Guild Wars 2

I agree that the community wants to get back to the dragons, but I think that is one of the reasons Anet is taking awhile to get back to them. Many players didn’t like how Zhaitan was done, since they thought he lacked any depth or personality. They might be extending the LS a bit, so the writing team has some extra time to flesh out the other Elder Dragons and their minions.

Because as of right now, other than Jormag and the Sons, almost all the other Elder Dragons and their minions are totally blank slates personality-wise. Or, they are totally unknown in the case of Bubbles and Mordremoth.

True. 1 year later is definitely enough time to start back on the main story again. Hopefully this arc is wrapped up this update, and the next one begins a new one, as I feel that it’s becoming a bit stretched out already. Hell, I’ve spent more time fighting aetherblades than the relatively short time it took to beat Zhaitan in the PS.

On the topic of Elder Dragons and their (lack of) personalities, I am kind of hopeful that one of the Elder Dragons surprises us all by talking directly to our characters. If executed well, it could be scary and awesome.

Eldrake.1543:

On the topic of Elder Dragons and their (lack of) personalities, I am kind of hopeful that one of the Elder Dragons surprises us all by talking directly to our characters. If executed well, it could be scary and awesome.

I was hoping Zhaitan would’ve gone Sovereign on us as he circled around the Glory of Tyria or when he clung into the gods’ palace for dear “unlife.” Desperate curses and threats, etc.

Or better, uttering something incomprehensible and horrible on an ancient, twisted tongue like the Dragonspawn did when invoking Jormag.

Eldrake.1543:

On the topic of Elder Dragons and their (lack of) personalities, I am kind of hopeful that one of the Elder Dragons surprises us all by talking directly to our characters. If executed well, it could be scary and awesome.

‘If executed well…’

Based on what we’ve seen thus far, that’s a pretty big ‘if’. I fear this, or something very much like it, is what an Elder Dragon would have to say:

Elder Dragon: With your ancient, juvenile minds you have developed anti-dragon technologies too fast for your minds to conceive what you are doing. Because all you of Tyria are idiots! Your stupid minds! Stupid, stupid! Fry fry fry! Fry fry fry! Ah hahahahaha!

BobbyStein.2315:

I can’t comment on what Ree and Jeff are working on, but I can say that I’m ultimately responsible for the quality of the Living World story. I don’t imagine we’ll please everyone with our new direction, but that’s true of any story. That stated, I encourage people to leave their feedback. Just please be respectful.

It’s hard, man.. I don’t like a lot of the lore changes from GW1 to GW2. The main ones are the HUUUUGEEE retcon on the gods.. they went from the gods that created tyria & everything on it to semi-powerful beings that only the humans even talk about & they aren’t even in the game any more.

But after a while I slowly accepted it. The Dragons are boring enemies but at least they look cool & are “epic”. So I slowly warmed up to things.. & with the speculation of the recent events & how they may link to the Asura story line, I was getting jazzed again! it was the first time I was EXCITED by the story in GW2. the FIRST TIME.

Then Scarlet came..

I’m trying to be respectful here but also be true to how i feel about this character. I’m not trying to make a personal attack, I don’t think anyone should be fired, etc.. that’s just idiotic.
That’s being said.. Scarlet is the stupidest character in all of GW. She’s annoying, not menacing, not witty, looks stupid, she’s Sylvari (can we get off the Sylvari for once) her back story is not believable(tbh, the more I find out the more ridiculous she’s becoming) and her power-level makes great, mysterious enemies like the Mursaat look wimpy & ineffectual. Worst of all, is her actual personally. The sassy, “crazy”, rebellious teen is… its annoying.

Other things like the gods retcons can be begrudgingly accepted. They still feel wrong, but the story can move forward. For Scarlet i feel like the only way to fix it is to make her back story a dream, or a lie (like what was done with the gw1 gods lore) or an illusion that someone put on her. & the Alliance of the 3 armies? maybe someone else actually did it.. but leaving things as the are.. I’m gonna believe scarlet is non-canon, just ignore the actual story from now on, or just move on till scarlet blows over.. And know more about a character’s background doesn’t make them better. Sometimes the mystery makes them cool, so explaining more & more doesn’t make her not annoying.

As far as the Elder Dragons, I think if they went full Chthulu with them, like totally horror, they could be amazing. less “blow things up” & more mind-warping horror.

DarksunG.9537:

It’s hard, man.. I don’t like a lot of the lore changes from GW1 to GW2. The main ones are the HUUUUGEEE retcon on the gods.. they went from the gods that created tyria & everything on it to semi-powerful beings that only the humans even talk about & they aren’t even in the game any more.

Oh, they’re in the game. At least, Grenth does make an appearance. And of course “they created the world” as according to some human myth. Only, I don’t remember it saying that in my copy of the Manuscripts.

In fact I just pulled it out . . . and there’s no mention of the world creation . . .

Then Scarlet came..

I’m trying to be respectful here but also be true to how i feel about this character. I’m not trying to make a personal attack, I don’t think anyone should be fired, etc.. that’s just idiotic.
That’s being said.. Scarlet is the stupidest character in all of GW. She’s annoying, not menacing, not witty, looks stupid, she’s Sylvari (can we get off the Sylvari for once) her back story is not believable(tbh, the more I find out the more ridiculous she’s becoming) and her power-level makes great, mysterious enemies like the Mursaat look wimpy & ineffectual. Worst of all, is her actual personally. The sassy, “crazy”, rebellious teen is… its annoying.

