Guild Wars 2

Ya’ll can do better than degrading the discussion into “Communists”. That’s more of a last ditch effort and we should be above that.

Essence Snow.3194:

Ya’ll can do better than degrading the discussion into “Communists”. That’s more of a last ditch effort and we should be above that.

To be fair, his points have already been made and countered several times in this thread. I just didn’t feel like rehashing them. Plus the fact that he came out and said that everyone who disagrees with him is an economic parasite significantly reduced my interest in addressing his arguments with any level of respect.

LordByron.8369:

people farm cof for legendaries:

Both precursor, materials and stuff get CONSUMED! thus vanish.

If its true maybe if i buy t6 mats the gold doesn t vanish, the material itself VANISHES.

You know what is the only thing that remains polluting the market?

The flippers margin!

And the gold a flipper earns can’t be used for legendaries? He can’t use it to buy the materials and precursor he needs to craft his?

Players who run cof are putting time in doing speedruns to earn their gold. A flipper puts in time and a bank roll in to earn his. So why is earning it on the TP evil while earning it doing speedruns isn’t?

phys.7689:

tolunart.2095:

Efficiency is for hardcore players, if you play casually you have casual goals. Legendaries are not a casual goal, nor is obtaining limited items like F&F dyes and other drops from past Living Story content. If you’re not willing to play hardcore, don’t set hardcore goals.

This is exactly what I’m talking about – why do you think you should have these things without putting in the work to get them?

why do you think the only hardcore player that should matter is the TP flipper? do TP flippers work harder than 10 hour farmers?
do they work harder than master explorers hitting every jump puzzle in a day?
do they work harder than people speed clearing arah?
do they work harder than the crafter who actually has to do a lot of the TP monitoring, but has to actually create an item some one can use and has the desire to buy?

the problem is not that you have to work or play well to get things, the problem is one style of play rewards money at a different mathematical order than other types of play.

Which one would you rather reward then? Do you want to say the farmer of CoF1 should make the most money? more than any other player? Or should it be the crafter, who just as much as the TP flipper has no need to even step outside the city?

My point is, this is a bad argument to say the TP flipper shouldn’t exist. The TP is part of the game, designed to be in the game. Spending time on the TP is an intentional part of playing, yes, playing the game. Some people make this an “art” and they make money from it. Yes, the rewards are good. But that’s why people do things anyway, because either, they enjoy the activity inherently and rewards don’t matter, or they enjoy the rewards.

As with most things in life, the rewards aren’t always proportional to the effort involved, but that’s a choice people make. You choose to farm CoF1 (by all accounts an easy run that can be done in less than 20 minutes) … is that really harder than flipping a few items on the TP? Can you honestly say they work harder? Even if it is, there’s a reason you chose to do this over flip the TP, right?

TP flippers put in the effort to monitor a huge market. Why is this not considered effort? They have to watch for fluctuations, need to calculate profits and losses, get their timings right etc … not to mention the fact they needed to have some sort of capital to even begin with (that they may well have earned through farming or through endless runs of CoF1).

I see the point you’re trying to make, but essentially, it seems that most of the things you are placing value on are subjective, which necessarily detracts from your argument.

So many generalizations and outright misconceptions.

I’m a flipper, and I don’t make anything like obscene amounts of gold. I spend about an hour a day doing it, and usually make between 1 and 3 gold profit.

Also, I’m making prices LOWER, not higher.

If you want to buy some new gear on the AH, you have two choices. Put in a buy order and wait for it, or buy the lowest priced offer.

I think most people (myself included) will choose the latter option, and just buy the lowest priced offer. I get it…when you want something for your character, you want it now. You don’t want to pay now and just hope to get it later.

When I flip something, I’m LOWERING that offer, so the next person to buy that item gets it at a LOWER price than they would have if I hadn’t flipped. That’s not hurting the buyer…it’s helping him.

It’s also RAISING the price the “instant seller” gets for selling the item to me. So it’s helping him, too.

Example – Level 70 Cleric Boots. Current buy offers are 16s99c. Current sale offers are 45s10c.

This means that anyone who wants an “instant sale” is making 16s99c (less fee) to sell those boots, and anyone who wants to “instant buy” the boots has to pay 45s10c.

I will put in a buy offer for 17s50c, and when (if) someone fulfills that order (which could be days later, or never if I got “overcut”, and that happens a lot) I place it for sale for 44s60c.

Yes, I made about 20s for my time and risk, but I’m not the only one who profited. The “instant seller” picked up an extra 50c more than he would have, and the “instant buyer” paid 50c less than he would have. Because I got up that morning and worked in the TP instead of sleeping in, both these players benefited, and they did so INSTANTLY, without having to deal with the risk, and wait, that I had.

My 20s profit is by no means guaranteed, either. If I chose the price poorly, so no one buys my offer, and another seller undercuts me, I will have to come back and post the item again, lowering my price, lowering my profit, and paying the TP fees all over again.

It is very possible to lose money flipping; it happens all the time, and the people who control that are NOT the flippers. The people really in control are the “instant sellers” and “instant buyers,” who decide if the instant prices we’re offering are attractive enough to forgo the risk and time we have taken on, so they don’t have to.

Honestly, I think people forget the key thing here, which is that every sale is a voluntary trade between a buyer and seller, in which both AGREE that they are better off with what the other person has, than with what they already have. It may not be the price you were hoping for, but if you buy/sell anyway, it’s because you still wanted the other person’s gold/item MORE than you wanted the gold/item you traded. It’s a win-win, every single time, or the trade doesn’t happen.

eveleaf.4132:

snip.

It’s a 2 way street.

It lowers prices for the impatient buyer, but at the same time raises prices for the patient buyer.

It raises selling prices for the impatient sellers, but at the same time lowers prices for the patient sellers.

Essence Snow.3194:

eveleaf.4132:

snip.

It’s a 2 way street.

It lowers prices for the impatient buyer, but at the same time raises prices for the patient buyer.

It raises selling prices for the impatient sellers, but at the same time lowers prices for the patient sellers.

Good for casual impatient player.

Bad for flipper.

casual=/=impatient

casual has zero bearing on whether or not someone is patient or impatient

mtpelion.4562:

LordByron.8369:

thank you to prove again how flippers are just economic parasites.

In case gold inflates just wonder what farmers will do…
Farm materials

While flippers won t do anything :| but leech gold.

