Guild Wars 2

ilr.9675:

John Smith:

Ensign.2189:

….already kitten ed off from eating the 5% fee of having to re-list it on top of your money being locked up for those days.

Except for the part about my feelings (I just got back from crying in a corner), everything Ensign says is correct.

Cool…sooo…. Having “your money tied up” is considered a PUNISHMENT or failure metric now? …. Smith basically backs the Day-Traders 100% then? …and sees no reasons to promote Long Term investment. And nothing is ever going to be done to make the day flippers face the realities of “Warehousing” or give up anything for their nearly infinite low bids? That just means we’re stuck in the same zombie flash market our Real World is stuck in then … minus those generous “Easing” handouts.

Okay fine, then if we’re going to base everything off real markets, then how do we start Short Selling the leveraged value of crap we think is overvalued? (starting with precursors & lodestones). Let us borrow those and then tank them. Better yet… allow day flippers to lose storage slots after a particularly brutal day of trading or just sentence them to perma death like it was hardcore mode

I will tell you if you allow the real market stuff. I will make some serious dough. Too bad we can only go long this market.

this conversation indeed predates any COF nerfs, Its a bit sad they moved this to the black lion forum, because no offfense lionites, but this sub forum is biased. It is basically the land of the people who want to make as much money as possible off of the trading post.

As to Nevets Crimsonwing, you are playing with me right? your response to the fact that one form of players obtaining money far outweighs the other and leads to disproportionate spreads of wealth concentrating wealth in the hands of one specific type of player type which is a minority of the game, and a minority of the appeal of the game, is that you meant to say obtaining money instead of making money?

you realize its totally irrelevant to the point i was making in this case whether the money is created or transfered? this specific issue is about how much money a user can obtain, not whether they are creating it or transfering it.

As to some other posts, i wont quote, because quoting is fubar right now. One poster says that the natural result of a free market is these disparities. And its not a question of fair. You are quite correct. free market is far from fair.

but this is a game, id think the developers dont want to create the type of problems real world free markets create.
I dont think they want GW2 to be an experience where 85% of people have comparitively nothing, and can never hope to compete with the top 5%

mostly because it leads to overall player dissatisfaction. The only solutions they as developers can come up with, is make the spread of wealth less drastic, which to be honest is a multi tiered issue, and i doubt they will achieve it.

OR
diminish the value of the trading post on quality of life for the average player. This is what they kind of did with ascended (mostly)

In what way are the “poor” players competing with the “wealthy” players?

There are infinite numbers of everything available to every player. No one can prevent you from obtaining anything in this game.

phys.7689:

this conversation indeed predates any COF nerfs, Its a bit sad they moved this to the black lion forum, because no offfense lionites, but this sub forum is biased. It is basically the land of the people who want to make as much money as possible off of the trading post.

Not necessarily… it’s just like any economic news portal: It doesn’t attract a LOT of people, but it’s bound to attract just as many Meritocratic and even Socialistic followers (along with a few secret “warren buffets”) as it attracts Gordon Gekkos…

So far it’s really only the Gekkos who come out to play.

TooBz.3065:

So far it’s really only the Gekkos who come out to play.

Gordon Gekko is about insider trading, this is not about insider trading. Now insider trading is an issue when website get news before everyone else does. Which happens in this game, and that is truly unfair

Hell Avenger.7021:

TooBz.3065:

So far it’s really only the Gekkos who come out to play.

Gordon Gekko is about insider trading, this is not about insider trading. Now insider trading is an issue when website get news before everyone else does. Which happens in this game, and that is truly unfair

It’s only insider trading if the website acts on said knowledge.

I know you know that, but I just wanted to clarify.

mtpelion.4562:

Hell Avenger.7021:

TooBz.3065:

So far it’s really only the Gekkos who come out to play.

Gordon Gekko is about insider trading, this is not about insider trading. Now insider trading is an issue when website get news before everyone else does. Which happens in this game, and that is truly unfair

It’s only insider trading if the website acts on said knowledge.

I know you know that, but I just wanted to clarify.

I have heard about price creeps in certain circumstances before news came out, such as trading in T1 mats for supply box.

mtpelion.4562:

In what way are the “poor” players competing with the “wealthy” players?

There are infinite numbers of everything available to every player. No one can prevent you from obtaining anything in this game.

If you have studied sociology at all, that is one of the fundamental flaws in the capitalist system. Many academics agree that the “infinite resources” or “unlimited opportunity” ideology is flawed. This is 2013, not the 20th century.

There’s no one that can say “no, you can’t have this”, but they can sure put up barriers to hinder your pursuit of that object.

Hell Avenger.7021:

TooBz.3065:

So far it’s really only the Gekkos who come out to play.

Gordon Gekko is about insider trading, this is not about insider trading. Now insider trading is an issue when website get news before everyone else does. Which happens in this game, and that is truly unfair

Wall Street is about insider trading, but Gekko is most famous (IMO) for the “greed is good” speech / attitude. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vscG3k91s58

I think this is what ilr was alluding to.

