Guild Wars 2

glaphen.5230:

As I already said who is gonna sit there inside wells while being auto attacked. Power can do more damage but it is far harder to pull off in 99% of PvP situations.

Thats what Dark Pact is for.

But that doesn’t matter. Cause you’re just going to say “LOL who would get hit by X.” and keep remaining ignorant in the face of truth. ANet isn’t going to nerf dire. They’ve seen the calculations, they know whats up. This thread was already won back on the first page. At this point its just pointless bickering and raging for the sake of raging.

Condis are broken and nobody can deny it. They are OP when roaming with less than 5 people and they are UP in zerg fights. It wont be easy to fix them. To be completely honest, I don’t know how to fix them either. Well atleast not for zerg fights as making them viable would make them immediately broken.

Why are condis OP?
1. The stats, as been said before only 2 stats are important. Condition damage and duration. Duration ain’t even so important tho, you just get it from the food anyway. Precision is only important for certain classes up to a certain point. But good that you can get it all on the rabid set. Dire is even worse for like necros. They don’t really need precision and can go rediculously tanky while still pumping out max damage.

2. Some conditions have too many effects. Poison deals damage AND cuts your healing, Chill increases cooldown on skills AND reduces your mobility with -66% (more than cripple…) AND often the skill has a dmg factor to it aswel. Weakness reduces your endurance regeneration by A LOT AND cuts your dmg almost in half.

3. Conditions are a passive form of defense, only making the armor stats of the condition spammer more valuable. Conditions like cripple and chill will cut the mobility and conditions are always spammed from range. Chill increases CD on skill so your condition clearing is less often available and your hard hitting skills will have insane CDs. And weakness which is almost a 50% dmg cut to power builds. Fear as form of CC to stop the damage on you aswel. Just combine all of these and you have a harmless sheep.

4. Not only do condition clearing have longer cooldowns than condition spam skills, they often have longer cast times aswel. So a full condi cleanse that takes you a few skills will interrupt the time you can apply pressure on the enemy. So he can heal back up or has an easier time spamming condis. Stunbreakers or stability is always instant, making regular CC much weaker than chill/cripple/immobilize.

5. The amount of conditions that deal damage is to high aswel. Poison/ confusion/ burn/ torment/ bleeds/ fear (only necro and that ain’t bad). Not only deal they damage, but a lot of dmg aswel. 10 bleeds alone deal 1.3-1.4k/s, burn 800/s, poison 350/s, 5 stacks of torment 1.2k/s (while running). That is way more damage per second than my power builds can do if I fight an opponent that dodges well. And don’t forget all of these are applied from a distance.

6. How easy conditions are applied is rediculous, a well played necro can burry the damaging ones too making sure they wont get removed. Some dangerous skills have pretty much no warning to when they are cast, barely a visual queue, instant and often are unblockable aswel. I mean how much easier do you want to make it? Necro marks for example, they are all the same. Which one do you have to dodge?

7. The amount of conditions is getting rediculous. There are 12! conditions in this game, who brings enough condi clearing for 12? Only a few skills do a full condition clearing and they have long cooldowns. And most classes relying on conditions can almost apply each and everyone of them. Definitely necros.

8. The duration is sometimes completely out of hand. 35s of chill? 1min+ of bleeds? kitten of poison? 1min on cripple? 20s of torment? I get that they have to have a decent duration or they are not worth it to be cleansed off, but conditions as dangerous as chill shouldn’t be able to be stacked for 30s+.

9. The speed at which conditions are applied, a condi burst necro/engi/thief can literally come close to the burst speed of a full zerker thief in damage. And the thief is done after 2s, conditions only get worse and tick harder. I have literally seen 20k health dissapear in under 4s by conditions. Conditions should take more time to apply.

Combine all of this and you’ll notice how bad conditions are for small scale combat. Conditions are the reason to why people join the zerg. They have too many advantages and not enough downsides.

Things to improve conditions for small scale:
1. Remove the damage factor from poison and slowing effect from chill and endurance reduction of weakness. So only 1 effect/condition unless traited into it.

2. Lower the damage on torment by like 33%, I mean come on. I have seen elementalists and thiefs die by just impale, nothing more. And that is 5 stacks of torment. You insta die if you have 25 torment stacks on you.

3. Reduce the duration of chill on some skills, make them gear/trait towards it for longer duration.

This is just my 2cent, but conditions NEEEED to be fixed as soon as possible!

glaphen.5230:

As I already said who is gonna sit there inside wells while being auto attacked. Power can do more damage but it is far harder to pull off in 99% of PvP situations.

power skill hit harder to compensate for that.
a power necro does have access to immobilize/chill/cripple so they can get most of their damage off is played correctly and not just oh ill place a well here and wish for the best.

MiLkZz.4789:

snip

All of these issues have already been discussed, debunked, and proven wrong in this thread alone. Please try again.

Kravick.4906:

MiLkZz.4789:

snip

All of these issues have already been discussed, debunked, and proven wrong in this thread alone. Please try again.

I read the thread and I haven’t seen them been proven wrong. Please try again.
It is the combination of things that makes them OP, just not 1 of the 9 points I listed.

Kravick.4906:

MiLkZz.4789:

snip

All of these issues have already been discussed, debunked, and proven wrong in this thread alone. Please try again.

Yea he has a point with impale but that is just a problem with impale.

Dark Pact has a 1 second cast time and chill still lets you walk. You can also dodge while chilled and even if the well is in the center of you it will take you to the outer edge, if you have no mobility skills.

For most classes I play, this game has indeed turned into condition management online. Watching your own and enemy condis takes more attention than actually fighting

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Azukas.1426:

Sons.5493:

Azukas.1426:

Pure condi builds take precious time to get their killswhich result in having to get dem stacks back up.

