Guild Wars 2

Part 2:

I know fully well, that AoE’s can damage stealthed players, but its still on a matter on how smart the player behind the ranger is in regard of using the utility skilsl at the right moment.
If you naturally use Camouflage in a moment, where an enemy could see you using it and where you used it, its no miracle that you will get bombarded at that place then with AoE. But if you use it in a wise moment, where the enemy couldn’t see it, that you use it and wherre, then its a good and helpful skill, that can decide over it, if you survive, or not, or if you can surprise a reckless foe with a powerful burst out of the stealth with your long bow, or not.
Think about a cliffside, where a foe couldn’t see, where you camouflaged and that foe runs to the cliff to just look, if you jumped down and you surprise that foe out of stealth with the longbow’s launching shot to blast that foe down the cliff into death, wouldn’t that be fun???

Further more, I have two questions:
- one of the things noted was that the ranger does ‘not’ have a lot of condition removal, i don’t see you deal with that.
- Another thing is that ranger do not seem to have a lot of reliable party support, I do not see you deal with that either… ? …

I think you need to read again, I made suggestions that include effects for Condition removal. I also made suggestions for effects that would improve party support.

Signet of Stone: active, reduces Condition Durations by 25% as long its effect is up, its a kind of indirect condition removal for all conditions, if they simply last only 3/4th of the time on you in that moment, than normal.

Lightning Reflexes currently removes 0 conditions, its just a backwards dodge that deals damage basically. Here I added removal effects for CC conditions, like chill, cripple, knockdown, whats something that already several people before me have suggested. But not maybe also with the mergign of sharpening under a new enhanced upgraded shared effect based on an added fury for lettign the trigger effect for the bleedings happen, so that the skill in general is interstign for both, high as like low crit builds

Stone Barrier from my Stone Spirit Suggestion cures Conditions and is a party support, as it protects allies from damage, like an environmental aegis, that prevents damage, until the barrier is destroyed.

Frozen Soil and Ice Mirror are also Party Suport Skills, same as like Storm Wind or Blizzard.
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About my refillment utility skill suggestions that should close the created gaps with new utilities:

Root Whips would make up for a perfect CC party support, same as like Toxic Flowers and Call of the Nature

and last part @ Arghore

Under the Preparations, Survival Kit is a huge party support, as it provides short durated environmental random buff food/buff item effects, whats something, that currently no class can do and would make rangers more unique.
Yes, here its mechanic is based basically on the engineer, but what should it, rangers and engineers can also use stealth..and? its no doom of the world, if rangers would have under preparations one skills, that works similar to an enginneer kit, because it would just fit so much to the class, as survivalitsts to have survival kits with them, that work basically like random lunch packs (that could support also allies, theres no rule, that a ranger can’t share their provisions with others :P) ^^

Signet of Beast Mastery would solve also the perma stow problem, plus improving rangers into becoming more real beast masters, which need to require to control at least 2 pets at the same time to be worthy to be called beast masters in my opinion at all..anyone who can control at any given time only 1 pet, is hardly only lesser than a cheap dompteur maybe, or a tamer, but not a real beast master. beast masters control more than one pet at the same time.
And if you let your pets perform their combo skillls, they will be stowed both until the ski has recharged. So if you want to get rid of your pets for some time permanently, use the active signet effec,t let them perform their combo and disappear for soem minute,s until the signet recharges. problem solved. temporarely perma stowed pets plus real beast master = win/win for all and rangers stay true to their core design.

Necros run around permanently with 6 Minions, so it should be not a problem to rebalance rangers on having maximum 2 pets at the same time.
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Smell of the Hidden roots you, but you gain protection, so if someone should try to attack you, while you locate stealthed foes, you will receive 33% lesser damage. This suggestion is balanced. Especially when used together with Camouflage, what would make Rangers with pets and the new merged Signet of the Hunt as I suggested it extremely useful in WvW agaisnt every thief there is and turn the class basically with that build into the mostz perfect anti-stealth class as a counter balance build.

However, nobody says, that there couldn’t be also a trait for those 2 survival utility to add to them a bit more moveability for the price of having somewhere an other trait effect not as a counter balance. Its always a giving an gettign with game balance.

If you give a class something, you need to take somewhere also something from it.

Jocksy.3415:

fyi, without auto-targetting, shooting with no target selected shoots at max range straight in front of the char… no need to target at the end of the world… Useful option when someone is zigzagging to avoid the shots… just shoot in the direction that player will be…
And where did you see it would deal 40k damage? No attack can be that strong, balance-wise… it needs to be higher than AA, but I don’t believe anyone said it should one-shot PVT warriors…
Would never use an attack that could one-shot me if reflected…

I saw that it could potentially deal 40K damage at the point the suggestion said that it deals the same damage as Rapid Fire does now, only all at once.

Linnael.1069:

Replace Rapid Fire with “Power Shot” A charged up shot with the same charge time and total damage at each charge interval as rapid fire, but in one, very fast (instant hit) shot which applies vuln and cripples for 6s if fully charged.

I can get Rapid Fire to deal about 15K damage to almost anything with a full zerker build, with food, and 25 stacks of bloodlust, and as many damage increasing traits as possible (if you are not using that to max. your damage in WvW, don’t you dare lecture me on inflated PvE numbers Linnael)

Maul normally hits for 6-8K on the same build (maxed out again, for those who either don’t do it, or are too cheap to afford the proper food and sigils to do it), with Signet of the Wild and an Attack of Opportunity, it hits for between 11-15K depending on how much Armor the enemy has. That’s almost a 100% increase in damage. (infact, the attached picture shows me doing more than that.)

So, if you want to deal all of Rapid Fire’s damage at once, it deals about 15K (sometimes less if fighting against a heavy armor profession, sometimes it can deal more if you have enemy immobilized and all attacks hit). If you can get that much damage all at once, it can be abused by people like me.

Use a signet of the Wild and an Attack of opportunity, then it will deal upwards of 30K damage. If you add in Air and Fire sigils (which, like I said, it will probably be possible in the feature patch, the devs have stated that they are working on it), which can deal quite a bit of bonus damage (as shown in attached pic, lightning strike from air sigil is dealing 3,100 bonus damage). The damage total can go up to 35K. with full might and vulnerability, the damage could be much higher.

