Guild Wars 2

Dave Pare.2069:

Shiren.9532:

Allie Murdock.8152:

Hey all,

I just wanted to clarify since we saw some confusion about this, both in this thread and on Reddit. The summary I posted was a summary of feedback I took from you guys in this thread and sent to the devs. It is not a reflection of changes that are or will be made (necessarily).

That doesn’t mean we aren’t doing anything about the feedback in the summary, it just shouldn’t be considered “Balance update notes”.

Hopefully that clears up some of the confusion.

Does that mean feedback that wasn’t included in your summary isn’t going to be seen by the devs or is going to be less prominent in the discussions?

It means Allie is the only one reading this thread; she made a “note list” that the devs read.

So, just to be clear: it seems the devs didn’t bother reading all the suggestions in this thread but just the notes Allie passed them.

I hope I’m wrong.

We have seen some devs (I think so; at least non-Allie people) post a little early one. I believe that it means Allie is reading and communicating based off of the whole discussion where as devs might read a page or two every couple of days just to see some specific ideas or trends. It takes a while to read and discuss all the ideas on this page so I believe even though it is not their responsibility some devs might still read some our discussion so they can understand the communities views (through small amounts of reading and Allie) while still attending to their duties.

Phalaphone.1642:

Dave Pare.2069:

Shiren.9532:

Allie Murdock.8152:

Hey all,

I just wanted to clarify since we saw some confusion about this, both in this thread and on Reddit. The summary I posted was a summary of feedback I took from you guys in this thread and sent to the devs. It is not a reflection of changes that are or will be made (necessarily).

That doesn’t mean we aren’t doing anything about the feedback in the summary, it just shouldn’t be considered “Balance update notes”.

Hopefully that clears up some of the confusion.

Does that mean feedback that wasn’t included in your summary isn’t going to be seen by the devs or is going to be less prominent in the discussions?

It means Allie is the only one reading this thread; she made a “note list” that the devs read.

So, just to be clear: it seems the devs didn’t bother reading all the suggestions in this thread but just the notes Allie passed them.

I hope I’m wrong.

We have seen some devs (I think so; at least non-Allie people) post a little early one. I believe that it means Allie is reading and communicating based off of the whole discussion where as devs might read a page or two every couple of days just to see some specific ideas or trends. It takes a while to read and discuss all the ideas on this page so I believe even though it is not their responsibility some devs might still read some our discussion so they can understand the communities views (through small amounts of reading and Allie) while still attending to their duties.

This would make sense, I hope they’re reading from time to time even if not responding directly to posts!

Allie and the devs stated the devs read the thread. I think even chris, in the fractal CDI, stated that devs were discussing on ideas in this thread. So, yes, they are reading.
What allie passed on were (I believe) main ideas that came around a few times (and maybe) in line with what the devs were discussing at that time…

Aveneo.2068:

thefantasticg.3984:

Frostfang.5109:

@ Arghore…. on page 60.

Game mode: PvE

If I want to be a beastmaster (which I do prefer) i want my pet to be able to stayby my side constantly as today… Not just for a period of time like a summon that dies/diapears.

If the pet would become a temporary summon, that would ruin the class totally IMO.

Funny, because IMO, making the pet a summon that dies/disappears would totally fix the class.

Actually, IMO the current pet is more like a summon that dies/disappears (becomes useless) mere moments after you enter combat.

The ranger needs a permanent (and functional) companion, or it will just be a druid with some nature magic.

@Frostfang , that is why I suggested to add a ‘companion pet’ on the pet-portrait that would de-spawn the moment you get agro. And possibly have some interesting other things on the display pet (like butterflies, bees, f/e). This would also help a lot with ‘theme building’, see, if you like certain pets for the theme they bring to you while playing. But, that pet may not be the pet that goes with my build or play style. When these two are separated, I become more of a beast master, being able to choose from multiple pets to summon, based on the situation I am in, while having a companion pet to signal my profession to the world.

This last thing is also on ANet’s mind, even though it has not been stated here. But I know it is. They want us to be able to distinguish easily between a ranger with sword/dagger and a thief with sword dagger. And seeing we are in the same armour class, the only way to do that visually is the pet. This might actually be a bigger reason to not have a perma-stow then any other reason… With a visual ‘dummy’ pet integrated into the system, that would all be solved ^^.

And lets face it, any pet you have when you are not in a fight might just as well be a dummy pet. It’s not doing anything … And it would also make it possible for people to bond with their one pet (they could put it on F1 and on Portrait f/e), while still having the opportunity to call in another pet if the situation calls for it.

@thefantasticg , I agree, f/e it would make it a lot easier to balance the pet for what it is intended to do and after that it can de-spawn. Making room for another pet to be summoned for the situation that happens to be there in 25-30 sec, or how ever long a ‘recharge’ mechanic for Necro/Warrior f/e takes. Some pets could be hugely tough, it doesn’t really matter, as they will de-spawn just as hard as a glass-cannon pet.

I also like it because it strengthens the ‘beast master’ theme, beyond the ‘boy and hit pet dragon’ or the ‘Guard and his dog’ Tropes. In favour of a more serious beast-master that can all in several different pets to his aid. And it keeps the pets as the mechanic.

@Aveneo Druid ?!? with ‘nature magic’ ?!? … I don’t know if we are talking about the same Ranger. But truly there is no Druid to be found (well maybe in muddy terrain, but beyond that ‘Druid stain’ there is hardly any Druidic action. Which may well be due to the spirits being as unreliable as the pets, I don’t even count those skills.

Nah, and that is another ‘pet peeve’ of mine about the current ranger. The ‘themes’ it has are way to weakly implemented. The pet is that, a pet, like you own a dog or a cat, or bunny. Nothing in the class truly feels like a beast master (the #4-warhorn is about the only other thing that contributes), this is also (man a lot of reasons) why I like the summon suggestion a lot. As all of a sudden there are 4 pets to be summoned and possibly commanded, add to those some shouts, and charms (signets), and there are 10-‘skill’ dedicated to beastmastery.

Then add some truly nature skills, like muddy terrain, rapid growth, roaring winds, or some of those that Opheal suggested above. And make Spirits somewhat similar but different, and you would have 7 ‘nature magic’ skills on the ranger (including heal). Then add some more and clear weapon traits, and survival skills, and the ranger gets more of that ‘bowman, woodsman’ feel to it. But before I repeat myself…

@Above…
If you would like to, you can read the suggestion including pet-traits to go with it … (and some truly nature magic skills) here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Suggestion-typed-out-for-the-CDI/first#content Feel free to give feedback

Parts 1 and 2
Shouts and Traps

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Collaborative-Development-Ranger-Profession/page/61#post3755566

UTILITY REWORK PART 3 * SPIRITS*

Proposal Overview

Spirits feel VERY passive. These increase their active feel and want to use them actively.

Goal of Proposal

To slightly improve wvw support play where they are highly unviable in groups because they are dying a lot while increasing their active feel in sPvP.

Proposal Functionality

Internal cool downs
Reduce internal cool downs on sun, storm, water and earth to 5 seconds and reduce the proc benefits by 50% to make it seem like the spirits proc more and are more active. This fits a skirmishing play style more which is in line with the goal of the ranger.

Natures Vengeance
Increases the radius of your spirit activated and passive abilities. Your spirits use your activated ability when you die.
This will help improve smart placement of spirits akin to GW1 instead of just spamming. This will also help their survivability in WvW because they can play back a little and still provide their support

Increase spirit active ability animation speed
The active effects come out too slow in order to time well. Increase speed or slightly buff their active effects. This will quicken the pace of spirits play and allow for better timing so you can energize your attacks with your weapons and pets

Associated Risks

Spirits might be a little to strong and the passive effects might be needed to down down 5%. But it will feel way more active and way better.

Drake Phoenix.6158:

I’m sorry… you want to split a single trait into two separate traits, and then the only additional bonuses to the overall effects is that one is now an Adept trait, and the other one has increased range that realistically should take place anyway?

I understand the desire to have at least one trap-related trait in the WS trait line for synergy with Malice, at least under the current state of traps where they are pretty totally conditions skills only (a state that I am not personally fond of, as I would like to see more potential for power/crit trapping). And I understand the idea behind allowing someone to choose to go with point-blank melee traps while still gaining increased trap radius of effect (as it would be more convenient for melee trappers to do this, than to deal with ground targeting at their own feet). Also, as a ranged trapper myself, I love the idea of having 900 range ground targeting instead of only 600. But I don’t think that the added bonuses are enough to justify the split.

