Guild Wars 2

The hazard with one-shot fractals is that players will start kicking players who don’t know how to do the one-shot. If they make a mistake, the entire party is dragged down.

If a one-shot fractal worked more like the dolphin run, where one competent player could carry a team, it’d be far less hazardous, but that might mean there’s little chance of failure, so not drawing a one-shot is wasting your time.

(Again, part of the problem is that players are rewarded equally for each fractal, no matter how difficult it is.)

Overview
PvE based ideas for fractals or in future, fractal type encounters. Mainly focusing on gear/item progression, rewards, and players time in game spent more on harder content than farming gold.

Goal
I really enjoy GW2 and its gameplay/look, however what a player spends his time doing seems to be more efficient at less challenging things quickly, Hopefully find ways to make hard and fun content the best way a player can spend his time (should be enjoy PvE).

Proposal Functionality
I will do some bullet points to keep post size down, if you want more info I can expand

• Quicker and more rewarding trash mobs, so players are less likley/more happy too clear them, this will make new players learn the dungeons easier. (fractals are perfect model for older ones)
• focusing dungeons to a time frame at or around 1 hour and having fractals/fractal type dungeons be perhaps longer for a more serious PvE player.
• Players have no trouble getting the materials for ascended gear that are account bound, therefore gold is the main resource for endgame gear, This doesn’t directly relate to fractals but the point centers around the fact that gold is best attained in easy/quick farming not harder content.
• If gold based acquisition of gear is the endgame goal of arenanet (which can be okay, although I feel PvE lovers dislike this formula) Then having endgame (hard/challenging) dungeons and bosses reward gold quickest for time spend should be involved. If players log in and want to progress there character, they can either have fun doing difficult dungeons, or grind gold, the 2 should be the same if gear is attained through gold.

Potential Risks

• With a “progression” type gear system (which has not quite been your formula so far) be sure to keep players who invested time into legendary weapons in mind, making an item obsolete is a dangerous balance in MMO’s because of a player’s time sink being lost (you could upgrade legendaries along with gear perhaps, if not you an utilize the mystic forge to bring those legendaries along to current endgame level)
• The rate at wich gear scales is tricky, too fast and people get left behind, too slow and It ends up (in my opinion) that 85% of players see no reason for 5% stat increase with ascended and are ignoring fractals altogether
• if gear doesn’t scale, Cosemetics can only go so far, especially considering a lot of players are resentful that their HOM achievements are being sold on the gem store

I hope i wasnt too harsh with this post but i love GW2 and would like to see it’s PvE succeed, I feel like the gameplay, content creation rate, boss fights, overall look and feel of game is amazing yet it falls short in the “formula” department (how gear scaling and time a player spends in game work, Mainly in PvE [arenanet does pvp very well])

I can bet this has been touched upon 100 times but just in case:

Make fractal achievements (like 100 fractals done) etc reward fractal skin boxes where you pick your skin. RNG is bad, especially with fractals. There should be sure rewards for those who aren’t blessed by RNG star.

Nike.2631:

The Lost Witch.7601:

Nike.2631:

How would people react to “One try” fractals – fractals with maybe a timer or other obvious fail condition, and if you do fail you are moved on to another fractal in the same ‘length tier’ (the failed fractal does not count towards getting three before doing a boss fractal).

Well, another problem with this would be that players can’t reliably learn by failing if they can’t repeat the challenge. So they would only get to learn the fractal from:

• Going with a team that knows how to do this.

or

• Watching videos on youtube.

Leaving out what in my eyes is the most interesting and rewarding type of learning:

• By trying out strategies we develop ourselves.

You get to learn every time it pops. The point on these is that they be exciting – a chance to burn through that tier (comparatively) fast if you can figure it out. People will review outside strategy sources, but you’d still have hands-on opportunity to wrestle with it, and in you fail you move on quickly and look forward to your next attempt.

Well, that’s just the thing. We get to learn every time it pops, and only until we fail.
What if I play fractals just a few times a month? Chances are I don’t see that fractal for months. I would have to resort to youtubing it, for I can’t reliably get that fractal. (I did mention that I’ve only seen the thaumanova fractal once, when it came out, right?)

Also, if I fail, I want to think about what went wrong, and then do it right next time. I absolutely love strategizing, to me it is the most fun part of the game. Not being able to retry is taking away most of the strategy here. I am most likely not visiting the same fractal with the same team, so there is no reason to discuss what went wrong/what to do right.

At some point in time, I’ll find a teammember who knows how to do it, tells us to watch this video, which we’ll do, because we’ve only got one shot and we don’t want to make him angry by failing because we’re stubborn. We succeed and I have never had the joy of figuring it out myself.

