Guild Wars 2

Sigh, this is tiring. I had another response in mind complete with holes in your post, addressing the exerberant amount of biased remarks, and you personal opinions about “evidence” in lore, but honestly, I’m bored of this.

Two things though. One, evidence does not lie with me as I’m not the one making the claim that a Norn will beat a Charr. You are. I simply question the logic of your said “evidence.” Two, you’ve skirted around several questions without an answer to them.

With that, I leave your response to you. This debate has become extremely stale.

There comes a time when stubborness takes over logic, and this is a case in point.

they do have some very big disadvantages that keep them from taking over. Their huge individuality and their lack of organization. They have no common goal beyond fighting the Elder Dragons. and while a-net confirmed that they drove back the charr and that norn strength was enough to take on entire warbands, they also confirmed that an entire legion would have won against the norn. And I would infer that it had a large part to do with the advantages that the charr are known to have. organization, organized combat, ferocity, etc. So while they do have superhero strength, it is not limitless.

I think this best summarizes he situation, I was reading some of the lore on this part and looked like the charr underestimated the norn. They were going around with their warbands conquering new territory when when they first encountered the norn, At this point, it seemed like they only had experience fighting races like humans and didn’t think twice about it.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Sigh, this is tiring. I had another response in mind complete with holes in your post, addressing the exerberant amount of biased remarks, and you personal opinions about “evidence” in lore, but honestly, I’m bored of this.

Two things though. One, evidence does not lie with me as I’m not the one making the claim that a Norn will beat a Charr. You are. I simply question the logic of your said “evidence.” Two, you’ve skirted around several questions without an answer to them.

With that, I leave your response to you. This debate has become extremely stale.

There comes a time when stubborness takes over logic, and this is a case in point.

And with that, I’ll let the greater forum community make their own determinations about our entire dialog and decide for themselves wether or not a charr or a norn would tend to win.

lets not stray from the discussion at hand guys
to me what the Charr bring to the table the Norn has the same if not more with the Spirits of the Wild,given we pick 2 random individuals skilled in their respective races fighting style/hunting/tracking with similar weapons or even bare fisted.
as a race the Charr would win due to their military might and superior organization,one-on.-one tho i just dont see them winning it

I’d say it’s not a sure thing. it depends entirely on which Norn and which charr we are talking about. And which one is more drunk when the fight starts!

I cant help but notice allot of you folks have started arguing about the analogy you made and forgot about the question itself, also in mu opinion i think a Charr would beat a Norn in a fight simply because the Charr will have been doing it all its life while a Norn is off drinking or bragging a Charr is training. The Norn may have the strength advantage but strength is not everything for example I am a Wrestler on a team IRL and I have both lost to people weaker than me and beat people stronger than me. I lost becuase they had more experience and i won because I had a better grasp of the basics.
Long story short Strength does not make up for experience.

Exactly, there is a lot more to winning a fight than sheer strength. In high school I played football. Nobody was stronger than me period at my school as a senoir. Bench Press 365 Hang Clean 350, at 200 lbs.

However, I have gotten rocked a few times by much smaller opponents. I am certain that if you compared our stats. You wouldn’t be able to explain how this little corny little dude could ever rock me 1v1… hell… not even I could really explain it to you but it happened a few times. I would never mention his name.. lol

Point is that strength or any advantage is simply that… an advantage but when it comes to a fight: skill, technique, verocity, are all factors that are equally if not more important in my opinion.

B-B-But there was this one time when a norn defeated a whole warband by himself and its not a feat of extraordinary talent!

/sarcasmoff.

Anyways, you guys make some good points, some of which have been said, but certain lorehounds refuse to acknowledge them.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

B-B-But there was this one time when a norn defeated a whole warband by himself and its not a feat of extraordinary talent!

/sarcasmoff.

Anyways, you guys make some good points, some of which have been said, but certain lorehounds refuse to acknowledge them.

Are you taking a stance on this topic?

Dustfinger.9510:

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

B-B-But there was this one time when a norn defeated a whole warband by himself and its not a feat of extraordinary talent!

/sarcasmoff.