Linnael.1069:

I dunno if you’re aware, but the total power ratio on rapid fire would only exceed kill shot by 0.5 power. Kill shot is a 1.75 second cast with 1500 range baseline and piercing with 1 trait. Do you see thief warrior gank squads stealth sniping people all day? No, because its so easily avoidable, even tho kill shot is even easier to stealth cover.

Actually, I have seen that interaction between thieves and warriors. Its very effective too, when thieves and warriors are actually working together. Still easy to avoid though. Also, Warriors don’t get a 50% damage increase on top of a 25% damage increase. Rangers do, and your failure to take that into account is all too telling.

Linnael.1069:

I’m amenable to numbers changes and such but the core concept, summing up rapid fire, should be considered on a mechanical level. Assuming the devs tune the numbers, all I see coming out of it, even in your posts, is more options, more interesting decisions, more teammate interaction, and all with plenty of counter play for little PvE balance cost.

Less options actually. Rapid Fire is actually useful for Crit Procs because there is alot of them in those 4.5 seconds. If it turns into an all at once damage spike, then those rapid crit procs no longer exist.

Linnael.1069:

And stop using your inflated PvE numbers for WvW objections. Your perfect case dungeon boss numbers aren’t ever going to happen, especially not if you’re opening with it in a gank.

At the attached screenshot shows, numbers are not inflated. Maybe you should take a second to think about what happens to an idea like this in a best-case-scenario, because people like me are going to exploit it, and abuse it, and then Anet is going to nerf it back to what Rapid Fire is now, and then people like you are going to complain about it, starting the cycle all over again.

What we need isn’t a solution that can be so easily abused like I just showed you. What we need is a solution that is both balanced and fair, and doesn’t have the opportunity to be so abused that it takes a nerf, and becomes just as useless (to you) as the original rapid fire is now.

Game Mode: PVE

Goal: To provide smooth game play on Longbow with its skill sets and rework some of its skills to even-out the damage, currently, most Rangers find that auto attacking is better than using other skills in LB and that is not right.

Function

Longbow

2. Rapid Fire make so that it is casts faster, this can be done by reducing shots fired from 10 to 5 arrows dealing vulnerability each hit that lasts for 8 seconds, in time to shoot 3 more auto attacks with bonus 5% damage. Increase damage coefficient to compensate. Devs might also want to consider reducing recharge time of this skill to 8s untraited.

3. Make so that it also provides swiftness to the player.

4. Might want to increase range to 1200, for a Power Ranger this is comparable to GW1 Ranger Quick Shot, making it possible to reset auto attack to increase consistent damage to foe. Reduce recharge time to 10 secs as this is LB’s only gap increaser.

5. Reduce shots fired from 12 to 6 arrows, compensate damage by increasing power coefficient per arrows. Reduce recharge of skill to 20secs. Please consider, because this is the most underused skill for LB

Risks: Might promote skill spamming in game instead of auto attacking.

Chrispy.5641:

Jocksy.3415:

…

Linnael.1069:

(if you are not using that to max. your damage in WvW, don’t you dare lecture me on inflated PvE numbers Linnael)

Linnael.1069:

Linnael.1069:

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Linnael.1069:

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I think we are basically on the same page in regards to Ranger strength…..that Rangers aren’t terrible, that a few light tweaks is likely all they need. I also agree there are far too many “suggestions” that are obviously over powered.

Still man, take a chill pill. That arrogance is a tad over the top. Many Rangers have done the one shot wonder thing. It’s good for giggles, but not really sustainable. Add to the fact that a strong breeze will kill you is likely the reason more don’t do it. That screen shot is nice damage, but very very highly likely against an up leveled character. So hardly proof to support your thesis

….and once…in north camp… I had a 98k Maul on a rabbit !

Chrispy.5641:

Jocksy.3415:

…

Linnael.1069:

(if you are not using that to max. your damage in WvW, don’t you dare lecture me on inflated PvE numbers Linnael)

Linnael.1069:

Linnael.1069:

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Linnael.1069:

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Forzani.2584:

I think we are basically on the same page in regards to Ranger strength…..that Rangers aren’t terrible, that a few light tweaks is likely all they need. I also agree there are far too many “suggestions” that are obviously over powered.

Still man, take a chill pill. That arrogance is a tad over the top. Many Rangers have done the one shot wonder thing. It’s good for giggles, but not really sustainable. Add to the fact that a strong breeze will kill you is likely the reason more don’t do it. That screen shot is nice damage, but very very highly likely against an up leveled character. So hardly proof to support your thesis

….and once…in north camp… I had a 98k Maul on a rabbit !

That arrogance I think is just the right amount, because it doesn’t matter if its sustainable or not, if its a 1 trick pony or not. The fact remains, no matter what the argument for it is…the potential for it to be exploited and abused is still there, must be considered, and cannot be ignored.

And 98K? Ptfff….

lol yea, but Rabbits are more beefy ….and I am at work, so had to pull a damage # out of my kitten

Atherakhia.4086:

LOL! Best of luck with any improvements to our downed state. It’s the only thing most everyone can agree on being overpowered.

We /try to/ play WWW. Only scenario it works good is when 1v1, or you manage to die where nobody looking at. It can’t outheal any zerg output btw, and thats good, but a single “pull me away 10meter please” addon on skill activation would be a very kind gift from Devs. Just like Warrior GS#3 spinning works.
This simple modification can help a lot when dieing under enviromental effect (lava, rockfalls, etc), and in WWW, that little plus it gives would also save us 1 of 10 times.

Chrispy.5641:

You think you’re going to be “abusing this” somehow? People like me are going to be abusing you up and down the map as you try to rig up your 40k shot.

Oh look, I can make groundless statements about personal skill too.

On the real topic, you’re still talking numbers on a discussion that should be all about mechanics.

In regards to the killshot warrior example, there’s a reason its not dominating the roam scene. Because it sucks kitten . Why don’t people just get two warriors and a thief together and go around selecting targets to die? Because obviously, according to yourself, this type of thing is “easy to avoid”

Everything has abuse potential. Good game design allows players who know exactly what they are doing to enjoy the reward that goes along with that skill, while giving intelligent opponents the counterplay options to effectively shut them down if they also know the right thing to do. Then it becomes the interesting tactical strategies that define who’s options work out and who’s don’t, rather than a by the numbers homogeneous “my damage flow is faster than you can kill me so I win” kind of thing.

