Guild Wars 2

TooBz.3065:

The point is that there is a theoretical number of trades (I don’t know the number) that would allow normal players to sell all the goods they acquire but would restrict the ability of other players to make a fortune flipping.

From that basis, we can discuss whether this is a good idea or a terrible one (I honestly don’t know). But I don’t want to nitpick over the number because we’re not implementing anything.

Regarding how ANet wants things to be. We haven’t seen the trumpeting about the great economy we got when the game launched. In fact they have been silent on this regard. I think the economy is stable, that doesn’t mean its optimal.

There is no magic number. Either it is too low and creates a barrier for some players, or it’s too high and is irrelevant. Either way it requires a lot of work and adjustment to solve a problem that a few players see but Anet does not. If they saw it as a problem then they would do something about it. But the more trades happen, the more money is removed from the system. The more CoF runs happen, the more money is created from thin air. The problem lies on the other side of the equation, not the TP.

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Profit does not come at the expense of anyone else, unless it is taken by force. By the way, it may be unfun for you, but don’t place your subjective interpretations of that word above everyone else’s.

I am not objecting your right to flip. What I am objecting is the fact that flipping is the only way to get ahead currently. It generates way too much gold compared to other activities and it needs to be addressed.

Required read if you are going to suggest flipping is at the expense of other.

Hell Avenger.7021:

OK buddy look, I WILL EXPLAIN with a simple example to make you understand why trading cause no detriment to anyone. It is price discovery in practice.

Assume a normal market of Good A:

Assuming TP fee is 10% for simplicity.
Assume there are constant demand for this good.

Current Ask (listing) Price is $10/unit.
Current Bid Price is $ 5/Unit.

You the trader see this opportunity, and you buy at $5.01. You resale the item at $9.99. You effectively lowered the price for the good for everyone. NOW, if enough traders come in and do the same tactic. They will buy at $5.02, and resale the item at $9.98. KEEP ON GOING.

Eventually, they will reach an equilibrium price. The TRUE Value (taking into account of the fees) of the item. WAIT A MINUTE, did the price just increase for Bid price? Yes, it did, and it should. WHY you ask? The bid price was too low, people gave a lowball bid price (happen very often when you buy a house), that is a price that the guy can make an arbitrage profit. However, at the equilibrium price there is no arbitrage profit.

The thing you are complaining about (drumroll): NOT ENOUGH TRADERS, thus there are profit!

Fungalfoot.7213:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Profit does not come at the expense of anyone else, unless it is taken by force. By the way, it may be unfun for you, but don’t place your subjective interpretations of that word above everyone else’s.

I am not objecting your right to flip. What I am objecting is the fact that flipping is the only way to get ahead currently. It generates way too much gold compared to other activities and it needs to be addressed.

It doesn’t generate any gold, and actually removes gold from the game.

However, if you’re arguing that flipping is the fastest way to make money, you’re probably right.

We disagree as to whether or not this is an actual problem. For me, I know that when more people attempt to flip, profit margins will dwindle and it won’t really be as fast as a method anymore. The entry barrier which discourages more people from doing it is knowledge. That entry barrier is what keeps it so profitable for those that do it.

But I have nothing against profit, and I don’t want to spend the time overcoming that entry barrier.

Fungalfoot.7213:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Profit does not come at the expense of anyone else, unless it is taken by force. By the way, it may be unfun for you, but don’t place your subjective interpretations of that word above everyone else’s.

I am not objecting your right to flip. What I am objecting is the fact that flipping is the only way to get ahead currently. It generates way too much gold compared to other activities and it needs to be addressed.

Unless you can somehow cap the amount that any one person can make off the TP, you can’t fix this.

Here’s why. People can’t farm everything they want. They can only farm somethings. For example, there’s no reasonable way to farm a sigil of bloodlust. If you want one you go to the TP (or make a mystic axe, but don’t nitpick)

So if other areas are more rewarding people will either have more gold (inflationary) or more goods (deflationary) or both. Assume stability, this means that more volume will flow through the TP. As more volume flows through the TP the flippers will make more money (cash flow).

Amun Ra.6435:

LyricDawnhagen.7803:

SynfulChaot.3169:

We are limited in profit we can make from all other sources in the game. Why should the TP be immune from the limitations ANet has been quite free with applying to all other money-making methods?

I just had to respond to this fallacy. There is nothing that limits the amount of profit you can make from other sources in the game. ArenaNet has not set a magic number and said that you can earn this much and no more by playing the game.

Any limit you might be hitting (if indeed you are hitting one) is that there is a limit on how much wealth can be farmed out of a small areas of the game over a short period of time. But that is just like the real world. How many apples can you pick from a single tree (or from the whole orchard) before you have picked all the apples that are available. Move on to the next tree.

So the only real limit to making money in the game (or in real life for that matter) is your ingenuity and dedication to pursue your quest for profit.

Have you even played GW2 lately? I mean in the last few months? I would have to assume you haven’t or dedicate you time to standing in L.A. in front of the TP.

I play almost daily and spend almost no time in Lions Arch. I am out in the Living Story or exploring zones and generally having a blast playing the game.

I do not understand what you are trying to allude to. If you have some specific examples of income caps that are in the game, please share them with me. I have never hit one and I have never talked to anyone that has ever hit an ArenaNet imposed maximum income cap.

I will say I have heard people whining on the forums that they cannot farm some small corner of a zone for hours on end without hitting the diminished return limit for that area but nothing is stopping them from making money in the game but their own self imposed limitations. Remember you can only extract just so much wealth from an area over a short amount of time. The solution is to cultivate OTHER areas.

Several misconceptions in this thread

1. Flipping does not “generate” gold. It destroys it through transaction fees. There’s no gold introduced to the economy through flipping, hence there’s no danger of inflation.
2. Flippers earn their money by doing people a service by a. giving players who want to sell instantly, a higher buy order and b. giving players who want to buy instantly a lower sell order. The buyers/sellers who deal with flippers are knowingly losing gold for convenience.
3. Flippers do not increase or decrease prices. It simply drives prices to the middle point between buy/sell orders.

Hell Avenger.7021:

OK buddy look, I WILL EXPLAIN with a simple example to make you understand why trading cause no detriment to anyone. It is price discovery in practice.

Assume a normal market of Good A:

Assuming TP fee is 10% for simplicity.
Assume there are constant demand for this good.

Current Ask (listing) Price is $10/unit.
Current Bid Price is $ 5/Unit.

