Guild Wars 2

Neschast.7196:

MLGKorno.5419:

Just read this topic:

Mbelch’s original point was that the nerfs to elementalist abilities that the topic starter asked for are highly flawed. Basically, celestial and might stacks are the main problems. Not drakes breath or lightning whip. How many eles even know about the lightning whip exploit? You can’t say all of them do it. But nearly every D/D celestial ele gets called OP in sPvP dueling servers. Also, eles who use zerker amulet still aren’t influential outside of team fights and PvE. They deal slightly higher damage than a might stacking celestial ele but have about a third of the sustain.
Nerfing the class’s skills doesn’t solve the problem. If the class is only OP with celestial amulet then it is obviously celestial that needs to be looked at. yet even this is hardly the case because almost every class except thief has a might stacking celestial build that’s extremely overpowered.
…
Additionally, what makes you think the number of tpvp games played by somebody reflects how well they know the class? Mbelch is a well known and skilled dueler who has played ele through the dark ages of it and petitioned restlessly for changes for over a year before the call was answered in the april balance patch. While everyone here knows it’s slightly over-the-top right now, the nerfs some of you people are calling for are completely moronic.

I won’t contest that Mbelch is a veteran, knowledgeable, skilled player, but Phantaram is as well. I don’t say that only because he streams, but because he too played elementalist during the time that they may as well have started out in downed-state. So, although I don’t play elementalist very often, I don’t feel it is wise to discount his suggestions; maybe some of the skills he pointed out do need to be looked at.

That having been said, I will agree that it seems as though might stacking and strength runes/hoelbrak runes are the principal culprit. As a mesmer main, it’s very easy to tell the difference when I miss my boon stripping and when I don’t X_X

A question though: What other classes/builds were you hinting at when you said “almost every class except thief has a might stacking celestial build that’s extremely overpowered”? The only ones that come to mind are elementalist, warrior, and power necro. I won’t dispute that engineers CAN stack might with battle sigils, however most of the engineers that I play against are running doom and geomancy, something that feels more effective to me.

That’s the thing though. Mbelch wasn’t discounting what Phanta was saying, but simply pointing out some errors in his suggestions. He did agree with celestial and strength/hoelbrak runes needs some tweaking. But the lighting whip (sustain exploit) and drake’s breath suggestion was bordering on the stupid side. Drake’s breath is only effective with might stacks and cele amulet. It’s one of our few sources of sustained dps. And as for the lighting whip stow weapon exploit allowing cele eles to have high sustain…Leave the skill alone and just fix the exploit itself instead. That’s a simpler solution.

And another thing you guys need to keep in mind is the upcoming changes to ranger, engis, and mesmers. You guys might just be happy to have a sustainable d/d ele on your team with the influx of power rangers, turret engis, and scepter mesmers. Just saying.

I feel like Celestial ele is in a precarious spot when it comes to balance. If you weaken the Celestial gear, it could become outclassed by another stat spread and fade from usage. If strength runes are nerfed, then eles may lose the ability to do decent damage on celestial and they may be forced into bunker or burst again. Nerfing drakes breath will also harm the already scarce condi ele.
I agree with a post I read a couple posts back. More anti boon meta would work. Not enough to wipe boons off the map, but enough to make it harder to successfully pull it off. This may be a bad example, but with the nerf to s/d #3 on the thief, they could move larcenous strike back to two boons. Another thing they could do is increase the priority of might on some boon strips. s/d thieves have to take swiftness and regen before they can get to your might (need fact check on this). If they made some skills, like mind stab on the mesmer gs prioritize might (after stability, if it doesn’t already), there would be some decent counterplay to might based builds.
My last nitpick is that d/d ele is not too hard to predict. Watching an ele swap attunements will give you a good idea of what they will do next before they even act. That’s just my two cents.

Well fix for Weapon Stow bug will be nice.
Another approach for the big might stacking problem will be not reducing it’s uptime drastically but to reduce its power/condit ratio to say 20/20 from 35/35 per stack.

This game promotes bunker low risk high reward builds. Every profession has them. It is understandable since the game was developed for casual gamers. I main Ele and I consider them overpowered in every area of this game if the player is skillful.. However, when it comes to the usual bunker meta Ele built found in spvp, the profession itself is not the culprit. The main source of the issue comes from the celestial gear, rune of strength and sigil of battle.

Are people suggestion an anti-boon meta right now?
Am I the only one here that has Deja Vu?
This was exactly was happened last time D/D Eles were considered OP, and what happened next? They were useless because of thieves.
Just tone down the condition damage on might stacks, and if furtherly necessary decrease the celes amulet by ~50 stats.
None of the elementalist skills are broken. The problem is simply that Might grants insane amounts of condition damage, which works extremely well with Celestial Amulet.
The exact same thing with Warrior. Might is PRIMARILY used for Condition Damage atm. which should be a clear sign something is a little off stat-wise.
You could also nerf Rune Of Hoelbrak, Rune of Strength and Sigil of Battle, but I’m pretty sure we are treading a fine line here between Might-stacking being viable and useless. You still have to be able to stack at least 15+.

I just love hearing the nerf might proposition over and over again. It’s one thing to nerf celestial without considering the classes that can’t use it as effective and the specs that can counter it but it’s a whole other thing nerfing might without considering the effect on real condition users mainly build for small scale fights or 1v1.