Nope, i’d even dare to say some of the burst cond builds out there have more burst than some power builds.

I haven’t seen it yet, but I will readily admit that my playtime is rather limited to most on here though.

He is correct, but only because not all power builds are meant to burst. Some are intended for sustained damage (such as any necro Power build).

However, compare any condi burst to any power burst, and the power build blows conditions out of the water like Mythbusters blows up trucks.

well that is what I was getting at with my initial post. I’m used to different lingo from other games and I ended up not explaining myself properly, thanks.

MiLkZz.4789:

Kravick.4906:

MiLkZz.4789:

snip

All of these issues have already been discussed, debunked, and proven wrong in this thread alone. Please try again.

I read the thread and I haven’t seen them been proven wrong. Please try again.
It is the combination of things that makes them OP, just not 1 of the 9 points I listed.

Its been proven several times. Conditions have 3 stats just like power does, just you and a few others just seem to ignore the importance of precision. There have been two different comparison tests shown in this thread that soldiers beats dire, proving that power beats conditions in raw damage. But you, and a few others, just ignore them so you can willfully plug your ears. It has been mentioned that condition damage has a physical cap in terms of how much actual damage it can do because of the bleed cap. A condition build will do about 3k DPS. Power builds start at around 4-5k DPS and can be pushed higher with burst damage builds. A “burst” condition build still only does about… 3k DPS. Cause you know, those bleed caps.

It doesn’t matter what proof we provide, you’ll just ignore it. Meanwhile, you, and people like you, do nothing to try and prove your points. You just kick and scream hoping to get your way. At this point, why should we even bother? Nothing we do will ever be good enough for you.

glaphen.5230:

Dark Pact has a 1 second cast time and chill still lets you walk. You can also dodge while chilled and even if the well is in the center of you it will take you to the outer edge, if you have no mobility skills.

Yep, there it is. “It doesn’t work because X”. It doesn’t work that way in practice, however. Its easy enough to bait dodges and then stick the Dark Pact. This is what separates the good players and the bad players.

Kravick.4906:

MiLkZz.4789:

Kravick.4906:

MiLkZz.4789:

snip

All of these issues have already been discussed, debunked, and proven wrong in this thread alone. Please try again.

I read the thread and I haven’t seen them been proven wrong. Please try again.
It is the combination of things that makes them OP, just not 1 of the 9 points I listed.

Its been proven several times. Conditions have 3 stats just like power does, just you and a few others just seem to ignore the importance of precision. There have been two different comparison tests shown in this thread that soldiers beats dire, proving that power beats conditions in raw damage. But you, and a few others, just ignore them so you can willfully plug your ears. It has been mentioned that condition damage has a physical cap in terms of how much actual damage it can do because of the bleed cap. A condition build will do about 3k DPS. Power builds start at around 4-5k DPS and can be pushed higher with burst damage builds. A “burst” condition build still only does about… 3k DPS. Cause you know, those bleed caps.

It doesn’t matter what proof we provide, you’ll just ignore it. Meanwhile, you, and people like you, do nothing to try and prove your points. You just kick and scream hoping to get your way. At this point, why should we even bother? Nothing we do will ever be good enough for you.

But as said very earlier in this thread they only have one stat, condition damage. Precision is a fluff stat and condition duration is only on one weapon type. As kittening always I’m still waiting for any of these videos and the only video posted is about unrealistic situations.

glaphen.5230:

But as said very earlier in this thread they only have one stat, condition damage. Precision is a fluff stat and condition duration is only on one weapon type. As kittening always I’m still waiting for any of these videos and the only video posted is about unrealistic situations.

Precision isn’t a fluff stat for condition users. There is no way a condi user is going to be doing even 3k DPS without precision. Those proc effects make up pretty decent chunk of their damage. Just because you choose to ignore it doesn’t mean its “fluff”.

Kravick.4906:

glaphen.5230:

But as said very earlier in this thread they only have one stat, condition damage. Precision is a fluff stat and condition duration is only on one weapon type. As kittening always I’m still waiting for any of these videos and the only video posted is about unrealistic situations.

Precision isn’t a fluff stat for condition users. There is no way a condi user is going to be doing even 3k DPS without precision. Those proc effects make up pretty decent chunk of their damage. Just because you choose to ignore it doesn’t mean its “fluff”.

The bleeds are a whole 100 dps more with Rabid at the cost of a chunk of defensive stats.

Kravick.4906:

MiLkZz.4789:

Kravick.4906:

MiLkZz.4789:

snip

All of these issues have already been discussed, debunked, and proven wrong in this thread alone. Please try again.

I read the thread and I haven’t seen them been proven wrong. Please try again.
It is the combination of things that makes them OP, just not 1 of the 9 points I listed.

Its been proven several times. Conditions have 3 stats just like power does, just you and a few others just seem to ignore the importance of precision. There have been two different comparison tests shown in this thread that soldiers beats dire, proving that power beats conditions in raw damage. But you, and a few others, just ignore them so you can willfully plug your ears. It has been mentioned that condition damage has a physical cap in terms of how much actual damage it can do because of the bleed cap. A condition build will do about 3k DPS. Power builds start at around 4-5k DPS and can be pushed higher with burst damage builds. A “burst” condition build still only does about… 3k DPS. Cause you know, those bleed caps.

It doesn’t matter what proof we provide, you’ll just ignore it. Meanwhile, you, and people like you, do nothing to try and prove your points. You just kick and scream hoping to get your way. At this point, why should we even bother? Nothing we do will ever be good enough for you.

