(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
Nerf zerker? Really?
If I had to back off occasionally it’ll make it all the more important that I do as much damage as I can as fast as I can. It doesn’t lessen that because I don’t want encounters to last longer. I mean really. After the 10,000th Frozen Maw fight I want it to go as fast as possible.
True, however right now, Berserker-geared people don’t ever need to back off. Thus, their DPS is high all the time. If they did have to back off, then the killing time goes up, bringing Zerker gear more in line with other gear sets.
You do not have to back off, so long as everyone is running the optimal set up and knows exactly what they are doing. Hence why speed run zerk groups are so picky, if the group composition breaks down or the group doesn’t know what it is doing, then it is a fiasco.
Watch an encounter which contains nub zerkers or zerkers mixed within a non optimal pug composition and see how well they do without “backing off”.
If people are talking about open world boss fights, then for the main part that is face roll passive crud regardless as to what gear you are speccing and people should be somewhat pleased others are stacking damage in order to make said boring fights as fast as possible.
If I recall in one of the CDI threads or STOG interview JS said he wants more active and less passive play but I can’t remember if that was in referrance to PVP or PVE. So, if that Dev carries any weight then passive play (read: condi builds) ain’t going to get any better which means nerfing zerker builds.
And Drarnor, the point I was making I’m going to do everything to make the fight go faster meaning being as zerker as I can without having to back off… So, instead of being 100% I will go 90% zerk and make up that 10% by not having to back off. I will find the balance to make sure the fight goes just as fast.
He was referring to pvp, there is no complaint about passive play in pve lol. Passive play refers to: AI in pvp, passive traits like empathic bond and healing signet. Those are just examples.
Passive play does not refer to a build that can take more damage than a zerker. This is just to pve community trying to redefine the meaning of it. In pvp all stat types are or can be viable.
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There really isn’t a reason to nerf Berserker gear. Yes, it’s clearly the best set for experienced dungeon runners who have mastered the content, can time every dodge, and are looking to farm the content for rewards as fast as possible; whatever is the highest damage set-up is going to be that way.
At the same time it is not that big of a boost to damage. If you look at the impact of 100% Berserker gear vs 100% Soldier gear, with everything else the same, you’re getting something like 60% more damage out of a Berserker set – which means that whatever the Berserkers are killing in 10 seconds, a full Soldier group, otherwise identical, should kill in 16 seconds.
Except that isn’t what happens.
The issue isn’t Berserker gear, it’s all the other little optimizations to damage that multiply with each other and keep stacking to a point where it gets stupid. It’s grabbing 4, 5 +% damage traits, the +% damage on weapons, the +10% from scholar, making sure you have the traits for 25% from vulnerability, full might stacks, fury, banners…you get the picture. It’s when you put all that together that you have a difference that’s closer to a 600% improvement than a 60% one.
Berserker isn’t the source of the power, it’s a signal for it. Players with Berserker and Scholar are signaling that they get the rest of this; players with other sets frequently have the wrong traits, they don’t stack the right buffs, and as a result they slog through content.
It’s the same thing that obsolesces condition builds in PvE, by the way – on their own, condition damage boosts some of the most powerful skills in the game and pump out tons of damage. Unlike power damage, however, condition builds don’t get tons of traits that multiplicatively boost condition damage, they don’t get sigils that multiplicatively boost their damage, they don’t benefit from the vulnerability stacks; so while their base performance is awesome, they don’t get the ride all the damage multipliers into absurdity.
If condition damage got all the same trait and sigil multipliers that power damage gets, a 25 stack of bleeding wouldn’t deal 4000 DPS; it would deal more like 12000 – even in Dire tank gear.
The issue really isn’t Berserker gear – it’s actually one of the more reasonably balanced choices you can make. It’s everything else, how absurd it can get when multiplied out, and how that works right in line with what a full Zerk set wants to do.
What passive play in pve? I don’t think anyone should try to make the term passive play interchangeable with its definition in pvp. Because its not the same.
It’s not exactly the same but it’s still passive.
If I recall in one of the CDI threads or STOG interview JS said he wants more active and less passive play but I can’t remember if that was in referrance to PVP or PVE. So, if that Dev carries any weight then passive play (read: condi builds) ain’t going to get any better which means nerfing zerker builds.
And Drarnor, the point I was making I’m going to do everything to make the fight go faster meaning being as zerker as I can without having to back off… So, instead of being 100% I will go 90% zerk and make up that 10% by not having to back off. I will find the balance to make sure the fight goes just as fast.
He was referring to pvp, there is no complaint about passive play in pve lol. Passive play refers to: AI in pvp, passive traits like empathic bond and healing signet. Those are just examples.
Passive play does not refer to a build that can take more damage than a zerker. This is just to pve community trying to redefine the meaning of it. In pvp all stat types are or can be viable.
Irregardless, passive play in pvp is very similar to pve in the context that condi builds promote passive play because like the AI of passive traits the conditions are passive damage… And, a phrase or word can have more than one meaning in the English language.
RNG is a bell curve. Better hope you’re on the right side.
If I recall in one of the CDI threads or STOG interview JS said he wants more active and less passive play but I can’t remember if that was in referrance to PVP or PVE. So, if that Dev carries any weight then passive play (read: condi builds) ain’t going to get any better which means nerfing zerker builds.
And Drarnor, the point I was making I’m going to do everything to make the fight go faster meaning being as zerker as I can without having to back off… So, instead of being 100% I will go 90% zerk and make up that 10% by not having to back off. I will find the balance to make sure the fight goes just as fast.
He was referring to pvp, there is no complaint about passive play in pve lol. Passive play refers to: AI in pvp, passive traits like empathic bond and healing signet. Those are just examples.
Passive play does not refer to a build that can take more damage than a zerker. This is just to pve community trying to redefine the meaning of it. In pvp all stat types are or can be viable.
Irregardless, passive play in pvp is very similar to pve in the context that condi builds promote passive play because like the AI of passive traits the conditions are passive damage… And, a phrase or word can have more than one meaning in the English language.
Condition damage and passive play are entirely different things. No one that I’ve seen has ever clumped condition damage in the same category as something like healing signet. You have to apply conditions so there is a activity involved. You do not apply healing signet, it just ticks. Hence the passive play.
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Once you’ve applied the conditions they just tick… hence the passive play. Like I said, not the same but very similar.