Anyways, you guys make some good points, some of which have been said, but certain lorehounds refuse to acknowledge them.

Are you taking a stance on this topic?

My personal opinion on the subject matter is too biased for it to truly matter, other than for the “jesting for fun” commentary.

However, I do make stance that there is unavailable evidence on the claim that the few incidents/results involved in PAST conflicts between Norn and Charr are the norm. And that circumstances can be the actual ultimate decider in any conflict. Further, I do think several other posters here have some very valid, unanswered points.

I also think it funny that certain individuals do not even acknowledge the possibility of a win for either one, but that could simply be chalked up to bias fan-mentality.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

My personal opinion on the subject matter is too biased for it to truly matter, other than for the “jesting for fun” commentary.

However, I do make stance that there is unavailable evidence on the claim that the few incidents/results involved in PAST conflicts between Norn and Charr are the norm. And that circumstances can be the actual ultimate decider in any conflict. Further, I do think several other posters here have some very valid, unanswered points.

I also think it funny that certain individuals do not even acknowledge the possibility of a win for either one, but that could simply be chalked up to bias fan-mentality.

(It’s admirable that you can acknowledge and identify the limits of your own bias. Most people aren’t on that level.)

I don’t see how conflicts in the past could be dismissed so easily. Any historical evidence would need to have already happened in the past. Because it is definitive proof of what did happen in multiple circumstances. And the particular incident when they did fight has shown us that all the personal advantages that norn have at their disposal (including strength) was enough to generally overcome all the personal advantages the charr had at their disposal. The caveat being that even greater numbers of charr would have been the deciding factor in charr favour. But that isn’t a personal advantage for charr. It is a group advantage.

I can say that personally, my stance has been that even though anything is possible and some charr will win in some circumstances, my entire stance on this topic has been toward what would tend to happen. And we have already been shown what would tend to happen. So personal anecdotes about getting beat by smaller guys and issues about other advantages being a factor have been addressed. At least by me.

So in an effort to find common ground, we atleast agree that a charr can win in one on one combat with a norn. I just don’t think it would be the general rule in most circumstances. And I think my point of view is backed up by the lore a-net has created. So we can imagine circumstances that would skew the odds so far in charr favour that the charr would start to win regularly, but if we do that we have no reason to even discus the topic.

The reason I put so much emphasis on the past was because that is just what the lore is in this case. You have the view that Norn have not changed in comparison to the past with current lore, correct? And that the general direction Anet is taking is the same stance?

I have the opposite view, I look at it that the Norn have become weaker compared to the past and that this is the general direction Anet is going. I know, game mechanics require Norns to be weaker than legend because of balancing, but this would certainly explain it with lore and make complete sense.

Lorewise, GW1 Norn certainly lives up to the legend. GW2 Norn does not and has become weaker due to several factors. That’s the direction I see Anet going and thus why I see either side having equal chances of winning.

….and that the Charr would win hands down despite equal chances.

……… Okay, okay, that last remark was just my bias coming out.

:P

I see. We will have to agree to disagree on that point but that’s okay. Right now I see no lore evidence of it but if it does turn out that you are correct and a-net confirms that the Norn are getting weaker, then I will have to start factoring that into my posts.

The strongest norn ever is probably physically stronger than the strongest charr ever.However we are talking about a battle ,not arm wrestling.Skill and agility matter just as much if not more.

Also a charr engineer would take out any norn.

And if we are talking about a pitched battle the charr win,hands down.Nothing beats a massive volley of gunpowder weapons + canons and mortars.

Kaedus.8051:

The strongest norn ever is probably physically stronger than the strongest charr ever.However we are talking about a battle ,not arm wrestling.Skill and agility matter just as much if not more.

Also a charr engineer would take out any norn.

And if we are talking about a pitched battle the charr win,hands down.Nothing beats a massive volley of gunpowder weapons + canons and mortars.

Even though I like the Charr more, the lore does seem to say that the Norn are considerably stronger. It’s kind of disappointing (haha), but I guess they need some kind of competition!

As mostly a pro-charr player (been leading a successful charr RP guild), I’d say norn.

