Increasing trading post tax.
He propose increasing the fee to trades by 1%? It doesn’t really specify that in the OP. If that’s the case, it makes no sense. Why would you want to increase the fees you would have to pay? In fact, it would be nice if the fees were decreased so players can make more currency for the junk we sell.
As a means to punish TP Barons. The logic was flawed.
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
He propose increasing the fee to trades by 1%? It doesn’t really specify that in the OP. If that’s the case, it makes no sense. Why would you want to increase the fees you would have to pay? In fact, it would be nice if the fees were decreased so players can make more currency for the junk we sell.
As a means to punish TP Barons. The logic was flawed.
Punish for what? TP is open to every player. I’m very happy that anytime I get some drop in the field that I don’t want in my inventory, I can immediately throw it on the TP, and get real money for it rather than having to go to vendors every time I full up just to sell it for chump.
or spending their time in this thread asking JS and others who may be privy to it for specific metrics and outlining how it will help further their case.
I’m still staying out of this because I realized awhile back that none of you are actually interested in discussion, but I’ve been still following things and just wanted to point something out.
People did, in the beginning, ask for specific metrics from JS. They asked for a graph of the current distribution of wealth. Specifically Nike asked for it, and I seconded the motion, and a few others as well. JS never responded, and the rest of you said “No, denied”
This all could have been put to rest long ago with that wealth distribution chart. We could have known:
1) Is there a disparity of wealth
2) If so, what is the severity
3) How does that severity line up (who is it making the most and least in terms of activities)
4) Where is the median (?) and as such, the “average player”
5) How much is that “average” player making in a day
6) How does that amount compare to current prices, the rate of inflation, and the idea that the goal post is constantly moving for a segment of the playerbase, creating a sense of futility and leading to a lack of fun
The metric was asked for, stop acting like it wasn’t. You cannot go: “Prove X, and if you can’t, detail the metrics you need in order to better do so” after that metric has been earlier asked for and you responded “No, you aren’t allowed that information”
The moment you respond “no” but continue to demand proof while also then saying “what metrics do you need” after having said no to said metrics is the moment that you are willfully and actively impeding any progress that could be made to reaching actual discussion.
If you actually care about discussion, then a wealth distribution chart is needed. If you don’t care about discussion, then by all means, keep demanding proof while also telling everyone to detail the metrics they need, and then denying them said metrics.
I am now going to go back to lurking. Good day.
or spending their time in this thread asking JS and others who may be privy to it for specific metrics and outlining how it will help further their case.
I’m still staying out of this because I realized awhile back that none of you are actually interested in discussion, but I’ve been still following things and just wanted to point something out.
People did, in the beginning, ask for specific metrics from JS. They asked for a graph of the current distribution of wealth. Specifically Nike asked for it, and I seconded the motion, and a few others as well. JS never responded, and the rest of you said “No, denied”
This all could have been put to rest long ago with that wealth distribution chart. We could have known:
1) Is there a disparity of wealth
2) If so, what is the severity
3) How does that severity line up (who is it making the most and least in terms of activities)
4) Where is the median (?) and as such, the “average player”
5) How much is that “average” player making in a day
6) How does that amount compare to current prices, the rate of inflation, and the idea that the goal post is constantly moving for a segment of the playerbase, creating a sense of futility and leading to a lack of funThe metric was asked for, stop acting like it wasn’t. You cannot go: “Prove X, and if you can’t, detail the metrics you need in order to better do so” after that metric has been earlier asked for and you responded “No, you aren’t allowed that information”
The moment you respond “no” but continue to demand proof while also then saying “what metrics do you need” after having said no to said metrics is the moment that you are willfully and actively impeding any progress that could be made to reaching actual discussion.
If you actually care about discussion, then a wealth distribution chart is needed. If you don’t care about discussion, then by all means, keep demanding proof while also telling everyone to detail the metrics they need, and then denying them said metrics.
I am now going to go back to lurking. Good day.
Who is the richest player in GW2 in terms of in game currency?
He propose increasing the fee to trades by 1%? It doesn’t really specify that in the OP. If that’s the case, it makes no sense. Why would you want to increase the fees you would have to pay? In fact, it would be nice if the fees were decreased so players can make more currency for the junk we sell.
It was basically proposed in order to limit profits on the tp for TP traders, who make lots of profit.
However, after 1000 posts, we havent found a way yet to implement a tax that would only apply to rich people and not average players like you that dont know too much about how the trading post and economy works and mainly use it to sell their loot and buy the stuff they need.
Again, this is not meant in an offensive way towards you, if I assumed something false about you, i apologize.
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
He propose increasing the fee to trades by 1%? It doesn’t really specify that in the OP. If that’s the case, it makes no sense. Why would you want to increase the fees you would have to pay? In fact, it would be nice if the fees were decreased so players can make more currency for the junk we sell.
As a means to punish TP Barons. The logic was flawed.
Punish for what? TP is open to every player. I’m very happy that anytime I get some drop in the field that I don’t want in my inventory, I can immediately throw it on the TP, and get real money for it rather than having to go to vendors every time I full up just to sell it for chump.
By TP Barons/flippers/players the OP was looking at it as a means to slow their so called enormous income over those who only bonk things in the head. While it would affect everyone, those who earn a lot of money on the TP would lose the most in terms of amount.
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
or spending their time in this thread asking JS and others who may be privy to it for specific metrics and outlining how it will help further their case.
I’m still staying out of this because I realized awhile back that none of you are actually interested in discussion, but I’ve been still following things and just wanted to point something out.
People did, in the beginning, ask for specific metrics from JS. They asked for a graph of the current distribution of wealth. Specifically Nike asked for it, and I seconded the motion, and a few others as well. JS never responded, and the rest of you said “No, denied”
This all could have been put to rest long ago with that wealth distribution chart. We could have known:
1) Is there a disparity of wealth
2) If so, what is the severity
3) How does that severity line up (who is it making the most and least in terms of activities)
4) Where is the median (?) and as such, the “average player”
5) How much is that “average” player making in a day
6) How does that amount compare to current prices, the rate of inflation, and the idea that the goal post is constantly moving for a segment of the playerbase, creating a sense of futility and leading to a lack of funThe metric was asked for, stop acting like it wasn’t. You cannot go: “Prove X, and if you can’t, detail the metrics you need in order to better do so” after that metric has been earlier asked for and you responded “No, you aren’t allowed that information”
The moment you respond “no” but continue to demand proof while also then saying “what metrics do you need” after having said no to said metrics is the moment that you are willfully and actively impeding any progress that could be made to reaching actual discussion.
If you actually care about discussion, then a wealth distribution chart is needed. If you don’t care about discussion, then by all means, keep demanding proof while also telling everyone to detail the metrics they need, and then denying them said metrics.
I am now going to go back to lurking. Good day.
Who is the richest player in GW2 in terms of in game currency?
Evon.
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
I’m still staying out of this because I realized awhile back that none of you are actually interested in discussion, but I’ve been still following things and just wanted to point something out.
People did, in the beginning, ask for specific metrics from JS. They asked for a graph of the current distribution of wealth. Specifically Nike asked for it, and I seconded the motion, and a few others as well. JS never responded, and the rest of you said “No, denied”
This all could have been put to rest long ago with that wealth distribution chart. We could have known:
1) Is there a disparity of wealth
2) If so, what is the severity
3) How does that severity line up (who is it making the most and least in terms of activities)
4) Where is the median (?) and as such, the “average player”
5) How much is that “average” player making in a day
6) How does that amount compare to current prices, the rate of inflation, and the idea that the goal post is constantly moving for a segment of the playerbase, creating a sense of futility and leading to a lack of funThe metric was asked for, stop acting like it wasn’t. You cannot go: “Prove X, and if you can’t, detail the metrics you need in order to better do so” after that metric has been earlier asked for and you responded “No, you aren’t allowed that information”
The moment you respond “no” but continue to demand proof while also then saying “what metrics do you need” after having said no to said metrics is the moment that you are willfully and actively impeding any progress that could be made to reaching actual discussion.
