Guild Wars 2

Sykper.6583:

Ohoni.6057:

“so that players that like the idea of the existing raids, but do not like the challenge level”

If they like the idea of existing raids, they should not hate the challenge level. Your statement in of itself is a contradiction.

Maybe what they ment was the “idea” of it was the storyline and lore in it? But not doing the “Every attack is a one shot.” fight slog? (And yes I know not every attack is a one shot, but just being sarcastic.) Could be wrong though. Clarity on what they ment would be helpful. (Or just be descriptive the first time, but w/e its the internet -_-)

TDLR:

-new raid releases

-“oh look! another content for the elites, irrelevant for us the average Joe”

-“git gud or gtfo”

-K

Crystal Reid.2481:

This comes up a lot so I’m going to jump in quickly since it’s a new post.

Tier systems for Raids come up a lot as a result of what Fractals did. I worked on the original Fractals team and a tiered system with increased difficulty scaling was always part of the original plan for that team. It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game.

Accessibility in terms of difficulty is something we talk a lot about internally. We’ve made efforts to help players get in by delivering entry level encounters that ease you into the content (STK) and you’ll see more of that in the next release. You’ll still see encounters that live up to previous raid expectations for mid tier and final bosses. And if you think Matthias is a chump then we have something for you as well.

Accessibility in terms of “Hey, my 5 man Fractal group wants to try raids, but we can’t find 5 other players!” is also something we talk about. It’s just a much more difficult problem to solve.

I just hope Anet take only good feedback for this game! I like the new things with a lot of answer about Devs, but realy! this is for Raid / Fractal but count in as for WvW too! Take – Only – Good – Feedback! I’m scare too see a good compact of the game be kittened it up because many ppl didnt even try it (With my guild we put a lot of nowbies inside the first time and now their raiding easily… just know thing, u know..)
As a player i want see hard content, like Mythic on WoW or an Infusion Slot like Path of Exile (Infusion who give you some special power. AA deal 5% more damage, etc etc)
Try to take only the good from this community and not the all kitten storm.

TL DR; If they add a easy mode, it doesn’t give the same rewards (not even just less, ie: none or different ones) and its just there for lore, storyline and learning for the people who don’t want to do harder content but can still do the storyline.

It should offer the same type of reward, just less of it, so that players who do easy mode would need to make more repetitions to achieve the same results as someone on hard mode. People who actively enjoy hard mode should have absolutely no reason to NOT play hard mode, because they will get a higher return on their time investment by doing so, but players that do not enjoy hard mode would not be completely locked out of anything either.

If they like the idea of existing raids, they should not hate the challenge level. Your statement in of itself is a contradiction.

Not as I said it, that’s why I coupled those two statements. It’s like saying “I enjoy this spicy chicken sandwich, but it’s too spicy for me.” What that means is “the other elements that make up this sandwich are things that I enjoy, but the spice is ruining it for me. A version with less spice would be awesome.”

So I believe that there are plenty of players, myself obviously included, who would enjoy a type of content that includes all elements of the raid that are NOT about challenge. This would include the setting, the specific boss encounters, all that, just toned down in risk so that the results are less likely to lead to a wipe if mistakes are made. I understand that this is not the experience you want, and that’s fine, because you already have your version, but I have trouble believing that you cannot even comprehend the sort of version I am describing. I mean, if someone came to me and said “I’d like to see a Shadow Behemoth encounter, only much more challenging,” I could easily picture numerous ways to make that happen, even if it’s not necessarily something I’d want to play myself.

Whatever you do with raids don`t lock xp gain or any form of non-raid progress behind them for players who have no interest in raids.

I like how a dev says “it’s definitely NOT going to happen as it’s not feasible, instead we will provide entry level encounters in coming raid wings like we did in the past” and there is still people trying to argue for easy modes. Let it go already.

Also, iirc the raid team is still very small in comparison to other teams inside anet, with part of them being especially hired for raids. So I’m quite sure raids play no part in being reason for a “content drought”, which we actually don’t really have currently. Even less so if you consider all the reworks and fixes fractals got…

Crystal Reid.2481:

This comes up a lot so I’m going to jump in quickly since it’s a new post.

Tier systems for Raids come up a lot as a result of what Fractals did. I worked on the original Fractals team and a tiered system with increased difficulty scaling was always part of the original plan for that team. It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game.

Accessibility in terms of difficulty is something we talk a lot about internally. We’ve made efforts to help players get in by delivering entry level encounters that ease you into the content (STK) and you’ll see more of that in the next release. You’ll still see encounters that live up to previous raid expectations for mid tier and final bosses. And if you think Matthias is a chump then we have something for you as well.