Sagat.3285:

I just love hearing the nerf might proposition over and over again. It’s one thing to nerf celestial without considering the classes that can’t use it as effective and the specs that can counter it but it’s a whole other thing nerfing might without considering the effect on real condition users mainly build for small scale fights or 1v1.

Very few – if any – condition builds except Warrior and Elementalist relies on might-stacking.
“That’s not true dude, I use my own condi build in WvW that relies on might.”
Yes. It’s a shame that your build will be even less effective, but that balance logic is seriously screwed. Think about it;
“Will Earthshaker be nerfed? WTF. I’m using Hammer in my 6/6/2/0/0 offensive warrior build, and it will be even less useless now. Thanks for kitten arenanet, way to support build diversity”
If ArenaNet had to balance thinking of every single build being affected, they could not touch anything.
The alternative to nerfing Might and trying to avoid hitting other classes would be to nerf the Elementalist’s skills, which would make every build except Might-stackers even worse. Those skills are not the source, since they are not unbalanced WITHOUT Might.
And yes, that IS an alternative and has been proposed in this thread. The problem is that you’re hitting build diversity even more.
Fact is; something has to change, so either you buff other classes to the same lvl (always ends up badly, and is much more time consuming) or you choose to nerf the thing with less impact on alternative builds.
With nerfing Might, you hit both the Ele and Warrior which is good, and apparently also some non-meta PvP/WvW builds.
Last alternative is to reduce the Might duration from runes, so that stacking +15 is not possible alone. That would help in duels and solo encounters but wouldn’t make a difference in a teamfight. Furthermore, you would have to look at all of the other runes, to make sure there aren’t alternatives (like pirate) and also make sure Hoelbrak and Strength does not become useless.

I don’t claim to have the exact answer, since I am unable to test either of these changes. So I can only speculate what their outcomes would be, but based on observations I’d say nerfing Conditon Damage on Might is the solution since Power on Might (and Power on Elementalists) is not a problem.

KrisHQ.4719:

Sagat.3285:

I just love hearing the nerf might proposition over and over again. It’s one thing to nerf celestial without considering the classes that can’t use it as effective and the specs that can counter it but it’s a whole other thing nerfing might without considering the effect on real condition users mainly build for small scale fights or 1v1.

Very few – if any – condition builds except Warrior and Elementalist relies on might-stacking.
“That’s not true dude, I use my own condi build in WvW that relies on might.”
Yes. It’s a shame that your build will be even less effective, but that balance logic is seriously screwed. Think about it;
“Will Earthshaker be nerfed? WTF. I’m using Hammer in my 6/6/2/0/0 offensive warrior build, and it will be even less useless now. Thanks for kitten arenanet, way to support build diversity”
If ArenaNet had to balance thinking of every single build being affected, they could not touch anything.
The alternative to nerfing Might and trying to avoid hitting other classes would be to nerf the Elementalist’s skills, which would make every build except Might-stackers even worse. Those skills are not the source, since they are not unbalanced WITHOUT Might.
And yes, that IS an alternative and has been proposed in this thread. The problem is that you’re hitting build diversity even more.
Fact is; something has to change, so either you buff other classes to the same lvl (always ends up badly, and is much more time consuming) or you choose to nerf the thing with less impact on alternative builds.
With nerfing Might, you hit both the Ele and Warrior which is good, and apparently also some non-meta PvP/WvW builds.
Last alternative is to reduce the Might duration from runes, so that stacking +15 is not possible alone. That would help in duels and solo encounters but wouldn’t make a difference in a teamfight. Furthermore, you would have to look at all of the other runes, to make sure there aren’t alternatives (like pirate) and also make sure Hoelbrak and Strength does not become useless.

I don’t claim to have the exact answer, since I am unable to test either of these changes. So I can only speculate what their outcomes would be, but based on observations I’d say nerfing Conditon Damage on Might is the solution since Power on Might (and Power on Elementalists) is not a problem.

Inferior burn and some bleeds do SO MUCH DAMAGE,even celestial war do so much conditions even Impale doesn’t land. Zerker in pvp with extra vitality and 0 toughness would change your opinion to nerf power side of might. Mainly offensive power build with melee focus and lack of boon removal have trouble against celestial and so far I haven’t of them being trouble in wvw.

@Sagat
I do not quite understand your post. I never said I wanted to nerf the power side of might? And what bleeds deal a lot of dmg as ele?
It seems you’re agreeing with me, that the condition damage is the problem?
Can you elaborate?

KrisHQ.4719:

@Sagat
I do not quite understand your post. I never said I wanted to nerf the power side of might? And what bleeds deal a lot of dmg as ele?
It seems you’re agreeing with me, that the condition damage is the problem?
Can you elaborate?

Sarcasm……..the last possible thing I did was agreeing with you.

Sagat.3285:

KrisHQ.4719:

@Sagat
I do not quite understand your post. I never said I wanted to nerf the power side of might? And what bleeds deal a lot of dmg as ele?
It seems you’re agreeing with me, that the condition damage is the problem?
Can you elaborate?

Sarcasm……..the last possible thing I did was agreeing with you.

Well. From a sarcastic point of view, your post still does not make any sense.
I can’t really comment on your post, if it is not explained.