Personally, I found the Mursaat weak and ineffectual when I wasn’t playing HM or stupidly charging into the middle of them. After you get Infused, they’re really easy to deal with. I find Scarlet not really a challenge with the “group” intended to be fighting her.

So, in both cases? I wouldn’t say she’s more powerful than the Mursaat. I’d say the Mursaat still are more powerful among the things potentially still around in Tyria.

Other things like the gods retcons can be begrudgingly accepted. They still feel wrong, but the story can move forward. For Scarlet i feel like the only way to fix it is to make her back story a dream, or a lie (like what was done with the gw1 gods lore) or an illusion that someone put on her. & the Alliance of the 3 armies? maybe someone else actually did it.. but leaving things as the are.. I’m gonna believe scarlet is non-canon, just ignore the actual story from now on, or just move on till scarlet blows over.. And know more about a character’s background doesn’t make them better. Sometimes the mystery makes them cool, so explaining more & more doesn’t make her not annoying.

“A lie”? Okay, what was the lie, other than one of omission about Abaddon?

DarksunG.9537:

It’s hard, man.. I don’t like a lot of the lore changes from GW1 to GW2. The main ones are the HUUUUGEEE retcon on the gods.. they went from the gods that created tyria & everything on it to semi-powerful beings that only the humans even talk about & they aren’t even in the game any more.

I think you need to brush up on your lore before you start making criticisms.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Exodus_of_the_Gods

The gods did not create the world of Tyria. The creation of Tyria by the gods is a human myth. As for the gods no longer being on Tyria, this has been the case since before the events of GW1. The gods left Tyria a very long time ago.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Personally, I found the Mursaat weak and ineffectual when I wasn’t playing HM or stupidly charging into the middle of them. After you get Infused, they’re really easy to deal with. I find Scarlet not really a challenge with the “group” intended to be fighting her.

So, in both cases? I wouldn’t say she’s more powerful than the Mursaat. I’d say the Mursaat still are more powerful among the things potentially still around in Tyria.

The Mursaat might be more powerful than Scarlet, if there were any of them left. The only Mursaat who is suspected to still exist on Tyria is Lazarus the Dire. That’s not to say they can’t come back. After all, they left under their own power.

Quarktastic.1027:

DarksunG.9537:

It’s hard, man.. I don’t like a lot of the lore changes from GW1 to GW2. The main ones are the HUUUUGEEE retcon on the gods.. they went from the gods that created tyria & everything on it to semi-powerful beings that only the humans even talk about & they aren’t even in the game any more.

I think you need to brush up on your lore before you start making criticisms.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Exodus_of_the_Gods

The gods did not create the world of Tyria. The creation of Tyria by the gods is a human myth. As for the gods no longer being on Tyria, this has been the case since before the events of GW1. The gods left Tyria a very long time ago.

They officially decided to stop interfering at the end of Nightfall, after Kormir’s Ascension to fill the Sixth position.

Quarktastic.1027:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Personally, I found the Mursaat weak and ineffectual when I wasn’t playing HM or stupidly charging into the middle of them. After you get Infused, they’re really easy to deal with. I find Scarlet not really a challenge with the “group” intended to be fighting her.

So, in both cases? I wouldn’t say she’s more powerful than the Mursaat. I’d say the Mursaat still are more powerful among the things potentially still around in Tyria.

The Mursaat might be more powerful than Scarlet, if there were any of them left. The only Mursaat who is suspected to still exist on Tyria is Lazarus the Dire. That’s not to say they can’t come back. After all, they left under their own power.

The only Mursaat we know of, mind you, as there were some active in the Battle for Lion’s Arch. Supposedly there were eight left including Lazarus. Four were destroyed during that battle for certain. Koril the Malignant died at the Temple of Tolerance, Aily the Innocent died in Shaemoor, Willem the Demeaning died during an assassination in Riverside Province.

But we don’t know if any others exist, and were not directly involved in the Krytan Civil War.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Quarktastic.1027:

DarksunG.9537:

It’s hard, man.. I don’t like a lot of the lore changes from GW1 to GW2. The main ones are the HUUUUGEEE retcon on the gods.. they went from the gods that created tyria & everything on it to semi-powerful beings that only the humans even talk about & they aren’t even in the game any more.

I think you need to brush up on your lore before you start making criticisms.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Exodus_of_the_Gods

The gods did not create the world of Tyria. The creation of Tyria by the gods is a human myth. As for the gods no longer being on Tyria, this has been the case since before the events of GW1. The gods left Tyria a very long time ago.

They officially decided to stop interfering at the end of Nightfall, after Kormir’s Ascension to fill the Sixth position.

yes. Apparently it was Kormir’s idea and she managed to persuade all the other gods to accept it. Proving, again, that nothing good ever comes from her involvement.

