Guild Wars 2

Genesis.8572:

The issue, phys, is that in many other games, particularly in tabletop RPGs, there are mechanical benefits for being an “____-hunter” that gives you a competitive edge when facing your particular foe of choice. A “dragon hunter” in any other RPG would give you bonuses for tracking your foe, recalling lore about them, as well as combat bonuses.

Even a treasure hunter will more often then not have more mechanical edges that benefit their ability to perform that task, whether it’s bypassing traps and locks, traversing ruins, or locating the treasure’s whereabouts.

yeah, i know some games work that way, but GW doesnt, no class has any simulated stat benefits. Elementalists dont get a bonus to magic dmg, or elemental damage, there is no elemental wheel whereby fire does more dmg to X.

warrior is not statistically better with martial weapons.

i mean, you could honestly have the same beef with warrior, why does my mesmer do as much dmg with sword as the warrior? thief vs warrior? guardian does as much dmg as warrior with GS.

This game just doesnt give stat advantages, it changes the techniques, and ways in which classes use weapons.

they couldnt just call the class hunter. So they added the modifier, most likely based, in this case on why they became hunters.

McNinja.5417:

phys.7689:

The dragon part of the name just tells you what they hunt/why

So does every single player. That is literally the point of the entire game for every player without exception.

Hunting Dragons is not special, and a hunter class/profession is already fully covered by the Ranger. That is my problem with the name, and indeed everyone who hates the stupid name has the same issue.

If the Dragonhunter spec shot dragon claws or teeth as projectiles, blew dragonfire, and has skills that has dragon-like animations, that would be better and more relevant to the name, but at the same time, how is that relevant to the Guardian profession?

It isn’t. That’s the issue. No fake story you make up about how they’re somehow better at hunting dragons than my warrior or necromacer will change how absurd the name is and how little the name has to do with the base profession.

I already said, that they are not better at killing/fighting dragons than anybody else. It is a descriptive term
they are hunters(actual hunters, not just people who kill something).

dragons/minion/corruption is just a description of what they hunt.
like bounty hunters, hunt bounties, they are not the only people who seek to catch bounties, and they are not the best at it.
treasure hunters, hunt treasure, they are not the only people who want treasures, and they are not the best at it.

They are also not supposed to be your standard guardian, they are a special case of guardian that is focusing the very basic nature of what a guardian has at his disposal, towards a specific, and different end. This is so different from what the average guardian does, that they had to give it a new name.

that basic nature of guardians, is the ability to wield light magic, which is generally tied to protection/wards/healing/smiting. They then take those basics, and figured out how to apply it to hunting (traps, tracking, controlling the area)

anyhow there is a thread for arguing about the name, if thats your only beef. This one is supposed to be more about actual feedback on the specialization

spoj.9672:

Well the sustain of lifeblast with lifesteal is almost non existant. A slight increase in proc rate improves potentially it quite a lot depending on the rate increase. Simply because you can get much more health back before you run out of lifeforce. Its by no means a big gap closer. Its very slight. But thats fine.

Im also fine with leaving it as it is. I still think I would prefer faster weaker Life blasts for other reasons unrelated to lifesteal though.

keep in mind lifeblast necro is supposed to need less sustain, because its supposed to be using its distance better. Base necro uses chill/cripple etc to stay at mid range, (which avoids a lot of dmg) where reaper has to be close.

Basically im saying reaper is supposed to have more sustain than necro, although, i dont know if thats going to be the case.

spoj.9672:

Saying Reaper is Necro/warrior is a bit naive. There are 3 classes with shouts and a greatsword. Warrior, guardian and ranger. Could just as easily be considered Necro/guard.

Its generally the theme as well as the other things. guardian doesnt really line up that well since it is very anti boon sharing, and not really focused on team mitigation.

mesmer shield was a rare case they said, where the weapon was the last part of the class. None of the weapons they could get from necro would really have made them feel more necro like, axe, dagger, warhorn are very loosely necro like in their use.

wells, and the mechanic that allows you to go back to a previous state/step out of your current situation for a limited time, is the necro like part of chrono.

Black Box.9312:

phys.7689:

Genesis.8572:

Nike.2631:

Unsurprisingly since I want to play an Archer/Trapper WITHOUT A BRAINDEAD PET leeching 30% of my DPS and a set of f1-f3 actions that don’t lag out for bad AI, I’m pretty excited.

So basically you are excited that you can play the guardian as if it were the ranger you wanted? Do you not see how that is bad for both guardians and rangers?

you realize the basic plan for this set of specializations seems to be subclasses, right? most classes will not get something that is similar to how the old class plays, thats the opposite of the point.
reaper is just as far from necromancer, if not farther than dragon hunter is from guardian.
just like you can say DH is a wanna be ranger, they can say reaper is a wanna be warrior. These specs are all supposed to be different, but use existing weapons/skill types, they will all be similar in some respects to something else. They are basically sub proffesions. when they get to specializations with new weapons, perhaps you will see something that is more new, till then, expect these specializations to take something from a class, but use it in a style/playstyle that fits the theme of the class.

No. No. No. Specializations should give us ways to play classes that are unavailable on any other class. That’s the point; to bring new elements to the game to give it a breath of fresh air.

Going with the subclass route is 100% not the answer. It’d have been one thing if they had a subclass mechanic at launch like they did with GW1, but it’s too late for that now. People that want to play a trap ranger should play a trap ranger. There’s no reason to turn guardians into trap rangers when instead we could give guardians an entirely unique new playstyle that isn’t anything we already have in the game.

they may do that for future specs, but this round isnt really focused on that.

So what type of new playstyle would you like to see for guardian?

Recluce.3709:

I am not including Revenant as one of the classes to be a “secondary profession” on purpose. It is a special type of character and I don’t see it getting this specialization/secondary prof treatment now if ever.

they did say it will have an elite specialization, with an extra weapon.

penelopehannibal.8947:

I seriously hope thieves don’t get rifle because if they did they’d have more ranged weapon skills than melee

what would you want them to get?

anyhow, its fairly likely it was a theif in the promo video with a rifle. It could theoretically be an engineer, but they dressed it in a style that is more thief like than engineerish

+ though they have ranged its all short range.

Recluce.3709:

Apologies if this topic is a repeat, the search function sucks. So I saw this kinda done in another part of the forum but wanted to lay it out nicely here and see what you all thought.

The “Specializations” are really just a secondary profession, similar to what we had in GW1. So assuming that each main class will have another main as part of their specialization, and further assuming there will be no repetition of classes, here is my list of confirmed and speculated classes with corresponding secondary professions:

1. Ranger/Ele (uses staff in trailer)
2. Mesmer/Necro (has wells)
3. Guardian/Ranger (long bow and traps)
4. Necro/Warrior (shouts and great sword)
5. Engineer/Guardian (we saw use of a hammer and guard hammer skill #2 in the trailer)
6. Ele/Thief or Mesmer (both use sword, my guess is Mes, E/Me was popular in GW)
7. Thief/Engi (warrior already used, process of elimination on other classes with rifle)
8. Warrior/Thief or Mesmer (My guess is Thief and that they will get dagger)

Thoughts?

known
1.mes/nec
2.guardian/rng
3.nec/war

4.rng could be /mes /ele /rev /guardian, based on the staff.
5.engi could be /grd /rev based on hammer
6.ele could be /mes /grd /thf /rev (based on sword)
7.thief /eng
8.war ?
9.rev ?

overall, i think your ideas are right, but there is a bit more room due to rev

Oulov.7913:

I have a question about that spec. Reaper’s Shroud looks cooler than the Death Shroud and I would like to play with Reaper’s Shroud, but I don’t want to wield a greatsword. Is it possible to put 1 point into the first minor trait (Shroud Knight) just to have an option to go into Reaper’s Shroud but still play with old weapons (e.g. axe)?

there is no one points at all any more.
you can pick 3 specializations.

you dont have to use a greatsword or the shouts, but you will get the whole line, or no line.
thats the way all lines work now.