If I understand your argument correctly you believe that anyone who has more money than you is a parasite and that someone should force those people with more money than you to have the same amount of money as you.

I could have sworn that I’d heard this argument before…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror

Honestly, I think a little education is better than this back and forth crap. It took me several hours of posting before anyone was willing to explain this to me, and then only in the most condescending manner.

Here’s how I understand it. Flippers correct an inefficiency in the market. In an efficient market the sell and buy price would be separated by only the 15% TP fee. However, due to a bunch of stuff I don’t understand (but I’m sure someone does), that isn’t what happens. Instead the difference in price is more like 30% or 50%.

This inefficiency creates the opportunity for a profit. The flipper buys low and sells high and consequently brings the two numbers closer together. There’s some gobblety kitten about finding the “true value” of the item. I still think don’t buy that that’s particularly important of valuable in a virtual economy, but I’ll go with it.

Note: This is entirely different than market manipulation, which also happens and is absolutely parasitic (unless someone wants to explain to me, preferably nicely, why it’s not.)

Essence Snow.3194:

eveleaf.4132:

snip.

It’s a 2 way street.

It lowers prices for the impatient buyer, but at the same time raises prices for the patient buyer.

It raises selling prices for the impatient sellers, but at the same time lowers prices for the patient sellers.

This is also absolutely true. Flippers don’t actually lower the price of anything. Technically, they just reduce the spread. The true price (somewhere between the buy and sell price) remains constant.

This is also why I suspect that the virtual economy would not be any worse off without flippers. But that’s a different discussion.

Essence Snow.3194:

casual=/=impatient

casual has zero bearing on whether or not someone is patient or impatient

I should put it this way. If you flip, you have to be patient.

And from my experience, talking to casual guildies. Although it’s a relatively small sample size, they never put order, never. Both buy and sell. They get the item straight away. I was really surprised at first, but later realize most people do that.

I’m not a flipper and I think idea of flipping being stealing is ridiculous. Some of us obviously don’t understand the cost of convenience.

CrossedHorse.4261:

phys.7689:

tolunart.2095:

Efficiency is for hardcore players, if you play casually you have casual goals. Legendaries are not a casual goal, nor is obtaining limited items like F&F dyes and other drops from past Living Story content. If you’re not willing to play hardcore, don’t set hardcore goals.

This is exactly what I’m talking about – why do you think you should have these things without putting in the work to get them?

why do you think the only hardcore player that should matter is the TP flipper? do TP flippers work harder than 10 hour farmers?
do they work harder than master explorers hitting every jump puzzle in a day?
do they work harder than people speed clearing arah?
do they work harder than the crafter who actually has to do a lot of the TP monitoring, but has to actually create an item some one can use and has the desire to buy?

the problem is not that you have to work or play well to get things, the problem is one style of play rewards money at a different mathematical order than other types of play.

Which one would you rather reward then? Do you want to say the farmer of CoF1 should make the most money? more than any other player? Or should it be the crafter, who just as much as the TP flipper has no need to even step outside the city?

My point is, this is a bad argument to say the TP flipper shouldn’t exist. The TP is part of the game, designed to be in the game. Spending time on the TP is an intentional part of playing, yes, playing the game. Some people make this an “art” and they make money from it. Yes, the rewards are good. But that’s why people do things anyway, because either, they enjoy the activity inherently and rewards don’t matter, or they enjoy the rewards.

As with most things in life, the rewards aren’t always proportional to the effort involved, but that’s a choice people make. You choose to farm CoF1 (by all accounts an easy run that can be done in less than 20 minutes) … is that really harder than flipping a few items on the TP? Can you honestly say they work harder? Even if it is, there’s a reason you chose to do this over flip the TP, right?

TP flippers put in the effort to monitor a huge market. Why is this not considered effort? They have to watch for fluctuations, need to calculate profits and losses, get their timings right etc … not to mention the fact they needed to have some sort of capital to even begin with (that they may well have earned through farming or through endless runs of CoF1).

I see the point you’re trying to make, but essentially, it seems that most of the things you are placing value on are subjective, which necessarily detracts from your argument.

I would either try to create reward systems that can reward good play in more wealth earning activities, or i would have to alter or limit the profit obtainable through the unmitigated one.

I would honestly prefer the first option. Then you have a situation where there are many paths to success. As far as placing value subjective things, you realize everything is subjective, most especially in a virtual world.

Now as for the people who say creation of money is an issue, there are means of dealing with that.

nightwulf.1986:

Let me see if I can sum up the base arguments so far, please feel free to correct me on any point.

Argument A ) The high level trading on the TP allows wealth acquisition within the designed limitations of the activity. There is also an acknowledgment that the financial gains from this activity exceed all expectations of wealth acquisition elsewhere in the game. Players should be allowed to acquire wealth far beyond the norm of other activities so long as significant effort is put into doing so and it is allowed by the game designers. There is no double standard of expectation for the activity.

Argument B ) The high level trading on the TP allows wealth acquisition at a rate far beyond expectations set by the developers for an activity in the game. Players should not be allowed to acquire wealth far beyond the norm of other activities if the company designing the game has communicated that they want to limit wealth acquisition of players. There is a double standard of expectations for the activity.

There have been many secondary and tertiary arguments surrounding what I believe are the core ideas brought by both sides. In the end, we may just be arguing about economic ideals (still fascinating that a fictional economy can do this) and whether or not there exists a double standard in how wealth is acquired. Only Anet can answer that last one and from their PR thus far, I am led to believe that they feel there is not.

Couldn’t state it any better….

I think the amount of posts to this topic and breakdown of frequency in posting could even shine some real light on “where the Meta currently is”.

.

Yeah, think that sounds right…I prefer to use the word “Meta” when the system for creating wealth eliminates as many RNG elements as it can and still rewards far and beyond what all competing methods currently available can produce…. (meanwhile LONG TERM investing, which Smith commented on, takes far more risk and experience because you don’t get nearly as many quick “do overs” when a greater period of Randomness occurs)

ilr.9675:

….Yeah, think that sounds right…I prefer to use the word “Meta” when the system for creating wealth eliminates as many RNG elements as it can and still rewards far and beyond what all competing methods currently available can produce…. (meanwhile LONG TERM investing, which Smith commented on, takes far more risk and experience because you don’t get nearly as many quick “do overs” when a greater period of Randomness occurs)

Referring to your postulation, I did make a separate thread not too long ago about an article on coercive transaction systems in Microtransaction games, of which GW2 is one. I’m not familiar enough with in game economies to piece that into the bigger picture of the supply and demand market as you were.