Without going into details and specific lore characters, an average charr soldier against an average norn hunter, whilst emphasizing on the “average”, it’s clear a norn wins.

Charr as a race aren’t known by their individual prowess, strength and battle experience. They train as a warband, fight as a warband and die as one. There are exceptions, but those pale in comparison to the “fight as a pack” concept.

So just as mentioned earlier, both races have their pros and cons. Fair duels isn’t the way charr win wars, charr fights dirty and smart. On the true battlefield and in war in todays age, charr would win, no doubt in my mind.

this

Making it simple:
A duel between a norn and a charr, norn wins.
A war between norn and charr, charr wins.

I don’t get why people are trying to use “This is the Charr forum” as an actual argument. Location and crowd favoritism doesn’t play a role when it comes to define facts. A question was asked here, so it is natural that its answer should be here as well.

Now, norn were downscaled in GW2, as it would be highly impractical to control gigantic characters. Just imagine the JPs…
And even taking height in GW2 as a hard fact, it’s not like a Charr would enjoy having his back straight during combat. To top a norn’s height, a charr needs to put some effort into it, whereas the norn just needs to stand.
Again, this is irrelevant, as Norn are smaller due to game mechanics.

Every race has its strengths and weaknesses. An individual Norn has an edge over an individual Charr, but if we’re talking about battles in a larger scale, the Charr are more likely to claim victory due to their dominion over the art of war.

Though I’m not free of personal bias, I dare say that I like both Charr and Norn, perhaps I’m even more inclined towards the Charr due to their amazing lore.

I am chorrn, half charr half norn and my own best friend.

Rouven.7409:

I am chorrn, half charr half norn and my own best friend.

The Chorrn were wiped out by the Asurmans according to lore.

way to necro months old thread guys lol. but here’s to settle the argument once and for all:
Shaska Kaldmorn: “Whew! That was a close fight. We’re earned ourselves a pint of ale. Maybe even a whole keg.”
Reztiff Sunderfoe: “Careful. We have to patrol later. You can’t sight enemies if you’re drunk.”
Shaska Kaldmorn: “What? I am norn! Ale-goggles sharpen our vision! And ale-fists hit hard.”
Reztiff Sunderfoe: “(chuckle) Is that so? Well, charr hit hard all the time.”

Nay of the Ether.8913:

way to necro months old thread guys lol. but here’s to settle the argument once and for all:
Shaska Kaldmorn: “Whew! That was a close fight. We’re earned ourselves a pint of ale. Maybe even a whole keg.”
Reztiff Sunderfoe: “Careful. We have to patrol later. You can’t sight enemies if you’re drunk.”
Shaska Kaldmorn: “What? I am norn! Ale-goggles sharpen our vision! And ale-fists hit hard.”
Reztiff Sunderfoe: “(chuckle) Is that so? Well, charr hit hard all the time.”

Yep, that wins the arguement.

Not goin off lore, (Im kinda new, and dont kno much about each) but based upon appearance, charr. Charr are giant cats with razor sharp claws, and are known for being warriors. Norn, however, are just large humans. And, they seem to be less violent. Like irl, if an average 5’9’’ man went against a tiger, the guy would get wrecked. XD thats just my noob view on it tho.

Drakkon.4782:

Dustfinger and his pro-Norn ilk

Drakkon.4782:

The Charr rule here, meat, and pro-Norn attitudes will not prevail.

Drakkon.4782:

CorvusRex.8349:

Go Norn or go home.
The answer is simple. Norn are masters of the hunt, and Charr are beasts to be hunted.

You are in the wrong place for that sort of attitude…

Drakkon.4782:

Charr board. You want to be all Norn, you have your own board. Go there.

I just want to say this had me cracking up. I think you’re taking your charr RP a little too seriously (and personally), bud.

That aside, I play four sylvari, three asura, a human, and a charr. I played a norn once but didn’t care for it much. In a one on one fight? I’d put my money on the norn every time.

Honestly, just go play Guild Wars 1. The norn in GW2 have been dumbed down a bit into a bunch of drunk stereotypes, even though they are still intimidating. In the original game, when I interacted with norn, it felt like I could do something wrong and one of them would go bananas at any moment and rip my poor, tiny human limb from limb without even a modicum of effort or care, or maybe even kill me on accident by looking at me too hard, and I was the guy who (in my mind anyway), dealt with the lich, beat down on Shiro, and handled Abaddon’s baloney.

