Guild Wars 2

/signed

Can we please get an answer from Anet… i want to be a condition mesmer but right now it doesn’t make sense to do so.

There needs to be a limit because each stack is calculated individually.
If you apply a 10 second bleed for 100 damage, and 5 seconds later you apply another 10 second bleed for 100 damage as well, this is how damage is dealt per second:
10-10-10-10-10-10-10-10-10-10
….-….-….-….-….-10-10-10-10-10-10-10-10-10-10
So in the first 5 seconds you deal 10 damage per second.
In the seconds 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10, you deal 10+10 damage per second, and then the first Bleed falls off.
In the seconds 11, 12, 13, 14 and 15, you dela 10 damage per second, and then the second bleed falls off.

Essentially, conditions/boons that stack intensity, are in fact different conditions/boons sharing a single Icon.

I made a suggestion that instead of removing the limit, changes how the stacks are handled:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Sollution-Condition-Stacking/first#post541536

My take on this is that not just one single build works in every situation. Condition build have always been slower damage in my opinion so when you have large group events then you will usually not tag anything to get credit. This is of course if you completely rely on conditions as your primary source of damage.

I can see problems if the cap was raised since then things would become even more incredibly easy to kill. If the cap is raised then damage done needs to be lowered to keep things balanced.

so what if stuff becomes easier to kill cos they made it so the poor saps whio play condition builds are doing some actual damage. So when I roll up with my warrior and start chopping at the nasty dragons leg maybe i should get a warning saying sorry u dont do damage cos that other warrior strated bashing it 1st.

This will lead to bleed damage nerf and your “Conditionmancer” will be useless in standard PvE.
Simply removing limit is not an option, obviously, since bleed is already do a very impressive amount of damage.

I doubt that, the health on bosses is huge in the first place……a 25 stack cap per player, i doubt you would see a huge increase like you think.

5 players using conditions builds………3 make the cap of 25…….the other 2 are doing barely any damage now………now imagine with melee characters…..theres 5, 3 are swinging and hitting/ and now the other 2 are swinging…….but arent hitting because the cap on swings has been reached……,it is easier for melee to argue against this proposal, because they dont have to deal with it.

People, let’s make something clear – the cap is NOT because of damage.
The Cap is because of excessive calculations.

Currently CD builds ruin each others’ damage.
Direct damage builds do as much damage as CD, but have no Cap.

The thing is, with a decent sized group, it takes literally less than 10 seconds to get to the 25 bleed cap.

Right now, those 25 bleeds are going to be causing at least 1,000 damage every second. So, over a 10 minute boss fight, that’s upwards of 500,000 damage.

If you allowed the bleed to stack indefinitely, you would probably see them being up to like 200+ ticks in a minute. And guess what? With 200 ticks, it’ll take a minute to get that 500,000 damage that previously required a full 10 minutes. So that’s probably going to cut the boss time down by more than half.

And guess what’s gonna happen when all big bosses suddenly take less than half to kill? You guessed it, a big nerf on bleeds. And then you’ll be complaining that the bleeds don’t deal enough damage and you’ll change your build.

End result? Nothing changed.

Here’s an idea: once 25 bleeds are stacked they create 1 “greater bleed” stack. The greater bleed damage and duration would need to be balanced but this would allow for multiple condition builds to pound on a target while maintaining the balance of not having 100 bleeds stacked on a boss.

Seeee we can have our cake and eat it too.

Personally I would like to see a maximum number of stacks… per person. Maybe it’s lower than 25, but each person applying them should have THEIR OWN max.

So Olba you think its quite fair that their damage is totally ruined in a group situation? Oh well I guess its a good job its a single player game and we dont have to work as a team or take other people into account I suppose.

EDIT: forgot to add. Nothing preventing them from increasing bosses health if they are dying to quickly.

Lutharr.1035:

So Olba you think its quite fair that their damage is totally ruined in a group situation? Oh well I guess its a good job its a single player game and we dont have to work as a team or take other people into account I suppose.

Do I think it’s fair? Not really.

But that’s universally true for all conditions. Most other conditions stack duration. That’s even more useless.

The thing is, conditions were never meant to be big DPS. Conditions have an advantage in being able to deal damage after you used your skills. So they deal damage while you’re kiting or while you’re dodging and praying for your healing skill to come out of cooldown.

Originally I was going to be a dual sword Warrior. However, once I noticed that structures don’t take bleed damage and that events with multiple people tend to get up to 20+ stacks of bleed just about instantly, I changed to axe/shield. I do still carry around a rifle and a longbow for those times that I might want to have the extra mobility.

EDIT: forgot to add. Nothing preventing them from increasing bosses health if they are dying to quickly.

They’re not going to do that, considering that there’s already complaints about how bosses aren’t difficult, they just take too long.