If you actually care about discussion, then a wealth distribution chart is needed. If you don’t care about discussion, then by all means, keep demanding proof while also telling everyone to detail the metrics they need, and then denying them said metrics.
I am now going to go back to lurking. Good day.
John Smith already said that before he would consider providing metrics like that, a well-reasoned argument as to why that data would be relevant was required.
He isn’t going to provide data about wealth disparities unless someone presents a reasoned argument that wealth disparities are bad.
Server: Devona’s Rest
or spending their time in this thread asking JS and others who may be privy to it for specific metrics and outlining how it will help further their case.
I’m still staying out of this because I realized awhile back that none of you are actually interested in discussion, but I’ve been still following things and just wanted to point something out.
People did, in the beginning, ask for specific metrics from JS. They asked for a graph of the current distribution of wealth. Specifically Nike asked for it, and I seconded the motion, and a few others as well. JS never responded, and the rest of you said “No, denied”.
The data does not belong to JS, and he does not have the authority to release Anet’s data to the public. Nor is there any reason to do so, if you don’t trust JS when he says there is no evidence that this is a problem, then nothing he says is going to convince you. JS also asked for some idea of what you would do with the data, offering specific procedures that can be outlined without actually having the numbers, so that he can do the calculations for you and respond with the results.
I think you began to do this, but dropped it in the middle and never went back to it. Everyone else just ignored or avoided responding because they don’t actually have any idea of what to do with the data if they had it, their responses are all based on feeling bad because they aren’t rich.
This all could have been put to rest long ago with that wealth distribution chart. We could have known:
1) Is there a disparity of wealth
2) If so, what is the severity
3) How does that severity line up (who is it making the most and least in terms of activities)
4) Where is the median (?) and as such, the “average player”
5) How much is that “average” player making in a day
6) How does that amount compare to current prices, the rate of inflation, and the idea that the goal post is constantly moving for a segment of the playerbase, creating a sense of futility and leading to a lack of fun
I will refer you to this post:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Increasing-trading-post-tax/page/13#post3884397
1. Yes.
2. What does it matter? Player A started 1.5 years ago and has amassed 150k gold. Player B started today and has 5 copper. How does player A impact player B?
3. Dungeon runners make more money than anyone. How does it matter?
4. Median is 200 gold. What does this prove? Some players are hoarders, some are spenders, some are farmers, some are dungeon runners, some are pvpers, some are wvwers, some are all of the above. What does a median amount of gold show?
5. Gold per day: 5 gold. What is the point of this figure?
6. How do you compare amount of gold made through farming to current market prices? Current market prices of what?
If you are curious about inflation, a player calculated a proposed inflation rate. I can try to find the post for you.
What goal post? Of a legendary? The legendary is made up of far more parts than a precursor.
“Sense of futility” and “lack of fun” are subjective. It really is based on your perspective and not any basis for using the data in a meaningful way.
Edit: Note – all the numbers are made up to show that having real ones would be meaningless.
(edited by brittitude.1983)
He isn’t going to provide data about wealth disparities unless someone presents a reasoned argument that wealth disparities are bad.
Wealth disparities are bad because they do in some fashion effect the ceiling of a price, when factored in with supply and demand. This tends to combine with inflation, which creates a moving ceiling. Some can keep up with that ceiling, others cannot. For those that cannot, they are essentially stuck in place, depending on their goal. This generally leads to burnout, which leads to no longer logging in, much less spending money on the gem store.
Luxury items add to the fun of a game. They are as necessary in some capacity as all other parts of the game are. They are part of core gameplay, because they are one of the things that people hunt after and play the game for.
I think you began to do this, but dropped it in the middle and never went back to it.
I dropped it in the middle because, according to Wanze, my data was no good because I used the low end, rather than using the maximum potential profit of a farmer. I didn’t explain it at the time because I got sick of the futility, but I used the low end because:
1) My argument has to do with the “average” player. The “casual” player.
2) That means limited time and not maxing out earning potential
3)Using any type of farm or train for data brings in other problems, because ANet has a history of nerfing farms and certain trains are viewed as degenerate
A big part of the argument in general is “What is the average player capable of compared to flippers/etc.” But apparently there’s not even agreement on what constitutes an average player.
So why would I continue when my data was already being thrown out because I wasn’t using data that someone liked?
(May be a double post, internet did weird things there. Will edit/trash if need be)
I dropped it in the middle because, according to Wanze, my data was no good because I used the low end, rather than using the maximum potential profit of a farmer. I didn’t explain it at the time because I got sick of the futility, but I used the low end because:
1) My argument has to do with the “average” player. The “casual” player.
2) That means limited time and not maxing out earning potential
3)Using any type of farm or train for data brings in other problems, because ANet has a history of nerfing farms and certain trains are viewed as degenerateA big part of the argument in general is “What is the average player capable of compared to flippers/etc.” But apparently there’s not even agreement on what constitutes an average player.
So why would I continue when my data was already being thrown out because I wasn’t using data that someone liked?
Wanze may know a lot about the TP, but he isn’t in charge of it. JS is in charge, and he asked for exactly what you began to provide and said that the actual numbers don’t matter. Why should Wanze’s opinion overrule him?
John Smith already said that before he would consider providing metrics like that, a well-reasoned argument as to why that data would be relevant was required.
He isn’t going to provide data about wealth disparities unless someone presents a reasoned argument that wealth disparities are bad.
Horse feathers.
They are not going to provide that data under any circumstances (no matter how compelling the argument) because it would cause a huge uproar among the community. (They were happy to release that information when the news was good).
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/john-smith-on-the-guild-wars-2-virtual-economy/
Anything I post is just the opinion of a very vocal minority of 1.
Wealth disparities are bad because they do in some fashion effect the ceiling of a price, when factored in with supply and demand. This tends to combine with inflation, which creates a moving ceiling. Some can keep up with that ceiling, others cannot. For those that cannot, they are essentially stuck in place, depending on their goal. This generally leads to burnout, which leads to no longer logging in, much less spending money on the gem store.
Luxury items add to the fun of a game. They are as necessary in some capacity as all other parts of the game are. They are part of core gameplay, because they are one of the things that people hunt after and play the game for.
I posit that willingness to pay is more relevant than ability to pay. Ergo, wealth disparity is a minor player compared to supply and demand and inflation, especially since every single player is fully capable of being their own stand along supply chain as well as being a member of every other player’s supply chain.
Just because I have 1 million dollars, it doesn’t mean that I’m going to pay you 1 million dollars for your apple. Might I pay 1c more? Depends on why I want it. Might I pay a lot more? Not in a video game where I have many other options (such as farming it or placing buy orders).
Furthermore, because the wealthy are unable to prevent others from creating new supply, driving up the prices for something would benefit all players since all players have the same ability to create new supply of any item (other than discontinued and thus luxury items). If the fact that I’m a millionaire means I’m willing to pay you 1 million dollars for your apple, you, the poor apple farmer, just made 1 million dollars. It’s an extreme example, but the fact remains that a willingness to pay more translates into more money for the people who provide the supply.