I understand where you are coming from,

I thought about putting the split in marks for condition duration for some more power/crit and control traps.

However I didn’t want to touch their adept traits, I feel they are all ok in some degree.

A simple solution to this would be to add an adept trait that makes traps deal a certain amount of damage when triggered in the skirmish line. Then power trappers can take this trait and condition trappers can take sharpened edges.

(Between you and me, I also love playing a power / control trapper I use to run a perma frost ranger)

@Orpheal seeing I found out the hard way how long it can take to make these elaborated revamps, and how it feels as though nobody pays any attention to them :P … while you yourself (myself) crave for some feedback, as it is really hard to judge one’s own creative work. Some general feedback from me

- Like you thinking outside the box on the traps, I do agree that some would also fit on a weapon very well.
- Personally i’m in favour of a different way to use the F-keys but that doesn’t negate the fact that this is another way to deal with them. And one I haven’t read yet
- I like some of the changes you made to signets they could deffo use a boost. You made lightning reflexes WAY TO powerfull, its almost an elite now?

next post of suggestions
- I don’t like the spirits you made, they feel a lot like elemental skills wrapped on the engineer backpacks, and slapped onto the ranger as an alternative. Seeing a lot of them are creative, I would advice you to leave the Elementalist realm and move onto a more nature based Druid feel, change the names to ‘marsh/bog spirit’, ‘mountain spirit’, ‘forest spirit’, ‘desert spirit’ may well give a whole lot of different skills that feel a lot more like a ranger’s. Still though, I personally do not think that using a mechanic so iconic for a certain profession (engineer backpacks) should be reutilized 1on1 on a different profession.

last list of suggestions, assortment of new ones
- Like a lot of your ‘new’ suggestions, especially the nature ones … One specific thing, ‘not being able to move while stealth’ed is absolutely not useful’ i play a thief as well and stealth does not mean you won’t be hit! Especially with the large amount of Area of Effect spells and skills, as long as people have a rough estimate of where you are, you are not at all safe

Further more, I have two questions:
- one of the things noted was that the ranger does ‘not’ have a lot of condition removal, i don’t see you deal with that.
- Another thing is that ranger do not seem to have a lot of reliable party support, I do not see you deal with that either… ? …

Soo, maybe you could change the spirits in some other way to supply party support? And or maybe some new skills could deal with that too, or nature ones, and/or condition removal.

Specific Game Mode
*PvX

Proposal Overview
Incorporating traits and abilities to care for your pet as a companion and maintain a nature bond with your pet continuously.

Goal of Proposal
The Ranger as a permanent pet user is a core of the original class design philosophy but the combat system of GW2 is ever increasing to movement awareness and active combat functionality. This proposal will suggest changing traits and utilities from harming our pets to consider them as useful and cherished companions. Pets are sometimes useful, but in several game modes they are either non functioning or consistently dead, therefore an introduction of spectral versions of our pets (aspects) need to benefit while they are on death cooldown or by choice. Rangers must be able to benefit from their class mechanic (F2) when the game mode is advanced beyond Pet AI. There needs to be a cooldown introduced to forced aspect mode so a Ranger cannot overly abuse flipping between buff and physical DOT (pet damage) while large damage skills are on cooldown.

Proposal Functionality
On death or by choice (F4) each type of pet emits a Ranger specific nonremovable buff.

Bird: Aspect of the Raptor – 10% attack speed increase. Does not stack with quickness. F2 – Next attack blinds foes. 30 second cooldown.

Cat: Aspect of the Feline – 150 Prowess (15% critical damage) F2- Activate Stealth for 3 seconds. 30 second cooldown.

Dog: Aspect of the Canine – 150 Power F2 – Perform Brutal Charge – leap and knockdown foe. Combo Finisher: Leap Range: 350 (Animation of Savage Leap from Warrior) Cooldown 60 seconds.

Bear: Aspect of the Ursine – 10% damage reduction. F2 – Activate Unstoppable – Take no damage for 3 seconds. Breaks stuns. Cooldown 60 seconds.

Moa: Aspect of the Ratite – Regenerate health 62/second. F2 – Harmonica Cry – pull out a harmonica and play a tune. Anyone who recognizes the tune and types it first in /say within 600 meters wins a free [Mini Black Moa].

Pig: Aspect of the Swine – 150 Vitality – F2 – Activate Forage and search for an environmental weapon. Cooldown 40 seconds.

Spider: Aspect of the Arachnid – 150 Malice (Condition damage) F2 – Throw a web and immobilize a foe for 3 seconds. Range 900. Cooldown 40 seconds.

Devourer: Aspect of the Scorpion – 10% Range damage F2 – Activate Quick Retreat – Evade backwards. Evade 3/4 second. Cooldown 30 seconds.

Drake: Aspect of the Dragon – 30% chance on critical to trigger a flame blast for AoE damage. F2 – Activate Tail Swipe (Animation from Warrior Hammer Staggering Blow) Combo Finisher Blast. Cooldown 40 seconds.

(Just examples, and underwater not covered)

Traits and Utilities
Have all pet specific buffs in the traitlines also affect Ranger to a minimal degree under pet aspects. Also there are too many traits and utilities that harm a pet and further increase their death rate.

Example:
Malicious Training Increase conditions applied by your pets by 50%. When in Aspect increase Ranger condition duration by 10%.

Agility Training Pets move 30% faster. When in Aspect Ranger moves 25% faster.

Compassion Training Pet Healing Increased 350. When in Aspect Ranger Healing increased 150.

Signet of Renewal: Cure a condition every 10 seconds. Active: Pet(includes Spirit of the Pet) cures all conditions on Ranger and 2 from every ally.

Protect Me: Pet blocks one attack (aegis) for itself and Ranger and makes the Ranger immune to all damage for 4 seconds.

Emphatic Bond: Pets periodically cure conditions from both Ranger and themselves. 2/10 seconds.

Associated Risks

There needs to be balance on cooldown activation time on making pets a visible and spectral companion (F4) due to abuse of powerful cooldown abilities to limit power creep. In other words you should not be able to pop back and forth with Aspect and pet with no cooldown inside of combat. There also needs to be some compensation for picking a certain pet for the Ranger and be able to maintain some benefit of a companion through death or life.

Enemies must have a visual cue to what to expect with a Ranger pet out, either dead (spectral/aspect) or alive.

There can be no skills without animations so recycling animations needs to be considered.

Proposal Overview
This proposal is for the integration of Master’s Bond into base pet functionality. It is hoped this will improve master-pet attachment, possibly improve pet stats and functionality.
I’m including a change to the bonus mechanic which will hopefully combat the frequent resets caused by pet swap (promoted through traiting and enforced by things like swimming).

Goal of Proposal:
Make a somewhat useless trait useful and increase pet management variables.

Proposal Functionality
-Remove beastmastery trait 2: Master’s Bond.
-Integrate with base pet functionality.
-Change stack bonus from flat 8 to 3+Beastmastery trait level.
-Optional: reduce max stacks to 15.

The change in bonus will make this ability much weaker at low beastmastery traiting, but will come for free. At high beastmastery the increased bonus will help compensate for the frequent resets and will hopefully promote prolonged use of pets

The reduction of max stacks is proposed to limit the total benefit to more reasonable increases while still have a quick payback.

Associated Risks:
The bonus change may not be feasible as it will require evaluation of invested trait points, a feature not included in any other ability in the game. This limitation may break the proposal’s utility as a high fixed bonus would be too easy to exploit at such low cost and a low value would render the utility null.

The change to max stacks may not be feasible as it is a behavior not exhibited elsewhere.

Elimination of Master’s bond creates a hole in the beastmaster’s traitline.

The change in bonus means will favor heavy investment in beastmastery as you’d be getting about 4 times current and 11 times base proposed. Those uninterested in pet bonuses will still generate benefit, but at a negligible rate, although it’d make base pets very strong at low levels.

Bonus scaling value is subject to debate, primary goal was to make bonus proportional to beastmastery investment.

rpfohr.7048:

A simple solution to this would be to add an adept trait that makes traps deal a certain amount of damage when triggered in the skirmish line. Then power trappers can take this trait and condition trappers can take sharpened edges.

I actually really like this idea. Better than my own idea for simply adding +damage to the Trap Potency trait, in fact. I think though that it would have to be a +damage% per pulse effect though. That would synergize well with both Marks and Skirm lines and open up more viable 30/30/x/x/x power/crit trapper builds.