You are only looking at like 3 of the 9 points, as I said it is the COMBINATION of things that makes them OP. And why only take bleed damage when burn alone can do 1k+dmg/s? And please? Comparing PVT to Dire? PVT makes you tanky and makes you hit like a wet noodle, no power build runs full PVT in WvW because you wont be able to kill anything. And I am not underestimating the importance of precision, mesmer and engi needs precision. A necro doesn’t really need it. And I am looking more at the rabid set which DOES give precision. Your tests are set in unrealistic environments, I can make tests aswel showing how conditions pull more DPS than full zerker damage. Let alone that attacks dealt by power builds are close combat (130range) and easy to dodge.

Yes conditions aren’t good in PvE because of the cap, that has said before and nobody denies it, but if you hit 25 bleeds on you in WvW, you can be sure that you are dead.

Conditions are DOTS, they are never meant to burst even close to what power builds can.

You have your eyes closed and focus on the wrong things, combine the 9 points I have given you and that power build with PVT will hit 300 on your full dire necro while you are completely melting him with your way superior damage. Don’t forget conditions debuff your enemies damage aswel. And that is if that PVT build can reach you with all the CC thrown at him.

Full PVT vs Full Dire is a pretty fair comparison.

Does anyone have any solid numbers on those two?

Of course PVT would be better for PvD and Zerg…

Sube Dai.8496:

Full PVT vs Full Dire is a pretty fair comparison.

Does anyone have any solid numbers on those two?

Of course PVT would be better for PvD and Zerg…

Half the people in this thread do, but they don’t know how to post them.

Glaphen, Harper, and MiLkZz. got beat by a fight 3v1 once time by an engineer, so they demanded this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c

glaphen.5230:

Kravick.4906:

glaphen.5230:

But as said very earlier in this thread they only have one stat, condition damage. Precision is a fluff stat and condition duration is only on one weapon type. As kittening always I’m still waiting for any of these videos and the only video posted is about unrealistic situations.

Precision isn’t a fluff stat for condition users. There is no way a condi user is going to be doing even 3k DPS without precision. Those proc effects make up pretty decent chunk of their damage. Just because you choose to ignore it doesn’t mean its “fluff”.

The bleeds are a whole 100 dps more with Rabid at the cost of a chunk of defensive stats.

I just happen to be on my engineer. Sharpshooter is 3s bleed. 33% proc chance on crit. 140 per bleed. that is 420 damage. But you claim we can be at base crit of 4% and do the same damage. In a 30/30/x/x/x build with 100% condition duration, that is 840 damage. But you also claim condition duration is a stat we do not need.

Crit chances are also key for our vigor. Just as much as direct damage.

Vigorous Precision — Gain vigor when you deliver a critical hit.
Empowering Might — You and nearby allies gain might when you land a critical hit.
Furious Speed — You have a chance to gain swiftness on critical hits.
Precise Strikes — Chance to cause bleeding on critical hits.
Rending Strikes — You have a chance to cause vulnerability on critical hits.
Forceful Greatsword — Gain might on a critical hit with a greatsword or spear. Reduces recharge on greatsword and spear skills.
Incendiary Powder — Critical hits inflict burning.
Sharpshooter — Critical hits have a chance to cause bleeding.
Infused Precision — You have a chance to gain swiftness on critical hits.
Go for the Eyes — Critical hits with rifles have a chance to inflict blindness.
Precise Sights — You have a chance to cause vulnerability on critical hits
Companion’s Might — Critical hits grant might to your pet.
Sharpened Edges — Chance to cause bleeding on critical hits.
Ankle Shots — Critical hits with a pistol have a chance to cripple foes.
Sundering Strikes — Critical hits have a chance to cause vulnerability.
Critical Haste — You have a chance to gain quickness on a critical hit.
Burning Precision — Critical hits have a chance to cause burning.
Weak Spot — Chance to cause vulnerability on critical hits.
Soothing Wave — Gain regeneration when critically hit.
Arcane Precision — Skills have a chance to apply a condition on critical hits.
Renewing Stamina — Gain vigor when you deliver a critical hit.
Critical Infusion — Gain vigor when delivering a critical hit.
Barbed Precision — Critical hits have a chance to cause bleeding.
Reaper’s Precision — You have a chance to gain life force on critical hits.
Withering Precision — Apply weakness on critical hits.
Vampiric Precision — Siphon health whenever you critical hit.

Sigil of Blood — chance to cause life stealing
Sigil of Earth — chance to cause Bleeding.png Bleeding
Sigil of Frailty — chance to cause Vulnerability.png Vulnerability
Sigil of Ice — chance to cause Chilled.png Chilled
Sigil of Rage — chance to gain Quickness.png Quickness
Sigil of Strength — chance to gain Might.png Might
Sigil of Nullification — chance to remove a boon
Sigil Of Torment —- Chance to apply torment.

All of these need crits to apply. I believe it was GK who posted the math that 40% crit chance increases condition damage output by 27%…. If you feel that isn’t a damage increase, then i guess there is not reasoning with you.

MiLkZz.4789:

3. . Conditions like cripple and chill will cut the mobility and conditions are always spammed from range.

My bomb engineer says Hi. He also feels you are not very aware of how conditions work.

glaphen.5230:

Kravick.4906:

glaphen.5230:

But as said very earlier in this thread they only have one stat, condition damage. Precision is a fluff stat and condition duration is only on one weapon type. As kittening always I’m still waiting for any of these videos and the only video posted is about unrealistic situations.

Precision isn’t a fluff stat for condition users. There is no way a condi user is going to be doing even 3k DPS without precision. Those proc effects make up pretty decent chunk of their damage. Just because you choose to ignore it doesn’t mean its “fluff”.