As to burnout, how would you correlate wealth disparity with that concept and how would you establish a causal link?
Server: Devona’s Rest
Wealth disparities are bad because they do in some fashion effect the ceiling of a price, when factored in with supply and demand. This tends to combine with inflation, which creates a moving ceiling. Some can keep up with that ceiling, others cannot. For those that cannot, they are essentially stuck in place, depending on their goal. This generally leads to burnout, which leads to no longer logging in, much less spending money on the gem store.
Luxury items add to the fun of a game. They are as necessary in some capacity as all other parts of the game are. They are part of core gameplay, because they are one of the things that people hunt after and play the game for.
I posit that willingness to pay is more relevant than ability to pay. Ergo, wealth disparity is a minor player compared to supply and demand and inflation, especially since every single player is fully capable of being their own stand along supply chain as well as being a member of every other player’s supply chain.
Just because I have 1 million dollars, it doesn’t mean that I’m going to pay you 1 million dollars for your apple. Might I pay 1c more? Depends on why I want it. Might I pay a lot more? Not in a video game where I have many other options (such as farming it or placing buy orders).
Furthermore, because the wealthy are unable to prevent others from creating new supply, driving up the prices for something would benefit all players since all players have the same ability to create new supply of any item (other than discontinued and thus luxury items). If the fact that I’m a millionaire means I’m willing to pay you 1 million dollars for your apple, you, the poor apple farmer, just made 1 million dollars. It’s an extreme example, but the fact remains that a willingness to pay more translates into more money for the people who provide the supply.
As to burnout, how would you correlate wealth disparity with that concept and how would you establish a causal link?
Server: Devona’s Rest
Wanze may know a lot about the TP, but he isn’t in charge of it. JS is in charge, and he asked for exactly what you began to provide and said that the actual numbers don’t matter. Why should Wanze’s opinion overrule him?
JS appears to be in general agreement with Wanze’s assessment, so providing any more data seems futile at best.
Aside from that, I would still need a general ballpark of what a flipper makes in a given time frame. At least 2 hours. I can’t flip, I don’t have the brain for it, so I need someone else to provide that information. If nothing else, I need a safe assumption number to use, and I don’t want to wildly guess on that, as that wouldn’t be fair since I didn’t wildly guess on the other activities.
If you flip and can give me a ballpark of total profit you make in around 2 hours, I can continue where I left off, for whatever it might be worth.
@Brittitude: I’ll reply to you when I get the chance, but I have to run to work in about 10 minutes, so I’m gonna stop posting for now.
1) Is there a disparity of wealth
2) If so, what is the severity
3) How does that severity line up (who is it making the most and least in terms of activities)
4) Where is the median (?) and as such, the “average player”
5) How much is that “average” player making in a day
6) How does that amount compare to current prices, the rate of inflation, and the idea that the goal post is constantly moving for a segment of the playerbase, creating a sense of futility and leading to a lack of fun
1-3 dont account for the fact that there are players who simply accumulate money because they spend far less than they actually make. This is going to be true of any player who accomplishes obtaining everything they wanted, and continues playing the game. For example, if someone’s happy with all the skins they’ve obtained, best armor set (or three) for each character, and has no reason to go out of their way to make money, they’re still going to accumulate money. For example, if I no longer needed to craft an ascended set, the ~450g I spent on the single set for my guardian would simply be sitting in my inventory still. The money I would continue to make would continue to accumulate and in a couple months I’d have thousands of gold too.
4) The median can shift drastically, as can a player’s position in regard to it. And it can shift in a matter of hours, not just weeks/months. An “average player” is a similarly shifting definition. Is it an average time per day? Per week? Month? Year? In the last 80 days (the amount of time I’ve played), I’ve accumulated almost a thousand hours. Yet I believe myself to be an average player.
5) 30 days, 750g. An average of 15g a day. For some hardcore farming methods, you can make 3-4 times that much.
6) What goal post? Just because YOU want a legendary does not mean all the other players want a legendary.
JS appears to be in general agreement with Wanze’s assessment, so providing any more data seems futile at best.
Aside from that, I would still need a general ballpark of what a flipper makes in a given time frame. At least 2 hours. I can’t flip, I don’t have the brain for it, so I need someone else to provide that information. If nothing else, I need a safe assumption number to use, and I don’t want to wildly guess on that, as that wouldn’t be fair since I didn’t wildly guess on the other activities.
If you flip and can give me a ballpark of total profit you make in around 2 hours, I can continue where I left off, for whatever it might be worth.
.
I don’t recall seeing a response from JS, but IIRC you posted that you would continue the thought later then didn’t. So if you’re not interested in continuing the discussion why would JS respond?
As for flipping, I’m an amateur but I’ve done it. As I understand it, flippers make money on the volume of trades and the speed of buying/selling. But it’s impossible to put an actual number on it, the profit depends on how much you spend. I have concentrated on high velocity markets like crafting mats, where I might only make a 10% or 20% profit but most buy/sell cycles are completed within hours. Starting with 100 gold, I might end up with 120 gold for the next round of buying/selling, then 135 or so, etc.
But it’s easy to get stuck with unsold items if you price it wrong, several times I’ve had things sit on the TP for a week or so before selling. There are several thousand crafting mats sitting on the TP from a few months ago that I priced too high and have not sold yet. Every couple of weeks I find a few gold when one of the items I invested in sells out.
So profits scale with the amount you can spend and the speed you sell them at. Of course the fantasy version of the flipper is someone buying up all the precursors and selling them at 100% profit, but the market is small enough that only a few players can do this and they’ll most likely end up competing with each other and undercut by those who get a precursor through the MF or drop.
There is more potential for drastic gains by investing and speculation, but these are also far more risky. I’ve done some key runs and used the weapon tickets to buy half a dozen weapon skins which I sold for an average of 100 gold or so each. They didn’t come from the TP so it’s not “flipping.” Likewise, those who are prepared to act immediately on market changes when new features are announced (like ascended armor crafting, changes to runes and sigils, the new wardrobe/dye system) can make a lot of money quickly, but this isn’t flipping, per se, but predicting and acting upon changes in the buying habits of other players.
So, ultimately I think the problem with proving your solutions are necessary lies in the fact that you have misidentified the problem. The TP works the way it was intended to work, the opportunities come mostly from the willingness of other players to trade gold for convenience. Things are much the same in the real world, and unlikely to change no matter what changes the devs make to the game.
What is with the crafter, who likes crafting? He crafts 30 items that he makes a net profit of 10 silver each on because the mats cost 75s and the item sells for 1 gold.
In your opinion, 3 gold per day is acceptable profit but he pulls out 25.5g out of the tp and gets hit by the tax.
On the one hand, maybe he should just find a market with better margins, nobody can guarantee that every potential transaction will offer a net profit, and just as players have to factor in the 15% tax today, they’d need to factor in the additional tax when deciding what to sell and for what prices.
On the other hand, the system could be more flexible, allowing a higher cushion to allow more sales before the tax really gets in the way. I don’t have it in me to juggle the numbers and determine the fair starting point.
It will also have the negative side effect that players actually HAVE to sell stuff on the TP every day unless they want to get hit by the progressive tax. And because they dont know when their sell listing will be bought, it encourages players to sell to the highest bidder. Example:
According to some on this thread, the average player already sells to the highest bidder much of the time, so all this would do is make that a less idiotic proposition. And keep in mind, you wouldn’t be hit when the item sells, you would be hit when the gold is removed from the TP, so you could place buy and sell orders all you like, whenever you like, all you’d need to pay attention to is when you withdraw money from the TP. To my mind, this would be easy for an average player to manage, while a player that is constantly trying to flip goods and currency would have to withdraw from the TP more frequently.