Astralporing.1957:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Quarktastic.1027:

DarksunG.9537:

It’s hard, man.. I don’t like a lot of the lore changes from GW1 to GW2. The main ones are the HUUUUGEEE retcon on the gods.. they went from the gods that created tyria & everything on it to semi-powerful beings that only the humans even talk about & they aren’t even in the game any more.

I think you need to brush up on your lore before you start making criticisms.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Exodus_of_the_Gods

The gods did not create the world of Tyria. The creation of Tyria by the gods is a human myth. As for the gods no longer being on Tyria, this has been the case since before the events of GW1. The gods left Tyria a very long time ago.

They officially decided to stop interfering at the end of Nightfall, after Kormir’s Ascension to fill the Sixth position.

yes. Apparently it was Kormir’s idea and she managed to persuade all the other gods to accept it. Proving, again, that nothing good ever comes from her involvement.

Apparently it was Kormir’s idea.

. . . seriously, citation needed for that one.

I’m just waiting for Anet to match Trahearne against Scarlet in the most epic battle of good versus evil since Longcat vs Tacgnol.

Though I’m indifferent (which is somewhat of a negative, since I’d like to be excited) to the current “steampunk arc” of the LS, I hope they salvage it with the very last installment going into the lair of the villain behind the scenes, who just used Scarlet as the “public” face for his/her operations. Maybe even go all the way regarding Anet’s inspiration and make Scarlet the Harley Quinn to an as-of-yet unknown Joker.

Astralporing.1957:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Quarktastic.1027:

DarksunG.9537:

It’s hard, man.. I don’t like a lot of the lore changes from GW1 to GW2. The main ones are the HUUUUGEEE retcon on the gods.. they went from the gods that created tyria & everything on it to semi-powerful beings that only the humans even talk about & they aren’t even in the game any more.

I think you need to brush up on your lore before you start making criticisms.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Exodus_of_the_Gods

The gods did not create the world of Tyria. The creation of Tyria by the gods is a human myth. As for the gods no longer being on Tyria, this has been the case since before the events of GW1. The gods left Tyria a very long time ago.

They officially decided to stop interfering at the end of Nightfall, after Kormir’s Ascension to fill the Sixth position.

yes. Apparently it was Kormir’s idea and she managed to persuade all the other gods to accept it. Proving, again, that nothing good ever comes from her involvement.

You didn’t read that bit about the exodus of the gods did you? The gods themselves once resided (physically) in the world of Tyria. Three of the gods lived in the city of Arah. The gods left Tyria in the year 0 B.E. One year after Abaddon granted magic to the humans of Tyria.

The only contact with the gods since then has been with their avatars. Beings who are connected to the gods, but are not gods themselves. Dervishes could become avatars of the gods.

DarksunG.9537:

It’s hard, man.. I don’t like a lot of the lore changes from GW1 to GW2. The main ones are the HUUUUGEEE retcon on the gods.. they went from the gods that created tyria & everything on it to semi-powerful beings that only the humans even talk about & they aren’t even in the game any more.

Actually DarkSun, (as the others have already mentioned) there weren’t any retcons with the gods in GW1 at all. The source claiming they created the world, the races, and magic was a fallible human storyteller (who got turned into risen and was then released on Lion’s Arch). It’s just a human (and charr as well, as they also have legends about Melandru creating – read: terraforming – the world) myth.

It was pretty guarenteed they didn’t create humanity either, especially after the ‘An Empire Divided’ was published. It makes a lot more sense they brought humanity to Tyria from their original homeworld. It’s a very neat concept.

However, then the retcons they are trying to force down our throat is just outrageous. The gods should not be just immortal humans with powerful magic, but immortal humans, angels, and maybe other races who were capable of internalizing and holding an eternal aspect (and all its inherent powers) of the Mists… just as GW1 heavily implied they are.

The dragons should never ever be more powerful than the gods. Dragons are not divine, and the most logical reason for their Elder state is the fact they are the top dragons who consumed all their brethren and several cycles of magic and magical civilizations. But then due to the fact they are the same dragons they were millennia ago (with the primary function to keep magical levels steady – not low, not high, but comfortable), they eventually bleed that magic out. The power behind a god is eternal on the other hand. In battle, the gods should have the upper hand. The only risk would be the devastation such battles could cause to the world, or the frightening concept of a dragon corrupting a god into its servitude – unlikely, but possible. (Dragons can’t consume the power of a god – they don’t have the divine nature/knowledge to soak it up and hold it inside.)

Norn’s view of the gods is fitting, as the humans say the Spirits of the Wild are just different avatars of the gods (they say the humans have their own spirits symbolizing higher concepts, which is more or less true – it’s just that those ‘spirits’ are real people with their own identities and personalities). Charr try to apply their anti-god propaganda to the Six as well (which is also fitting thematically, but should never be the case – see above). Asura consider them large cogs in the Eternal Alchemy. Which is fine for as long as they don’t forget to add that the Six are friggin’ large cogs of the Eternal Alchemy. And sylvari is just meh… as always.

Now, the most revolting retcon is the one McCoy said in a recent interview: that the bloodstone(s) are redundant and they actually did nothing in the shaping of the world…. Yeah. It’s very likely she didn’t know what she was saying and made up 80% of her answers on the spot. In this post-chain – 5 posts total - I go into the details and provide sources to show just why her “answers” are Wrong.

