Guild Wars 2

Something like GW1 GvG, a Guild Lord to kill for win, with a flag stand or some other kind of 2nd objective (5vs5 it’s the way), and a Guild Ladder and Tournament Season.

JonathanSharp.7094:

So a few things on CTF:

We found that CTF works best as a “push” the flag, not “cap it by bringing it back to my base”. This means you have to push through the enemy team, and since you need to push it into their spawn, it means they can more easily defend a cap.

If it’s “cap” it by bringing it back to your base, there are often cases where the capturing team gets a flag past a certain point on the field, and no one on the defending team can catch up with them in order to prevent the cap.

We tried various mechanics, like making it so that the flag carrier couldn’t use skills, or they had to use “flag” skills, or they were just slowed down greatly, but in most of those instances, players didn’t have as much fun when carrying a flag. You can see some of this carried over to Spirit Watch and some of the issues it has.

Just some things to think about.

Love your thoughts on this. The reason why push seems more fun is because there is more counterplay from the team defending from a score. There are ~ three times the number of skills that knockback/launch an enemy vs those that pull an enemy.

What you are describing is similar to Huttball from SWTOR. Hope the map is something similarly inspired!

Also please consider the idea of being able to pass the orb. You can sort of do this in spirit watch by using a teleport or something to forcibly drop, but it is far from intuitive. To do this right you’d need to create a new ability for orb carriers that was “pass orb” that was ground targeted, maybe 600-900 range, and that you could keybind.

Rather than slowing or disabling skills while holding orb, could have debuff that gradually reduces endurance regeneration over time, giving incentive to pass the orb. i.e. every second you hold the orbyour endurence regen is reduced by 1-2%.

SuperHaze.4210:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Ohoni.6057:

@ Not having RPG elements in our game when compared to most MOBAS: Keep this in mind. It’s what gives the mobas their flow/pace. We need to build mechanics that change the pacing/feel of the map in a similar way, without hampering the fun players have. I think you get the same thing out of an RTS, but in a different way. Both sides start off with few resources and weak units. Over time they build up in both areas, and the middle/late game are very different than the early game.

I don’t play MOBAs, so maybe this makes no sense, but if the goal is to add character growth to the experience, would it be possible to add that using mostly existing mechanisms? What I’m thinking is, let players set up their builds, with whatever powers they want on 7, 8, 9, and 0. But then when they load into the map, lock all those abilities out, so they’re stuck with just weapons and heals. Then, when they do something to be rewarded, it unlocks the 7 ability, then the 8, then 9 and finally 0, putting them at full strength. It would certainly add an element of strategy planning out what order you want abilities to unlock in.

hmmm i dun like the idea of locking skills though.

a guild wars 2 MOBA does not have to behave like any other traditional MOBA. as in the skills unlock mechanics.

i think people just want the mechanics of fighting along friendly creeps, taking down towers etc.

as for “growing powerful” refer to my post above yours.
there could be generic abilities and profession specific abilities to feel stronger.

The reason I don’t play MOBA’s is for this reason. Everyone should have their abilities and there should be no skill/power progression. All advantages gained by a team should come from the environment, e.g. taking down walls and towers, reinforcing them through gaining resources on the map, or making your lord stronger by killing the opposing teams npcs. Gear/skill/level progression will just make a game obscenely long. If people wanted a direct port of Dota or LoL, they should just go play those games. Anet has a chance to evolve the game into something distinct with SOME similarities to other successful games, but it should NOT be a copycat aside from the standard pvp game modes like CTF and TDM. I don’t play MOBA’s because I can’t stand all the mouse clicking, but I want to see a MOBA style map minus the leveling/gear progression. Anet needs to stand by their philosophy of a level playing field for all players.

Came pretty much to quote this. We already have builds and RPG mechanics and sPvP is founded on zero stat progression. Focus on the other part of MOBAs: the culmination of an epic finish. Use NPCs and map objectives to achieve this. Keep things fast paced by aiming for a 15 minute game time rather than the 30+ of DotA-likes.

Proven.2854:

Came pretty much to quote this. We already have builds and RPG mechanics and sPvP is founded on zero stat progression. Focus on the other part of MOBAs: the culmination of an epic finish. Use NPCs and map objectives to achieve this. Keep things fast paced by aiming for a 15 minute game time rather than the 30+ of DotA-likes.

instead of locking down the existing traits, abilities, could have additional “guild wars 2 MOBA abilities” to speed things up.
doable in the 15 minutes game time, with some sense of progression.

no item store though.
just some “progression” to speed things up.

meet the separate special MOBA leveling system just for guild wars 2 MOBA mode.

for example,
- personal character level is still level 80. with 70 trait points and all etc.
- everyone starts off with “GW2 MOBA level” one (1)
- kill NPCs, creeps, players to “earn exp” to level up “GW2 MOBA level”
- total 10 or 25 “GW2 MOBA levels”
- choose general or profession specific abilities upon “GW2 MOBA level” up
- 3 lanes
- 15 minutes time limit
- 3 melee team creeps, 1 ranged team creep, spawn every minute
- 1 siege team creep, spawn every 2 minutes
- 5 vs 5 arena games. no join in half way.
- 8 vs 8 or 10 vs 10 for public hotjoin games. new players who join in half way gets leveled up to the average level.
- towers at each lanes choke points

all abilities have multiple tiers to level up.
5 levels max per ability. i.e. can take “more health” 5 times.
total level is 25, then only 5 abilities can be maxed.
so many choices etc.