Average Joe earns 3g worth of loot every day from drops. He always adds it to the lowest listing but from monday to friday, demand seems lower than supply but on the weekend, demands rises and he sells stuff worth 9g on saturday and 12g on sunday, which gets hit by progressive tax.
See, in this example, if he finds that all his goods sell on weekends, he would be best off not collecting anything from the TP until he’s done on Sunday, then letting the tax mellow out over the rest of the week, and be back down to the minimum level in the cycle by Friday.
A progressive tax would also not hurt me as a tp player because my profits are given to me by other players, so i would basically just sink more of everybody elses gold.
If the outcome of the progressive tax is that more gold gets siphoned than under the current system, the benefit to that is that it allows for more money faucets to be opened to balance it out, meaning that as more gold is removed by the TP, more gold could be added to adventure content without adding to inflation.
But would this progressive tax make the TP way more complicated for the average player?
In a sense, the UI would definitely need to spell out a player’s options, like before they hit “withdraw” from the TP, it would spell out what the resulting tax would be, and how long it would take to draw down.
I think the negative effects that your suggestion would have on the whole player base (and the economy) are far worse than what we have now. It would drive people into other ways of trading than the tp, which usually involves alot of scams by trading over mail and hawking in map chat, something the tp was designed to eliminate.
I don’t think so, not so long as that sort of activity is harshly and publicly punished. Players will always try and skirt the rules, that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t have any rules.
If you want your “other gameplay” to have similar value to the tradepost, then demand that value when you sell crap.
Are you suggesting that I try to sell the items I loot for several times the going rate? What good could that possibly do? I’d be out the listing fee and it would just sit there indefinitely.
Or if a player sold items at a loss too. Would this progressive tax track that i sold at a loss?
I doubt it, it would be your job to not sell things at a loss.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Most likely solution? 25% Trading post tax. This means everything just got more expensive for everyone.
Ugh no. ESO has a 25% tax and it’s just ridiculous. The only people who’s tax should rise to 25% or more are those who use the system excessively, it should not be the base rate.
regular people want stable markets with slow moves to either direction, otherwise they cant determine the true value of the item.
I still argue that the TP would be a far better place if it listed the actual purchase price for items, averaged over the last day, week and month, and maybe also a number that shows the trade volume over the last 24 hours, so that a player choosing between listing and auto-selling the item would know what the true fair value would be, rather than having to take a guess between extremes.
If there is no reason to discuss and it’s utterly pointless you always have the option to not post and leave the thread.
Yeah, at this point if I’m skimming a response and it boils down to “gimme proofs!” I just ignore it and move on, nothing of value there.
Players, who make their gold on the tp, have a hard time accumulating all the other account bound mats and currencies to craft their legendaries, so they dont actually consume more precursors than players that accumulated their gold to buy a precursor by farming pve. They also dont have a chance for a lucky drop of a precursor.
This is a bit of a false argument though, since the gold requirements involved are so much harder than any other. I’ve had the core non-gold elements of a Legendary for about a year now, I had World Completion within a couple months, GoB as soon as achievements started giving out tokens, plenty of karma for the karma portions by last summer, I haven’t bothered to convert all my currencies around to make the actual components because there’d be no point yet, but that’s the work of an afternoon at most. The real stumbling block is being able to afford the ~1000g or so in precursors and other gold-based items needed to make the thing. Sure, someone who spends all their time on the TP might not have those things, but if you want to spend most of your time on the TP then it’s far easier to dabble in the rest of the game to get the other items than it is for a player who mostly plays the rest of the game to afford the gold requirements.
Well, when the doctor tells me I have a broken arm, I don’t say “I don’t know how to read an x-ray, but I’m not sure you do either, so why should I take your word for it?”
It’s still a good idea in complex medical situations to seek out a second opinion.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
(edited by Ohoni.6057)
He propose increasing the fee to trades by 1%? It doesn’t really specify that in the OP. If that’s the case, it makes no sense. Why would you want to increase the fees you would have to pay? In fact, it would be nice if the fees were decreased so players can make more currency for the junk we sell.
As a means to punish TP Barons. The logic was flawed.
Punish for what? TP is open to every player. I’m very happy that anytime I get some drop in the field that I don’t want in my inventory, I can immediately throw it on the TP, and get real money for it rather than having to go to vendors every time I full up just to sell it for chump.
This is what we’ve been trying to explain to the complainers. They don’t like that TP players can make money off of others, so they’re trying to formulate a reasoning to punish the rich. It’s more about personal preferences and/or jealousy, than it is with imaginary problems with the system.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
The way ya’ll are using words to spin it, you might as well just flat out lie to him/her.
Crimlet it’s not about punishing anyone. It’s about balancing the game pure and simple.
Serenity now~Insanity later
See, in this example, if he finds that all his goods sell on weekends, he would be best off not collecting anything from the TP until he’s done on Sunday, then letting the tax mellow out over the rest of the week, and be back down to the minimum level in the cycle by Friday.
I singled out this response because its a prime example how it would not only affect the rich and would limit Average Joe´s use of the TP compared to the status quo.
What about items that he bought on the tp? He wont be able to pick those up too for another week, without being hit by the tax because you pick up gold and items at the same time. If you want to implement an option to pick up goods and gold seperately it makes the pick up tab prone to be exploited as free storage.
If the cooldown for the higher tax would be 1 week to reset, i would just get an account for every weekday, to keep my cashflow going every day. Gold and Items can be easily moved between accounts via a guild bank.
Nonetheless, I think there were some good thoughts in your posts, even though it obviously still has alot of flaws. In order to build up on it, i would suggest to you a different modus operandi. Right now you are making very long posts in which you discuss different points with different people. That way its hard for other to get a clear image of your idea because all your suggestions that might work and that will not are scattered over various lengthy posts.
In order to define and refine your suggestion you should write it down in one seperate post. As a format, I would suggest the CDI format outlined by Mark Katzbach:
Proposal Overview
<A short description of the proposal that is being put forward>
Goal of Proposal
<What problem are you trying to solve with your proposal>
Proposal Functionality
<How does your proposal work in regard in relation to the current design of GW2>
Associated Risks
<What risks or problems can you foresee with this proposal which you would like to have assistance on from other members of the CDI>
No doubt that other people will point out flaws in your suggestion like they did before but if you find a way to get rid of these flaws, you can go answer them directly, like you did before but you can also edit your suggestion post. That way, we always have a clear description, of how your suggestion looks right now, after it was reworked. Right now, we would have to skim through all your posts in order to do that.
Just some hopefully constructive critizism for you, so you dont have to repeat yourself several times and your suggestions might lead somewhere.
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Left out the rest of your post because i said something about it several times already.
First of all, Flippers dont make the most profit per hour on the tp. Me personally, i make way more profit in speculating, which requires a shift in the game meta to be profitable. If your knowledge about the game overall is very good, which i think mine is, you can make way higher profits in a shorter period of game time. Even though it usually takes a couple of weeks/months for speculations to pay off, after you went through the first gap of a couple of weeks with no returns, high profits will come in on a regular basis. Other activities, like salvaging, crafting, forging also have a higher return rate than flipping. From your posts i see that you think the flipper is the problem, which in my opinion is not true. And i am not assuming that, i tested that myself and my portfolio of tp activities resembles it.
John also stated that his data doesnt show any indication that tp barons affect the price of precursors significantly. Due to their droprate only a certain number of legendaries can be crafted or worked towards simultaniously at any given time.
