Guild Wars 2

The most important thing – Have a strong PC setup and little to no lag so that the above two efforts are not in vain.

That’s the tips, with micro-lags in the game and average player’s lag, vast majority of player can’t react to animation but can only predict next enemy action with experience …

On a side note it will be good if we can move the dammage display. Sometimes when it pop on ennemies we can’t see his actions.

Ive lost to more mesmers than I can count……mesmers don’t need a buff

If you lost to a condi thief as a Mesmer, that’s more of your fault than anything

- It’s not a buff, just a different gameplay.
- I don’t lost to condi thief, i’m just pointing how stupid it was to remove the third main gameplay mesmer has with the argument of cheesy then bring cheesythings to everyone (and anyway shatter spam is actually cheesy with 6 action per shatter.) same goes to every pegi-4 build with 50% passives uptime and clic to win builds we have today.

btw if you want to troll condi thief, run a dispell build with retal he will blow himself.

Conclusion : bring back clonespammer to mesmer …

(when you see that today, every class has good or strong effects on dodge.)

#this is a message from a mesmer gameplay diversity activist.

About difficulty and LS : did you try other build, other equipments ?
When I see an encounter who will be hard I change my build to make it easier.
(And they are really many build pegi 4 on every professions who are very compliant with reflex issues today.)

I mean ok, we all have differents issues, skills, hardware ect, but build & equipments adaptation are here to help everyone find his way.

Torment were added simultanously to mesmer and necro https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2013-06-25#Profession_Skills

And when I talk about class identification in my previous post, I think more about war/rogue who put torment and confusion, about dh who put slow etc.
I’m just thinking every time they split mecanics into other profession, it reduce class identification.
Anyway I’m not against rev alacrity.

(Sorry for bad english, not native)

I will talk only about mesmer as it’s my main :

- About arcane thuevery, null field, feedback, signet of midnight, phantasmal defender up :
we can see the direction about up thoses skills to promote uses.
But you can add a 10 sec cd on signet, it will not change anything on many gamemode because the skill itsefl is good but :
- on PvP, signet of illusion is a must have, same for portal, and I doubt than even with a low Signet of Midnight cd, it will replace blink. (and traiting signet = decap.)
- on WvW, many damage come from range and out-numbered, so even with traits signets have low uses.
- on PvE, I doubt a pve player want to active the signet if they take it because they just need the passive.
- on duel, it had his uses and don’t need up. (anyway we don’t care much about duelling.)
Same can be said about arcane thievery, null field, feedback, phantasmal defender.
They had their uses before update and I feel thoses 4 up weren’t necessary as they were good in the uses they had and they don’t gain new uses after update.

About time warp changement : nice to somes points but every ulti, particulary thoses with long cd suffer from F5 chrono who reduce their cd to 90 (76) sec and it will ever be an issue as it create a gap beetween chrono and basic.

Portal Exeunt, well of action and chaos armor changes were comodity change, ok.

Illusionary Counter and Illusionary counter changes are really nice as in many situations it was really risky to block and can possibly add more diversity.

About phantasms changes :
it’s nice to have effect on phantasm’s casts but apart for the phantasmal mage, they have little to no impact.

I have 1 question from this update :
- why 0 traits ajustments ? (as it’s much traits than spells who define builds.)

I also have two questions for the future :
- mantra don’t have any synergy with chrono, and actually from what I see, aren’t very used, do you plan something about ?
- will it be possible to give back a day the synergy with centaure’s runes and mantra of recovery (proc on cast) ?

Tbh I don’t give a kitten about alacrity remaining our “unique feature” – it’s not like they changed alacrity to a boon and gave it to every class.

Have no idea whether it will even give Ventari what it needs to be useful, but the act of giving alacrity away is not an issue.

This + its just like confusion and torment who where launched as a mesmer thing, then given to many professions…

But it will be good if they can save some “roleplay” (identification) on professions (like why dh had slow on trap last patch ?), or at last give an explanation on how it come from to this class (put a little rp description so we dont feel like they are juste choosing an effect and given it to a classe “because” it has 0 relation to the profession but we think it will balance it.).

For instance, I know that you could proc on death condi’s by simply destroying your own clones (via generation). No mindless melee or aoe spamming opponent necessary!

