Guild Wars 2

As somebody mentioned earlier, this is only the case because the current pve meta takes into account of really high quickness uptime from boonshare chronomancer.

With that said, you need to take this issue to the pve discussion or the chrono forums because most other professions are in the same state at the moment when it comes to meta pve rotation (raids, fractal, dungeon). Take DH rotation for example: camp hammer and spam 1.

In fact, you shouldn’t even try to justify thief mechanics and game play based on pve because pve in general is faceroll. In high level pvp settings, you will note that thief has probably the highest mechanical learning curve compared to other professions and requires pinpoint player interactions to be successful.

If you want to press other buttons other than 1 and feel rewarded in pve, I’d recommend engineer.

invuln actually blocks the condi application.

This should definitely evadable/blockable though.
Right now, there are no counterplays to this, so if you land bunch of conditions, just approach your enemy and use elite to apply unevadable poison and other cover conditions, broken.

I also made a post about this couple days ago because im pretty sure this is a bug that needs not fixing… no counterplay poison application unless u tp out as soon u see elite..

Ive tested it and it is indeed unblockable and undodgeable.

Cynz.9437:

tomwjd.8172:

I’m a 5k hour thief and will also say that impacting disruption is kittened. This single trait literally makes match up against other non condi specs (especially against other thieves and revs) kittened easy. toning down the damage at least 50% is necessary imo.

so we are back to staff 5 spamming? kkkk

Spamming staff 5 is probably the easiest way for you to get killed. On the staff kit, staff 3 is definitely more important than any other staff skills. Ini managemwnt wins skirmishes.

I’m a 5k hour thief and will also say that impacting disruption is kittened. This single trait literally makes match up against other non condi specs (especially against other thieves and revs) kittened easy. toning down the damage at least 50% is necessary imo.

Hotfix this please…

Krait rune 6th bonus occurs a little after the elite skill finishes which is fine but the condi application cannot be avoided through evading or blocking, pretty sure its a bug.
No counterplay/broken that sorta stuff..
FYI, Momentary pacification from revenant’s salvation line is also unavoidable/unblockable but nobody really uses salvation anyway.

Krait rune 6th bonus occurs a little after the elite skill finishes which is fine but the condi application cannot be avoided through evading or blocking, pretty sure its a bug.
No counterplay/broken that sorta stuff..

FYI, Momentary pacification from revenant’s salvation line is also unavoidable/unblockable but nobody really uses salvation anyway.

Zelulose.8695:

The issue isn’t that it cant be killed by good players. The problem is that it can be played by the masses to kill the masses. Imagine facing 5 of them. The conditions would be max stacked and good luck keeping track of that many perma evades.

My video clearly showed that I was using no skill and hand clicking skills. I’m sure that thief was trying much harder than I was and used more practiced skill. The point is he still lost to the no skill build. This will frustrate players entering pvp.

The thief in the video dueling you is me. This video of you trying to show the “effectiveness” of the build is kind of useless because it is in fact only useful to troll conquest.

Why are our previous duels not shown on the recording?
After I said, “let me test something,” in the chat box, I swapped to beserker ammy and critical strikes line(no swiftness after dodge, no poison application from steal, and no condi wipe after coming out of stealth).
This clip only shows cs trick dd power thief vs acro trick dd condi thief which heavily favors the latter because of the limited dodge and condition clears that critical strikes line has.

A good clip showing the effectiveness of this build should of been against a da or acro line because those are much superior dueling specs that the thief can offer. Its actually pretty easy to outplay this condition acro build and eventually beat it using the power acro or da thief with well timed bursts and condi cleanse management, the only cost is the time because there are just a lot of dodges.

With that said, this will only beat builds that doesnt have a combination of condi clear and sustain. You have no real pressure unless you burn your defensive mechanic(ini and energy) which you need to conserve wisely in tpvp against threats like revenant burst, juking the enemy thief’s steal, ranger pet burst, dodging shatters, etc.

In fact in team fights, this build is completely useless because the enemy’s support can just clear and patch up something that you will beat (power revs) otherwise in duels only.

Still waiting on the hot fix.

Assassin’s annihilation leeches 2k hp when using projectiles. (precision strike/staff 3 projectile/ hammer auto lol.. etc )
This 2k hp leech doesnt happen however when air/fire sigil procs on that same projectile.
Edit The leech damage scales with power.

Also the trait ignores the flanking part of the prerequisite which was supposed to be fixed.

Just face melt w/ 2k leeching in their face.