RNG is a bell curve. Better hope you’re on the right side.
Let me start by saying that I don’t PvE and I think you’re all a bunch of flower pickers and tree huggers.
With that being said, there’re 17 different gear sets in the game atm, the fact that there’s one set that outclasses all the other ones is an eye gauging case of bad dungeon design. It’s not the zerker player’s fault, it’s not the pvt, tanks, healers, buffbots or vending machines either. It’s ANet’s fault for making poor choices when designing their dungeons/instances whatever they’re called and taking the easy way out by making them a giant dps race instead of taking the time to come up with some more creative mechanics that require the use of the other 16 gear sets.
Are changes necessary? Obviously yes.
Do they need to change the gear? Not at all
What they need to do is finally step up and improve their instance design to require gear/spec diversity.
The solution for PvE is;
- make bosses harder
- make armour useful
- make healing necessary
drum rolls
TADAAAA: we have a team game which requires skilled play
adding healing does not = skilled play
Actually, the problem with Teq isn’t that the event can easily fail – it’s more along the lines of being an open world event which needs at least 80 coordinated people who know the fight well and know exactly where to stand (the spots dealing damage to Teq are nothing but dps checks as well). Oh, and the fact that the event can be completely trolled by 8 or ten players sitting on the … thingies. God, it’s been ages since I’ve been there.
that’s a good thing, though. it’s a dragon fight. these things pretty much brought the planet to its knees. it should be an extremely difficult fight, that requires full scale coordination in order to stand an even chance. that’s what makes victory truly satisfying, instead of artificially satisfying by playing into people’s greed for imaginary loot. nothing worth having ever comes easily. if it came easily, it wouldn’t be worth having.
You can’t have challening dungeons requiring teamwork without the holy trinity.
You just can’t.
For all the people who don’t want a holy trinity, this is the alternative.
Truth. The only way to make a dungeon require teamwork is by making players dependent from team mates.
I think another way would be to add in class-specific challenges, which require a certain class to get through them. For example an engineer puzzle, a stealth assassination, a illusion game, a elemental challenge and so on and so forth.
i absolutely agree that dungeons should require teamwork, and that players should be dependent on their teammates. however, that can indeed be accomplished without the trinity system. roleplaying games have done it for decades before the trinity system was ever even thought up. MMOs shifted into the trinity system because a monkey could figure it out and build around it. it didn’t require actually having knowledge on how to make challenging encounters. all it required was a degree in computer programming and someone willing to pony up the cash for funding. in fact, that can be said about most aspects in most MMOs. they’re patchworks to cover up a lack of critical knowledge in the science of RPG creation. show me someone that’s been studying RPGs for 20 years, and i’ll show you someone that can make a MMO that will blow everything else out of the water. show me someone who just wants to make video games, and i’ll show you someone who would better off making a FPS. RPG creation is a science in itself, and one that most developers are completely ignorant of. the easiest way to tell is by just looking at the numbers. if they’re not something that players and quickly and practically manage and use on their own, it’s just not an RPG system. what’s worse is when numbers are needlessly inflated without serving any practical purpose other than “bigger numbers make stupid people feel more powerful”. that in itself is a complete illusion. no one’s more powerful, they just need to bust out a scientific calculator if they want to do anything involving the numbers on their own.
as far as a working system goes, every class should have its own unique role. good RPGs understand that they need to be concerned with more than just damage. traps, locks, manual dexterity, stealth, numerous areas of knowledge, buffs, debuffs, CC, even things like just plain conversation ability. every class should have strengths and every class should have weaknesses. good encounters should play into those strengths, while simultaneously exposing the weaknesses. bad systems consist solely of dealing damage, mitigating damage, and healing damage and….. nothing else. that’s a bad FPS trying to wear an RPG mask.
With that being said, there’re 17 different gear sets in the game atm
Not really. There’s one PvE set and 17 PvP sets. Zerk is for PvE, the rest if the evolving PvP meta.
What I find funny is how it’s the PVT bads who are saying “zerk makes PvE faceroll QQ pls nerf” but what they don’t understand is that most zerkers are also bads using subpar rotations, utilities and weapons and have a poor understanding of encounters and faceplant themselves, getting carried by the experienced zerker. I’ve taken part in a number of “zerk only”, “exp only”, “melee lupicus” pugs, watched them all die and then finished him off myself.
The fact of the matter is, zerker IS high risk, high reward. If you try playing zerker like a scrub in Arah, you’ll just die. If you try scrubbing in CoF p1, using whirling axe and camping greatsword, your DPS carries you despite it sucking.
The tl;dr is – zerker does not need nerfing. Bad zerkers die. Good zerkers succeed. Risk. Reward. It’s right there.
Now if you would all stop watching speed videos or reading dungeon forum chat about how we all obliterate everything since we’re playing with likeminded individuals, you’d realise it’s a small minority who can blitz content in berserker, and your average pug zerk is just some casual bad trying to “fit in” with his “OP” zerk warrior despite their DPS being utterly average.
Sanctum of Rall (NA) | [LOD]
Morrï Mahariel | Serah Mahariel | Morrï
A bunch of amateur solos from yours truly
Morrï Mahariel | Serah Mahariel | Morrï
A bunch of amateur solos from yours truly
What I find funny is how it’s the PVT bads who are saying “zerk makes PvE faceroll QQ pls nerf” but what they don’t understand is that most zerkers are also bads using subpar rotations, utilities and weapons and have a poor understanding of encounters and faceplant themselves, getting carried by the experienced zerker. I’ve taken part in a number of “zerk only”, “exp only”, “melee lupicus” pugs, watched them all die and then finished him off myself.
The fact of the matter is, zerker IS high risk, high reward. If you try playing zerker like a scrub in Arah, you’ll just die. If you try scrubbing in CoF p1, using whirling axe and camping greatsword, your DPS carries you despite it sucking.
The tl;dr is – zerker does not need nerfing. Bad zerkers die. Good zerkers succeed. Risk. Reward. It’s right there.
Now if you would all stop watching speed videos or reading dungeon forum chat about how we all obliterate everything since we’re playing with likeminded individuals, you’d realise it’s a small minority who can blitz content in berserker, and your average pug zerk is just some casual bad trying to “fit in” with his “OP” zerk warrior despite their DPS being utterly average.
^
Very good post, exactly how it is.