Quarktastic.1027:

You didn’t read that bit about the exodus of the gods did you? The gods themselves once resided (physically) in the world of Tyria. Three of the gods lived in the city of Arah. The gods left Tyria in the year 0 B.E. One year after Abaddon granted magic to the humans of Tyria.

All the gods lived in Arah. That one GW1 source just listed three from the top of his mind. But in reality, as proven by Malchor’s story and how Lyssa (to her great sadness) was commanded to leave the mortals in Wren and join the others in Arah once the building was completed, they all dwelled in those halls. Personally, I think their palace was the tower Zhaitan clung onto in the end – would explain why we find so little about the Six in their own city.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

DarksunG.9537:

It’s hard, man.. I don’t like a lot of the lore changes from GW1 to GW2. The main ones are the HUUUUGEEE retcon on the gods.. they went from the gods that created tyria & everything on it to semi-powerful beings that only the humans even talk about & they aren’t even in the game any more.

Oh, they’re in the game. At least, Grenth does make an appearance. And of course “they created the world” as according to some human myth. Only, I don’t remember it saying that in my copy of the Manuscripts.

In fact I just pulled it out . . . and there’s no mention of the world creation . . .

-snip-

“A lie”? Okay, what was the lie, other than one of omission about Abaddon?

It is also a Charr myth, and yes, in fact, the Guild Wars Manuscripts did say the gods created the world. They were still in the process of creating the world when the Forgotten came to Tyria- in fact it says the gods summoned them in the first place to be custodians of the world “while the gods continued to create the world around them”. It’s the first paragraph in the “History of Tyria” section. On page 26. And again mentioned on page 28.
So yes, yes the gods were retconned from the creators of Tyria to merely some kinda-powerful beings that are basically ignored by everyone but humans.

And the lie he’s referring to, I believe, is the whole “creation” thing, since it is no longer true.

Quarktastic.1027:

I think you need to brush up on your lore before you start making criticisms.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Exodus_of_the_Gods

The gods did not create the world of Tyria. The creation of Tyria by the gods is a human myth. As for the gods no longer being on Tyria, this has been the case since before the events of GW1. The gods left Tyria a very long time ago.

And you do realize that the lore retcon was actually applied to those wiki pages after GW2 came out, right? And, in fact, they were changed with every little retcon in between Prophesies and GW Beyond. Which is what the guy is saying. When it was just Prophesies, the gods were gods who did in fact create the world – and that’s been slowly whittled away until they’re either pretenders, usurpers, or powerful beings from another plane who merely came to play god on Tyria. They even got their domains mixed up. (Grenth was the patron of water – suddenly now it’s Lyssa instead.)
Before you go criticizing someone’s analysis of the retcon, maybe you should brush up on what’s actually been retconned out.

Thalador.4218:

Actually DarkSun, (as the others have already mentioned) there weren’t any retcons with the gods in GW1 at all. The source claiming they created the world, the races, and magic was a fallible human storyteller (who got turned into risen and was then released on Lion’s Arch). It’s just a human (and charr as well, as they also have legends about Melandru creating – read: terraforming – the world) myth.

It was pretty guarenteed they didn’t create humanity either, especially after the ‘An Empire Divided’ was published. It makes a lot more sense they brought humanity to Tyria from their original homeworld. It’s a very neat concept.

I don’t think you understand what a retcon is:
When Prophesies was released, and it was all that GW was, every bit of lore presented to the player on the subject said “The gods created Tyria, summoned the Forgotten to be it’s stewards, and chose humanity as their special people”.
Then, when later things were published, they said, “Nope, that didn’t happen, it’s this way instead. That was never true, what are you talking about?”
That’s the definition of a retcon.

Man In Zero G.8312:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

DarksunG.9537:

It’s hard, man.. I don’t like a lot of the lore changes from GW1 to GW2. The main ones are the HUUUUGEEE retcon on the gods.. they went from the gods that created tyria & everything on it to semi-powerful beings that only the humans even talk about & they aren’t even in the game any more.

Oh, they’re in the game. At least, Grenth does make an appearance. And of course “they created the world” as according to some human myth. Only, I don’t remember it saying that in my copy of the Manuscripts.

In fact I just pulled it out . . . and there’s no mention of the world creation . . .

-snip-

“A lie”? Okay, what was the lie, other than one of omission about Abaddon?

It is also a Charr myth, and yes, in fact, the Guild Wars Manuscripts did say the gods created the world. They were still in the process of creating the world when the Forgotten came to Tyria- in fact it says the gods summoned them in the first place to be custodians of the world “while the gods continued to create the world around them”. It’s the first paragraph in the “History of Tyria” section. On page 26. And again mentioned on page 28.
So yes, yes the gods were retconned from the creators of Tyria to merely some kinda-powerful beings that are basically ignored by everyone but humans.

And the lie he’s referring to, I believe, is the whole “creation” thing, since it is no longer true.

You’re going to make me do it again aren’t you? I pull out my copy of the Manuscripts and . . . gee, right there at the end? It’s a human historian writing this.

Forgive me for saying, but writer bias crept in pretty quickly with this, and it is woefully incomplete if there’s no mention of WHY the Crystal Desert exists.