This life leech “normalization” possibly could of bugged out other leech effects from sigils, skills, etc.

Broken game

It hits for about 2k damage (2032) when hitting enemies w/ projectiles. (precision strike, warding rift, hammer auto attack)

It also ignores the flanking part of the trait description, you can still life steal even if hitting them from the front.

Yes. +1 This please.

Being able to boon strip more frequently will make us better contenders in the tpvp meta (bunker busting) while not overtuning our favorable match up against warriors, mesmers, and reapers. This will only help against hard counters such as scrappers and dragon hunters by giving us an option to take away their boons responsible for outsustaining and hard countering us(retal mainly).

I totally agree about nerfing the current power creeps but i just doubt that anet will take action in that regards.

Rofl. Gj havoc

-Min

I also read your balance thread Madvisions. Those are excellent and well thoughtout ideas.

I especially like making those two stolen skills unblockable, we definitely need that against our biggest hard counters.

I also agree that pulmonary impact damage is too strong atm, sometimes it even rewards mindless usage of initiative on interrupts.

Hey guys, April patch is coming up. Thieves are still struggling in the meta so lets show some dedication to our profession. Previous idea about bandit’s defense was a success and was removed from the original post. I also updated some of my ideas.

Acrobatics line is still struggling to compete w/ deadly arts line. Rather than advocating more passive traits and overloading acro w/ more survivability, i’d like to propose the replacement of instant reflex or vigorous renewl (a poor and redundant trait since acro already has abundant vigor uptime from feline grace) with old power of inertia trait(might on dodge) and incorporate 10% dmg modifier when endurance bar is not full to one of the minor traits.
Since feline grace nerf last year, I think its justifiable to add back these traits.
Before acrobatics got gutted back in june 2014, the trait line rewarded the thief in a sustained fight on top of giving thieves more diverse rune choices such as the usage of hoelbrak and strength runes. Back then, acro actually competed with the deadly arts line…
Compared to deadly arts’ 30% conditional modifiers on top of poison/dmg/heal on steal, acrobatics line is lacking.

Acrobatics line is still struggling to compete w/ deadly arts line. Rather than advocating more passive traits and overloading acro w/ more survivability, i’d like to propose the replacement of instant reflex or vigorous renewl (a poor and redundant trait since acro already has abundant vigor uptime from feline grace) with old power of inertia trait(might on dodge) and incorporate 10% dmg modifier when endurance bar is not full to one of the minor traits.

Since feline grace nerf last year, I think its justifiable to add back these traits.
Before acrobatics got gutted back in june 2014, the trait line rewarded the thief in a sustained fight on top of giving thieves more diverse rune choices such as the usage of hoelbrak and strength runes. Back then, acro actually competed with the deadly arts line…

Compared to deadly arts’ 30% conditional modifiers on top of poison/dmg/heal on steal, acrobatics line is lacking.

I’m currently present for the tournament thats suppose to happen in 5 minutes…

“Tues. 2/23 12 PM EST”
according to original post.

So why aren’t the moderators for this tournament on right now?

I’d like to participate. Is it best out of 3?

According to patch notes:

Staff Strike: This skill’s damage has been increased by 36%.
Staff Bash: This skill’s damage has been increased by 16%.
Punishing Strikes: This skill’s damage has been increased by 44%.

I’m not noticing the difference from pre-patch however. Need more confirmation on this.

We should be able to steal boons more consistently even without trickery line. we are thieves afterall, it makes sense thematically too. All of our stealth attacks should steal a boon. Perhaps steal a full stack as well so we can fulfill a role as bunker busters in pvp and take on all those cheese cele builds that stack 25 might and stability.

Escapist absolution should also become baseline for daredevils and there should be a new master tier trait that benefits shortbow or dagger offhand.

Acrobatics should increase endurance regen for the thief and the party as well as some damage increase modifiers so they can have presence in raids and other pve groups.

Thieves should also be able to apply reveal to give them a counterplay against scrappers. Maybe dust strike, dancing dagger, poisonous gas, etc. (No scope skillshots inc)

Revealed training should also clear a condi upon being revealed so it can compete with panic strike.

Base hp needs to be increased..

Edited my original post to include some new ideas for possible implementation on the next balance patch.

It gets stuck everytime…

So many people are having trouble completing their HOPE tier 4 completion because of this.

I actually really like the idea of dust strike revealing enemies from stealth. It fits thematically as well as gives more utility to a 4 ini skill w/ mediocre range. Using it as a “skill shot” skill to reveal an enemy seems fun too.