But as with my own proposal, there is the issue of DoT vs. Burst. While I really want to see power/crit traps capable of dealing comparable damage to condi traps, I’m not sure it would be balanced to have it all dealt out at one shot, as that would be too large a burst.

I’m not sure how to fully address that issue. I had suggested maybe reducing the cooldown on traps based on the difference between power+crit and condition damage. But now I’ve thought about that some more, I realize that because traps would still be dealing some condi damage, the reduced cooldown could end up making the conditions aspect too powerful. In that case, it may be necessary to also reduce condition durations dynamically based on the dynamic cooldown. This would be less of an issue for split traits as you suggest than it would be with my own suggestion, but I think it would still need to be addressed.

Maybe an alternative possibility would be to make the new Skirm trait cause traps to deal twice as many pulses as normal (thus doubling the duration of the trap effect field), but have the extra pulses deal only direct damage, no additional conditions pulses. That would make it so that the conditions are not increased as a byproduct of the trait, would add power/crit damage for trappers who take the new trait, would spread the direct damage out so it is less of a burst and a little more DoT, and would also give opponents more opportunity to mitigate some of the trap damage by making it out of the field of effect before all pulses complete (this would be useful I think, as conditions can be mitigated through condition removal, but direct damage not so much, and I think allowing a means of mitigating the increased direct damage would be more balanced).

BlackenX.7386:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Collaborative-Development-Ranger-Profession/page/61#post3755566

I’m really happy this kind of discussion is finally happening for the Ranger! Too long have we been the short end of the Profession ladder… This thread has encouraged me to make my first post!

Anyway, I think this concept of “becoming” something else is interesting, and on that note I want to give my input on the discussion of Spirits. What if Spirits were PBAoE auras instead of summoned adds? This would result in a kind of “typical-MMO-support-Bard” trope, I know… But wouldn’t this alleviate the issue of having Spirits die in melee, which is such a huge niche in DPS Rangers at the moment?

It could work similarly to Warrior’s Banners where your moveset will change depending on the Aura, forcing the player to choose your Spirit wisely. This would, in turn, work similarly to Elementalist’s Conjure Weapons. [Nature Magic VII] would then release the Spirit, allow them to function the same as they do now, thus freeing up your Weapon skills.

edit: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Collaborative-Development-Ranger-Profession/3758203

Orpheal posted something similar that I just saw~ much more in-depth than me!

A quick response to the suggestions from Orpheal and BlackenX…

While I love the fact that these are very creative ideas, and I applaud you both for your efforts, I personally don’t like the ideas specifically for the Ranger. They simply feel too much like a Druid class, and just don’t fit in with my personal conception of what the Ranger class is and does. I also think they fail to fit in with what the devs have repeatedly indicated as their own conception of what the Ranger class is and does.

They’re great ideas in general, but if they were actually implemented, I would like the Ranger clkitten, not more, simply based on general flavor and play style.

Nike.2631:

WATCH ME PULL A MOA OUT OF MY HAT…
While pet AI may not be entirely satisfactory, MMO combat is hardly a Turing Test. We can, with a little stagecraft, easily create the illusion of intelligent play.

Nothing Up My Sleeve…
Ranger companions gain an endurance bar, identical to player endurance bars in all ways. They gain Vigor any time their master gains vigor and they benefit from Natural Vigor if their master has that trait.

Any time the pet takes more than 20% of their maximum health in damage (a trigger we know the game recognizes due to traits like Nature’s Protection) and they have more than 50% of their endurance left, the pet instead takes no damage, evades for 2 seconds, and performs a dodge animation/movement towards its master (whom we can only hope is standing somewhere not stupid…).

Presto!
Pets now pretend to dodge, using their master as a reference point to give the appearance that they roll in a sensible direction when something massive is dropped on their heads. They also interact more consistently with the boon removal and corruption skills of other players, adding value to those skills.

Are even Players that Smart?
While I feel that triggering automatically when a major hit comes in is probably consistent with the level skilled players display, it would be possible to add an addition check with a <100% chance before the “dodge” triggers to simulate lapses. Also, because the trigger is damage-spike based, there are smaller attacks the pet will not expend a dodge to avoid. Finally, some of the pets with larger HP pools might be unnecessarily reluctant to dodge. Thresholds would have to be tuned following playtesting.

I know this one was posted waaayyy at the beginning (page 18), but I feel it merits comment now that I’ve found and started participating in this thread.

With that in mind, I have to say, I LOVE this idea… with one exception. In my experience, due to the differences between pet positioning and master position in a dynamic combat exchange, dodging towards the master is not always going to be a “sensible” direction.

While the mechanics proposed would make that a non-issue in terms of outcome, giving the illusion of intelligent pet dodging would be better served by another, far more complex method. Specifically, the game determines the epicenter and radius of the attack that triggers the dodge, and then tests the pet’s current position against the outer edge of the attack effect, then the pet performs a dodge animation in the direction towards the nearest edge point. If the attack is not an AoE, then the pet dodges toward the master.

In my opinion, this would look more intelligent. The drawbacks are numerous though, and I think would make it infeasible to make the illusion that dynamic. Namely, there would be the risk of the pet dodging off a cliff or similar environmental problem, it would be a large amount of work for the programmers to implement the “best dodge direction” check function, and the basic server load for making such a calculation would be quite high (too high for what would essentially be a cosmetic change compared to Nike’s original proposal).

so if pets gain the spirit buffs will it be activated if the pet dies and are both pets buffed with it?
and why no greatsword buff? maybe more cooldowns on sword so we could play in greatword and sword+horn rotation but the greatsword does more dmg

and please remove that eagle from greatsword jump and shark from spear charge animation bug

Here is a little PS presentation how my Redesign would look like
P.s.: I’ve recalculated the costs & this “dodgeable initiative” wouldn’t be OP at all.
And would be relatively easy to balance it actually!

SkiTz.4590:

You just contradicted yourself here (bolded) You say there will be massive improvement but you don’t think this requires an overhaul?

That’s not a contradiction. Small simple changes can make for a huge improvement. It’s all in the numbers, and how far the devs are willing to go.

SkiTz.4590:

Ok believe what you want to man, but fixing the ranger does require an overhaul, you are blind if you honestly believe this class will get fixed by tweaking a few numbers.

I never stated it would be just a matter of tweaking numbers. The pet mechanic for one, requires a better design. This could simply be a matter of adding new control options (extra coding) or a matter of providing pets with more survivability (tweaking numbers). I hope both.

The ranger isn’t broken, it’s just bad. A bad class can come a long way by tweaking numbers. But to make it more interesting…. well, that may require redesigning some skills.

SkiTz.4590:

Their DPS is awful compared to every other class (tweak the numbers))
Their surviviablity is mediocre at best. (one better survival skill)
They literally are useless in WvW (sure you can roam around and kill downlevels by yourself, any class can roam) (better utility)
Their class mechanic is by far the worst when compared to other classes. (a pet fix will require a lot of work, there I agree)
Their party support is terrible (one good support skill)

As you can see, I added suggestions behind your points. These do not sound impossible to do.

SkiTz.4590:

You do realize if there were simple ways it would be fixed a long time ago. All of those things you believe are simple fixes? IMO they are not simple fixes and require a lot of balance and testing

Some are simple, some are more difficult. To make pets die less often is a simple fix. Just give them damage reduction from bosses. But to make them more useful as a whole, that is more tricky. But unless you’re willing to come up with solutions, fixing the class indeed is a daunting task. It is however not as daunting as you make it out to be.

SkiTz.4590:

And I’m not sure what you are getting at by saying anet is specifically focusing on ranger for the patch… thats absolutely false lol, why on earth would they ignore the rest of the classes? They will focus each class equally IMO (probably a bit more to ranger sends it needs more help, but still other classes will defintely be looked at )

In the long run, but now they’ve chosen to focus on the class that they believe is in the worst spot right now. What do you think this discussion is about?