You the trader see this opportunity, and you buy at $5.01. You resale the item at $9.99. You effectively lowered the price for the good for everyone. NOW, if enough traders come in and do the same tactic. They will buy at $5.02, and resale the item at $9.98. KEEP ON GOING.

Eventually, they will reach an equilibrium price. The TRUE Value (taking into account of the fees) of the item. WAIT A MINUTE, did the price just increase for Bid price? Yes, it did, and it should. WHY you ask? The bid price was too low, people gave a lowball bid price (happen very often when you buy a house), that is a price that the guy can make an arbitrage profit. However, at the equilibrium price there is no arbitrage profit.

The thing you are complaining about (drumroll): NOT ENOUGH TRADERS, thus there are profit!

Dude, try to be a little less hostile. All I wanted was an explanation, which until now you refused to provide.

I do think that without flippers the markets would more or less find their own price equilibrium, but you may be speeding the process.

So… on to concentration of wealth. Kidding.

I will be honest. This whole thread is basically from the COF nerf. There was never such a big debate, until COF nerf is announced and being acted upon next week. Jealousy make people cry, they want to drag everyone to their level.

Flippers earn their money by turning the impatience of other players into a cold hard coin. The trick is offering enough to buy an item so a player decides it is not worth the wait to list it themselves and sell it for a price that again is attractive enough to discourage a player from putting in a buy order while still making a profit.

A player also have to realize that selling a large quantity of an item to a buyer directly will lead to a buy order for any of that item that wasn’t sold at that previous bid, which is why if you look at some of the trading graphs the lowest sell price bounces down to just above the highest sell price.

Example: Ectos are 19s sell, 16s buy. I dump 250 ectos onto a buyer(s) for 16s but they only want 200. Now the lowest sell is 50@16s and the highest buy may have dropped only 1c to 15.99s. Someone buys the rest at 16s and the sell price bounces back up again to 19s (assuming nobody filled the gap in the meantime). So you have to do a little research to make sure you aren’t pricing your wares at one of these oversold, overbought prices.

Hell Avenger.7021:

I will be honest. This whole thread is basically from the COF nerf. There was never such a big debate, until COF nerf is announced and being acted upon next week. Jealousy make people cry, they want to drag everyone to their level.

Actually, I don’t flip or farm COF. I just like to argue.

TooBz.3065:

Dude, try to be a little less hostile. All I wanted was an explanation, which until now you refused to provide.

I do think that without flippers the markets would more or less find their own price equilibrium, but you may be speeding the process.

So… on to concentration of wealth. Kidding.

I will say that extreme concentration of wealth can lead to stagnation in real world markets, but in game concentration doesn’t have a similar effect since money is being created out of thin air all the time by playing the game. Having high concentrations of wealth will drive up the price of luxury items though and since luxury items are end game content it would probably be in the best interest of the game if some expensive gold sinks were added that targeted the ultra wealthy.

I’m thinking real estate…

Ursan.7846:

Several misconceptions in this thread

1. Flipping does not “generate” gold. It destroys it through transaction fees. There’s no gold introduced to the economy through flipping, hence there’s no danger of inflation.
2. Flippers earn their money by doing people a service by a. giving players who want to sell instantly, a higher buy order and b. giving players who want to buy instantly a lower sell order. The buyers/sellers who deal with flippers are knowingly losing gold for convenience.
3. Flippers do not increase or decrease prices. It simply drives prices to the middle point between buy/sell orders.

these points are accurate, the problem is.

flipping profit is limited by 3 things, skill of the flipper, capital, and volume of sales
every other activity is limited by time, supply and demand.

I think the problem is the liquidity flippers offer is not worth the effects of having such a large disparity in earning potentials per time invested in a game.

Fungalfoot.7213:

mtpelion.4562:

That’s like asking why corn farmers are still wasting their time growing corn when they could be trading ethanol futures. The answer is that they like growing corn, they know growing corn, and they have no interest in not growing corn.

Some farmers may switch to trading, and some may add a trading portfolio to their earnings, but most farmers are going to continue to farm because they don’t have the desire or knowledge to get into the trading meta.

You’re comparing the real world of logistics to an MMO in which the middle man serves no function whatsoever. In the real world the corn grower is reliant on the middle man to get his goods to the public and the public is likewise reliant on the middle man to get the goods. It’s a symbiotic relationship. Flippers however are purely parasitic entities and I really don’t see why that should be rewarded over actually playing the game.

Surely ArenaNet didn’t intend for us all to huddle up in Lion’s Arch to progress?

I disagree. The middle man does have a purpose in our Trading Post. And it is actually a very important purpose. The middle man is willing to pay coin NOW for delivery of an item.

A seller (does not matter what they are selling) has two options when they approach the Trading Post with their newly dropped Sword of Awesome. They can post it for sale as whatever price they believe it is worth and then wait for someone to buy it at that price. Or they can sell it someone with a buy order for the amount of coin that the buyer is willing to offer. The choice is strictly in the hands of the seller. They pick which coin amount is worth more to them.

The seller can choose to sell to the middle man for immediate coin or they set their own price and wait till the item sells. It is their choice to take X amount now or get Y amount sometime in the future. But in both of these scenarios it is the SELLER that makes the decision of what to do with their product.

So the middle man serves a very important function in the game (and in the real world). If every single seller was more interested in waiting on their money from the sale of their items, then the middle men would not exist. They would have nothing to offer the market. But as long as sellers are more interested in gold NOW than in a bit more gold later, middle men will have a place, and a useful function, in the economy.

LyricDawnhagen.7803:

Amun Ra.6435:

LyricDawnhagen.7803:

SynfulChaot.3169:

We are limited in profit we can make from all other sources in the game. Why should the TP be immune from the limitations ANet has been quite free with applying to all other money-making methods?

I just had to respond to this fallacy. There is nothing that limits the amount of profit you can make from other sources in the game. ArenaNet has not set a magic number and said that you can earn this much and no more by playing the game.

Any limit you might be hitting (if indeed you are hitting one) is that there is a limit on how much wealth can be farmed out of a small areas of the game over a short period of time. But that is just like the real world. How many apples can you pick from a single tree (or from the whole orchard) before you have picked all the apples that are available. Move on to the next tree.

So the only real limit to making money in the game (or in real life for that matter) is your ingenuity and dedication to pursue your quest for profit.

Have you even played GW2 lately? I mean in the last few months? I would have to assume you haven’t or dedicate you time to standing in L.A. in front of the TP.

I play almost daily and spend almost no time in Lions Arch. I am out in the Living Story or exploring zones and generally having a blast playing the game.