Oh, and once a strategy is figured out, we’ll use that exact one every time, because we may fail if we use another one. Making it rather dull for players that do fractals often.

Some things are just not suited for fractals, like timed jumping puzzles. I believe we should just keep them seperate.

The Lost Witch.7601:

Well, that’s just the thing. We get to learn every time it pops, and only until we fail.
What if I play fractals just a few times a month? Chances are I don’t see that fractal for months. I would have to resort to youtubing it, for I can’t reliably get that fractal. (I did mention that I’ve only seen the thaumanova fractal once, when it came out, right?)

I’m not sure that how often a player logs in (or doesn’t) should matter. You learn at the rate you play. If you don’t play much, you don’t learn quickly. This is true when comparing any two rates of play. If anything, infrequent players are much more highly rewarded, since they end up eligible for the daily reward every time they play, compared to someone who does 2-3 runs back to back in a single session.

Also, if I fail, I want to think about what went wrong, and then do it right next time. I absolutely love strategizing, to me it is the most fun part of the game.

Then you may be the exact sort of gamer this sinks its hooks into. “Please come back more often than you would otherwise for another try” is a lot stronger proposal than “beat your head against this till you win in a single sitting… and then never feel the need to come back…”

One-try’s are as much about the longevity of the experience as they are the thrill of a limited window of opportunity. Its like having a sale .

Not being able to retry is taking away most of the strategy here. I am most likely not visiting the same fractal with the same team, so there is no reason to discuss what went wrong/what to do right.

Having clear ‘starting line’ before pulling the trigger would give everyone a chance to talk it through before launching it. Not sure what to do? Don’t go over to where the X/5 counter is at.

At some point in time, I’ll find a teammember who knows how to do it, tells us to watch this video, which we’ll do, because we’ve only got one shot and we don’t want to make him angry by failing because we’re stubborn. We succeed and I have never had the joy of figuring it out myself.

You can either put them first or you first. Given that ‘blowing it’ ideally costs you all of 3-5 minutes, and possibly requires the expert to have failed as much as anyone else (if one wins we all win scenarios) I’d like to think we won’t have too much anticipation paralysis .

Oh, and once a strategy is figured out, we’ll use that exact one every time, because we may fail if we use another one. Making it rather dull for players that do fractals often.

And how is that different from all of them when PUGing now? One shots might not be better in this regard, but I don’t see how they are worse.

Some things are just not suited for fractals, like timed jumping puzzles. I believe we should just keep them separate.

Perhaps . But I’d like to explore more than just new coats of paint thrown over the same combat-centric expectations!

Nike.2631:

I’m not sure that how often a player logs in (or doesn’t) should matter. You learn at the rate you play. If you don’t play much, you don’t learn quickly. This is true when comparing any two rates of play. If anything, infrequent players are much more highly rewarded, since they end up eligible for the daily reward every time they play, compared to someone who does 2-3 runs back to back in a single session.

If the last time I’ve seen a particular fractal is more than 2 months ago, chances are that I don’t remember it vividly enough to come up with the winning strategy this time around.

Then you may be the exact sort of gamer this sinks its hooks into. “Please come back more often than you would otherwise for another try” is a lot stronger proposal than “beat your head against this till you win in a single sitting… and then never feel the need to come back…”

If I could come back more often to try, I might. But I can’t, because fractals are randomly picked. Besides, I would get totally bored by doing the other fractals in between so often before I could finally get another shot at this one.

And how is that different from all of them when PUGing now? One shots might not be better in this regard, but I don’t see how they are worse.

I rarely really PUG, often 3-4 guildmembers and maybe a pug or two. The guildmembers differ every time though. We don’t always take the same approach. But if we would only get one chance, we might just take the safe route every time. (As in, reset the swamp until we get the same wisp set-up, or bring the same characters we brought last time – stealth for the dredge, reflection for the harpies etc. – without trying to tank the dredge or bring stability and succeed otherwise)

Perhaps . But I’d like to explore more than just new coats of paint thrown over the same combat-centric expectations!

I believe there is a lot more to explore within combat. There is plenty of untapped potential for different kinds of combat (see some examples that I wrote in the past few pages).

When I ask my guildies if they want to join me in fractals, they know it’s going to be mostly fighting. That is what they are willing to sign up for. Some puzzles, but mostly fighting.

And since most of the things we can do in this game are combat moves, that is where we can expect the most depth. The trick is to make combat scenarios different from one another, so that different skills become more or less effective.

If we move towards challenges that don’t really require combat, I’m afraid they would soon become one-dimensional. Since the challenge would basically be the same for these encounters: jump on time/jump far enough/craft as fast as you can. Whereas combat can have more depth, because we have more options available. Combat is what we build our characters for, why we spend a lot of time tweaking builds, finding whatever gear and build suits us best. Fractals is the place where combat becomes the most difficult. High level fractals are the place to be for combat enthousiasts.