general abilities:
- more health (+ 10% per level)
- more armor (+ 200 toughness per level)
- more damage against creeps only (+ 30% per level)
- more damage against players only (+ 10% per level)
- more damage against towers only (+ 20% per level)
- more damage against all creeps and players and towers (+ 5% per level)
- more default movement speed (+ 5% per level) stack with existing speed buffs
- faster skill and actions (+ 10% per level)
- etc

warrior abilities:
- shouts recharge time decrease (- 10% per level)
- even more health (+ 10% per level)
- take less damage (- 5% damage received per level)
- physical skills recharge time decrease (- 10% per level)
- physical skills extra damage (+ 20% per level)
- nearby up to 5 friendly creeps do more damage (+ 20% per level)
- rampage elite skill recharge time decrease (- 10% per level)
- rampage elite skill duration increase (+ 20% per level)
- rampage elite skill damage increase (+ 20% per level)
- etc

ranger abilities:
- more pet health (+ 20% per level)
- pet does more damage (+ 10% per level)
- long bow range increase (+ 200 range per level)
- short bow range increase (+ 100 range per level)
- nearby up to 5 friendly range / siege creeps have increased range (+ 50 per level)
- etc

mesmer abilities:
- shatter skills recharge time decrease (- 10% per level)
- illusions (clones & phantasm) health increase (+ 20% per level)
- illusions damage increase (+ 20% per level)
- nearby up to 5 friendly creeps have chance to spawn illusions
- time warp duration increase (+ 20% per level)
- time warp recharge time decrease (- 10% per level)
- etc

necro abilities:
- condition damage increase (+ 20% per level)
- condition duration increase (+ 20% per level)
- minions health increase (+ 20% per level)
- minions damage increase (+ 20% per level)
- nearby up to 5 friendly creeps do extra condition damage
- etc

thief abilities:
- critical chance increase (+ 10% per level)
- critical damage increase (+ 20% per level)
- stealth duration increase (+ 1s per level)
- revealed duration decrease (-0.5s, -1s, -1.5s, -2s, -2.5s i.e. 1.5 second revealed duration at level 5)
- initiative gain increase (+ 1 initiative per 10s per level)
- nearby up to 5 friendly creeps has increased critical chance and damage
- etc

engineer abilities:
- turret health increase (+ 20% per level)
- turret damage increase (+ 10% per level)
- throw additional grenades (+ 1 grenade per level)
- etc

elementalist abilities:
- various recharge time decrease
- etc

guardian abilities:
- boon duration increase
- various recharge time decrease
- nearby up to 5 friendly creeps gets increased health regeneration
- etc

well, everyone get more abilities to choose from.
i.e. within 15 minutes, everyone gets more powerful in their own chosen ways.

Definetly good changes! But i believe the MUST game mode have to be what the game itself said.. GUILD WARS! For god shake , we play a game and his title has no even a relevant with actual game style. I thing it too “silly”!
But as i read we are in the right path..!

SuperHaze.4210:

The reason I don’t play MOBA’s is for this reason. Everyone should have their abilities and there should be no skill/power progression. All advantages gained by a team should come from the environment, e.g. taking down walls and towers, reinforcing them through gaining resources on the map, or making your lord stronger by killing the opposing teams npcs. Gear/skill/level progression will just make a game obscenely long. If people wanted a direct port of Dota or LoL, they should just go play those games. Anet has a chance to evolve the game into something distinct with SOME similarities to other successful games, but it should NOT be a copycat aside from the standard pvp game modes like CTF and TDM. I don’t play MOBA’s because I can’t stand all the mouse clicking, but I want to see a MOBA style map minus the leveling/gear progression. Anet needs to stand by their philosophy of a level playing field for all players.

Mobas do have a level playfield, that’s one of the main reasons why they are popular as an esport.

However, I don’t disagree with you view on just taking elements of mobas either. The rpg/progression side could be done more subtly by just unlocking weapon skills as the game progresses, possibly also with npc or other buffs (as we already have in spvp).

Improving the power of npcs over time through upgrades and such also sounds a good idea.

The rpg or power progression through a moba is what enables it to have start/ mid/end game plays and adds a layer of strategy.

As to length, it would have to go for 30-45 mins on average- but there are other shorter game modes already. So as long as you have the choice of which mode you want to play that sounds fine to me. Certainly the length of moba games doesn’t seem to have stopped them from being incredibly popular and highly competitive.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Some kind of a 5-objective relic assembly with persistent pieces could make for interesting dynamics if done correctly. The strategic choices of carrying vs. stashing the relics and how to split to get as many as you need would bring interesting choices to a team. Then you get the mental game of hide & seek between opponents or attack/defend or bait & ambush depending on a team’s strategy. For a secondary mechanic a Kill Race (first team to 15 kills wins) or some way to terminate respawns (and therefore win by killing all opponents) would be great flavor. Mobility would be extremely valuable in a mode like this, so you’d have to find some way to equalize it and give less mobile comps a chance.