The bleeds are a whole 100 dps more with Rabid at the cost of a chunk of defensive stats.

Its not just one bleed. There are multiple bleed procs that occur. Especially if you take Sigil of Earth. But that doesn’t matter, cause you have all the answers, apparently.

Kravick.4906:

glaphen.5230:

Kravick.4906:

glaphen.5230:

But as said very earlier in this thread they only have one stat, condition damage. Precision is a fluff stat and condition duration is only on one weapon type. As kittening always I’m still waiting for any of these videos and the only video posted is about unrealistic situations.

Precision isn’t a fluff stat for condition users. There is no way a condi user is going to be doing even 3k DPS without precision. Those proc effects make up pretty decent chunk of their damage. Just because you choose to ignore it doesn’t mean its “fluff”.

The bleeds are a whole 100 dps more with Rabid at the cost of a chunk of defensive stats.

Its not just one bleed. There are multiple bleed procs that occur. Especially if you take Sigil of Earth. But that doesn’t matter, cause you have all the answers, apparently.

Sigil of Geomancy does nearly the same thing but in an AoE and does physical damage on proc. With full rabid you will get less than 1/3 of your hits giving that 5 second bleed because of the 2 second cooldown.

glaphen.5230:

As I said when you posted this moronic list last time, NO ONE USES THESE TRAITS OR SIGILS.

And there went any credibility you had. Here, I’ll show you why you’re wrong:

Empowering Might — You and nearby allies gain might when you land a critical hit.
Precise Strikes — Chance to cause bleeding on critical hits.
Rending Strikes — You have a chance to cause vulnerability on critical hits.
Incendiary Powder — Critical hits inflict burning.
Sharpshooter — Critical hits have a chance to cause bleeding.
Go for the Eyes — Critical hits with rifles have a chance to inflict blindness.
Precise Sights — You have a chance to cause vulnerability on critical hits
Companion’s Might — Critical hits grant might to your pet.
Sharpened Edges — Chance to cause bleeding on critical hits.
Sundering Strikes — Critical hits have a chance to cause vulnerability.
Burning Precision — Critical hits have a chance to cause burning.
Weak Spot — Chance to cause vulnerability on critical hits.
Arcane Precision — Skills have a chance to apply a condition on critical hits.
Barbed Precision — Critical hits have a chance to cause bleeding.
Withering Precision — Apply weakness on critical hits.

Sigil of Earth — chance to cause Bleeding
Sigil Of Torment —- Chance to apply torment.

All of these are great benefit to condition builds. Even the Vulnerability stacking ones as it makes covering so much easier. Now, if we remove the Might stacking traits, those that apply vulnerability, and the crap that is Withering Precision, we are still left with 7 traits and 2 sigils that supposedly “nobody uses in a condition build” and require Precision. In fact, all of those remaining items (and some that were removed from the list) are extremely common in condition builds.

glaphen.5230:

Sigil of Geomancy does nearly the same thing but in an AoE and does physical damage on proc. With full rabid you will get less than 1/3 of your hits giving that 5 second bleed because of the 2 second cooldown.

Earth is obviously of less use on a thief build, but not so for the other classes with proc on crit effects. Keep graspin’ at those straws, though. Keep graspin’.

MiLkZz.4789:

Your tests are set in unrealistic environments, I can make tests aswel showing how conditions pull more DPS than full zerker damage.

Please share! I’m not being being funny but generally interested in see this one.

Really anyone can skew tests if they like but your example of zerker out dpsing condi everyone would know it is rigged (if it is even possible).

Here it is debatable about dire v soldier(actually its not but people keep making variables).

Example is tim’s quoted post it looks solid damage forumula’s etc. Your zerk losing to a condition build in a DPS race would only fool people not familiar with damage foruma, crit chance, crit damage.

Empowering Might- critical Condition Guardian meta time baby.
Precise Strikes- Tell me about all those non Dire condition Warriors.
Rending Strikes- Read above
Incendiary Powder- Rely on the 10% you get from 10 points in Firearms
Sharpshooter- You are right you can build around this for extra damage
Go for the Eyes- Condition Rifle Engineer meta
Precise Sights- I’ll be sure to take that over pistol cooldowns
Companion’s Might- Amazing pet damage boost would ignore again
Sharpened Edges- A lot better of a trait for Rangers than Necromancers
Sundering Strikes- Condition crit Thieves man
Burning Precision- Lol Fire Magic for critical burning
Weak Spot- Grandmaster in the physical crit line for vulnerability on crits
Arcane Precision- Am I seriously gonna reply to this? No
Barbed Precision- Same useless trait I’ve said multiple times in this thread
Withering Precision- Lol 30 points in Curses

Sigil of Earth- Sigil of Geomancy
Sigil Of Torment- Really?

Sigil of Torment: already has its own cooldown that does not interfere with Sigil of Earth. Has since its release.

Yes. It gets used. A lot.

Ah did not know that, still doesn’t make it worth using precision for on most classes.

glaphen.5230:

Ah did not know that, still doesn’t make it worth using precision for on most classes.

Sounds like you overvalue vitality?

oZii.2864:

glaphen.5230:

Ah did not know that, still doesn’t make it worth using precision for on most classes.

Sounds like you overvalue vitality?

Nope, I think vitality is the worst stat for most classes, doesn’t really make precision useful for most condition builds either way.

glaphen.5230:

oZii.2864:

glaphen.5230:

Ah did not know that, still doesn’t make it worth using precision for on most classes.

Sounds like you overvalue vitality?

Nope, I think vitality is the worst stat for most classes, doesn’t really make precision useful for most condition builds either way.