In regards to the other examples, well, you haven’t responded to them.

All you’re saying is that if you stack up every possible advantage, then in select cases, after you’ve grinded out bonus stats and bad players have ignored the options to deny your damage then you can do alot of damage. Breaking news this is not. This is exactly what should happen.

If you have the stats and the skill to line up that kind of a shot when by your own admissions plenty of counterplay exists, then by merit of your skill and your enemy’s lack of skill you deserve to feel like you’re abusing somebody. We’re not trying to give green upscales a fair fight here, because thats not what fair is about. Fair is about giving you the option to utterly destroy somebody, but also giving them the option to utterly deny you, and seeing who can do it better.

Fair is not about the maximum possible numbers you can pull when people don’t take advantage of any of those options.

You set up every damage boost possible and somebody doesn’t see you get into range, doesn’t notice the stealthing arrow, doesn’t notice you for 1.5 seconds after the stealth wears off, stays within range the whole time, and is wearing glass without the defensive utility to back it up? Yea, I’d say 40k is about right.

What I find more concerning is your supposition that somehow the mechanics of this change are worse than current. You honestly think the loss of the fire rate is a significant loss compared to the stealth play, risk/gain considerations, and counterplay? Crit proc sigils are basically going off on-cooldown anyways, and besides thats not even a gameplay consideration. When do you ever not want your on crit sigils activating? When have you ever said “I wonder if I should rapid fire right now” because you were considering your proc rate? A good 90% of the offensive gameplay on the longbow right now is just auto attack or shoot faster for a little bit. I dunno if you consider pew-pew faster for a while a deep and engaging gameplay option, but it could definitely be more.

Linnael.1069:

Chrispy.5641:

You’re still talking numbers on a discussion that should be all about mechanics.

In regards to the killshot warrior example, there’s a reason its not dominating the roam scene. Because it sucks kitten . Why don’t people just get two warriors and a thief together and go around selecting targets to die? Because obviously, according to yourself, this type of thing is “easy to avoid”

In regards to the other examples, well, you haven’t responded to them.

All you’re saying is that if you stack up every possible advantage, then in select cases, after you’ve grinded out bonus stats and people have ignored the options to deny your damage you can do alot of damage. Breaking news this is not.

You think you’re going to be “abusing this” somehow? People like me are going to be abusing you up and down the map as you try to rig up your 40k shot.

Oh look, I can make groundless statements about personal skill too.

What I find more concerning is your supposition that somehow the mechanics of this change are worse than current. You honestly think the loss of the fire rate is a significant loss compared to the stealth play, risk/gain considerations, and counterplay? Crit proc sigils are basically going off on-cooldown anyways, and besides thats not even a gameplay consideration. When do you ever not want your on crit sigils activating? When have you ever said “I wonder if I should rapid fire right now” because you were considering your proc rate? A good 90% of the offensive gameplay on the longbow right now is just auto attack or shoot faster for a little bit. I dunno if you consider the pew-pew faster for a while a deep and engaging gameplay option, but it could definitely be more.

Okay, lets talk mechanics. You didn’t specify whether or not we could move when using this attack, or if we had to stand still. I’m going to assume we can move, since you specifically said this attack would make us more useful against moving targets, which, doesn’t really work well when you are standing still (if we stand still, what’s the point. I already pointed out how stupid it would be to have 2 stationary skills on one weapon). So…..say I’m up on a wall in WvW, and people are attacking. Well, if I can move, I’m not just going to stand there!

I am first going to target someone attacking the gate/wall. Then I am going to stand back and use all my damage increasing signets before charging the skill, while someone is targeted. Then, when its almost done, I will run up to the edge of the wall, and time my jump just before the skill goes off so the enemy is in my line of sight. Then…. BAM!!!, massive damage spike on someone, who literally didn’t see it coming. Oh look! You never even had the chance to “abuse” me while I still abused the skill to its maximum effect!

The Mechanics of the skill suck, no matter how you put it. Change the idea already!

I think the shortbow needs the most help damagewise, the AA damage is painfully low.
I can hit for barely 2k while a thief can hit constant for over 4k.
Some reasons why this is stupid:
1. We’re supposed to be the archer class, the thief isn’t. So in my opinion, we should deal more damage with the AA than the thief is doing.
2. The main damagesource of the ranger shortbow is the AA, while the thief shortbow is meant to hit harder with his skills other than his AA.

Chrispy.5641:

Linnael.1069:

Chrispy.5641:

You’re still talking numbers on a discussion that should be all about mechanics.

In regards to the killshot warrior example, there’s a reason its not dominating the roam scene. Because it sucks kitten . Why don’t people just get two warriors and a thief together and go around selecting targets to die? Because obviously, according to yourself, this type of thing is “easy to avoid”

In regards to the other examples, well, you haven’t responded to them.

All you’re saying is that if you stack up every possible advantage, then in select cases, after you’ve grinded out bonus stats and people have ignored the options to deny your damage you can do alot of damage. Breaking news this is not.

You think you’re going to be “abusing this” somehow? People like me are going to be abusing you up and down the map as you try to rig up your 40k shot.

Oh look, I can make groundless statements about personal skill too.

What I find more concerning is your supposition that somehow the mechanics of this change are worse than current. You honestly think the loss of the fire rate is a significant loss compared to the stealth play, risk/gain considerations, and counterplay? Crit proc sigils are basically going off on-cooldown anyways, and besides thats not even a gameplay consideration. When do you ever not want your on crit sigils activating? When have you ever said “I wonder if I should rapid fire right now” because you were considering your proc rate? A good 90% of the offensive gameplay on the longbow right now is just auto attack or shoot faster for a little bit. I dunno if you consider the pew-pew faster for a while a deep and engaging gameplay option, but it could definitely be more.

Okay, lets talk mechanics. You didn’t specify whether or not we could move when using this attack, or if we had to stand still. I’m going to assume we can move, since you specifically said this attack would make us more useful against moving targets, which, doesn’t really work well when you are standing still (if we stand still, what’s the point. I already pointed out how stupid it would be to have 2 stationary skills on one weapon). So…..say I’m up on a wall in WvW, and people are attacking. Well, if I can move, I’m not just going to stand there!