Accessibility in terms of “Hey, my 5 man Fractal group wants to try raids, but we can’t find 5 other players!” is also something we talk about. It’s just a much more difficult problem to solve.

Crystal

First and most of all – thank you for making this comment. Seeing developers interact with the community is always a welcome sght.

As to your comments about difficulty, while I do still believe the answer is a tiered system, I see a minor flaw with the entry-level fights you reference above. Those encounters should always be at the beginning of the raids, serving to stepping stone people into more difficult encounters. I will never understand why the first of these (Bandit Trio) was placed as the fifth encounter released – and soft gated behind Slothasor. Second, as someone already mentioned above, these two fights differ so significantly from the other, more interesting, fights that they don’t serve the purpose you talk about adequately anyway – they are not stepping stone or preparatory fights. That seemed poorly planned on many levels.

Again, however, the inclusion of 2 “entry level” fights out of 9 (deep within the raid) doesn’t solve the underlying issues with raids – and will, imo, only lead to a disjointed and watered down design that is less fun for everyone. The fights need to be designed for top tier raiders, but then there needs to be some kind of mechanic that opens the story and fight experience to players who are either less dedicated or who simply enjoy playing classes that significantly deviate from the current meta – because, right now, the difficulty in raids is primarily determined by which professions you bring – and the difference between bringing an ele or a scrapper (as one example out of many) for dps is EXTREMELY significant – which is bad for the game (the old school raiding mantra “bring the player, not the class” is pretty much impossible in GW2 right now).

Regardless, I am happy to see your comments, even with the push back on tiers (which I still disagree with – there is no issue that cannot be solved, even if that issue wasn’t considered during original design). Open dialogue and conversation around this topic is important.

Galeom.6832:

Whatever you do with raids don`t lock xp gain or any form of non-raid progress behind them for players who have no interest in raids.

^ This.

Lakemine.3014:

Galeom.6832:

Whatever you do with raids don`t lock xp gain or any form of non-raid progress behind them for players who have no interest in raids.

^ This.

That’s the only thing I can agree with in terms of most complains to be honest, they should somehow manage to make it so that the raid mastery doesn’t restrict you from getting shards if you don’t have it.

Blaeys.3102:

because, right now, the difficulty in raids is primarily determined by which professions you bring – and the difference between bringing an ele or a scrapper (as one example out of many) for dps is EXTREMELY significant – which is bad for the game (the old school raiding mantra “bring the player, not the class” is pretty much impossible in GW2 right now).

That’s not something the Raid team can help with I’m afraid. That’s the balance team’s problem and has been since forever. As long as they keep balancing all game modes at the same this problem will always exist in the game. For example, in other MMORPGs you bring the Tank, the Healer and the DPS, the build you use to fulfill your chosen role is secondary, there is a list of Tank builds, Healer builds and DPS builds that you can use.

Here we don’t have that luxury. You “need” a Warrior with Phalanx Strength, Banners and Empower Allies, a Chronomancer with Wells and as much Alacrity/Quickness available, a Druid with Glyph of Empowerment, Spotter and Frost Spirit, an Elementalist with a Staff, Frostbow, Signet of Fire and Glyph of Storms.
The builds here are way too exclusive.

When players form a Raid (or dungeon) team they should ask for ROLES to fill the spots, not ultra specific builds. That’s the story of the Raid diversity thread. But solving this problem of specific builds maybe will open up Raid accessibility for a lot more people.

Ohoni.6057:

TL DR; If they add a easy mode, it doesn’t give the same rewards (not even just less, ie: none or different ones) and its just there for lore, storyline and learning for the people who don’t want to do harder content but can still do the storyline.

It should offer the same type of reward, just less of it, so that players who do easy mode would need to make more repetitions to achieve the same results as someone on hard mode. People who actively enjoy hard mode should have absolutely no reason to NOT play hard mode, because they will get a higher return on their time investment by doing so, but players that do not enjoy hard mode would not be completely locked out of anything either.

If they like the idea of existing raids, they should not hate the challenge level. Your statement in of itself is a contradiction.

Not as I said it, that’s why I coupled those two statements. It’s like saying “I enjoy this spicy chicken sandwich, but it’s too spicy for me.” What that means is “the other elements that make up this sandwich are things that I enjoy, but the spice is ruining it for me. A version with less spice would be awesome.”

So I believe that there are plenty of players, myself obviously included, who would enjoy a type of content that includes all elements of the raid that are NOT about challenge. This would include the setting, the specific boss encounters, all that, just toned down in risk so that the results are less likely to lead to a wipe if mistakes are made. I understand that this is not the experience you want, and that’s fine, because you already have your version, but I have trouble believing that you cannot even comprehend the sort of version I am describing. I mean, if someone came to me and said “I’d like to see a Shadow Behemoth encounter, only much more challenging,” I could easily picture numerous ways to make that happen, even if it’s not necessarily something I’d want to play myself.