I like this idea alot. Maybe make it a build the golem the fastest race. The different pieces will show up on the map.. so you know which part to go for … and have something show up on the UI so you know what your are missing and what the enemy is missing.. So you know what to persistently defend etc.

Maybe 6 parts to win … 2 spawn randomly every so often… have some ability to steal parts maybe?

Returning.8125:

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Some kind of a 5-objective relic assembly with persistent pieces could make for interesting dynamics if done correctly. The strategic choices of carrying vs. stashing the relics and how to split to get as many as you need would bring interesting choices to a team. Then you get the mental game of hide & seek between opponents or attack/defend or bait & ambush depending on a team’s strategy. For a secondary mechanic a Kill Race (first team to 15 kills wins) or some way to terminate respawns (and therefore win by killing all opponents) would be great flavor. Mobility would be extremely valuable in a mode like this, so you’d have to find some way to equalize it and give less mobile comps a chance.

I like this idea alot. Maybe make it a build the golem the fastest race. The different pieces will show up on the map.. so you know which part to go for … and have something show up on the UI so you know what your are missing and what the enemy is missing.. So you know what to persistently defend etc.

Maybe 6 parts to win … 2 spawn randomly every so often… have some ability to steal parts maybe?

There are a large number of variants on it that I think could be fun, so you could do multiple maps like this with different assembly affects or different secondary mechanics. That is why I like the idea so much.

The key to it is persistent pieces (they don’t disappear or respawn). I like having 4-5 pieces all on the map, because it introduces more split strategy than 3 point conquest allows for, and limits the possibility of matches ending too quickly without any combat. You could make it something like a 3s easily interruptible channel to pick them up and a drop on down mechanic (like the orb already has) as well as the ability to drop the piece on command.

Assembling all 5 pieces could vary in effect from map to map, or you could just make it an outright victory condition and play with the secondary objectives.

You could have a Kill race map where assembling the relic results in instant down for all 5 opponents. You would have to think really hard about when to complete the assembly in order to make sure you get the stomps and don’t get them rallied.

You could have a KotH Map where assembling all the pieces automatically flips the Hill to your team, thus solving the problem of KotH being too much of a cluster on the single point.

You could use this concept in a GvG scenario as a replacement for the Flag Stand/Morale Boost system, and make the relic open enemy gates (and then allow the pieces to respawn) or provide some other benefit that favors the assemblers.

You could make the assembled relic a spawn limiter. Make the assembled relic deactivate the opponent’s rez shrine on a kill race map. This would allow for a monster comeback if you can get one wipe on your opponents after deactivating their rez. Obviously a dead team that can’t respawn automatically loses.

You could make the relic a 1-shot AoE Death Ray (or perhaps the ammunition for said Death Ray) on any kind of map. Think like a 240-360 radius unblockable, undodgeable, one use, AoE instagib siege mechanic. This would necessitate even more strategic splitting (in order to avoid an instant team wipe).

The bottom line to the whole concept is that this combat system is much more enjoyable and balanced in smaller scale strategic combat than in any other scenarios, and creating modes that reward intelligent splitting into 2’s, 3’s and 1’s and crisp rotation of the small groups from location to location with only occasionally 4’s and 5’s is what will make new modes a success.

I think there is a tremendous amount of potential in this, but you have to be careful not to make it too complex with so many moving parts.

“@ 2on2/3on3: A lot of you guys really seem to like this idea. So do we. We’re looking at game types which encourage this style of play. Another thing we’re looking at it combining the size of fights with larger tactical/strategic implications, so that there is something fun going on the micro level (the actual fight) and the macro level (the map overall).”

No please just give us simple deathmatch q_q dont make it too complicated.

Just a death match mode is needed by players. But QUICK PLEASE !

I wanna play this new game mode before leaving for Everquest next or Wildstar. Ty

JonathanSharp.7094:

@ 2on2/3on3: A lot of you guys really seem to like this idea. So do we. We’re looking at game types which encourage this style of play. Another thing we’re looking at it combining the size of fights with larger tactical/strategic implications, so that there is something fun going on the micro level (the actual fight) and the macro level (the map overall).

The latter (macro level) is exactly what Conquest lacks. The game is incredibly fun at the micro level, but above 3v3 the fighting starts to become too fast-paced and chaotic to be really fun and comprehensible, not just for audiences but for players themselves. (And not just crap players like me, even people in the top-100 have admitted that in 4v4 fights there are just too many particle effects to see what’s going on, and that the damage is coming in so fast that you can’t react meaningfully to the fight.) I’m not saying you should build game modes that discourage fights over 2v2, I’m saying that you should make bigger fights better.

@ GvG/castle sieges: I think these can be combined in some pretty cool ways. You guys had some great points/ideas on these, so thanks for those.

I don’t think employing strong siege mechanics into a GVG-style format would be a good idea. We have WvW for that after all, and anything that slows down the pace of the game and turns it to player vs door should be avoided.

@ Lords and protecting them/not protecting them: Players seem to be pretty split down the middle on this one. Some players want the “play” of protecting their Lord and keeping it alive, while other want it to be more like a MOBA nexxus – something you can’t actively heal/protect. We’ll have to try that one both ways to see what has better play to it. I suspect it’s the former.