ArchieD.6972:

When the five powers combine…

Think about it, Elementalists have Earth, Fire, Wind, and Water. With so much focus on the F skills (as seen with the three specializations they’ve released thus far), it only makes sense that the 5th F skill will be…

HEART!

It’s even in the title of the expansions, Heart of Thorns! And to put further emphasis on the F skills, what if we’re now able to combine different elements to provide different affects with our skills? Add Earth to Fire and now you’re throwing hot coal all over people. Add Water to Wind and you can increase the damage of your lightning attacks by electrocuting everyone standing in the pool of water. And Heart… well, Heart weakens the souls of the enemies, gets them at the core of who they are. It makes them more susceptible to being damaged. Add it to Earth, and Bleeds last longer. Fire is stronger, Water chills and provides more healing.

I know it may seem far fetched, but think about if for a bit, we have strong Mesmer NPCs, Warriors, Rangers, Necros, pretty much everything except for an Ele. So who might be this new Master Ele who can combine all 5 elements at once??

I’m sure you can guess.

id rather they just turn into captain planet myself

AikunFelcis.7258:

phys.7689:

AikunFelcis.7258:

phys.7689:

Basically, if your feedback is Guardian should never become a hunter type, there is no point to that, its settled. If you can think of new playstyles that guardian should have,

feel free to reccomend them for the sake of future specializations

if you think DH is a poor execution of a guardian version of hunter, say why, what would you change, what is it missing to achieve that goal? That theoretically may be usefull.

You don’t have to explain me mechanics and I don’t hate mechanic, that wasn’t my point. As I wrote. The specialization doesn’t feel like “dragonhunter”. Whatever story you will write around it, it won’t erase the fact that it sounds wrong. Will we play a specialization or will we “roleplay” specialization? Do we have to create a very special story for our precious characters to pretend that name has sense? I have no issues with mechanics. The gameplay itsels is ok, but it doesn’t give me impression this is “Dragonhunter”. Holy Archer pretending to have something to do with Paragon. I would be satisfied with different name that actually fits. As I wrote, Chronomancer and Reaper fit. Dragonhunter doesn’t.

What in your opinion would make it more hunter-like, why does it fail at being a hunter

I think you still don’t understand my issue with the name. Hunter role is already taken by Ranger. This spec is like dual class character Guardian/Ranger, so the core difference here is that this specialization is using arrows and traps imbued with light, so this spec actually is “Divine/Holy Archer/Hunter”. Nothing to do with dragons in this spec, nothing implying that these skills are crafted against dragons and their minions. Chronomancers skills are tied to time manipulation and this is what is this specialization is all about. Time manipulator, time mage. What is special in dragonhunter that is more effective against dragons and dragon minions than other professions and specializations? Which skills and mechanic is so special and superior against the dragon minions so the name “DRAGON Hunter” is justified? Because the name itself implies that there is something special, something extraordinary that makes Dragonhunter better at dealing with dragons and their minions than other professions/specs. Is Ranger worse at “hunting the dragons” and their minions then? If warrior got shortbow or torch with additional burning and burning traps, would name “Dragonburner” be appropriate? Why would this spec be better at burning dragon minions than other professions/spec which can burn their enemies to death as well?

this isnt so much a thread about the name(there is another thread for that), but more about the concept.

The dragon part of the name just tells you what they hunt/why, Just like a bounty hunter just tells you they hunt bounties, There is no innate ability a bounty hunter has that makes them better at killing/capturing people with bounties than police officers, fbi agents, or the military, thats simply a description of what they hunt.

Do you have any problems with the concept? that of a guardian type of hunter? Or is it only the name that bothers you?

AikunFelcis.7258:

phys.7689:

Basically, if your feedback is Guardian should never become a hunter type, there is no point to that, its settled. If you can think of new playstyles that guardian should have,

feel free to reccomend them for the sake of future specializations

if you think DH is a poor execution of a guardian version of hunter, say why, what would you change, what is it missing to achieve that goal? That theoretically may be usefull.

You don’t have to explain me mechanics and I don’t hate mechanic, that wasn’t my point. As I wrote. The specialization doesn’t feel like “dragonhunter”. Whatever story you will write around it, it won’t erase the fact that it sounds wrong. Will we play a specialization or will we “roleplay” specialization? Do we have to create a very special story for our precious characters to pretend that name has sense? I have no issues with mechanics. The gameplay itsels is ok, but it doesn’t give me impression this is “Dragonhunter”. Holy Archer pretending to have something to do with Paragon. I would be satisfied with different name that actually fits. As I wrote, Chronomancer and Reaper fit. Dragonhunter doesn’t.

What in your opinion would make it more hunter-like, why does it fail at being a hunter

Basically, if your feedback is Guardian should never become a hunter type, there is no point to that, its settled. If you can think of new playstyles that guardian should have,

feel free to reccomend them for the sake of future specializations

if you think DH is a poor execution of a guardian version of hunter, say why, what would you change, what is it missing to achieve that goal? That theoretically may be usefull.

AikunFelcis.7258:

phys.7689:

McNinja.5417:

Mar.4839:

Remember, Dragonhunters are basically Witchhunters, everything makes a lot more sense if people stop being so literal with the name which is where most of the issue is coming from.

Why on earth would be NOT be literal with the name? Dragon Hunting has all of nothing to do with the themes, ideas, or profession of Guardians. It’s a bland name that doesn’t have anything to do with… anything! It’s a name better suited for someone from Destiny’s Edge or a member of the Pact since they’ve… you know, hunted actual dragons? It’s not unique because every. single. player. has hunted dragons.

If Dragonhunters are so similar to Witchhunters, why not just call them witchhunters?

because witches dont exist in tyria, most people use magic and there is nothing sinister about it.
The evil in the world of tyria is dragon related, it has been for the last 250 years.

The guardians who use protection/smiting/warding based light magic to seek, trap, and harry dragon based evil/corruption are called dragon hunters, much like demonhunters or witchhunters.

Your story/description would be good if the specialization were actually designed or “crafted” to be Dragonhunter. For now it’s not. Mechanic (new virtues) are just pure Paragon. Traps are big symbols with cool animations. Longbow skills are 3 pewpew arrow skills , 1 symbol and 1 trap-like symbol restricting movement of the enemies. Everything light-imbued. Seeing the gameplay I arrived at conclusion: this is Holy Archer archetype with Paragon-like virtues. I don’t see Dragonhunter here at all. One elite skill with dragon’s maw animation and that’s it.

The problem is that Chronomancer and the Reaper are self-explanatory. I saw gameplay of Chronomancer and I was fine with it, Chronomancer = time mage. Gameplay and mechanics fit the name – time manipulation by alacrity, slow & quickness and continuum split/shift. Reaper – fits. Spec looking like Grim Reaper with Scythe, melee combat focused, death theme and enemies are literally chilled in fear. Everything fits perfectly and sounds natural.

In this case skills are like for Holy Archer archetype + Paragon-like virtues = Dragonhunter? No way. This is overinterpretation. This isn’t self-exoplanatory at all! It seems that most people including respected youtubers by ArenaNet had “WTF?” reaction for this name. This specialization doesn’t feel like “dragonhunter” for me and other people. Why people don’t complain and don’t write hundred of posts about names Chronomancer and the Reaper? Why that names didn’t bring controversy? Becasue that names fit to the theme of that specializations. In case of Dragonhunter, the name doesn’t fit.

traps are fundamentally different than symbols.
enemies cant see traps
traps persist until you place a new one
traps have longer cast times and arming times
DH traps provide control, support and DPS bursts when triggered.

