited by phys.7689)
Dont make a MMO that uses a limited action bar, if you dont want us to have many options to customizing the small action bar…
Anet is following bad design logic inhouse.
i dont understand what you are trying to say here.
If you are a veteran player and have access to: Celebration Booster, XP Booster, and Killstreak booster (plus food of course) then killing yellow mobs in a rotation is the absolute fastest way to level. (Not including crafting) Also make sure you use your level 20 scroll to skip the first 20 levels.
There are diminishing returns on the bonus XP so you want to find a nice big spawn of Moas or any other yellow critter, kill them, then move on to the next one. Don’t just sit at one spawn, eventually there will be no bonus XP. You need to constantly be moving, but I’ve leveled 3-4 times/hr with this method depending on spawns, which surpasses EoTM.
People have gotten upwards to 8 levels an hour with boosters in EotM but that depends on no downtime from wiping. The average without boosters is around 5 levels which puts it about on par with the method you listed. It’s definitely an alternative if someone doesn’t like mindless zerging.
One thing to add though is that along with boosters, you also need to know where the least killed mobs are and how to kill them on a map efficiently to maintain a high XP/hr rate before hopping to the next map. Unfortunately, nobody has created maps to my knowledge showing the routes other than one for dredgehaunt. Definitely an opportunity for someone to create them for other players if they wish.
last i checked boosters have little to no effect on event xp, which is the bulk of exp in eotm. You kill like 4 monsters every 5 minutes? i cant imagine they would effect much unless you were fighting players, which isnt that common, and requires you to survive.
Wow, was that done with Crayons? looks like someone’s kid did it. I hope anet isn’t paying people for this kind of “concept art”.
I can’t shake the feeling that it’s not only paid for, but also intentionally bad. That, for some unfathomable reason, this kind of style appeals to someone in Anet. Perhaps they are deluded in thinking it is something that can replace Kekai Kotaki’s work.
i think they were going for more for daniel dociu, heck maybe it was his work, but just not a very good attempt.
we all have off days.
That concept art and many more were already shown at PAX. http://imgur.com/a/tzJzD#KvEPRBf
funnily, that was the worst one they could have chosen for guild halls far as i see.
I have 4 alts at lvl 50 or so, with less than 10 skill challenges done, with only the minimum traits unlocked to make them work, but with all the skills unlocked.
Easy question:
When the patch comes live…1- Will I have to re-earn the skills I have already unlocked?
Please answer yes or no.2- Will I get any compensation for the gold I invested to get the traits?
Please answer yes or no.3- Will I receive any compensation for the time I invested earning the skill points I used to unlock all the skills?
Please answer yes or no.1. You’ll have to unlock all skills and traits again, but you’ll start with 400 hero points (at lv80) plus any HP for each skill challenge, out of the ~465 you need to unlock everything for your profession.
2. I don’t think so.
3. Skill challenges will still count, and other skill points will be transformed into spirit shards, so yes.
Again. LvL 50. All skills unlocked. Re-earning. Recovering gold/time. Yes or No.
probably not, depends on if they backload hero points.
assuming they dont, you will likely have enough points for all skills and more traits by level 50
I have 4 alts at lvl 50 or so, with less than 10 skill challenges done, with only the minimum traits unlocked to make them work, but with all the skills unlocked.
Easy question:
When the patch comes live…1- Will I have to re-earn the skills I have already unlocked?
Please answer yes or no.2- Will I get any compensation for the gold I invested to get the traits?
Please answer yes or no.3- Will I receive any compensation for the time I invested earning the skill points I used to unlock all the skills?
Please answer yes or no.1 – yes
2- no
3- no
4- have fun grinding for hero point
you are actually wrong.
if he gets even 160 points for being level 50, he will be able to unlock all skills.
pretty much the only type of player coming out behind would be someone who unlocked ALL TRAITS.
even a person who was grandfathered in, and didnt do the 3/5 new trait unlocks would spend less gold/skill points to reach full unlock.
(edited by phys.7689)