That, as we say, is a personal opinion. People that are good at mathfu have already shown how valuable it is as a DPS increase to condition builds. Every class, except thief, have condition builds where precision greatly benefits and increases the overall damage by a decent margin.

glaphen.5230:

Ah did not know that, still doesn’t make it worth using precision for on most classes.

Every other post you make is followed up by an “Ah did not know that” or someone explaining you were mistaken. Why do you keep posting about things you are unknowledgable about? As well, how do you know its value for most professions, after you previously admitted you do not even have experience with Most professions??

In my experience, it is a very very common sigil In WvW condi builds. it is also very much a reason to raise precisions, because it only has a 30% chance to proc on crit. It last 7s and is AoE. Would you like me to explain how much damage that is? Or how torment works sir?

glaphen.5230:

Nope, I think vitality is the worst stat for most classes, doesn’t really make precision useful for most condition builds either way.

Odd, as vitality is known as the best stat to counter conditions. As they ignore toughness, vitality adds the ability to absorbe the damage. As well its absorption allows for greater use and value of condition removal.

And as a very wise man already posted

Maskaganda.2043:

coglin won this thread.

Kravick.4906:

glaphen.5230:

oZii.2864:

glaphen.5230:

Ah did not know that, still doesn’t make it worth using precision for on most classes.

Sounds like you overvalue vitality?

Nope, I think vitality is the worst stat for most classes, doesn’t really make precision useful for most condition builds either way.

That, as we say, is a personal opinion. People that are good at mathfu have already shown how valuable it is as a DPS increase to condition builds. Every class, except thief, have condition builds where precision greatly benefits and increases the overall damage by a decent margin.

I don’t find 400 luck based dps at most to be decent, only Engineer, Warrior and Mesmer get more than that and Engineer/Warrior scales far better with defensive stats.

On necros, the typical 30/20/0/0/20 Dhuumfire build in rabid gear has a 46% crit chance in Exotic gear (Rabid crests in jewelry) and Runes of the Undead. This is not optimal gear, but it is decent and fairly cheap to aquire, so it’s reasonable to work from. Also added is a Master Tuning Crystal and a Koi Cake (again, fairly cheap). Running Hemophilia (because there aren’t many other good options at Adept Master in Curses), the trait Barbed Precision alone adds an average of 113.5464 damage to every attack. That one trait alone is a 13% increase in a condition necro’s auto-attack damage.

For comparison, a full Exotic Dire build (running exquisite Carrion gems) with Runes of Scavenging (same trait and food setup) has a 14% crit chance. Despite having higher condition damage (a difference of ~30 on each bleed from the auto attack), it only scores an average of 35.6664 extra damage per attack from Barbed Precision. That’s an average of ~80 damage per attack lost from investing into Dire gear instead of Rabid, and we haven’t even included the crit damage multiplier, nor any sigils or other traits. Barbed Precision is only that low because of its exceedingly short bleed duration, but it is still a very noticeable DPS increase on its own.

I say take every class with a viable condition build and viable power build, put them in dire/soldier gear, and have them fight.

You don’t need mathematics to know that dire>soldier in roaming. Who the hell roams in full soldier gear really?

And people talking about precision .... seriously? Precision on a condition build is nowhere even close to mandatory then it is for a power build that utilizes crit damage. A power build NEEDS precision and NEEDS crit damage to be successful in roaming and 1v1. Even in zerg fights, you still need some degree of precision and crit damage otherwise your hits just really suck.

For condition builds, you have a choice of a tradeoff, less tankiness for slightly more damage with rabid. Or more tankiness with slightly less damage with dire gear. Decent access to fury also significantly lessens the burden of building some precision.

For power builds you need the precision and crit damage. You just aren’t viable without it.

coglin.1867:

glaphen.5230:

Ah did not know that, still doesn’t make it worth using precision for on most classes.

Every other post you make is followed up by an “Ah did not know that” or someone explaining you were mistaken. Why do you keep posting about things you are unknowledgable about? As well, how do you know its value for most professions, after you previously admitted you do not even have experience with Most professions??

In my experience, it is a very very common sigil In WvW condi builds. it is also very much a reason to raise precisions, because it only has a 30% chance to proc on crit. It last 7s and is AoE. Would you like me to explain how much damage that is? Or how torment works sir?

glaphen.5230:

Nope, I think vitality is the worst stat for most classes, doesn’t really make precision useful for most condition builds either way.

Odd, as vitality is known as the best stat to counter conditions. As they ignore toughness, vitality adds the ability to absorbe the damage. As well its absorption allows for greater use and value of condition removal.

And as a very wise man already posted

Maskaganda.2043:

coglin won this thread.

Amazing how you get when I didn’t know one thing about a new sigil that still isn’t good enough to sacrifice using precision for on most builds and after the next patch all sigils will work like it anyways. The guy supporting you plays a condition build as well, how surprising! Also vitality offers no sustain so its a soft counter to everything for the first few seconds of a fight.

glaphen.5230:

Amazing how you get when I didn’t know one thing about a new sigil that still isn’t good enough to sacrifice using precision for on most builds and after the next patch all sigils will work like it anyways. The guy supporting you plays a condition build as well, how surprising! Also vitality offers no sustain so its a soft counter to everything for the first few seconds of a fight.

Clueless. Completely, and utterly clueless.

There is no point in debating with a person who wishes to remain ignorant.

Kravick.4906:

glaphen.5230:

Amazing how you get when I didn’t know one thing about a new sigil that still isn’t good enough to sacrifice using precision for on most builds and after the next patch all sigils will work like it anyways. The guy supporting you plays a condition build as well, how surprising! Also vitality offers no sustain so its a soft counter to everything for the first few seconds of a fight.

Clueless. Completely, and utterly clueless.