Honestly though, I think that Anet has a priority system when it comes to addressing issues of the economy. The biggest issue they probably worry about is inflation. If we look at how they’ve responded to economic issues (mostly exploits thus far), the issues that got squashed were A ) bringing a lot of new gold into the economy and B ) used by a significant number of players. Those two issues combined, and maybe in rare cases only “A” alone are what Anet feels is a threat to the balance of the economy. I think another issue, C) equal opportunity of wealth acquisition, was on their minds when they designed the game but it doesn’t seem to matter as much if it is not directly related to issues “A” and “B.”

Anet clearly adjusted player expectations on how much Anet wants players to earn by limiting wealth acquisition pretty much everywhere in the game but the TP. While this may, on some level, be related to issue “C”, it is likely only to address issues “A” and “B”. Now, the sort of TP trading being talked about, only deals in money and resources that currently exist in the economy. So long as the majority of players create and destroy gold at a reasonable rate, Anet probably doesn’t care much whether some small segment of the population is able to amass a significant amount of wealth.

I honestly don’t think it was expected that the sort of TP activity we’re seeing would evolve from the way the TP was set up, but I also see why they may not feel compelled to act on it.

nightwulf.1986:

…snip….I honestly don’t think it was expected that the sort of TP activity we’re seeing would evolve from the way the TP was set up, but I also see why they may not feel compelled to act on it.

There is also zero regulation of the TP. A player who has acquired massive amounts of gold has free reign to wreck havoc in any given market through manipulation or monopolies without fear of punishment. Where is the real world simulation in this?

And why should they fear punishment…John Smith himself states every chance he gets that he has no plans or inclinations to interfere with players interactions with the TP.

When prices are not where they need to be…where Anet wants them to be would be better putting it…are players accumulation of any given item considered? Is breaking up a monopoly considered? That would take hard work and I suppose it would be much easier to….

…further restrict loot.

Was the wealth not more evenly distributed before all the massive nerfs to open world farming? As I recall TP players were still bloating about much they were making…the only difference was, so were farmers. Sadly, this is not the case anymore.

Wouldn’t limiting TP transactions and increasing drop rates of top end goods more evenly distribute wealth? Sincere question as I am not an economist.

Amun Ra.6435:

nightwulf.1986:

…snip….I honestly don’t think it was expected that the sort of TP activity we’re seeing would evolve from the way the TP was set up, but I also see why they may not feel compelled to act on it.

There is also zero regulation of the TP. A player who has acquired massive amounts of gold has free reign to wreck havoc in any given market through manipulation or monopolies without fear of punishment. Where is the real world simulation in this?

And why should they fear punishment…John Smith himself states every chance he gets that he has no plans or inclinations to interfere with players interactions with the TP.

When prices are not where they need to be…where Anet wants them to be would be better putting it…are players accumulation of any given item considered? Is breaking up a monopoly considered? That would take hard work and I suppose it would be much easier to….

…further restrict loot.

Was the wealth not more evenly distributed before all the massive nerfs to open world farming? As I recall TP players were still bloating about much they were making…the only difference was, so were farmers. Sadly, this is not the case anymore.

Wouldn’t limiting TP transactions and increasing drop rates of top end goods more evenly distribute wealth? Sincere question as I am not an economist.

Per John

John Smith.4610:

A dozen players with 10k gold wouldn’t even scrape one of those markets.

Quite frankly, I don’t foresee Anet’s not going to do anything about flipping. Wealth inequality in itself isn’t a massive problem some posters make it out to be (Many players actually don’t place a significant emphasis on extrinsic rewards. i.e. the Explorer, the Socializer, and the Killer Bartle gamer archetypes, as opposed to the Achiever archetype), and many of the solutions proposed by people are cumbersome, hard to implement, affects everyone negatively, or a combination of the above and simply not worth the dev-time when this game has so many other pressing issues.

In the end, flipping is a service. People spend money for convenience. This cannot be denied. As long as there is demand for this service, it will remain profitable. It’s the same as getting tipped for portal JPs or being paid to run people through dungeons in GW1.

If you truly believe flipping shouldn’t be so profitable then, there’s far more efficient methods to combat this as a player than expecting Anet to do something through forum posts.

1. Encourage people to flip more. The more competition there is, the less profitable flipping becomes.
2. Encourage people to be more patient. The more people who are willing to wait a few days to sell/buy items, the less profitable flipping becomes.

If you can get a game-wide movement going, great for you, you’ve found many like-minded people who think it is a problem and through your actions, will easily make flipping not worth the time.

For your reference, if you want to get an idea of an example of a Bartle breakdown of population : http://blog.gamerdna.com/2008/10/17/bartle-gender-and-wow/

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Amun Ra.6435:

nightwulf.1986:

…snip….I honestly don’t think it was expected that the sort of TP activity we’re seeing would evolve from the way the TP was set up, but I also see why they may not feel compelled to act on it.

There is also zero regulation of the TP. A player who has acquired massive amounts of gold has free reign to wreck havoc in any given market through manipulation or monopolies without fear of punishment. Where is the real world simulation in this?

And why should they fear punishment…John Smith himself states every chance he gets that he has no plans or inclinations to interfere with players interactions with the TP.

When prices are not where they need to be…where Anet wants them to be would be better putting it…are players accumulation of any given item considered? Is breaking up a monopoly considered? That would take hard work and I suppose it would be much easier to….

…further restrict loot.

Was the wealth not more evenly distributed before all the massive nerfs to open world farming? As I recall TP players were still bloating about much they were making…the only difference was, so were farmers. Sadly, this is not the case anymore.

Wouldn’t limiting TP transactions and increasing drop rates of top end goods more evenly distribute wealth? Sincere question as I am not an economist.

Per John

John Smith.4610:

A dozen players with 10k gold wouldn’t even scrape one of those markets.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Per John

John Smith.4610:

A dozen players with 10k gold wouldn’t even scrape one of those markets.

That was specific to certain markets within the economy quite some time ago. Ergo, it doesn’t necessarily apply to the over all context to which you quoted.

Ursan.7846:

In the end, flipping is a service. People spend money for convenience. This cannot be denied. As long as there is demand for this service, it will remain profitable. It’s the same as getting tipped for portal JPs or being paid to run people through dungeons in GW1.