Lets say only 10% of the player base can currently afford to pay for a precursor (disregarding the cheap ones that nobody wants). Many tp players certainly belong into that group but so are people that buy gold with gems and hardcore farmers that make 50g per day. If you want to afford a precursor, you need to get into that group of 10% by constantly making gold. You rise further to the top, once someone buys a precursor because most of the time, that player will drop out of the top 10% with his purchase. Players, who make their gold on the tp, have a hard time accumulating all the other account bound mats and currencies to craft their legendaries, so they dont actually consume more precursors than players that accumulated their gold to buy a precursor by farming pve. They also dont have a chance for a lucky drop of a precursor.
So if we assume that every 1000th player in the game is someone who makes 1000g profit in a month on the tp to buy a precursor, there will be 99 other people, who earned or bought 1000g in the same timeframe, so he is only 1 in 100 buying a precursor and therefore doesnt significantly influence the price.
Especially after crafting the 2nd legendary, getting map completion again will put an ever longer “timegate” on the pace of crafting his next than karma and skillpoints alone, so his impact on the market will get even less. You are assuming that people who make 10 times more gold than you, also pay and consume precursors at a pace 1 times higher tha´n you, which is not true.
Granted, the tp player could just resort to buying legendaries directly to circumvent the account bound components. And there i agree that Legendaries should never have been tradeable.About your example of tp players grouping up and cornering a market for flipping, its rather counterproductive because they overbid and undercut each other, bringing the price faster into equilibrium.
Flipping is still the widely used form. Speculation (when successful) will certainly turn a higher profit, but it’s still over the course of days or weeks or even months in some cases. My suggestion was to slow down the earning potential of the flip.
I’m not sure how you went to precursors, i’m pretty sure i never suggested the pre market was being manipulated or that i claim only the limited few that flip or the lucky are the only ones able to afford them. Actually my post was speaking about the market as a whole. You asked for an example of how wealth or income disparity might be impacting the market, affecting the rest of the players in the poorer sector. That was just one speculative example. You’re welcome to address my speculation.
Guilds that run on the premise to profit from the market are doing so for a few reasons. The big one however, is to lower competition in any single market. I don’t think i used the words “cornering a market”, which would for sure be counterproductive.
[TAO] Founder/Owner and Administrator for the NSP Server Website
(edited by munkiman.3068)
About your example of tp players grouping up and cornering a market for flipping, its rather counterproductive because they overbid and undercut each other, bringing the price faster into equilibrium.
Flipping is still the widely used form. Speculation (when successful) will certainly turn a higher profit, but it’s still over the course of days or weeks or even months in some cases. My suggestion was to slow down the earning potential of the flip.
Well, first, please explain why flipping is harmful to the game before proposing solutions. You already know JS’s position on this – flippers bring buy/sell prices closer to each other faster leading to a more efficient marketplace. This means:
Someone farming iron ore and selling to the highest buy order gets more money.
Someone levelling up crafting skills buying iron ore from the sell orders available gets it at a lower price.
Why is this harmful to the game?
Second, how does the game track who is “flipping” vs. someone who is farming, salvaging, or has some crafting mats left over because he accidentally bought 100 iron ore instead of 10? A proposal to stop flippers must be able to differentiate between flipping and other activities.
And, some situations to deal with:
I have a stack of 50 iron ore that I mined myself, and I buy 50 iron ore from the TP, then an hour later I buy 50 more. I combine them into a single stack of 150 ore and list them on the TP. How does the game track which ones I can sell and which are “flipped?”
I buy 50 iron ore from the TP and send them to my wife’s account, who lists them on the TP. Is she flipping them? How does the game track this?
I buy 150 iron ore from the TP and refine them into iron bars and list them on the TP. Is this flipping? How does the game track this? What if each iron bar was made of one newly purchased iron ore, one purchased yesterday, and one that was mined?
I buy 50 pieces of armor from the TP and salvage them into iron ore and list them on the TP. Is this flipping? How does the game track this?
You seem to present a very simple idea “stop flippers from making so much money,” but I don’t think you really know what this involves or how difficult it would be to implement such a system. And I don’t think that flipping is as harmful as you seem to think it is, and I’m not really sure what you consider flipping anyway.
“Second, how does the game track who is “flipping” vs. someone who is farming, salvaging, or has some crafting mats left over because he accidentally bought 100 iron ore instead of 10? A proposal to stop flippers must be able to differentiate between flipping and other activities.
And, some situations to deal with:
I have a stack of 50 iron ore that I mined myself, and I buy 50 iron ore from the TP, then an hour later I buy 50 more. I combine them into a single stack of 150 ore and list them on the TP. How does the game track which ones I can sell and which are “flipped?”
I buy 50 iron ore from the TP and send them to my wife’s account, who lists them on the TP. Is she flipping them? How does the game track this?
I buy 150 iron ore from the TP and refine them into iron bars and list them on the TP. Is this flipping? How does the game track this? What if each iron bar was made of one newly purchased iron ore, one purchased yesterday, and one that was mined?
I buy 50 pieces of armor from the TP and salvage them into iron ore and list them on the TP. Is this flipping? How does the game track this?
You seem to present a very simple idea “stop flippers from making so much money,” but I don’t think you really know what this involves or how difficult it would be to implement such a system. And I don’t think that flipping is as harmful as you seem to think it is, and I’m not really sure what you consider flipping anyway."
The only tracking a system would need to do would be on each buy order, a timer resets. I used 12 hours, could be more, could be less. If you buy from the TP, the last completed buy order would set the final time. It wouldn’t need to track gathering, if you gather and sell, nothing would trigger, you can gather all day. But if you buy, well you’ll just have to wait to sell. Sure it’s an inconvenience to a mistaken purchase, but nothing like a flat or progressive tax type of penalty. You could also buy and craft till your hearts content, to me crafting is a positive, productive thing, for quite a few reasons. I don’t think earnings made from crafting are even remotely out of balance. And no, 2 people that work in tandem “flipping” wouldn’t be time gated, but like i said before, it could be considered an exploit if it were a relied on method to work around the gate. Not to mention, moving that much product around in mail is severally limited.
“Someone farming iron ore and selling to the highest buy order gets more money.
Someone levelling up crafting skills buying iron ore from the sell orders available gets it at a lower price.”
That simply isn’t true, the fast moving markets fluctuate so rapidly that making a profit even in a highly competitive market, is not only possible, it’s actually quite practical. The economy being global, moves markets at a pretty extreme pace. Buy orders are lower than sell orders, it’s less money to the “sell now” mentality, which is arguably a “punishment” in itself. Given there are fees in place, those fees soak those lower buy orders. I had a discussion last night with 5 players i know that play the market daily, they all agreed it’s heavily weighted to the buyer beware format. It is what it is, “most players are suckers”. Unless you watch the market, you get the shaft, sometimes within minutes of the selling/buying process. If you look at an overall buy/sell transaction, the savvy buyer that makes 60% – 15% the tax = 35% left to pocket of the seller. That’s just an example, obviously, of how it appears to be weighted.
Sorry about the formatting, i have a problem using the quoting system on this forum. I’m also not married to any of this, just tossing around thoughts on it.
[TAO] Founder/Owner and Administrator for the NSP Server Website
My suggestion was to slow down the earning potential of the flip.
Basically, what you’re saying is that Anet should punish certain players because they are good at what they do.
What about the TP players who are bad? Take me for example, I lost a ton of money from bad speculations. If the good TP players get punished, does that mean that bad TP players like me get a reimbursement? That would bring balance to the market, right?