Olba, your point is irrelevant.
- Each individual direct damage dealer can do as much or more damage than each individual condition damage dealer.
- The direct damage is dealt upfront, while the condition damage takes time.
- The direct damage is unpreventable after it hits you, while the condition damage can be cut halfway with condition removal.
- The direct damage has no cap, the condition damage has.

When are you people going to stop defending the ridiculous situation condition damage dealers are in right now?

Increasing the Cap is not the sollution, since 1 player can reach 25 stacks of bleeding on his own.
The sollution is changing the way stacks are handled.
I made a suggestion that actually FIXES this, permanently:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Sollution-Condition-Stacking/first#post541536

I know how they are designed. But they are set up to do NO DAMAGE if someone already put them up. Its not a case of em being less powerful its a case of them being useless.

I feel sorry for the condition builds since its a blatant oversight.

The dragon world bosses could do with being killed quicker to prevent people falling asleep at their computers anyways.

So basically the consensus here seems to be “let’s remove the cap so that bleed becomes so grossly overpowered that the dev team will be FORCED to nerf it to keep world bosses from bleeding to death in less than a minute, and then we’ll complain about that nerf when it happens”.

Brilliant. >_<

I don’t think the cap is a great situation, but at least I’m smart enough to acknowledge that the proposal is an even worse model. Even if we just presume that it’s set up to a new cap of 25 bleeds per character (instead of total), that’s 25 stacks of at least 42.5 damage per second, assuming the individuals in question are Lvl 80, and that doesn’t even consider condition damage’s boost to those numbers. So with just five players stacking 25 bleeds, that world boss who was formerly bleeding out at the rate of 1062.5 HP per second is now bleeding out at 5 times that rate, 5312.5 HP per second. And that on top of the direct-damage it’s receiving from other sources. Bosses WILL die a hell of a lot faster in that situation, and the devs obviously aren’t going to let things stay that way. Cue the nerf bat being swung full force at condition damage, bleed in particular, and then you’ll complain how “useless” it’s become despite the fact that it was YOUR begging for the cap removal that necessitated this situation.

I don’t LIKE the cap, mind, I run a condition necro myself. But to pretend that the cap isn’t there for a good reason is just foolishness.

critickitten, can you show the math that supports your overpowered theory?
No, you can’t.
I’ll tell you why with 2 important facts:

1. Each stack of a condition/boon has an individual duration AND effect (damage, healing, etc)
   This means if you apply a 100 damage over 10 second bleed, and 5 seconds later I apply a 200 damage over 10 second bleed, your bleed will deal 50 damage over 5 seconds, then our combined bleeds will deal 150 damage over 5 seconds, then your Bleed falls off and my Bleed will deal the remaining 100 damage over 5 seconds.
   In case it wasn’t clear enough, this means you do NOT stack condition damage infinitely, because the old stacks start falling off as their durations end.
2. Condition damage isn’t stronger than direct damage, is prevented in the same way as direct damage and unlike direct damage can be cut halfway by condition removal.

I hope enough of you people defending the ridiculous condition damage system read these 2 important points and stop flooding these forums with your grossly uninformed opinions.

The only legitimate purpose the boon/condition intensity cap has is server performance.

A sollution that has none of the aforementioned problems can be found here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Sollution-Condition-Stacking/first#post541536

Nurvus.2891:

critickitten, can you show the math that supports your overpowered theory?
No, you can’t.

Um, I just did prove it in my last post, which you obviously didn’t read very well.

It would only take five people running at 25 stacks of bleed to quintuple the amount of bleed damage a world boss is sustaining at a given time, which in turn means it will die at a SIGNIFICANTLY faster rate.

Supposing we have a world boss taking 10k damage per second from direct sources and only the 1062 from bleed that I previously mentioned, if you remove the hard cap and instead set things up so that each player can stack bleed up to 25 times, the boss just went from taking ~11062 DpS to about 15312 DpS. In case you’re not mathematically inclined, that means he’s taking damage at approximately 138% of the previous rate, meaning his health will be dropping MUCH faster per second than it was before. And that’s with only five players stacking 25 stacks of bleeding at once. What if it’s ten? Or twenty? You make it sound like there are “so many” players getting ripped off by this cap, but fail to realize that if indeed there are “so many” people being ripped off by this cap, its removal would exponentially increase the amount of damage a world boss is sustaining per second. That will undoubtably lead to a nerf to condition damage, because I rather doubt the ANet staff will be all that keen on seeing their giant world bosses go down that quickly.

You keep insisting it won’t be overpowered, but you have to know that the devs won’t just allow players to stack hundreds of bleeds onto a boss at once unless they decrease the power of those bleeds. They put the cap into the game to keep players from stacking bleeds that high, it’s simple logic that if they remove the cap, they’re probably going to reduce the damage at the same time. Because why would they have the cap at all if not to keep a hard limit on the power of conditions? A limit which is quickly exceeded by your idea to remove the cap?