I might have to debate on the validity of flipping here being a “service”. The demand is for the items, not the “service”. With or without the “service” the demand remains the same.

Essence Snow.3194:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Per John

John Smith.4610:

A dozen players with 10k gold wouldn’t even scrape one of those markets.

That was specific to certain markets within the economy quite some time ago. Ergo, it doesn’t necessarily apply to the over all context to which you quoted.

Ursan.7846:

In the end, flipping is a service. People spend money for convenience. This cannot be denied. As long as there is demand for this service, it will remain profitable. It’s the same as getting tipped for portal JPs or being paid to run people through dungeons in GW1.

I might have to debate on the validity of flipping here being a “service”. The demand is for the items, not the “service”. With or without the “service” the demand remains the same.

One problem we have in debates like this is we don’t have any information about volume. All we have are snapshots of current stock that are updated every couple of minutes. Without a good sense about the number of items traded in time between snapshots we may not have an actual grasp on the true volume of trades that are going on. Flippers have a better grasp of the true volume since they are acutely aware how fast an item is bought and sold by actually buying and selling the item in bulk.

Someone has to post bids and put items up for sale. Sure players can do it themselves but the majority of them are an impatient lot. They want coin or the item now, not in an hour/end of play session/day/week from now. That’s the service a flipper brings. They wait so you don’t have to. Yes it’s Pawn Stars of Tyria and Chumlee is a Charr.

Behellagh.1468:

Yes it’s Pawn Stars of Tyria and Chumlee is a Charr.

You, sir, just made my week. I wish there were a “like” button… so I could SMASH the thing!

Behellagh.1468:

One problem we have in debates like this is we don’t have any information about volume. All we have are snapshots of current stock that are updated every couple of minutes. Without a good sense about the number of items traded in time between snapshots we may not have an actual grasp on the true volume of trades that are going on. Flippers have a better grasp and the true volume since they are acutely aware how fast an item is bought and sold by actually buying and selling the item in bulk.

Someone has to post bids and put items up for sale. Sure players can do it themselves but the majority of them are an impatient lot. They want coin or the item now, not in an hour/end of play session/day/week from now. That’s the service a flipper brings. They wait so you don’t have to. Yes it’s Pawn Stars of Tyria and Chumlee is a Charr.

I agree, due to the nature of the subject not having the numbers does open it up to much more debate.

The person that got the drop…(initial seller) selling an item will put that item for sale. They don’t need a flipper to list it for them. The flipper needs that person to list their items or they don’t have anything to flip.

Buyers will post buy orders impatient or patient regardless of the flipper being involved.

Impatient buyers do not save time as they would get the item instantly either way.

Impatient sellers again save no time due to flippers as it again is instant.

Patient sellers lose time to flippers by being undercut.

Patient buyers lose time to flippers outbid.

The only time issues I see are losses.

The TP itself is the Pawn Shop. The program/server are the clerks. Idk what flippers would be in the analogy tbh. Maybe…. Chumlee, who doesn’t really do anything beneficial, but still gets paid…aka takes money from the shop.

Essence Snow.3194:

I might have to debate on the validity of flipping here being a “service”. The demand is for the items, not the “service”. With or without the “service” the demand remains the same.

It is a service. It gives people who want to buy/sell lower/higher prices. There are people who are willing to sacrifice a bit of money so their transactions happen immediately, and flippers provide a service by reducing the spread.

You completely misinterpret the word “demand.” There is demand for instant transactions at the cost of some gold as evidenced by the sheer fact that sell orders sell and buy orders fill. This is separate from the demand for the actual item, which you refer to.

Ursan.7846:

Essence Snow.3194:

I might have to debate on the validity of flipping here being a “service”. The demand is for the items, not the “service”. With or without the “service” the demand remains the same.

It is a service. It gives people who want to buy/sell lower/higher prices.

It does that for impatient buyers and sellers. It does the opposite for patient buyers and sellers.

There are people who are willing to sacrifice a bit of money so their transactions happen immediately, and flippers provide a service by reducing the spread.

For the impatient buyer/seller the transaction happens immediately regardless of the flipper. Since the flipper deals with the impatient buyer/seller, there is no reduction of time “service”.

You completely misinterpret the word “demand.” There is demand for instant transactions at the cost of some gold as evidenced by the sheer fact that sell orders sell and buy orders fill. This is separate from the demand for the actual item, which you refer to.

Can you reword this please? I’m not sure what your meaning is.

Essence Snow.3194:

Ursan.7846:

You completely misinterpret the word “demand.” There is demand for instant transactions at the cost of some gold as evidenced by the sheer fact that sell orders sell and buy orders fill. This is separate from the demand for the actual item, which you refer to.

Can you reword this please? I’m not sure what your meaning is.

There is a demand for instant gratification (getting an item right away, thus willing to pay higher). Then there’s a demand for just having an item (set on a price, and is willing to wait for it).

Essence Snow.3194:

Ursan.7846:

In the end, flipping is a service. People spend money for convenience. This cannot be denied. As long as there is demand for this service, it will remain profitable. It’s the same as getting tipped for portal JPs or being paid to run people through dungeons in GW1.

I might have to debate on the validity of flipping here being a “service”. The demand is for the items, not the “service”. With or without the “service” the demand remains the same.

The “service” provides “value” so while the demand may stay the same even if the “service” is not there the “value” over time will not.

You can say that’s not true, but without flippers trying to buy low/sell low the more seedy of us set in, and inflate the prices just out of reach and beyond what the average player is going to want to (let alone be able to) pay, and you still have the same issues since there will always be those who have more money than another and will still pay the price if they “want” something bad enough.

So then it all comes down to “want” and how bad any one person wants something.

Which I would say is pretty bad, because if there wasn’t so much “want” then flippers (or other TP player types) wouldn’t be shifting around money (while losing a % of it and not creating any new money into the game) to the point that these threads exist.

Essence Snow.3194:

It does that for impatient buyers and sellers. It does the opposite for patient buyers and sellers.

Priceline.com is a service. It allows shoppers to find cheap discounted rates for hotels. The hotels benefit by a higher volume of sales due to a lower price.