There is a place for one-try puzzles though. We already have them in guild missions, bounties and puzzles. I just don’t think that fractals is the right place for them.

The Lost Witch.7601:

If we move towards challenges that don’t really require combat, I’m afraid they would soon become one-dimensional. Since the challenge would basically be the same for these encounters: jump on time/jump far enough/craft as fast as you can. Whereas combat can have more depth, because we have more options available. Combat is what we build our characters for, why we spend a lot of time tweaking builds, finding whatever gear and build suits us best. Fractals is the place where combat becomes the most difficult. High level fractals are the place to be for combat enthousiasts.

There is a place for one-try puzzles though. We already have them in guild missions, bounties and puzzles. I just don’t think that fractals is the right place for them.

Agree with this so much. This is one of the biggest issues i have with the new fractals and the aether path. Too many puzzles. They shouldnt be in dungeons/fractals. Puzzle mechanics in fights are fine (seals on cliffside, agony rotating walls in aetherblade, buckets in dredge, collapsing floor in thaumanova atc). But the pure puzzles within fights without using combat and inbetween fights are just boring (barrage phases in mai trin, weapon test in molten, various puzzles in aether fractal and aetherpath in TA). If a combat element was added which allowed the speeding up of these timegated puzzles then I wouldnt have a problem with them.

Proposal Overview
Allow us to buy ascended gear using Pristine Fractal Relics
- Ascended Weapons
- Ascended Armor
- Ascended Amulet
- Ascended Accessories
- Ascended Rings
- Ascended Back Item (basic skin only)

Goal of Proposal
People who enjoy fractals but dislike crafting may eventually be able to fully outfit their characters with full ascended gear.

Proposal Functionality
At the moment, Ascended Weapons and Ascended Armor can only be acquired via tedious grind crafting or extremely rare chance from loot drop.

This will add another good alternative for players who enjoy fractals.

Associated Risks
No risks involved. Everyone will be happy.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

I am pretty sure Izzy responded to this question a few months ago. I will check with him.

Chris

It’s been almost a week now. Nothing?
:(

Guys,

Did the Fractal weapon boxes ever get added? If not, I think those should get added before any CDI stuff is implemented. If they did get added, then cool deal

They were advertised in the fractured patch preview and then we later found out they were for fractals 51+ so they are currently not in the game. So yes they should add them into the loot tables ASAP.

My apologies for adding a general proposal so near to the end, but this is something that has driven myself and other members of my guild a bit crazy, and I just have time now to post it.

Proposal Overview
Add repair anvils to each fractal instance

Goal of Proposal
Encourage groups that desire it to challenge and improve themselves by pushing against their current skill/gear limit, by allowing repairs within fractal instances.

Proposal Functionality
For my guild, fractals started to get really interesting and fun when we started to hit the upper limits of what our group AR/skill level could handle. We had repeated wipes on certain boss fights, but with each attempt, everyone improved and we got closer to beating them. This was really exciting and satisfying, until armor started to break, and we had no easy way to repair for another go, especially as we were on fractal 3. Despite wipes, we actually otherwise having a pretty good time, and didn’t want to just quit.

Currently, 4/5 party members in fractals can repair their armor using alt-F4 to disconnect, then rejoin their group after repairing. The instance owner cannot. I guess most groups get around this by bringing spare gear, or by purchasing repair canisters. This all seems unnecessarily awkward, and can give the impression that the game is pushing you towards the cash shop.

I think this is also exacerbated now that the longer/harder fractals come at the end of a run. Non-fractal-pros, like myself, may not realize that their group is running with low AR until they hit Fractal 3 or the boss fractal. I feel like the game should facilitate giving such groups the opportunity to overcome the challenge, rather than adding more layers of frustration. If tougher, more challenging fights are to come (yes please!), then I think adding within-fractal repairs will make meeting those challenges more fun.

Associated Risks
If I recall correctly from the pre-release days, armor repair is meant to act as both a gold sink, which it would continue to do here, and a mechanism by which the game signals to players that they are hitting an upper limit as to what their gear or skill can handle. Adding repair stations to each fractal instance might make this signal less strong, such that players can just keep repairing, and throwing themselves at content without adjusting their strategy.

Rylar.4807:

Currently, 4/5 party members in fractals can repair their armor using alt-F4 to disconnect, then rejoin their group after repairing. The instance owner cannot. I guess most groups get around this by bringing spare gear, or by purchasing repair canisters. This all seems unnecessarily awkward, and can give the impression that the game is pushing you towards the cash shop.