Well the reason I say less or no rewards is its kinda like the current fractal daily rewards. ascended armor and weapon boxes don’t drop out of t1 boxes, but out of t4. (Though with my luck I never get them, but that’s not the point, the all knowing wiki says it does.) So if they do add a easy mode (or tiered system) the “t1” wont give LI but the “t4” will. Make sense? And remember that’s if they add it which atm, because I really don’t care about raids (outside of AP and rewards) because of the stupid requirements for them, its fine they way it is atm. Because I know they have a specific group/team for making the raids, but if redoing them for easy mode takes time away from making “new” raids?……eh…I would go for new stuff, even if it does take 10 months after its released to get it down. (took 3 months for VG and then 10 months for Gor and any after) Heck I havnt completed Matt yet (got him to 32%) nor Xera, but I can fake my way through all the other ones with a “less them meta” build on thief and still get clears. Just don’t like the mentality of raiders overall. (Mind you I know nice and kind ones, but few and far between) So I rarely do them unless a friend a know takes me along.

Jockum.1385:

GW2 feels like it left out the basis when it comes to group oriented content.

I think this is important enough to call out and discuss.

While I still think raids need tiered difficulties (primarily to let people significantly deviating from the meta enjoy them), there is a major gap in group oriented content in the game.

I think guild missions were supposed to fill that gap – and still could. It truly is sad that the last new PVE mission we saw was more than 3.5 years ago – compounded by the developers saying on reddit that there are no plans to add to them in the foreseeable future.

While it wouldn’t solve the underlying issue with raids, it would make the current situation in game better for those organized guilds where large numbers of players find raids either out of their reach, have issues with their design model or simply want something that isn’t restricted to 5 or 10 people.

maddoctor.2738:

Blaeys.3102:

because, right now, the difficulty in raids is primarily determined by which professions you bring – and the difference between bringing an ele or a scrapper (as one example out of many) for dps is EXTREMELY significant – which is bad for the game (the old school raiding mantra “bring the player, not the class” is pretty much impossible in GW2 right now).

That’s not something the Raid team can help with I’m afraid. That’s the balance team’s problem and has been since forever. As long as they keep balancing all game modes at the same this problem will always exist in the game. For example, in other MMORPGs you bring the Tank, the Healer and the DPS, the build you use to fulfill your chosen role is secondary, there is a list of Tank builds, Healer builds and DPS builds that you can use.

Here we don’t have that luxury. You “need” a Warrior with Phalanx Strength, Banners and Empower Allies, a Chronomancer with Wells and as much Alacrity/Quickness available, a Druid with Glyph of Empowerment, Spotter and Frost Spirit, an Elementalist with a Staff, Frostbow, Signet of Fire and Glyph of Storms.
The builds here are way too exclusive.

When players form a Raid (or dungeon) team they should ask for ROLES to fill the spots, not ultra specific builds. That’s the story of the Raid diversity thread. But solving this problem of specific builds maybe will open up Raid accessibility for a lot more people.

Hmm….I think that might be the idea. Instead of changing the fights or “weakening” or “dumbing down” or “watering down” to increase accessibility, maybe just letting more builds be viable for raids would open it up for more people? And yes you will still get those <insert negative words that cant be repeated> people that REQIURE a VERY specific build and kick you without remorse but…….kinda been that way since day one with zerk speed clears right?

But letting people run different builds on multiple classes and still get a clear I think would be good but……like you said to get that would require both teams, and that might be the problem. (Not because they hate nor want to work with each other but…….just a very big time investment.)

maddoctor.2738:

That’s not something the Raid team can help with I’m afraid. That’s the balance team’s problem and has been since forever.

Which is EXACTLY why tiered difficulties are needed. With the complexity of the GW2 build and profession systems, there will always be HUGE gaps between the top performing professions and those at the bottom (much more pronounced than those in games with simpler character build systems).

And, while there should be content balanced around or nearer to the top performers to ensure difficulty, there are many who get their primary enjoyment in GW2 from playing unique or more fun builds/playstyles.

Realistically, in order to have any shot at ever completing raiding content, those people currently have to compromise on the part of the game they really enjoy. And I’m not okay with that.

My stance is that there should be a complete raid experience for those people as well as those hardercore raiders who have less concern about compromising their playstyles in order to make raid content feasible when first starting out.

The balance issue will never go away (unless the balance team basically guts all professions and makes them play the same – which would be bad). That means the answer needs to come on the content design side – and the only way to do that is by varying the difficulty or hardcapped mechanics (eg, enrage timers in certain fights), allowing for a greater variety of playstyles (those willing to make the sacrifices should still get greater rewards, ofc).