Flippers do the same thing. On a macro level, they lower prices so buyers get cheaper prices and sellers have a higher probability of moving their wares (an item has a 40s buy order and 80s sell order. That sell order is much less likely to sell than a sell order for an item of 55s buy order/65s sell order.) (And no, due to the volume of transaction for most markets in this game any impact flippers have by “undercutting” is negligible compared to the undercutting done by the population base as whole, working under the assumption that flippers comprise a minority of the population. If they’re the majority, flipping by definition won’t be profitable at all.)

Transactions are always a push/pull between the buyer/seller. Flippers help compromise between the two and make the transaction happen, which is a benefit to both sides.

Essence Snow.3194:

For the impatient buyer/seller the transaction happens immediately regardless of the flipper. Since the flipper deals with the impatient buyer/seller, there is no reduction of time “service”.

You’re not comprehending what I’m saying. The service flippers provide is to reduce the spread and give impatient buyers lower sell orders, and impatient sellers higher buy orders.

Essence Snow.3194:

Can you reword this please? I’m not sure what your meaning is.

People pay money for convenience. Hence with everything, to make this service unprofitable you can simply 1. reduce demand or 2. increase competition.

In that context I was referring to any added demand for the “service” that flipper supposedly supplies. I was saying that flippers do not provide instant gratification, nor do they reduce the amount of time for a buyer/seller.

If somehow they made the program process the transaction faster then okay, but they don’t. Instant is instant in our case and the flipper has zero bearing on that.

TBH.

The constant reference to patient vs. impatient buyer/seller starts to get a little offensive and insulting after awhile since some of you have this need to keep assuming that impatient people make up the total of those who do not use buy/sell orders and thus it is only the impatient people that empower flippers.

I’ll get back to ya in the morning. Although I agree with you on a few things, I disagree on most.

Ursan.7846:

Essence Snow.3194:

It does that for impatient buyers and sellers. It does the opposite for patient buyers and sellers.

Priceline.com is a service. It allows shoppers to find cheap discounted rates for hotels. The hotels benefit by a higher volume of sales due to a lower price.

I like that example, but imagine if Travelocity.com came along complaining how it was unfair that Priceline.com made more money than them faster because they were able to flip the flights/hotel rooms/car rentals faster due to more people wanting to pay them since they were somehow cheaper or maybe they just liked Shatner (at the time) better than the Gnome (at the time) so in order for their company to be competitive and reach equal footing with Priceline.com they needed a judge to place a profit limit on them.

Outside of some very, very rare and specific circumstances that would not happen.

Michael Fejervary.8576:

I like that example, but imagine if Travelocity.com came along complaining how it was unfair that Priceline.com made more money than them faster because they were able to flip the flights/hotel rooms/car rentals faster due to more people wanting to pay them since they were somehow cheaper or maybe they just liked Shatner (at the time) better than the Gnome (at the time) so in order for their company to be competitive and reach equal footing with Priceline.com they needed a judge to place a profit limit on them.

Outside of some very, very rare and specific circumstances that would not happen.

The proper analogy would be that the presence of multiple companies such as Priceline and Travelocity increase competition and thus makes the business itself less profitable. Same with flippers. More flippers = overall less profitability for themselves.

Or hotels and the travelers who work other jobs complaining that Priceline/Travelocity make more money then they do.

(PS in real life, there’s no “judge” which dictates that companies must make the same amount of money. Travelocity simply must find a celebrity more popular than Shatner, or they die. That is competition.)

But then this goes back to my explanation of wealth inequality in GW2 vs real life. Wealth inequality in GW2 is in itself is not a big problem as people try to make it to be. It does not impact a significant portion of the population, as the Bartles chart shows (Explorers will still explore, Killers will still kill, Socializers will still socialize, and Alligators will still alligate without access to Legendaries or Pyre dyes, and a good portion of Achievers may not even care about some of the specific limited-time items)

And you have to weight the significance of the perceived “problem” with several factors such as player inconvenience (not every flipper is wealthy) and developer man-hours. And my conclusion is it’s not worth it.

Essence Snow.3194:

I’ll get back to ya in the morning. Although I agree with you on a few things, I disagree on most.

There is nothing to disagree. Regardless of how you want to define specific words, I’m simply explaining to you why this phenomenon occurs and giving you real-world examples of it. And how, if you dislike it so much, you can take the steps I described which will lead to flipping to be less profitable.

Essence Snow.3194:

I’ll get back to ya in the morning. Although I agree with you on a few things, I disagree on most.

He’s trying to explain the way this stuff works. You can disagree all you want, but reality does not change to match what you want it to be.

The way the TP works, there is an opportunity to do things that some people recognize and make use of. If you change the way the TP works, those same people will adapt their strategy to the new rules and continue doing what they are doing – making money. Nothing is going to change that short of eliminating the TP altogether, which simply will not happen.

The TP is a simplified simulation of real-world commerce, and so many of the things that happen there also happen here, including wholesale buying and distribution. Traders who buy and sell through the TP are doing essentially the same thing that stores from Target to Saks Fifth Ave. do, buying items in bulk and selling them at a markup.

Michael Fejervary.8576:

TBH.

The constant reference to patient vs. impatient buyer/seller starts to get a little offensive and insulting after awhile since some of you have this need to keep assuming that impatient people make up the total of those who do not use buy/sell orders and thus it is only the impatient people that empower flippers.

Then explain why you would sell an item immediately at a 50% discount to the lowest sale price or buy an item that is twice the price of the highest bid? Because you like to overpay for an item or receive significantly less ifor selling it? Of course not, it’s because of the immediacy that you are willing pay a markup or accept a discount. If the root of that isn’t impatience than what is it?

Ursan.7846:

Michael Fejervary.8576:

I like that example, but imagine if Travelocity.com came along complaining how it was unfair that Priceline.com made more money than them faster because they were able to flip the flights/hotel rooms/car rentals faster due to more people wanting to pay them since they were somehow cheaper or maybe they just liked Shatner (at the time) better than the Gnome (at the time) so in order for their company to be competitive and reach equal footing with Priceline.com they needed a judge to place a profit limit on them.

Outside of some very, very rare and specific circumstances that would not happen.

The proper analogy would be that the presence of multiple companies such as Priceline and Travelocity increase competition and thus makes the business itself less profitable. Same with flippers. More flippers = overall less profitability for themselves.

Or hotels and the travelers who work other jobs complaining that Priceline/Travelocity make more money then they do.