The DH is style is about preparation, tactics and strategy.
you control your position, and your allies position and time your attack and support to reach maximum benefit.

thats very hunter like.

and once again, my point isnt discussing the name and saying its a cool name. Im just saying DH is a guardian who uses his abilities to hunt. Specifically he hunts the corruption that is in tyria right now. People expecting something that was like a standard guardian are missing the point of specializations.
its supposed to be a different playstyle/within the theme and style of an existing profession.
the playstyle they wanted for this guardian specialization was a hunter type. So this guy is a hunter the way guardian would be a hunter. Thats the entire point of this spec. Of course if you hate hunters, then you will hate the spec, thats why the core spec exists.

just the same way that if you hate Melee/martial types, you will not like reaper, who essentially plays like a hack and slash necromancer.

The more you like the current playstyles of a proffesion, the less need you will have for the current specializations, because they are designed to play very differently.

Arrk.4102:

phys.7689:

McNinja.5417:

Mar.4839:

Remember, Dragonhunters are basically Witchhunters, everything makes a lot more sense if people stop being so literal with the name which is where most of the issue is coming from.

Why on earth would be NOT be literal with the name? Dragon Hunting has all of nothing to do with the themes, ideas, or profession of Guardians. It’s a bland name that doesn’t have anything to do with… anything! It’s a name better suited for someone from Destiny’s Edge or a member of the Pact since they’ve… you know, hunted actual dragons? It’s not unique because every. single. player. has hunted dragons.

If Dragonhunters are so similar to Witchhunters, why not just call them witchhunters?

because witches dont exist in tyria, most people use magic and there is nothing sinister about it.
The evil in the world of tyria is dragon related, it has been for the last 250 years.

The guardians who use protection/smiting/warding based light magic to seek, trap, and harry dragon based evil/corruption are called dragon hunters, much like demonhunters or witchhunters.

Well my Elementalist uses fire/water/earth/air magic to seek, trap and harry dragon based evil/corruption, why is he not called Dragonhunter then?

because your elementalist did not invent the style it uses for that purpose. Elementalists have been using fire/earth/water/air magic pretty much the same way for the entire history since humans got magic.
Elementalist are also not really hunter like in how they fight, they dont trap things, they blow them up/obliterate them.

The DH is setting traps, setting up profitable positions, it is based on preparation and tactics.
Elementalist is more of a killer than a hunter.

It is the difference between artemis (who tracks and hunts) theme and Zeus ( who murders things with a lightning bolt)

and just to make it clear, i dont say this within the context of the name. You are perfectly free to hate the name in the other thread. My point here is that the reason DH use bows and traps, is because it is a person who uses their guardian abilities to hunt (actually hunt, not just kill) dragon corruption.

In the case of dragon hunter, it is a description, not of the fact they fight dragons/corruption, but rather the way in which they do it.

McNinja.5417:

Mar.4839:

Remember, Dragonhunters are basically Witchhunters, everything makes a lot more sense if people stop being so literal with the name which is where most of the issue is coming from.

Why on earth would be NOT be literal with the name? Dragon Hunting has all of nothing to do with the themes, ideas, or profession of Guardians. It’s a bland name that doesn’t have anything to do with… anything! It’s a name better suited for someone from Destiny’s Edge or a member of the Pact since they’ve… you know, hunted actual dragons? It’s not unique because every. single. player. has hunted dragons.

If Dragonhunters are so similar to Witchhunters, why not just call them witchhunters?

because witches dont exist in tyria, most people use magic and there is nothing sinister about it.
The evil in the world of tyria is dragon related, it has been for the last 250 years.

The guardians who use protection/smiting/warding based light magic to seek, trap, and harry dragon based evil/corruption are called dragon hunters, much like demonhunters or witchhunters.

Genesis.8572:

Nike.2631:

Unsurprisingly since I want to play an Archer/Trapper WITHOUT A BRAINDEAD PET leeching 30% of my DPS and a set of f1-f3 actions that don’t lag out for bad AI, I’m pretty excited.

So basically you are excited that you can play the guardian as if it were the ranger you wanted? Do you not see how that is bad for both guardians and rangers?

you realize the basic plan for this set of specializations seems to be subclasses, right? most classes will not get something that is similar to how the old class plays, thats the opposite of the point.
reaper is just as far from necromancer, if not farther than dragon hunter is from guardian.
just like you can say DH is a wanna be ranger, they can say reaper is a wanna be warrior. These specs are all supposed to be different, but use existing weapons/skill types, they will all be similar in some respects to something else. They are basically sub proffesions. when they get to specializations with new weapons, perhaps you will see something that is more new, till then, expect these specializations to take something from a class, but use it in a style/playstyle that fits the theme of the class.

Fashion Mage.3712:

It’s not supposed to be a power upgrade, but it’s still a ranger wannabe. Unsurprisingly, if I wanted to play a ranger, then I’d play a ranger.

it doesnt play like ranger.
ranger is a beast master first and foremost
it specializes in constant fast attacks.
its traps are currently designed more for fields/dot/condition
its fairly evasive
is designed to apply a general consistent pressure

DH:
durable
slower more powerful attacks
its traps are designed to control/burst/support
focuses on control.
provides party support/defenses
it controls the battlefield

now, sure you may not want to play that type of class, but its playstyle is fairly different than ranger. And just because you have no interest in it doesnt mean it shouldnt exist.

Black Box.9312:

phys.7689:

because you spec for the other weapons in the existing lines. Few trailines benefit more than one weapon type.
And traps are not weak for back and forth combat with ranged attacks, if the payoff is right.
take a look at these traps
1 second casting time for fragments of fate, 1.4k dps compared with .760 dps if you were AAing instead. bonus, 5 aegis in the field to use when you wish.
same damage on the cross the line trap, making it worthwhile to cast
better damage than true shot per second on the blade skill.

its actually worth it to teleport right into the enemy, control/cripple them, and make them suffer the penalty with the traps, you are gaining DPS if you do it properly.
Guardian can afford to be in melee for the short times to place these traps.

How you place them and what skills you use with them maximizes your effectiveness.
the warding trap can keep your enemies away, or keep them trapped in an area, your bow 5 can also lock them in place so they have to feel the full force of the traps.

its a playstyle where you have to put together your control, timing, and positioning to get the maximum benefit, which is honestly a really good execution of this style.
the traps are strategy/tactics.

i think im going to have to rename dragon hunter “the cerebral assassin”

That doesn’t change the fact that the DH has absolutely no synergy with our base traitlines. Why would I want to take extra damage to crippled enemies and extra damage from more than 600 range if neither of those are applicable to anything else in my loadout? Instead I could trait Zeal, and gain +10% damage to burning foes (which is a condition we actually have universal access to), and Radiance, and improve my burning uptime dramatically so that I’ll have a consistent damage multiplier that doesn’t punish me for using my skills and weapons to their best potential. These elite specs are supposed to enhance the class, and instead of getting an enhancement we’re getting a wannabe ranger that limits you for using anything outside of the elite spec.

they are not meant to enhance the class, they are meant to be an alternate playstyle for the class. no specialization is suppose to enhance the class.

you pick 3 specializations based on how you want to play the class, for many playstyles, the elite specialization IS not the best, its not supposed to be.

just like regular specilizations are not best for every loadout. Do i take shadow arts if i dont use stealth much on theif?
what good is weaken targets when you poison them if i have no poison on my loadout?

let me be clear
elite specializations are not power upgrades They are not good for every playstyle and build. this is not the case with any specialization.

DH has a ton of synergy with other specializations, not sure what you are basing that idea on.