How To Make Berserker Gear Less Effective (ANET STYLE):
make everything immune to crits (tequatl)also, look at all this resentment coming people who hate the DPS meta and want zerker to be nerfed. here’s some news: DPS will still be meta after any “balancing” anet does. all anet will succeed at doing is making dungeon runs slower. people will still run glass builds with minimal defensive utility.
You can still run glass builds. But if Arenanet hits the right spot during the coming process the glass build will not longer the fastest way to complete the majority of the dungeons.
The only way that’s even possible is if they make every or the majority of encounters into some kitten puzzle…which will be super annoying. The fact is that stuff does not die from toughness/vitality/healing power. Stuff dies from having damage dealt to it. Until that somehow changes, then dps will always be the meta…and the highest dps will always be glass by definition…since glass foregoes survival in favor of dps. They may find some way to make us compromise more in terms of retaining more survival, but that goes against the same thing “play as you wants” hate.
P1 ONLY ZERKERS NO NOOBS 6k ach
this has to die
action combat made mmos better lol
The solution for PvE is;
- make bosses harder
- make armour useful
- make healing necessary
drum rolls
TADAAAA: we have a team game which requires skilled play
TADAAAA, you now have WoW.
P1 ONLY ZERKERS NO NOOBS 6k ach
this has to die
Why? Those groups play how they want apparently. They clearly don’t want anyone stopping them from playing how they want. You can’t have it both ways.
P1 ONLY ZERKERS NO NOOBS 6k ach
this has to dieWhy? Those groups play how they want apparently. They clearly don’t want anyone stopping them from playing how they want. You can’t have it both ways.
they play like this because of the profit and the benefit, nothing more.
action combat made mmos better lol
P1 ONLY ZERKERS NO NOOBS 6k ach
this has to dieWhy? Those groups play how they want apparently. They clearly don’t want anyone stopping them from playing how they want. You can’t have it both ways.
they play like this because of the profit and the benefit, nothing more.
Because you have personally polled each and every one of us for his/her honest answer to this issue? Even if those were the primary motivations…what of it? I’m sure pvt/clerics have their own motivations. Maybe less deaths…which are profits in a way, and also the benefit…less likely to look bad by dying frequently?
(edited by ODB.6891)
The solution for PvE is;
- make bosses harder
- make armour useful
- make healing necessary
drum rolls
TADAAAA: we have a team game which requires skilled play
TADAAAA, you now have WoW.
Rubbish.
There is no active aggro management in game. And every class can heal themselves. No mechanics in wow work remotely similar to that.
If anything it would be more similar to the original gw.
Amd Ryzen 1800x – Amd Fury X -64GB of ram
Windows 10
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The solution for PvE is;
- make bosses harder
- make armour useful
- make healing necessary
drum rolls
TADAAAA: we have a team game which requires skilled play
Using healing shouts, so much skill is involved. Only the best players could ever do it.
The people who believe the holy trinity is the best way to solve some of these issues are so ignorant. But, not here to rant about that.
Currently, support is laughed at in dungeons. As it should be. The fact of the matter is, the faster the enemy dies, the less time the enemy has to attack. Which means there is less margin of error, and there is less chance of failure. Berserker, is quite literally, the best way to support your team. Granted, you have to play it well. The problem is these boss mechanics that focus on one shot kills, or huge attacks that can destroy someone entire health bar. Fighting a boss with a one shot mechanic, killing it faster is your best option. If you can kill said boss in a minute, lets say that boss got only 3 one shot attacks off. Everyone dodged it, everyone was fine, they continue. But when you don’t go DPS, the fight may take 10 minutes. Suddenly you will have to have 30 dodges or blocks done over that time, in order to not get one shotted. The margin of error increases. Instead of only 3 dodges, you now have 30 to contend with. And the chances of an error are increased. And when someone goes down, you now need to res them. Your DPS drops further, making the fight 20 minutes now. Now you have 60 chances to make a mistake.
I can get a team to kill Kholer in less than a minute, or I can take that team to fight him unstacked and not in a corner. Suddenly, the fight takes MUCH longer than a simple loss of FGS dps. People make mistakes, people go down. People die, the team wipes. Why would I want to take 20 minutes to do something that takes less than one minute? Taking the longer route only decreases my teams chance for success.
So why is it bad that people go for DPS gear. Sure, some elitism and rudeness also seem to follow that, but it is on the players for their actions, not the armor. A rude zerk player will still be an kitten in different gear.
What needs changing is a large overhaul of the dungeon and fight system currently in place. Imagine doing things where players have to split, and do tasks at the same time. Imagine holding a point by yourself, instead with the group at points. Suddenly, you need a team of people who can handle themselves in a fight alone, instead of pure stack and DPS. It would add some variety, some diversity, and a better test of skill than many other dungeons are now. Might now solve the DPS meta though…
I don’t know all the answers. But I know that currently DPS is the best support. Anyone who thinks otherwise just needs to look at simple numbers.
The solution for PvE is;
- make bosses harder
- make armour useful
- make healing necessary
drum rolls
TADAAAA: we have a team game which requires skilled play
TADAAAA, you now have WoW.
Rubbish.
There is no active aggro management in game. And every class can heal themselves. No mechanics in wow work remotely similar to that.
If anything it would be more similar to the original gw.
A lot of, not all, in wow can heal themselves to some degree. That is a minor point of the issue. The major point is that healing is required by someone other than that individual to keep them alive. Don’t duplicate that here. That is step one of the trinity. Step two would be putting too much demand on that one “healer” and needing to be able to focus on one person to heal..then the “tank” becomes needed. I’ll pass on the gateway to the trinity…thanks.
Armor makes a minimal difference in this game for a reason. Changing that would also be a WoW-esque move. Having certain armor type, and by extension, certain classes (heavies) be significantly more resistant to damage leads to one thing…tanks. Again…I’ll pass on the trinity…thanks.
The only thing really different so far in WoW from what was just suggested is aggro mechanics. That’s still a grey area in GW2 as far as I can tell. I know when I get stuck with a group of pvts/clerics…I tend to get focused by mobs…and I make sure not to gear any toughness…so that means I’m getting aggro from doing too much damage apparently or being in too close proximity while everyone else plays range wars 2. I don’t want to tank!
(edited by ODB.6891)
The solution for PvE is;
- make bosses harder
- make armour useful
- make healing necessary
drum rolls
TADAAAA: we have a team game which requires skilled play
TADAAAA, you now have WoW.