KrisHQ.4719:

Sagat.3285:

KrisHQ.4719:

@Sagat
I do not quite understand your post. I never said I wanted to nerf the power side of might? And what bleeds deal a lot of dmg as ele?
It seems you’re agreeing with me, that the condition damage is the problem?
Can you elaborate?

Sarcasm……..the last possible thing I did was agreeing with you.

Well. From a sarcastic point of view, your post still does not make any sense.
I can’t really comment on your post, if it is not explained.

Like you said : what bleed deals a lot of damage?even with burn and/or poison? Only zerkers with melee focus and poor boon dealing complain about celestial and your lack of toughness rather than direct damage turn you on conditions?! How is that possible or you wouldn’t like power build nerf? Did you build to counter celestial ele or to play what you like???

So this is the opinion of supposedly one of the “best” elementalist? So instead of fixing the CAUSE you suggest they fix the EFFECT? How sad.

Is this what they call Eletism?

Sagat.3285:

KrisHQ.4719:

Sagat.3285:

KrisHQ.4719:

@Sagat
I do not quite understand your post. I never said I wanted to nerf the power side of might? And what bleeds deal a lot of dmg as ele?
It seems you’re agreeing with me, that the condition damage is the problem?
Can you elaborate?

Sarcasm……..the last possible thing I did was agreeing with you.

Well. From a sarcastic point of view, your post still does not make any sense.
I can’t really comment on your post, if it is not explained.

Like you said : what bleed deals a lot of damage?even with burn and/or poison? Only zerkers with melee focus and poor boon dealing complain about celestial and your lack of toughness rather than direct damage turn you on conditions?! How is that possible or you wouldn’t like power build nerf? Did you build to counter celestial ele or to play what you like???

Burning and poison deals fair amounts of dmg throughout a fight, bleed does not however. Only if you land Churning Earth, then you can stack roughly 10 stacks.
I still don’t know what you’re suggestion is the cause. But I can assure you that conditions have a huge part in it. Otherwise, Elementalists would also be OP with Valkyrie’s Amulet.

KrisHQ.4719:

Sagat.3285:

KrisHQ.4719:

Sagat.3285:

KrisHQ.4719:

@Sagat
I do not quite understand your post. I never said I wanted to nerf the power side of might? And what bleeds deal a lot of dmg as ele?
It seems you’re agreeing with me, that the condition damage is the problem?
Can you elaborate?

Sarcasm……..the last possible thing I did was agreeing with you.

Well. From a sarcastic point of view, your post still does not make any sense.
I can’t really comment on your post, if it is not explained.

Like you said : what bleed deals a lot of damage?even with burn and/or poison? Only zerkers with melee focus and poor boon dealing complain about celestial and your lack of toughness rather than direct damage turn you on conditions?! How is that possible or you wouldn’t like power build nerf? Did you build to counter celestial ele or to play what you like???

Burning and poison deals fair amounts of dmg throughout a fight, bleed does not however. Only if you land Churning Earth, then you can stack roughly 10 stacks.
I still don’t know what you’re suggestion is the cause. But I can assure you that conditions have a huge part in it. Otherwise, Elementalists would also be OP with Valkyrie’s Amulet.

Valkyrie lacks precision,vitality and healing power. Who gets hits with Churning Earth? It’s celestial (all stats matter)not rabid,dire or carrion,poison is only used for reduced healing. Long fights are at a disavantage of zerkers, stay at range and maintain the ele as far from you as possible like with LB ranger or rifle engi you won’t see much pressure. I’ve never heard of condi ele in pvp in wvw they use dire and perplexity runes…

Only zerkers with melee focus and low boon dealing struggle against celestial ele. Might if nerf would be power side and again did you build to counter them or play what you like? Answer…….

@Sagat
I can’t answer your question, because I have no idea what you’re asking.
I have not built to counter D/D Eles. I play D/D Ele, and I’m sitting here proposing a nerf – If that was your question.

Simple.

You can find the easiest and the hardest build to fight because the game is not about 1v1. Zerker Ax/Sh war complains about celestial ele while LB ranger is trolling the ele while the ele runs away from condition necro. If you can’t get that your credibility is even more in question.

Neko.9021:

I don’t really regard the ability of players to duel in 1v1 situations to be indicative of their skill, given that everything in the game (PvE, WvW, SPvP) is about your ability to team-fight well. If we accepted that 1v1 capability shows how good of a player you are, then PU Mesmers must be the best players in this game :P

SMH… Have you ever heard of a point holder? I know for a fact the 1000+ hours I’ve spent dueling, is the main reason I do so well for my team in spvp. How could learning what skills to dodge and when to burst for best chances of success ever be a bad thing? The fact you could ever think the ability to to fight well in 1v1 is irrelevant towards skill level is astounding, darn noob.

To the people saying “nerf drakes breath” can you people seriously not strafe?
Out of all the things Anet should nerf on Ele, DRAKES BREATH?!
Maybe if some of you learned what the Burning speed animation looked like you’d never get hit by it again, and rather rofl stomp the eles you were fighting. I kid you not I dodge burning speed + LF combo 99% of the time as long as I have a dodge ready and I am not stuck in CC, It is COMPLETELY avoidable, does not take a pro player to dodge it and prevents over half the eles dps. Heres your ready to go “nerf” fresh for the taking.

If you excel (without easy mode cheese builds) in 1v1 then you will be great in group fight but the same can’t be said vice-versa. I loled too on the nerf of drakes breath.