As for your “arguments”, both of them are dismissed merely by reality:

1) It’s true that bleed stacks “fall off” after a given period of time, but that doesn’t mean they do LESS damage once a stack falls off because bleed damage is not calculated based on the number of stacks currently active. Each stack is calculated individually. Thus each stack will still inflict the full amount of damage before it falls off.

2) You assert that condition removal fixes the problem, but exactly how often do you see world bosses using condition removal in great enough quantities to get rid of the conditions inflicted on them? Because I’ll tell you how many times I’ve seen it happen: ZERO. Many world bosses don’t appear to have condition removal at all. So it’s safe to say that a condition, once inflicted, will stay for the entire duration. And if condition removal were added, you’d be among the first to complain that you’re being “nerfed” again.

I do so love that my opinion is “uninformed” simply because it disagrees with yours, though. Or maybe I have a pretty decent idea what I’m talking about, and you’re the one not comprehending. The only way you’ll convince them to remove the cap is to somehow convince them that there’s nothing overpowered about a world boss having hundreds of bleed stacks on it. And I think we both know that you’re not up to that task, since your core arguments revolve around things which don’t actually occur in the game.

critickitten.1498:

Nurvus.2891:

critickitten, can you show the math that supports your overpowered theory?
No, you can’t.

Um, I just did prove it in my last post, which you obviously didn’t read very well.

It would only take five people running at 25 stacks of bleed to quintuple the amount of bleed damage a world boss is sustaining at a given time, which in turn means it will die at a SIGNIFICANTLY faster rate.

Supposing we have a world boss taking 10k damage per second from direct sources and only the 1062 from bleed that I previously mentioned, if you remove the hard cap and instead set things up so that each player can stack bleed up to 25 times, the boss just went from taking ~11062 DpS to about 15312 DpS. In case you’re not mathematically inclined, that means he’s taking damage at approximately 138% of the previous rate, meaning his health will be dropping MUCH faster per second than it was before. And that’s with only five players stacking 25 stacks of bleeding at once. What if it’s ten? Or twenty? You make it sound like there are “so many” players getting ripped off by this cap, but fail to realize that if indeed there are “so many” people being ripped off by this cap, its removal would exponentially increase the amount of damage a world boss is sustaining per second. That will undoubtably lead to a nerf to condition damage, because I rather doubt the ANet staff will be all that keen on seeing their giant world bosses go down that quickly.

You keep insisting it won’t be overpowered, but you have to know that the devs won’t just allow players to stack hundreds of bleeds onto a boss at once unless they decrease the power of those bleeds. They put the cap into the game to keep players from stacking bleeds that high, it’s simple logic that if they remove the cap, they’re probably going to reduce the damage at the same time. Because why would they have the cap at all if not to keep a hard limit on the power of conditions? A limit which is quickly exceeded by your idea to remove the cap?

As for your “arguments”, both of them are dismissed merely by reality:

1) It’s true that bleed stacks “fall off” after a given period of time, but that doesn’t mean they do LESS damage once a stack falls off because bleed damage is not calculated based on the number of stacks currently active. Each stack is calculated individually. Thus each stack will still inflict the full amount of damage before it falls off.

2) You assert that condition removal fixes the problem, but exactly how often do you see world bosses using condition removal in great enough quantities to get rid of the conditions inflicted on them? Because I’ll tell you how many times I’ve seen it happen: ZERO. Many world bosses don’t appear to have condition removal at all. So it’s safe to say that a condition, once inflicted, will stay for the entire duration. And if condition removal were added, you’d be among the first to complain that you’re being “nerfed” again.

I do so love that my opinion is “uninformed” simply because it disagrees with yours, though. Or maybe I have a pretty decent idea what I’m talking about, and you’re the one not comprehending. The only way you’ll convince them to remove the cap is to somehow convince them that there’s nothing overpowered about a world boss having hundreds of bleed stacks on it. And I think we both know that you’re not up to that task, since your core arguments revolve around things which don’t actually occur in the game.

Your logic is just faulted… we are not asking to buff conditions in anyway but we are asking to be able to do the same damage on a boss as our equivalent dd speccs. You basically say that all specc where the main dps is from conditions is just supposed to stand around and do pity damage compared to those who do dd.

Lets say I invite 9 friends to join me on a boss. At the moment I got NO incentive to bring people who mainly do condition damage (maybe 1 or 2) but instead I should just bring 9 people who do DD since there is no cap on the damage they do.

Why should people who do condition damage be punished and not dd? If we go with your logic we should cap the number of swings on a boss as well… because else we risk downing the boss too fast.

Logic failure… sorry mate