Rubbish.
There is no active aggro management in game. And every class can heal themselves. No mechanics in wow work remotely similar to that.
If anything it would be more similar to the original gw.
A lot of, not all, in wow can heal themselves to some degree. That is a minor point of the issue. The major point is that healing is required by someone other that that individual to keep them alive. Don’t duplicate that here. That is step one of the trinity. Step two would be putting too much demand on that one “healer” and needing to be able to focus on one person to heal..then the “tank” becomes needed. I’ll pass on the gateway to the trinity…thanks.
Armor makes a minimal difference in this game for a reason. Changing that would also be a WoW-esque move. Having certain armor type, and by extension, certain classes (heavies) be significantly more resistant to damage leads to one thing…tanks. Again…I’ll pass on the trinity…thanks.
The only thing really different so far in WoW from what was just suggested is aggro mechanics. That’s still a grey area in GW2 as far as I can tell. I know when I get stuck with a group of pvts/clerics…I tend to get focused by mobs…and I make sure not to gear any toughness…so that means I’m getting aggro from doing too much damage apparently or being in too close proximity while everyone else plays range wars 2. I don’t want to tank!
No in wow, non healers can’t actively heal themselves. There would still be periods you have down time in places like solo pve. The only way to prevent that is to have a healing buddy. Gw in comparison is nothing like that. Every class is self sustaining in that regard.
I don’t want a dedicated healer class either, I don’t think many people here do. The way I see healing in this game is that it just covers the intervals of vulnerability one may have in combat. The rest of the mitigation comes from self reliance.
In regards to armor, it has never felt like their is a difference in mitigation between light, medium and heavy. At least I can’t tell the difference. Buffing heavy armor to provide more mitigation wouldn’t create a tank. A tank can only exist if there are skills to force monsters to target you. Of course in gw2, there is no such thing so no one needs to worry about that.
And yes there is a type of passive aggro system in place. But you have no direct control of it:
Amd Ryzen 1800x – Amd Fury X -64GB of ram
Windows 10
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The solution for PvE is;
- make bosses harder
- make armour useful
- make healing necessary
drum rolls
TADAAAA: we have a team game which requires skilled play
TADAAAA, you now have WoW.
Rubbish.
There is no active aggro management in game. And every class can heal themselves. No mechanics in wow work remotely similar to that.
If anything it would be more similar to the original gw.
A lot of, not all, in wow can heal themselves to some degree. That is a minor point of the issue. The major point is that healing is required by someone other that that individual to keep them alive. Don’t duplicate that here. That is step one of the trinity. Step two would be putting too much demand on that one “healer” and needing to be able to focus on one person to heal..then the “tank” becomes needed. I’ll pass on the gateway to the trinity…thanks.
Armor makes a minimal difference in this game for a reason. Changing that would also be a WoW-esque move. Having certain armor type, and by extension, certain classes (heavies) be significantly more resistant to damage leads to one thing…tanks. Again…I’ll pass on the trinity…thanks.
The only thing really different so far in WoW from what was just suggested is aggro mechanics. That’s still a grey area in GW2 as far as I can tell. I know when I get stuck with a group of pvts/clerics…I tend to get focused by mobs…and I make sure not to gear any toughness…so that means I’m getting aggro from doing too much damage apparently or being in too close proximity while everyone else plays range wars 2. I don’t want to tank!
No in wow, non healers can’t actively heal themselves. There would still be periods you have down time in places like solo pve. The only way to prevent that is to have a healing buddy. Gw in comparison is nothing like that. Every class is self sustaining in that regard.
I don’t want a dedicated healer class either, I don’t think many people here do. The way I see healing in this game is that it just covers the intervals of vulnerability one may have in combat. The rest of the mitigation comes from self reliance.
In regards to armor, it has never felt like their is a difference in mitigation between light, medium and heavy. At least I can’t tell the difference. Buffing heavy armor to provide more mitigation wouldn’t create a tank. A tank can only exist if there are skills to force monsters to target you. Of course in gw2, there is no such thing so no one needs to worry about that.
And yes there is a type of passive aggro system in place. But you have no direct control of it:
Classes in wow that I remember being able to heal themselves to some degree.
all specs of druid, all specs of priest, warlock, death knight, all specs of paladin, all specs of shaman..I think that’s it. This was regardless if they were in damage specced or healing specced. This included some classes with zero healing specs like warlocks and death knights. I may be wrong about the warlock…that has been a long time ago, but I seem to remember some trait setup or ability to gain healthback through a life drain or pet sacrifice…too lazy and indifferent to look it up. I just remembered..it was health stones.
Its not just a dedicated healer class that I don’t want to see, but pressure from groups to have certain classes act as a healer as an expectation in the group. Example…I join a lfg pug on my zerk guard and get told to heal or I get booted…not cool.
As far as the tank thing…its a slippery slope. Once you have the set up to have a healer, and you have someone capable of soaking damage, its not a stretch to change the last piece of this trinity puzzle and change aggro mechanics.
I liked the idea someone had about emphasizing condition damage against certain mobs or during certain phases.
Also, they should add more unavoidable damage to the existing encounters.
Just those two relatively simple changes would probably make Berserker’s gear much less prevalent without touching its stats at all. It would also make dungeons more dynamic and encourage better team play.
[AS] Tarnished Coast
The solution for PvE is;
- make bosses harder
- make armour useful
- make healing necessary
drum rolls
TADAAAA: we have a team game which requires skilled play
TADAAAA, you now have WoW.
Rubbish.
There is no active aggro management in game. And every class can heal themselves. No mechanics in wow work remotely similar to that.
If anything it would be more similar to the original gw.
A lot of, not all, in wow can heal themselves to some degree. That is a minor point of the issue. The major point is that healing is required by someone other that that individual to keep them alive. Don’t duplicate that here. That is step one of the trinity. Step two would be putting too much demand on that one “healer” and needing to be able to focus on one person to heal..then the “tank” becomes needed. I’ll pass on the gateway to the trinity…thanks.
Armor makes a minimal difference in this game for a reason. Changing that would also be a WoW-esque move. Having certain armor type, and by extension, certain classes (heavies) be significantly more resistant to damage leads to one thing…tanks. Again…I’ll pass on the trinity…thanks.