This is wrong.
From the moment they allowed us to reconnect inside fractal, the instance owner could alt-f4 to repair (as long as someone stays inside the instance, of course). At the very beginning, I think you had to alt-f4, only going back to character selection didn’t work.

It is now fixed. As long as the instance owner doesn’t switch characters, he can go back to Character selection, then login again. He can then repair before entering the fractals again.

The problem with placing anvils in fractal maps is that, unlike the other dungeons, fractals don’t have waypoints, so going back to the beginning of the fractal to get to the anvil could be more time consuming than just reloging.

Not saying that putting anvils is a bad idea, but you’d need more than just putting them (for ex putting multiple waypoints on each map), or they won’t be used much.

Yeah, and some fractals, like snowblind, you can’t run back to the beginning anyways. I can’t see it making more sense to let you teleport to the hub without resetting things – I imagine that would add a host of other trade-offs, like access to vendors mid-dungeon and such.

It would be cool if Fractal rewards, like the relics, could be combined with tokens from other dungeons in order to get cooler prettier gear. Then people could farm combos of old dungeons and lower fractal levels (assuming they have no AR) in order to get special skins. It could improve the reward, get people into old dungeons, and provide a new (updated) path to acquire skins.
For example, instead of just 180 tokens from CoF for gloves, you instead need 180 CoF tokens, 180 SE tokens, 500 Fractal Relics and 20 Ectos. Now people are doing multiple dungeons and fractals to get gear, and doing multiple steps to get a piece of armor that is more unique and challenging to acquire. I think that would boost FoTM for casual players and get them interested in it as well because gear is attainable for casual players through relics.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

haviz.1340:

“Lore people” will play fractals once or twice and move on to roleplay in divinity’s reach while more dedicated players will get bored because it will lack any sort of challenge except bigger numbers.

What should be done is to severely decrease the number of scales, the difference between 1 and 9 is trivial. Introduce complex mechanics for higher tiers (not just numbers) and make those god kitten cinematics skippable. Obligatory reset included.

I am so tempted to be hyper critical on this post but I won’t, as it isn’t this single comment that has been frustrating but instead a culmination of posts in the CDI.

Suffice to say this post emphasizes why this CDI has been pretty good and not great. In my opinion there have been to many posts that have either not been well thought out or the poster has not taken the time to get educated in the discussion before putting pen to paper, and more specifically too insular in terms of goal resolution instead of thinking about the broader audience.

I will leave it at that.

I am still interested in continued discussion around your boss/encounter mechanic ideas, Rewards and ways in which the fractals could be evolved moving forward to provide new types of challenge.

Cheers,

Chris

IIRC, fractals has been the answer to us hard-core PvE dungeons runners as “The toughest content ever!” So I don’t find it unreasonable for those of us that are better at completing these tasks than 90% of the community; to ask for improvements such as better rewards and an actual challenge.

I means seriously you just basically called Haviz uneducated about fractals when hes done dredge at lvl 80 (post reset) and yet Anet devs struggle with aetherblade at lvl 30. I know you guys aren’t good at your own game but come on, at least take the word of someone who does a bit more serious.

Dempsey.8760:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

haviz.1340:

“Lore people” will play fractals once or twice and move on to roleplay in divinity’s reach while more dedicated players will get bored because it will lack any sort of challenge except bigger numbers.

What should be done is to severely decrease the number of scales, the difference between 1 and 9 is trivial. Introduce complex mechanics for higher tiers (not just numbers) and make those god kitten cinematics skippable. Obligatory reset included.

I am so tempted to be hyper critical on this post but I won’t, as it isn’t this single comment that has been frustrating but instead a culmination of posts in the CDI.

Suffice to say this post emphasizes why this CDI has been pretty good and not great. In my opinion there have been to many posts that have either not been well thought out or the poster has not taken the time to get educated in the discussion before putting pen to paper, and more specifically too insular in terms of goal resolution instead of thinking about the broader audience.

I will leave it at that.

I am still interested in continued discussion around your boss/encounter mechanic ideas, Rewards and ways in which the fractals could be evolved moving forward to provide new types of challenge.

Cheers,

Chris

IIRC, fractals has been the answer to us hard-core PvE dungeons runners as “The toughest content ever!” So I don’t find it unreasonable for those of us that are better at completing these tasks than 90% of the community; to ask for improvements such as better rewards and an actual challenge.

I means seriously you just basically called Haviz uneducated about fractals when hes done dredge at lvl 80 (post reset) and yet Anet devs struggle with aetherblade at lvl 30. I know you guys aren’t good at your own game but come on, at least take the word of someone who does a bit more serious.

you miss his point, and it wasnt totally directed at haviz, he even said that in the post.