Man In Zero G.8312:

That’s the definition of a retcon.

It’s the definition of “unreliable narrator” in regards to the sources. Which is never the actual lore writers but characters in the world. And they’ve always maintained there isn’t 100% reliability with what historians in the world are saying.

Man In Zero G.8312:

I don’t think you understand what a retcon is:
When Prophesies was released, and it was all that GW was, every bit of lore presented to the player on the subject said “The gods created Tyria, summoned the Forgotten to be it’s stewards, and chose humanity as their special people”.
Then, when later things were published, they said, “Nope, that didn’t happen, it’s this way instead. That was never true, what are you talking about?”
That’s the definition of a retcon.

… dude, it’s a fictional religion. Who else do you think would the followers of that pantheon attribute the genesis of their world to, if not their deities?
If Charr shamans from Prophecies told you that the world was created by titans would that be a lore contradiction in your opinion? No it’s not.

After reading Scarlet’s story. I’m starting to wonder if that red vine may have something to do with the unseen earth dragon. Perhaps she doesn’t know it but maybe she’s the dragons champion? Perhaps it found a way to corrupt her?

Ed of Death.4819:

After reading Scarlet’s story. I’m starting to wonder if that red vine may have something to do with the unseen earth dragon. Perhaps she doesn’t know it but maybe she’s the dragons champion? Perhaps it found a way to corrupt her?

It has more to do with “Grasping Vines” (Sylvari racial skill) than that. It can’t be the ranger “Entangle” since she’s possibly (most possibly) an engineer.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And of course “they created the world” as according to some human myth. Only, I don’t remember it saying that in my copy of the Manuscripts.

In fact I just pulled it out . . . and there’s no mention of the world creation . . .

You didn’t read very far.. first page:
“Their task: shepard the other creatures of the land through this time of transition, while the gods continued to create the world around them.”

The whole idea that “the manuscripts are just some human myth!” is nothing more than an excuse for retcons. It assumes something that is completely unsubstantiated through the original release of GW1 (that because the history is written by a human, it must be questioned) and ignores something that we as players are told is true(that the manuscripts are a flavorful way to introduce players to the world of guild wars). Heck, the intro even says (out of character mind you):

Book I: The Lore of Guild Wars contains a brief summary of Tyrian history, along with an overview of the human kingdoms and a few of humanity’s known enemies. These
manuscripts tell the story of the origins of magic, of the Searing and the Cataclysm, and other key events that brought our world to the state in which you find it today.

It’s essentially saying (out of character) that THIS IS THE HISTORY of the game.
There is nothing in Prophecies, the game, the manual, that suggests that the manuscripts should be questioned. Especially for something that is printed outside of the game. The idea that this was meant to be a reveal, 5 years later, with zero impact on the humans (which, according to the retcon, makes no sense. it should shatter their world) transforming the function of the bloodstones, introduce a god-sized dragon threat that noone knew about (although we knew about some the races that survived & they only told us about the GD) requires more than “that was written by a human, therefore it must be wrong”.

It’s a retcon. Ready chapter 6 of the manuscripts, (written out of character) talks about the hall of heroes, The the fate of the dead. It doesn’t work that way anymore. retcon. Look at what it says again about Orr (written out of character):
Orrians looked after the buildings and structures left behind when the gods left Tyria,
caring for them in the hopes that one day, the divine beings who created magic and bestowed it upon the world would return.

the gods didn’t CREATE magic (now) .. retcon.

The entire game went one way, then all the sudden, when it was convenient to make room for something else, it went the other way.

While the back and forth is enlightening, it has little to do with the thread. Not to mention, when contrasted against a setting that is fine dropping in characters like Scarlet, it looks a little bit like debating the true origin of Santa’s elves or the Hamburgler.

Unleashed.6195:

While the back and forth is enlightening, it has little to do with the thread. Not to mention, when contrasted against a setting that is fine dropping in characters like Scarlet, it looks a little bit like debating the true origin of Santa’s elves or the Hamburgler.

That’s cute, but it actually does. It’s possible they can retcon Scarlet to not be what she is. They’ve done it with much better characters, why not with a poor one?

DarksunG.9537:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And of course “they created the world” as according to some human myth. Only, I don’t remember it saying that in my copy of the Manuscripts.

In fact I just pulled it out . . . and there’s no mention of the world creation . . .

You didn’t read very far.. first page:

Well, you know, I do have to give the nitpickers something to do

Besides, it’s far more entertaining to listen to these things when we had very little of the mythology present in the beginning we had even after Nightfall. They literally were making a lot of it up as they went . . .

Also, we can get up in arms about the nature of magic and the gods, but not about how Mad King Thorn makes absolutely no sense within the history of the game, at all?

Man In Zero G.8312:

Quarktastic.1027:

I think you need to brush up on your lore before you start making criticisms.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Exodus_of_the_Gods

The gods did not create the world of Tyria. The creation of Tyria by the gods is a human myth. As for the gods no longer being on Tyria, this has been the case since before the events of GW1. The gods left Tyria a very long time ago.