Almost every post from on this thread has been talking about how how flippers are good. Good for inflation, good for the market, etc… There have occasionally been posters (on other threads long ago) who argued that the rest of us should thank the flippers for making tons of money.

Also, some things are just funny.

TooBz.3065:

Hell Avenger.7021:

TooBz.3065:

So far it’s really only the Gekkos who come out to play.

Gordon Gekko is about insider trading, this is not about insider trading. Now insider trading is an issue when website get news before everyone else does. Which happens in this game, and that is truly unfair

Gekko is about insider trading, but is most famous (IMO) for the “greed is good” speach. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vscG3k91s58

Greed is good. There are a lot of sense in that message, just said by the wrong “person”

Hell Avenger.7021:

I have heard about price creeps in certain circumstances before news came out, such as trading in T1 mats for supply box.

That happened after the news came out.

Whether inside trading happens or not, we will never know. However, with the size of the TP it’s pretty difficult to imagine insider trading having any significant impact on the TP itself.

Reisinger.4203:

If you have studied sociology at all, that is one of the fundamental flaws in the capitalist system. Many academics agree that the “infinite resources” or “unlimited opportunity” ideology is flawed. This is 2013, not the 20th century.

There’s no one that can say “no, you can’t have this”, but they can sure put up barriers to hinder your pursuit of that object.

Well, yes. Thankfully though this flaw doesn’t exist in GW2.

Ursan.7846:

Hell Avenger.7021:

I have heard about price creeps in certain circumstances before news came out, such as trading in T1 mats for supply box.

That happened after the news came out.

Whether inside trading happens or not, we will never know. However, with the size of the TP it’s pretty difficult to imagine insider trading having any significant impact on the TP itself.

It probably wouldn’t have that much effect, but I would consider that as unfair profit.

Hell Avenger.7021:

It probably wouldn’t have that much effect, but I would consider that as unfair profit.

I don’t argue that it is. I’m just saying that whatever “impact” you saw on gw2spidy was after the information went public.

Hell Avenger.7021:

TooBz.3065:

Hell Avenger.7021:

TooBz.3065:

So far it’s really only the Gekkos who come out to play.

Gordon Gekko is about insider trading, this is not about insider trading. Now insider trading is an issue when website get news before everyone else does. Which happens in this game, and that is truly unfair

Gekko is about insider trading, but is most famous (IMO) for the “greed is good” speach. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vscG3k91s58

Greed is good. There are a lot of sense in that message, just said by the wrong “person”

And there you go. No one is saying that you are participating in Insider trading or that you have in any way violated any rule of the game. Just that you advocate the position you just endorsed.

Reisinger.4203:

mtpelion.4562:

In what way are the “poor” players competing with the “wealthy” players?

There are infinite numbers of everything available to every player. No one can prevent you from obtaining anything in this game.

If you have studied sociology at all, that is one of the fundamental flaws in the capitalist system. Many academics agree that the “infinite resources” or “unlimited opportunity” ideology is flawed. This is 2013, not the 20th century.

There’s no one that can say “no, you can’t have this”, but they can sure put up barriers to hinder your pursuit of that object.

If we ignore the philosophical debate that must be answered before your point can even be considered and just go straight to the meat of your argument, this is a video game in which infinite resouces and unlimited opportunity are programmed to exist, so any arguments against capitalism in real world economies are irrelevant.

No matter how much money I amass, there is not a single thing I can do to prevent you from obtaining something in game because every item in the game can be generated, either on demand or at random, at any given moment. If I wanted to prevent players from obtaining a specific legendary I can’t. If I bought 100% of the precursors and materials new ones would be instantly available for me to have to continue buying, 24/7. Even if I did manage to completely lock down all supply on the market by constantly buying EVERYTHING, a poor player who wants the legendary can still get it the same way the first players got it… farming the materials themselves.

There is no competition for resources in this game because all resources are equally available at all times to all players.

mtpelion.4562:

Reisinger.4203:

mtpelion.4562:

In what way are the “poor” players competing with the “wealthy” players?

There are infinite numbers of everything available to every player. No one can prevent you from obtaining anything in this game.

If you have studied sociology at all, that is one of the fundamental flaws in the capitalist system. Many academics agree that the “infinite resources” or “unlimited opportunity” ideology is flawed. This is 2013, not the 20th century.

There’s no one that can say “no, you can’t have this”, but they can sure put up barriers to hinder your pursuit of that object.

If we ignore the philosophical debate that must be answered before your point can even be considered and just go straight to the meat of your argument, this is a video game in which infinite resouces and unlimited opportunity are programmed to exist, so any arguments against capitalism in real world economies are irrelevant.

No matter how much money I amass, there is not a single thing I can do to prevent you from obtaining something in game because every item in the game can be generated, either on demand or at random, at any given moment. If I wanted to prevent players from obtaining a specific legendary I can’t. If I bought 100% of the precursors and materials new ones would be instantly available for me to have to continue buying, 24/7. Even if I did manage to completely lock down all supply on the market by constantly buying EVERYTHING, a poor player who wants the legendary can still get it the same way the first players got it… farming the materials themselves.