But then this goes back to my explanation of wealth inequality in GW2 vs real life. Wealth inequality in GW2 is in itself is not a big problem as people try to make it to be. It does not impact a significant portion of the population, as the Bartles chart shows (Explorers will still explore, Killers will still kill, Socializers will still socialize, and Alligators will still alligate without access to Legendaries or Pyre dyes, and a good portion of Achievers may not even care about some of the specific limited-time items)

And you have to weight the significance of the perceived “problem” with several factors such as player inconvenience (not every flipper is wealthy) and developer man-hours. And my conclusion is it’s not worth it.

Essence Snow.3194:

I’ll get back to ya in the morning. Although I agree with you on a few things, I disagree on most.

There is nothing to disagree. Regardless of how you want to define specific words, I’m simply explaining to you why this phenomenon occurs and giving you real-world examples of it. And how, if you dislike it so much, you can take the steps I described which will lead to flipping to be less profitable.

the problems with the economy are not as simple as just the money distribution. But it is there, Essentially the more time passes, the more the wealth disparity will grow. Right now, the big thing is legendaries, and they are out of reach, but coming soon, it will be materials, whats the prices on those gonna be when it stands between everyone and ascended armors?
charged lodestone prices for teir 5 mats? (used to make teir 6 supposedly) that will put exotic prices up some numbers.
once some real high demand items hit the streets, or really rare, then you start to see the disparity matter. People can laugh off cosmetic legendaries, but will they be upset if ascended costs them like 200 gold? which is a pittance for the wealthy, but an insane amount for the regulars.

now perhaps the time gate they want to put on them will mitigate rise in value of some high end mats, but the problem is still there.
The larger the disparity in wealth, the bigger problems anet will have introducing any high demand, or high rarity items. And then all the player types will be pretty upset.

Its a problem, the market has a number of them, now maybe they wont want to solve these problems because, hey people are still playing. But the problems you dont deal with dont go away, they just stay around till they blow up in your face.

tolunart.2095:

Essence Snow.3194:

I’ll get back to ya in the morning. Although I agree with you on a few things, I disagree on most.

He’s trying to explain the way this stuff works. You can disagree all you want, but reality does not change to match what you want it to be.

The way the TP works, there is an opportunity to do things that some people recognize and make use of. If you change the way the TP works, those same people will adapt their strategy to the new rules and continue doing what they are doing – making money. Nothing is going to change that short of eliminating the TP altogether, which simply will not happen.

The TP is a simplified simulation of real-world commerce, and so many of the things that happen there also happen here, including wholesale buying and distribution. Traders who buy and sell through the TP are doing essentially the same thing that stores from Target to Saks Fifth Ave. do, buying items in bulk and selling them at a markup.

Essence isn’t one of the ones who believe flipper are manipulating the marketplace making items more expensive. His complaint is they can make more money doing this than any other activity even before the expected speedrun nerf. And that frosts him and he wants it to be equally nerfed by some means. Problem is any suggestions that have been tossed about, from 7 day wait on resale, account bound all purchases, limit maximum change on daily income or a tax on the extremely wealthy ranges from hurting everyone to outright class warfare driven by jealousy.

So how awful those flippers are for paying more for an item and selling items for less while making money at it. They need to be punished.

phys.7689:

Its a problem, the market has a number of them, now maybe they wont want to solve these problems because, hey people are still playing. But the problems you dont deal with dont go away, they just stay around till they blow up in your face.

The biggest problem is you seem to have an incredibly difficult time grasping the fact that the majority of the population does not think like you do.

Any arguments in which you try to equate to a high cost to a “problem” relies on an assumption that the entire player base is a pure consumer. They’re not. Ask any people when, if they obtained a Charged Lodestone, whether they would sell it or use it. Most of them will simply sell it, because not everyone is interested in creating a Sunrise or Infinite Light. Just because you want Charged Lodestones and you want it cheaper, doesn’t mean the rest of the population agrees with this fact (as evidenced by the fact that they’re listed for sale. Those are listed by players. You think they want cheaper Lodestones?)

This is because GW2’s horizontal progression is completely optional. It doesn’t punish anyone who doesn’t participate. So the Explores and the Killers and whatnot can do what they enjoy without participating in GW2’s progression system.

Also, prices are set by supply/demand of the entire playerbase, not just some wealthy cartel. This fact has been established over and over again in the old precursor complaint threads. The volume of transactions and the impossibility of monopolies make “manipulating” high value items such as precursors and Lodestones and impossibility (And data from gw2spidy.com shows that precursor/lodestone prices have remained remarkably stable. Where is this "rich people driving prices up phenomenon you speak of?)

Which is why I ultimately say that you overstate this “problem.” It doesn’t impact most players. Not every problem is black and white. Different problems have different degrees of severity, and one must judge the impact our “solutions” have on the playerbase as a whole and the amount of dev hours required when trying to determine whether this problem is severe enough to warrant it all or not.

Now if Ascended items were 200 G? Then there would be a much more significant problem for sure. But based on the fact that previous BiS equipment was completely separate from gold itself, I have no reason to believe it will be different.

Turamarth.3248:

If the material vanishes but the gold not wouldn´t that lead to an inflation?

It is natural for more and more gold to enter the system for an mmo and that is neither an inflation nor necessary a bad thing.

Imagine a game that has 1000 account, each account have an average of 10 gold, 10,000 gold in the entire system. Sometime later, the game has grow to 10,000 account and if each has 10gold on average again, there are now 100,000 gold in the system. Its only nature for the MMO’s economy to grow as the game grows.

Next is the assumption that more gold will lead to inflation. Again, wrong. Whether or not inflation happen is dependent on the ratio of gold to other materials/drop entering the economy. If ANet suddenly double the gold supply, but increase mob drops and harvesting nodes yield by 10x there will be no inflation, in fact, the cost of everything will drop and deflation will happen.

(note: By doubling gold supply I mean the gold that is left in the system after taking into account gold sinks)

Lastly, inflation is the economy’s way of finding an equilibrium, its the game’s way of telling the players “maybe you shouldn’t farm CoF path 1 so much and farm drops instead?”. Hyper inflation is bad, because it force the players to store their wealth in some other asset that is not as convenient as gold, but inflation itself isn’t.

Hum this is still going on.

Cymric.7368:

Turamarth.3248:

If the material vanishes but the gold not wouldn´t that lead to an inflation?

It is natural for more and more gold to enter the system for an mmo and that is neither an inflation nor necessary a bad thing.