Bezagron.7352:

For me these shouts are not just about the effects they cause but also the damage. If these are instant what counter play is there. I’m never a fan of instant effects but can understand why some would be include due to latency issues. But I would only place these on defensive skills only and only a small number at that & have all offensive skills with cast times. Now I’m not talk all large cast times but that there is one with a chance how ever small to interrupt.

Example: Even with a cast time of 1/8 second how many players which internet latencies can respond.

To add this counter play I would love all Shouts to get this small cast time. It add skilled play to shouts. They’re already a fire and forget so long as your in range, and being an instant cast skill you only have reactive options for counter play not pre-emptive. As such this limits how powerful Shouts can be, add a cast time and power level can be increased.

If one or two profession has such a large advantage due to cast times I would look at these professions. You want this this casting & interrupting game play as it makes for a more engaging & immersing fight but not to the extend were one side can cause total lockdowns or massive lost of character control.

Even with small cast times Shouts are still going to be one of the easier skill sets to use but if added one of the harder sets to interrupt.

the dmg is about equivalent to 1/3rd-1/2 your autoattack dmg. in that same time period you would have done 3-4 times that dmg via auto attack.

the dmg is only good for proc-ing on hit effects, nothing else, which might be cool, till you realize, you probably would have been better off with the passive effects from signets, or using wells than any of these shouts.

i dont see the power here, maybe im missing something, combination of the cast time, the recast times, and weak effects makes most of these shouts lackluster

Black Box.9312:

Mar.4839:

Arrk.4102:

Mar.4839:

Actually I believe the main issue is that people are viewing Specializations as something that is supposed to be as the OP states “logical extension of the flavor and theme of the Guardian.”

That’s the biggest mistake I think everyone is making.

Elite Specializations are designed to be horizontal progression, not vertical. We’re taking a piece of our main profession and specializing further into that aspect.

Chronomancers -> Mesmers who decided to focus more on the time aspect of their profession (which admittedly was pretty sparse to begin with).

Reapers -> Necromancers who decided to focus more on being as powerful as Death itself.

Dragonhunters -> Guardians who decided to focus more on zealous justice.

These are all just one piece of each profession that is being extended, the 2nd Elite specializations for these professions will then delve into another facet of the base profession.

A future elite spec for each could be:

Mesmer -> Some kind of mage-thief that focuses more on its stealth aspects.

Necromancer -> A Demonologist-ish kind of summoner with more focus on minions.

Guardian -> Cleric-ish boon giver/supporter with more focus on tomes.

OP is clearly one of the many that think Elite specs are supposted to be vertical progression but they aren’t. They’re just another choice to play the profession in a different way, a more focused (specialized) role.

We can even use the Druid as an example. It is not the total encompassing progression of what a Ranger is, it is just an extension of the Nature Magic part of the Ranger.

Yes but those focus their whole theme on one thing. Guardians by themselves have nothing to do with hunting, dragons or hunting dragons.
Mesmers have time magic thus Chronomancer.
Rangers have nature magic thus Druid.
Guardians have 0 relation to hunting or dragons which is why it makes no sense.

As phys has pointed out, the playstyle of the DH is to switch back and forth between melee and range, heck they even show this on the Ready-Up with the build from Tirzah.

It’s not supposed to be staying at range like a Ranger with a longbow, that’s the entire point of introducing a new playstyle but having a different flavor to it.

Reapers become melee fighters like Warriors/Guardians but the Reaper’s playstyle is different enough from both as well.

Guardians have zeal and/or can be zealous. Thus some focus on that and turn into Dragonhunters.

Remember, Dragonhunters are basically Witchhunters, everything makes a lot more sense if people stop being so literal with the name which is where most of the issue is coming from.

If we’re supposed to use this spec to alternate between ranged and melee combat, then why is the new spec focused exclusively on traits meant for the longbow? Why are we not getting more adequate gap closers/openers? Why are we getting traps, which are just about the worst utility type to be using while you’re on the move?

Also, people are being literal with the name because Anet planted that seed in their heads with the idea of the spec centered around being a “big game hunter”. Jon’s attempt at justification only ended up serving as more proof that they can’t maintain any sort of consistency with this spec.

because you spec for the other weapons in the existing lines. Few trailines benefit more than one weapon type.
And traps are not weak for back and forth combat with ranged attacks, if the payoff is right.
take a look at these traps
1 second casting time for fragments of fate, 1.4k dps compared with .760 dps if you were AAing instead. bonus, 5 aegis in the field to use when you wish.
same damage on the cross the line trap, making it worthwhile to cast
better damage than true shot per second on the blade skill.

its actually worth it to teleport right into the enemy, control/cripple them, and make them suffer the penalty with the traps, you are gaining DPS if you do it properly.
Guardian can afford to be in melee for the short times to place these traps.

How you place them and what skills you use with them maximizes your effectiveness.
the warding trap can keep your enemies away, or keep them trapped in an area, your bow 5 can also lock them in place so they have to feel the full force of the traps.

its a playstyle where you have to put together your control, timing, and positioning to get the maximum benefit, which is honestly a really good execution of this style.
the traps are strategy/tactics.

i think im going to have to rename dragon hunter “the cerebral assassin”

Fashion Mage.3712:

and where do they get the mobility to consistently switch between melee and range? A 60 second cooldown 600 range leap? According to the devs and the ready up, DH is “a big game hunter that specializes in ranged combat and back line support”.

Mar.4839:

Remember, Dragonhunters are basically Witchhunters, everything makes a lot more sense if people stop being so literal with the name which is where most of the issue is coming from.

I don’t recall any kind of witchhunters using traps in particular, nor do they hunt “big game”.

the witch hunter mythos often has them use traps and devices, because in those time periods science and trickery was the only way you would catch a magic witch

https://www.google.com/search?q=witch+hunter&rlz=1C1CHYD_enUS577US577&espv=2&biw=1304&bih=707&tbm=isch&imgil=2dsbgNiJ7E73nM%253A%253B17v2sbRJcmjmKM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Ffacepunch.com%25252Fshowthread.php%25253Ft%2525253D1463168&source=iu&pf=m&fir=2dsbgNiJ7E73nM%253A%252C17v2sbRJcmjmKM%252C_&usg=__rn4s37E8YIomxjv2LX7z7ZZP3kI%3D&ved=0CDgQyjc&ei=b45XVYWiKpKYyAS9oYCADQ#imgrc=_

you guys keep forgeting, you have a weapon swap. with gap closers, and mid range attacks. Many utilities also work from 600, you have a teleport utility. Stop thinking of the elite as upgrade to the base class, and realize it is SUPPOSED to play different, feel different, and interact different.

you basically are trying to be around 700-500 range normally, and go further or closer as the need arises.

i think they could change some stuff, faster leap recast, perhaps a better means of creating distance or combat swiftness.

cooler charachter animations would hurt, but eh its a bow, and new animations are a rarity

Darwec.3784:

Im actually pretty happy about the healing shout. I like the idea of damage dealing heals. I know a lot of people find the new healing shout and signet of vampirism bad, but Seeing as you can avoid most pve damage anyways, id rather take extra DPS when i do need an emergency heal

the dmg on these skills is negligable, the only purpose they really serve is to proc on crit/on hit traits.

spoj.9672:

Heres the coefficients i got. It was heart of the mists so i assumed exotic greatsword so weapon power of 1000.

Greatsword

Dusk Strike – 0.861
Fading Twilight – 0.861
Chilling Scythe – 1.013

Gravedigger – 2.027

Death Spiral – 0.912

Nightfall – 0.731

Reaper’s Grasp – 1.013

Reaper’s Shroud

Life Rend – 0.608
Life Slash – 0.608
Life Reap – 1.216

Death’s Charge – 1.013

Soul Spiral – 2.787

Executioner’s Scythe – 1.520, 2.027, 2.533

Other Stuff

Shouts – 0.345

Elite Shout – 1.379

Chilling Nova – 0.137

So yeah the greatsword coefficients arent amazing. Neither are the Reaper shroud ones to be honest. Also take into account that necro has less damage modifier traits than other classes. These probably arent high enough especially as they are quite slow.