Point is, dont say X shouldnt exist, because this content is only made for this subset of players. The content is made for all players. You may like doing fractals at 50, some people like doing them at 10, some have been at 20-30 for months. While its good that fractals give something for the hardcore, it doesnt automatically have to have no appeal to any other player.

and yeah, if you want more development time, you got to hope they find a way to make some part of fractals appeal to more people.

Proposal Overview
Queen’s Gauntlet “boasts” in fractals, in the form of Forced+Optional modifiers.

Goal of Proposal
Mods would increase variety within fractals at all levels of difficulty, as well as add another axis for balance and customization of the gameplay experience. This also gives an outlet for reworking Agony to be more satisfying to overcome.

Proposal Functionality
When selecting the fractal level, you can also select any number of Mods. These Mods remain in effect until full completion, as opposed to a single zone. The gain for the players is (as usual) better rewards.

As a secondary function, Mods could be added as scaling difficulty modifiers to fractals to replace agony. Each tier would apply a randomized Mod to the Fractal, scaled to the current fractal level. Agony Resist would reduce the individual effect the mods have on the player. These Mods stack as the player increases in Tier, eventually having to deal with multiple deadly modifiers at the same time, instead of a single Agony mechanic.

Associated Risks
Boast Preplanning: The inherent randomness of Fractal selection should prevent the players from planning which Mods to use on which runs, but a silver cost for adding Mods could help with this as well, creating a goldsink and preventing players from adding a Mod, starting a fractal, then bailing on it if they don’t like the fractal given.

Information Paralysis: Having too many modifiers in place at one time could cause unintended frustration, as opposed to fair challenge. I suggest Forced modifiers be very simple in nature.
Examples:
(Enemy Tier=Normal, Veteran, Elite, Champion, Legendary, Etc)

“[Enemy Tier] Enemies apply [Agony] Stacks of [Condition] on hit”

“Conditions from [Enemy Tier] Enemies last [Agony]% longer

“Fractal Level increased by #” (intensifying the other mods!)

Thank you for your time devs.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Thanks for the feedback Spoj. Personally I am not a huge fan of puzzles but I tend to be a bit of an impatient gamer who just likes to smash things. What does everyone else think?

Chris

I’m a big fan of puzzles as content, but then I grew up with King’s Quest and I was the first in my house to finish Myst and its sequel Riven. So, I’m biased

I think, as you said before, Fractals or the world of Tyria at large is big enough for this sort of thing. There is the one treasure cave (the one with the Tears), though it needs some more checks on bugginess . . .

If you want to add Fractals like that, perhaps side attractions to the actual “vanilla” Fractals experience? Such as allowing a solo or small group puzzle instance. I could sketch out a few, or at least make a proper proposal post soon if it’s of interest to add them and not impact them directly into the standard Fractals run.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

I can bet this has been touched upon 100 times but just in case:

Make fractal achievements (like 100 fractals done) etc reward fractal skin boxes where you pick your skin. RNG is bad, especially with fractals. There should be sure rewards for those who aren’t blessed by RNG star.

Since we’re reiterating things a bit here, I want to repeat one worry that a few of us raised about this particular kind of implementation: this would allow people to run level 1 fractals over and over and get skins, which devalues them.

One way to get around this, riffing on some suggestions earlier, would be to have the achievement give you a token you can trade into a merchant for rewards, with different rewards requiring different personal reward levels. Then maybe weapon skins could require a few tokens (if we get them every 100 fractals) and level 50, for instance.

(This still doesn’t address the other problem of letting us do something with skins we don’t want. Maybe we could turn unwanted skins into a tokens as well, at some exchange rate or other. It has the other problem of adding yet more currencies to the game, though, which may be unwelcome.)

This would still let you run level 1 fractals to get skins, but at least you’d have to make it to 50 first.

One Note Chord.5031:

ZeftheWicked.3076:

I can bet this has been touched upon 100 times but just in case:

Make fractal achievements (like 100 fractals done) etc reward fractal skin boxes where you pick your skin. RNG is bad, especially with fractals. There should be sure rewards for those who aren’t blessed by RNG star.

Since we’re reiterating things a bit here, I want to repeat one worry that a few of us raised about this particular kind of implementation: this would allow people to run level 1 fractals over and over and get skins, which devalues them.

One way to get around this, riffing on some suggestions earlier, would be to have the achievement give you a token you can trade into a merchant for rewards, with different rewards requiring different personal reward levels. Then maybe weapon skins could require a few tokens (if we get them every 100 fractals) and level 50, for instance.

(This still doesn’t address the other problem of letting us do something with skins we don’t want. Maybe we could turn unwanted skins into a tokens as well, at some exchange rate or other. It has the other problem of adding yet more currencies to the game, though, which may be unwelcome.)