There is no competition for resources in this game because all resources are equally available at all times to all players.

“mostly far left extremism” <- LOL, and yes I saw you edit that out.

Resources in the market are not the same as resources obtainable elsewhere. The market is a source of obtaining resources for individuals. Control of the market, through amassing goods (such as buying out enough of a good), thus significantly limits a the ability of an individual to obtain said resources. Pretty sure that’s not how a healthy economy works.

mtpelion.4562:

No matter how much money I amass, there is not a single thing I can do to prevent you from obtaining something in game because every item in the game can be generated, either on demand or at random, at any given moment.

Now that isn’t entirely true. ArenaNet frequently releases limited items which a lot of power traders pounce upon in order to resell at a later date for ridiculous sums. Some of the flame and frost dyes went from ten gold to a hundred.

Maybe a good compromise here would be binding these limited items upon purchase from the trading post to prevent excessively wealthy players from cornering the market and leaving common goods ( which can indeed be generated whenever ) as are.

Fungalfoot.7213:

mtpelion.4562:

No matter how much money I amass, there is not a single thing I can do to prevent you from obtaining something in game because every item in the game can be generated, either on demand or at random, at any given moment.

Now that isn’t entirely true. ArenaNet frequently releases limited items which a lot of power traders pounce upon in order to resell at a later date for ridiculous sums. Some of the flame and frost dyes went from ten gold to a hundred.

Maybe a good compromise here would be binding these limited items upon purchase from the trading post to prevent excessively wealthy players from cornering the market and leaving common goods ( which can indeed be generated whenever ) as are.

This ^

mtpelion.4562:

In what way are the “poor” players competing with the “wealthy” players?

There are infinite numbers of everything available to every player. No one can prevent you from obtaining anything in this game.

It’s not so much a competition between wealthy and poor — it’s a competition between all players. The wealthy player have more resource available to make purchases — to the point where they can consume large quantities of items compared to the less wealthy players.

There are not infinite resources on the TP, nor anywhere. There are hard caps (even if some of those caps are large). For example there is a hard limit on how much orichalcum ore you can farm on a single toon. It’s baked into the spawn rates, node count, and locations. There’s also a finite number of players.

TooBz.3065:

Hell Avenger.7021:

TooBz.3065:

So far it’s really only the Gekkos who come out to play.

Gordon Gekko is about insider trading, this is not about insider trading. Now insider trading is an issue when website get news before everyone else does. Which happens in this game, and that is truly unfair

Wall Street is about insider trading, but Gekko is most famous (IMO) for the “greed is good” speech / attitude. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vscG3k91s58

I think this is what ilr was alluding to.

Almost every post from on this thread has been talking about how how flippers are good. Good for inflation, good for the market, etc… There have occasionally been posters (on other threads long ago) who argued that the rest of us should thank the flippers for making tons of money.

Also, some things are just funny.

Exactly.

Flipping as in the Flash Trade variety that is allowed currently, can only misdirect the market. It CAN NOT, and DOES NOT stabilize prices. All Market data and the “clown colleges” that teach this mentality now in the Real World, base all of their findings off of a rigged CPI. (no this is not a conspiracy theory, this is common sense due to how the entire Government’s future sustainability is based 99% off of how solvent it can keep its current Debt which is linked directly to CPI & a cooked inflation rate).

Every Friday during an odd and uncharacteristic reset here in this game, we get an odd downtick of somtimes up to 15% W^W, in basically the only commodity that the silent majority really cares about. (Gem Prices). This is that covering up of the CPI basically. It wouldn’t even need to occur in the first place if there was more transparency in how flipping is being done and how people could make themselves more resilient against it.

….well actually that’s an oversimplification that maybe gives too much credit to the casual majority… so I take that back. But I think even they could at some point come to understand that the “Speculation is never a bad thing!!” propaganda is all a bunch of astroturf. It’s only real investment and real long term Capitalism (not this fake kind) that both Stabilizes and provides beneficial supply (along with demand) that drives a healthy market and stops the Bubble cycles.

When people think for themselves, and observe, they can actually see it in action regardless of what economic or ideological backgrounds they come from.

The kind of flipping that people seem so upset about (bid/ask arbitrage) is actually one of the more valuable functions of a market. Those are market making activities that stabilize prices, lower the bid/ask spread, drive the price to their long term values, and make it easier to buy and sell at those prices. The action of flippers does a lot of good for the market.

Bid/ask arbitrage is itself a good thing.

Now, one of the consequences of a handful of people making a lot of money off of bid/ask arbitrage and other market actions is, well, a handful of people with enormous amounts of money. That sort of concentration of wealth can cause its own problems (for example, in the real world, it is utterly corrosive to our political system). It is not clear what sorts of problems it might cause in the GW world, however – and those problems would be unrelated to flipping in any case.

Are there actual problems from people having thousands, tens of thousands of gold at their disposal? There could be, but they aren’t immediately obvious to me.