I am first going to target someone attacking the gate/wall. Then I am going to stand back and use all my damage increasing signets before charging the skill, while someone is targeted. Then, when its almost done, I will run up to the edge of the wall, and time my jump just before the skill goes off so the enemy is in my line of sight. Then…. BAM!!!, massive damage spike on someone, who literally didn’t see it coming. Oh look! You never even had the chance to “abuse” me while I still abused the skill to its maximum effect!

The Mechanics of the skill suck, no matter how you put it. Change the idea already!

I think there was a misunderstanding, and I may have forgotten it in my original post, but I’m operating under the assumption that this attack will lock player movement. The fact that it is hitscan will mitigate the loss of effectiveness at maximum range due to strafing, which is what i mean by “will help against moving targets.”

I will admit that this is overpowered if player movement remains unhindered during channel, due to just such scenarios as you mentioned.

Perhaps if you cut the base damage down to 30% of what it is, and made the damage scale like heartseeker, up to the current rapid fire. The cheap oneshot potential is effectively removed and its interesting without being too complicating. Call it “Blood-Scenting Bow” or something for flavor.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

I think the shortbow needs the most help damagewise, the AA damage is painfully low.
I can hit for barely 2k while a thief can hit constant for over 4k.
Some reasons why this is stupid:
1. We’re supposed to be the archer class, the thief isn’t. So in my opinion, we should deal more damage with the AA than the thief is doing.
2. The main damagesource of the ranger shortbow is the AA, while the thief shortbow is meant to hit harder with his skills other than his AA.

Your pet is supposedly making up the difference.

((sigh))

Can we get a rough idea of how long its going to take to fix rangers once the changes have been decided?

Nike.2631:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

I think the shortbow needs the most help damagewise, the AA damage is painfully low.
I can hit for barely 2k while a thief can hit constant for over 4k.
Some reasons why this is stupid:
1. We’re supposed to be the archer class, the thief isn’t. So in my opinion, we should deal more damage with the AA than the thief is doing.
2. The main damagesource of the ranger shortbow is the AA, while the thief shortbow is meant to hit harder with his skills other than his AA.

Your pet is supposedly making up the difference.

((sigh))

Yeah, but even if the pet would be able to do so, we would still just deal the same damage as the thief with the AA. The thief on the other hand has even more damage and a port as abilities. And we should be the archers, not the thief.

kiwituatara.6053:

Can we get a rough idea of how long its going to take to fix rangers once the changes have been decided?

Its not a given ANYTHING seen in this thread will happen. It’s a discussion of ideas. Timelines are not even vaguely on the table.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Also, I don’t want this thread to be entirely about pets. We’ve seen a ton of great feedback about them, and I would like to hear more about utilities that need help (and aren’t viable unless spec’d into) as I haven’t seen as much on that front!

Thanks all

Signets: Signet of the Beastmaster (grandmaster trait) is needed to get the active effects on Ranger. There are already many suggestions about this. The ranger is also the only class (from all those using signets) without a healing signet, this reduce the effect of builds using signet traits (or 6x Superior Rune of Resistance) compared to other class.

Piercing Arrow: only good ranged AoE option we have (I mean high range). In WvW you mostly have to rely on Barrage before you get this. There are a lot of ideas here to improve AoE options for this class.

Opening Strike: not great before you get Remorseless (grandmaster trait). Without this trait it’s only good for short 1vs1 fights (mostly normal pve mobs) and sadly Remorseless only looks decent with a Longbow.

Condition removal: poor options outside of Empathic Bond which again is a grandmaster trait. There are many discussions about condition removal in this thread and somes are very good, take a look.

Traps: Traps effective area before they’re triggered is too small and easily missable and you need a Master trait to increase this area. Just increasing the area a bit (same as marks for exemple) would help.

Shouts: Outside of “Sic’Em” the other shouts are not much used and “Guard” is probably only used with the recent Nature’s Voice trait (gransmaster again). The trait is not really at fault here, the shouts are not great to begin with.

Fortifying Bond:The pet is already stealing a bit of our DPS and not getting the benefits of sigils/runes/gear/food and we have to invest 15 points to get it to benefits from our boons. Moving this to Adept would be a good step, removing it from traits to make it an inate mechanism would be even better.

kiwituatara.6053:

Can we get a rough idea of how long its going to take to fix rangers once the changes have been decided?

We’ve been this bad for a year and a half or so already so I guess you could just extrapolate from there.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

I think the shortbow needs the most help damagewise, the AA damage is painfully low.
I can hit for barely 2k while a thief can hit constant for over 4k.
Some reasons why this is stupid:
1. We’re supposed to be the archer class, the thief isn’t. So in my opinion, we should deal more damage with the AA than the thief is doing.
2. The main damagesource of the ranger shortbow is the AA, while the thief shortbow is meant to hit harder with his skills other than his AA.

Lets stop with the exaggeration here. It isn’t like thieves have an amazing ranged options. They only have 900 ranged options.

As for the thief shortbow, with an almost full ascended zerker build, its auto attack hits for 1.5-1.9k when it crits. Sure cluster bomb may hit for 4k, but it is extremely slow, and unlikely to hit mobile opponents who are awake unless used as point blank range, at which a sword or a dagger is much more efficient.

This feeling that shortbow thieves have a better ranged option than rangers seems random, especially since rangers have a 1500 range option, 600 more range than a thief can attack from.

If you have to complain/compare about another ranged weapon on a different class, at least point at warriors with their longbows and rifles. Both are more useful in a fight than a thief’s shortbow.

Entangle would appear to be the perfect elite when speccing for condition damage, but The Charzooka has been far more satisfying in WvW. Part of it is because human players seem to not suffer much real impact from Entangle. The other part is because the skills on the Charzooka are sort of like a Condition Longbow. If you don’t use the auto-attack, and alternate with throwing traps, you can put down a steady stream of aoe output, and if you are specced for bleed on crit, you have a lot of chances to crit.