I do not understand what you are trying to allude to. If you have some specific examples of income caps that are in the game, please share them with me. I have never hit one and I have never talked to anyone that has ever hit an ArenaNet imposed maximum income cap.

I will say I have heard people whining on the forums that they cannot farm some small corner of a zone for hours on end without hitting the diminished return limit for that area but nothing is stopping them from making money in the game but their own self imposed limitations. Remember you can only extract just so much wealth from an area over a short amount of time. The solution is to cultivate OTHER areas.

./sigh

phys.7689:

these points are accurate, the problem is.

flipping profit is limited by 3 things, skill of the flipper, capital, and volume of sales
every other activity is limited by time, supply and demand.

I think the problem is the liquidity flippers offer is not worth the effects of having such a large disparity in earning potentials per time invested in a game.

What are the pros/cons of liquidity flippers offer?
Pros: high volume of transactions, buyers/sellers will buy/sell their wares faster
Prices are more stable, buy/sell orders are closer to equilibrium price.

What are the pro/cons of a large disparity in earning potential of flippers?
Pros: There’s a great, skill-based method to earn money in game.
Cons: He’s way more rich than you are.

Now, is that a problem? If you believe in wealth equality, perhaps. But ultimately, the conclusion is that flippers do not actually “harm” the economy in any way, shape or form. You can complain about wealth disparity, that is your subjective opinion. But to argue somehow that flippers somehow damage the economy is to be simply misinformed (as many have tried to argue in this thread.)

Fungalfoot.7213:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Profit does not come at the expense of anyone else, unless it is taken by force. By the way, it may be unfun for you, but don’t place your subjective interpretations of that word above everyone else’s.

I am not objecting your right to flip. What I am objecting is the fact that flipping is the only way to get ahead currently. It generates way too much gold compared to other activities and it needs to be addressed.

flipping dont generat any gold at all it takes gold from the system given you only get profit if a player buys the item and then to buy the item that player needs to have gold and that comes from somewhere its generated out of nothing(events, mobs or something else)
farming on the other hand generats money out of nothing.

I will try not to argue about if flipping is ‘evil’ or ‘helpful’, since people here will clearly not agree on one or the other. Not to mention finding it out will not really solve anything, it’s like that sick old argument of ‘is homosexuality ’natural’ or not?‘. It has been here, will be here, will simply not go away, and we will have to deal with it, no point in arguing over it.
Also, before anyone calls ’stop justifying yourself you filthy capitalist monster!’, I do not flip

The problem OP has is that ‘playing the TP is more effective than farming’, if I understand correctly.

The way I see it, the reason why flipping is more profitable than farming is simple. There are a lot of farmers and ‘regular’ players, but not as many power flippers.

Lot of people who don’t play the TP tend to want to just sell quick, buy quick, and forget about the whole mathematics mess, so they can get back to killing. They can sell to buy orders, or buy from sell listings, knowing that you are gonna lose a bit of coins. But they don’t care, they are willing to pay a little extra for the convenience. All these little bit of coins willingly spent adds up to a huge huge profit for the flippers, just because fewer people go through the trouble of collecting those piles of coins.

So, it just happens. Nothing you can do about it. Yeah, I know that feeling like you are forced to flip sucks, but it’s like how waking up early sucks, it will happen and you cannot blame a specific person for it. Okay that analogy was bad, but anyway. If there were more people interested in power flipping than playing other areas of the game, flipping would not have been as profitable i guess. (So the way to make flipping less effective is to actually….. encourage more people to flip? XD)

And I honestly do not see the big damage it does to the economy in any meaningful scale. Flippers can’t either accelerate inflation, nor arbitrarily set a price point where they please. They can only pull buy price and sell price closer to each other, only at a speed the community allows them to, which is going to eventually happen anyway.

Let’s just leave it be, it is reasonably easy to make enough money to get anything other than precursors anyway.

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Fungalfoot.7213:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Profit does not come at the expense of anyone else, unless it is taken by force. By the way, it may be unfun for you, but don’t place your subjective interpretations of that word above everyone else’s.

I am not objecting your right to flip. What I am objecting is the fact that flipping is the only way to get ahead currently. It generates way too much gold compared to other activities and it needs to be addressed.

It doesn’t generate any gold, and actually removes gold from the game.

However, if you’re arguing that flipping is the fastest way to make money, you’re probably right.

We disagree as to whether or not this is an actual problem. For me, I know that when more people attempt to flip, profit margins will dwindle and it won’t really be as fast as a method anymore. The entry barrier which discourages more people from doing it is knowledge. That entry barrier is what keeps it so profitable for those that do it.

But I have nothing against profit, and I don’t want to spend the time overcoming that entry barrier.

So you essentially admit that flipping is best way to make money. You dont need to understand the mathematics and science of equation behavior then.

Simply, if 1 method of gaining rewards far outweighs other methods, and this method primarily involves only one small facet of the game, do you not think this would put people not participating in said facet at a disadvantage.
Do you think the majority of people who dont really want to participate in this facet would be dissatisfied if they have to compete with the people who get greater rewards at a better rate?

Once again here is the problem.
Earnings outside TP are substantially lower than earnings in TP. earnings in TP have limits many order of magnitude higher than earnings outside tp.

This means TP earning players will always have a strong economic advantage over non TP earners.

Since tp earners are actually the minority of players, this leads to much disatifsaction with the economy

Hell Avenger.7021:

I will be honest. This whole thread is basically from the COF nerf. There was never such a big debate, until COF nerf is announced and being acted upon next week. Jealousy make people cry, they want to drag everyone to their level.

I think someone has some deeper issues that need looking into…

Behellagh.1468:

Flippers earn their money by turning the impatience of other players into a cold hard coin. The trick is offering enough to buy an item so a player decides it is not worth the wait to list it themselves and sell it for a price that again is attractive enough to discourage a player from putting in a buy order.

This is common in the real world as well. Gas stations added a selection of food and other goods and became convenience stores. The prices for the groceries there are considerably higher than in a supermarket, but the convenience stores are open later, they are more accessible, and when you stop to get gas and want a snack or need to pick up something for dinner it’s… convenient… to shop there.

Likewise, you can buy a 2-liter bottle of soda for 99 cents or a 20-ounce bottle for $1.50, but people grab the easy to handle smaller bottle several times a day instead of planning ahead and keeping a supply on hand for less money.

Stores don’t put items on sale because they are run by good-hearted people who don’t want to make evil profits from unsuspecting customers. They do it because people will buy MORE stuff when it’s on sale than they will when it’s the same price all the time. JC Penny learned this the hard way, they slashed prices every day and did away with sales and people didn’t get excited about it. Why buy now when it will be the same price tomorrow?