Pvp lesson 101: Learn to strafe

P.S: lasting long because you are playing a bunker build doesn’t make you a skillful player on 1v1 encounters.

Grimreaper.5370:

Neko.9021:

I don’t really regard the ability of players to duel in 1v1 situations to be indicative of their skill, given that everything in the game (PvE, WvW, SPvP) is about your ability to team-fight well. If we accepted that 1v1 capability shows how good of a player you are, then PU Mesmers must be the best players in this game :P

SMH… Have you ever heard of a point holder? I know for a fact the 1000+ hours I’ve spent dueling, is the main reason I do so well for my team in spvp. How could learning what skills to dodge and when to burst for best chances of success ever be a bad thing? The fact you could ever think the ability to to fight well in 1v1 is irrelevant towards skill level is astounding, darn noob.

To the people saying “nerf drakes breath” can you people seriously not strafe? Out of all the things Anet should nerf on Ele, DRAKES BREATH?! LOL!

Well frankly you can just aim the thing manually by right clicking and dragging, as you can with a number of other skills, and that is usually a better idea anyway, but still, the thing has 300 range. If it’s that much of a problem, step out of the way for a full 2.25 seconds and then you’re good for at least ten seconds, because any ele that doesn’t swap attunements before then is probably a dead one, unless you don’t understand focusing.

KrisHQ.4719:

@Sagat
I can’t answer your question, because I have no idea what you’re asking.
I have not built to counter D/D Eles. I play D/D Ele, and I’m sitting here proposing a nerf – If that was your question.

dude you are pure gold, srly the way you backhand slap him is so funny

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Grimreaper.5370:

Neko.9021:

I don’t really regard the ability of players to duel in 1v1 situations to be indicative of their skill, given that everything in the game (PvE, WvW, SPvP) is about your ability to team-fight well. If we accepted that 1v1 capability shows how good of a player you are, then PU Mesmers must be the best players in this game :P

SMH… Have you ever heard of a point holder? I know for a fact the 1000+ hours I’ve spent dueling, is the main reason I do so well for my team in spvp. How could learning what skills to dodge and when to burst for best chances of success ever be a bad thing? The fact you could ever think the ability to to fight well in 1v1 is irrelevant towards skill level is astounding, darn noob.

To the people saying “nerf drakes breath” can you people seriously not strafe? Out of all the things Anet should nerf on Ele, DRAKES BREATH?! LOL!

Well frankly you can just aim the thing manually by right clicking and dragging, as you can with a number of other skills, and that is usually a better idea anyway, but still, the thing has 300 range. If it’s that much of a problem, step out of the way for a full 2.25 seconds and then you’re good for at least ten seconds, because any ele that doesn’t swap attunements before then is probably a dead one, unless you don’t understand focusing.

Go try and spin in a circle while channeling drakes breath and watch how terrible the skill is at keeping up with your frontal arc. If you strafe around an ele in a circle while staying fairly close to them they aren’t going to land crap its almost as bad as trying to land the Guardian’s main hand sword skill: zealot’s defense, except nothing is quite that bad, except that skill ofc.

Grimreaper.5370:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Grimreaper.5370:

Neko.9021:

I don’t really regard the ability of players to duel in 1v1 situations to be indicative of their skill, given that everything in the game (PvE, WvW, SPvP) is about your ability to team-fight well. If we accepted that 1v1 capability shows how good of a player you are, then PU Mesmers must be the best players in this game :P

SMH… Have you ever heard of a point holder? I know for a fact the 1000+ hours I’ve spent dueling, is the main reason I do so well for my team in spvp. How could learning what skills to dodge and when to burst for best chances of success ever be a bad thing? The fact you could ever think the ability to to fight well in 1v1 is irrelevant towards skill level is astounding, darn noob.

To the people saying “nerf drakes breath” can you people seriously not strafe? Out of all the things Anet should nerf on Ele, DRAKES BREATH?! LOL!

Well frankly you can just aim the thing manually by right clicking and dragging, as you can with a number of other skills, and that is usually a better idea anyway, but still, the thing has 300 range. If it’s that much of a problem, step out of the way for a full 2.25 seconds and then you’re good for at least ten seconds, because any ele that doesn’t swap attunements before then is probably a dead one, unless you don’t understand focusing.

Go try and spin in a circle while channeling drakes breath and watch how terrible the skill is at keeping up with your frontal arc. If you strafe around an ele in a circle while staying fairly close to them they aren’t going to land crap its almost as bad as trying to land the Guardian’s main hand sword skill: zealot’s defense, except nothing is quite that bad, except that skill ofc.

That’s why you lead a bit; it just needs a bit of practice, and really it needs to be somewhat avoidable anyways, with its twelve seconds of burn and 2.0 damage coefficient. Besides, it’s still better than letting the game try to do it for you.

LightningBlaze.4913:

If you excel (without easy mode cheese builds) in 1v1 then you will be great in group fight but the same can’t be said vice-versa

I definitely agree.

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Grimreaper.5370:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Grimreaper.5370:

Neko.9021:

I don’t really regard the ability of players to duel in 1v1 situations to be indicative of their skill, given that everything in the game (PvE, WvW, SPvP) is about your ability to team-fight well. If we accepted that 1v1 capability shows how good of a player you are, then PU Mesmers must be the best players in this game :P

SMH… Have you ever heard of a point holder? I know for a fact the 1000+ hours I’ve spent dueling, is the main reason I do so well for my team in spvp. How could learning what skills to dodge and when to burst for best chances of success ever be a bad thing? The fact you could ever think the ability to to fight well in 1v1 is irrelevant towards skill level is astounding, darn noob.