Nice, you learned your lesson well.
We have only 1 melee clone, other are ranged.
So unless your ennemies are staying between your clones, you don’t do perma cripple and weakness. Fighting a clonespammer is all about positionning.
But I agree that they can reduce the aoe from 240 to 120.
And remember that during a moment, deceptive evasion didn’t pop more than 3 illusions, so only clones from weapon can trigger on death.

Honestly, if you’re going to come to school, listen to teacher. Don’t stand up and try to lecture the class. You’re clearly still learning!

Cause you are the teacher ???
That sounds a bit pretentious.
It’s not because I didn’t post on this forum every week that I start mesmerising a month ago.
It’s because of people who feel they are omniscient and criticize more with subjective point of view than with raw data that, among others, we lack of diversity today.

When you take a look at every discussion about this subject, the main argument against are :
it is cheesy (subjective), it is passive(subjective), I feel so good playing shatter burst (subjective) that other build are all newbies and so on.

Anyway, now you’ve sat back down

It seem I was sitting too long thoses pasts years…

I don’t see how you draw the conclusion that therefor clone death is the way forward XD

Because there is a mountain between removing a main mecanic and fix it.
I’m just against people who continue critisize on death while the main problem was the synergy it had with other traits.

Here’s an idea! Let’s give Mesmer some builds with good access to cripple and weakness that don’t involve clones being killed by the enemy! /GASP/CONTROVERSY/

ironic : good idea, let’s put it on shatter, so my shatter’s description can hit the top of my screen

I’d like to see that returned. In doing so it would create more build diversity by breathing life into builds that don’t currently work.

PU and phantasm work without on death.
For PU, just remember after the 23 june patch, the vast majority of mesmer were running PU in WvW even without on death, like pyro said it’s just a powerfull defensive neutral tool. And currently we can sometimes see PU condi mes in WvW.
For phantasm, the ideal phantasm build run 2 or 3 active phantasm so how on death clone can be usefull in any way ?

The only interest I see on on death is the different gameplay they brought.

Churning out unlimited cripple and weakness

You were just facing mindless melee or equivalent?

while kiting endlessly

Due to stealth (pu combo), nothing to do with one death.
Have you ever try a clonespammer without stealth ?

I get bored of people who cry about eliminate something they don’t like.
It just leads to : as much as cheesy as before, sometimes even more, and 0 diversity.

I’m fed up about shatter who do the coffee, and the full shatter orientation.

Another note : can we hope one day a come back on the speed proc on mantra cast with centaur’s runes ?

@for thoses who talk about counter play for on death, even more if the combo with pu is nerfed, you just have to pewpew from range.

The vast majority of skills in the game are aoe. It’s not inherently mindless just because you use aoe. If I can’t turn off the aoe, then there is little decision to make if I fight a clone death build. I keep using my aoe and grit my teeth/ use utilities to deal with the passive clone death as infinite clones keep spawning.

it requires aoe and melee.
And about aoe, you suffer far more from retaliation on every class who put this boon, than any on death did or would do (if we talk about the 1 stack of confusion and 1 chance on 3 to 2 stack of blood and even with vulnerability proc it won’t reach the 350 to 425+ retaliation does).
And about the clone spam, they just have to put on death traits on the same branch as clone generation traits.

I don’t trust that reflect on clone when using manipulation will change anything because there isn’t much aoe reflectable.

Really we should be having 3 phantasms out in fights nearly all the time though.

Why not, it can bring back a different gameplay but it is incompatible with the current orientation.

Currently you can’t do anything if you don’t shatter minimum every 10 seconds (to dispell, to dammage, to control, to give boon, to heal, to invul, to cc) (note : I don"t know in pve.) whereas before even when playing on death or phantasm, I was using shatters occasionally when I needed it.
And I doubt that having pure utilitary phantasm can change anything about the current orientation.

I like thoses ideas :

you can take lots of idea from the game itself. like guard trap daze/slow now on activation. so illusions when spawn will slow or daze around them (an active not passive)
trait which regen hp to illusions like pets do.
leach life when attack like minions have
buff illusion dmg while destroyed after the attack
maybe even clones (not phantasm) are unkillable but will destroyed after 10 second so more mind tricks.
and many more

But a well configured on death can join this list.

we dont want passive

It would be nice to first agree on the definition of passive before continue.