Yid.3024:

I will try not to argue about if flipping is ‘evil’ or ‘helpful’, since people here will clearly not agree on one or the other. Not to mention finding it out will not really solve anything, it’s like that sick old argument of ‘is homosexuality ’natural’ or not?‘. It has been here, will be here, will simply not go away, and we will have to deal with it, no point in arguing over it.
Also, before anyone calls ’stop justifying yourself you filthy capitalist monster!’, I do not flip

The problem OP has is that ‘playing the TP is more effective than farming’, if I understand correctly.

The way I see it, the reason why flipping is more profitable than farming is simple. There are a lot of farmers and ‘regular’ players, but not as many power flippers.

Lot of people who don’t play the TP tend to want to just sell quick, buy quick, and forget about the whole mathematics mess, so they can get back to killing. They can sell to buy orders, or buy from sell listings, knowing that you are gonna lose a bit of coins. But they don’t care, they are willing to pay a little extra for the convenience. All these little bit of coins willingly spent adds up to a huge huge profit for the flippers, just because fewer people go through the trouble of collecting those piles of coins.

So, it just happens. Nothing you can do about it. Yeah, I know that feeling like you are forced to flip sucks, but it’s like how waking up early sucks, it will happen and you cannot blame a specific person for it. Okay that analogy was bad, but anyway. If there were more people interested in power flipping than playing other areas of the game, flipping would not have been as profitable i guess. (So the way to make flipping less effective is to actually….. encourage more people to flip? XD)

And I honestly do not see the big damage it does to the economy in any meaningful scale. Flippers can’t either accelerate inflation, nor arbitrarily set a price point where they please. They can only pull buy price and sell price closer to each other, only at a speed the community allows them to, which is going to eventually happen anyway.

Let’s just leave it be, it is reasonably easy to make enough money to get anything other than precursors anyway.

the problem lies in the fact that flippers are substantially richer than everyone else, and than everyone else can hope to be. This means they are the ones who highly desired items are marketed to. The price point of desirable items are incredibly effected by the amount of money only 10% of the population has.

tolunart.2095:

Behellagh.1468:

Flippers earn their money by turning the impatience of other players into a cold hard coin. The trick is offering enough to buy an item so a player decides it is not worth the wait to list it themselves and sell it for a price that again is attractive enough to discourage a player from putting in a buy order.

This is common in the real world as well. Gas stations added a selection of food and other goods and became convenience stores. The prices for the groceries there are considerably higher than in a supermarket, but the convenience stores are open later, they are more accessible, and when you stop to get gas and want a snack or need to pick up something for dinner it’s… convenient… to shop there.

Likewise, you can buy a 2-liter bottle of soda for 99 cents or a 20-ounce bottle for $1.50, but people grab the easy to handle smaller bottle several times a day instead of planning ahead and keeping a supply on hand for less money.

Stores don’t put items on sale because they are run by good-hearted people who don’t want to make evil profits from unsuspecting customers. They do it because people will buy MORE stuff when it’s on sale than they will when it’s the same price all the time. JC Penny learned this the hard way, they slashed prices every day and did away with sales and people didn’t get excited about it. Why buy now when it will be the same price tomorrow?

But, is this best for the games survival in general? Will unhappy players keep playing simply because the games economy gets extra attention?

Or will these players simply leave for the next game that comes out so they can have their shinnies?

Anet can only force this “real world simulation” so much before players will leave.

It was already mentioned earlier in the thread, but it bears repeating: Items are worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for it.

If you think that a flipper is buying an item and “marking it up” you are wrong—plain and simple. They are simply buying an underpriced item and relisting it closer to this “actual” item price. If the flipper relists that item at a price that is too high, it won’t sell and they are still out the TP tax.

To the folks that are complaining about an across-the-board nerf to farming, why are you worried? The majority of players could not be considered “flippers” and if every farmer is suddenly making a lot less gold, the price of items has no choice but to fall as well. And you still get the sweet sweet schadenfreude of seeing someone eat the TP tax on 1k+ gold items that will likely never sell at the price that is completely out of reach.

If flipping is truly the absolute best and fastest way to make gold, then why aren’t you doing it? You don’t deserve any sympathy for not learning how to do it because there are at least a dozen articles explaining it all over the internet. Complaining about something that has exactly zero physical barrier to entry is simply ludicrous.

I don’t think anyone is saying that flippers are marking items up. That’s a strawman.

There are two discussions going more of less simultaneously. First is about flipping itself. Is it good or bad for the economy. The second is about the concentration of wealth and the effect that this has on the game.

The reason they are related is that flipping is the way that the wealth gets concentrated.

Speaking only for myself. I don’t do it because it’s not fun. There are lots of activities in this game that I refuse to do because I don’t enjoy them. Flipping is one of them. I play this game to enjoy myself – period. If I don’t enjoy it I don’t do it. Honestly, you don’t need money in this game at all if you don’t buy into the grind, grind, grind, bullkitten that ANet keeps pushing.

emeraldtryst.8491:

It was already mentioned earlier in the thread, but it bears repeating: Items are worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for it.

If you think that a flipper is buying an item and “marking it up” you are wrong—plain and simple. They are simply buying an underpriced item and relisting it closer to this “actual” item price. If the flipper relists that item at a price that is too high, it won’t sell and they are still out the TP tax.

To the folks that are complaining about an across-the-board nerf to farming, why are you worried? The majority of players could not be considered “flippers” and if every farmer is suddenly making a lot less gold, the price of items has no choice but to fall as well. And you still get the sweet sweet schadenfreude of seeing someone eat the TP tax on 1k+ gold items that will likely never sell at the price that is completely out of reach.

If flipping is truly the absolute best and fastest way to make gold, then why aren’t you doing it? You don’t deserve any sympathy for not learning how to do it because there are at least a dozen articles explaining it all over the internet. Complaining about something that has exactly zero physical barrier to entry is simply ludicrous.

I think about the long term…

Now rewrite…

Hell Avenger.7021:

I see a lot of people are using “ethics” as way to justify TP trading as unethical. Here, I think it is ethical and create value. Your ethical value and mine are different. Don’t impose your ethical value, when it is often mixed up with jealousy.

LyricDawnhagen.7803:

So the middle man serves a very important function in the game (and in the real world). If every single seller was more interested in waiting on their money from the sale of their items, then the middle men would not exist. They would have nothing to offer the market. But as long as sellers are more interested in gold NOW than in a bit more gold later, middle men will have a place, and a useful function, in the economy.