PvE/PvP

PROPOSAL
currently the rangers pet is very underpowered if they are going to steal 30% of our damage make them worth it make each pet a mini powerhouse having multiple “spells” that they can activate e.g. eagle whirlwind blow all enemies backward in a 900 radius area. also perhaps adding a feature in PvP that means the ranger can’t be damaged until a quarter of his pets health has gone down meaning they can’t just ignore the pet

RISKS
this may cause some issues with the other classes damaging the ranger and make the pet die instantly to multiple attacks

Pandacroc.6591:

PvE/PvP

PROPOSAL
currently the rangers pet is very underpowered if they are going to steal 30% of our damage make them worth it make each pet a mini powerhouse having multiple “spells” that they can activate e.g. eagle whirlwind blow all enemies backward in a 900 radius area. also perhaps adding a feature in PvP that means the ranger can’t be damaged until a quarter of his pets health has gone down meaning they can’t just ignore the pet

RISKS
this may cause some issues with the other classes damaging the ranger and make the pet die instantly to multiple attacks

I’ve barely read 1% of the posts in this thread but how often do people suggest crazy crap like this?

Can’t we just make the pet take 50% less damage from champions and elites in PVE?

Hammerguard.9834:

Pandacroc.6591:

snip

I’ve barely read 1% of the posts in this thread but how often do people suggest crazy crap like this?

Less than you expect and more than we needed.

I think an idea like “Strike As One” —An Elite Skill from GW1-- would be a good idea to implement. Basically the skill adds a shadow step to the pet. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Strike_as_one

This type of play would help mitigate the liability of the AI. In the original game it was a shout.

The other problem I am seeing too is that there are different issues for different game types. I think the only way to assuage the issues for not just the Ranger, but for all classes is skill splits. Things can’t be tackled properly. You fix something for PvE and you break it for PvP and WvW and vice versa. Who gets priority? As a PvP player, I don’t want to see a fix ruin a few builds for PvP, but I also don’t like PvP dictating what works for me in PvE. Not to get too far off topic, but a perfect example of this is Engie turrets. In PvE you could have a “Summon Turrets” skill that would move all of your turrets to you and it would be amazing. It wouldn’t work for PvP as it would be too OP for cap points. If a skill split was enabled, a lot of these issues across all classes could be fixed so that the focus of each class was geared toward each format. I would love the build variety too.

Not much has been said about the downed state.

Specific Game Mode
WvW (mode I play most)

Proposal Overview
Lick Wounds should work equally well with a living pet compared to a dead one.

Goal of Proposal
Lick Wounds should not punish you for having a living pet. The way it works now you are much better off if your pet is dead before you hit this skill. Dead pets are teleported, living pets currently have to walk. Dead pets are healed to full, living pets currently are not healed at all.

Proposal Functionality
Your pet is restored fully healed at your side to revive you.

Associated Risks
This would make a pretty reliable downed state skill in PvE even more so. People with half-dead pets would be brought up to the level of people with fully dead pets.

misterdevious.6482:

Not much has been said about the downed state.

Specific Game Mode
WvW (mode I play most)

Proposal Overview
Lick Wounds should work equally well with a living pet compared to a dead one.

Goal of Proposal
Lick Wounds should not punish you for having a living pet. The way it works now you are much better off if your pet is dead before you hit this skill. Dead pets are teleported, living pets currently have to walk. Dead pets are healed to full, living pets currently are not healed at all.

Proposal Functionality
Your pet is restored fully healed at your side to revive you.

Associated Risks
This would make a pretty reliable downed state skill in PvE even more so. People with half-dead pets would be brought up to the level of people with fully dead pets.

LOL! Best of luck with any improvements to our downed state. It’s the only thing most everyone can agree on being overpowered.

Atherakhia.4086:

LOL! Best of luck with any improvements to our downed state. It’s the only thing most everyone can agree on being overpowered.

Really? I don’t see it. I usually get about 10 seconds of being downed before someone stomps me. PvE wise, yeah it’s pretty useful to have the pet as a dedicated res asssist . . . but WvW? Doesn’t help.

Atherakhia.4086:

LOL! Best of luck with any improvements to our downed state. It’s the only thing most everyone can agree on being overpowered.

How often do you successfully lick wounds in WvW?

the problem with ranger in WvW zerg situation is the design philosophy. “single targeted sustained damage”.

ranger should have more AoE skills and control-effect in the 4th and 5th skill of every weapon. Anet could keep same philosophy for 1st and 2nd skills.

ranger WvW is broken. no real support that you can give except your pet skill. pet always dies even if you make it passive. so pet skill is not responsive.

i think the solution for WvW zerg ranger is to add more AoE control-effect.

Specific Game Mode
WvW and PvE

Proposal Overview
Simple idea to keep the pet alive in heavy damage environements

Goal of Proposal
Pets die too quickly in WvW when fighting a zerg and it’s the same in dungeons and against LS boss. The ranger lose a good part of his DPS because of this and can’t do much about it except keeping the pet away from the fight resulting in the same DPS loss. This simple idea fix the problem by reducing damage taken without making it too powerful in 1vs1 battles.

Proposal Functionality
Reduce pet damages by 90% when it’s not targetted
This function is already available in the game so it shouldn’t be hard to add.
This can eventually be added as a trait (low tier)

Associated Risks
Mostly in 1vsX against people using lot of AoE who’d like those AoE to damage both the ranger and the pet, it’s not like there are much anyway.

Extensions
Could eventually be applied to spirits, except for PvP

misterdevious.6482:

Atherakhia.4086:

LOL! Best of luck with any improvements to our downed state. It’s the only thing most everyone can agree on being overpowered.

How often do you successfully lick wounds in WvW?

All the time because people tend not to stomp in the middle of zergs. Instead they expect the AE to take care of the downed. But since I’m ranged and not in the middle of the zerg I often don’t get hit by too much AE. And lets not forget that we can give Aquaman a run for his money in the water.

Granted when I get up I’m as useless as ever… but that’s the reason for this thread that we still haven’t gotten around to discussing yet.

Nektera.9425:

the problem with ranger in WvW zerg situation is the design philosophy. “single targeted sustained damage”.

ranger should have more AoE skills and control-effect in the 4th and 5th skill of every weapon. Anet could keep same philosophy for 1st and 2nd skills.

ranger WvW is broken. no real support that you can gift except your pet skill. pet always dies even if you make it passive. so pet skill is not responsive.

i think the solution for WvW zerg ranger is to add more AoE control-effect.

The solution to WvW is to make the Ranger a complete class instead of the hobbled mess it is today.

It doesn’t have burst like every other class.
It doesn’t have AE like every other class.
It has no real access to hard CC like every other class.
It can’t counter hard CC without an elite, and self only.
It’s soft CC is quite limited.
Almost all non-traited utility is on a dead pet.
Almost all traited utility is on dead spirits.

An inferior water field and a couple forms of immobilize is about all this class realistically offers and neither of these amount to anything in organized group settings.

Game Mode: PvX

Overview:
Replace Rapid Fire with “Power Shot” A charged up shot with the same charge time and total damage at each charge interval as rapid fire, but in one, very fast (instant hit) shot which applies vuln and cripples for 6s if fully charged.

Goals:
Bring interesting, theme fitting gameplay (stealth charging, better interaction with attack of opportunity/opening strike) to PvP/WvW and de-homogenize the damage to improve longbow performance against real players, without unnecessary buffs to PvE damage over time.

Functionality:
Rapid Fire as one charged hitscan arrow allows the ranger to better take advantage of the many traits and buffs that work on one hit (opening strike, moment of clarity) as well as actually use the stealth, opening up a good game play decision (do I sit here and charge or turn and gain distance).

Attaching a cripple or other control to a full charge rewards good choices with more kiting, which longbow sorely needs.

Making the shot hitscan gives the ranger actual functionality at max range against moving people, better filling the need for the long range marksman/sniper archetype currently missing from the ranger.

Associated Risks:
Overbuffing the damage combined with percent damage mods on next strike and autocrit could make this a great skill to snipe unaware light classes with, even if the charge time guarantees that it won’t be functional burst in real combat (see churning earth). Solve by placing an indicator on the ground visible to the target.

Atherakhia.4086:

All the time because people tend not to stomp in the middle of zergs. Instead they expect the AE to take care of the downed. But since I’m ranged and not in the middle of the zerg I often don’t get hit by too much AE.

Is your pet usually alive or dead? One is a serious disadvantage.

I usually get stomped. The servers I play against may be more points conscious. My pet is often stubbornly clinging on to life which means when I Lick Wounds, I watch my pet hobble slowly (crippled) back to me with like 10% health, and that 10% doesn’t last long when it tries to revive me.