Chilling Scythe should be atleast 1.2 coefficient. Guard greatsword has a better auto attack than this currently. Its also faster and gets more modifiers through traits.

they are still messing with the numbers, but they said they wanted it to hit at least as hard as warrior/guardian, so we can assume they are going to change it, If not, the whole concept will fail, as no one will fear their up close dmg, and the wind up.

Fashion Mage.3712:

phys.7689:

The theme of guardian is lightwielding supporter/smiter that theme is still intact.

lolno.

phys.7689:

i mean, it isnt a frontline player, but necro wasnt a fronline player before either.

It isn’t frontline or backline really. Speccing into dragonhunter heavily damages a guardian’s ability to support from the backline by changing their virtues. Their new virtues work better at close-range, and are generally much weaker supportively. Yet their longbow encourages them to stay at long-range (while providing virtually no support), and their traps can’t be ground-targeted (which, again, offer virtually no support) which encourages one to be closer to the action. So I don’t know what the spec is supposed to be or under which range it’s supposed to function, and the devs don’t seem to even know what role it’s supposed to be filling. Backline support? Please.

its looks like its supposed to go in and out of melee rng, as far as backline support, you got a long range light field with two 100% finishers for condi removal, light field itself
you got a lockdown area skill
you got projectile destruction+blind
long range vigor
targeted heal leap
that seems like some of the better support from long range

fragment of faith seems fairly useful to me (5 aegises)
blind heal trap

as for the range, think they are supposed to be going in, and out of melee combat, using their aegis/mitigation effects to place traps, remember there is a weapon swap for a reason, they arent like longbow rng who wants to be as far from you as possible, they are durable, they mostly use the rng so you cant escape, and to set up profitable lines of attack.

they arent most effecient at 1200 range, unless they have prepared the area with traps.

Black Box.9312:

phys.7689:

what traits dont carry over? you realize all the virtue traits still work on the new virtues right? The theme of guardian is lightwielding supporter/smiter that theme is still intact.

i mean, it isnt a frontline player, but necro wasnt a fronline player before either.

VoJ and VoC will no longer affect allies when activated, and VoR will have 1/5 the radius it has now, and at least two of those three will now have a cast time while the current iterations do not. So at best, you’ll be able to clear 3 conditions from allies within a 240 radius if you manage to leap to them (if you haven’t used it already as a gap closer/immobilize) before they move out of that radius. Do you know how big a 240 radius is? It’s the size of a traited symbol. Not really a great AoE size for an allied support skill.

So yes, in the few instances where existing traits DO carry over, it becomes even more of a problem because they end up conflicting with the new mechanics instead of working together with them. Terrific.

they said all traits will carry over, so it will likely just proc an pbaoe effect when you use it.

keep in mind this is not supposed to be straight up buff, its a different way of playing. A long ranged guardian would always have had the same problem you are talking about, only they would have less tools to deal with it.

KashimKudal.2961:

phys.7689:

KashimKudal.2961:

With all of the damage potential of the GS and KS (Knight Shroud) I feel that having revved up damage on the shouts also would make the Reaper too much of a power house. Most theory crafters and build makers have pin pointed a lot of insanely hardcore specs already (I know I’ve found at least 6 so far). High damage shouts would be adding something the Necro already has in wells with the same CD’s relatively speaking – Keeping in mind that all Necro wells are dark fields and with the subsequent Whirl Finishers you have equal lots of leeching bolts each healing around 170per (Robert did say that all Siphon effects would heal through KS maybe leeching will be considered a siphon effect?-Someone Confirm). So I understand the devs reasons for making them a true utility and not the source of damage themselves. Personally I like “Nothing Can Save You” and “Chilled to the Bone”. NCSU is an instant damage increase in any team or WvW skirmish fight ripping boons for conditions. This is amplified if you’re going focus offhand for even more boon stripping – Keeping in mind that Reaper’s Touch bounces x4 giving x4 of Vuln per hit on target and Regen to yourself if you’re close (Which you should be since you’re a Reaper) This alone sets you up for some big damage spikes. CTTB, offers a big shot of damage with soft and hard CC’s whilst giving resistance. For those looking for an instacast hay-maker this skill isn’t for you because of the 2s setup, but for those who’re able to accurately predict enemy movements and judge distances (I.E staying within a 2s cast time of the skill to connect) will have no problem using such a versatile skill. Don’t get me wrong though, Lich and Plague won’t lose their place but for Necros who truly master CTTB it will be devastating when used in the correct scenario( Plus you won’t be a huge Lich catching all the aggro!)

On a side note. I’m a human Necro and have always loved Reaper of Grenth although it saw no love from others apparently. With the new trait reworks in place chilling a foe will inflict x5 Vuln. In RoG this Elite hits x10 targets pulsing every 3s in a 240 radius over 15s. This elite can be activated before entering DS. There is also another trait that pulses Vuln every 3s while in DS. Essentially when you start you will definitely be throwing insane amounts of damage out. This is just with a few traits and ONE skill. I explain this because I thought of this in about 1 minute while watching the stream lol. If a Reaper can do this, why would we need high damage shouts? IMO – We wouldnt.

the shouts dont need insane dps, they need to be on par with other utilities that provide similar benefits.
most are not.

I do agree that some are not on par with others of similar effect, but when coupled with the sheer magnitude of now Mid and short range burst damage and CC support of a Necro – having all of them be on par would probably slide them more into an overpowered state IMO.

a utility that is similar but weaker is just a utility people dont use. what you say might make sense if you had to use shouts, but you dont.

If they arent good, people just dont take them, which makes them kind of a waste

Black Box.9312:

phys.7689:

Black Box.9312:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Black Box.9312:

It’s awful. The bow looks promising, but the traps are based on terrible mechanics and are just another source of area denial, which we absolutely did not need over mobile damage sources. The traitline has no synergy with any of our existing traits. What the hell is the point of giving us extra damage against crippled enemies when the only source of cripple we have is with the new bow? Why do we have a trait that increases our damage from > 600 range if the majority of our weapons are melee? And why do we have a trait that inflicts cripple on knockback if the only reliable way to proc it is from a different bow trait (or the use of the very underwhelming shield)?

The traits you listed are meant to enhance the elite spec itself, which is to be expected. I don’t see what’s wrong about that. Also, bow’s barrage can knockback on target’s movement. The shield being underwhelming is also not DH’s fault.

Isn’t the goal of the specialization to enhance the base class though? What’s the point of using anything not related to the spec if there’s no synergy? It just makes the entire class completely divisive; you can either be a Guardian or a DH, but don’t bother trying to be both because building for one side of the equation only removes opportunities from the other side. It’s stupid and it’s counterintuitive. With the Chronomancer, interrupt builds are going to be more powerful than ever. With the Reaper, Terrormancer is going to be crazy with damage inflicted with chill, which is guaranteed alongside the fear that already does crazy damage. With DH, there’s no reason to take it unless you plan on using the longbow. It doesn’t work with anything else.

And no, the shield’s status is not related to the new spec. But it serves to reinforce my point that a trait that procs on knockback is not very useful on a Guardian.

no they arent actually supposed to enhance the base class, they are to offer a different playstyle within the theme/ability set of the base class.

reaper is essentially, what if you had a more martial necromancer.
DH is a more long ranger/hunter type guardian
chronomancer is a more support focused mesmer

they will all likely provide fairly different playstyles, not upgrades to the class. The primary focus is expanding the way you play the game, not the powers/flaws of the class.

take for example engineer, no weapon swap means he is basically at his base a meleer, new utilities basically alter their f1-f5 skills into what will likely be very different style than they usually have.

think alternate mini class rather than buffed up main class

If it’s supposed to fit the theme and ability set of the current class, then why does the Dragonhunter feel like a 100% departure from what we have with the Guardian right now? None of the traits carry over between the two, and the “theme” is a complete 180 from what we’ve come to expect from the Guardian.

what traits dont carry over? you realize all the virtue traits still work on the new virtues right? The theme of guardian is lightwielding supporter/smiter that theme is still intact.

i mean, it isnt a frontline player, but necro wasnt a fronline player before either.