Exactly. There is a supply of skelk tails on the TP for sale, the lowest sell order is 10s. I have the highest buy order at 5s. The skelk farmer comes in with his bags full and wants to turn them into cash. He could sell them to me for 5s each, or undersell the lowest available price and make almost double the money, 9.99s each.

Why, then, does he sell them to me for half price? An hour later my buy orders are filled and I list them for 9.99s and make a profit even after TP fees. And why do they sell after another hour, when the buyers could simply put in their own buy order at 5.01s?

Because people want the stuff NOW. They don’t want to go away and do other things for a few hours, then come back to collect their stuff. They’ll take less gold now, or pay more to get the tails now, rather than wait for someone else to come along. I have patience, I could list the tails at 11s each and while they won’t sell immediately, in a few days I’ll have made a bigger profit than the one who sold them to me for fast cash.

The whole debate on this seems to be coming from completely different sides, and I wonder how they’ve become relevant at all.

Lets take the OP’s post on the issue, about why it is that capital gains in the game are fair when farming is reduced constantly. When I see this, I have a very perplexing thought:

“…fair? Where does ‘fair’ come into this?” Something I’ve understood for a very long time is that the principles of economics are not arbitrary. They are a force of nature, a fact of life, the inevitable derivative of from studying the essence of money and trade. Like Pi and the sky being blue, these are things you have to live with. The fact is that capital gains makes the most money, because it grows wealth on a percentage of the whole, and does this through prediction and wit through negotiating supply and demand. End of discussion.

So to that end, whenever I see something like the OP, I keep thinking in my internet saturated brain “ur not doin it rite!”. Disliking the fact that capital gains makes more money is akin to disliking the the fact that the sky is blue. This isn’t about personal play styles being rewarding based on ethics or anything like that. It is a fact of free trade. If you don’t like it, then the only way to deal with it is to eliminate free trade all together. This also brings in the next question on ethics, like why it is that farming has to be allowed to produce wealth, whereas general play is not guaranteed this.

The second thing I’ve learned about economy is that the market adapts. I see calls for different limits on trades and imposing maximums and outright price manipulation on Anets part, and none of these will work in the slightest to curb capital gains. I know this, because in real life they never worked. Instead, the economy becomes based around these limitations, often hurting the regular population instead of the traders. The traders have wealth and materials that allow them to deal with any unfortunate side effects from an overarching government imposing price control or trade limits has. The regular person doesn’t.

For example, lets say that we increase drops from farming locations to allow farming to be equally as wealthy as capital gains. Of course this idea is flawed, since capital gains is a geometric growth of invested wealth, whereas farming is just linear monetary generation. This means that as more money enters into the economy from farming, flipping gets wider margins from the increased wealth, allowing them to make more of a profit. This increase the prices of goods overall for non-farmers, and makes it so farmers have to farm more due to inflation. Remember: the linear increase in money generation from farming doesn’t change, but the value of that currency does due to inflation. This means that any boost to farming would be a temporary one, and to keep things “fair” you would constantly have to increase the value of farming. This would be akin to using inflation in order to fight inflation, and this would spiral out of control.

Something I was taught much later than life is the social contract and the principles of trade. This is where statements of the evils of capital gains start to fall short. Trade, ultimately, is an agreement between two or more individuals on the exchange of goods and services. The key term here is “agreement”. In order to trade, both the buyer and the seller have to agree to an exchange. With no agreement comes no trade. Because of this, every participant in the TP is a voluntary one, where you buy items only at a price you agree to pay for them and the other person sells an item at a price they think others will buy it at. This is the true limit of capital gains: your limit is what other people are willing to pay. If other people aren’t willing to pay, then you’ve lost money on the endeavor.

There are some exceptions in real life, and those exceptions are based around necessary commodities. Food, potable water, shelter, power, etc are things that are needed to live, and thus it can be considered that people have a basic right to these things, while also understanding that these things are not free. Of course, GW2 there aren’t any necessary goods.

TooBz.3065:

I don’t think anyone is saying that flippers are marking items up. That’s a strawman.

There are two discussions going more of less simultaneously. First is about flipping itself. Is it good or bad for the economy. The second is about the concentration of wealth and the effect that this has on the game.

The reason they are related is that flipping is the way that the wealth gets concentrated.

Speaking only for myself. I don’t do it because it’s not fun. There are lots of activities in this game that I refuse to do because I don’t enjoy them. Flipping is one of them. I play this game to enjoy myself – period. If I don’t enjoy it I don’t do it. Honestly, you don’t need money in this game at all if you don’t buy into the grind, grind, grind, bullkitten that ANet keeps pushing.

Flipper also spend money too. It is just they can afford more. When they spend gold on items, that is money to other players.

phys.7689:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Fungalfoot.7213:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Profit does not come at the expense of anyone else, unless it is taken by force. By the way, it may be unfun for you, but don’t place your subjective interpretations of that word above everyone else’s.

I am not objecting your right to flip. What I am objecting is the fact that flipping is the only way to get ahead currently. It generates way too much gold compared to other activities and it needs to be addressed.

It doesn’t generate any gold, and actually removes gold from the game.

However, if you’re arguing that flipping is the fastest way to make money, you’re probably right.

We disagree as to whether or not this is an actual problem. For me, I know that when more people attempt to flip, profit margins will dwindle and it won’t really be as fast as a method anymore. The entry barrier which discourages more people from doing it is knowledge. That entry barrier is what keeps it so profitable for those that do it.

But I have nothing against profit, and I don’t want to spend the time overcoming that entry barrier.

So you essentially admit that flipping is best way to make money. You dont need to understand the mathematics and science of equation behavior then.

Simply, if 1 method of gaining rewards far outweighs other methods, and this method primarily involves only one small facet of the game, do you not think this would put people not participating in said facet at a disadvantage.
Do you think the majority of people who dont really want to participate in this facet would be dissatisfied if they have to compete with the people who get greater rewards at a better rate?

Once again here is the problem.
Earnings outside TP are substantially lower than earnings in TP. earnings in TP have limits many order of magnitude higher than earnings outside tp.

This means TP earning players will always have a strong economic advantage over non TP earners.

Since tp earners are actually the minority of players, this leads to much disatifsaction with the economy

Sorry, I should have been more careful with my terminology. Flipping is the best way to earn money, not the best way to make it. You “make” money by playing the game. That money is then transferred to flippers.