This would still let you run level 1 fractals to get skins, but at least you’d have to make it to 50 first.

Personally I think it would be a better idea to just introduce a vendor that pops up after beating a boss on level 50. (Within the fractal)

That way players that are good enough to do level 50 fractals don’t have to actually have reward level 50. (Which is fair enough if you do every level once, but a bit much if you spend most of your time helping friends and guildmembers level up.)

Besides that though:

If the end reward for completing a run of 4 fractals is good enough, players wouldn’t just do the first one. So we might not even need this structure.

I would like to warn against setting the bar too high though. I am already seeing a lot of very high material requirement in crafting & mystic forge recipes. These require either a lot of gold, or a lot of time to gather.

I ask that you keep a human perspective. Don’t look at the list of fractal players and divide the requirements so that the most active fractal players still have something to strive for. Because what may be in reach for them, is out of reach for ‘normal’ players. This is fine for some types of rewards of course, but if we’re looking at completely new skins or stats, I think not.

The main reason why I make this warning is because not all players are wise enough to let some things be. They will simply put in more time because the game ‘requires’ it, and don’t pay attention to the impact it has on their lives. Please base rewards on what you perceive to still be a ‘healthy gaming habit’, not on the top statistics of the gamer ladder.

This doesn’t mean that there shouldn’t be anything for players that enjoy doing one thing in this game a lot though. But the incentive for them should be something other than ‘I need just two thousand more fractals and then I’ll have my legendary backpiece!’

If it seems impossible to make a fair reward track because some players already have incredible amounts of fractals done, then perhaps this achievement track shouldn’t be rewarded.

The same goes with the pristine relics though. Some players most likely have hundreds of them, perhaps even thousands. This doesn’t meant that some rewards should cost a thousand pristine relics.

Keep a human perspective! Don’t just look at the statistics.

Goodness! You are up and working early. Such dedication! I hope you are feeling better, Chris. =)

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Thanks for the feedback Spoj. Personally I am not a huge fan of puzzles but I tend to be a bit of an impatient gamer who just likes to smash things. What does everyone else think?

Chris

I’m a big fan of puzzles as content, but then I grew up with King’s Quest and I was the first in my house to finish Myst and its sequel Riven. So, I’m biased

I think, as you said before, Fractals or the world of Tyria at large is big enough for this sort of thing. There is the one treasure cave (the one with the Tears), though it needs some more checks on bugginess . . .

If you want to add Fractals like that, perhaps side attractions to the actual “vanilla” Fractals experience? Such as allowing a solo or small group puzzle instance. I could sketch out a few, or at least make a proper proposal post soon if it’s of interest to add them and not impact them directly into the standard Fractals run.

Personally I don’t mind the combat based puzzles, it is the environmental puzzles that I find frustrating sometimes. This said they do add variety and I know lots of player’s like them and therefore perhaps it is just a case of a careful balance.

I think the idea of different ‘types’ of fractals is really interesting. This said anything that is to divergent from the core will lead to polarizing opinion in the community I think.

Chris

I’m coming back just to say this, and I sincerely want your thoughts.

The community is already polarized. And this was only exacerbated by recent comments. So my question is, since this is related to different types of fractals (and I think they meant like, different fractal modes) how does the current system not polarize the community? It separates the haves from the have nots (in terms of AR and ascended gear). It separates the skillful (high level fractals) from the causal to semi hardcore players (low level fractals). These levels have a distinct line: level 10 for agony and ascended gear, and level 31 for instability fractals and high level. If they were trying to avoid polarizing the community, I’m not sure they succeeded.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

I think the idea of different ‘types’ of fractals is really interesting. This said anything that is to divergent from the core will lead to polarizing opinion in the community I think.

Well, if the fractal mechanics prevent you from implementing new and fun ideas, then I’d mark that as another point for changing the core fractal mechanics.

Solution A
Mechanics that would allow the group to choose their fractals have been proposed. If, say, each step offered two combat fractals and a puzzle one (randomly taken from the list of available fractals), players could always pick the playing style they like, without removing the randomness altogether.

Solution B
Another way would be to split the tasks between the group.
Imagine a jumping puzzle with lots of traps. There are buttons that fire the traps, and a horde of enemies (probably skritt) determined to push the buttons.

Three players need to traverse the jumping parts, standing on the end-platforms at the same time, while the other two need to defend the buttons.

Something like that wouldn’t work in the open world (since it’s impossible to do alone), nor in guild puzzles (since 20-man groups will just break the system), but it’d be perfect for a controlled environment with coordinated 5-man groups.

If not in the mists, where else are you ever going to implement all those weird ideas people keep having?