Black Box.9312:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Black Box.9312:

It’s awful. The bow looks promising, but the traps are based on terrible mechanics and are just another source of area denial, which we absolutely did not need over mobile damage sources. The traitline has no synergy with any of our existing traits. What the hell is the point of giving us extra damage against crippled enemies when the only source of cripple we have is with the new bow? Why do we have a trait that increases our damage from > 600 range if the majority of our weapons are melee? And why do we have a trait that inflicts cripple on knockback if the only reliable way to proc it is from a different bow trait (or the use of the very underwhelming shield)?

The traits you listed are meant to enhance the elite spec itself, which is to be expected. I don’t see what’s wrong about that. Also, bow’s barrage can knockback on target’s movement. The shield being underwhelming is also not DH’s fault.

Isn’t the goal of the specialization to enhance the base class though? What’s the point of using anything not related to the spec if there’s no synergy? It just makes the entire class completely divisive; you can either be a Guardian or a DH, but don’t bother trying to be both because building for one side of the equation only removes opportunities from the other side. It’s stupid and it’s counterintuitive. With the Chronomancer, interrupt builds are going to be more powerful than ever. With the Reaper, Terrormancer is going to be crazy with damage inflicted with chill, which is guaranteed alongside the fear that already does crazy damage. With DH, there’s no reason to take it unless you plan on using the longbow. It doesn’t work with anything else.

And no, the shield’s status is not related to the new spec. But it serves to reinforce my point that a trait that procs on knockback is not very useful on a Guardian.

no they arent actually supposed to enhance the base class, they are to offer a different playstyle within the theme/ability set of the base class.

reaper is essentially, what if you had a more martial necromancer.
DH is a more long ranger/hunter type guardian
chronomancer is a more support focused mesmer

they will all likely provide fairly different playstyles, not upgrades to the class. The primary focus is expanding the way you play the game, not the powers/flaws of the class.

take for example engineer, no weapon swap means he is basically at his base a meleer, new utilities basically alter their f1-f5 skills into what will likely be very different style than they usually have.

think alternate mini class rather than buffed up main class

GoogleBrandon.5073:

War Mourner.5168:

The problem with the elite is that the cast time is rediculous.

I mean seriously, look at moa morph. It’s an elite skill that leaves one person pretty helpless for however long it last.
It has a 1sec cast time that is very distinctive. It gets avoid a lot.

Ours is double the cast time, we literally shout loudly to let every know it’s happening.
Even if we don’t get CC’d or blinded, or the enemy uses an evade or block, it’s a cakewalk to dodge a skill with such a long wind up.

I say “why wouldnt I use lich?” Because Lich is extremely straight forward.
For the next 20s, you press 1, can kill everything that moves, unless you get moa’d or they have projectile reflect.

If you don’t have one of the above 2 things, you cant avoid the damage of lich (other then running away).
The shout elite is a single AOE that is extremely manageable. I’d honestly put it on par with people’s opinion of 100 blades pre-release.

You say this, but in all honesty – how many times does for instance a Warbanner get succesfully interrupted? Even in Solo-play, not even a third of the community has a clue how to deal with it – added with either the CC from Fear Me, or just a regular Stability, suddenly the person you spent so much time on getting downed is up and running

I get you, the cast time is long for it’s effect, and I would not say no to a decrease of it – but the effect is literally huge…
Mechanically, if you are somewhat capable of using the thinkerbox, shutting down a Lich is easy as cake… The play for it is so straightforward, it creates no oppertunity like Chilled to the Bone does. Will you be able to cast it if you randomly start charging it within a teamfight? Probably not, Warbanners get interrupted the same way – but with some minor coordination (stability is somewhat more accesible now), you can easily pull of something this huge

Sometimes you need to look at it from the perspective of Teamplay – and I tell you, this elite screams “Teamplay” way more than any other elite that the Necromancer profession currently has… Lich has to be played around with, Plague is potent, but makes you very much a sitting duck aside from plague ressing – and this one is an opener, an oppertunity for the whole team to strike down, which leads to interesting play rather than “Heal the Lich while he spams 1”

Again, Cooldown Reduction? Fine by me, but the elite, in my very humble opinion, is really interesting, and really underappreciated

i noticed in your other post you said 10 seconds, its a two second stun.

If you hit 5 targets you get immune to condi for 10 seconds.

so basically the big deal is condi immunity and chill

with 2 second cast time you are basically trading your lockdown for theirs
the dmg you do, you can do more in the same time frame.

the idea is ok, but the cast time makes it pretty hard to land, and the recast makes it a rarity.

KashimKudal.2961:

With all of the damage potential of the GS and KS (Knight Shroud) I feel that having revved up damage on the shouts also would make the Reaper too much of a power house. Most theory crafters and build makers have pin pointed a lot of insanely hardcore specs already (I know I’ve found at least 6 so far). High damage shouts would be adding something the Necro already has in wells with the same CD’s relatively speaking – Keeping in mind that all Necro wells are dark fields and with the subsequent Whirl Finishers you have equal lots of leeching bolts each healing around 170per (Robert did say that all Siphon effects would heal through KS maybe leeching will be considered a siphon effect?-Someone Confirm). So I understand the devs reasons for making them a true utility and not the source of damage themselves. Personally I like “Nothing Can Save You” and “Chilled to the Bone”. NCSU is an instant damage increase in any team or WvW skirmish fight ripping boons for conditions. This is amplified if you’re going focus offhand for even more boon stripping – Keeping in mind that Reaper’s Touch bounces x4 giving x4 of Vuln per hit on target and Regen to yourself if you’re close (Which you should be since you’re a Reaper) This alone sets you up for some big damage spikes. CTTB, offers a big shot of damage with soft and hard CC’s whilst giving resistance. For those looking for an instacast hay-maker this skill isn’t for you because of the 2s setup, but for those who’re able to accurately predict enemy movements and judge distances (I.E staying within a 2s cast time of the skill to connect) will have no problem using such a versatile skill. Don’t get me wrong though, Lich and Plague won’t lose their place but for Necros who truly master CTTB it will be devastating when used in the correct scenario( Plus you won’t be a huge Lich catching all the aggro!)

On a side note. I’m a human Necro and have always loved Reaper of Grenth although it saw no love from others apparently. With the new trait reworks in place chilling a foe will inflict x5 Vuln. In RoG this Elite hits x10 targets pulsing every 3s in a 240 radius over 15s. This elite can be activated before entering DS. There is also another trait that pulses Vuln every 3s while in DS. Essentially when you start you will definitely be throwing insane amounts of damage out. This is just with a few traits and ONE skill. I explain this because I thought of this in about 1 minute while watching the stream lol. If a Reaper can do this, why would we need high damage shouts? IMO – We wouldnt.

the shouts dont need insane dps, they need to be on par with other utilities that provide similar benefits.
most are not.

cletiscake.9173:

Anyone else feel the Dragonhunter is just plain lackluster when compared to the other Elite Specs shown so far? I was utterly blown away by how cool and awesome the Reaper is. The visuals, the flavor, the theme — It was all there. I have to say, the Reaper is an excellent execution of an Elite Spec.