It is expected to that negotiation occurs within trade to establish a compromise wherein both parties are willing to submit, but neither is truly receiving what they want. The buy and sell orders work beautifully to illustrate this: if you aren’t willing to buy what other people are selling, then you put up your own buy order an wait to see if other people will compromise. Other people decide how much they want for an item, and put it at a particular selling price, and see if buyers are willing to compromise. It is here that patience truly rewards either party: a patient seller can get more than normal from their goods, a patient buyer can get more than normal goods. One of the easiest way to make money or save money in the game is not to default to the current market prices, and high or low-ball them and just be patient. It requires little effort on part of the buyer or seller, and often rewards just by being patient.

The next thing I see that perplexes me is people saying they need these things. That someone needs 200G for a mystic forge weapon, or that someone needs 700G for a precursor. The part that perplexes me is that these items, ultimately for decoration, are meant to show a status of wealth. So in order to be wealthy you need… to be wealthy.

One thing I applaud Anet for is designing the game with alternate material sources other than just buying from the TP. If you need armor but can’t afford it, there are always dungeon tokens that can give that armor stat. If you want rares for ectoplasm, there are always overworld bosses that guarantee a drop (an boy there are a lot of them). If you need crafting materials you can always gather them yourself, or farm a particular enemy for them. A lot of people complain about rising prices due to supply/demand, but this gives an advantage to players who find these things by themselves. When the prices of lodestones were climbing, this was a great benefit to players who happened to run the respective dungeon or liked to play on a certain map. People other than flippers benefit from increased demand. Because of this, there are very few things in the market that can be manipulated to a large degree.

The next side effect of capital gains is that it is always risky. It isn’t mentioned often, but people who play the trading post to gain a profit often don’t. That’s the reason why I rarely flip. If I see a way that I can get money just by trading goods and crafting things, I’ll jump right on it, but the unpredictability of the game environment in many different games has left me short changed from my investments. People rarely ever talk about the money they lost, so it isn’t brought into focus nearly as often, but at any point where you mention capital gains, the ability to lose money in an investment is always present.

tolunart.2095:

LyricDawnhagen.7803:

So the middle man serves a very important function in the game (and in the real world). If every single seller was more interested in waiting on their money from the sale of their items, then the middle men would not exist. They would have nothing to offer the market. But as long as sellers are more interested in gold NOW than in a bit more gold later, middle men will have a place, and a useful function, in the economy.

Exactly. There is a supply of skelk tails on the TP for sale, the lowest sell order is 10s. I have the highest buy order at 5s. The skelk farmer comes in with his bags full and wants to turn them into cash. He could sell them to me for 5s each, or undersell the lowest available price and make almost double the money, 9.99s each.

Why, then, does he sell them to me for half price? An hour later my buy orders are filled and I list them for 9.99s and make a profit even after TP fees. And why do they sell after another hour, when the buyers could simply put in their own buy order at 5.01s?

Because people want the stuff NOW. They don’t want to go away and do other things for a few hours, then come back to collect their stuff. They’ll take less gold now, or pay more to get the tails now, rather than wait for someone else to come along. I have patience, I could list the tails at 11s each and while they won’t sell immediately, in a few days I’ll have made a bigger profit than the one who sold them to me for fast cash.

You’re taking a risk listing at 11s though, as that is outside the current buy bid/seller list range. You may be rewarded for your risk if the lower priced sell listings are all bought or you may wind up having to eat two listing fees because your product never sells, but that is the game that flippers play every transaction.

Amun Ra.6435:

But, is this best for the games survival in general? Will unhappy players keep playing simply because the games economy gets extra attention?

Or will these players simply leave for the next game that comes out so they can have their shinnies?

Anet can only force this “real world simulation” so much before players will leave.

This is irrelevant kittenstorming because people are upset that they have to run more than one dungeon path per day, starting next month.

If you want to make money without a lot of effort, the best thing to do is to follow the meta-events and sell everything you get from the chests. There’s no risk, you can create any number of alts and collect loot all day long. And starting next month you can follow the champions and do the same thing.

If people are not satisfied with the game, what happens on the TP isn’t going to keep them or drive them away.

Conncept.7638:

The solution is pretty dang simple, GW2’s economists are just ‘college graduate’ economists rather than business men (and women). IE, their economic knowledge is theoretical, and largely based in the opinion of whoever taught them. But how is it simple?

UR-GEN-CY costs!

Nothing for sale in this game has any risk connected to time! There is no urgency to sell. In real world sales, if you overcharge for something, you are losing more money on it than you will gain when someone buys it. Why? It costs money to sit on that shelf; you have to pay an employee to shelve it, to pull it out of the warehouse, to put it back in the warehouse, to keep the product and the area around it clean and presentable, and most importantly it is taking space that you could be used for something that people would buy right now.

The solution is not to limit gold gain, in fact that is pretty much guaranteed to break the economy, we need:

• An account limit to the amount of TP posts, possibly with additional purchasable space
• A daily charge which scales with item cost
• A removal charge which scales with item cost
• A (small) scaling charge for how long the item has been sitting since spawned

And voila! Suddenly, people actually have to price things intelligently as in real world sales. You won’t see people pricing things for amounts of money no one will even have for months and counting on inflation to catch up.

You should apologize to Mr. Smith for posting so much wrong.

First, there are inherently are inherently two risks connected to time intrinsic to any TP transaction – (1) time value of money, (2) opportunity cost. I can elaborate if there’s any confusion as to how just those two factors come into play.

And as to the “solution”:

• It’s not amount you’re looking for, it’s frequency. But even more importantly for your solution, it’s frequency combined with an aggregate market value cap for all transaction over the desired period. “Amount” alone is meaningless.

• And how would you collect this charge? Upon login? Remove it automatically from a player account? Escrow? And if it’s not paid, what, delist/destroy the item? Leave it on the TP, but extract the cost upon sale? What if the charges exceed the sales? Pre-pay to list for a set time period and refund pro-rata if it sells earlier?

• And how does that work if the player can’t afford to remove the item? Same issues as the daily charge.

• This is no different then #2 based on cost with a scaling factor linked to time added to it.

Regardless of all that, all a fee, reoccurring or one time, can simply be treated as a (sunk) cost and baked into the listing price of the item, especially if you choose the pre-pay option.

I may be going out on a limb, but I think “solution” may be a bit of an misnomer.

Hell Avenger.7021:

TooBz.3065:

I don’t think anyone is saying that flippers are marking items up. That’s a strawman.

There are two discussions going more of less simultaneously. First is about flipping itself. Is it good or bad for the economy. The second is about the concentration of wealth and the effect that this has on the game.