• Skill 1, like ours is a 1200 range projectile, but it has a much taller arc allowing it to hit people farther back on top of a wall, and it sets them on fire.
• Skill 2, like ours, is a channeled projectile shooting attack, but these knock enemies away in a cone and cause a ton of interrupts
• Skill 3, like ours is a single target 100% combo chance projectile, but this one is heat-seeking and sets people on fire.
• Skill 4, like ours is a defensive skill for interrupting or getting away from an attacker, but it is an aoe knockdown with a backwards leap finisher.
• Skill 5, like ours is a ground targeted channeled barrage, but you can move during this rocket barrage, it fires projectiles, and they set people on fire. (and it is on a 15s cooldown)

If our arrows could arc like the charzooka, it would be really nice for WvW… and in GW1 different kinds of bows fired projectiles in slightly different ways. For piercing arrows you obviously want straight lines but there are times when an arc would be pretty nice to have as an option…

Or the immobilize on entangle could work more reliably on pesky humans.

Thighum.7295:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

I think the shortbow needs the most help damagewise, the AA damage is painfully low.
I can hit for barely 2k while a thief can hit constant for over 4k.
Some reasons why this is stupid:
1. We’re supposed to be the archer class, the thief isn’t. So in my opinion, we should deal more damage with the AA than the thief is doing.
2. The main damagesource of the ranger shortbow is the AA, while the thief shortbow is meant to hit harder with his skills other than his AA.

Lets stop with the exaggeration here. It isn’t like thieves have an amazing ranged options. They only have 900 ranged options.

As for the thief shortbow, with an almost full ascended zerker build, its auto attack hits for 1.5-1.9k when it crits. Sure cluster bomb may hit for 4k, but it is extremely slow, and unlikely to hit mobile opponents who are awake unless used as point blank range, at which a sword or a dagger is much more efficient.

This feeling that shortbow thieves have a better ranged option than rangers seems random, especially since rangers have a 1500 range option, 600 more range than a thief can attack from.

If you have to complain/compare about another ranged weapon on a different class, at least point at warriors with their longbows and rifles. Both are more useful in a fight than a thief’s shortbow.

Who would win? Thief shortbow or ranger shortbow? I bet the thief.

Chrispy.5641:

Linnael.1069:

Chrispy.5641:

You’re still talking numbers on a discussion that should be all about mechanics.

In regards to the killshot warrior example, there’s a reason its not dominating the roam scene. Because it sucks kitten . Why don’t people just get two warriors and a thief together and go around selecting targets to die? Because obviously, according to yourself, this type of thing is “easy to avoid”

In regards to the other examples, well, you haven’t responded to them.

All you’re saying is that if you stack up every possible advantage, then in select cases, after you’ve grinded out bonus stats and people have ignored the options to deny your damage you can do alot of damage. Breaking news this is not.

You think you’re going to be “abusing this” somehow? People like me are going to be abusing you up and down the map as you try to rig up your 40k shot.

Oh look, I can make groundless statements about personal skill too.

What I find more concerning is your supposition that somehow the mechanics of this change are worse than current. You honestly think the loss of the fire rate is a significant loss compared to the stealth play, risk/gain considerations, and counterplay? Crit proc sigils are basically going off on-cooldown anyways, and besides thats not even a gameplay consideration. When do you ever not want your on crit sigils activating? When have you ever said “I wonder if I should rapid fire right now” because you were considering your proc rate? A good 90% of the offensive gameplay on the longbow right now is just auto attack or shoot faster for a little bit. I dunno if you consider the pew-pew faster for a while a deep and engaging gameplay option, but it could definitely be more.

Okay, lets talk mechanics. You didn’t specify whether or not we could move when using this attack, or if we had to stand still. I’m going to assume we can move, since you specifically said this attack would make us more useful against moving targets, which, doesn’t really work well when you are standing still (if we stand still, what’s the point. I already pointed out how stupid it would be to have 2 stationary skills on one weapon). So…..say I’m up on a wall in WvW, and people are attacking. Well, if I can move, I’m not just going to stand there!

I am first going to target someone attacking the gate/wall. Then I am going to stand back and use all my damage increasing signets before charging the skill, while someone is targeted. Then, when its almost done, I will run up to the edge of the wall, and time my jump just before the skill goes off so the enemy is in my line of sight. Then…. BAM!!!, massive damage spike on someone, who literally didn’t see it coming. Oh look! You never even had the chance to “abuse” me while I still abused the skill to its maximum effect!

The Mechanics of the skill suck, no matter how you put it. Change the idea already!

That’s why you drop barrage in favor of it. Barrage is already a terrible skill due to all the negatives and no real reward. But on top of that, it’s counter intuitive to the weapon it’s attached to because it removes you ability to use another weapon skill.

I like the discussion that’s happened around preserving the nature theme in whatever changes come to ranger spirit skills (Orpheal, Phenaphone, a few others). And for most posts I’ve seen in this thread regarding spirits, a recurring theme is that spirit skills aren’t fun to use because they’re so passive. However, I don’t see people complaining about signets, which are perhaps even more passive than spirits. If spirits didn’t die so easily, and provided buffs people found more useful, I kind of doubt people would care as much about spirits effects being passive. As for the usefulness of the mostly defensive buffs spirits provide, defensive skills not being useful in PvE isn’t a problem with the spirits; it’s a problem with PvE combat system design. Giving spirits more offensive buffs can alleviate the symptoms, though.

Making pets the epicenter of spirit buffs is still the most promising solution I’ve heard for addressing issues with spirits. With imaginative reworking of the skill animations, I think it’s entirely possible to preserve the feeling that rangers are summoning the same spirits of nature, while mechanistically behaving according to Allie’s proposed skill change. Along those lines, another idea I had is to make it so that, during the 1.5 second casting time for spirit skills, the spirit model actually appears (but isn’t targetable), runs to the ranger’s pet, and appears to imbue it with the respective aura. And when the skill expires, or the pet dies or is switched out, the spirit will appear to leave the pet and vanish into leaves, like the sylvari fern hound elite summonable. The skill mechanic could say “Imbue your pet with a <element> spirit that grants nearby allies a chance to gain <effect> when attacking,” perhaps. It’s a fine line, but it’s important to preserve the roleplaying affordances and nature-themed aesthetics of the ranger profession.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Who would win? Thief shortbow or ranger shortbow? I bet the thief.