If they make pets more resistant to AoE, then more and more rangers may find themselves in the predicament of being downed with the burden of a pet that is still alive.

rpfohr.7048:

Increase spirit active ability animation speed
The active effects come out too slow in order to time well. Increase speed or slightly buff their active effects. This will quicken the pace of spirits play and allow for better timing so you can energize your attacks with your weapons and pets

Good point here: the spirits use is very “passive” because of the difficulty in timing the active skill properly, but we should not forget the difficulty of positioning the spirits in the right spot even before thinking of using the active skill, that’s catchy too.

@ Arghore.

A dummy pet?
I still think u’r suggestion would ruing the class. So to a certain degree that I’d give up my main (wich is a ranger), that I have played from day one.

U’r suggestion would do 2 things.

1. creat unececary clutter on the screen since the dummie pet/Ranger Identification device would do nothing. It would be like having Another (bigger) mini that only rangers could have. Ppl Think the spirits clutter the screen today (despite them doing something)… and u wanna add anotehr thing that is just there cluttering up even more?

2. Ruin the bonding compeatly – since I wouldn’t actually be able to use my pet for anything. And it would go away during fight – thats where I WANT my PET, not some rubbish temporary summon.

The summoned things would just be like the Necro’s minions.

No. I DON’T want it like this.

We need an update from Allie to talk to us in regards to what options are on the table so we can start focalizing on unresolved issues/add suggestions.

Is permastow truly being considered in a serious manner?
This alone would open a plethora of new topics/refinements to the CDI and would also prevent the waste of countless posts on solutions/problems that aren’t given attention.

We need a detailed summary of what the developers want, otherwise we are shooting in the dark.

yep…I feel like being annoying this morning….

Atherakhia.4086:

The solution to WvW is to make the Ranger a complete class instead of the hobbled mess it is today.

It doesn’t have burst like every other class.

And we don’t need all of our weapons to have burst like every other class. If you want to burst, use greatsword.

Atherakhia.4086:

It doesn’t have AE like every other class.

Define this please, because I think our AE is fine for what it can do.

Atherakhia.4086:

It has no real access to hard CC like every other class.

We have a pull on Axe #4.
We have a Knockback, and a stun/daze on Greatsword #4 and #5.
We have a Knockback on Longbow #4
We have a Stun/Daze on Shortbow
We also have Canines and Pigs, both of which can Knockdown.
We also have the Wolf which can Fear
I would consider Immobilize a Hard CC as well because it stops enemy movement, and we have plenty of access to that

So what real access to Hard CC are you saying we don’t have access to?

Atherakhia.4086:

It can’t counter hard CC without an elite, and self only.

I would consider stun breakers a counter to hard CC. We have four, which is a little less than other professions have, but it is because of the nature of our utility skills (spirits….).
I would also consider evades a counter to just about anything including hard CC when timed right, and we have just as many evades as the Thief has access to.

Atherakhia.4086:

It’s soft CC is quite limited.

uh….sure?
We have more access to cripple than any other profession.
We also have more access to chill than any other profession except for Elementalists and Necromancers who should have more access to chill, by the very definition of what those two classes are.

Atherakhia.4086:

Almost all non-traited utility is on a dead pet.
Almost all traited utility is on dead spirits.

Huh?

Atherakhia.4086:

An inferior water field and a couple forms of immobilize is about all this class realistically offers and neither of these amount to anything in organized group settings.

Healing Spring’s water field has a 30% uptime, lasts 10 seconds, and removes conditions from allies. Please inform me what water field is superior to that? Or do you mean that silly little Healing Seed that Pigs can find for you?

yes, I do think rangers are in a bad spot, but nowhere near as bad as the borderline drama your post makes it out to be.

Linnael.1069:

Game Mode: PvX

Overview:
Replace Rapid Fire with “Power Shot” A charged up shot with the same charge time and total damage at each charge interval as rapid fire, but in one, very fast (instant hit) shot which applies vuln and cripples for 6s if fully charged.

Goals:
Bring interesting, theme fitting gameplay (stealth charging, better interaction with attack of opportunity/opening strike) to PvP/WvW and de-homogenize the damage to improve longbow performance against real players, without unnecessary buffs to PvE damage over time.

Functionality:
Rapid Fire as one charged hitscan arrow allows the ranger to better take advantage of the many traits and buffs that work on one hit (opening strike, moment of clarity) as well as actually use the stealth, opening up a good game play decision (do I sit here and charge or turn and gain distance).

Attaching a cripple or other control to a full charge rewards good choices with more kiting, which longbow sorely needs.

Making the shot hitscan gives the ranger actual functionality at max range against moving people, better filling the need for the long range marksman/sniper archetype currently missing from the ranger.

Associated Risks:
Overbuffing the damage combined with percent damage mods on next strike and autocrit could make this a great skill to snipe unaware light classes with, even if the charge time guarantees that it won’t be functional burst in real combat (see churning earth). Solve by placing an indicator on the ground visible to the target.

I cal already deal a 15k Maul pretty easy if my endurance is full and after using signets. Rapid fire normally deals close to that amount for me through the full channel, without signets. If it is a charge skill like this that deals all that damage at once, Signet of the Hunt, combined with Signet of the Wild, Rapid Fire can easily deal 30K damage. Add in a Sigil of Fire and a Sigil of Air (which might be possible next balance patch according to dev talk), it will deal 35K damage. add in 25 stacks of might and 25 stacks of vulnerability, and it could be dealing a total of 40-45K+ damage. I’m pretty sure that I could bring down veterans in one shot like that except for the obvious ones (like veteran giants).

I do not agree with this idea because I could use Hunter’s Shot to stealth myself, then just use the skill without a problem. Nothing will be able to escape a burst with damage that high. You also don’t even need to worry about vulnerability or cripple when the target is dead.

If you really want to replace Rapid fire with a ‘Burst’ option, then it would make more sense to take a look at Maul, then apply a ranged version of that skill to the Ranger.

Chrispy.5641:

yep…I feel like being annoying this morning….

Atherakhia.4086:

The solution to WvW is to make the Ranger a complete class instead of the hobbled mess it is today.

It doesn’t have burst like every other class.

And we don’t need all of our weapons to have burst like every other class. If you want to burst, use greatsword.

Atherakhia.4086:

It doesn’t have AE like every other class.

Define this please, because I think our AE is fine for what it can do.

Atherakhia.4086:

It has no real access to hard CC like every other class.

We have a pull on Axe #4.
We have a Knockback, and a stun/daze on Greatsword #4 and #5.
We have a Knockback on Longbow #4
We have a Stun/Daze on Shortbow
We also have Canines and Pigs, both of which can Knockdown.
We also have the Wolf which can Fear
I would consider Immobilize a Hard CC as well because it stops enemy movement, and we have plenty of access to that

So what real access to Hard CC are you saying we don’t have access to?

Atherakhia.4086:

It can’t counter hard CC without an elite, and self only.

I would consider stun breakers a counter to hard CC. We have four, which is a little less than other professions have, but it is because of the nature of our utility skills (spirits….).
I would also consider evades a counter to just about anything including hard CC when timed right, and we have just as many evades as the Thief has access to.

Atherakhia.4086:

It’s soft CC is quite limited.

uh….sure?
We have more access to cripple than any other profession.
We also have more access to chill than any other profession except for Elementalists and Necromancers who should have more access to chill, by the very definition of what those two classes are.

Atherakhia.4086:

Almost all non-traited utility is on a dead pet.
Almost all traited utility is on dead spirits.

Huh?

Atherakhia.4086:

An inferior water field and a couple forms of immobilize is about all this class realistically offers and neither of these amount to anything in organized group settings.

Healing Spring’s water field has a 30% uptime, lasts 10 seconds, and removes conditions from allies. Please inform me what water field is superior to that? Or do you mean that silly little Healing Seed that Pigs can find for you?

yes, I do think rangers are in a bad spot, but nowhere near as bad as the borderline drama your post makes it out to be.

1.) Not asking for every weapon to have burst. Just the power ones. GSword isn’t a realistic option for burst because other than maul, it’s a support weapon oriented more for control/defense and not offense. If the class had a Fast Hands trait, you’d have a point. It doesn’t, so you don’t.

2.)We have Barrage as our only real AE. That’s not enough. If you think it is I question how much time you spend actively playing WvW as a non-roamer.

3.) Axe pull is unreliable and no one runs it. GS interupt is too short of a range and misses often. No pet is functional in organized group combat so there goes the rest of your list. SB is an amazing (yet boring) weapon. I too consider immobilize a hard CC, thust he comment at the end of my OP.