Dragonhunter just seems “tame” to me. My only character is a Guardian, and I love everything about Guardians as a class. I expected to see an Elite Spec that would transform the Guardian into a Stalwart Defender, an elite Soldier of Dwayna, an Avatar of Light, you know, something that is a logical extension of the flavor and theme of the Guardian.

Instead, we become Dragonhunters? With a bow that lays traps? Remember the picture that was teased a couple of days before the Dragonhunter was officially revealed?

This was it.

I had immediately fantasized about a Guardian who supported his allies from afar, who shot healing/cleansing arrows, who shot symbols in the ground that buffed allies and cripples enemies, who could turn into an avatar of Dwayna (with wings), and you know, do more cool Guardian things (maybe shouts?)

I just feel that the Reaper and Chronomancer seem like they fit the overall theme of their respective classes much more than the Dragonhunter does. I also feel that they seem much more fun to play, mechanically speaking. Visuals, flavor, and mechanics seems much more cohesive and complimenting of each other with those two Specs. I don’t feel this way with the Dragonhunter.

In fact, I feel like there is a big disconnect with all three of those elements in the Dragonhunter. I don’t quite understand the flavor of the Dragonhunter, nor do I understand how laying traps with a bow is fun and/or attractive to anyone who identifies with the Guardian class. Traps should be symbols instead. They should also inherently provide support to allies, because that fits the flavor of the class. Visually speaking, I don’t see anything as impressive as the Reaper or Chronomancer. Which is to say, nothing cool is happening from a mechanical standpoint with the Dragonhunter, so nothing cool is happening from a visual standpoint. And it shows. There’s nothing flashy, colorful, or exciting going on.

It sucks to work on something and have someone comment negatively on all that hard work. I’m only speaking about what I see and how it makes me feel as a player. I really want to play a Chronomancer and a Reaper, but I don’t want to play a Dragonhunter at all. I’m simply not interested. Which is fine, because not everyone will want to play every Elite Spec, nor can they identify with every theme of every single Elite Spec. But the Dragonhunter doesn’t seem to have the amount of positive feedback that Reaper and Chronomancer do. I just feel like the Dragonhunter deviates too much from what a Guardian “is” as a class, and what a Guardian “does” during combat.

Thanks for reading.

reaper is actually extremely far playstyle wise from necromancer.
Attrition and medium to long range versus burst/melee range. Now, i will stay visuals/how well put together it feels, I think reaper is stronger.

but that might just be because im not as into long ranged trapper combat as others.

main point; most of these specs will be bringing something new a different to the class, rather than highlighting something they already excelled at

Killyox.3950:

Keep in mind that they have said they will change/retune a lot of existing skills and traits so we haven’t seen everything.

Shouts at least have 600 radius and you don’t have to aim them precisely like wells. Well they are good to still have fun at least. Lets reserve judgement until month after release.

the time for feedback is now, while still in development.

The aoe range is good factor, makes it somewhat better for enemies that are escaping, but still, overall pretty lackluster.

Killyox.3950:

About Cooldown on Elite Shout. 180s. Am I the only one that remembers trait -7% recharge time per target hit up to -35% CD? Which (if you hit 5 targets) reduces CD from 180s to 117s.

I like reaper tbh and his skills. They don’t have to be better than other skills. That would actually hurt the class and limit options if they were. You may still want to use non-spec skills even in repear like spectral grasp, wall and so on. Specwall will still Chill opponents when you fear them in Reaper spec and thus can do more dmg with dmg on chill and chill novas procs too.

There are many mixups with existing skills in Reaper.

they arent really on par, mostly other utilities do similar things better, or have better bonuses
Signet of Spite, passive dps boost, active better than nothing can save you/you are all weaklings (and more dmg), one target, but to be honest the180 power passive is probably more useful for groups than all the shouts.
signet of locust passive movement bonus, active as strong as any of the shouts
signet of undeath with a powerful Reaper shroud, the passive here is fairly powerful.
well of corruption aoe dps and condtion corruption, better version of “suffer”
well of suffering huge aoe dps, field, 12 stacks of vuln

the shouts arent really providing much that you cant do better elsewhere. They provide a few niche effects, but they dont stack up that well versus well/signets.

looking it over, they definately need a boost, or something more unique about them.

right now, id say only the heal is looking strong/unique enough to matter.

Scratch.9852:

This is one thing I’m genuinely concerned about. The Elite Specializations are nice and all, but at this point I feel like everyone is going to strive to be that. We won’t see diversity in class builds anymore.

I think chronomancer is throwing people off.
because the weapon is an offhand and they only added 1 shatter,, its playstyle isnt as different as other specs.

but looking at DH and Necro, they seem to provide a fairly different playstyle over all.

There are ton of reaper/DH builds that synergize better with the core.

The two big problems i would say;

• is when the core is weak
• fun factor/new tech/design being better due to more experience with the game design.

Ok, how about shouts give short duration benefits, during/matching their cast times.

based primarily around defense.

• your soul is mine condition resistance during cast (would have to be timed to serve a purpose)
• you are all weaklings 70% dmg reduction during cast.
• rise Heals half the dmg suffered during the cast
• suffer condition resistance during cast
• nothing can save you 1 stack stability during cast
• chilled to the bone ice aura?

if they want to make it more supporty, they could extend this to aoe around necro, It would be high skill to make good use of it, but would give the shout necro a bit more defense/support.

Axelwarrior.9084:

phys.7689:

Axelwarrior.9084:

So I know I’ll still be trash in dungeon running, but, well, at least I’ll have fun fighting other trash in Orr. Great.

Ehh, probably going to be pretty high DPS for bosses. under 50% hp you ll be doing pretty large dmg if you take power.

100% crits, high dmg skill with no recast/low recast and 20% dmg boost under 50% hp.
and what they claim will be the highest DPS AA,with mes quickness? yeah doesnt look bad.
might be a little to simple to do 2 skills for the win, but eh.

I don’t know… Is high DPS enough for them to be viable suddenly? Even if they had the highest DPS, it would usually be better to take a class with group support, I would assume.
I’m no dungeon expert, mind you, so forgive me if I’m wrong.

depends what you got.
if you already got those things capped, more dps could be good.

I think the biggest factor is the missing defence. They cant move fast, or evade much, 15% defense isnt too useful in that case.

the chill does help, but other classes block more than that over time, actively.

DarkSyze.8627:

Meet: The Reaper
- That was suppose to be for The Necromancer Profession
——————————————————————————————————————-

I Am Very Disappointed!!

Why? Is this what a reaper is? With a Great sword? and with chill Element?

Is not Chill Element belong to Elementalist Profession? What connection/relationship does communicating with the dead and raising the dead spirits have with an element?
Absolutely~ Nothing!!

So all of sudden: a necromancer profession become a element focus?

What connection/relationship does reaper have with great sword? Absolutely-Nothing?

Reaper: “A reaper is a farming tool or person that reaps (cuts and gathers) crops at harvest, when they are ripe. – Hand reaping is done by various means, including plucking the ears of grains directly by hand, cutting the grain stalks with a sickle, cutting them with a scythe, or with a later type of scythe called a cradle”

I do not see great sword as a reaper farming tool: where is it?

Sickle, Cradle and Scythe?

“In the aspect of the reaper or harvester, this is the spirit of death cutting down humans to harvest the souls”

Last:

First it was Guardian Profession: Dragon Hunter which make Absolute No Sense! with its profession role, Now it is Necromancer Profession: Reaper which make same Absolute No Sense! with its profession role..

I feel Arena net is refusing to innovate the Guardian Profession and the Necromancer Profession into something more meaningful and wonderful.

" Creativity is the process of having original ideas that have value "

Chill should always have been necromancers forte.
grenth is known for ice
“Grenth is the god of darkness, ice, and death.”

im sorry elementalist stole necromancers gimmick, well i guess thats their thing, stole water fire and ice from the other gods and added water.

yeah i think they need to mess with the shouts a bit more, they dont feel useful enough.