And you do realize that the lore retcon was actually applied to those wiki pages after GW2 came out, right? And, in fact, they were changed with every little retcon in between Prophesies and GW Beyond. Which is what the guy is saying. When it was just Prophesies, the gods were gods who did in fact create the world – and that’s been slowly whittled away until they’re either pretenders, usurpers, or powerful beings from another plane who merely came to play god on Tyria. They even got their domains mixed up. (Grenth was the patron of water – suddenly now it’s Lyssa instead.)
Before you go criticizing someone’s analysis of the retcon, maybe you should brush up on what’s actually been retconned out.

Grenth is the patron god of ice and death. Abaddon was the god of water and secrets. How lyssa came to embody water I have no idea.

Even as far back as prophecies does the in game lore state that the gods brought humans to Tyria. There is nothing that states the gods created Tyria, other than some (human) tales. The Lore also tells us that the dragon Glint was the first creature the gods brought to Tyria, followed by the forgotten. Humans didn’t appear on Tyria until quite some time after the forgotten. And you will find several in-game texts throughout the crystal desert and other parts of prophecies that reference the gods “bringing” (as if from another place) humans/forgotten to Tyria.

I believe there is also in-game reference to the gods themselves first arriving on Tyria some time after its creation.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

DarksunG.9537:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And of course “they created the world” as according to some human myth. Only, I don’t remember it saying that in my copy of the Manuscripts.

In fact I just pulled it out . . . and there’s no mention of the world creation . . .

You didn’t read very far.. first page:

Well, you know, I do have to give the nitpickers something to do

Besides, it’s far more entertaining to listen to these things when we had very little of the mythology present in the beginning we had even after Nightfall. They literally were making a lot of it up as they went . . .

Also, we can get up in arms about the nature of magic and the gods, but not about how Mad King Thorn makes absolutely no sense within the history of the game, at all?

Mad King Thorn makes the most sense if you think about it.

DarksunG.9537:

Unleashed.6195:

While the back and forth is enlightening, it has little to do with the thread. Not to mention, when contrasted against a setting that is fine dropping in characters like Scarlet, it looks a little bit like debating the true origin of Santa’s elves or the Hamburgler.

That’s cute, but it actually does. It’s possible they can retcon Scarlet to not be what she is. They’ve done it with much better characters, why not with a poor one?

They don’t consider her a poor character. They don’t want the same thing from their lore and world that you or I do. Their intent is not to produce complex, believable characters that leave you wondering whether you would support or work against them if given the choice. They want villains that fit in a world with SAB and The Dreamer and stuffed animal backpacks.

DarksunG.9537:

It’s a retcon. Ready chapter 6 of the manuscripts, (written out of character) talks about the hall of heroes, The the fate of the dead. It doesn’t work that way anymore. retcon. Look at what it says again about Orr (written out of character):
Orrians looked after the buildings and structures left behind when the gods left Tyria,
caring for them in the hopes that one day, the divine beings who created magic and bestowed it upon the world would return.

the gods didn’t CREATE magic (now) .. retcon.

The entire game went one way, then all the sudden, when it was convenient to make room for something else, it went the other way.

Nothing in GW1 or GW2 says the gods didn’t create magic. Perhaps they did. But it was Abaddon who bestowed the gift of magic on the humans. Magic existed before humans came to Tyria. (it is assumed that Glint, and the forgotten were both privy to the magical arts) And of course, the elder dragons.

It’s canon. deal with it.

Eldrake.1543:

On the topic of Elder Dragons and their (lack of) personalities, I am kind of hopeful that one of the Elder Dragons surprises us all by talking directly to our characters. If executed well, it could be scary and awesome.

That is a really cool idea. Jormag may have mental abilities that allow him to directly speak to people through their minds. Imagine walking around in the far north, and suddenly Jormag randomly speaks to someone in the explorable. That would be freaky.

And maybe Jormag can even conjure up hallucinations, that make players resemble enemies. And makes a broken bridge seem fixed. The stuff you could do with that…

nelopp.6140:

I was shocked a bit when the camera zoomed to her in closing ceremony.Is this intented to create such non stereotype compared to other sylvari npc?
It feels so unnatural and weird(or disgusting by my pov) for her voice, hair, armor and face are mismatched. She doesn’t feel like a sylvari.

Maybe she’s a watchwork too! Created by a mad asuran who is jealous of Scarlet’s brilliance. He killed her and then used her form to destroy her reputation.

Man In Zero G.8312:

Some people just want to watch the world burn… Some just want to make Farren soup.

Calling this as our next LS update now. Would be totally sensible, too, given Scarlet’s capabilities.

Did I get that right? 8D

The only thing I liked about Scarlet were the plants resembling Macaw flowers growing out of her head. http://wildlifeofhawaii.com/flowers/1343/heliconia-bihai-macaw-flower/

For a second after I saw them, my imagination went wild and I thought that she had cut them off Van Gogh style, in rebellion against the Pale Tree because when we first see her she’s wearing a hooded cloak that appears flat on her head. I was like: Dang that’s hardcore!

Then I realized it was just armor clipping.

Quarktastic.1027:

Nothing in GW1 or GW2 says the gods didn’t create magic. Perhaps they did.