The kind of flipping that tends to cause problems is high frequency trading – essentially buying some commodity and re-selling it less than a second later. This sort of trading is destabilizing rather than stabilizing. It tends to make markets more volatile and prone to ‘micro bubbles’ as people try to make money off the run up before it pops, sometimes only a few seconds later. This sort of activity is destructive to the valuable thing a market provides (consistent, accurate prices) and can cause problems for the underlying economy as a result.

This sort of activity cannot possibly be profitable in GW2, however, since there is a fee for buying and selling in game; as a result this sort of trading is nonexistent in GW2.

Ensign.2189:

Are there actual problems from people having thousands, tens of thousands of gold at their disposal? There could be, but they aren’t immediately obvious to me.

Hoarding limited items seems like the most apparent issue to me.

While common goods do stabilize given enough time these items never do and all it takes is one market manipulator with enough bank.

Fungalfoot.7213:

Ensign.2189:

Are there actual problems from people having thousands, tens of thousands of gold at their disposal? There could be, but they aren’t immediately obvious to me.

Hoarding limited items seems like the most apparent issue to me.

While common goods do stabilize given enough time these items never do and all it takes is one market manipulator with enough bank.

^^ Exactly

With enough funds you can buy out available inventories on rare items with low supply (which have a correspondingly higher demand). I don’t want to use the word “manipulation” because then John will get on here and ask for proof (rather than providing his own empirical data).

I think that most items on the TP are not candidates for hoarding, but some clearly are. ANet never shares any data from the TP — probably for good reason, but it’s frustrating because you get the feeling it’s not “policed” very well.

The thing with limited item though is that it isn’t just wealthy players who do it. Plenty of players who isn’t “wealthy” by any stretch of the imagination can purchase and hoard these limited items.

Regardless though, in the real world, wealth disparity is an issue due to the poor lacking access to the most fundamental resources such as food/water/education, and thus have low chances of success in life, which leads to higher rates of crime, etc.

You don’t have that in GW2. The best analogy of limited-time dyes is artifacts such as the Mona Lisa. No more of it is being produced, and the actions of a few wealthy and dedicated collectors make it impossible for normal people to purchase it. But then how big of a problem is that, really? Does the lack of access to Pyre dye prevent player A from doing lvl 40 fractals?

Ursan.7846:

The thing with limited item though is that it isn’t just wealthy players who do it. Plenty of players who isn’t “wealthy” by any stretch of the imagination can purchase and hoard these limited items.

Regardless though, in the real world, wealth disparity is an issue due to the poor lacking access to the most fundamental resources such as food/water/education, and thus have low chances of success in life, which leads to higher rates of crime, etc.

You don’t have that in GW2. The best analogy of limited-time dyes is artifacts such as the Mona Lisa. No more of it is being produced, and the actions of a few wealthy and dedicated collectors make it impossible for normal people to purchase it. But then how big of a problem is that, really? Does the lack of access to Pyre dye prevent player A from doing lvl 40 fractals?

Nothing prevents you from doing lvl 40 fractals, but guild wars has always been a game of cosmetics (not progression). That’s what players spend time on, that’s what makes money in the gem store.

There is a small gear treadmill with ascended. Treadmill is too strong a word here, but something like it applies as the final tier of gear is non-trivial to obtain. This is what powers other games like WoW which has a real gear treadmill that players run on (in addition to, but to a lesser degree, cosmetics).

Legendary weapons sort of blow up the system of costmetics. This is because they can be bought and sold, including all the materials required to construct them (minus badges). Instead of being some sort of game achievement, it’s a financial exercise. That gums up the works a because it impacts non-cosmetic items. This is purely opinion.

juno.1840:

Nothing prevents you from doing lvl 40 fractals, but guild wars has always been a game of cosmetics (not progression). That’s what players spend time on, that’s what makes money in the gem store.

GW2 holds to a horizontal progression philosophy, but that doesn’t mean every player plays the game for that reason. That’s why the horizontal progression is so beautiful. Players who opt not to participate it won’t get penalized by having content gated to them.

juno.1840:

Fungalfoot.7213:

Hoarding limited items seems like the most apparent issue to me.

While common goods do stabilize given enough time these items never do and all it takes is one market manipulator with enough bank.

^^ Exactly

With enough funds you can buy out available inventories on rare items with low supply (which have a correspondingly higher demand). I don’t want to use the word “manipulation” because then John will get on here and ask for proof (rather than providing his own empirical data).

And you think such an activity is likely to be highly profitable?

Reisinger.4203:

“mostly far left extremism” <- LOL, and yes I saw you edit that out.

Resources in the market are not the same as resources obtainable elsewhere. The market is a source of obtaining resources for individuals. Control of the market, through amassing goods (such as buying out enough of a good), thus significantly limits a the ability of an individual to obtain said resources. Pretty sure that’s not how a healthy economy works.

I felt it was too inflammatory and disruptive. Sociology is essentially the art of parroting your instructor’s opinions back to him so that your GPA stays high enough to participate in the athletic program.