Making the dagger offhand trait getting a charge from applying conditions will make d/d condi evade spam thieves even more cancer than it already is. It also does not benefit s/d thieves which needs some help at the moment. At least if you make it tied to critical hits, the condi thieves have an option to use condi/precision gear.

If not unblockable vault, then we need a way to out play scrappers. Our current hardest match up are DH, tempest, and scrappers. There are options to outplay DH and tempest through evades/interrupts/long ccs but not for scrappers. They have more reliable stealth, sustain, tankiness, retaliation, blocks, and passives. Ideally, their sustain/block uptime/stealth capabilities should be nerfed but that will weaken them against other non thief builds in the meta. Perhaps thieves should be able to reveal stealthed opponents on hit, which would give teams another reason to bring a thief in a match.

(updated and edited)

important
Acrobatics baseline traits: (To compete with DA line in the tpvp meta)
-feline grace gives vigor to all nearby allies, not just yourself. (Team support)
-10% damage modifier when you have vigor boon.
-Might on dodge (power of inertia) replaces vigorous recovery (redundant trait) so we can have more variety of rune choices like Strength, hoelbrak, etc.
-Pain Response only triggers when you have bleed ,burning, poison, or torment.
-Hard to Catch cool down increased from 30 to 45 seconds.

important
-Boonstrip when landing stealth attacks (will give thieves more value and presence in pvp by being able to strip key boons like stability and protection)

-change preparedness trait and make 15 initiative baseline. (will give more build variety. Atm thieves are most likely to take trickery+daredevil, leaving only one line for build variety)

-Bountiful theft should be baseline for steal, it makes sense thematically and is also needed.

-increase base health to match the other medium professions.

-combine escapist’s absolution with the second daredevil minor trait. Add another master tier trait that will synergize with dagger offhand to give sword dagger and dagger dagger thieves some support. (Currently we have great traits that are in master tier but are rarely taken because of condition pressure in the current meta and the lack of thief sustainability… combining EA with the baseline minor trait will give daredevils an option to define their choice of weaponset: staff for staff master/pistol offhand for pulmonary impact/ dagger offhand for the newly added trait.)

Possible idea for the trait:
-“when holding a dagger offhand, gain a charge for every successful critical hit. After accumulating 4 charges, the next hit will steal a boon.”

Weapon set balance

-Revert SD nerfs in the past. (sd 3 always toggling regardless of hit, larcenous strike stealing 2 boons, etc)

-Cloak and dagger applies blind on hit

-Bouncing dagger applies poison

-death blossom begins its evade instantaneously like the other weapon evade skills, increase the power damage coefficient.

-Staff 4 applies revealed on hit. (Skill shot reveals, counterplay and utility against sneak gyro reviving in tpvp scene.)

Other
-Scorpion wire working like DH F1 mechanics. (decapping potential in tpvp by pulling bunker out of node, lolz.)

-Revealed training on Deadly Arts line also removing one condition upon getting revealed. (To compete w/ panic strike trait)

Atm,, we seem to be pigeon-holed into decapping and +1 ganking. I stated the above ideas in hopes that thieves can bring more utility to an organized team by being the “bunker buster” through more reliable and consistent boonstrips.
Support the thread by adding creative ideas for the next thief balance patch. Try to keep it reasonable and defining for thieves’ role in the meta.

After 4549 hours of my time dedicated to thief, even through the dark times from June 2015 to Jan 2016, these are my current thoughts and suggestions.

Currently, trailblazer’s intricate gossamer insignias cannot be used to convert your ascended armor in the mystic forge.

This is probably a bug because I was able to convert my ascended into viper, which was another new stat combination that was introduced with HoT.

Just did a lvl 94 cliffside fractal as a ranger (druid). When i grabbed archdiviner’s hammer, my agony resistance went down as the AR from my weapon slot dropped… meanwhile my party members retained their AR when holding the hammer.

Shield of Courage:
Passive: Grants aegis periodically.
Active: Create a shield in front of you that blocks projectiles for you and your allies. Grant aegis to nearby allies.

It also blocks melee attacks while the shield is up when it should only block projectiles.

Can somebody test if you can use the three different daredevil dodges while dazed? I hope they still function as a dodge instead of a skill that can be dazed..

Aye. Toxic players will bypass the ban system by abusing the free account perk to harass custom servers if the ban limit is unmodified.