There is no point in debating with a person who wishes to remain ignorant.

Teach me please, what do I lack master.

killahmayne.9518:

For power builds you need the precision and crit damage. You just aren’t viable without it.

Well it remains to be seen. I would not be surprised if a PVT with good condition removal can beat a CVT.

glaphen.5230:

Kravick.4906:

glaphen.5230:

Amazing how you get when I didn’t know one thing about a new sigil that still isn’t good enough to sacrifice using precision for on most builds and after the next patch all sigils will work like it anyways. The guy supporting you plays a condition build as well, how surprising! Also vitality offers no sustain so its a soft counter to everything for the first few seconds of a fight.

Clueless. Completely, and utterly clueless.

There is no point in debating with a person who wishes to remain ignorant.

Teach me please, what do I lack master.

Can’t teach those that refuse to learn.

Overkillengine.6084:

glaphen.5230:

Kravick.4906:

glaphen.5230:

Amazing how you get when I didn’t know one thing about a new sigil that still isn’t good enough to sacrifice using precision for on most builds and after the next patch all sigils will work like it anyways. The guy supporting you plays a condition build as well, how surprising! Also vitality offers no sustain so its a soft counter to everything for the first few seconds of a fight.

Clueless. Completely, and utterly clueless.

There is no point in debating with a person who wishes to remain ignorant.

Teach me please, what do I lack master.

Can’t teach those that refuse to learn.

Yeah I agree.

MiLkZz.4789:

Condis are broken and nobody can deny it. They are OP when roaming with less than 5 people and they are UP in zerg fights. It wont be easy to fix them. To be completely honest, I don’t know how to fix them either. Well atleast not for zerg fights as making them viable would make them immediately broken.

Why are condis OP?
1. The stats, as been said before only 2 stats are important. Condition damage and duration. Duration ain’t even so important tho, you just get it from the food anyway. Precision is only important for certain classes up to a certain point. But good that you can get it all on the rabid set. Dire is even worse for like necros. They don’t really need precision and can go rediculously tanky while still pumping out max damage.

2. Some conditions have too many effects. Poison deals damage AND cuts your healing, Chill increases cooldown on skills AND reduces your mobility with -66% (more than cripple…) AND often the skill has a dmg factor to it aswel. Weakness reduces your endurance regeneration by A LOT AND cuts your dmg almost in half.

3. Conditions are a passive form of defense, only making the armor stats of the condition spammer more valuable. Conditions like cripple and chill will cut the mobility and conditions are always spammed from range. Chill increases CD on skill so your condition clearing is less often available and your hard hitting skills will have insane CDs. And weakness which is almost a 50% dmg cut to power builds. Fear as form of CC to stop the damage on you aswel. Just combine all of these and you have a harmless sheep.

4. Not only do condition clearing have longer cooldowns than condition spam skills, they often have longer cast times aswel. So a full condi cleanse that takes you a few skills will interrupt the time you can apply pressure on the enemy. So he can heal back up or has an easier time spamming condis. Stunbreakers or stability is always instant, making regular CC much weaker than chill/cripple/immobilize.

5. The amount of conditions that deal damage is to high aswel. Poison/ confusion/ burn/ torment/ bleeds/ fear (only necro and that ain’t bad). Not only deal they damage, but a lot of dmg aswel. 10 bleeds alone deal 1.3-1.4k/s, burn 800/s, poison 350/s, 5 stacks of torment 1.2k/s (while running). That is way more damage per second than my power builds can do if I fight an opponent that dodges well. And don’t forget all of these are applied from a distance.

6. How easy conditions are applied is rediculous, a well played necro can burry the damaging ones too making sure they wont get removed. Some dangerous skills have pretty much no warning to when they are cast, barely a visual queue, instant and often are unblockable aswel. I mean how much easier do you want to make it? Necro marks for example, they are all the same. Which one do you have to dodge?

7. The amount of conditions is getting rediculous. There are 12! conditions in this game, who brings enough condi clearing for 12? Only a few skills do a full condition clearing and they have long cooldowns. And most classes relying on conditions can almost apply each and everyone of them. Definitely necros.

8. The duration is sometimes completely out of hand. 35s of chill? 1min+ of bleeds? kitten of poison? 1min on cripple? 20s of torment? I get that they have to have a decent duration or they are not worth it to be cleansed off, but conditions as dangerous as chill shouldn’t be able to be stacked for 30s+.

9. The speed at which conditions are applied, a condi burst necro/engi/thief can literally come close to the burst speed of a full zerker thief in damage. And the thief is done after 2s, conditions only get worse and tick harder. I have literally seen 20k health dissapear in under 4s by conditions. Conditions should take more time to apply.

Combine all of this and you’ll notice how bad conditions are for small scale combat. Conditions are the reason to why people join the zerg. They have too many advantages and not enough downsides

Beat me to it. I love how everyone is completely ignoring this post. Makes sense because the post is so true. Conditions are just way too easy to apply. It doesn’t matter if soldiers is better than dire or w/e. It’s the fact that it’s a lot more difficult to apply direct damage than conditions as well as the fact that you can spec defensively with it. 2 huge advantages. I mean how do you dodge a necro mark? Just guess? Which mark should you dodge and how do you know the difference? There are so many ways to apply conditions as well. I mean the post speaks for itself

Cush.4063:

MiLkZz.4789:

Condis are broken and nobody can deny it. They are OP when roaming with less than 5 people and they are UP in zerg fights. It wont be easy to fix them. To be completely honest, I don’t know how to fix them either. Well atleast not for zerg fights as making them viable would make them immediately broken.