To the people saying “nerf drakes breath” can you people seriously not strafe? Out of all the things Anet should nerf on Ele, DRAKES BREATH?! LOL!

Well frankly you can just aim the thing manually by right clicking and dragging, as you can with a number of other skills, and that is usually a better idea anyway, but still, the thing has 300 range. If it’s that much of a problem, step out of the way for a full 2.25 seconds and then you’re good for at least ten seconds, because any ele that doesn’t swap attunements before then is probably a dead one, unless you don’t understand focusing.

Go try and spin in a circle while channeling drakes breath and watch how terrible the skill is at keeping up with your frontal arc. If you strafe around an ele in a circle while staying fairly close to them they aren’t going to land crap its almost as bad as trying to land the Guardian’s main hand sword skill: zealot’s defense, except nothing is quite that bad, except that skill ofc.

That’s why you lead a bit; it just needs a bit of practice, and really it needs to be somewhat avoidable anyways, with its twelve seconds of burn and 2.0 damage coefficient. Besides, it’s still better than letting the game try to do it for you.

Are you under the impression that I was complaining about it not hitting? Also, no, as long as you’re in the “sweet spot” and can circle strafe, that drakes breath isn’t catching up to you. I don’t want the skill buffed Mr.Pdiddy, I just think its hilarious this is the skill that must be nerfed to balance the class. How about just nerf defensive stats on celestial and replace the points taken away with more offensive stats? While were at it, rebalance the other amulets that are lackluster as well.

Well I know Phanta wants to compete with Scepter builds but is not that good if you are melee tunneled and his only chance to compete is to play Cele D/D and he doesn’t like that.

I can understand that from what I see ANet has to reduce the might stacking ability of the classes who can abuse celestial stats and all of them.

For Ele I would say, it would help alot let say that blast finisher for Churning Earth from the beginning of the cast to the end of the cast.

At the moment no D/D ele cast that for the actual effect of the spell but only for the blast finisher.

So either D/D eles will give up 3 stacks of might or actively use the Churning Earth other then being placeholder.

Nerfing Drake’s Breath I find it overkill, I can barely keep any condition on Hambow Warriors because Cleansing Ire and other condition cleanse classes, so if they don’t do their homework and cleanse, why should we nerf the ability.

They should reduce area might blast finishers to provide 2 stacks of might for 10s. That way, eles could still be good if they stacked might and then proceeded to burst, instead than stacking might and then keeping those 20 stacks indefinitely. Also, considered the huge amount of boons that they have, it’s even quite difficult to remove said stacks.
This change would impact the damage of Hambows too, which would only help the game.

If one of the best ele player says that his class needs a nerf. Maybe ANet should take this serious.

Lupanic.6502:

If one of the best ele player says that his class needs a nerf. Maybe ANet should take this serious.

Read the whole thread. He’s been discredited as having other motives.

This topic was dead, folks. Let’s leave it that way.

DD ele is quite possibly the most OP spec the game has seen yet again. The devs really need to understand that we cant go another 6 months until a nerf, we need nerfs now. DD ele is god tier 1v1, god tier 2v2, and A tier teamfighter. Its incredibly annoying to fight on any class, and works too well in every situation. I personally think we need a revert on water 3 change, a nerf to cele ammy, and a universal 10% decrease on signet of resto (universal meaning PvP and WvW). Also the trait that grants eles perma vigor is too OP, increase ICD to 7 seconds ao its still better than the minors that guard and mes have.

mesmer counters it actually.. and dd cele eles r easy matchup for mesmer in my opinion

most other proffessions got vigor on minor traits, ele has to use up a trait thingy for it (nvm didnt see u adressing that)

celestial amulet is unbalanced , i agree on that

wich water 3? u mean trait or blast finisher on dagger?

Wyrden.4713:

mesmer counters it actually.. and dd cele eles r easy matchup for mesmer in my opinion

Mesmer… Are you serious? Only thing that has a good chance is a necromancer with corrupt boon and even then it is about 50/50. Also, a celestial rifle engineer has a chance of winning, but only if they outplay the elementalist really.

The real problem is that elementalist is not only amazing 1v1, it is arguably just as good as a guardian in team fights. It just does everything at the highest level.

Elitist.8701:

DD ele is quite possibly the most OP spec the game has seen yet again. The devs really need to understand that we cant go another 6 months until a nerf, we need nerfs now. DD ele is god tier 1v1, god tier 2v2, and A tier teamfighter. Its incredibly annoying to fight on any class, and works too well in every situation. I personally think we need a revert on water 3 change, a nerf to cele ammy, and a universal 10% decrease on signet of resto (universal meaning PvP and WvW). Also the trait that grants eles perma vigor is too OP, increase ICD to 7 seconds ao its still better than the minors that guard and mes have.

Why should a major trait be nerfed to be only slightly better than a minor one on another class? 2 Second difference to make up for taking up a trait slot in probably one of the more competitive branches of traits for ele. Not like engineers can’t get perma vigor either.