I think the TP is fine the way it is and doesn’t need to be changed. If you want to make more money learn to play it, it’s not that hard and not all that time consuming. You can still play the rest of the game. As for price fluctuations, don’t blame the the flippers, blame all the people willing to pay for a overpriced item or undersell a something to get immediate profit. I could buy up all the goods I set the price I want but ultimately it all boils down to the people buying them.

i am tired of this discussion. poor people complain about rich people. happens all the time.

juno.1840:

With enough funds you can buy out available inventories on rare items with low supply (which have a correspondingly higher demand). I don’t want to use the word “manipulation” because then John will get on here and ask for proof (rather than providing his own empirical data).

I think that most items on the TP are not candidates for hoarding, but some clearly are. ANet never shares any data from the TP — probably for good reason, but it’s frustrating because you get the feeling it’s not “policed” very well.

Yes, it is possible to largely control the market for some specific items, especially those that were limited to a specific period of time and no longer appear in the game world. But that is what they are there for, it’s intentional.

If Anet wanted every player to have a Legendary weapon they would have set up vendors like the Cultural items where you can buy Dawn, Twilight, etc. for 1s. They could have added F&F dyes to the drop tables of various enemies in Shiverpeaks/Ascalon where they would still drop today. They made the decision to set these things up to be limited in availability for a reason.

They are also the items with the least impact on the game itself. Having a prettier character than everyone else means nothing, except to the person playing the character. So trading in rare items becomes a sort of mini-game itself, a form of PvP where the money that changes hands is the score.

And it gives certain players something to do besides crashing the markets for more important items just for fun. It would cause a lot more disruption to more players if people trying to level weaponsmith and armorsmith were to suddenly find that prices for mithril ore have quadrupled because someone with too much money got bored.

Hell Avenger.7021:

tolunart.2095:

Amun Ra.6435:

This conversation has been going longer before any news of the update was announced. I assume you and anyone else suggesting the same are fairly new to the forums.

You assume wrong, I’ve been active on the forums for a very long time. I’m referring to this thread, it’s one of three or four that have been posted in the last two days.

Exactly, all of sudden several threads poped up out of the blue.WAIT, not out of the blue. COF farmers are crying, because all of sudden they cannot afford to buy stuffs anymore while others can.

This is like YOU NERF THIEF, everyone SHOULD BE NERFED TOOOO

I’m afraid i think you are correct.

John Smith.4610:

Except for the part about my feelings (I just got back from crying in a corner), everything Ensign says is correct.

People take part in an MMO world in different ways, and just with your response John it would seem that ArenaNet does not have an issue with so called power traders (at least that are not exploiting, etc to do so) which if true is a good thing.

Your competitor SOE has talked about some of this with their new game coming up, and one of the things they bring up is making a game where a player is able to spend their time in the world the way they want doing the things they enjoy doing in it.

As they pointed out. Some socialize and level very slowly, others spend most of their time crafting, while there are also those who play the in game markets, and their goal is to create something that has potential for all of those different types of play styles.

In otherwords as the developer they understand that people are going to find their own fun doing various things within their games world, and they want to not interfere with all that as much as possible.

In my experience of MMO’s (going back to EQ1) I have played the biggest complainers about any form of in-game trading there was (East Commons tunnel anyone?) are those who expect to obtain something from others for very little of their own effort.

I have always looked at them as trying to bring some form of “Socialist Reform” to a games economy, and when a game tries to allow for a free market structure allowing players to dictate and set value and worth among each other its just dead wrong.

I have been very lazy when it comes to this game and trying to make money, and for my time spent in it having 120g makes me happy even if its nothing compared to what others may have, and if those others took part in earning money through the TP I can care less. More power to them.

I have not spent time in this games market as I have just been uninterested at the moment due to other things I have been enjoying in the game, real life, etc.

The biggest thing that I see to impede the process though is the inability to sell below merchant prices, as it sets a base that can be high on some items which you don’t want when your goal is to make quick coinage.

See as someone else said you don’t make quick money by selling/reselling and blowing the price sky high off the bat. You find the stuff that goes fast that everyone wants and is easy to come by (harvesting, farming, buying and reselling) and you dump the market.

The faster and cheaper you get it the faster you make a profit by simply marking it up a small %, and you don’t worry about that other reseller who decides to buy all your 1000’s of 3 copper items to try to make 6 copper each on, because when you know what your doing you know to get a fresh supply back up fast and still undercut them from what they just bought. You make fast quick profits, they keep buying up large chunks of your stock (along with others who just need it) that they get stuck with longer and longer hoping to turn an even larger profit. Plus, if they undercut you its no biggie, because now they are losing money.

TBH though those of us doing this would actually be helping a larger chunk of the player base as we would be getting stuff up on the TP at a lower price, and sure we would still have a lot more money than most players, but isn’t that the issue here?

Those who want to restrict the ability can’t stand others having more money, because they chose to spend X hours running dungeons instead of X hours on the TP, or those who just can’t stand that someone else may feel their items are worth X amount as its out of their reach yet many, many, many other players have no issue buying them for that so they continue to sell for the higher price keeping it out of the hands of those who feel that it must only be worth X lower amount, because that’s all they are willing to pay and since they cannot or will not pay X higher amount the seller in some way just needs to be punished.