You’re finally being a little constructive with answers Chris. I’m happy to see that at least, even though the thread is closing Thursday as you mentioned. Those are kind of responses this thread needed since the very beginning. Like this idea might work because x, or this will not work because of y and z. Giving us ideas on what can and cannot be done, keeping our proposals constructive and on point.

Regardless, had a word with Izzy yet?

Regarding puzzles:

I would really love to see fractals that mix up puzzle mechanics and combat more, because I currently do not feel the game is doing it enough. I’d like to see trap-filled rooms, where traps and enemies interact with each other in interesting ways. I would like to see us pulling levers, activating switches, opening doors, and choosing different roads, rather than a linear path.

I dislike gimmicks, like having to pull those blobs to the gears in the Aetherblade path of Twilight Arbor. But I like combat situations where awareness of the environment is important. A perfect example of that is in Team Fortress 2, where one of the maps features a sawmill, with the players fighting around the moving sawblade. The mechanic becomes an active participant in the combat, and also a tool for cover, and for taking out opponents.

I would also welcome more platforming of the light variety. For example, the jumps before the Jade Maw are quite refreshing, and I really like the platforming in the Cliffside Fractal. None of these are particularly hard, but they mix up the combat.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Spoj The Second.7680:

The Lost Witch.7601:

If we move towards challenges that don’t really require combat, I’m afraid they would soon become one-dimensional. Since the challenge would basically be the same for these encounters: jump on time/jump far enough/craft as fast as you can. Whereas combat can have more depth, because we have more options available. Combat is what we build our characters for, why we spend a lot of time tweaking builds, finding whatever gear and build suits us best. Fractals is the place where combat becomes the most difficult. High level fractals are the place to be for combat enthousiasts.

There is a place for one-try puzzles though. We already have them in guild missions, bounties and puzzles. I just don’t think that fractals is the right place for them.

Agree with this so much. This is one of the biggest issues i have with the new fractals and the aether path. Too many puzzles. They shouldnt be in dungeons/fractals. Puzzle mechanics in fights are fine (seals on cliffside, agony rotating walls in aetherblade, buckets in dredge, collapsing floor in thaumanova atc). But the pure puzzles within fights without using combat and inbetween fights are just boring (barrage phases in mai trin, weapon test in molten, various puzzles in aether fractal and aetherpath in TA). If a combat element was added which allowed the speeding up of these timegated puzzles then I wouldnt have a problem with them.

Thanks for the feedback Spoj. Personally I am not a huge fan of puzzles but I tend to be a bit of an impatient gamer who just likes to smash things. What does everyone else think?

Chris

Depends on the type of the puzzle and how replayable it is.
If it’s randomly generated, I’d say it will be much better since it won’t be the same all over again.

If it’s a puzzle where you need to gather information for a set of questions, then it’s a pretty bad puzzle since you just need the answers and you’re done.

A better puzzle would be a Portal-style puzzle where you for example get a teleportation rifle and you’re suposed to teleport your way through a randomly generated level with things on the way to interact with, like buttons that open doors or makes surfaces appear that are teleportable or something along the lines. The party only gets one gun in total and has to perhaps give it to eachother in certain checkpoints. Resettable with some button you can press somewhere or some special skill you get that x members of the party needs to use in 60 seconds.

Another could be a floating platform with arrows on it that you stand on in order for the platform to move and you need to move through a randomly generated room with traps that will damage you if you move the platform wrongly.

A randomly generated jumping puzzle with non-combat obstacles (and perhaps also combat obstacles).

A rubiks cube sort of puzzle that you interact with through a series of buttons on the floor. (stolen from Wooden Potatoes I think)

A Dungeons and Dragons -esque fractal where the players gain local skills and stats depending on their GW2 class and stats. You’re supposed to navigate through a randomly generated dungeon and get to the boss but there are different ways there. There could be NPCs that help you if you have enough “charisma” stat. Traps that you spot within a certain distance depending on your “wisdom” stat. Walls that you can break if you have enough “strength”.

Swamp is a sort of puzzle and it works pretty well although it’s a bit boring.

But just like in D&D, alternative ways of progressing that doesn’t include combat also requires you to reward the players in equivalent other ways since you can’t loot monsters.
Extra chests when completing puzzles, perhaps randomly generated hidden loot.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

I agree with your first paragraph, and actually quite like the blob mechanics in Aether.

I’d like to point out something fast here. The reason why blob mechanic-like gimmicks should not be used is not connected to it being fun/not fun (or at least not directly connected). The problem lies elsewhere. Blob escort, as well as several other fights in the game (Southsun Canach final instance, Marionette I and II wardens) is really interesting and refreshing, as it forces mobility and surrounding awareness where there usually none is requied. Unfortunately all those mechanics are built up on aggro management – something, than in this game has been intentionally gutted into nonexistence. Basically, if you want to put more content like this, you need to introduce more aggro manage options (one that we could depend on). If you are unwilling to introduce such mechanic, then you need to stop introducing fights that assume its existence.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

I agree with your first paragraph, and actually quite like the blob mechanics in Aether. I disagree with the final paragraph and that is only because I am rubbish at jumping puzzles.