The only thing really different so far in WoW from what was just suggested is aggro mechanics. That’s still a grey area in GW2 as far as I can tell. I know when I get stuck with a group of pvts/clerics…I tend to get focused by mobs…and I make sure not to gear any toughness…so that means I’m getting aggro from doing too much damage apparently or being in too close proximity while everyone else plays range wars 2. I don’t want to tank!
No in wow, non healers can’t actively heal themselves. There would still be periods you have down time in places like solo pve. The only way to prevent that is to have a healing buddy. Gw in comparison is nothing like that. Every class is self sustaining in that regard.
I don’t want a dedicated healer class either, I don’t think many people here do. The way I see healing in this game is that it just covers the intervals of vulnerability one may have in combat. The rest of the mitigation comes from self reliance.
In regards to armor, it has never felt like their is a difference in mitigation between light, medium and heavy. At least I can’t tell the difference. Buffing heavy armor to provide more mitigation wouldn’t create a tank. A tank can only exist if there are skills to force monsters to target you. Of course in gw2, there is no such thing so no one needs to worry about that.
And yes there is a type of passive aggro system in place. But you have no direct control of it:
Classes in wow that I remember being able to heal themselves to some degree.
all specs of druid, all specs of priest, warlock, death knight, all specs of paladin, all specs of shaman..I think that’s it. This was regardless if they were in damage specced or healing specced. This included some classes with zero healing specs like warlocks and death knights. I may be wrong about the warlock…that has been a long time ago, but I seem to remember some trait setup or ability to gain healthback through a life drain or pet sacrifice…too lazy and indifferent to look it up. I just remembered..it was health stones.Its not just a dedicated healer class that I don’t want to see, but pressure from groups to have certain classes act as a healer as an expectation in the group. Example…I join a lfg pug on my zerk guard and get told to heal or I get booted…not cool.
As far as the tank thing…its a slippery slope. Once you have the set up to have a healer, and you have someone capable of soaking damage, its not a stretch to change the last piece of this trinity puzzle and change aggro mechanics.
I don’t want to deviate the topic too much. But warlock and death knight aren’t healers nor can they do adequate heals. Paladin, Druid and Priest were the healers in the game. Paladin good for single target heals, Priest for aoe heals and Druid for heal over time.
You make some valid points, but when you look at the direction pve is possibly headed then try to look at gw1. It had great pve without having the traditional holy trinity. They had monks yes, but gw2 did a pretty good job in folding healing mechanics into all classes. So I don’t foresee a holy trinity situation coming up, unless its damage, support and control which are different.
Amd Ryzen 1800x – Amd Fury X -64GB of ram
Windows 10
Windows 10
I think a lot of people are missing the point here. For 90% of PvE content, players have found ways to exploit various mechanics, like height differences and stacking, so that they can spec purely for damage.
Seriously, zerker isn’t broken, dungeons are. Everything is stack and skip, with memorized patterns to avoid having to play content and turning every battle into dpsing a healthpool that does not threaten the party. This makes berserker the only logical option, as well as making the game boring.
Remove this BS and you will stop seeing “zerk only, ping or be kicked”.
Also, unavoidable damage is not the answer. That just removes all semblance of skill. Not that there is any now, with all of the freaking exploitable stacking spots.
Stacking is not exploiting.
Do you know how many times I’ve done AC and scrubs don’t pay attention to Kholer, get pulled in and melt to daggerstorm?
Have you tried stacking Alphard? Pugs die. Experienced players chain reflects.
Sanctum of Rall (NA) | [LOD]
Morrï Mahariel | Serah Mahariel | Morrï
A bunch of amateur solos from yours truly
Morrï Mahariel | Serah Mahariel | Morrï
A bunch of amateur solos from yours truly
Its good that they’ll nerf zerker.
Why exactly?
Because it divides the community. I run PVT guardian and ran HOW P1, ended up with all zerkers. At the end boss, everyone kept going down and 1 guy died next to an NPC, when I went to rez him, I ended up rezzing the NPC instead. This guy calls me out on it and I apologize. Then he proceeds to say that the reason we are having trouble is because I can’t do enough damage and that the NPC probably does more damage then I do. Well, the other party members didn’t like that comment and actually decided to kick him. We got another party member and finished the dungeon.
I decide to do SE path 1 and everyone decides to stack in the corner for the 3 golems, everyone goes down in a matter of a few seconds. I could tell they were zerkers. After 3 tries we finally got it. After finishing that path, went on to p3. Well, group decided to run past all the mobs right before the first boss and all the enemies got aggroed, followed and wiped everyone out 2 times. After everyone was already downed the 3rd time within a matter of seconds, I just decided to call it quits today. Next time I’m in a dungeon, I’m almost thinking about posting “No Zerkers” I mean maybe I can’t kill enemies as fast as the other people but if people are going down after 1 or 2 hits, how much faster can it be to have to start over and over and over again because the whole party wipes?
So what you’re really saying is you were grouped with bad players. Berserker gear had nothing to do with what you’re talking about.
P1 ONLY ZERKERS NO NOOBS 6k ach
this has to die
Why? For starters the fact that they are saying you need a certain amount of ap to join because they think a lot of ap means they’re good should be a giant red flag.
You should thank them for saving you some time.
Stacking is not exploiting.
Do you know how many times I’ve done AC and scrubs don’t pay attention to Kholer, get pulled in and melt to daggerstorm?
Have you tried stacking Alphard? Pugs die. Experienced players chain reflects.
Talking about AC:
Stacking on the rubble after the spider queen to avoid being damaged by the gravelings is an exploit, and probably that place you stack to kill the spiders themselves is too. Stacking on the pillar to avoid taking serious damage from Colossus Rumblus is probably an exploit as well.
Not to mention the many times pretty much any dungeon group will just skip past all of the nonessential mobs.
Similar things exist for pretty much every path in every other dungeon, though if I had to pick one I’d say that some of the Fractals are the worst off in this regard.
Stacking is not an exploit, you are correct. It is just another facet of the underlying problem: that people regularly exploit various parts of the game to clear content quicker, and thus employ tactics like stacking so that boons and fields are better shared, and full zerker so that mobs and bosses are cleared quicker. Making conditions more powerful in PvE won’t fix this, it will just shift the meta to full rampager, and nerfing zerker will just make it slower.
My opinion is that if you minimize the number of these stupid and exploitative areas/mechanics, PvE will become much more engaging, and the meta will shift naturally.