Depends on the skill of the players, and some other variables which can’t quite be nailed down so easily.

Assuming similar skill levels. If there was a thief who solely used shortbow and no other skills, and a ranger who used only his shortbow? I’d almost put money on a skilled ranger. Why?

More likely to be able to outlast the thief.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Who would win? Thief shortbow or ranger shortbow? I bet the thief.

Depends on the skill of the players, and some other variables which can’t quite be nailed down so easily.

Assuming similar skill levels. If there was a thief who solely used shortbow and no other skills, and a ranger who used only his shortbow? I’d almost put money on a skilled ranger. Why?

More likely to be able to outlast the thief.

Yeah ok, the ranger could outlast the thief but the damage-comparison would probably win the thief.

ranger PVE and sPVP is not in problem guys…
sure, in sPVP ranger dont have many viable build. and that is the problem. but ranger are not underpowered in sPVP

but… in WvW, they do not contribute much to the zerg. i mean, they dont do any real damage even if you are a zerker build. because you will die fast. if you use more versatile build. you don’t contribute to the zerg like any other class.
sure they can roam. but thief can roam better.

Nektera.9425:

ranger PVE and sPVP is not in problem guys…
sure, in sPVP ranger dont have many viable build. and that is the problem. but ranger are not underpowered in sPVP

but… in WvW, they do not contribute much to the zerg. i mean, they dont do any real damage even if you are a zerker build. because you will die fast. if you use more versatile build. you don’t contribute to the zerg like any other class.
sure they can roam. but thief can roam better.

Ranger PvE is indeed a problem. Just try to get into a “zerker only” group.

Chrispy.5641:

Okay, lets talk mechanics. You didn’t specify whether or not we could move when using this attack, or if we had to stand still. I’m going to assume we can move, since you specifically said this attack would make us more useful against moving targets, which, doesn’t really work well when you are standing still (if we stand still, what’s the point. I already pointed out how stupid it would be to have 2 stationary skills on one weapon). So…..say I’m up on a wall in WvW, and people are attacking. Well, if I can move, I’m not just going to stand there!

I am first going to target someone attacking the gate/wall. Then I am going to stand back and use all my damage increasing signets before charging the skill, while someone is targeted. Then, when its almost done, I will run up to the edge of the wall, and time my jump just before the skill goes off so the enemy is in my line of sight. Then…. BAM!!!, massive damage spike on someone, who literally didn’t see it coming. Oh look! You never even had the chance to “abuse” me while I still abused the skill to its maximum effect!

The Mechanics of the skill suck, no matter how you put it. Change the idea already!

Linnael.1069:

I think there was a misunderstanding, and I may have forgotten it in my original post, but I’m operating under the assumption that this attack will lock player movement. The fact that it is hitscan will mitigate the loss of effectiveness at maximum range due to strafing, which is what i mean by “will help against moving targets.”

Then the Longbow will have 2 skills that locks the player movement, and people complain about Barrage locking you in place already. 1 Skill? Fine. but having 2 skills that lock you in place, in a game about position and movement is unacceptable.

Atherakhia.4086:

That’s why you drop barrage in favor of it. Barrage is already a terrible skill due to all the negatives and no real reward. But on top of that, it’s counter intuitive to the weapon it’s attached to because it removes you ability to use another weapon skill.

So, since people complain about Barrage locking you in place already (I’m assuming that’s one of the things you mean by negatives), why Add or replace skills with one that does it anyways?

And Barrage isn’t counter intuitive to the weapon its attached to. the change made to Hunter’s Shot is, and is counter intuitive to how the entire profession plays, since it was changed after the fact to give stealth, with zero thought put out there for how that would affect skills already in progress like Barrage, or Traps, or maybe you had Bonfire down somewhere or used Hunter’s call before switching weapons, etc.

Stealth in general doesn’t work on Ranger because of skills like those. the usefulness of Barrage has nothing to do with that. If, skills that were used before you stealthed, didn’t break stealth, and only the skills used after you stealthed broke stealth, I think it would be a good change, that way, no effects are wasted (the stealth or sustain the ranger lays down before going into stealth)

So why can’t the devs just buff the damage of all weapons the ranger has?
The reason is, that the ranger would still be able to be sustained because he has all the sustainability options he can choose from for his utility skills. The ranger has minor offensive utilities compared to the defensive utilities. So in my mind, it would be good to give the ranger potent offensive skills, so he can reach a competitve damagelevel while losing survivability.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Nektera.9425:

ranger PVE and sPVP is not in problem guys…
sure, in sPVP ranger dont have many viable build. and that is the problem. but ranger are not underpowered in sPVP

but… in WvW, they do not contribute much to the zerg. i mean, they dont do any real damage even if you are a zerker build. because you will die fast. if you use more versatile build. you don’t contribute to the zerg like any other class.
sure they can roam. but thief can roam better.

Ranger PvE is indeed a problem. Just try to get into a “zerker only” group.

Actually rangers are not bad at all in dungeons, they provide perma fury, frost spirit and very good dps (if the pet stay alive). Most people don’t take rangers because the class (because of the pet dying too much) has been alienated since day 1 and the bearbow stereotype is what you find pretty often. Many people probably play ranger because it’s a completely laid back class for general PvE, you let the pet tank and just use auto-attack, it’s the only class that allow you to play half-afk (or even completely AFK). Good rangers are pretty rare, probably because they run dungeons with their guild or they already rerolled to another class because ranger is also uterly boring in dungeons (mostly auto-attack…). We had 3 rangers in our guild, they play something else now.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Who would win? Thief shortbow or ranger shortbow? I bet the thief.

Depends on the skill of the players, and some other variables which can’t quite be nailed down so easily.

Assuming similar skill levels. If there was a thief who solely used shortbow and no other skills, and a ranger who used only his shortbow? I’d almost put money on a skilled ranger. Why?

More likely to be able to outlast the thief.

Yeah ok, the ranger could outlast the thief but the damage-comparison would probably win the thief.

That’s not winning if they die before you do, my friend. That’s called “losing”. Running away to live is also losing to the ranger.

@afoot

You know what I’d kind of like to see?