Note though this is my personal opinion and not indicative of a direction I would enforce (-: (clearly)

Chris

Do you think it’s possible that we’ll see traps in the near future, that affect foes and players alike? Because one of the things I really enjoyed in GW1’s Sorrow’s Furnace, is that you could use traps against your opponents. You could lure them underneath crushers, and it had the exact same effect on them, as it did on us.

I like it when an encounter is like a sort of sandbox. Where there are all these interesting mechanics that interact with each other in dynamic ways. Where pressure plates are activated by players and enemies alike, and where the environment can be turned against the enemies. It mixes up the combat, and makes it less boring, more strategic.

I’d love to walk into a room some time, and just have the freedom to choose my strategy. Maybe there’s a trap on one side, that could be used to take out enemies (but it also blocks my way). And a lever on the other side, to deactivate the trap, but it’s guarded by a champion. And maybe a third path that is underwater and hidden, but which circumvents the trap, and allows the players to flank the enemy. However they’d better be ready for a big fight on the other side. And maybe there are traps that can be activated by enemies on purpose, unless the players catch up to them, and stop them dead in their tracks before they can do so.

I would welcome options, and dynamic mechanics. Not linear, but a bit more open.

Mikuchan.7261:

hendo.1940:

For goodness sake, stop with these puzzle suggestions, if you want to scare off what’s left of your dedicated fractal community, just throw in a bunch of obnoxious puzzles like all of the terrible suggestions in this thread and watch how nobody can be kitten d to do FOTM anymore because it will end up as Aetherpath 2.0 where it’s not worth the tedium.

For goodness sake be more constructive?
Also, the entire fractal community is doing a puzzle fractal as it’s first fractal constantly so I really don’t see the problem.
Yes, Swamp is a puzzle fractal, hate to break it to you.

Thats not the reason they do it though. Noone enjoys do the wisp puzzle. None of the pure invironmental puzzles are fun after doing them once. Puzzles arent replayable or repeatable. And even if you somehow make them randomly generated they will still eventually become boring because theres only so many iterations that can be generated. Fractals is a place where people go for difficult combat in pve. If you want environmental puzzles you should be doing jumping puzzles and guild puzzles not fractals.

I get it the audience is primarily smash and grab. That’s why when I initially suggested them, failure would quickly move you into another fractal at that tier. Puzzles and other far off the beaten path challenges could be introduced in a way that if you suck at jumping/hate puzzles/just wanna kill they wouldn’t bar your progress more than a couple minutes tops.

The other option remains to incorporate them as short cuts within traditional challenge structures. Imagine an update to the Snowblind fractal when upon approaching the Ice Elemental there is an alternative to harvest X trees, and a crafting station when a player with Huntsman or Artificer of at least 300 can process them and you throw the results at the elemental starting a bonfire that kills it instantly. You can fight or you can chop some lumber if there’s a suitable crafter present.

We basically already have jumping puzzles to skip parts of the Underground Facility fractal, with all the ways people work around the first two gates . Instead of putting up invisible walls in every corner, you could actually formalize it as an acceptable alternative…

Spoj The Second.7680:

Thats not the reason they do it though. Noone enjoys do the wisp puzzle. None of the pure invironmental puzzles are fun after doing them once. Puzzles arent replayable or repeatable. And even if you somehow make them randomly generated they will still eventually become boring because theres only so many iterations that can be generated.

How is that different from the jellyfish boss? How are any of the combat encounters in fractals not wildly repetitive the 10th time? or the 50th?

I’m still enjoying guild puzzles. I think they have (a lot) more life than you’re giving them credit for.

About Fractal Skins.

You guys should be carefull about the changes (if changes) because it can become the final slap at veteran’s faces if these skins decreases their valuate in a radical way.

I suggest to find a way that makes the goal something you can work towards (find the fractal skin you want) but at the same time making sure you played a lot of “high level Fractals”. Because these skins are the only reason people run fractals in term of unique rewards in Fractals.

So, trading pristine relics for skins would be a bad choice in my opinion because as someone said, this way you can basically grind level 11 till you get the neccesary amount of pristine relics. I’d say something like a new type of token at level 41 or higher would be right decision.

See you!

Chris would it be possible for maybe some theme’d fractal experiences, that way you could include version of LS from the past for new players and or returning player that missed that content.
To that extent that could include drops of otherwise limit access materials/recipes/etc.