I really like the ideas. I would also add that SE should also remove weakness condition because a long duration of it can both neutralize thief’s damage pressure while reducing effectiveness of their important defense that is dodge… also using withdraw with trickster trait should remove the condi BEFORE the heal is applied, right now when we have poison condi and use traited withdraw, the healing portion is effected by poison despite it being cleared…also healing coefficient needs to get increased by 10% as promised…
Revealed training trait needs to remove a damaging condition upon being revealed with an ICD of at least 6 sec on top of the 200 power increase because atm it is out shined by panic strike. Also we dont want reveal utilities and passive traits from other professions to simply hardcounter us (soft counter is ok). Its hilarious to easily condi stack as an engi then put a 10+ sec reveal on the thief as they melt…

There was a thread proposal to roll back SE to prepatch when it cleared all types of condition periodically but for the sake of counter play (immobilize, fear, etc) I do not mind the change.

What I do mind is not being able to clear weakness condition.

Unlike other professions, we lack vitality/traits that give passive defense from conditions/damage and we are forced to rely heavily on well timed dodges aside from our blinds, stealth, and shadowstep.

Weakness condition is very debilitating to thieves especially because we need our energy regen to dodge as well as be able to pressure (best offense is also our defense) when we land burst in stealth. When we are afflicted with longer duration of weakness, our damage potential and pressure is meaningless even with fury boon because half our hits are 1/2 dmg so even when we have our steal and initiative up for burst its often nullified by weakness condition. On top of all that, we are very vulnerable because we won’t be able to dodge key attacks and condition bombs.

The nerf on vigor was also a big hit to thieves running bountiful theft (encouraged in meta to strip important boons) because we depend on dodges more than other professions.

Weakness in general is just another utility that passive condi builds can utilize to hardcounter power builds even more…

Right now, thieves are pigeon holed into camping stealth because of stronger condis after patch and SE is our ONLY reliable way to clear condis aside from burning important cds.
When we are fighting professions that can reveal for long durations (engi), our whole trait line is countered and we are forced to burn our cds and intiative to hopefully survive the pressure.

With that said, the deadly arts line definitely seems to be in our current meta and every single thief is most likely running panic strike trait because often times it outshines revealed training. On top of that, the trait seems to encourage RNG along with improv.

(Edit) My proposal is that revealed training trait not only gives extra power while being revealed, it should also clear 2 conditions upon entering reveal with an ICD of 15~20 sec.

This way, we are not completely hard countered by reveal and it ALSO discourages stealth camping because right now a smart thief is forced to wait out the duration of debilitating conditions (weakness,chill,etc) before attempting to burst from stealth.

This should also provide some build diversity within Deadly Arts line as well as give those pve meta thieves(DA/Critical strikes/Trickery) a way to condi clear using the revealed training trait.

I dont know if any of you mentioned it but weakness is another condition that is devastating for thieves especially if they are power spec. Glancing blows can seriously screw up your burst AND sustained damage. Prepatch i would always clear weakness before doing any dps but now if your opponent stacks some weakness duration on you, you will just hit like wet noodle for the next several seconds unless you clear it with something other than shadow’s embrace. It is most of the time unwise to burst or keep trading blows when you have weakness because you will just get out sustained and will probably end up using up most of your initiative to do no damage.

I’d like to add confirmation to the bug. Yes, this bug really delays my timing on my bursts after using these bundles after steal.

So I had an ele use armor of earth, which gives 10 stacks of stability for 6 seconds, and immediately used traited steal to take the boons.

Results: only a single stack of stability that didn’t even last full 6 seconds (more like 2 sec or less). Was this intended??

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZIQNAoYVlsMpyplOx7J8PNxOBtdtDwA4+EdoEdtDA-ThCFABHqWBAnCgCVV5KlgC8EAQSZmTKJSSpAN7Pkm+kAAHA/23A45nf+5nfuh/93n/d4A-e

vs

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZIQNAoYVlsMpyplOx7J8PNxOBtdtDwA4+EdoEdtDA-TxCFABHqSAAnAgCVV5KlgC8AAQSZmTKJSSpghqRQz+DppPJAwBwv9NAe+5nf+5nb4h/95f/NA-e

The first one sacrifices more toughness to reach 222% critical damage while the second has over 1400 toughness. Made the builds so that excess precision was taken out and moved to vitality/toughness/critical damage and some power via this function: (1735 precision – 916 base precision) / 21 + 4 to calculate my critical chance without any decimal places or remainders. Both utilizes hidden killer trait. I don’t plan on using foods when I run casually.

That said, how effective is that extra toughness or critical damage??
Which one would benefit more in 1v1 or 1vx??