Jora was especially alarming. And much bigger than the GW2 norn. They were positively massive in GW1.

The argument of the difference in size / strength between the norn of gw1 and gw2 is false. Charrs have always been bigger in size, but appear smaller because they are inclined.
Charrs and Norns have always had a power almost equal. But in war, charrs are far superior

arthurobenzi.2619:

Charrs and Norns have always had a power almost equal.

I’d question the source for this. In GW1 they are savage and dangerous but we routinely kill multiple charr. Then we run into a lone norn (Jora) and Ogden Stonehealer was extremely worried about her killing the hero PC, Vekk, himself, and their 3-7 allies.

Oh boy, here we go again.

Here’s one: Norn aren’t what they used to be just like Charr are different from the past.

Where’s the lore that states Norn haven’t gotten weaker since the days of GW1? Where’s the lore that states Charr are weaker than Norn in current GW2 times?

Going off of a combo of what arthurobenzi and Gieniusz Krab are stating: is it possible that the GW1 Charr were just as powerful as GW1 Norn but were considered weaker because of their savagery?

Rouven.7409:

I am chorrn, half charr half norn and my own best friend.

Im glad someone else appreciates Space Balls. lol..

In all scenarios, id say both the norn, and the charr, are both capable of winning either time.

A fight, would depend almost exclusively on experience and skill. Ive also seen the argument that the norn are better individual fighters vs the charrs fight as one mentality.

It would go back to the skill and experience. I would say a 50/50 chance for both sides of this topic. Also never underestimate a foe, sometimes, the least likely to win, wins.

Situation, specific. Each have strengths and weaknesses so agian 50/50.

Norn, hands down. Norn are known to lift impossible weights even in their youth. Well, the Charr might stand a chance if the Norn started boasting

norn have supernatural strength, so what? if i bite their neck they die. if i rip their throat they die. like every predator charr have weapons built in within their bodies. i wonder how strong a norn is after the arteria brachialis is cut.
norn are meat. bigger meat, yes. that only means there is more to eat.

Charr are kittens compared to Norn brawn.

if i may refresh your education: kittens are fierce and lethal furry balls of immediate pain and death.

Who would win between a norn and a charr?

The asura.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Oh boy, here we go again.

Here’s one: Norn aren’t what they used to be just like Charr are different from the past.

Where’s the lore that states Norn haven’t gotten weaker since the days of GW1? Where’s the lore that states Charr are weaker than Norn in current GW2 times?

Going off of a combo of what arthurobenzi and Gieniusz Krab are stating: is it possible that the GW1 Charr were just as powerful as GW1 Norn but were considered weaker because of their savagery?

Where’s the lore that states charr and norn aren’t really aspects of the same being? The idea that norn are weaker than they used to be isn’t lore. it’s an unconfirmed theory on the lore.

The fact that the norns have a higher strength than charrs is determined by the lore, it’s true. But here the issue is not the strength or weightlifting, but a power ratio in a 1vs1 battle. And in terms of power, norns and charrs are roughly equal if both are the same size (a large norn male > a small charr female) . Because if you take a big norn hero, you need to have a big charr of high rank as opponent , otherwise the argument has no value.

Dustfinger.9510:

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Oh boy, here we go again.

Here’s one: Norn aren’t what they used to be just like Charr are different from the past.

Where’s the lore that states Norn haven’t gotten weaker since the days of GW1? Where’s the lore that states Charr are weaker than Norn in current GW2 times?

Going off of a combo of what arthurobenzi and Gieniusz Krab are stating: is it possible that the GW1 Charr were just as powerful as GW1 Norn but were considered weaker because of their savagery?

Where’s the lore that states charr and norn aren’t really aspects of the same being? The idea that norn are weaker than they used to be isn’t lore. it’s an unconfirmed theory on the lore.

So it’s quite possible then.