The reason they are related is that flipping is the way that the wealth gets concentrated.

Speaking only for myself. I don’t do it because it’s not fun. There are lots of activities in this game that I refuse to do because I don’t enjoy them. Flipping is one of them. I play this game to enjoy myself – period. If I don’t enjoy it I don’t do it. Honestly, you don’t need money in this game at all if you don’t buy into the grind, grind, grind, bullkitten that ANet keeps pushing.

Flipper also spend money too. It is just they can afford more. When they spend gold on items, that is money to other players.

Nah! you just roll around in the gold like Scrooge McDuck.

TooBz.3065:

I don’t think anyone is saying that flippers are marking items up. That’s a strawman.

There are two discussions going more of less simultaneously. First is about flipping itself. Is it good or bad for the economy. The second is about the concentration of wealth and the effect that this has on the game.

The reason they are related is that flipping is the way that the wealth gets concentrated.

Speaking only for myself. I don’t do it because it’s not fun. There are lots of activities in this game that I refuse to do because I don’t enjoy them. Flipping is one of them. I play this game to enjoy myself – period. If I don’t enjoy it I don’t do it. Honestly, you don’t need money in this game at all if you don’t buy into the grind, grind, grind, bullkitten that ANet keeps pushing.

I won’t try to argue that flipping is good for the economy but it certainly isn’t bad. It’s a non-issue. I will say that an increase in the number of flippers is better for the average farmer—assuming that, as most people, that the average farmer sells his items right away at the highest buy order price.

If you look at an item that is lightly traded with few flippers, the spread between the buy and sell prices is much larger. If a lot of flippers are trading an item, the buy orders keep creeping higher as people try to outbid other buyers. As a result, the farmer gets a much better price if he elects to just sell his loot for an instant profit.

As far as the concentration of wealth…well, I suppose a flipper has a much larger potential for wealth than the average player. But why does that even matter? A dedicated flipper isn’t even really playing the same game as you. There is only so much you can even buy and at the high end it’s almost all superfluous crap related to appearance.

One potential issue with flipping is it favors the wealthy — you make money on volume. In order to push large volume you must have enough gold on hand to make the purchase as well as front the 5% posting fee.

Two players with equal skill will make equal ROI. However since ROI is a percentage, the wealthier player will come out with more absolute profit in total gold.

From that standpoint the playing field is not quite equal — unlike other aspects of the game which are (i.e. every player is limited to 1 laurel per day from dailies — period).

I think this is why you see resentment towards players who make significant sums of money flipping items on the trading post.

The kicker, and a hot button issue itself is entitlements. Ultimately this is where the moral disparity comes from: Someone has money, and we aren’t happy about how they got it. Or someone doesn’t have money (mostly us), and we aren’t happy about that fact. I’m not talking about people doing something illegal, but that we aren’t satisfied with the wealth our work has produced, and we aren’t happy that someone else’s work has produced much more wealth than us. This is a personal issue, because as I’ve said before, capital gains generating wealth is more akin to a force of nature rather than an arbitrary imposition. The people who do this work specifically to gain wealth, and so when done right they gain wealth.

This has perplexed me a bit (again, I am a very befuddled person at other’s behavior) because this is an example of a clear solution for wealth acquisition occurring, and people who want wealth refusing to take it. I can understand if a player personally likes grinding the same event over and over again. But if you grind because you like to, then the money generated shouldn’t be an issue. The time where money generation is an issue is when people do something specifically to generate money, and not necessarily to have fun.

What perplexes me is the arbitrary divide and limit people put on the matter. If there is something you really want, and there is a really effective way of making money through flipping, then why is it that you aren’t flipping to make money? If the objective is to make money, then the path of least resistance is obviously flipping. It’s low maintenance, too: you buy stuff, sell it for higher than you bought it, then go do whatever you want while waiting for it to sell. Farming in itself is an antiquated and inefficient system. But yet people will refuse to flip, default to farming, then complain about the inadequacy of farming. It’s like drinking soda in lieu of drinking water, then complaining that soda doesn’t hydrate you well.

There are legitimate reasons why it is people don’t flip from a purely logical standpoint. The biggest one being that, at low amounts of wealth, farming is more efficient than flipping. This is only true until the percentage growth of flipping becomes more than farming. The second biggest reason is that people don’t know how. Sorry to say, but there is no right way to flip. All investments are merely educated guesses, and there is an inherent risk in them. The third reason is that people don’t want to take that risk. This, too, is understandable, since many prefer a safer and more steady income. However, this comes with the caveat that the refusal to take risks results in the refusal to take rewards as well, and this must be accepted on a personal level.

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nnnnnnnnelion.4562:

You’re taking a risk listing at 11s though, as that is outside the current buy bid/seller list range. You may be rewarded for your risk if the lower priced sell listings are all bought or you may wind up having to eat two listing fees because your product never sells, but that is the game that flippers play every transaction.

That’s the point. A lot of things have cycles that go up and down constantly, and if you can predict the high/low points you can get the maximum benefit. If I am willing to tie up 10g in copper ore, and list it all for 50% higher than the current value, it will eventually swing up to my level and it will sell. The trick is to have patience to wait for the profit, or to turn over the gold you make several times to make a smaller profit more quickly.

There are opportunities and risks for both approaches. If I buy 500 of the fictional skelk tails for 5s each, I sell them right now for 9.99 and make something like 35% profit immediately, or I can sell them for 11s each later and make more. I’m speculating that the market has not reached its highest point yet, and when the dailies update and “cook 50 barbecued skelk tails” rotates in, there will be run on skelk tails and I’ll sell them. Or I can list them now and hope they sell before someone comes along and lists 1000 at 9.98s.

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nnnnnnnnnn1840:

Limit postings to specific duration. You pay 5% to post, if it hasn’t sold in 2 days your post is removed, the item returned to you, and you lose the 5% fee. The duration in this example is arbitrary (could be 2 days, 3 days, 5 days, whatever).

There’s a good reason this is in effect in other games.

You’ll see TP prices drop for items — especially high end items like legendaries and precursors which can cost 20 to 60 gold just to post.

That would not have the effect you think it would.

As far as flippers are concerned, they would simply shift towards different types of items than what they resell right now.

Crafting mats prices would increase, not decrease. Blue/green/yellow gear would have their prices increased, and some of them would become unsellable. “Increased”, compared to what we have right now.

High end item prices would not be affected. People would simply trade even more of them on black market, as they already do quite successfully.

tolunakittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn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Amun Ra.6435:

But, is this best for the games survival in general? Will unhappy players keep playing simply because the games economy gets extra attention?