For me, an active gameplay can be the number of differents clics to do something.
And the power of the effects the clic have.

I do not consider a fantasm harder to kill who do X dammage per attack more passive than a non mesmer class who do 3*X dammage in 1 attack.

Anyway actually I play my mesmer by tradition but I’m not happy with the gameplay proposed this past year.

And on death were probably passive if we consider the spam who come by deceiptive evasion but dev can put thoses traits in competition and it wouldn’t have been more passive than what we have today with shatter who do the coffee.

Fay is right and I don’t share the main argument of the op, for me it is more about build diversity than to power up other builds.
There was three main gameplay on mes and they totally remove one (on death), the second is dying(fantasm), and the third was overbuffed (shatter everywhere.) => lack of diversity.

This entire thread has no ground once you know that > 75% of this forum is pro-shatter, were against on death, are against and will ever be against, and this discussion will never end.

But the “passive” gameplay everybody use to justify is just meh.
Today I do 1 clic to F1 : dammage, condiclean, condi, alacrity.
Past I do 1 clic to pop a clone : cripple, random condi, 1 stack confusion.
Each 240 aoe around the illusion, F1 will run to the target.

The clone generation was certainly too fast but there is a world between mitigate something and remove it completely.

I don’t understand how the mecanic is much passive than any other we have when we look at the number of active clics to do something.
They can just disable the combo with PU and with deceptive evasion and all were fine.

However I do not have much hope of seeing them back someday…

I know it isn’t an argument but I’m crying each time I see an evade who have X effects on other professions after they removed on death trait because of “cheesy”.
And if I remember, the main problem wasn’t particulary thoses traits but the combo with PU who allow passive play. (and the dammage came much from staff clone auto and from the mes than from on death traits.)

Past, I was sometimes playing pure clonespammer 20/30/20/0/0 and it wasn’t more passive than other spec.

Anyway I really dislike the “shatter or nothing” orientation that came from the 23 june 2015 update.
I mean what is more cheesy/passiv/etc beetween a Fx who have tons effects like dammage, condiclean, condi, boon (have you just see the number of line to describe a shatter today ?) and a clone who random inflict condi on death on a small radius with small dammage ?
Just to say that passiv/cheesy and other relative stuff are where you want to find them and cant be a serious argument like counters and maths.

That said, I’m all for a total rework of our mecanics.

You also have a lot of old video on this sticky : https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/List-Find-your-Mesmer-Builds-Guides/first

Like always, skill is relative.

Just get in mind that not all mesmer share pro-shatter = master skill, like it seems to ever been in this forum. (or at last not all mesmers find it interesting.)

While we are asking for ridiculous things from Gw2s past can Thieves get crit on Mug because that was so….. Interesting and provided complex gameplay…..

Ridiculous is your point of view, I’m ok with it but it cheap in informations, we can’t compare thieve mecanics with mesmer mecanics, and personally I don’t care about crit on mug.

1. clone death traits were not interesting traits to begin with
2.its not what power shatter needs ,i would like anet make HS back as minor trait for dom line .and move current +0.5 %damage to vulne target to GM and buff it .
3.we dont use cancer to counter cancer .

1. It’s your point of view, you found it not interesting, it’s not the case for everyone.
2. Contrarily to op, I don’t shearch to buff power shatter here but to have a different gameplay come back.
I used sometimes a 20/20/10/20/0 direct dammage build who had a nice use of cripple on death.
3. Cancer (i really don’t like this word use on game context, still prefer cheesy) is like skill relative from the player who play.
Was on death with pu cheesy ? From my view, probably.
Was remove totaly the on death concept a good idea, definitly not from my view.
And their justification was kinda brief, like when they remove retaliation from mesmer with the justification : mesmer are not supposed to be hit. (when we think about the chaos armor concept… cough cough.)

I’m really curious of how many people thinking it was imba op can do something with it today. (even when it was in game, i don’t have much issues fighting blackwater or other clone spam.)

We can run in circle about this subject during years but I don’t share the majority opinion who said it was healthy to remove it. (other options were possible.)

I can say the same with dh actually :
go out the circle, take dammage from trap, stay in the circle, take damage from symbol.
And with many other aoe.

on death had a small aoe.

The main problem is not only that clone insta die, it’s that we haven’t actually a gameplay based on long fight, it’s all bursty : interrupt, condi burst, direct busrt, other i miss.
or utilitary bot : veil, portal, boonshare.