In addition, people might actually start playing the kitten game.
Its good that they’ll nerf zerker.
Why exactly?
Because it divides the community. I run PVT guardian and ran HOW P1, ended up with all zerkers. At the end boss, everyone kept going down and 1 guy died next to an NPC, when I went to rez him, I ended up rezzing the NPC instead. This guy calls me out on it and I apologize. Then he proceeds to say that the reason we are having trouble is because I can’t do enough damage and that the NPC probably does more damage then I do. Well, the other party members didn’t like that comment and actually decided to kick him. We got another party member and finished the dungeon.
I decide to do SE path 1 and everyone decides to stack in the corner for the 3 golems, everyone goes down in a matter of a few seconds. I could tell they were zerkers. After 3 tries we finally got it. After finishing that path, went on to p3. Well, group decided to run past all the mobs right before the first boss and all the enemies got aggroed, followed and wiped everyone out 2 times. After everyone was already downed the 3rd time within a matter of seconds, I just decided to call it quits today. Next time I’m in a dungeon, I’m almost thinking about posting “No Zerkers” I mean maybe I can’t kill enemies as fast as the other people but if people are going down after 1 or 2 hits, how much faster can it be to have to start over and over and over again because the whole party wipes?
So what you’re really saying is you were grouped with bad players. Berserker gear had nothing to do with what you’re talking about.
Zerker gear had everything to do with it. I guarantee if everyone in the group had better defensive armor, they would have survived the first group of enemies. How hard is it to understand that zerker leaves no room for error and makes you die faster? I will admit if you can see, dodge, reflect, block every single attack, that’s great and if you luck out and get a good PUG, zerker probably is the way to go. The problem is too many people think they can run zerker and don’t really understand how to play and die all the time and blame everyone else for their mistake. Why is zerker a problem? It’s been said many times, it creates “elitism”.
All a non-zerker does is the same as a berserker, but slower and more forgiving (i.e. for bads).
Berserker’s gear isn’t “wrong” at all-your attitude, on the other hand, is (you are hardly the only one, so this isn’t personal). I don’t think they can nerf your insults and “I am better than you” attitude, unfortunately.
Hopefully they can make some change that will at least help minimize/contain such community toxicity, but I doubt it’s even possible at this point.
all they need to do is make more enemies have protection, regeneration, retaliation, and explode on death. Range and tanks will become far more common. the hotw1 boss, even though people still dps him down, dies a lot quicker if you have one or two condi people in there. Still ,thats an old example, more common mobs, vets and such, should have boons for protection and all that. Hybrid builds would become better
There is no need to nerf zerker gear. That would make the gear useless because you are already giving up lots of durability compared to soldiers or knights.
The only problem I see with full groups of zerkers is that you can facetank bosses with that gear, which makes no sense to me. This is a problem with PvE boss mechanics, not the gear.
You should not be able to survive a boss fight in full dps armor when the boss is attacking you.
Make boss attacks more rapid, cleaving, and give them harder hitting strikes every so often that still need to be dodged by the dps. I think your average dungeon group should have at least one “tank” character. Full support specs shouldn’t really be necessary, but I wouldn’t mind them being viable either. For that to happen, we need more support classes than just Guardian/Ele.(talking about healing/boon support).
2x 80 Necro, 80 Ranger, 80 Thief
Its good that they’ll nerf zerker.
Why exactly?
Because it divides the community. I run PVT guardian and ran HOW P1, ended up with all zerkers. At the end boss, everyone kept going down and 1 guy died next to an NPC, when I went to rez him, I ended up rezzing the NPC instead. This guy calls me out on it and I apologize. Then he proceeds to say that the reason we are having trouble is because I can’t do enough damage and that the NPC probably does more damage then I do. Well, the other party members didn’t like that comment and actually decided to kick him. We got another party member and finished the dungeon.
I decide to do SE path 1 and everyone decides to stack in the corner for the 3 golems, everyone goes down in a matter of a few seconds. I could tell they were zerkers. After 3 tries we finally got it. After finishing that path, went on to p3. Well, group decided to run past all the mobs right before the first boss and all the enemies got aggroed, followed and wiped everyone out 2 times. After everyone was already downed the 3rd time within a matter of seconds, I just decided to call it quits today. Next time I’m in a dungeon, I’m almost thinking about posting “No Zerkers” I mean maybe I can’t kill enemies as fast as the other people but if people are going down after 1 or 2 hits, how much faster can it be to have to start over and over and over again because the whole party wipes?
So what you’re really saying is you were grouped with bad players. Berserker gear had nothing to do with what you’re talking about.
Zerker gear had everything to do with it. I guarantee if everyone in the group had better defensive armor, they would have survived the first group of enemies. How hard is it to understand that zerker leaves no room for error and makes you die faster? I will admit if you can see, dodge, reflect, block every single attack, that’s great and if you luck out and get a good PUG, zerker probably is the way to go. The problem is too many people think they can run zerker and don’t really understand how to play and die all the time and blame everyone else for their mistake. Why is zerker a problem? It’s been said many times, it creates “elitism”.
Bad players can wear any gear.
Its good that they’ll nerf zerker.
Why exactly?
Because it divides the community. I run PVT guardian and ran HOW P1, ended up with all zerkers. At the end boss, everyone kept going down and 1 guy died next to an NPC, when I went to rez him, I ended up rezzing the NPC instead. This guy calls me out on it and I apologize. Then he proceeds to say that the reason we are having trouble is because I can’t do enough damage and that the NPC probably does more damage then I do. Well, the other party members didn’t like that comment and actually decided to kick him. We got another party member and finished the dungeon.
I decide to do SE path 1 and everyone decides to stack in the corner for the 3 golems, everyone goes down in a matter of a few seconds. I could tell they were zerkers. After 3 tries we finally got it. After finishing that path, went on to p3. Well, group decided to run past all the mobs right before the first boss and all the enemies got aggroed, followed and wiped everyone out 2 times. After everyone was already downed the 3rd time within a matter of seconds, I just decided to call it quits today. Next time I’m in a dungeon, I’m almost thinking about posting “No Zerkers” I mean maybe I can’t kill enemies as fast as the other people but if people are going down after 1 or 2 hits, how much faster can it be to have to start over and over and over again because the whole party wipes?
So what you’re really saying is you were grouped with bad players. Berserker gear had nothing to do with what you’re talking about.