It worked well in GW1 because it opened up more tactical play: it allowed you to leave 1-2 team members behind to heal and protect the lord while the rest went for a desperate last-minute gank. If you made it MOBA-style then both teams would just build for maximum spike damage and go straight for each other’s lords.

JonathanSharp.7094:

@ 2on2/3on3: A lot of you guys really seem to like this idea. So do we. We’re looking at game types which encourage this style of play. Another thing we’re looking at it combining the size of fights with larger tactical/strategic implications, so that there is something fun going on the micro level (the actual fight) and the macro level (the map overall).

@ Moba: This plays into another idea you guys seem to be hitting on, which is a moba style game. We think the layout/flow of a moba style map could be really fun, especially when combined with something like killing enemy captains or guild lords. We’re also looking at testing something like that!

@ GvG/castle sieges: I think these can be combined in some pretty cool ways. You guys had some great points/ideas on these, so thanks for those.

@ Lords and protecting them/not protecting them: Players seem to be pretty split down the middle on this one. Some players want the “play” of protecting their Lord and keeping it alive, while other want it to be more like a MOBA nexxus – something you can’t actively heal/protect. We’ll have to try that one both ways to see what has better play to it. I suspect it’s the former.

@ Not having RPG elements in our game when compared to most MOBAS: Keep this in mind. It’s what gives the mobas their flow/pace. We need to build mechanics that change the pacing/feel of the map in a similar way, without hampering the fun players have. I think you get the same thing out of an RTS, but in a different way. Both sides start off with few resources and weak units. Over time they build up in both areas, and the middle/late game are very different than the early game.

I’ll keep looking for other things to respond to in this thread. Thanks for all the feedback/ideas guys.

Couple things here John:

For deathmatch: The only other mechanics should be anti-stealth and anti-stalemate (such as a damage modifier over time or items that reveall enemies, etc). Don’t add other large mechanics or objectives to the arena-style deathmatch mode please!

For MOBA: Very excited you guys are interested in actually undertaking this! I suppose you could build from your old MOBA-style mini-game map and really expand upon this idea.

Overall: Just keep in mind how other successful PvP games work (LoL, DOTA, SC2, SMITE, etc) and take advantage of their already proven ideas. These ideas include: robust queue systems, clear UI’s, loading/pre-match lobbies, engaging game modes, competitive ranking system and clear leaderboard metrics. You guys are going down the right path, give it all you got <3! I know I’ll certainly be supporting ArenaNet further w/ more $$ purchases if you deliver!

Monetize: Obviously you guys need to make money: MOBA’s do it almost entirely off skins/easy unlocks/etc. Do this! It seems simple, but it would absolutely sustain you all if you just pumped out awesome cosmetic after awesome cometic

Keep up the good work!

Yasha.5963:

Mobas do have a level playfield, that’s one of the main reasons why they are popular as an esport.

However, I don’t disagree with you view on just taking elements of mobas either. The rpg/progression side could be done more subtly by just unlocking weapon skills as the game progresses, possibly also with npc or other buffs (as we already have in spvp).

Improving the power of npcs over time through upgrades and such also sounds a good idea.

The rpg or power progression through a moba is what enables it to have start/ mid/end game plays and adds a layer of strategy.

As to length, it would have to go for 30-45 mins on average- but there are other shorter game modes already. So as long as you have the choice of which mode you want to play that sounds fine to me. Certainly the length of moba games doesn’t seem to have stopped them from being incredibly popular and highly competitive.

I don’t play DoTA or LoL so I have no idea what balance is like in those games. Thanks for enlightening me. The only thing I know about MOBAs is that there is a lot of mouse clicking involved lol and trying to get the last hit on a minion to get the gold.

My problem with the unlocking skills through game/level progression is that I don’t want to spam auto-attack until the game progresses where I can unlock my other skills. That adds to really long game times. I guess we’ll have to wait to see where Anet wants to go with this, but I’m sure they’re wanting to keep matches short enough where it doesn’t take 30+ minutes to play a match, especially when they’re trying to release other game modes like CTF or TDM. It seems (correct me if I’m wrong) even upcoming mmo’s like Wildstar and ESO etc., don’t have the same combat mechanics as GW2 so Anet has the ability to implement tons of different game modes that require active combat. I just hope they get these out before those other games get released so that we don’t lose anymore players.

I don’t like MOBAs nor do I wish to play them again. It is just something that does not sit well with me but I think that if the devs find ways to make it a Guild Wars 2 MOBA-style pvp mode, instead of a MOBA Guild Wars 2-style mode, I suppose it wouldn’t be too bad. Just be careful not to stray too much from what makes Guild Wars 2 what it is, which can really be said for any mode that is decided on really. I think the flow and intensity of the GW2 combat system is really what makes this game unique and I would hate to suddenly be thrust into a pvp mode where the combat suddenly becomes secondary to some overarching objective.

Either way I have confidence in the devs and I can’t wait for whatever it is you guys decide to release! Yay for pvp!

I don’t want character progression. I don’t want to unlock skills or be able to become absurdly strong relative to my opponents. There are ways to make the map progress over time without the progression having to come from the characters and their abilities. It may be a personal preference, but if it wasn’t I’d be playing one of those MOBA or Hero Brawlers instead.