Why are condis OP?
1. The stats, as been said before only 2 stats are important. Condition damage and duration. Duration ain’t even so important tho, you just get it from the food anyway. Precision is only important for certain classes up to a certain point. But good that you can get it all on the rabid set. Dire is even worse for like necros. They don’t really need precision and can go rediculously tanky while still pumping out max damage.

2. Some conditions have too many effects. Poison deals damage AND cuts your healing, Chill increases cooldown on skills AND reduces your mobility with -66% (more than cripple…) AND often the skill has a dmg factor to it aswel. Weakness reduces your endurance regeneration by A LOT AND cuts your dmg almost in half.

3. Conditions are a passive form of defense, only making the armor stats of the condition spammer more valuable. Conditions like cripple and chill will cut the mobility and conditions are always spammed from range. Chill increases CD on skill so your condition clearing is less often available and your hard hitting skills will have insane CDs. And weakness which is almost a 50% dmg cut to power builds. Fear as form of CC to stop the damage on you aswel. Just combine all of these and you have a harmless sheep.

4. Not only do condition clearing have longer cooldowns than condition spam skills, they often have longer cast times aswel. So a full condi cleanse that takes you a few skills will interrupt the time you can apply pressure on the enemy. So he can heal back up or has an easier time spamming condis. Stunbreakers or stability is always instant, making regular CC much weaker than chill/cripple/immobilize.

5. The amount of conditions that deal damage is to high aswel. Poison/ confusion/ burn/ torment/ bleeds/ fear (only necro and that ain’t bad). Not only deal they damage, but a lot of dmg aswel. 10 bleeds alone deal 1.3-1.4k/s, burn 800/s, poison 350/s, 5 stacks of torment 1.2k/s (while running). That is way more damage per second than my power builds can do if I fight an opponent that dodges well. And don’t forget all of these are applied from a distance.

6. How easy conditions are applied is rediculous, a well played necro can burry the damaging ones too making sure they wont get removed. Some dangerous skills have pretty much no warning to when they are cast, barely a visual queue, instant and often are unblockable aswel. I mean how much easier do you want to make it? Necro marks for example, they are all the same. Which one do you have to dodge?

7. The amount of conditions is getting rediculous. There are 12! conditions in this game, who brings enough condi clearing for 12? Only a few skills do a full condition clearing and they have long cooldowns. And most classes relying on conditions can almost apply each and everyone of them. Definitely necros.

8. The duration is sometimes completely out of hand. 35s of chill? 1min+ of bleeds? kitten of poison? 1min on cripple? 20s of torment? I get that they have to have a decent duration or they are not worth it to be cleansed off, but conditions as dangerous as chill shouldn’t be able to be stacked for 30s+.

9. The speed at which conditions are applied, a condi burst necro/engi/thief can literally come close to the burst speed of a full zerker thief in damage. And the thief is done after 2s, conditions only get worse and tick harder. I have literally seen 20k health dissapear in under 4s by conditions. Conditions should take more time to apply.

Combine all of this and you’ll notice how bad conditions are for small scale combat. Conditions are the reason to why people join the zerg. They have too many advantages and not enough downsides

Beat me to it. I love how everyone is completely ignoring this post. Makes sense because the post is so true. Conditions are just way too easy to apply. It doesn’t matter if soldiers is better than dire or w/e. It’s the fact that it’s a lot more difficult to apply direct damage than conditions as well as the fact that you can spec defensively with it. 2 huge advantages. I mean how do you dodge a necro mark? Just guess? Which mark should you dodge and how do you know the difference? There are so many ways to apply conditions as well. I mean the post speaks for itself

Marks are the worst possible example you could have picked.

They have both a power and condition damage component and as such both damage types are equally hard to dodge.

Cush.4063:

It’s the fact that it’s a lot more difficult to apply direct damage than conditions as well as the fact that you can spec defensively with it.

Well not necessarily. If you run Melandru+Lemongrass a lot of those durations are really short. Plus all of the other condition removal you can pack. That is what I want to see. A full PVT with Melandru+Lemongrass VS a CVT with whatever food they want.

I’m not convinced the CVT set will win.

Cush.4063:

Beat me to it. I love how everyone is completely ignoring this post. Makes sense because the post is so true.

Except it isn’t. Every single point can, and has been, proven to either be false or a non-issue.

Conditions are just way too easy to apply.

So is Direct Damage, but you aren’t complaining about that for some reason.

It doesn’t matter if soldiers is better than dire or w/e. It’s the fact that it’s a lot more difficult to apply direct damage than conditions as well as the fact that you can spec defensively with it.

Funny, you can spec just as defensively as a Power build and still out-do conditions on the damage front.

I mean how do you dodge a necro mark?

Double-tap a movement key by default.

Just guess? Which mark should you dodge and how do you know the difference?

You should dodge Reaper’s Mark and it has a very distinct animation. Has had it for the last 6 months, so if you still think it’s difficult to tell, frankly, you need to get your eyes checked. Or you’re fighting Asura, but they are an issue regardless of class or build.

There are so many ways to apply conditions as well. I mean the post speaks for itself

Even more ways to apply direct damage. Post ends up spouting a bunch of opinions, really.

Sube Dai.8496:

killahmayne.9518:

For power builds you need the precision and crit damage. You just aren’t viable without it.

Well it remains to be seen. I would not be surprised if a PVT with good condition removal can beat a CVT.

If it remains to be seen that it will remain to be seen for a long time. A power build with full soldiers hits really weak. Unless you are constantly auto-attacking your target every second then yes it will outdps and beat a condi build with dire gear.