4.) Stun breakers aren’t effective in larger settings given the current WvW meta. Perhaps if ANet takes some of the suggestions on the WvW forum into consideration (immunity for 2 seconds after break etc).

5.) Cripple… does anyone care? Anyone? Conditions lasting more than a second in WvW? Really?

6.) Healing Spring is fixed location in a mobile game. It’s a PBAE on a ranged class. Come on dude…

I think I covered your points? If I missed any just bring it back up.

Mmmm.
I can kind of see where Ath is coming from.

If your super-power is supposed to be ‘survival’, one would sort of expect a certain noteworthy mastery or access to the things that typically helps you survive. Keeping a limping pace with everybody else in all but butterfly kisses of soft AOE control is not exactly the stuff of a clear specialty.

Chrispy.5641:

Linnael.1069:

Game Mode: PvX

Overview:
Replace Rapid Fire with “Power Shot” A charged up shot with the same charge time and total damage at each charge interval as rapid fire, but in one, very fast (instant hit) shot which applies vuln and cripples for 6s if fully charged.

Goals:
Bring interesting, theme fitting gameplay (stealth charging, better interaction with attack of opportunity/opening strike) to PvP/WvW and de-homogenize the damage to improve longbow performance against real players, without unnecessary buffs to PvE damage over time.

Functionality:
Rapid Fire as one charged hitscan arrow allows the ranger to better take advantage of the many traits and buffs that work on one hit (opening strike, moment of clarity) as well as actually use the stealth, opening up a good game play decision (do I sit here and charge or turn and gain distance).

Attaching a cripple or other control to a full charge rewards good choices with more kiting, which longbow sorely needs.

Making the shot hitscan gives the ranger actual functionality at max range against moving people, better filling the need for the long range marksman/sniper archetype currently missing from the ranger.

Associated Risks:
Overbuffing the damage combined with percent damage mods on next strike and autocrit could make this a great skill to snipe unaware light classes with, even if the charge time guarantees that it won’t be functional burst in real combat (see churning earth). Solve by placing an indicator on the ground visible to the target.

I cal already deal a 15k Maul pretty easy if my endurance is full and after using signets. Rapid fire normally deals close to that amount for me through the full channel, without signets. If it is a charge skill like this that deals all that damage at once, Signet of the Hunt, combined with Signet of the Wild, Rapid Fire can easily deal 30K damage. Add in a Sigil of Fire and a Sigil of Air (which might be possible next balance patch according to dev talk), it will deal 35K damage. add in 25 stacks of might and 25 stacks of vulnerability, and it could be dealing a total of 40-45K+ damage. I’m pretty sure that I could bring down veterans in one shot like that except for the obvious ones (like veteran giants).

I do not agree with this idea because I could use Hunter’s Shot to stealth myself, then just use the skill without a problem. Nothing will be able to escape a burst with damage that high. You also don’t even need to worry about vulnerability or cripple when the target is dead.

If you really want to replace Rapid fire with a ‘Burst’ option, then it would make more sense to take a look at Maul, then apply a ranged version of that skill to the Ranger.

Given that rapid fire is a 4.5 second channel and hunters shot gives 3s stealth, the time to respond is more than reasonable. Anybody getting hit by this after a full channel of nearly 5s deserves to eat the associated damage. In PvE, the damage over time is not going to rise by much overall, given the long cooldowns on those supporting skills you use for one shot damage.

I’m thinking you might need to lower total damage by around 10-15 percent to make up for the interaction with attack of opportunity (tho this might be getting nerfed anyways), and lock movement during the charge, but its not nearly as strong as you think.

Single-shot buffs are a tiny fraction of PvE dps, and in WvW/PvP you’re just misleading people by giving them numbers with 25might/vuln, which you won’t be anywhere near even IF you can get anybody to eat more than the 60% charge you’ll be able to get out of stealth.

Keep in mind that no dps change at all would come to PvE besides more efficient attacks of opportunity/remorseless, and that if you want to use this on people with a full charge they have between 1.5 and 4.5 seconds to interrupt/blind/aegis/dodge/just straight up kill you.

Linnael.1069:

Given that rapid fire is a 4.5 second channel and hunters shot gives 3s stealth, the time to respond is more than reasonable. Anybody getting hit by this after a full channel of nearly 5s deserves to eat the associated damage. In PvE, the damage over time is not going to rise by much overall, given the long cooldowns on those supporting skills you use for one shot damage.

I’m thinking you might need to lower total damage by around 10-15 percent to make up for the interaction with attack of opportunity (tho this might be getting nerfed anyways), and lock movement during the charge, but its not nearly as strong as you think.

Single-shot buffs are a tiny fraction of PvE dps, and in WvW/PvP you’re just misleading people by giving them numbers with 25might/vuln, which you won’t be anywhere near even IF you can get anybody to eat more than the 60% charge you’ll be able to get out of stealth.

Keep in mind that no dps change at all would come to PvE besides more efficient attacks of opportunity/remorseless, and that if you want to use this on people with a full charge they have between 1.5 and 4.5 seconds to interrupt/blind/aegis/dodge/just straight up kill you.

Well, except that under the idea, I can take piercing arrows (since its still an arrow) and just aim at someone at the other end of a zerg, and kill anything in a stright line. No one is going to be able to pay attention to the sniping going on at the outer edges because of the chaos going on in the inside. Do they deserve to eat dirt too?

And if you make an exception for piercing arrows, how many more things will you be willing to make an exception on? How big will the list of special rules will the skill have?

Also, Interplay with Thieves or Mesmers can make stealth last much longer, leaving no chance to ever dodge or block it. While more of that interplay is needed in this game, not in the way you are suggesting.

Chrispy.5641:

Also, Interplay with Thieves or Mesmers can make stealth last much longer, leaving no chance to ever dodge or block it. While more of that interplay is needed in this game, not in the way you are suggesting.

Warriors with rifle get the same benefit from stealth with their F1 so it shouldn’t be problem.

Atherakhia.4086:

1.) Not asking for every weapon to have burst. Just the power ones. GSword isn’t a realistic option for burst because other than maul, it’s a support weapon oriented more for control/defense and not offense. If the class had a Fast Hands trait, you’d have a point. It doesn’t, so you don’t.

2.)We have Barrage as our only real AE. That’s not enough. If you think it is I question how much time you spend actively playing WvW as a non-roamer.

3.) Axe pull is unreliable and no one runs it. GS interupt is too short of a range and misses often. No pet is functional in organized group combat so there goes the rest of your list. SB is an amazing (yet boring) weapon. I too consider immobilize a hard CC, thust he comment at the end of my OP.

4.) Stun breakers aren’t effective in larger settings given the current WvW meta. Perhaps if ANet takes some of the suggestions on the WvW forum into consideration (immunity for 2 seconds after break etc).

5.) Cripple… does anyone care? Anyone? Conditions lasting more than a second in WvW? Really?

6.) Healing Spring is fixed location in a mobile game. It’s a PBAE on a ranged class. Come on dude…

I think I covered your points? If I missed any just bring it back up.

1. Well, Shortbow isn’t getting any burst, neither is axe (unless you count path of scars, but you say its not useful, so you don’t). The sword isn’t getting burst because of the evasive nature of it(unless they remove that). That leaves the Longbow, which probably won’t get a burst option (atleast not the one everyone keeps suggesting) due to reasons I already stated in this thread too many times to count, including a post or two ago. If Longbow should have a burst option, than a ranged version of Maul might be best.

2. Traps, Torches, and Axes. And I spend plenty of time playing WvW, small scale groups and large scale group. I don’t normally do much roaming.

Small Scale, Traps(and Bonfire from torch) are actually great for taking down any profession if smart timing and positioning is used, especially Thieves.

Large Scale, since everyone moves around so much, you can get a large amount of condition damage on a large amount of people. The fire fields are also useful.

If you want AE with a power option…, then no, we don’t really have those, and power-based traps should be added(could work), or some type of steep powerscaling should be applied to traps (which I am against, since it will reduce condition damage potential when balance considerations is taken into account for gear stats like Rampager)

3. Pets are not optimal, but that doesn’t make them useless. Wolfs and Drakehounds work just fine, and have no problem attacking moving enemies, unlike most other pets. They do need to change it to where pets are more useful without having to stack a billion cripples, chills, and immobilizes though.