I don’t know how to explain that, but we lose a no-bursty gameplay.

And the main problem with on death was PU + on death. (and mindless spam melee cleave.)

it was too easy to just put clones and vanish/kite while they do the job in one way or another. In a sense, clone-death traits are counterplay to counterplay, it does not make sense.

I agree with you but if i have to choose, I prefer put off clone dammage but have on death.

Clone death condi spam wasn’t the only build who use clone death.

Criple on death was usefull for direct dammage to control melee distance to give an example.

And with condi spam, it wasn’t the clone death trait who kill player, but clone/mesmer attack.
(only dammage were 1 chance on 3 to do bleed and 1 stack confusion.)

I think it really destroy much opportunities for mesmer to remote it, instead of moving the trait where it compete with pu for example.

The thing is actually you have profession who easily do 5k-7k dammage aoe on 1 clic = insta clone death + more dammage than any clone death will do.

First, they still contradict our core mechanic. You’d either want to focus on shattering your Illusions or keeping your Phantasms alive. Clone on death traits don’t contribute to neither of those goals making them a fall back mechanic which requires no skill at all.

There is more skill to press 1 clic and to 7k aoe than to proc a clone?
I think it was one of the mesmer core mechanic from my view, and this remove hurt much gameplay diversity, skilled or not.

Other thing is , actually mesmer gameplay is all about burst in WvW, PvP.
You condi burst or direct dammage burst, but it rest burst. => monogameplay.
Clone death has the possibility to promote less bursty gameplay.

Edit : (or utilitary bot.)

Moreover there are lots, lots, lots more “cheesy” mecanics today with less counter than clone deaths.

The clone deaths would punish some of the mindless aoe spam that is a part of every match.

+10000

Clone probably insta die because of aoe, it’s very frequent in pvp.

Just for people who dispense all their rage on dbl and said we have bad memories etc :

- WvW was dying before HoT. (hint about bad memories.)
Maybe you were on a top tiers server and didn’t see anything but for many server it was dying.
- DBL have issues but it wasn’t only this map who speed up the WvW desertification.
(new mechanic, guild hall, hot spec, etc have a big impact, probably much more important than juste the map.)

Diversity is a must.

An elite spec who use illusion like bombs when they die ?
#OnDeathTraitTheReturnYay
(“cheesy” (= dev die to it) or not it was an interesting mecanic versus mindless spammer, and anyway there are that much “cheesy” things today so that it shouldn’t do much difference.)

On other note, we have time with chrono, maybe space with the next.

Helloooo,

This is a short video with no pretention we did about our hall’s jumping.
(note : there are short sentences in french but it’s probably not too disturbing .)
Hope you enjoy it

https://youtu.be/PUxW2JcbTz8

Good connexion >= good computer > other things.

Sorry, I can"t resist

I’m not to bring back Alpine maps as top priority as WvW was at death’s door on it ever before HoT on my server.

Anyway :

1. Population balance (maybe a queue if there are more than X% of player difference.)
2. Give Interest to play WvW. (A title, new skin, a server bonus, whatever.)
3. You have 4 map on the hand, put the 4 for each MU : Desert, Alpine, Eternal, EoM. (Then we will see which of these are the more entertraining AFTER population imbalance fix.)
4. Make it impossible to fight the same more than 2 consecutive weeks.
5. Don’t turn WvW only for big squad/guilds (like with hall upgrade.).

Sry for bumping old post but I haven’t seen any answer.

Did someone has any news ?
Did we know if it was intented or a bug ?

Sometimes, my old build with centaur runes and mantra of recovery miss me.

Thanks, the same to your server and vabbi, glhf.

At least, i enjoy some interesting 1v1 fight this week, thanks to both server.

i run rampager with my current pve build :
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgAQNAsaWlwziqXQzhGa9IhpCBH1DsndvX6Bu5duB-jQDBIgERjUEAUFRjEBkKAJ/ZIr5QRsaCt0iIaUXDTBjIq2ebY1mcJSKAYmGB-e

the problem is that full rampager still overcap you on crit.

Nice def on Mendon.
(And also good guildplay.)
A poor fr mesmer who hoped for recup mendon before sleep.

(And also long fight in stonemist who was incredible for many of us.)