Honestly, with how many people complain so much about how poor they are maybe you all should ban together and ask ArenaNet to introduce the first (???) “Welfare” system into an MMO game, but TBH all the complainers would still be unhappy every time they got their “Tyrian Welfare Check”, because there still would always be those who had more than they did, and they still wouldn’t be able to afford those rare items they drool over.

The real source of the problem isn’t powertraders on the TP, it’s poor, ignorant people that complain ….

Maybe they should simply not give poor people access to the market and make them farm everything so they can’t complain about ‘dishonest people stealing from them on the market’.

Obtena.7952:

The real source of the problem isn’t powertraders on the TP, it’s poor, ignorant people that complain ….

Complaining is one thing (and is totally fine), but the air of moral superiority that some people put on is pretty obnoxious.

“These people paying for convenience? OBVIOUSLY getting swindled out of their money by flippers.”

Seriously people. Many people knowingly pay for convenience, they don’t need you to patronize them.

Lisa.6102:

Hell Avenger.7021:

tolunart.2095:

Amun Ra.6435:

This conversation has been going longer before any news of the update was announced. I assume you and anyone else suggesting the same are fairly new to the forums.

You assume wrong, I’ve been active on the forums for a very long time. I’m referring to this thread, it’s one of three or four that have been posted in the last two days.

Exactly, all of sudden several threads poped up out of the blue.WAIT, not out of the blue. COF farmers are crying, because all of sudden they cannot afford to buy stuffs anymore while others can.

This is like YOU NERF THIEF, everyone SHOULD BE NERFED TOOOO

I’m afraid i think you are correct.

I made the very same arguments about CoF p1 farming. That it was not good for the game, not my personal situation, but the game as a whole. It was a similar situation where the profit potential was noticeably disproportional to anything else in the game (ofc except trading). This historically creates more negative effects than positive ones.

A lot of people seem to forget this is a game where the main objective is for players to have fun. They seem to equate things to the real world when the two are not the same and nor should they be.

Essence Snow.3194:

I made the very same arguments about CoF p1 farming. That it was not good for the game, not my personal situation, but the game as a whole. It was a similar situation where the profit potential was noticeably disproportional to anything else in the game (ofc except trading). This historically creates more negative effects than positive ones.

There’s a huge difference between CoF 1 and Flipping though. CoF 1 creates gold, and adds it to the economy, which potentially creates inflation (whether it actually does or not, no one here knows). Also people doing CoF 1 isn’t doing a “service” to anyone else, while flippers do.

Objectively speaking, they are two very different issues.

Ursan.7846:

Essence Snow.3194:

I made the very same arguments about CoF p1 farming. That it was not good for the game, not my personal situation, but the game as a whole. It was a similar situation where the profit potential was noticeably disproportional to anything else in the game (ofc except trading). This historically creates more negative effects than positive ones.

There’s a huge difference between CoF 1 and Flipping though. CoF 1 creates gold, and adds it to the economy, which potentially creates inflation (whether it actually does or not, no one here knows). Also people doing CoF 1 isn’t doing a “service” to anyone else, while flippers do.

Objectively speaking, they are two very different issues.

They both are means of players to ascertain disproportionate amounts of wealth over any other in game activities. Inflation (macro) is not the only problem the economy faces.

Essence Snow.3194:

They both are means of players to ascertain disproportionate amounts of wealth over any other in game activities. Inflation (macro) is not the only problem the economy faces.

Inflation is a far more significant (an actual economic) problem then Joe not being able to afford dyes and skins Peter can.

Michael Fejervary.8576:

long manipulative post

hide spoiler

People take part in an MMO world in different ways, and just with your response John it would seem that ArenaNet does not have an issue with so called power traders (at least that are not exploiting, etc to do so) which if true is a good thing.

Your competitor SOE has talked about some of this with their new game coming up, and one of the things they bring up is making a game where a player is able to spend their time in the world the way they want doing the things they enjoy doing in it.

As they pointed out. Some socialize and level very slowly, others spend most of their time crafting, while there are also those who play the in game markets, and their goal is to create something that has potential for all of those different types of play styles.

In otherwords as the developer they understand that people are going to find their own fun doing various things within their games world, and they want to not interfere with all that as much as possible.

In my experience of MMO’s (going back to EQ1) I have played the biggest complainers about any form of in-game trading there was (East Commons tunnel anyone?) are those who expect to obtain something from others for very little of their own effort.

I have always looked at them as trying to bring some form of “Socialist Reform” to a games economy, and when a game tries to allow for a free market structure allowing players to dictate and set value and worth among each other its just dead wrong.

I have been very lazy when it comes to this game and trying to make money, and for my time spent in it having 120g makes me happy even if its nothing compared to what others may have, and if those others took part in earning money through the TP I can care less. More power to them.

I have not spent time in this games market as I have just been uninterested at the moment due to other things I have been enjoying in the game, real life, etc.