Please just give us 2v2/3v3…people just want to fight. Why do you think hotjoin is the most popular pvp mode by far? Because people dont want to worry about objectives and just want to fight. this game NEEDS an arena mode…not a silly moba mode which will discourage actual combat and be very unpopular in this game.

JonathanSharp.7094:

@ multiple people who commented on progression, ala moba games: We agree. While I think that leveling up and acquiring items/skills/gold is core to moba games, I think we can do something different which fits an MMO. I think we can give you guys the cool aspects of an MMO + the some aspects of a moba which fit our game well.

Glad you guys feel that way. Like I’ve said in my previous post, map progression should be the primary way to achieve victory with maybe a small buff from killing certain npcs like on Forest where you get +50 to all stats for a few minutes.

Honestly, I think the best course of action as this is a Guild Wars game, is to build this game from the ground up. If your building a house you need to start with a foundation, if your growing a tree you need to start with the seeds.

Therefore, start with the basics that GW1 launched with. Random arenas, Competitive arenas, HoH, GvG – this offered a clear progression and variety for everyone.

Random arenas forced more “jack of all trades” style builds as you never knew what team members you were going to get, Competitive helped players learn to make specialized builds that rely on each other as team members more, and this allowed them to be prepared to move in to HoH/GvG.

Not only will this give options to every player, but all your true Guild Wars fans will be more than pleased, and finally feel like GW2 is what they were promised as being a GW game.

When it comes to progression, I think you guys had it great in the first GW game as well. You can get a core build quickly, but it takes time to eventually earn more “options”. You can combine this with the discussed Moba style progression (new char types, “classes”, specialization, etc), new gear/skins, etc.

But the important thing, relative to what we have now, is we need some type of progression OUTSIDE of looks. Looks are great, but there has to be other things too. And for looks it needs to be something dramatically cool or different, and a sign of accomplishment. The current ones are just,… a grind really.

Whatever mode you add to the game – please, make gameplay affecting environment. Lavapits, icestreams, geysers, fumaroles. And bigger maps

Some variation of TF2 King of the Hill or UT04 Double Domination could be nice!

How about a game mode where there are 2 teams of 5 people. Fights are just 1v1 and when one member of a team dies another instantly replaces him. Last team to have people alive wins. People should be able to spectate the fight until their turn comes but they should not be able to change skills/traits or weapons in order to counter the enemies build.

Soul.5947:

How about a game mode where there are 2 teams of 5 people. Fights are just 1v1 and when one member of a team dies another instantly replaces him. Last team to have people alive wins. People should be able to spectate the fight until their turn comes but they should not be able to change skills/traits or weapons in order to counter the enemies build.

I like the sound of this. Maybe this arena can be placed in the mists so that people can hang out and watch.

ZenoSpyridon.1396:

Random arenas forced more “jack of all trades” style builds as you never knew what team members you were going to get, Competitive helped players learn to make specialized builds that rely on each other as team members more, and this allowed them to be prepared to move in to HoH/GvG.

But the important thing, relative to what we have now, is we need some type of progression OUTSIDE of looks. Looks are great, but there has to be other things too. And for looks it needs to be something dramatically cool or different, and a sign of accomplishment. The current ones are just,… a grind really.

Totally agree with random arenas forcing players into different builds. Tired of seeing 5 zerker builds focus firing someone down in 2-3 seconds.

With rewards, there definitely needs to be skins available to those who have earned it instead of the farmers. If Anet chooses to, I wouldn’t mind spending real money to buy skins too, it’s just that the available skins in the gem store are mediocre at best.

JonathanSharp.7094:

@ 2on2/3on3: A lot of you guys really seem to like this idea. So do we. We’re looking at game types which encourage this style of play. Another thing we’re looking at it combining the size of fights with larger tactical/strategic implications, so that there is something fun going on the micro level (the actual fight) and the macro level (the map overall).

Awhile back I read a post about a guild that would organize tdm 3v3’s, but I was curious as to how long the average fight would last. A micro/macro to extend the duration of the fights could be best out of 3 or best out of 5. This itself doesn’t create any additional objectives and opens up a tournament mode where the winners move on to face other teams that have equally advanced while rewards are given to teams on placement.

JonathanSharp.7094:

Thedenofsin.7340:

Hi Jonathan,

I agree 100% regarding CTF. Push is far superior than pull. Rift had a CTF map and I had repeated to them that they needed to change the format from capture the flag to push the flag.

The analogy I used is this: how much fun would it be if, in football, the ball was snapped to the quarterback and he ran away from the line of scrimmage to score?

Hah! We use the same analogy internally….because in american football, you have to take the ball THROUGH the other team, you don’t run away from them.

The problem with “push” (PTF) vs “pull” (CTF) is that push is inevitably zergy, and no amount of secondary objective mechanics can change that.

Multiple, independent (or loosely-coupled) “flags” would work better in this game (IMHO). The best candidate here (again IMHO) are enhanced versions of regular player weapons, eg artefact weapons, that have to be brought to an objective in unison, eg: 4 artefact weapons spawned, 3 brought to inside scoring area to score.

With 8 players per side, 4/3 objectives gives 2-3 players per objective per side on average, a good number for GW2 IMO.

The main points here are:

• multiple push objectives
• using “enhanced” versions of regular weapons as the push objectives

1v1 Duels
2v2/3v3 Arenas

We need them.