4. If only….but, if the idea gets used, we won’t hear about it until a week before the patch hits, so people will continue to suggest it, and assume that Anet doesn’t listen.

5. You said we have limited soft CC, and Cripple is a soft CC. Is the problem more with the game design concerning soft cc or is it the profession itself?

6. Which is why I suggested last week that it be classified as a trap, so we can throw it if needed to allies, and make the radius larger. It is unreliable condition removal because there is a very good chance we move outside the radius a second after using, but that doesn’t make the water field useless. Also, Combo fields are kind of immobile to begin with in 99.9% of all cases.

Chrispy.5641:

Linnael.1069:

Given that rapid fire is a 4.5 second channel and hunters shot gives 3s stealth, the time to respond is more than reasonable. Anybody getting hit by this after a full channel of nearly 5s deserves to eat the associated damage. In PvE, the damage over time is not going to rise by much overall, given the long cooldowns on those supporting skills you use for one shot damage.

I’m thinking you might need to lower total damage by around 10-15 percent to make up for the interaction with attack of opportunity (tho this might be getting nerfed anyways), and lock movement during the charge, but its not nearly as strong as you think.

Single-shot buffs are a tiny fraction of PvE dps, and in WvW/PvP you’re just misleading people by giving them numbers with 25might/vuln, which you won’t be anywhere near even IF you can get anybody to eat more than the 60% charge you’ll be able to get out of stealth.

Keep in mind that no dps change at all would come to PvE besides more efficient attacks of opportunity/remorseless, and that if you want to use this on people with a full charge they have between 1.5 and 4.5 seconds to interrupt/blind/aegis/dodge/just straight up kill you.

Well, except that under the idea, I can take piercing arrows (since its still an arrow) and just aim at someone at the other end of a zerg, and kill anything in a stright line. No one is going to be able to pay attention to the sniping going on at the outer edges because of the chaos going on in the inside. Do they deserve to eat dirt too?

And if you make an exception for piercing arrows, how many more things will you be willing to make an exception on? How big will the list of special rules will the skill have?

Also, Interplay with Thieves or Mesmers can make stealth last much longer, leaving no chance to ever dodge or block it. While more of that interplay is needed in this game, not in the way you are suggesting.

Piercing the whole zerg with a single arrow?
1) LoS (line of sight) is not going to be taken off by the burst ability. Right now, the best cointer to piercing arrows is LoS… Sometimes, a little bump on the ground is cutting LoS… (event with straight shooting (not having an aim, just shooting in the direction the character is facing, I hardly pierce and damage more the 3-4 targets; 2-3 being the average… don’t thing a burst skill would be so different)
2) I doubt that even as burst it would down players unfocused by other players… most burst are at a single point to down/kill players… Just shooting thought will give bags, but nothing more.
3) retaliation?
If LoS wasnt’ a problem, and all pierced targets would be hit, I guess retal would be pretty bad…

arkealia.2713:

Chrispy.5641:

Also, Interplay with Thieves or Mesmers can make stealth last much longer, leaving no chance to ever dodge or block it. While more of that interplay is needed in this game, not in the way you are suggesting.

Warriors with rifle get the same benefit from stealth with their F1 so it shouldn’t be problem.

Killshot is also part of the Warrior’s Class mechanic, and also requires you to be standing still to use, meaning, even while in stealth, it is easy to counter.

If the suggestion wants this new skill to do the same thing, then I am immediately against it, because we already have a skill on longbow that requires us to be standing still. 2 skills on 1 weapon is way too far into overkill territory.

Iason Evan.3806:

I think an idea like “Strike As One” —An Elite Skill from GW1-- would be a good idea to implement. Basically the skill adds a shadow step to the pet. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Strike_as_one

This type of play would help mitigate the liability of the AI. In the original game it was a shout.

Strike as One was an important part of my “teleport flamingo at the enemy to set everyone on fire” GW1 strategy.

Such a function would be very handy in GW2 especially if you could follow up the teleport with a highly responsive F2 skill. Looking at our skills, Sic ’em could be a natural choice, but 2 things… Sic ’em, does not currently work with F2 skills (the F2 skills cancel the damage buff), and Sic ’em is very long range… the pet could teleport farther than thieves.

For a lot of people a pet shadowstep would be a great addition to Opening Strike, but you wouldn’t really want to add this function to anything that isn’t optional because some people may be using ranged pets they don’t want teleported into melee range.

Chrispy.5641:

arkealia.2713:

Chrispy.5641:

Also, Interplay with Thieves or Mesmers can make stealth last much longer, leaving no chance to ever dodge or block it. While more of that interplay is needed in this game, not in the way you are suggesting.

Warriors with rifle get the same benefit from stealth with their F1 so it shouldn’t be problem.

Killshot is also part of the Warrior’s Class mechanic, and also requires you to be standing still to use, meaning, even while in stealth, it is easy to counter.

If the suggestion wants this new skill to do the same thing, then I am immediately against it, because we already have a skill on longbow that requires us to be standing still. 2 skills on 1 weapon is way too far into overkill territory.

Allie already stated that they don’t want to add burst to ranger and they want to tone it down overall so it’s probably not gonna happen anyway.

Jocksy.3415:

Chrispy.5641:

Linnael.1069:

Given that rapid fire is a 4.5 second channel and hunters shot gives 3s stealth, the time to respond is more than reasonable. Anybody getting hit by this after a full channel of nearly 5s deserves to eat the associated damage. In PvE, the damage over time is not going to rise by much overall, given the long cooldowns on those supporting skills you use for one shot damage.

I’m thinking you might need to lower total damage by around 10-15 percent to make up for the interaction with attack of opportunity (tho this might be getting nerfed anyways), and lock movement during the charge, but its not nearly as strong as you think.

Single-shot buffs are a tiny fraction of PvE dps, and in WvW/PvP you’re just misleading people by giving them numbers with 25might/vuln, which you won’t be anywhere near even IF you can get anybody to eat more than the 60% charge you’ll be able to get out of stealth.

Keep in mind that no dps change at all would come to PvE besides more efficient attacks of opportunity/remorseless, and that if you want to use this on people with a full charge they have between 1.5 and 4.5 seconds to interrupt/blind/aegis/dodge/just straight up kill you.

Well, except that under the idea, I can take piercing arrows (since its still an arrow) and just aim at someone at the other end of a zerg, and kill anything in a stright line. No one is going to be able to pay attention to the sniping going on at the outer edges because of the chaos going on in the inside. Do they deserve to eat dirt too?

And if you make an exception for piercing arrows, how many more things will you be willing to make an exception on? How big will the list of special rules will the skill have?

Also, Interplay with Thieves or Mesmers can make stealth last much longer, leaving no chance to ever dodge or block it. While more of that interplay is needed in this game, not in the way you are suggesting.

Piercing the whole zerg with a single arrow?
1) LoS (line of sight) is not going to be taken off by the burst ability. Right now, the best cointer to piercing arrows is LoS… Sometimes, a little bump on the ground is cutting LoS… (event with straight shooting (not having an aim, just shooting in the direction the character is facing, I hardly pierce and damage more the 3-4 targets; 2-3 being the average… don’t thing a burst skill would be so different)
2) I doubt that even as burst it would down players unfocused by other players… most burst are at a single point to down/kill players… Just shooting thought will give bags, but nothing more.
3) retaliation?
If LoS wasnt’ a problem, and all pierced targets would be hit, I guess retal would be pretty bad…

All arrows in any bow attack share the same characteristics no matter how many enemies it hits. Its why Point Blank Shot can knock back everything it hits, and its why Concussion Shot can stun/daze everything it hits. Unless an exception is made, this alternate Rapid Fire will deal 40K+ damage to everything it hits, which will down everything. In the Center of Stonemist (flat ground), I can do quite a bit of damage with Piercing arrows because of this. You need to be aiming at someone on the opposite side of the zerg, not whoever is infront of you.

Having a skill on Longbow that requires a 4.5 second charge time, just so we can have a burst option (when our class is not supposed to be about burst) is ridiculous no matter what lame justifications you guys keep trying to make.

Chrispy.5641:

Jocksy.3415:

Chrispy.5641:

Linnael.1069:

Given that rapid fire is a 4.5 second channel and hunters shot gives 3s stealth, the time to respond is more than reasonable. Anybody getting hit by this after a full channel of nearly 5s deserves to eat the associated damage. In PvE, the damage over time is not going to rise by much overall, given the long cooldowns on those supporting skills you use for one shot damage.