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
@Tolunart, Wanze, Brittitude, etc.
Sorry for not yet continuing my “event information” spree or whatever you’d like to call it. Got home late and wanted to see what all April 15th had done to the game…and ohhhh boy did it ever change things.
I haven’t actually had the chance to see how events and stuff have completely changed, and I only got to take on a single world boss last night, and only after it had spawned, so I have no inkling to those event chains.
I need a different sort of help from you guys at the moment, primarily just trying to figure things out on a general level due to limited time to play yesterday and tonight:
1) Do you guys happen to know how much event coin was nerfed by?
2) The world boss schedule has me completely and utterly confused. The schedule implies they should only be spawning at the listed times, but last night my guild indicated that if nothing else, Maw was spawning several times in what looked like a 30(?) minute pattern? Hoes does this work now? x_X
3) It seems both QD and FGS trains took a hit, especially FGS. I have only seen this mentioned in forums. Can anyone confirm?
4) Did anything change with Orr Temples?
Yesterday seems to have thrown everything into chaos, ya know? And while this is data that I need for my argument, I’m also just asking at the moment as a player, because kitten. I have no idea what is going on, but if you guys do, it would be great to be back up to speed again.
@Tolunart, Wanze, Brittitude, etc.
Sorry for not yet continuing my “event information” spree or whatever you’d like to call it. Got home late and wanted to see what all April 15th had done to the game…and ohhhh boy did it ever change things.
I haven’t actually had the chance to see how events and stuff have completely changed, and I only got to take on a single world boss last night, and only after it had spawned, so I have no inkling to those event chains.
I need a different sort of help from you guys at the moment, primarily just trying to figure things out on a general level due to limited time to play yesterday and tonight:
1) Do you guys happen to know how much event coin was nerfed by?
2) The world boss schedule has me completely and utterly confused. The schedule implies they should only be spawning at the listed times, but last night my guild indicated that if nothing else, Maw was spawning several times in what looked like a 30(?) minute pattern? Hoes does this work now? x_X
3) It seems both QD and FGS trains took a hit, especially FGS. I have only seen this mentioned in forums. Can anyone confirm?
4) Did anything change with Orr Temples?
Yesterday seems to have thrown everything into chaos, ya know? And while this is data that I need for my argument, I’m also just asking at the moment as a player, because kitten. I have no idea what is going on, but if you guys do, it would be great to be back up to speed again.
1) dont know
2) dulfy has a great schedule: http://dulfy.net/2014/04/15/gw2-world-boss-schedule/
Some events are bugged but i ran 6 boss events today and it worked quite smoothly without much breaks. Karka queen has awesome loot anyways, when you kill her but the loot from the pre events is far higher due to mob density, same goes for moodnir ulgoth and golem. People are so fucussed on champ bags that they forget killing regular mobs, which might not drop much but it adds up, if you kills enough.
I have a gilded infusion and those 1s+ drops from mobs (and players in wvw zerg fights) add up.
3) As far as heard, time between spawns has been increased and at least in QD, 2 champs have been downgraded to elite/veteran. Even before the patch it was already more lucrative to run karma train in EOTM, now it definately is because the next champ bag is always closer than in frostgorge and you get more other kills along the way.
4) I dont think much changed with orr temples
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
1) Event coin hasn’t changed that i know of.
2) Maw has been glitched since patch, it’s rolled on and off several times, only to get stuck. World boss events being on a timer limits access to them for most players, limiting earning potential.
3) They got hit with pure gold returns and champ runs are now events, in most cases dropping them down to vets. There is also the only getting one boss chest in a dungeon a day.
4) Haven’t seen much about Orr temples.
Basically rewards/earning potential has been lowered overall.
The market is swooning, gear skins that didn’t used to be worth anything in the market are now selling (skins!). The Dye market is up, hand over fist in un’id dyes and even the cheaper stuff. I’m sure that’ll settle in time. Right now is a great time to be a TP Baron and the worst time to actually play the game.
Even dailies got the nerf bat!
[TAO] Founder/Owner and Administrator for the NSP Server Website
The only tracking a system would need to do would be on each buy order, a timer resets. I used 12 hours, could be more, could be less. If you buy from the TP, the last completed buy order would set the final time.
Do you remember when they made fused (Wintersday, Jade etc.) weapon skins sellable? Already existing skins were not sellable but new ones were. If you had one of each, you could stack them and then both would be sellable.
The system as it exists can’t track this. If I have a stack of 50 “old” ore that is sellable, and I buy a stack of 50 “new” ore that is blocked from sale, all I have to do is put them together and the system “forgets” that I can’t sell the new ore.
This means that any smart player (and the ones making money from the TP are pretty smart and know the game well) is soon going to realize that he just needs to keep a single “old” item to get around this limitation, while it punishes those who were never intended to be punished.
It’s untested, but likely that mailing an unstackable item to another account will also have the same effect. When the solution only punishes those who are not supposed to be punished, it’s not a viable solution.
“Someone farming iron ore and selling to the highest buy order gets more money.
Someone levelling up crafting skills buying iron ore from the sell orders available gets it at a lower price.”That simply isn’t true, the fast moving markets fluctuate so rapidly that making a profit even in a highly competitive market, is not only possible, it’s actually quite practical. The economy being global, moves markets at a pretty extreme pace. Buy orders are lower than sell orders, it’s less money to the “sell now” mentality, which is arguably a “punishment” in itself.
This directly contradicts what JS and others with experience with this sort of thing agree on. If your position is that JS is wrong about something so basic to the nature of the marketplace, you’ll need to demonstrate why he is wrong in order to continue.
This is why he asked for proof that there is a problem. “This is simply not true” is not acceptable without proof of what you say. For starters, what schools did you study economics at, and what degrees related to economics do you have?
Finally, selling to a buy order is not arguably a punishment, it’s a choice. Players are presented with two options, to create a sell order for an amount of their choice, or to sell to a buy order of a known price. The player selling something chooses to get his money now by selling to a buy order instead of taking on the uncertainty of waiting for someone to pay his asking price and the risk of another seller undercutting him and the possibility that it will take longer to sell or never sell at all.
From personal experience, if I am trying to sell something in a fast-moving market it’s easy to misjudge the correct price as supply fluctuates, and I have often had to wait days or weeks for something to sell just because I priced it 5c too high. Giving players the choice to get their money immediately, albeit at a lower rate than those willing to study the markets and/or wait to sell at the price they want, is a good thing. It’s not a punishment, and I don’t see how taking this position against what JS has already said will lead to changes.
(edited by tolunart.2095)
Thanks for the info guys.
Not sure where to even take my argument at this point. The nature of these changes suggests (to me at least) both less gold -and- less items being brought into the game.
Just please bear with me for this one post as I try to get the snark and bitterness out of my system by proclaiming: But hey, all the TP flippers still get to make all their gold all the time. Clearly Guild Wars 2 was meant to actually be Market Wars 2!
Do you remember when they made fused (Wintersday, Jade etc.) weapon skins sellable? Already existing skins were not sellable but new ones were. If you had one of each, you could stack them and then both would be sellable.
The system as it exists can’t track this. If I have a stack of 50 “old” ore that is sellable, and I buy a stack of 50 “new” ore that is blocked from sale, all I have to do is put them together and the system “forgets” that I can’t sell the new ore.
This means that any smart player (and the ones making money from the TP are pretty smart and know the game well) is soon going to realize that he just needs to keep a single “old” item to get around this limitation, while it punishes those who were never intended to be punished.