The story of magic is the story of Tyria. When the Giganticus Lupicus walked the world, magic was said to be “wild”, and was practised by the elder races of the world with impunity. When the Elder Dragons awoke, they began to consume everything around them, feeding on the magic of the world. The Seers gathered up all the magic in the world that had yet to be corrupted and sealed it within the Bloodstone, and the surviving races were concealed by Glint, who had shaken off the yoke of Kralkatorrik – all except the mursaat, who, having discovered a way to slip beneath the skin of the world, betrayed the other races, keeping their magic. The Elder Dragons eventually ended their rampage for reasons unknown and returned to slumber, and the races of Tyria re-emerged……
Many years later, the Six Human Gods arrived at the Artesian Waters from across the Mists.

They weren’t even on the planet until after magic was being used willynilly. How many times do I have to point out the retcons? They do it a ton.

Yeah I mean, I find her very stereotypical but still fun.

I discussed this at length with someone on reddit. I think she is a good departure from the typical morally gray villain in fantasy writing and brooding dark angry guy who comes from humble beginnings. This is fun and different, imo.

People who dislike Scarlet probably wish their own asura or other characters could graduate from all 3 colleges and learn special secret knowledge from esoteric sources in game but sadly we play an MMO where that’s not possible. I personally don’t mind that. Scarlet’s exceptional and worked hard to follow her personal goal to understand the Tyrian universe. That’s how I see it.

RyuDragnier.9476:

I’m sorry, but I loved Scarlet’s dialogue in her Playhouse. It was witty, I laughed a few times, and she seems like a truly insane character I wouldn’t mind seeing often. She’s the Joker, and we’re Batman.

That is an insult to the Joker!

PS Mad King for Prez!

DarksunG.9537:

Quarktastic.1027:

Nothing in GW1 or GW2 says the gods didn’t create magic. Perhaps they did.

The story of magic is the story of Tyria. When the Giganticus Lupicus walked the world, magic was said to be “wild”, and was practised by the elder races of the world with impunity. When the Elder Dragons awoke, they began to consume everything around them, feeding on the magic of the world. The Seers gathered up all the magic in the world that had yet to be corrupted and sealed it within the Bloodstone, and the surviving races were concealed by Glint, who had shaken off the yoke of Kralkatorrik – all except the mursaat, who, having discovered a way to slip beneath the skin of the world, betrayed the other races, keeping their magic. The Elder Dragons eventually ended their rampage for reasons unknown and returned to slumber, and the races of Tyria re-emerged……
Many years later, the Six Human Gods arrived at the Artesian Waters from across the Mists.

They weren’t even on the planet until after magic was being used willynilly. How many times do I have to point out the retcons? They do it a ton.

Wait, what? Bloodstones got retconned as well? And how exactly did the Seers manage to seal the magic within bloodstones before arrival of humans to tyria, if bloodstones were made from king Doric’s blood (thus their name)? Or is it no longer true as well?

So is there any official word on whether Scarlet is the interesting villain who will become our personal nemesis? She does seem rather sassy and I’d say she definitely qualifies as a him/her/it.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/living-story-evolution

I think what intensely bothers me about Scarlet is that her story touches on some really interesting ideas. The whole Dream/Nightmare war – this bizarre dichotomy that the sylvari have to live out, the whole fixation for them on purpose (and, not quite dealt with in this plot arc, but fitting in with it, the problem that fighting the Nightmare actually spreads it) – and the Eternal Alchemy (namely, its potential power and reach beyond what the asura have been focusing on – something that was briefly explored in Eye of the North) have a lot of potential. I do think they need to be picked at some.

The problem is, that examination of them is coming from – as has been brought up repeatedly – essentially (a really annoying version of) Harley Quinn. It’s stuff that really ought to be looked at and questioned, but because it’s coming from a cackling, self-absorbed lunatic, everybody kinda goes “man, she crazy” and that’s the end of it.

So really I just feel let down that they go and take these cool concepts and really (lorewise) worthwhile questions and choose, instead of exploring them, to make them be simple background elements in a failed attempt to flesh out a horribly one-dimensional villain.

Erukk.1408:

I agree that the community wants to get back to the dragons, but I think that is one of the reasons Anet is taking awhile to get back to them. Many players didn’t like how Zhaitan was done, since they thought he lacked any depth or personality. They might be extending the LS a bit, so the writing team has some extra time to flesh out the other Elder Dragons and their minions.

Because as of right now, other than Jormag and the Sons, almost all the other Elder Dragons and their minions are totally blank slates personality-wise. Or, they are totally unknown in the case of Bubbles and Mordremoth.

I think this is wishful thinking. I don’t think they are using LS as a way to bide time to flesh out the dragons. Considering that pretty much every important character in the game lacks depth or personality, a more simple explanation would be that Anet writers simply don’t know how to write characters that have depth and personality.

To be fair, it’s awfully hard to generate character depth in like, 30 lines of text or less.

Caradryan.1795:

To be fair, it’s awfully hard to generate character depth in like, 30 lines of text or less.

Well, you can cheat and use obvious symbolisms meant to provoke sudden reactions in lieu of actually making them deep. Such as “kick the puppy” type of actions to establish that, yes, this character is Not Nice At All.

It’s fake depth but if you’re only needing the character to initially appear and plan to use them later to layer on depth it can work. Can work, if you’re able to. I mean, lots of characters do start out as shallow and simple with some hints there’s more to them than you can see. (If you’ve seen Firefly, you kind of know what I mean. Most of that crew has that going on.)