Imagine a game that has 1000 account, each account have an average of 10 gold, 10,000 gold in the entire system. Sometime later, the game has grow to 10,000 account and if each has 10gold on average again, there are now 100,000 gold in the system. Its only nature for the MMO’s economy to grow as the game grows.

Yes but the increased population didn’t affect the per capita average.

Next is the assumption that more gold will lead to inflation. Again, wrong. Whether or not inflation happen is dependent on the ratio of gold to other materials/drop entering the economy. If ANet suddenly double the gold supply, but increase mob drops and harvesting nodes yield by 10x there will be no inflation, in fact, the cost of everything will drop and deflation will happen.

(note: By doubling gold supply I mean the gold that is left in the system after taking into account gold sinks)

No because you are describing a system that expanded naturally with population. The gold and drops per capita has remained the same.

Lastly, inflation is the economy’s way of finding an equilibrium, its the game’s way of telling the players “maybe you shouldn’t farm CoF path 1 so much and farm drops instead?”. Hyper inflation is bad, because it force the players to store their wealth in some other asset that is not as convenient as gold, but inflation itself isn’t.

And most definitely no. Inflation is a rise in the general level of prices of goods and services in an economy over a period of time. This happens when more gold is in the game and it’s not due to player growth. The average gold per player has increased but the supply of goods hasn’t. This means more gold chasing after the same supply of goods so prices will rise to a new equilibrium point. The change is due to inflation but inflation isn’t the method to get it there, that’s simple supply and demand.

Arguments that it is not ‘fair’ for flipping, on a large scale, to have substantially higher rewards than playing the game are well taken. It is correct that it is not fair.

Markets work because they get prices right and provide useful incentives. They can be downright unfair, punishing virtue and rewarding vice. Unfortunately we do not know of a system of commerce that is both fair and accurately prices things. We do not know of a system that is fair and provides useful incentives.

Flipping is not unfair. The entire system is unfair. It’s baked into the core.

The question can’t be whether it’s fair. It has to be whether it’s making outcomes worse, or better. To that, flipping unequivocally makes things better. It may return outlandish rewards for how much it makes things better – but it does make things better.

So we’ve obviously beat to death (and still not resolved) whether the flipper provides a service by helping the market to find the ‘true’ price. I believe this is correct, but would also likely happen without flippers; just at a much slower rate.

So, I would posit that the primary benefit of flippers is to increase market velocity, especially in markets where multiple flippers are competing. 1. This increases the rate at which the ‘true’ price is found. 2. More importantly, this increases transaction volume and flow of money through the TP (i.e. instead of x amount of gold flowing through the TP, you now get 5x, or some other multiplier). This increases dramatically the amount of TP tax being paid.

Does the flipper profit? Yes. (if he’s lucky and smart)
The people in the market being flipped also benefit from a lower spread on that item.
The amount of gold removed from the game is hugely significant, I would guess that as a gold sink, the TP tax is the largest by an order of magnitude. Therefore, I would conclude that the general player base (especially those who don’t play the market) reaps a great reward in lower general inflation.

Also, 1000 gold in the hands of one rich player has far less inflation potential than 1 gold in the hands of a thousand people.

Ahh…. it’s morning…..good morning!

Ok, maybe I can use this post to shed some light as atm we are still getting no where. (the Priceline thing was not going anywhere as they act primarily as a liaison which is where their service lies)

I am primarily concerned with the overall health of this mmo. One of the major aspects of health is population. MMO’s need players to be healthy. Anything that actively deters players from playing is a bad thing, kinda like a cancer. While a little cancer my not be necessarily having a large effect atm, it is still subject to growth and in general a bad thing. It is best to nip these type things in the bud.

I could honestly care less that flipping is the activity. That is not why it’s bad. It’s bad because of what it does. (remember even a little bad is still bad) It concentrates wealth by leaps and bounds over anything else in the game.

Now why is concentrated wealth via one unregulated avenue bad for GW2?

It’s unregulated while everything else is regulated. This ensures that it’s effect on the game will only grow over time. An insignificant bad will evolve into a more prevalent bad.

It creates a disparity in rewards in a genre where rewards are vital. There’s no doubt that one of the major complaints players have about GW2 is that it’s not rewarding. Rewards and a mmo go hand in hand. Saying rewards are not relevant to the health of a mmo is rather short sighted.

It’s created disparities may deter new players. This is (for me) the biggie. A new player might look at where rewards in GW2 have evolved and see that some have become seemingly unattainable. This may discourage them from playing. It’s created disparities may deter existing players. It serves to show players that they most likely will have to participate in something they do not enjoy to get to an overall endgame goal, which leads into point 3.

It creates a funneling effect/cattling effect. One of the major draws of GW2 is that players may do what they want and may still experience the whole game. This goes directly against that. It shows players that if they want to experience certain destinations (used non-literally) that they will have to participate in one avenue. (I know if u want pvp rewards u must pvp..not exactly the same) This in turn reduces incentive for other options which are the majority options.

It’s self defeating, but only after it does harm. Eventually as more and more players delve into the act of wealth concentration it does exactly that, but by the time it becomes unprofitable a mass has a large amount of wealth which has a very noticeable effect on the game. This leads us to prices.

If it were not for certain activities certain prices would not be possible. If not for CS farming, CoF p1, exploits, trading, etc…the game simple does not provide enough revenue for players to sustain elevated prices or certain items. If the game does not provide the means, the end simply will not happen. If everything rewards 1, 100 is not possible.

But given enough means of 1s then the end of 100 is possible. Well yes, but do to the nature of the relationship 100 will not remain the end. It serves to create a moving goal line effect. The closer one gets to the finish line, the farther away that line gets. 100 becomes 150, 200, 300, 500, etc etc…This is due to an unregulation effect on the end. The effect that this one avenue has while all other avenues are regulated.

Okay this post has become too long…….best to nip it in the bud b4 it becomes worse.

PS regulated to <5001…lol

Volthar.7058:

So we’ve obviously beat to death (and still not resolved) whether the flipper provides a service by helping the market to find the ‘true’ price. I believe this is correct, but would also likely happen without flippers; just at a much slower rate.

So, I would posit that the primary benefit of flippers is to increase market velocity, especially in markets where multiple flippers are competing. 1. This increases the rate at which the ‘true’ price is found. 2. More importantly, this increases transaction volume and flow of money through the TP (i.e. instead of x amount of gold flowing through the TP, you now get 5x, or some other multiplier). This increases dramatically the amount of TP tax being paid.