It’s untested, but likely that mailing an unstackable item to another account will also have the same effect. When the solution only punishes those who are not supposed to be punished, it’s not a viable solution.
There wouldn’t be separate items, the account would be flagged. Similar to how ascended refinement in crafting functions now. The rest, as i said, is speculation as to why i feel wealth disparity and the act of flipping have problems. I have no issue with people disagreeing with me. Real world market economics is far more complicated than GW2 economics, I can’t intend to know much more than anyone without any data to the contrary, even the mindset of the player is vastly different than a real world investor, it’s just a virtual economy after all. For all I know JS has a plan brewing already, or maybe it’s just fine in his eyes. It’s fair to want to have a discussion about it.
[TAO] Founder/Owner and Administrator for the NSP Server Website
Then all I can say is that you are arguing from a position that is based on mistaken assumptions. You are wrong about what the system as it exists now is intended to do, and seeing problems where none exist.
If you will not answer questions about your position or demonstrate why you know more about the situation than JS, there is nothing to talk about. You and those arguing against “flippers” are simply wrong about there being a problem. The system is working as intended.
I do have to say that JS is a lot more experienced in these matters and generally smarter than I am: he simply refuses to engage in these sorts of conversations, which is the smart thing to do.
(edited by tolunart.2095)
Then all I can say is that you are arguing from a position that is based on mistaken assumptions. You are wrong about what the system as it exists now is intended to do, and seeing problems where none exist.
If you will not answer questions about your position or demonstrate why you know more about the situation than JS, there is nothing to talk about. You and those arguing against “flippers” are simply wrong about there being a problem. The system is working as intended.
I do have to say that JS is a lot more experienced in these matters and generally smarter than I am: he simply refuses to engage in these sorts of conversations, which is the smart thing to do.
That’s rather silly don’t you think? For all i know JS has a liberal arts degree with a good head for economics. Why should our educational backgrounds dictate in intelligent conversation? Even if i was a PhD in econ (science), how would my knowledge applied to an MMO economy, trump that of JS’s working knowledge of it? Especially when it comes to one particular MMO. I’m not calling him out here, just stating the obvious. I know nothing about his background!
You’re also making assumptions that he’s choosing not to participate, maybe he’s busy? Maybe he’s got a lot to deal with during this huge patch? A lot of devs can’t or don’t read the forums and respond regularly, for i’m sure, various different reasons.
[TAO] Founder/Owner and Administrator for the NSP Server Website
Thanks for the info guys.
Not sure where to even take my argument at this point. The nature of these changes suggests (to me at least) both less gold -and- less items being brought into the game.
Just please bear with me for this one post as I try to get the snark and bitterness out of my system by proclaiming: But hey, all the TP flippers still get to make all their gold all the time. Clearly Guild Wars 2 was meant to actually be Market Wars 2!
Are you trying to ascertain how much can be made via pve in order to start to identify the potential disparity?
(edited by Fenrir.3609)
Thanks for the info guys.
Not sure where to even take my argument at this point. The nature of these changes suggests (to me at least) both less gold -and- less items being brought into the game.
Just please bear with me for this one post as I try to get the snark and bitterness out of my system by proclaiming: But hey, all the TP flippers still get to make all their gold all the time. Clearly Guild Wars 2 was meant to actually be Market Wars 2!
I beg to differ, at least with items. People have been so used to running champ trains and showing up for world bosses/temples in the last minute because they think the phat lootz are in champ bags/chests that they forgot how fast your inventory and wallet fills up with high frequenzy mob kills. Just done the Megadestroyer and while i running into the volcano form the north, i passed 50 destroyer crabs on my way. I come to the center while the pre event starts in the south to defend the lab.
50 people were waiting at the waypoint for the boss to spawn. I say in chat that theres 50 destroyer crabs in the north tunnel, lets kill them. 10 people follow me and the rest stays at the waypoint. it takes us 2 minutes to clear the tunnel, 50 kills and run back to the waypoint with 10 people. then i run to the south towards the pre event in the lab and get another 50 kills. The nthe event spawns to clear the tunnels. I tag another 30 mobs in the south tunnel and 40 in the north tunnel because nobody was there fro mthose 40 people still waiting at the waypoint. Event for defending the 3 scientists spawns and i get another 30 kills while at least 30 still stand at the waypoint. Then the boss spawns and that pve zerg at the waypoint runs in formation to the edge of the lava and spams 1. I go and get a couple of hits in, go to the waypoint and clear my full bags while they kill the boss. While people were waiting for the pre event to finish for 12-15 minutes, i got 200 kills, including 2 rares and an exotic.
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
You’re also making assumptions that he’s choosing not to participate, maybe he’s busy? Maybe he’s got a lot to deal with during this huge patch? A lot of devs can’t or don’t read the forums and respond regularly, for i’m sure, various different reasons.
Not making assumptions, he’s responded several times in this thread, and people arguing against the status quo refuse to give him what he asks for, or cannot give him what he asks for. If you do not respond to reasonable requests, why should he respond to unreasonable ones?
It’s possible I’ve missed it and I apologize if that’s true, but I haven’t seen any evidence or even a correct hypothesis that a group of the rich can negatively effect your gameplay experience. I think a clear set of ideas would help me understand and respond to the issue.
P.S. Don’t say luxury goods or I will refer you to the first rule of the tautology club.
I’ll refer you to Shiller. I believe you can draw enough correlations to respond.
Could you provide a bit more context, I’m not as familiar with Dr. Shiller’s works as I probably should be.
This is spiraling. Let’s stop discussing possible “solutions”. Before discussing a solution you must first prove a problem. I have yet to see any evidence internally or externally that there is a problem.
Speculation on player wealth is not evidence of a problem.
An anecdote is not evidence unless it demonstrates a systemic problem.
Flippers increase liquidity and bring prices closer to equilibrium, almost always lowering prices and providing preferences to other players. I see no reason why anyone would want to stop that.
This is the kind of post I mean when I say evidence. I don’t require numbers I require a coherent idea that makes sense in this setting. If I think it’s valid I’ll be researching it myself (assuming I haven’t already).
That’ll I can agree with. If we ever get access to some hard data, we’ll be in a much better place to say the least.
Please explain to me what your process would be for proving your theories if you had the data.
That’ll I can agree with. If we ever get access to some hard data, we’ll be in a much better place to say the least.
Please explain to me what your process would be for proving your theories if you had the data.
Start by seeing if there was a wealth gap, how large if present, and if it was growing. Then I could go from there.
This does not answer my question. Feel free to make assumptions as you go, fork the ideas as if drawing a decision tree. This is how I would recommend beginning the analysis with or without data.
As far as I know, he’s still waiting for a response that he can work with, instead of thinly disguised “the rich are bad people” rants.
(edited by tolunart.2095)
Way to leave out what you wanted there……..
That’ll I can agree with. If we ever get access to some hard data, we’ll be in a much better place to say the least.
Please explain to me what your process would be for proving your theories if you had the data.
Start by seeing if there was a wealth gap, how large if present, and if it was growing. Then I could go from there.
This does not answer my question. Feel free to make assumptions as you go, fork the ideas as if drawing a decision tree. This is how I would recommend beginning the analysis with or without data.
Would you mind if I msg’d you about the matter?
I’m the one who’s still waiting on a reply.
Serenity now~Insanity later
Way to leave out what you wanted there……..
That’ll I can agree with. If we ever get access to some hard data, we’ll be in a much better place to say the least.
Please explain to me what your process would be for proving your theories if you had the data.
Start by seeing if there was a wealth gap, how large if present, and if it was growing. Then I could go from there.