This is almost a normal approach in a serialized or episodic story. You don’t have space and time to show off a very complex and deep character in a thirty-minute episode, or an hour-long one. You have to work at it over time and let people see it.

None of this is talking about Scarlet, per se, but it’s just something I’m talking about based on my audio notes from my writing workshops. I really should move those to digital audio, the tapes are wearing out.

I’m not -that- surprised about there being an Asura-level (or even past that?) genius amongst the Sylvari. I’ve long theorized that their intense linking up and the Dream (which is still active, be it to a lesser extent, after their birth) pretty much forms a poor man’s hive mind. Simply put, the more any individual Sylvari learns, the smarter they should become as a race, since all those advanced concepts are stored.

As soon as you get one Sylvari who masters Asura-level engineering, other Sylvari will start to become born with an inherent knowledge of just that kind of thing. They’ll find it easier to get to the same level as their “ancestor”, and will thus have an easier time surpassing said Sylvari as well. Or at least surpassing the level that Sylvari had at the moment of their birth, because hey, who knows what insights that first Sylvari has gained by now?

Hive minds are a personal favourite of mine, and while in some fictions they have disadvantages (loss of individuality and versatility) the Sylvari version seems to retain the best of both worlds, with few weaknesses. (Except, maybe, the burdening of the mind that those who choose to go Silent suffer from)

Conclusion: It’s not Scarlet who’s a Sue, it’s just the inevitable direction of the entire race.

ThiBash.5634:

I’d delete my Sylvari if I hadn’t already. Sylavri’s had so much potential yet ended up being the worst written of all Tyria’s races.

Even a random, stereotypical Charr would have been better as a personal nemesis…

She may be a personal nemesis, but she’s not mine. Anyone want to take her on? Anyone? Nobody?

I’m deleting my sylvari tonight, just needed to come up with a new mesmer concept to replace it. But let me tell you about her…

She had been born with the Wyld Hunt to “Kill all dragons”. Not “all Elder Dragons”, but “all dragons”. Given that Glint proved that not all dragons are the same, she rejected her wild hunt on moral grounds. Convinced that her contact with the dream had been corrupted, she even rejected the name she received in the dream.

While trying to figure out her path, she spent time in the lower parts of the Grove. Down there, she saw the insects and plants start to glitter with the onset of twilight, and so named herself “Twilight Glitter”. (Yes, she was purple and used magic. A small MLP reference for fun doesn’t hurt.)

Her surest proof that her dream had been corrupted was that she did not feel pain or pleasure, only “sensation”. To her, eating a meal of foods she’d never had before was just as interesting and enjoyable as slowly driving a nail through her foot to see what it felt like. This made her pretty creepy, but she knew she was “off”.

As you can see, she has a lot in common with Scarlet. I made Twilight Glitter before Scarlet showed up, though I didn’t play her often. Now that Scarlet’s here, I have to delete her and make a new mesmer (I’m going charr for this one). I’ll gladly and proudly play a creepy masochist that’s a walking MLP joke, but I WILL NOT be mistaken for someone playing a knock-off of a character as awful as Scarlet. That’s below even my dignity.

Unahim.1036:

Conclusion: It’s not Scarlet who’s a Sue, it’s just the inevitable direction of the entire race.

That’s even worse…

Since so many people have elucidated Scarlet’s sueness in so many words, just for the conclusion I have to add that ArenaNet should get rid of it’s “writers” and employ WoodenPotatoes or someone similar who actually gets the lore. Thank you.

(I also love the fact that there is a Lord Faren Fan Club ^^)

BobbyStein.2315:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Mm, no, the problem might be that the LS writers are trying to have it be “fun and entertaining” as opposed to “stirring and exquisite writing”. Which is good, because people shooting for “stirring and exquisite writing” sometimes risk missing the mark and moving right on into “boring and pretentious” or too far into “just plain boring”. Like shooting for Inception and instead getting Minority Report.

This is true.

I have to ask, what makes you think it cannot be both? Why can’t it be a fun experience and still be stirring and exquisite writing?
- There are games where the motivation for players to keep on going is the story itself. I believe that you are capable of writing such story arcs for us.
- Difference in kind is not a bad thing either.

If it were me doing the Living Story arcs, I would’ve spent one of these updates sending players out to investigate some background story on Scarlet before setting her lose on the players.
- We all knew her name here on the forums, and the short story revealed that she had been out and about, so potentially we could have heard about her before.

- If I was to give you any advice for future Living Story updates, I’d say that you shouldn’t just “pop” the villains in there but have players do some investigation (or for the Aetherblades, who I had never met on my travels through Tyria, you should add some of them in before going all in. It makes more sense that way).
- With Scarlet, we could’ve spent an update going to Rata Sum where we would have to ask into what she did there, to the Black Citadel and find out more there and finally to the Pale Tree, who then could fill us in on the rest. And when we had found out what she was up to, we could come back to Divinity’s Reach, only to find out that we were too late to thwart her attack, but luckily the queen were already on to her.
- Then we would be where we are today.

The story should be in the game and not on the web page.