The biggest thing that I see to impede the process though is the inability to sell below merchant prices, as it sets a base that can be high on some items which you don’t want when your goal is to make quick coinage.

See as someone else said you don’t make quick money by selling/reselling and blowing the price sky high off the bat. You find the stuff that goes fast that everyone wants and is easy to come by (harvesting, farming, buying and reselling) and you dump the market.

The faster and cheaper you get it the faster you make a profit by simply marking it up a small %, and you don’t worry about that other reseller who decides to buy all your 1000’s of 3 copper items to try to make 6 copper each on, because when you know what your doing you know to get a fresh supply back up fast and still undercut them from what they just bought. You make fast quick profits, they keep buying up large chunks of your stock (along with others who just need it) that they get stuck with longer and longer hoping to turn an even larger profit. Plus, if they undercut you its no biggie, because now they are losing money.

TBH though those of us doing this would actually be helping a larger chunk of the player base as we would be getting stuff up on the TP at a lower price, and sure we would still have a lot more money than most players, but isn’t that the issue here?

Those who want to restrict the ability can’t stand others having more money, because they chose to spend X hours running dungeons instead of X hours on the TP, or those who just can’t stand that someone else may feel their items are worth X amount as its out of their reach yet many, many, many other players have no issue buying them for that so they continue to sell for the higher price keeping it out of the hands of those who feel that it must only be worth X lower amount, because that’s all they are willing to pay and since they cannot or will not pay X higher amount the seller in some way just needs to be punished.

Honestly, with how many people complain so much about how poor they are maybe you all should ban together and ask ArenaNet to introduce the first (???) “Welfare” system into an MMO game, but TBH all the complainers would still be unhappy every time they got their “Tyrian Welfare Check”, because there still would always be those who had more than they did, and they still wouldn’t be able to afford those rare items they drool over.

wow….
I dunno where you came from but it doesn’t sound like it meshes very well with the Roots of this game. It’s no wonder your own characterization is “being lazy”… Maybe it just wasn’t meant to be? You don’t change that though by tearing down this game’s casual player base.

mtpelion.4562:

Reisinger.4203:

“mostly far left extremism” <- LOL, and yes I saw you edit that out.

Resources in the market are not the same as resources obtainable elsewhere. The market is a source of obtaining resources for individuals. Control of the market, through amassing goods (such as buying out enough of a good), thus significantly limits a the ability of an individual to obtain said resources. Pretty sure that’s not how a healthy economy works.

I felt it was too inflammatory and disruptive. Sociology is essentially the art of parroting your instructor’s opinions back to him so that your GPA stays high enough to participate in the athletic program.

If you’re going to get into semantics and completely disregard a field due to what you’ve seen in your own, (probably) poor-quality post-secondary institution, then why shouldn’t we disregard your views as well? Why bother replying at all as what you’ve said in this latest post has nothing to do with this thread?

A sociological view on this economy isn’t some sort of speculative, subjective professor-vomit. If so, a lot of the users that have posted on this thread must be very attentive during their sociology classes.

The point: it’s not a fringe “Occupy X” mentality to have a shared disapproval of concentrated capital in the market.

Ursan.7846:

Essence Snow.3194:

They both are means of players to ascertain disproportionate amounts of wealth over any other in game activities. Inflation (macro) is not the only problem the economy faces.

Inflation is a far more significant (an actual economic) problem then Joe not being able to afford dyes and skins Peter can.

Yes, because wealth disparity has never been a significant economic problem before.

When 2 million Joes cannot afford dyes and skins that 100 Peters can solely based on one activity, there is a problem. Micro spills over into macro.

Essence Snow.3194:

Yes, because wealth disparity has never been a significant economic problem before.

In real-life? No, I never said that. It’s obviously a problem in real-life.

But when using real-life examples for analogies, one must keep in mind why inequality is a bad thing in real life.

Poverty in real life has very adverse effects on the population, such as health issues, lower productivity, high crime rates, restricted access to education and the opportunities it represents, etc… Wealth inequality leads to more poverty, since the poor does not have the basic resources in order to secure a better future for their children, who have a high possibility of leading to more of the same.

None of that really applies to a virtual world. You don’t have to dedicate a significant amount of your time to sustenance (there is none.) There is nothing that bars you from obtaining skills in order to succeed (Nothing is preventing you from Flipping, or CoF 1ing.). Lack of money does not impact your “productivity” because the BiS cannot be bought and exotics are reasonably inexpensive.

If you sincerely think that wealth inequality in a video game has the same amount of negative impact on the population as wealth inequality in real-life, you’re severely misinformed.

^ That’s true enough, Ursan, but we should also remember that for many players, they play games to get AWAY from that kind of inequality. Video game worlds are supposed to be a place where you can be someone you aren’t, where the playing field is (more or less) equal and everybody can have fun. If you’re someone who’s stuck in a dead-end job where people who earn much more than you can basically treat you like crap all day, do you really want to come home and log into a world where wealthy players are also doing their best to concentrate wealth in their own hands so they can also look down on you and show off all the nice things you’ll never have?