Zerker gear had everything to do with it. I guarantee if everyone in the group had better defensive armor, they would have survived the first group of enemies. How hard is it to understand that zerker leaves no room for error and makes you die faster? I will admit if you can see, dodge, reflect, block every single attack, that’s great and if you luck out and get a good PUG, zerker probably is the way to go. The problem is too many people think they can run zerker and don’t really understand how to play and die all the time and blame everyone else for their mistake. Why is zerker a problem? It’s been said many times, it creates “elitism”.
Elitism will not go away, there will just be another type of gear. As for HOTW Run I see it this way. PVT isn’t my gear choice for PvE at all. It is selfish and brings nothing to the group. If a guardian isn’t going to run Zerker, should be Clerics at least. HOTW is one of my favorite dungeons, I run it at least once a day, and I do it as a Zerker guardian. Your group had issues, I won’t say its you. That is why they failed not because they were wearing zerker gear.
But at the end of the day this is what we have to look at. PVT/Cleric/whatever needs zerkers, zerkers don’t need them. There is part of the community that cries out and wants to see zerker stats nerfed. Be-careful what you wish for. Its been stated and re-stated that bosses are punching bags with loads of hit points and a few one shot attacks. If we nerf/remove zerker builds from the game what will happen. All runs will take longer, we run the same dungeons for coins and loot. When you find yourself doing hotw and it takes an hour to run one path because you can’t kill the mobs fast enough you will be wanting some dps in your party again. How long can you expect players to grind the same stuff when it takes that long? At least now I don’t mind it cause its done rather quickly. If Anet does nerf zerker gear, I think that might be the time for me to part ways.
The solution isn’t to nerf what works, its to fix what is broken. Control and Support need a buff, we have been saying this for a while now. Given the history of how Anet fixes things it won’t happen, they will just nerf the dps and bam, that will be it.
“We have now left Reason and Sanity Junction. Next stop, Looneyville.”
(edited by Talyn.3295)
Its good that they’ll nerf zerker.
Why exactly?
Because it divides the community. I run PVT guardian and ran HOW P1, ended up with all zerkers. At the end boss, everyone kept going down and 1 guy died next to an NPC, when I went to rez him, I ended up rezzing the NPC instead. This guy calls me out on it and I apologize. Then he proceeds to say that the reason we are having trouble is because I can’t do enough damage and that the NPC probably does more damage then I do. Well, the other party members didn’t like that comment and actually decided to kick him. We got another party member and finished the dungeon.
I decide to do SE path 1 and everyone decides to stack in the corner for the 3 golems, everyone goes down in a matter of a few seconds. I could tell they were zerkers. After 3 tries we finally got it. After finishing that path, went on to p3. Well, group decided to run past all the mobs right before the first boss and all the enemies got aggroed, followed and wiped everyone out 2 times. After everyone was already downed the 3rd time within a matter of seconds, I just decided to call it quits today. Next time I’m in a dungeon, I’m almost thinking about posting “No Zerkers” I mean maybe I can’t kill enemies as fast as the other people but if people are going down after 1 or 2 hits, how much faster can it be to have to start over and over and over again because the whole party wipes?
So what you’re really saying is you were grouped with bad players. Berserker gear had nothing to do with what you’re talking about.
Zerker gear had everything to do with it. I guarantee if everyone in the group had better defensive armor, they would have survived the first group of enemies. How hard is it to understand that zerker leaves no room for error and makes you die faster? I will admit if you can see, dodge, reflect, block every single attack, that’s great and if you luck out and get a good PUG, zerker probably is the way to go. The problem is too many people think they can run zerker and don’t really understand how to play and die all the time and blame everyone else for their mistake. Why is zerker a problem? It’s been said many times, it creates “elitism”.
Bad players can wear any gear.
Elitism will not go away, there will just be another type of gear. As for HOTW Run I see it this way. PVT isn’t my gear choice for PvE at all. It is selfish and brings nothing to the group. If a guardian isn’t going to run Zerker, should be Clerics at least. HOTW is one of my favorite dungeons, I run it at least once a day, and I do it as a Zerker guardian. Your group had issues, I won’t say its you. That is why they failed not because they were wearing zerker gear.
But at the end of the day this is what we have to look at. PVT/Cleric/whatever needs zerkers, zerkers don’t need them. There is part of the community that cries out and wants to see zerker stats nerfed. Be-careful what you wish for. Its been stated and re-stated that bosses are punching bags with loads of hit points and a few one shot attacks. If we nerf/remove zerker builds from the game what will happen. All runs will take longer, we run the same dungeons for coins and loot. When you find yourself doing hotw and it takes an hour to run one path because you can’t kill the mobs fast enough you will be wanting some dps in your party again. How long can you expect players to grind the same stuff when it takes that long? At least now I don’t mind it cause its done rather quickly. If Anet does nerf zerker gear, I think that might be the time for me to part ways.
The solution isn’t to nerf what works, its to fix what is broken. Control and Support need a buff, we have been saying this for a while now. Given the history of how Anet fixes things it won’t happen, they will just nerf the dps and bam, that will be it.
I think you quoted the wrong person.
Its good that they’ll nerf zerker.
Why exactly?
Because it divides the community. I run PVT guardian and ran HOW P1, ended up with all zerkers. At the end boss, everyone kept going down and 1 guy died next to an NPC, when I went to rez him, I ended up rezzing the NPC instead. This guy calls me out on it and I apologize. Then he proceeds to say that the reason we are having trouble is because I can’t do enough damage and that the NPC probably does more damage then I do. Well, the other party members didn’t like that comment and actually decided to kick him. We got another party member and finished the dungeon.
I decide to do SE path 1 and everyone decides to stack in the corner for the 3 golems, everyone goes down in a matter of a few seconds. I could tell they were zerkers. After 3 tries we finally got it. After finishing that path, went on to p3. Well, group decided to run past all the mobs right before the first boss and all the enemies got aggroed, followed and wiped everyone out 2 times. After everyone was already downed the 3rd time within a matter of seconds, I just decided to call it quits today. Next time I’m in a dungeon, I’m almost thinking about posting “No Zerkers” I mean maybe I can’t kill enemies as fast as the other people but if people are going down after 1 or 2 hits, how much faster can it be to have to start over and over and over again because the whole party wipes?
So what you’re really saying is you were grouped with bad players. Berserker gear had nothing to do with what you’re talking about.