I’m tired of asking for that, I show up here from time to time and ask for them.

Strike Force (JQ) has been running a 3v3 tournament on the central point of FoeFire.

10 minute match, only central point available, highest points at 10 minutes or 500 points win.

We are allowing caps, and that created a really interesting dynamic for teams to decide what to do if they lose someone. If you fall back and regroup, you risk losing the point. If you wait, you risk losing another player and getting into a 1 by 1 clear out.

I would love to have a capability to change a capture from points/sec to giving a set point count and putting it on a cooldown. That would force the 3v3 to occur in a set area and give an advantage to a team wipe, but also prevent a snowball.

Lumiere.4609:

Strike Force (JQ) has been running a 3v3 tournament on the central point of FoeFire.

10 minute match, only central point available, highest points at 10 minutes or 500 points win.

We are allowing caps, and that created a really interesting dynamic for teams to decide what to do if they lose someone. If you fall back and regroup, you risk losing the point. If you wait, you risk losing another player and getting into a 1 by 1 clear out.

I would love to have a capability to change a capture from points/sec to giving a set point count and putting it on a cooldown. That would force the 3v3 to occur in a set area and give an advantage to a team wipe, but also prevent a snowball.

Yes, more options on custom arenas would be a perfect way to cheaply get more game modes with less dev time! Back around the launch of customs there were a few threads with dozens of suggestions for options we wanted available in custom arenas. To date only a few of those are implemented. Please review

Make 3v3 deathmatch happen !

JonathanSharp.7094:

@ 2on2/3on3: A lot of you guys really seem to like this idea. So do we. We’re looking at game types which encourage this style of play. Another thing we’re looking at it combining the size of fights with larger tactical/strategic implications, so that there is something fun going on the micro level (the actual fight) and the macro level (the map overall).

Good to hear, this is the only thing that will get me interested again into gw2 pvp. But it sounds like you’re coming up with another objective type gamemode that encourages small team fights, that’s not what we want, it HAS to be 2v2/3v3 deathmatch.

And all this talk about MOBA gamemodes has me worried. I can see ALOT of time and effort spent into another fail gamemode. Deathmatch is simple, proven, and popular.

Deathmatch should be available in hotjoin.. But as the new game mode?

Srsly?

JonathanSharp.7094:

@ multiple people who commented on progression, ala moba games: We agree. While I think that leveling up and acquiring items/skills/gold is core to moba games, I think we can do something different which fits an MMO. I think we can give you guys the cool aspects of an MMO + the some aspects of a moba which fit our game well.

I dont think, that something different than leveling up and acquiring items is needed.
Some progression is needed and because it is the same way of progression for everyone, it is balanced. Maybe some builds are stronger in the early game and weaker in the lategame and the other way around.

I could imagine, every one starts with his weapon skill #1 and every other skill needs to be learned by killing enemies (like in PvE). And at specific levels, they get their utility skills and can choose them once and then they are fixed.

And please let us test those gamemodes too in early stages. Maybe introduce an asura, that invented an holo-deck and play on maps like “orange box” map in TF2, or css. The maps doesnt have to look amazing, but the gamemechanik should be tested by us as fast as possible. I dont want to see a 4month+ development, that isnt played because of some bad design decisions.
And some feedback questions like in the beta.

2v2 / 3v3 Arena mode.
- Arena Seasons
- Arena skins based on how well you did
- Arena finishers
- Arena Rank to achieve skins

dimyzuka.7051:

JonathanSharp.7094:

@ 2on2/3on3: A lot of you guys really seem to like this idea. So do we. We’re looking at game types which encourage this style of play. Another thing we’re looking at it combining the size of fights with larger tactical/strategic implications, so that there is something fun going on the micro level (the actual fight) and the macro level (the map overall).

Good to hear, this is the only thing that will get me interested again into gw2 pvp. But it sounds like you’re coming up with another objective type gamemode that encourages small team fights, that’s not what we want, it HAS to be 2v2/3v3 deathmatch.

And all this talk about MOBA gamemodes has me worried. I can see ALOT of time and effort spent into another fail gamemode. Deathmatch is simple, proven, and popular.

This is how i feel….2v2 tournaments have been increasingly popular as of lately. It is a simple mode and would be easy to implement…but for some reason jsharp loves mobas and dreams for gw2 to be like one. News flash…we play this game for the COMBAT AND FIGHTING. that is the fun part in this game…not objectives.

Put in keg brawl as a mode in custom arena, thanks in advance.

piffdaddy.8014:

This is how i feel….2v2 tournaments have been increasingly popular as of lately. It is a simple mode and would be easy to implement…but for some reason jsharp loves mobas and dreams for gw2 to be like one. News flash…we play this game for the COMBAT AND FIGHTING. that is the fun part in this game…not objectives.

Well, there were many posts asking for moba-type mechanics, so maybe it is a community-driven idea? News Flash-there is combat and fighting in moba.

I would expect a 2vs2/3vs3 etc deathmatch-type mode to be in a game like this as a matter of course, but its hardly inspiring or groundbreaking stuff.

Yasha.5963:

piffdaddy.8014:

This is how i feel….2v2 tournaments have been increasingly popular as of lately. It is a simple mode and would be easy to implement…but for some reason jsharp loves mobas and dreams for gw2 to be like one. News flash…we play this game for the COMBAT AND FIGHTING. that is the fun part in this game…not objectives.