Or will these players simply leave for the next game that comes out so they can have their shinnies?

Anet can only force this “real world simulation” so much before players will leave.

This is irrelevant kittenstorming because people are upset that they have to run more than one dungeon path per day, starting next month.

If you want to make money without a lot of effort, the best thing to do is to follow the meta-events and sell everything you get from the chests. There’s no risk, you can create any number of alts and collect loot all day long. And starting next month you can follow the champions and do the same thing.

If people are not satisfied with the game, what happens on the TP isn’t going to keep them or drive them away.

This conversation has been going longer before any news of the update was announced. I assume you and anyone else suggesting the same are fairly new to the forums.

This has nothing to do with the dungeon update. But yes this just adds to the fire because those who did farm CoF p1, which I never did thank you, now have their gold taken away…just like the farmers did.

Read the forums…not only has this disappointed the veteran players (Non-TP Traders) but it has also been a shock to the new players…again. Try reading through some of the posts.

TP traders posting here so self righteous, you speak as though you do it for the sake of humanity and the good of the players. Please, you do it because you enjoy it and it makes you tons of gold.

Now, what if Anet nerf the TP to hell…would you do farm CoF p1 even though it gave you zero enjoyment just to keep on making gold? Or would you leave the game…either permanently or temporary?

The thing with flipping is that profit is greatly effected by player wealth. Equally skilled players can achieve the same ROI by flipping, however the wealthier player will come out with more absolute profit in gold simply from the capability of having a larger investment.

In that regard the playing field doesn’t feel level (it’s a great example of rich getting richer).

Other aspects of the game are intentionally gated by the developers (example: laurels, charged quartz crystals, daily reward chests, etc).

I’m not sure this is truly an issue as flipping does not “create” wealth, it simply moves it around between players while removing 15% in fees.

It would only be a problem imho if the incredibly wealthy were monopolizing available supply to jack up prices (example: super wealthy player buys up all the available Dusk greatswords on the TP and reposts them at 1000gp each).

Is it me, or the forum is broken?

tolunakittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnt.2095:

This is irrelevant kittenstorming because people are upset that they have to run more than one dungeon path per day, starting next month.

If you want to make money without a lot of effort, the best thing to do is to follow the meta-events and sell everything you get from the chests. There’s no risk, you can create any number of alts and collect loot all day long. And starting next month you can follow the champions and do the same thing.

If people are not satisfied with the game, what happens on the TP isn’t going to keep them or drive them away.

This conversation has been going longer before any news of the update was announced. I assume you and anyone else suggesting the same are fairly new to the forums.

This has nothing to do with the dungeon update. But yes this just adds to the fire because those who did farm CoF p1, which I never did thank you, now have their gold taken away…just like the farmers did.

Read the forums…not only has this disappointed the veteran players (Non-TP Traders) but it has also been a shock to the new players…again. Try reading through some of the posts.

TP traders posting here so self righteous, you speak as though you do it for the sake of humanity and the good of the players. Please, you do it because you enjoy it and it makes you tons of gold.

Now, what if Anet nerf the TP to hell…would you do farm CoF p1 even though it gave you zero enjoyment just to keep on making gold? Or would you leave the game…either permanently or temporary?

AmunkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnRa.6435:

This conversation has been going longer before any news of the update was announced. I assume you and anyone else suggesting the same are fairly new to the forums.

You assume wrong, I’ve been active on the forums for a very long time. I’m referring to this thread, it’s one of three or four that have been posted in the last two days.

kittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnmeraldtryst.8491:

I won’t try to argue that flipping is good for the economy but it certainly isn’t bad. It’s a non-issue. I will say that an increase in the number of flippers is better for the average farmer—assuming that, as most people, that the average farmer sells his items right away at the highest buy order price.

If you look at an item that is lightly traded with few flippers, the spread between the buy and sell prices is much larger. If a lot of flippers are trading an item, the buy orders keep creeping higher as people try to outbid other buyers. As a result, the farmer gets a much better price if he elects to just sell his loot for an instant profit.

As far as the concentration of wealth…well, I suppose a flipper has a much larger potential for wealth than the average player. But why does that even matter? A dedicated flipper isn’t even really playing the same game as you. There is only so much you can even buy and at the high end it’s almost all superfluous crap related to appearance.

We talked about this a few pages ago but, the reason it matters, or may matter (depending on your viewpoint) is all that superfluous crap is the end game.

Because of the consolidation of wealth, the price of getting skins etc extends beyond the reach of the normal gamer, normal gamers therefore get fed up and demand obtainable goals. And thus was time gated ascended gear invented.

Which is the worst thing to happen to the game since — well, forever.

Not sure I buy this entirely. I think the real culprit is ANet and not flippers. ANet made the barrier to getting the superfluous crap way to high.

AntiGwkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn9367:

it me, or the forum is broken?

The kitten filter has finally snapped, and it’s killing the forums!

John Smith:

Ensign.2189:

….already kitten ed off from eating the 5% fee of having to re-list it on top of your money being locked up for those days.

Except for the part about my feelings (I just got back from crying in a corner), everything Ensign says is correct.

Cool…sooo…. Having “your money tied up” is considered a PUNISHMENT or failure metric now? …. Smith basically backs the Day-Traders 100% then? …and sees no reasons to promote Long Term investment?? Okay so if nothing is ever going to be done to make the day flippers face the realities of “Warehousing” or give up anything for their nearly infinite low bids …. then why not just come out and say so?

It’s fine, I can live with being stuck in the same zombie flash market our Real World is stuck in then … minus those generous “Easing” handouts. But if we’re going to base everything off real markets, then how do we start Short Selling the leveraged value of crap we think is overvalued?(starting with precursors & lodestones). Where’s that option at?? Let us borrow those and then tank them. Better yet… allow day flippers to lose storage slots after a particularly brutal day of trading or just sentence them to perma death like it was hardcore mode

tolunart.2095:

Amun Ra.6435:

This conversation has been going longer before any news of the update was announced. I assume you and anyone else suggesting the same are fairly new to the forums.

You assume wrong, I’ve been active on the forums for a very long time. I’m referring to this thread, it’s one of three or four that have been posted in the last two days.

Exactly, all of sudden several threads poped up out of the blue.WAIT, not out of the blue. COF farmers are crying, because all of sudden they cannot afford to buy stuffs anymore while others can.

This is like YOU NERF THIEF, everyone SHOULD BE NERFED TOOOO