Zerker gear had everything to do with it. I guarantee if everyone in the group had better defensive armor, they would have survived the first group of enemies. How hard is it to understand that zerker leaves no room for error and makes you die faster? I will admit if you can see, dodge, reflect, block every single attack, that’s great and if you luck out and get a good PUG, zerker probably is the way to go. The problem is too many people think they can run zerker and don’t really understand how to play and die all the time and blame everyone else for their mistake. Why is zerker a problem? It’s been said many times, it creates “elitism”.
Bad players can wear any gear.
Elitism will not go away, there will just be another type of gear. As for HOTW Run I see it this way. PVT isn’t my gear choice for PvE at all. It is selfish and brings nothing to the group. If a guardian isn’t going to run Zerker, should be Clerics at least. HOTW is one of my favorite dungeons, I run it at least once a day, and I do it as a Zerker guardian. Your group had issues, I won’t say its you. That is why they failed not because they were wearing zerker gear.
But at the end of the day this is what we have to look at. PVT/Cleric/whatever needs zerkers, zerkers don’t need them. There is part of the community that cries out and wants to see zerker stats nerfed. Be-careful what you wish for. Its been stated and re-stated that bosses are punching bags with loads of hit points and a few one shot attacks. If we nerf/remove zerker builds from the game what will happen. All runs will take longer, we run the same dungeons for coins and loot. When you find yourself doing hotw and it takes an hour to run one path because you can’t kill the mobs fast enough you will be wanting some dps in your party again. How long can you expect players to grind the same stuff when it takes that long? At least now I don’t mind it cause its done rather quickly. If Anet does nerf zerker gear, I think that might be the time for me to part ways.
The solution isn’t to nerf what works, its to fix what is broken. Control and Support need a buff, we have been saying this for a while now. Given the history of how Anet fixes things it won’t happen, they will just nerf the dps and bam, that will be it.
I think you quoted the wrong person.
Sorry, i was trying to get both your post in with his, I don’t know why it only quoted yours.
“We have now left Reason and Sanity Junction. Next stop, Looneyville.”
The guy that accused me of not doing enough DPS was the first to die. I’m pretty sure he was in zerker gear. Anyway, whatever, I think zerkers are bad and zerkers think PVT players are bad. Who’s right? Who’s wrong? I don’t know but if a zerker is lying on the ground dead, how much DPS is he contributing to the team? If he’s such a bad player and that is why he’s dying, than zerker gear is not for him. So in this case being zerker can actually make a dungeon run take longer.
The guy that accused me of not doing enough DPS was the first to die. I’m pretty sure he was in zerker gear. Anyway, whatever, I think zerkers are bad and zerkers think PVT players are bad. Who’s right? Who’s wrong? I don’t know but if a zerker is lying on the ground dead, how much DPS is he contributing to the team? If he’s such a bad player and that is why he’s dying, than zerker gear is not for him. So in this case being zerker can actually make a dungeon run take longer.
Mobs aggro mechanic goes like this
1) Who is closest. ok 2 guys are using melee.
2) Who have highest armor, that guy have 3k armor – > attack
So the only way he could die first if there was not a lot of aoe is if the players in pvt were using ranged.
From what I’ve seen the aggro system is more complex than that. Some mobs have a lot of boon hate, others tend to go for players doing the most damage, others for the highest toughness. Sometimes they’ll change targets randomly before their main target is downed, too, or will change targets after they are downed (but not dead). Not to mention resurrection hate, or first damage/pull aggro.
Also whether or not you have a shield equipped, and whether or not you are using a ranged attack, all these factors and more influence who is marked for the next hit.
(edited by icewyrm.5038)
“We are trying to take steps to address some of the dominance of Berserker/DPS players. More info next week, I think. Jon”
Huh? I read it as following,
1.) ETA approx. 2015
2.) Balancing of conditions more likely than nerfing of zerker
3.) Increase of condi cap will make a TON of new builds more appealing while the nerfing of zerker on its own wont make anything more appealing, just leaving a sour taste of dislike in the mouth of x customers that are FORCED to buy into zerker because it is the only choice…. (unless you want to roll with a subpar build in a dungeon that is)
banished from time and space
The guy that accused me of not doing enough DPS was the first to die. I’m pretty sure he was in zerker gear. Anyway, whatever, I think zerkers are bad and zerkers think PVT players are bad. Who’s right? Who’s wrong? I don’t know but if a zerker is lying on the ground dead, how much DPS is he contributing to the team? If he’s such a bad player and that is why he’s dying, than zerker gear is not for him. So in this case being zerker can actually make a dungeon run take longer.
A zerker can be in full defeated state for a fair amount of time before a PVT/Cleric’s DPS catches up.
Sanctum of Rall (NA) | [LOD]
Morrï Mahariel | Serah Mahariel | Morrï
A bunch of amateur solos from yours truly
Morrï Mahariel | Serah Mahariel | Morrï
A bunch of amateur solos from yours truly
Zerker gear had everything to do with it. I guarantee if everyone in the group had better defensive armor, they would have survived the first group of enemies. How hard is it to understand that zerker leaves no room for error and makes you die faster? I will admit if you can see, dodge, reflect, block every single attack, that’s great and if you luck out and get a good PUG, zerker probably is the way to go. The problem is too many people think they can run zerker and don’t really understand how to play and die all the time and blame everyone else for their mistake. Why is zerker a problem? It’s been said many times, it creates “elitism”.
When I read first impressions of new Tequatl there was one thing I noticed mostly. It was PTV elitism.
Core AI behavior… not a simple skill loadout.
Bleh. Now, being a developer, I’m quite curious what engine this runs on and how their tooling is and how the underlying implementation is.
I suspected in the past that the reason changes seem slow and indirect in GW2 could be because it’s not their codebase. They bought the engine+toolkit. And as such as soon as they need to dig into the plumbing, things slow to a crawl because it’s hundreds of thousands of lines of code none of them wrote.
In this case, I would have thought that the AI system works by loading a list of skills, each of which can have various parameters. Then, each entity can have it’s own script what to do with those skills and abilities, or falls back. First to the type, then to the general subset (player pet, boss, other enemy, etc), then to the very basic “use longest CDs first” script.
That’s how I’d do it. But it might not be runtime efficient at all, I never had to do much of that yet besides some realtime combat-log parsing in WoW.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.