And on the flipside, if you’re a poor player in real life who wants to become rich in-game so you can gloat over poorer people, shame on you for missing the point. :P

Zaxares.5419:

^ That’s true enough, Ursan, but we should also remember that for many players, they play games to get AWAY from that kind of inequality. Video game worlds are supposed to be a place where you can be someone you aren’t, where the playing field is (more or less) equal and everybody can have fun. If you’re someone who’s stuck in a dead-end job where people who earn much more than you can basically treat you like crap all day, do you really want to come home and log into a world where wealthy players are also doing their best to concentrate wealth in their own hands so they can also look down on you and show off all the nice things you’ll never have?

Serious question. Does others’ show of wealth really bother you that much?

If he’s actively shoving the fact that he has a ton of wealth in-game down your throat , then you are most likely a far, far better man than he is.

If he’s not but if you’re still somehow “inferior” (you’re not. In a 1v1 you will have the same stats and you will probably kick his kitten . Do you feel inferior to some dumb jock who wears a ton of bling?), then there is absolutely nothing preventing you from applying yourself and working the TP for money also.

Zaxares.5419:

^ That’s true enough, Ursan, but we should also remember that for many players, they play games to get AWAY from that kind of inequality. Video game worlds are supposed to be a place where you can be someone you aren’t, where the playing field is (more or less) equal and everybody can have fun. If you’re someone who’s stuck in a dead-end job where people who earn much more than you can basically treat you like crap all day, do you really want to come home and log into a world where wealthy players are also doing their best to concentrate wealth in their own hands so they can also look down on you and show off all the nice things you’ll never have?

And on the flipside, if you’re a poor player in real life who wants to become rich in-game so you can gloat over poorer people, shame on you for missing the point. :P

There’s always inequality in every single game, you can’t get away from it.

In GW2 inequality is purely cosmetic. Owning mountains of gold simply means that you’ll look better than someone else. That is fully intentional design.

Few people will ever reach the top sPvP or WvW level. Few people will unlock certain skins. Few people will have certain minis. Few people will earn all achievements.

Should we start handicapping decent sPvP players because you want to get away from situations where someone is better than you? A certain movie where that’s exactly what people do comes to mind.

Ursan.7846:

Serious question. Does others’ show of wealth really bother you that much?

If he’s actively shoving the fact that he has a ton of wealth in-game down your throat , then you are most likely a far, far better man than he is.

If he’s not but if you’re still somehow “inferior” (you’re not. In a 1v1 you will have the same stats and you will probably kick his kitten . Do you feel inferior to some dumb jock who wears a ton of bling?), then there is absolutely nothing preventing you from applying yourself and working the TP for money also.

Me? Not in the slightest. I don’t want any of the current Legendaries because they don’t suit my character aesthetics, and likewise, I see no need to spend 20g (or whatever it is now) on Abyss/Celestial when there are cheaper dyes that will give me a similar effect. I really couldn’t care less about what other people are using; all I care about is whether I like the look I have on my character.

What I DO take objection to, however, is some players who insist that ultra-rare appearances should remain ultra-rare just because they don’t want other players looking like them. I’m a big believer in allowing all players the opportunity to access the same look via a playstyle that they enjoy.

That’s why I applauded ANet’s system of giving out the Fervid Censer and Sclerite backpack via the meta-achievement, because you could access said skin by doing a variety of activities. (And why I sympathise with players complaining about BotFW because it largely forces you to do JP-style activities to get the Gift of Quartz.)

As to TP flipping, I guess I could probably make it work for me if I REALLY wanted to, but it’s not an activity I enjoy. Since I’m pretty happy with my income in GW2, I don’t think this will change in the future either.

My original post above was mainly in support of players who DO like the effects provided by things like the Legendaries or skins locked behind RNG, but in order to afford them, have to grind gold farms like CoF P1 or play the Trading Post, which they may not enjoy, in order to get them. Note that my solution would involve more avenues to gain desired skins rather than “nerfing” the TP or something similar, however.

AntiGw.9367

Should we start handicapping decent sPvP players because you want to get away from situations where someone is better than you?

Certainly not! But PvP is a totally different scenario to PvE. There, the rewards for participation is basically the visceral sensation of defeating your opponents, knowing that you’re better than they are. I don’t think this would really be improved if you were wearing fancy armor and wielding a Legendary; you’d get the same satisfaction out of beating the crap out of the enemy team with basic weapons and armor skins.

Why do people keep referring to taking the spread as arbitrage? It is not that at all.

The kind of trading we see on the AH is extremely basic, even the kind of rubbish day traders often use (totally spurious TA et al) is more complex than what is going on here.

There will be precious few running actual economic/arbitrage models (probably none at all).

Flippers are looking at a website and/or a basic spread sheet and simply trying to capture the spread. They are tying up capital, taking a risk in doing so, competeing against other players trying to achieve the same thing and they are providing liquidity to the market place whilst doing so. There is nothing at all wrong with that.