It is strong, I won’t deny that. But it is reliant on might to take people down so anything that stops might stacking or removes it sends them from a speeding train to sudden stop. You may not know, but before the changes to strength runes and the rise of celestial, ele in general was in a really terrible place and the nerfs you suggest would not just affect D/D celestial eles.

If you don’t play smart, you’re gonna lose to the active play associated with proper might stacking and on demand boons, and this is how it should be. Strip might or stay out of eles fire fields and you can pretty much make them decide to chase you and give up on might stacking or make them waste all their blast finishers getting might and not hitting you with any of them. I toyed around with ele for a while and I was shocked at how many people just don’t understand how to handle it. Like trying to condi-bomb me before I’ve even switched into water or trying to face tank things like firegrab because they think stability keeps them safe from my setups. Eles in general are destroyed by Chill. Even just a few seconds of chill applied after they leave water screws them over hardcore.

Long story short, DD celestial ele is strong, but it also isn’t completely passive play like a lot of other very effective builds, which is why it should be strong. If an ele wastes all their blast finishers and doesn’t even bother trying to hit you with them, then you should have no trouble killing them. But if you just try to bum rush them without even bothering to pay attention to what element they’re in, you probably deserve to lose when 33% of your burst disappears to on demand protection or all your conditions disappear when you bomb them before they use water.

Wyrden.4713:

mesmer counters it actually.. and dd cele eles r easy matchup for mesmer in my opinion

most other proffessions got vigor on minor traits, ele has to use up a trait thingy for it (nvm didnt see u adressing that)

celestial amulet is unbalanced , i agree on that

wich water 3? u mean trait or blast finisher on dagger?

in high level play mesmer does not counter ele. in fact ele wins EVERY SINGLE 1V1 except for THE BEST engis WITH CRATE or the BEST necros SOMETIMES. comprendes? It’s op as kitten.

The issue isn’t ele, if it were we’d see ammy’s other than cele in spvp. The issue is cele, fundamentally, is broken at the moment. It works to make certain hybrid builds strong, ones that can might stack. Axebow, hambow, multiple engi/mes builds that don’t have clever names all become ridiculously strong as well with cele and/or might stacking. The issue is in the might stacking meta and how well that interacts with the “eh” offensive stats of cele. Cele makes ele virtually impossible to kill, while might stacks boost the DPS.

It works so well with d/d Ele because Ele (like war/engi/mes) is naturally geared towards hybrid dps. A lot of attacks (esp fire attune and to some degree earth attune) do both condi/straight up dps application. If you’ve never thought about it, even a low-ish burn tick is quite a bit of dmg. Think, 500-600 dmg per second is going to equal an eviscerate in just a few seconds, and eles will re apply burning quite rapidly. This while they’re doing standard power dps.

W/o cele ele can be strong, but no more op than a lot of other prominent builds.

Necrotize.2974:

Elitist.8701:

DD ele is quite possibly the most OP spec the game has seen yet again. The devs really need to understand that we cant go another 6 months until a nerf, we need nerfs now. DD ele is god tier 1v1, god tier 2v2, and A tier teamfighter. Its incredibly annoying to fight on any class, and works too well in every situation. I personally think we need a revert on water 3 change, a nerf to cele ammy, and a universal 10% decrease on signet of resto (universal meaning PvP and WvW). Also the trait that grants eles perma vigor is too OP, increase ICD to 7 seconds ao its still better than the minors that guard and mes have.

Why should a major trait be nerfed to be only slightly better than a minor one on another class? 2 Second difference to make up for taking up a trait slot in probably one of the more competitive branches of traits for ele. Not like engineers can’t get perma vigor either.

It is strong, I won’t deny that. But it is reliant on might to take people down so anything that stops might stacking or removes it sends them from a speeding train to sudden stop. You may not know, but before the changes to strength runes and the rise of celestial, ele in general was in a really terrible place and the nerfs you suggest would not just affect D/D celestial eles.

If you don’t play smart, you’re gonna lose to the active play associated with proper might stacking and on demand boons, and this is how it should be. Strip might or stay out of eles fire fields and you can pretty much make them decide to chase you and give up on might stacking or make them waste all their blast finishers getting might and not hitting you with any of them. I toyed around with ele for a while and I was shocked at how many people just don’t understand how to handle it. Like trying to condi-bomb me before I’ve even switched into water or trying to face tank things like firegrab because they think stability keeps them safe from my setups. Eles in general are destroyed by Chill. Even just a few seconds of chill applied after they leave water screws them over hardcore.

Long story short, DD celestial ele is strong, but it also isn’t completely passive play like a lot of other very effective builds, which is why it should be strong. If an ele wastes all their blast finishers and doesn’t even bother trying to hit you with them, then you should have no trouble killing them. But if you just try to bum rush them without even bothering to pay attention to what element they’re in, you probably deserve to lose when 33% of your burst disappears to on demand protection or all your conditions disappear when you bomb them before they use water.

I’m sorry that youre a subpar ele going against subpar players. but in the top of competitive d/d ele is beyond over the top.