Well, there were many posts asking for moba-type mechanics, so maybe it is a community-driven idea? News Flash-there is combat and fighting in moba.

I would expect a 2vs2/3vs3 etc deathmatch-type mode to be in a game like this as a matter of course, but its hardly inspiring or groundbreaking stuff.

I just feel like if people wanted a moba they would play LoL or dota 2…putting pve type objectives in a game where people want to fight (gw2) is not going to be popular in this game. They thought conquest was going to be their one way ticket to esports and were very wrong….I just don’t want them to make the same mistake with a new and possibly equally boring game mode.

What I’d like would be an arena which would have 2 parts… (you could be either a fighter or spectator)

-Part 1- I’d like to see a 1v1 arena. Fighters completely randomly matched. The match would be called off if one of the fighters made no moves (throwing the match) and the non-moving fighter would be kept out of the arena rotation for a certain period.

-Part 2- You could be in the crowd as a spectator watching the match and placing bets prior to the match as to who would win. The winning fighter would get a share of the gold and the winning spectators would get gold based on the bets (odds such as in a horse race). As a spectator you could also pay gold to activate or place traps in the arena. It would be good to also be able to cheer or boo during the match.

Devs.. What do ya think?

piffdaddy.8014:

Yasha.5963:

piffdaddy.8014:

This is how i feel….2v2 tournaments have been increasingly popular as of lately. It is a simple mode and would be easy to implement…but for some reason jsharp loves mobas and dreams for gw2 to be like one. News flash…we play this game for the COMBAT AND FIGHTING. that is the fun part in this game…not objectives.

Well, there were many posts asking for moba-type mechanics, so maybe it is a community-driven idea? News Flash-there is combat and fighting in moba.

I would expect a 2vs2/3vs3 etc deathmatch-type mode to be in a game like this as a matter of course, but its hardly inspiring or groundbreaking stuff.

I just feel like if people wanted a moba they would play LoL or dota 2…putting pve type objectives in a game where people want to fight (gw2) is not going to be popular in this game. They thought conquest was going to be their one way ticket to esports and were very wrong….I just don’t want them to make the same mistake with a new and possibly equally boring game mode.

Why? It worked in gw1.

Guild wars 2 was never created to be a MOBA game… I would be leaving the game at least, because I love the way pvp was designed at first, dynamic, that was what made me play GW2….

Hero system in LINEAGE 2 is the best pvp mode I have ever played….

It’s a series of 1 v 1 matches in a small arena called Coliseum, where anyone can go against anyone, it’s random… There is a monthly rank and in the end of the month, the #1 rank player of each class is elected Hero for the next month, he can wear a special skin armour and weapon…

All matches can be spectated

There is no draw match since after 15 minutes the one that inflicted more damage is the winner, so even if u make a “super unbeatable regeneration warrior or point holder that cleans all conditions” you will lose, so it’s better if u kill your opponent !!!

It’s a very nice, very simple and very addicting system and fun to watch since everybody wants to see who is the new “Hero” and best player of each class !

whyme.3281:

JonathanSharp.7094:

@ multiple people who commented on progression, ala moba games: We agree. While I think that leveling up and acquiring items/skills/gold is core to moba games, I think we can do something different which fits an MMO. I think we can give you guys the cool aspects of an MMO + the some aspects of a moba which fit our game well.

I dont think, that something different than leveling up and acquiring items is needed.
Some progression is needed and because it is the same way of progression for everyone, it is balanced. Maybe some builds are stronger in the early game and weaker in the lategame and the other way around.

I could imagine, every one starts with his weapon skill #1 and every other skill needs to be learned by killing enemies (like in PvE). And at specific levels, they get their utility skills and can choose them once and then they are fixed.

And please let us test those gamemodes too in early stages. Maybe introduce an asura, that invented an holo-deck and play on maps like “orange box” map in TF2, or css. The maps doesnt have to look amazing, but the gamemechanik should be tested by us as fast as possible. I dont want to see a 4month+ development, that isnt played because of some bad design decisions.
And some feedback questions like in the beta.

i kind of like the idea of a moba-inspired game mode, but i do absolutely hate the idea of a progression system as used in moba’s.
it just doesn’t feel like pvp anymore, in moba everything is about some pve content and lvl’ing up. so many matches i saw where people wouldn’t touch each other for minutes because of lvl’ing up. sooo boring – go to pve!

srsly i fear the fast paced game style gets lost in this moba world

kito.1827:

it just doesn’t feel like pvp anymore, in moba everything is about some pve content and lvl’ing up. so many matches i saw where people wouldn’t touch each other for minutes because of lvl’ing up. sooo boring – go to pve!

srsly i fear the fast paced game style gets lost in this moba world

Nah, if it was boring, mobas wouldn’t have such huge fanbase. One LoL stream gets more viewers than GW2 tpvp final at pax. Sad but true.