The activation animation causes the Spirit to appear and dissapear over the pet in much the same way a bear does as we Maul. The upper half is clearly visible, but the lower half fades out. They’d be about twice point five times the size they are now, ‘looming’ over the pet protectively and imparting their effect using a quick version of the shake animation the Nightmare Tree uses.

Each would retain their coloring scheme but additionally differentiated themselves by being a different sub-species of the Treant family. Earth Spirit’s a Mossheart, Water Spirit’s a Willowheart, Frost Spirit’s a Pinesoul, Sun Spirit’s an Oakheart, and Nature Spirit is a Rotting Ancient Oakheart.

That last one sounds a bit kooky, but bear with me a second. Applying the shader Spirits use on the Ancient Rotting model would cancel out much of the existing ominous color scheme (red leaves, ghostly pale bark, oil-like specular), and adding in that nice Emissive map Rotting has could possibly come off more ‘spiritual’ than ‘radioactive’ in a lighter context hopefully leaving the impression of a Non-Rotting Ancient Treant.

Mostly, I think moving it from a persistent object to a temporary effect would be a good opportunity to further distinguish spirits from a flavor perspective and telegraph their differences to an opponent observer, without having to worry about the optimization concerns of a persistent pet.

arkealia.2713:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Nektera.9425:

ranger PVE and sPVP is not in problem guys…
sure, in sPVP ranger dont have many viable build. and that is the problem. but ranger are not underpowered in sPVP

but… in WvW, they do not contribute much to the zerg. i mean, they dont do any real damage even if you are a zerker build. because you will die fast. if you use more versatile build. you don’t contribute to the zerg like any other class.
sure they can roam. but thief can roam better.

Ranger PvE is indeed a problem. Just try to get into a “zerker only” group.

Actually rangers are not bad at all in dungeons, they provide perma fury, frost spirit and very good dps (if the pet stay alive). Most people don’t take rangers because the class (because of the pet dying too much) has been alienated since day 1 and the bearbow stereotype is what you find pretty often. Many people probably play ranger because it’s a completely laid back class for general PvE, you let the pet tank and just use auto-attack, it’s the only class that allow you to play half-afk (or even completely AFK). Good rangers are pretty rare, probably because they run dungeons with their guild or they already rerolled to another class because ranger is also uterly boring in dungeons (mostly auto-attack…). We had 3 rangers in our guild, they play something else now.

If I’m running with my warrior, I can provide perma fury, 20 stacks of might and have the strongest heal ingame, combined with banners and a heavy armor.
I can’t see any point to chose a ranger over a warrior. Sure, 1 ranger will be better than the 3rd warrior but still, warriors can provide so much more with very little investment. The only thing the ranger can do better in my mind is using bears to either tank bosses (which is limited) or using them to revive downed allies.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Who would win? Thief shortbow or ranger shortbow? I bet the thief.

Depends on the skill of the players, and some other variables which can’t quite be nailed down so easily.

Assuming similar skill levels. If there was a thief who solely used shortbow and no other skills, and a ranger who used only his shortbow? I’d almost put money on a skilled ranger. Why?

More likely to be able to outlast the thief.

Yeah ok, the ranger could outlast the thief but the damage-comparison would probably win the thief.

That’s not winning if they die before you do, my friend. That’s called “losing”. Running away to live is also losing to the ranger.

But we’re talking about PvE, ok? You get kitten with yor suvivability in dungeons. The only thing that matters is damage. And the ranger lacks of competitive damage.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

But we’re talking about PvE, ok? You get kitten with yor suvivability in dungeons. The only thing that matters is damage. And the ranger lacks of competitive damage.

There’s more to PvE than dungeons. Strange, I know. I have pretty decent survivability in most places. Even Grenth, by not facetanking the Priest with everyone else. Champion Spiders hurt though. But what was the concern? Oh right, damage.

Yeah, I still get loot off things in dungeons. Even with “crap damage”, which is really strange also.

PvE doesn’t have as much issues with Rangers and how they perform as much as they do when dealing with WvW or large-scale boss fights where one blow can put the pet to sleep. Not saying there can’t be improvement but I’m not exactly sure they’re total crap.

It’s a valid point to bring a warrior instead of a ranger in some situations (such as not having a warrior yet).

But the overall DPS is improved by bringing a Ranger instead of a 2nd warrior. The Ranger doesn’t lack competitive damage when they carry a sword/horn.

If the Ranger is on FGS, the Ranger also doesn’t even have to worry about his sword auto-attack being rooted.

The max possible DPS for initial burst is a team consisting of 3 Eles, 1 Ranger and 1 Warrior. The DPS isn’t better if it had been 3 Eles and 2 Warriors.

the whole thing about pets getting the spirit effect though is how would this function once multiple spirit like skills are used and how will the actives work? will the pet need to sit still for the actives to fire off?

I have an exotic shortbow (critter), and it kills bit pve1v1 faster than my ascended longbow (critter), due to slow ROF of LB. So far the best which would work well;
LB AA 1500 range, the closer your target is, the faster you cast. + overall faster projectiles, they’re veeeery slow, and 1200 range is just… not mutch.
But a gardener hoe does more dmg than my GS even

Nektera.9425:

ranger PVE and sPVP is not in problem guys…
sure, in sPVP ranger dont have many viable build. and that is the problem. but ranger are not underpowered in sPVP

but… in WvW, they do not contribute much to the zerg. i mean, they dont do any real damage even if you are a zerker build. because you will die fast. if you use more versatile build. you don’t contribute to the zerg like any other class.
sure they can roam. but thief can roam better.

ranger pvp is a problem, we have a very gimiky build that is our only build that is viable… that is a problem, it would be the same if necros only had the MM build viable in pvp. we are pidgin holed into taking very finite things and not having any room for diversity, inspiration, or something more entertaining than throwing out spirits and spamming weapon skills. if you go to the pvp thread look at how much hate the other classes have for our one viable build, if we do not get another we might well be facing having no viable build if it gets nerfed from all of the other classes Q.Q over it leaving us with little to nothing to pvp with.