Does the flipper profit? Yes. (if he’s lucky and smart)
The people in the market being flipped also benefit from a lower spread on that item.
The amount of gold removed from the game is hugely significant, I would guess that as a gold sink, the TP tax is the largest by an order of magnitude. Therefore, I would conclude that the general player base (especially those who don’t play the market) reaps a great reward in lower general inflation.

Also, 1000 gold in the hands of one rich player has far less inflation potential than 1 gold in the hands of a thousand people.

I agree with at least some portion of what you said. I do not agree that people in the market benefit from flippers. I think that the impatient benefit (because of the smaller spread) and the patient suffer (because of the smaller spread).

John said something about “dead weight loss” but after reading about it, I still don’t understand how it applies in this case (I think it applies when prices are artificially too high or too low and not where there is a spread in the bid / ask).

TooBz.3065:

I think that the impatient benefit (because of the smaller spread) and the patient suffer (because of the smaller spread).

That’s incorrect. The reality is that both receive a more or less equal price, which is a more fair outcome.

It’s rather hypocritical to complain about flippers “leeching”, and then support the interests of only one of either patient or impatient players.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Lisa.6102:

SynfulChaot.3169:

It’s taking advantage of those that don’t understand the system as well. It is stealing and it’s dishonest. That is my view and you will not be able to convince me otherwise.

Are you serious? surely you can’t be

Yes. I am serious. I would say surely you can’t be, but your opinion is obvious.

You made my day Thats not ours fault that there are alot of dumb people who are not reading/ learning about game they play . Still we helping to stabilize prices , alot of flipers = higher buy orders ( more profit to sellers / dumb people) / lower sell orders ( easier way to aquire items for dumb people)

This whole conversation and the misinformation contained within is no different than every other game out there that has an in-game economy.

It never fails to amaze me at how so many in a game forum somehow feel the need to punish those who have large amounts of money (no matter how they got it), and in this games case its the misperception being put on those who play the TP.

The problem isn’t the flippers, and they are not the ones causing inflation (if anything they cause deflation for as long as they can obtain certain items).

Nope. The simple truth is the problem being with how ArenaNet has worked very hard to do everything they can to keep the player base poor in order to fight/curb future issues with inflation due to new coin being created and entering the economy.

This is why merchants pay GARBAGE for everything, and that we have so many more trophies and whites/blues as drops (when drops even happen).

This is also why they continue to decrease coin rewards on any and everything that they may have overlooked as having the potential to become way to profitable.

Bottom line.

Wealth moving around from average players to flippers (or other TP players) is not doing anything to the economy other than them finding a way to make money in a system that is regulated by ArenaNet to keep everyone poor.

Sure they can afford more than you, and pay higher prices than you, but that isn’t exactly their problem or fault anyway as OUR FELLOW PLAYERS help to set the prices on WANTED ITEMS and if they perceive the WANT or NEED to be great they are going to price them higher than you could afford with or without “Flippers” existing, because at some point someone else who still has more than you will buy it.

In the end inflation is not caused by them or the TP itself even.

It is caused by the lack of overall goods (and having so little merchant value to begin with) coming into the game filling the supply chain to levels that meet demand while maintaining a modest enough supply as to not create a huge shortage either (unless its intended to be a truly unique item).

The problem here in GW2 land is that WAY TO MUCH of the supply is kept so decreased in its ability to be obtained through drops that shortages are the norm instead of the occasional rare item being harder to come by thus worth more than the average player will be able to afford.

Every game with economies face this problem in some way, but due to choices by the developers to over fight inflation (as in how fast coin is coming into their game) it has become far more obvious at the seams far sooner than every other game I have played, and most of those did not start having these issues until a few years in (and GW2 isn’t even at 1 year yet) so just imagine what this thread will look like at year 2.

If all of you that think the TP is what the problem is and thus needs to be limited for profit gain, etc you just don’t have a clue. It won’t fix your so called woes or issues as you will still be poor, because that is how ArenaNet intended things to be.

No the problem isn’t the need to limit the TP in anyway (let alone fellow players ability to make whatever they can in it). The problem is ArenaNet trying to fight incoming coin so hard as to try to prevent perceived issues in other games with inflation that they are only creating new and unique issues with their own economy.

Behellagh.1468:

Michael Fejervary.8576:

TBH.

The constant reference to patient vs. impatient buyer/seller starts to get a little offensive and insulting after awhile since some of you have this need to keep assuming that impatient people make up the total of those who do not use buy/sell orders and thus it is only the impatient people that empower flippers.

Then explain why you would sell an item immediately at a 50% discount to the lowest sale price or buy an item that is twice the price of the highest bid? Because you like to overpay for an item or receive significantly less ifor selling it? Of course not, it’s because of the immediacy that you are willing pay a markup or accept a discount. If the root of that isn’t impatience than what is it?

Really? It needs explanation? Really?

Okay, then how’s this?

Some of us just don’t care about in-game coin (believe it or not, and this is only one example) to the point that many of our fellow gamers are getting their undies in a bunch about it as displayed in this thread alone.

We have our bags full and are just happy to click the BLTC button (as we are no where near a merchant and don’t want to pay 3s to WP) and sell to someone who wants something in our bag of junk and the only thing we care about is that the final amount we get after the fees is at least what a merchant is going to pay for it.

That’s not impatience. That’s just not caring if we are richer or poorer.

As for buying. Well, as I vendor almost 95% of everything I find (and am thus poor by my own choosing) I know what I feel something is worth and what I am willing to pay for it. If an item pops up that I feel fair I will buy it at the lowest price as I do not feel the need to waste my time placing buy orders for stuff that will never be fulfilled.

That’s not impatience either. I already know what I feel its worth, and what others feel its worth by looking up the item, and if I feel that my buy order based on my view of its worth is never going to be filled I am going to buy the cheapest one on the list unless I just don’t feel its worth it in which case I will just pass even the cheapest up and go farm it. Hmm, passing up cheapest non-buy orders in favor of farming it ones self. Yep that REEKS of impatience.

In the end. Your views and others views of buying/selling habits are yours, but many players do things for many (of their own) good reasons and it doesn’t just equate to impatience across the board, because you THINK or SAY so.

The End.

So it’s not just impatience, apathy is a factor as well. Good to know.