Mordeus.1234:

I see that Rise shout working in a similar fashion as the Mesmer’s clones or the GW1 Bone Minion Master . Sometimes you just want some cannon fodder to distract the enemy or to get between them and you. Overwhelm your enemy with a great number of targets that they first try to kill before you. I agree that they might be lacklustre in terms of damage but they might prove to be a good strategic tool.

death novas and life siphons

spoj.9672:

Chilling force needs to stay as it is. Its the same as forceful greatsword numbers wise. And it adds a strong solo trait to the necro to increase the necros self sufficient damage. Would be better if they changed siphoned power to a 10% modifier to be honest.

The greatsword isnt bad. I do admit the damage doesnt look as high as it needs to be. But the spam of gravedigger might make it a top weapon. That said i would like the rotation to involve swapping between dagger and greatsword. Because camping greatsword and DS is going to be boring.

yeah i guess, i wish they had another set that works really well with gs, and is as fun.

Rising Dusk.2408:

It’s slow, generates life force slowly, and from what I could see in the video seems to be dealing less damage than D/W. I’d probably only ever have one on the swap for the AOE blind skill and the pull when that’s relevant. Regardless, once we can figure out what amulet he was using in the videos we can actually do a proper comparison.

well, they basically said it should do as much or more than warrior and guardian GS, depending how you read this,

We are trying to get a feel so I believe instead of taking a total of 1.5 seconds to complete the 3 part combo like the warrior and Guardian the Necro hits a bit harder but his combo is somewhere between 1.75 and 2 seconds long for all 3 attacks combined. In general, he has attacks that tend to be in the .75 to 1 second time frame instead of .5 to .75. In reality it’s a small difference and these attacks hit hard enough to make up for it.

so, either the necklace is low power, or its in flux

im guessing death spiral is 2% per hit, otherwise the weapon has no lifeforce gain at all

if its 2% per, then its 12% which is as good as you get really, especially multiple enemies, would put you at up to 36%, its also really fast as opposed to axe which takes like 2.5 seconds to get that 12%

but we cant really confirm, however i think they want you to be going into RS fairly often with gs, and 2% wouldnt let that happen

Rising Dusk.2408:

Greatsword is pretty terrible, but reaper’s auto attack DPS is pretty impressive and it seems to have really high coefficients on the other skills in Reaper’s Shroud. Plus, it’s self-sustaining to autoattack with Vital Persistence and keep it up 100%. With Deathly Perception you won’t even need the critical hit chance on vulnerability to fly past 100% crit chance.

Given that they want to rework Chilling Force anyway because the perma 25 might is a little too much, they could just turn it into a +10% damage modifier against chilled foes and that would really put Necro DPS up to where it should be.

Overall I’m really disappointed with Greatsword, frustrated with no blast finishers even though a number of effects look like they should have one, disappointed with the shouts, but fairly pleased with Reaper’s Shroud. Also, it sure looks fun to play even if it’s bad. Story of my Necromancer’s career.

I’ll be working this all into a report sometime in the next week along with the community’s comments on the Chronomancer and Dragon Hunter.

why would you say greatsword is terrible?

or did you just want more meta focused playstyles?

Shiki.7148:

phys.7689:

Shiki.7148:

phys.7689:

Zetsumei.4975:

Well its nice that our siphons work in shroud but i think its just distracting us.

I just think it won’t work, we needed that defiance bar and lockdown mesmers are just going to rip us apart. I thought our saving grace was if they made all shouts stunbreakers but they didnt.

Its cool and all but i think the reality is that is just will not work as they expect it to. Typical necro tbh looks good on paper but just gets destroyed by interrupts.

Another this is that they talked about the big wind up paying off in trade for big damage but I just didn’t see enough base damage on the skills apart from #2.

you get pulsing stability per second for 8 seconds, on a 20 second cool down.
thats pretty good stability up time.

What I’m really interested in is this : Infusing Terror give you stability every pulse for a short duration. Once activated, Infusing Terror can be activated again to trigger Terrify. Stability does not end when you exit Reaper’s Shroud.

Does this mean we can pop DS, activate Infusing Terror, leave DS and keep the puling stability? Or does it just mean we retain the current stack of STAB?

If it is the former that might be actually pretty kitten good…especially since all those cooldowns (subject to change, yada yada) are affected by path of midnight.

you probably lose the effect that keeps pulsing it, so if you leave early, you probably get like 3 seconds of stability or so.

Someone else already said it’s pretty much considered an effect so you will keep the pulsing… And you should. Losing the rest of x seconds stab (or any boon, really) was never a thing when transitioning from DS to normal before, so I’m now pretty sure they meant the pulsing effect transitioning.

hmm well, interesting if thats the case

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Hey guys, just wondering your opinions on the Reaper vs core Necromancer.

Do you feel that Necros will underperform if not specialized? Right now Chronomancer offers a lot of strong additions but each Mesmer trait line is good enough that there are still plenty of incentives to use regular Mesmer.

In your opinion, is it the same for Necro?

reaper offers a very distinct playstyle.
so i dont think it will overshadow, that said, its a lot better put together, and i think the core necro still has some basic issues.

Shiki.7148:

phys.7689:

Zetsumei.4975:

Well its nice that our siphons work in shroud but i think its just distracting us.

I just think it won’t work, we needed that defiance bar and lockdown mesmers are just going to rip us apart. I thought our saving grace was if they made all shouts stunbreakers but they didnt.

Its cool and all but i think the reality is that is just will not work as they expect it to. Typical necro tbh looks good on paper but just gets destroyed by interrupts.

Another this is that they talked about the big wind up paying off in trade for big damage but I just didn’t see enough base damage on the skills apart from #2.

you get pulsing stability per second for 8 seconds, on a 20 second cool down.
thats pretty good stability up time.

What I’m really interested in is this : Infusing Terror give you stability every pulse for a short duration. Once activated, Infusing Terror can be activated again to trigger Terrify. Stability does not end when you exit Reaper’s Shroud.

Does this mean we can pop DS, activate Infusing Terror, leave DS and keep the puling stability? Or does it just mean we retain the current stack of STAB?

If it is the former that might be actually pretty kitten good…especially since all those cooldowns (subject to change, yada yada) are affected by path of midnight.

you probably lose the effect that keeps pulsing it, so if you leave early, you probably get like 3 seconds of stability or so.

Axelwarrior.9084:

So I know I’ll still be trash in dungeon running, but, well, at least I’ll have fun fighting other trash in Orr. Great.

Ehh, probably going to be pretty high DPS for bosses. under 50% hp you ll be doing pretty large dmg if you take power.

100% crits, high dmg skill with no recast/low recast and 20% dmg boost under 50% hp.
and what they claim will be the highest DPS AA,with mes quickness? yeah doesnt look bad.
might be a little to simple to do 2 skills for the win, but eh.

i dont see theif or ranger getting it, but everyone else? could be.

i would lead toward ele or warrior though

Vizardlorde.8243:

The problems i see with shouts is that they are useless when facing 1-2 targets (like in pvp) and decent to strong when facing 3-5. The Reapershroud in the other hand had me drooling. The Blood magic changes might actually make Blood viable outside minionmaster builds thanks to the healing through the shroud. The blood aura seems questionable for pve since I have yet to see any group asking for venom share thieves despite them giving stronger heals conditions etc. The Greatsword looks good but the AA damage better be massive to make up for being the slowest AA chain ever, the number 2 seems broken unless they meant 50% instead of 100 or it has an ICD cause spamming the most damaging ability without a cooldwon would be game breaking and incredibly fun.

its pretty slow on its own though, and the other skills are situational.
and it has to be below 50%