Let me also point out that there are several instances in the game story that do strongly suggest it. I’m not going to take the time to point them out. You can discover them yourself, so you may dismiss that point altogether. In a debate, it would be.

arthurobenzi.2619:

The fact that the norns have a higher strength than charrs is determined by the lore, it’s true. But here the issue is not the strength or weightlifting, but a power ratio in a 1vs1 battle. And in terms of power, norns and charrs are roughly equal if both are the same size (a large norn male > a small charr female) . Because if you take a big norn hero, you need to have a big charr of high rank as opponent , otherwise the argument has no value.

I think the proponents of Norns are saying they have a superhuman type of strength that is more than what a Charr could hope to produce, and that this same type of strength gives them an automatic win.

Not automatic, simply daunting if the Charr goes in unprepared.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

So it’s quite possible then.

Let me also point out that there are several instances in the game story that do strongly suggest it. I’m not going to take the time to point them out. You can discover them yourself, so you may dismiss that point altogether. In a debate, it would be.

Sure it’s possible. A near infinite amount of things are possible. Just like the idea that charr and norn are just different aspects of the same being. As I said the last time we spoke about it, if a-net ever confirms that norn are weaker than they used to be then i’ll factor that information into my posts.

My only point above though, was that a posts saying that charr have always been on par with norn seems unfactual. because as far as I know, a-net has confirmed no such thing. and even if norn actually have gotten weaker, it would still make that post untrue.

Gorilla < Tiger < Grizzly Bear

Largest recorded specimens

up to 586 lbs < up to 847 lbs < many recorded over 1,500 lbs

Norn < Charr < Bear form Norn

Using SCIENCE!

Yes but here the two specimen have the same weight, and here the ratio of strength is not important since it is a power ratio. And for science, charrs have a different anatomy than the felins , mainly for the bust ( since the pelvis) , the arms and the head ( neck included ).

Well a Charr would probably win if it was one on one. Because Charr are slightly more Evil.

Evil will always triumph because Good is dumb.

Again, science.

Near the beginning of The Sea of Sorrows, two norn brothers took on a full boarding squad of charr and were winning. Not only were they winning…they were bored

Stephen.5069:

Well a Charr would probably win if it was one on one. Because Charr are slightly more Evil.

Evil will always triumph because Good is dumb.

Again, science.

+5 for ‘Spaceballs’ quote

Razor.9872:

Near the beginning of The Sea of Sorrows, two norn brothers took on a full boarding squad of charr and were winning. Not only were they winning…they were bored

This is why you don’t send rangers to the front of the line.

If we talk lore, it’s norn.
But then again norns have been scaled down for in-game purposes.
If I’d have to wager on in-game model duel.
Max-sized charr is quite a big deal bigger than a max-sized norn(taller? Well human is also taller than a bear if a bear stands on 4 paws when human stands on his 2 feet!). Wields significantly bigger weapons too(in-game of course), not to mention claws, horns, much bigger teeth and jaw. A winner would be obvious.

Evalia.7103:

If we talk lore, it’s norn.
But then again norns have been scaled down for in-game purposes.
If I’d have to wager on in-game model duel.
Max-sized charr is quite a big deal bigger than a max-sized norn(taller? Well human is also taller than a bear if a bear stands on 4 paws when human stands on his 2 feet!). Wields significantly bigger weapons too(in-game of course), not to mention claws, horns, much bigger teeth and jaw. A winner would be obvious.

Yes.

It’s still the asura.

It as always depends on the Variables.
In one on one combat the Norn will have the advantage due to build. However the Charr would probably win if the charr had the ability for a running start Pounce, the powerful hind legs plus a solid mass of muscle and fur hitting the upper torso might break said Norns back, or at least severely hurt him.

give the norn its animal form and its a totaly defrent story. Norn lore Wise are supose to be able to asume theyre animal form at will. In GW2 the elite was given a cooldown to avoid ’’OPNESS’’… remember bear totem in GW1 youl know why they nerfed it in GW2.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Razor.9872:

Near the beginning of The Sea of Sorrows, two norn brothers took on a full boarding squad of charr and were winning. Not only were they winning…they were bored

This is why you don’t send rangers to the front of the line.

lol