Booms.2594:

Wyrden.4713:

mesmer counters it actually.. and dd cele eles r easy matchup for mesmer in my opinion

most other proffessions got vigor on minor traits, ele has to use up a trait thingy for it (nvm didnt see u adressing that)

celestial amulet is unbalanced , i agree on that

wich water 3? u mean trait or blast finisher on dagger?

in high level play mesmer does not counter ele. in fact ele wins EVERY SINGLE 1V1 except for THE BEST engis WITH CRATE or the BEST necros SOMETIMES. comprendes? It’s op as kitten.

ele without might hits like a wet noodle, and mesmer is just spamming boon removals > ele has no real chance to stack might or regen a lot passively.

i am not saying its not op, just that the op is overreacting

DD ele is completely fine. The real broken class is mesmer.

Wyrden.4713:

Booms.2594:

Wyrden.4713:

mesmer counters it actually.. and dd cele eles r easy matchup for mesmer in my opinion

most other proffessions got vigor on minor traits, ele has to use up a trait thingy for it (nvm didnt see u adressing that)

celestial amulet is unbalanced , i agree on that

wich water 3? u mean trait or blast finisher on dagger?

in high level play mesmer does not counter ele. in fact ele wins EVERY SINGLE 1V1 except for THE BEST engis WITH CRATE or the BEST necros SOMETIMES. comprendes? It’s op as kitten.

ele without might hits like a wet noodle, and mesmer is just spamming boon removals > ele has no real chance to stack might or regen a lot passively.

i am not saying its not op, just that the op is overreacting

he’s not overreacting. ele is so far better than every other class its not even funny.

Booms.2594:

Wyrden.4713:

Booms.2594:

Wyrden.4713:

mesmer counters it actually.. and dd cele eles r easy matchup for mesmer in my opinion

most other proffessions got vigor on minor traits, ele has to use up a trait thingy for it (nvm didnt see u adressing that)

celestial amulet is unbalanced , i agree on that

wich water 3? u mean trait or blast finisher on dagger?

in high level play mesmer does not counter ele. in fact ele wins EVERY SINGLE 1V1 except for THE BEST engis WITH CRATE or the BEST necros SOMETIMES. comprendes? It’s op as kitten.

ele without might hits like a wet noodle, and mesmer is just spamming boon removals > ele has no real chance to stack might or regen a lot passively.

i am not saying its not op, just that the op is overreacting

he’s not overreacting. ele is so far better than every other class its not even funny.

You lost all credibility with that one. d/d would be completely on par with everything else with just a few small nerfs. They are probably the strongest build right now, but not by much. They certainly aren’t “so far better than every other class its not even funny” levels.

Another one of those thread? The solution is known already improve boon removal and boon priority. Nerfing ele,cele or might will affect another spec,class,party negatively.

Yes shatter mesmer handle celestial ele fine,only melee focused zerker with poor boon removal struggles. What is your conquest (not pvp) spec??? Need new modes to balance meta.

Booms.2594:

Necrotize.2974:

Elitist.8701:

DD ele is quite possibly the most OP spec the game has seen yet again. The devs really need to understand that we cant go another 6 months until a nerf, we need nerfs now. DD ele is god tier 1v1, god tier 2v2, and A tier teamfighter. Its incredibly annoying to fight on any class, and works too well in every situation. I personally think we need a revert on water 3 change, a nerf to cele ammy, and a universal 10% decrease on signet of resto (universal meaning PvP and WvW). Also the trait that grants eles perma vigor is too OP, increase ICD to 7 seconds ao its still better than the minors that guard and mes have.

Why should a major trait be nerfed to be only slightly better than a minor one on another class? 2 Second difference to make up for taking up a trait slot in probably one of the more competitive branches of traits for ele. Not like engineers can’t get perma vigor either.

It is strong, I won’t deny that. But it is reliant on might to take people down so anything that stops might stacking or removes it sends them from a speeding train to sudden stop. You may not know, but before the changes to strength runes and the rise of celestial, ele in general was in a really terrible place and the nerfs you suggest would not just affect D/D celestial eles.

If you don’t play smart, you’re gonna lose to the active play associated with proper might stacking and on demand boons, and this is how it should be. Strip might or stay out of eles fire fields and you can pretty much make them decide to chase you and give up on might stacking or make them waste all their blast finishers getting might and not hitting you with any of them. I toyed around with ele for a while and I was shocked at how many people just don’t understand how to handle it. Like trying to condi-bomb me before I’ve even switched into water or trying to face tank things like firegrab because they think stability keeps them safe from my setups. Eles in general are destroyed by Chill. Even just a few seconds of chill applied after they leave water screws them over hardcore.

Long story short, DD celestial ele is strong, but it also isn’t completely passive play like a lot of other very effective builds, which is why it should be strong. If an ele wastes all their blast finishers and doesn’t even bother trying to hit you with them, then you should have no trouble killing them. But if you just try to bum rush them without even bothering to pay attention to what element they’re in, you probably deserve to lose when 33% of your burst disappears to on demand protection or all your conditions disappear when you bomb them before they use water.

I’m sorry that youre a subpar ele going against subpar players. but in the top of competitive d/d ele is beyond over the top.

And I’m sorry that you think the entire game should be balanced around top tier competitive play. Point is, not all players are top tier, not all matches are competitive, and wide sweeping nerfs to appeal to those are not the answer. Whenever a new meta arises, all these doom and gloom people show up saying that blank is super OP, impossible to beat, god tier and requires no skill to be good. When people offer insight on counters they either ignore it or claim the person has no idea what they’re talking about because they can’t possibly be skilled enough to know what they’re saying. Everyone always suggests nerfing things, partially to equalize the playing field, and I’d hazard a guess to say partially because they’re kittened off they got beat by something one too many times. If the latter had no impact on these things, we’d see more threads intent on raising other classes up to the level of the meta, not tearing down those who control it.