This does not answer my question. Feel free to make assumptions as you go, fork the ideas as if drawing a decision tree. This is how I would recommend beginning the analysis with or without data.
Would you mind if I msg’d you about the matter?
I’m the one who’s still waiting on a reply.
It’s fair to assume that he minds.
For the record, i’m not expecting JS to come in here and prove/disprove anything i’ve brought to the table. I’m actually more interested in the responses from the rest of the group and i’ve learned a few things from it.
I don’t find, nor do the flippers i’ve spoken to find this statement to be the case.
“Flippers increase liquidity and bring prices closer to equilibrium, almost always lowering prices and providing preferences to other players. I see no reason why anyone would want to stop that.”
You buy low/sell high. In fast moving markets this actual help increase prices, even if only temporarily, so that buy it now buyers, that don’t watch the market basically get screwed. When an item, not more than 10 seconds ago sold for 15s and is now 18s, why would your average player think that 18s isn’t the going rate? Especially if a flipper dumped 1000 items in at that rate.
I’ve also written on how i feel wealth/income inequality is bad for the system. The retort is typically “prove it”. It’s not unexpected to have that retort, however unfortunate that might be, i brought my speculation to the case, if it’s inaccurate, so be it.
[TAO] Founder/Owner and Administrator for the NSP Server Website
(edited by munkiman.3068)
Way to leave out what you wanted there……..
That’ll I can agree with. If we ever get access to some hard data, we’ll be in a much better place to say the least.
Please explain to me what your process would be for proving your theories if you had the data.
Start by seeing if there was a wealth gap, how large if present, and if it was growing. Then I could go from there.
This does not answer my question. Feel free to make assumptions as you go, fork the ideas as if drawing a decision tree. This is how I would recommend beginning the analysis with or without data.
Would you mind if I msg’d you about the matter?
I’m the one who’s still waiting on a reply.
It’s fair to say he’s got more important things to deal with. If you can’t present him a hypothesis he should test on the forum as he requested, why should he waste his time in PM’s with you?
Unless Anet is a really unique work environment, I don’t think jousting on the forums is what he’s paid to do.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
For the record, i’m not expecting JS to come in here and prove anything i’ve brought to the table. I’m actually more interested in the responses from the rest of the group and i’ve learned a few things from it.
I don’t find, nor do the flippers i’ve spoken to find this statement to be the case.
“Flippers increase liquidity and bring prices closer to equilibrium, almost always lowering prices and providing preferences to other players. I see no reason why anyone would want to stop that.”
You buy low/sell high. In fast moving markets this actual help increase prices, even if only temporarily, so that buy it now buyers, that don’t watch the market basically get screwed. When an item, not more than 10 seconds ago sold for 15s and is now 18s, why would your average player think that 18s isn’t the going rate? Especially if a flipper dumped 1000 items in at that rate.
I’ve also spoken on how i feel wealth/income inequality is bad for the system. The retort is typically “prove it”. It’s not unexpected to have that retort, however unfortunate that might be, i brought my speculation to the case, if it’s inaccurate, so be it.
Your speculation is inaccurate.
You seem to be assuming that flipping involves a single individual who controls prices for the market without competition.
If items are selling quickly prices will go up and down as sellers and buyers enter the market, get what they want, and move on. Several flippers compete each other for buy orders, raising the prices of those buy orders quickly. They also compete to sell the items first and take whatever profit they can, lowering prices of sell orders. This is what he means by reaching equilibrium.
For example:
Buyer A places an order for 1.50s
Buyer B places an order for 1.51s
Buyer C places an order for 1.52s
etc.
The farmer selling the items he has gathered then sells to the highest bidder. If the flippers were discouraged from playing the TP, then buy orders would not be going up and he would make a lot less money over time.
Having bought the items:
Player A places a sell order for 2.50s
Player B places a sell order for 2.49s
Player C places a sell order for 2.48s
etc.
Thus buyers looking to obtain the items right now get a better deal as flippers compete with each other for sales, lowering prices.
The more flippers who are active in a market, the faster the gap between buy and sell orders closes and the better the experience for all players. Punishing flippers for using the system as intended will only slow the process, meaning that anyone selling to buy orders makes less money, and anyone buying sell orders pays more for the item.
I don’t know who you spoke to about this or what their experiences are, but this is how flipping works. It balances itself, the best profits are found by taking the time to search for underserved markets where there is a large gap between buy and sell orders. There are many people doing this, however, so whenever you find such a market you have to move quickly to buy and sell enough to make a decent profit before others get involved and the gap closes until you make 10% profit per sale, then 5%, then lose money with each sale.
(edited by tolunart.2095)
Then all I can say is that you are arguing from a position that is based on mistaken assumptions. You are wrong about what the system as it exists now is intended to do, and seeing problems where none exist.
If you will not answer questions about your position or demonstrate why you know more about the situation than JS, there is nothing to talk about. You and those arguing against “flippers” are simply wrong about there being a problem. The system is working as intended.
I do have to say that JS is a lot more experienced in these matters and generally smarter than I am: he simply refuses to engage in these sorts of conversations, which is the smart thing to do.
I’m quoting this for truth. The arguments thus far are basically “I can’t do well on the TP, so no one should do well”.
On a side note, John PM’d me the reasons why he can’t get too involved into these debates. If he allows me to quote him, I will.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
BTW, JS actually has the data to study and understands how fast the markets move and how many people are involved. When he says he hasn’t seen any evidence of a problem, you need to provide evidence of a problem. “Some guy told me stuff that contradicts what you know” is not evidence of a problem.
As of page 21 of this thread, there is not a single shred of evidence there is a problem.
This is not how it was explained to me as a proper process for a savvy flipper.
Typically, a fairly quick analysis is taken of the market to gauge the lowest buy price that would be filled in a certain amount of time and also the highest sell price he can move it for. Knowing the volume in front of the lowest buys, he places his order and in a matter of a few minutes all the other short undercuts of low volume move out. These were typically players that decided to place 5 to 20 items bids that were doing the higher bids, we’ll call them average but informed enough to know better players. These small orders move out quickly to get the the flippers orders, filling them while still getting out bid here and there. This process also happens on the sale side as well, as they established their top sell price.
The market in general is a buyer beware market. It’s not regulated really beyond that of the people profiting well from it and the much larger player base buying and selling almost at random as the amass items.
I’ve seen basically useless (common items) go for 10x’s their worth since there were only like 3 of them. There are suckers born every minute, type of mentality that help drive that. Not that doesn’t happen in certain real world markets, but there are at least some buyer protections in place to keep people in line.
[TAO] Founder/Owner and Administrator for the NSP Server Website
(edited by munkiman.3068)
I see. You misunderstand what “flipping” is. No problem.
John Smith.4610:
Flippers increase liquidity and bring prices closer to equilibrium, almost always lowering prices and providing preferences to other players. I see no reason why anyone would want to stop that.
I explained JS’s summary in detail. You’re welcome.
(edited by tolunart.2095)
What just happend to the dye market is a good example how flippers and speculators stabilize prices.
If no flipper or speculator had posted any buy orders for any dye (so only people who actually need to unlock that dye posted buy orders), the mayority of dyes would have no buy orders active now. But as flippers and speculators bought up the mayority of the dyes available, they gave value to those who wanted to sell immediately and not wait 1 day, a week or a couple of months to get as much gold back for their dyes. Flippers and speculators ARE willing to wait that long.
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
I’m not arguing that they are bad. I just think the allowance they are given is out of balance with the rest of the game, which results in disparity.
Serenity now~Insanity later