With bleeds, burns and poison you can easily do 1K a second to your target though it takes time to ramp up. This discounts other conditions such as confusion and torment. Power builds with soldier’s gear can’t do that, especially against a high toughness opponent. Condition builds ignore toughness so the only thing in the way is condition removal and - condition duration. In most cases it is impossible for condition removal and -condition duration to outpace the amount of conditions put on you. However, it is easy for a class like a Necro or an Engi to reach 70% condition duration.

How a class with soldier’s gear outdamages a class in dire gear in a practical and realistic situation is beyond my comprehension. Because it simply isn’t true. Maybe against PvE mobs, but certainly not against people with a brain not to stand there and take auto-attacks constantly.

There is a reason why nobody would be scared of a Mesmer in full PVT gear, if you see one for that matter, over a mesmer that is full Dire, which you do see a bit. People say dodge but you can’t possibly dodge all winds of chaos bouncing around at you, clones dieing and inflicting conditions while duelists are shooting you at the same time with that mesmer using chaos armor and casting chaos storm on top of your head. People just would rather stick to mathematic calculations and theorycrafting and refuse to see what actually happens in a realistic situation. Theoretically an attack can do 10 billion damage but if it has no chance of landing it does zero damage.

You forgot to add that condition bunkers are very enjoyable to play against.

killahmayne.9518:

How a class with soldier’s gear outdamages a class in dire gear in a practical and realistic situation is beyond my comprehension. Because it simply isn’t true. Maybe against PvE mobs, but certainly not against people with a brain not to stand there and take auto-attacks constantly.

It’s the thing because wvw-ers love to stay in the range for the full duration of 100b which makes power builds stronger I guess. And they say mobs should have better AI.

killahmayne.9518:

There is a reason why nobody would be scared of a Mesmer in full PVT gear, if you see one for that matter, over a mesmer that is full Dire, which you do see a bit. People say dodge but you can’t possibly dodge all winds of chaos bouncing around at you, clones dieing and inflicting conditions while duelists are shooting you at the same time with that mesmer using chaos armor and casting chaos storm on top of your head. People just would rather stick to mathematic calculations and theorycrafting and refuse to see what actually happens in a realistic situation. Theoretically an attack can do 10 billion damage but if it has no chance of landing it does zero damage.

You don’t see full dire mesmers because of a Trait called Sharper images. If you see a full dire mesmer then he did it terribly wrong. I think you think you see full dire mesmers cause a full dire mesmer is dumb and should never kill anyone.

oZii.2864:

killahmayne.9518:

There is a reason why nobody would be scared of a Mesmer in full PVT gear, if you see one for that matter, over a mesmer that is full Dire, which you do see a bit. People say dodge but you can’t possibly dodge all winds of chaos bouncing around at you, clones dieing and inflicting conditions while duelists are shooting you at the same time with that mesmer using chaos armor and casting chaos storm on top of your head. People just would rather stick to mathematic calculations and theorycrafting and refuse to see what actually happens in a realistic situation. Theoretically an attack can do 10 billion damage but if it has no chance of landing it does zero damage.

You don’t see full dire mesmers because of a Trait called Sharper images. If you see a full dire mesmer then he did it terribly wrong. I think you think you see full dire mesmers cause a full dire mesmer is dumb and should never kill anyone.

Yeah. A mix of Dire/Rabid mesmer is more realistic as they usually get the trait that gives Phantasms Fury.

Rennoko.5731:

Problem with this would be blood is power, and other such examples that bleed for a REALLY long time. Your bar would show you essentially dead even though you were ticking at ~330 per second.

The system would need to look at a window, say 5-10 seconds out, and show your HP bar accordingly with a sliding window.

Alternatively, what if your HP bubble displays a “flow speed”?
Either graphically, via the HP churning and being drained (and you can see the drain speed from how turbulent it is), or via little \/-shaped arrows, more the faster it is being drained.

glaphen.5230:

coglin.1867:

glaphen.5230:

Ah did not know that, still doesn’t make it worth using precision for on most classes.

Every other post you make is followed up by an “Ah did not know that” or someone explaining you were mistaken. Why do you keep posting about things you are unknowledgable about? As well, how do you know its value for most professions, after you previously admitted you do not even have experience with Most professions??

In my experience, it is a very very common sigil In WvW condi builds. it is also very much a reason to raise precisions, because it only has a 30% chance to proc on crit. It last 7s and is AoE. Would you like me to explain how much damage that is? Or how torment works sir?

glaphen.5230:

Nope, I think vitality is the worst stat for most classes, doesn’t really make precision useful for most condition builds either way.

Odd, as vitality is known as the best stat to counter conditions. As they ignore toughness, vitality adds the ability to absorbe the damage. As well its absorption allows for greater use and value of condition removal.

And as a very wise man already posted

Maskaganda.2043:

coglin won this thread.

Amazing how you get when I didn’t know one thing about a new sigil that still isn’t good enough to sacrifice using precision for on most builds and after the next patch all sigils will work like it anyways. The guy supporting you plays a condition build as well, how surprising! Also vitality offers no sustain so its a soft counter to everything for the first few seconds of a fight.

see, you just shot yourself in the face there. In every single engineer vid I ever posted, I have more power than condition damage, even with 25 stacks of corruption. I use mainly carrion, I play whats essencially an hybrid build, however bad some stuff might scale. I’ve tried full dire and full rabid and it was nowhere near as effective for me.

but you just took one look at it and said “conditions, pff” , like every other raging guy that joins my party whining that’s so cheesy I use dire and perplexity, neither of which it’s true.

apart from that I have 7 other classes all but one at level 80 and I roam either solo or in a small group with all of them. only on my necro do I play conditions and even so, rarely, because zerker necro is way more effective in a 5 man roaming team.

if you know what you are doing, conditions are easy to manage and avoid.