But, as the people before my have pointed out or hinted at, most people who are convinced something is OP is unlikely to change their opinion and won’t be satisfied until it is nerfed. Any counters people provide are ignored and all advice is met with sarcasm, rudeness or just ignored as well.

give rtl a 60 sec cd

ele is now fixed

Sounds like someone just had a few matches where they were woefully stomped hard by a few DD elementalists. Honestly, I don’t get the animosity towards this build. I’ve seen people get wrecked hard as Cel Ele – just like every other spec out there. If you aren’t smart. You die. Simple.

Some freaking geniuses in this thread. THERE ISNT A kittenING CLASS IN THE GAME THAT CAN COUNTER THE BOON SPAM OF AN ELE. Necrotize Im not going to read your walls of text but really the game should be balanced at the highest level. Look at LoL, look at any other succesful competitive game. And half of your points arent even valid. Thats all Ill say for now, too late at night.

I can’t help but be reminded of this video every time someone cries about how OP elementalists are (or necromancers for that matter), lol:

This Elitist is a curious fellow who just seems to hate eles for some reason. I distinctly remember him saying in another thread that he can beat every dd ele 1v1, but even then they are absolute god tier at 1v1, makes sense. Guess that means either his thief build is even more op, or he is some kind of godly player and everyone who has ever played ele is a scrub. Sure ele is the better team fighter, but thief has better mobility, allowing it to easily +1 a fight or disengage from any match up it chooses so no reason for either class to necessarily be better in a 1v1.

On another note a lot of people misconstrue the dd eles 1v1 capabilities. They are very strong 1v1 on a point, off point they are ok, but the list of builds that beat them grows substantially. This makes sense considering that they only have short range attacks and if the opponent forced to stay on a point then they can’t kite the ele. On point ele does beat shatter mesmer which is balanced because if a melee (basically) spec can’t beat a ranged spec that is forced into melee range then the melee spec is completely hard countered. This goes for every melee spec vs every ranged spec, unless one spec has major strengths/weaknesses in other areas of the game (mobility, support, etc.) Once the mesmer is allowed to kite in an open field, then the fight is much more balanced and slightly favors the mes in my opinion. If we get any game modes other than conquest, dd ele will still be decent 1v1 but will be far from “God Tier.”

One last thing, I would say the dd weapon set is possibly the best designed weapon set in the game and nerfing it out of the meta as op seems intent on doing would be very sad. Every attack has a clear distinct animation where all the major damage sources can be read and dodged. Every skill is useful but all for different uses, and none of them are over powered individually (aside from perhaps drakes breath, but it has a clear animation that can easily be dodged, or you can just cleanse the single condition it applies). The only passive procs it has are renewing stamina, and soothing wave (not always used). The build is actually one of the least passive builds in the game, with the sole exception of signet of restoration which isn’t even particularly good for a main heal skill but the other 3 heals available have MAJOR weaknesses making them really not viable for a build like the standard dd bruiser.

Tldr: dd ele may be a bit too strong right now, however I feel like op greatly exaggerates how strong it is and wants it nerfed to the point non viability again which is a terrible idea given how well the set promotes both active play and active counter play.

Elitist.8701:

Some freaking geniuses in this thread. THERE ISNT A kittenING CLASS IN THE GAME THAT CAN COUNTER THE BOON SPAM OF AN ELE. Necrotize Im not going to read your walls of text but really the game should be balanced at the highest level. Look at LoL, look at any other succesful competitive game. And half of your points arent even valid. Thats all Ill say for now, too late at night.

Has on demand boon access, not boon spam. Ele is a boon driven class, that is why boon duration is tied to their class mechanic trait tree. Balancing a game around only the highest levels of play makes it so they’re not balancing it based on the majority anymore and I think it’s fairly obvious that isn’t how things should be done.

You honestly haven’t offered much in the ways of constructive argument, but instead say “ELE IS OP CAUSE THIS” and then proceed to ignore/disregard everything said to you. Every class has counters. Shatter mesmer IMO does a good job at stopping elementalist b/c their burst removes the on demand protection that eles would normally use to counter burst. Necros wait until ele leaves water and corrupt boon+chill to screw up rotations.

But I’m gonna guess that 2 paragraphs is too long for you and I’ll get some kitten answer telling me I’m stupid or unskilled or whatever and that “ELE ISH SUPER OP GOD TIER 1v5 EASY MODE NO COUNTERS”.

ArthurDent.9538:

~Snip~

Doubt he’ll read it but honestly if he’s judging the entire thing from a thief’s perspective it’d make a lot of sense. D/D ele excels at staying in one place and dealing damage whereas in higher levels of play thief assumes the role of roaming and shifting fights, which would be difficult with an ele fighting on point giving allies boons.

I thought Ranger Longbow was the most OP? memories are short on the forums

I actually think D/D ele is ok, It’s a lot better than it used to be long ago… I think the problem with eles and engies in general is celestial ammy, get to much defense for the offered offense imo.

Most D/D eles can be beaten 1v1 but depending on the spec you kinda get forced off point and spend forever trying to get it back… If anything I’d argue it’s OP for the game type but in all fairness I do believe it’s more or less fine.