RoyalPredator.9163:

I have an exotic shortbow (critter), and it kills bit pve1v1 faster than my ascended longbow (critter), due to slow ROF of LB. So far the best which would work well;
LB AA 1500 range, the closer your target is, the faster you cast. + overall faster projectiles, they’re veeeery slow, and 1200 range is just… not mutch.
But a gardener hoe does more dmg than my GS even

you forgot warrior banners do more dmg than our GS

Yes, that too. They have 2-3k stabs, roughly ~1k more dmg at even higher ROF.
Design flaw? They are. All pickup weapons should offer special things, and a solid damage in case of need. Including Ice Bow that’s barrage deals twice the damage.
These all should be combo-field makers.

Y’know… I’m used to kill chickens with cow pies, duel bears with driftwood and hunt skritts with gardener hoe.

While we’re here, let’s not forget to swap the background arts for the Wilderness Survival and Beastmastery trait lines, please…

They’ve been backwards forever.

Razor.9872:

They’ve been backwards forever.

Another minor backwardsness: Malicious Training should be called Expertise Training and Expertise Training should be called Malicious Training.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

But we’re talking about PvE, ok? You get kitten with yor suvivability in dungeons. The only thing that matters is damage. And the ranger lacks of competitive damage.

There’s more to PvE than dungeons. Strange, I know. I have pretty decent survivability in most places. Even Grenth, by not facetanking the Priest with everyone else. Champion Spiders hurt though. But what was the concern? Oh right, damage.

Yeah, I still get loot off things in dungeons. Even with “crap damage”, which is really strange also.

PvE doesn’t have as much issues with Rangers and how they perform as much as they do when dealing with WvW or large-scale boss fights where one blow can put the pet to sleep. Not saying there can’t be improvement but I’m not exactly sure they’re total crap.

The ranger isn’t crap. If he would be crap he wouldn’t be played.
But not crap =/= good. In open PvE you can run with everything you want and it “works”. You can run cleric guard with stuff and you will not die and you will get loot. Still it deals crappy damage. Dungeons are the only way to compare things in PvE. Damage is the only maxim that matters.

Part of the problem is that Rangers are in a good place in PvP in my opinion and in WvW and PvE they are bottom tier. Skill splits for formats should at the very least be discussed. How do you fix them in WvW and not make them OP in PvP?

The other option is to make certain weapon sets attractive in one format and not the other, but that leads to a total lack of build diversity which I think is sloppy and lazy. I want variety in my play. It’s what keeps me coming back. I could segue that into an argument for more skill updates to mix up the meta to keep people interested in playing the game long term but this isn’t the place for it. Variety is the spice of life though.

xallever.1874:

But the overall DPS is improved by bringing a Ranger instead of a 2nd warrior. The Ranger doesn’t lack competitive damage when they carry a sword/horn.

Well the warrior will deal more damage than the ranger simply because the warrior can rotate between axe/mace and gs while the ranger has to sit on sword AA. The reason why a ranger is still better is because the 2 warriors would reach the might and vulnerability cap. The ranger offers a unique buff and spotter. This however oughtn’t hide the fact that the ranger has just one weapon with competitve damage which gets hindered by a clunky playstyle.

Iason Evan.3806:

Part of the problem is that Rangers are in a good place in PvP in my opinion and in WvW and PvE they are bottom tier. Skill splits for formats should at the very least be discussed. How do you fix them in WvW and not make them OP in PvP?

If you look at the current metabuilds, you will just find sustained ones. The ranger is good in outlasting his enemy because he has a pet and spirits who still deal a moderate amount of damage. That’s the reason why he is good in PvP. However you can’t translate that to PvE because there is no enemy who has to be outlasted.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

xallever.1874:

But the overall DPS is improved by bringing a Ranger instead of a 2nd warrior. The Ranger doesn’t lack competitive damage when they carry a sword/horn.

Well the warrior will deal more damage than the ranger simply because the warrior can rotate between axe/mace and gs while the ranger has to sit on sword AA. The reason why a ranger is still better is because the 2 warriors would reach the might and vulnerability cap. The ranger offers a unique buff and spotter. This however oughtn’t hide the fact that the ranger has just one weapon with competitve damage which gets hindered by a clunky playstyle.

Because of Eles, a team of 3 Eles has no further use of anyone contributing to more might, fury and vuln (not even the warrior). Therefore the Warrior is there not so much for his raw DPS since he’ll be outshined by another Ele or a Thief, but for his unique banner buffs, just like the Ranger’s unique buffs.

The sword auto-attack is clunky, I agree, as many have pointed out in many pages ago and has been included in the summary by Allie (although there’s no word on what’ll happen since this isn’t a new issue that’s been brought up).

But I don’t think profession balance means that every profession must have the same DPS output. Guardian isn’t chosen because of that (their sword+focus is also mostly reliant on auto-attack). At least currently Rangers have a justifiable role for their spot in a dungeon run (anyone besides Ele = lower DPS = chosen for utility).

Note: I’m not saying that there isn’t any room for improvement. There certainly is, but perhaps some of the things that need to be improved elude us, as some of the things that don’t.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Well the warrior will deal more damage than the ranger simply because the warrior can rotate between axe/mace and gs while the ranger has to sit on sword AA. The reason why a ranger is still better is because the 2 warriors would reach the might and vulnerability cap. The ranger offers a unique buff and spotter. This however oughtn’t hide the fact that the ranger has just one weapon with competitve damage which gets hindered by a clunky playstyle.

Maybe you could take your discussion to a more appropriate forum. This is for suggestions and discussion on how to improve the Ranger.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Dungeons are the only way to compare things in PvE. Damage is the only maxim that matters.

Yeah, we’re not going anywhere with this. You’ve bounced between “thief shortbow vs ranger shortbow” to “dungeons are what matter”/“damage over all” and it still doesn’t address the problems I’ve seen/experienced with the class.

(Cliff’s Notes: Pets aren’t as useful as they could be, longbow needs some tweaks, traits might need some adjusting to make more builds viable.)

Dungeons might be what you want to use as a yardstick, but no two dungeons are created equal. Heck, no two dungeon paths are created equal – that’s why CoF1 is/was such a popular quick grab for gold/loot. Some rooms are handled better by some classes, and rangers do have moments where they are rather useful. Particularly in conjunction with melee classes like warriors.

But I’ve also not really suffered “not enough damage” to finish something in a dungeon.