I’m thinking you might need to lower total damage by around 10-15 percent to make up for the interaction with attack of opportunity (tho this might be getting nerfed anyways), and lock movement during the charge, but its not nearly as strong as you think.

Single-shot buffs are a tiny fraction of PvE dps, and in WvW/PvP you’re just misleading people by giving them numbers with 25might/vuln, which you won’t be anywhere near even IF you can get anybody to eat more than the 60% charge you’ll be able to get out of stealth.

Keep in mind that no dps change at all would come to PvE besides more efficient attacks of opportunity/remorseless, and that if you want to use this on people with a full charge they have between 1.5 and 4.5 seconds to interrupt/blind/aegis/dodge/just straight up kill you.

Well, except that under the idea, I can take piercing arrows (since its still an arrow) and just aim at someone at the other end of a zerg, and kill anything in a stright line. No one is going to be able to pay attention to the sniping going on at the outer edges because of the chaos going on in the inside. Do they deserve to eat dirt too?

And if you make an exception for piercing arrows, how many more things will you be willing to make an exception on? How big will the list of special rules will the skill have?

Also, Interplay with Thieves or Mesmers can make stealth last much longer, leaving no chance to ever dodge or block it. While more of that interplay is needed in this game, not in the way you are suggesting.

Piercing the whole zerg with a single arrow?
1) LoS (line of sight) is not going to be taken off by the burst ability. Right now, the best cointer to piercing arrows is LoS… Sometimes, a little bump on the ground is cutting LoS… (event with straight shooting (not having an aim, just shooting in the direction the character is facing, I hardly pierce and damage more the 3-4 targets; 2-3 being the average… don’t thing a burst skill would be so different)
2) I doubt that even as burst it would down players unfocused by other players… most burst are at a single point to down/kill players… Just shooting thought will give bags, but nothing more.
3) retaliation?
If LoS wasnt’ a problem, and all pierced targets would be hit, I guess retal would be pretty bad…

All arrows in any bow attack share the same characteristics no matter how many enemies it hits. Its why Point Blank Shot can knock back everything it hits, and its why Concussion Shot can stun/daze everything it hits. Unless an exception is made, this alternate Rapid Fire will deal 40K+ damage to everything it hits, which will down everything. In the Center of Stonemist (flat ground), I can do quite a bit of damage with Piercing arrows because of this. You need to be aiming at someone on the opposite side of the zerg, not whoever is infront of you.

Having a skill on Longbow that requires a 4.5 second charge time, just so we can have a burst option (when our class is not supposed to be about burst) is ridiculous no matter what lame justifications you guys keep trying to make.

fyi, without auto-targetting, shooting with no target selected shoots at max range straight in front of the char… no need to target at the end of the world… Useful option when someone is zigzagging to avoid the shots… just shoot in the direction that player will be…
And where did you see it would deal 40k damage? No attack can be that strong, balance-wise… it needs to be higher than AA, but I don’t believe anyone said it should one-shot PVT warriors…
Would never use an attack that could one-shot me if reflected…

Chrispy.5641:

arkealia.2713:

Chrispy.5641:

Also, Interplay with Thieves or Mesmers can make stealth last much longer, leaving no chance to ever dodge or block it. While more of that interplay is needed in this game, not in the way you are suggesting.

Warriors with rifle get the same benefit from stealth with their F1 so it shouldn’t be problem.

Killshot is also part of the Warrior’s Class mechanic, and also requires you to be standing still to use, meaning, even while in stealth, it is easy to counter.

If the suggestion wants this new skill to do the same thing, then I am immediately against it, because we already have a skill on longbow that requires us to be standing still. 2 skills on 1 weapon is way too far into overkill territory.

I dunno if you’re aware, but the total power ratio on rapid fire would only exceed kill shot by 0.5 power. Kill shot is a 1.75 second cast with 1500 range baseline and piercing with 1 trait. Do you see thief warrior gank squads stealth sniping people all day? No, because its so easily avoidable, even tho kill shot is even easier to stealth cover.

Its also not a 4.5 second requirement. Knowing when release charge and shoot early is another point of skillful play. The balancing point lies in that; its expected that people will only ever allow you to land shots with about 3s of charge at the best, or about 60 percent of a whole rapid fire.

Essentially, stop being concerned by the best possible case. If you can set up that best case shot that’s good playing and deserves to be differentiated from bad playing, unlike the behavior of the current rapid fire which is just pew pew. Use the one shot well and you’ve got a really useful execute. Use badly and its alot easier to respond to than rapid fire’s arrow spam.

And consider the other side of your arguments. You have a stealth thief to cover you? You target could team up with a mace shield guardian. Good luck landing that hit. Got a zerg to cover you? You target has a zerg spamming protection, retaliation, and aoe shields doesn’t he?

I’m amenable to numbers changes and such but the core concept, summing up rapid fire, should be considered on a mechanical level. Assuming the devs tune the numbers, all I see coming out of it, even in your posts, is more options, more interesting decisions, more teammate interaction, and all with plenty of counter play for little PvE balance cost.

And stop using your inflated PvE numbers for WvW objections. Your perfect case dungeon boss numbers aren’t ever going to happen, especially not if you’re opening with it in a gank.

@Arghore
Part 1

Lightning Reflexes isn’t too powerful that way. Just increase (what I haven’t mentioned, because Cooldown Times, ect. are something that Anet should decide, its their balancing part) for the merge the Cooldown Time from 40s to 50s (the merged skill has kitten and everything is fine.
If you use the trait, that reduces Survival Utilitly by 20%, you would be able to get it back down to 40s, but then you would have an incentive to use that trait.
Maybe remove one of the conditions that it should cure, but I just feel, a skill with that effect and name should just do that, what I suggested.
You know, when I make skill/suggestions ect. I very much look first onto the names of the skills ect. and think about it, what for effects would be perfectly fitting to that skill name.

About the Spirits:

again here, my ideas just followed after the names of the skills. the Elements are a part of our NATURE, so its absolutely obvious and normal, that Skills of the Nature Spirits look a bit similar to Elementalist Skills.

I based the Sun Spirit on light, because thats what the nature on the sun is providing us in the first view, but light, if intense can also burn you, because it creates heat to the point, that materia catches fire if it gets too hot.
Frost (Ice/Cold) in review of nature is just a temperature, the opposite of heat.

However..
If Anet would want the Spirits to be more “Nature” based, then they would have to be all related basically on flora and fauna only, because thats the only part based on “Nature Magic”, that has nothing to do with the elements of nature and even that is with flora really nearly kitten the borderline, as plants require earth, water and light to grow and without plants, theres no life at all, no light, no photosynthesis = no oxygen to be able to breath at all…

I don’t see my Spirit Suggestions as Engineer Backpacks, more like conjured weapons, only with the difference, that they have directly an effect on the ranger and passively affect differently their nearby allies.
Backpacks work differently, they are of no support like the spirits or the conjured weapons, that can be shared with allies by lettign them have the same temporay different weapon skills. The effect of the weapon skill change affects here only the Ranger, not other allies and the effects can be removed, if the enemy kills the nature spirit.
However again, this doesn’t mean, that there couldn’t exist also Forest, Desert, or Marsh Spirits also too with different weapon skills to provide the Ranger different tactical temporary weapon skills to improve this way the build versatility of the ranger.

Id designed the Spirits also extra this way just to give Rangers a few more nice skilsl to extend their tactical skill repertoire for the combats, because as rangers are now, they feel imo very lacking of build diversity in my opinion. Spirits that extend their skill range would heavily improve this in a good way and would especially make Rangers that are played like “Druids” alot more interesting and make their whole Nature Magic-Theme gameplay more flavorful to that kind of theme.

about the 2 stealth related survival utility skill suggestions, I designed them extra with these effects, having thieves back in mind, because I main a thief self.
If I would want to give Rangers more Stealth Gameplay, like with these 2 suggestions, then I would also still want to ensure, that Thiefs will stay always the most absolute unparalled superior Stealth Class of all, because they are the real masters of Stealth and no ranger utility should change this fact.
Thats the reason why Camouflage should be only a long stealth, that ends on move, because this skill should be alot more about surprise and hiding from danger, not be for stalking a victim to stab them to death.
Rangers need to use stealth in a complete different way, than thiefs use it. Their gameplay needs to become around stealth completely different.
Same as like an Engineer should use Stealth in a total different way, than a Thief.