Katran.9186:

kito.1827:

it just doesn’t feel like pvp anymore, in moba everything is about some pve content and lvl’ing up. so many matches i saw where people wouldn’t touch each other for minutes because of lvl’ing up. sooo boring – go to pve!

srsly i fear the fast paced game style gets lost in this moba world

Nah, if it was boring, mobas wouldn’t have such huge fanbase. One LoL stream gets more viewers than GW2 tpvp final at pax. Sad but true.

ya, boring for me i must say.
tbh i dont care for viewership, but i do care for my game-fun

like i am listening to metal and want it to sound like techno…

Please, just remake Hall Of Heroes from Guild Wars 1
It should be easy to copy and remake the maps with this beautiful game graphic´s.
Carrying hero to the hall of heroes is just an epic thing to do, and also the end game chest reward could have a 0.00001% of giving a legendary

kito.1827:

Katran.9186:

kito.1827:

it just doesn’t feel like pvp anymore, in moba everything is about some pve content and lvl’ing up. so many matches i saw where people wouldn’t touch each other for minutes because of lvl’ing up. sooo boring – go to pve!

srsly i fear the fast paced game style gets lost in this moba world

Nah, if it was boring, mobas wouldn’t have such huge fanbase. One LoL stream gets more viewers than GW2 tpvp final at pax. Sad but true.

ya, boring for me i must say.

The problem is you need some kind of progression within a Moba. It should not be possible to kill the enemies Keep-Lord (or what ever the goal is) within the first seconds of the game. Then the whole mode would be a race, which team runs faster to the enemies base and that definitely is boring.
So at least there has to be a progression through the map. Every lane has only one attack-able “tower” the lord and the other “towers” are invulnerable until the previous “tower” falls, but i think that should be normal for any moba.
The next question is, should you be able to kill a “tower” as fast at the beginning of the game as in the end? I don’t think so. If it would be possible to destroy one “tower” while your opponent just got killed and is reviving, you probably will only need 3 kills per lane until you are at the lord.

I don’t think that a character progression would be that bad, because it would not effect only one player, every one would be as good or bad as the others at the beginning. Every one has the same chances to get this progression, there are probably some builds that are easier to play/harder to kill during this progression, but that problem is the same for sPvP. I think progression wouldn’t change the pace of the game, just an example every player deals only half the damage, while having half the defense. The fights would be as fast as before.
There is only the problem, that one lane gets stronger then the other (outlevel them), but i think this is the same for every 5v5, deathmatch etc. If one dies, the other team has an advantage, this could be a 4v5, points, time to capture something, … As long as this progression does not make one unbeatable because of one or two level difference, i think it would be fine.

I’ll throw my hat into the ring here.
This is the foundation of an idea, and still needs some fleshing out.
I’ve called it GRIDIRON.

Premise: Tic-Tac-Toe meets Capture Point meets Payload.

Layout: The map is divided into a series of adjacent segments. Each segment can be conquered by either team.
The objective: create a contiguous path from your base to your opponents’ base. Once a contiguous path is created, you must navigate a ‘super siege machine (SSM)’, like a Mega-Golem (legendary level), from your side to the opponents’ side. This siege is operated by 1 team member.
If the Super Siege gets to the other side, the game is over.

Gameplay:

Phase I
1) The map is divided into a series of adjacent segments, maybe like a tic-tac-toe square, but the middle is slightly pinched into 2 squares . A segment is owned by players of one team occupying the spot, much like it is currently with capture point.
a. A segment may be reclaimed by the opponent in the same manner it currently is in capture point.
2) If one team creates a contiguous path from their side to the opponent’s side, that path is ‘locked down’, and Phase 2 begins.
b. The ‘locked down’ path cannot be claimed by the opposing team unless they defeat the SSM.
a. The contiguous path may be straight, diagonal, or any combination (zig-zag, etc)

Phase II
1) If one team succeeds in constructing the path, a Super Siege Machine (SSM) is released. This SSM must be piloted by 1 team member along the locked down path to the other team’s side. If it reaches the other side, the team wins.
a. The SSM is Legendary and has a ginourmous Hit Point Pool (GHPP).
b. The SSM has a set of abilities of its own, but is somewhat limited.
c. The SSM has the unshakeable buff.
d. If the pilot leaves the SSM, the SSM will turn around and begin to head back to base.

2) The SSM can be destroyed by the opposing team. If this happens:
a. The ‘lock down’ path becomes neutral.
b. the pilot is killed
c. The entire advancing team within 2000 meters of the SSM are all sent back to their spawn.
d. You go back to Phase I.

3) If no team wins by the end of the match timer, a winner is determined based upon how many spaces are occupied at the end of the match.

Buffs/Debuffs:
Occupying various patterns on the map provides teams with benefits. Some ideas:
– Owning a 4 segment forming a square: spawns a guardian NPC for the team
– Owning a Tetris “Z” shaped segment: spawns a 1-use bundle that allows a player to put down a massive aoe-rejection field for 20 seconds
– Owning an all the segments along your base: creates a set mini auto-trebuchet that defends your home base

It’s a rough concept, but I think you get the idea. The gameplay can vary depending upon map design (tic-tac-toe, or a circle, or a “Family Feud X”, etc.), and what kind of buffs are put down, etc.

2v2 and 3v3 game mode ! Just it.

And please, QUICK !!

Yasha.5963:

I would expect a 2vs2/3vs3 etc deathmatch-type mode to be in a game like this as a matter of course, but its hardly inspiring or groundbreaking stuff.

A single objective based mode for this game without a traditional healer would be groundbreaking imo.