Blaeys.3102:

maddoctor.2738:

That’s not something the Raid team can help with I’m afraid. That’s the balance team’s problem and has been since forever.

Which is EXACTLY why tiered difficulties are needed. With the complexity of the GW2 build and profession systems, there will always be HUGE gaps between the top performing professions and those at the bottom (much more pronounced than those in games with simpler character build systems).

And, while there should be content balanced around or nearer to the top performers to ensure difficulty, there are many who get their primary enjoyment in GW2 from playing unique or more fun builds/playstyles.

Realistically, in order to have any shot at ever completing raiding content, those people currently have to compromise on the part of the game they really enjoy. And I’m not okay with that.

My stance is that there should be a complete raid experience for those people as well as those hardercore raiders who have less concern about compromising their playstyles in order to make raid content feasible when first starting out.

The balance issue will never go away (unless the balance team basically guts all professions and makes them play the same – which would be bad). That means the answer needs to come on the content design side – and the only way to do that is by varying the difficulty or hardcapped mechanics (eg, enrage timers in certain fights), allowing for a greater variety of playstyles (those willing to make the sacrifices should still get greater rewards, ofc).

Tiered difficulty won’t solve this. The current raids can be cleared with almost any composition.
And as long as different classes have different skills with different effects and not just the same skills with other animations there will be a meta and it will be carried over into your easy mode.

Raids are already pretty easy and have plenty of leeway. I’ve seen people use like Venom Share cond thieves, DPS chronos and the like and still manage to kill VG and Gors.

If you wanna play your fun build it’s still totally doable, you just have to be good to pull it off.

The content isn’t balanced around top tier players, it’s balanced around the average raider or we wouldn’t be having 3 mins spare on Xera/6 man no updraft Gors if the DPS requirements were that tight.

I’ve seen RP guilds clear escort without using meta builds at all, they just slot in some common sense skills (immobilize/chill) and do the mechanics. If these non-raiders can do it, most people probably can do if they actually tried.

Blaeys.3102:

The balance issue will never go away (unless the balance team basically guts all professions and makes them play the same – which would be bad).

That’s not true. The reason we have this problem is because before HoT and before the elite specs there were no requirements for actual roles in the game, outside of PVP. In PVP there were always roles, there wasn’t just one bunker, there wasn’t only one roamer. When you used to make a PVP team you didn’t say “I want a D/D Elementalist” but rather “I want a Bunker”. You could get a shoutbow bunker Warrior, a Guardian bunker, the above mentioned D/D Ele Bunker and I’m probably forgetting some bunker choices of the good old times.

Now that we do have roles in PVE it’s up to the balance team to allow multiple builds to have the same role. You are afraid that they will play the same, but I can assure you that all those bunker builds played completely differently although they had the same role. Is it unrealistic to ask for something similar in PVE?

maddoctor.2738:

Blaeys.3102:

The balance issue will never go away (unless the balance team basically guts all professions and makes them play the same – which would be bad).

That’s not true. The reason we have this problem is because before HoT and before the elite specs there were no requirements for actual roles in the game, outside of PVP. In PVP there were always roles, there wasn’t just one bunker, there wasn’t only one roamer. When you used to make a PVP team you didn’t say “I want a D/D Elementalist” but rather “I want a Bunker”. You could get a shoutbow bunker Warrior, a Guardian bunker, the above mentioned D/D Ele Bunker and I’m probably forgetting some bunker choices of the good old times.

Now that we do have roles in PVE it’s up to the balance team to allow multiple builds to have the same role. You are afraid that they will play the same, but I can assure you that all those bunker builds played completely differently although they had the same role. Is it unrealistic to ask for something similar in PVE?

As an aside, I would actually love to see some of the systems they use to balance PvP brought into raids – most specifically, the gear system where everyone is given access to all top tier gear options from the start – using the same interchangeable amulet, rune and sigil system. Take the gearing piece out of the equation completely – giving everyone access to all of it from day one (maybe with a few select unlockables just like we see in current PvP).

That way someone doesn’t spend weeks building a set of Tizlak’s (commander’s) gear only to see balance shift and find themselves needing something completely different (that is just a hypothetical – please don’t fixate on that example). It would also make it easier for them to actually balance raids.

It would definitely go a long way toward solving the “bring the player, not the build” issue.

Blaeys.3102:

It would definitely go a long way toward solving the “bring the player, not the build” issue.

There is no “bring the player, not the build” issue. Guild Wars was always about the builds you are bringing. Build Wars anyone?

If everything works without any build requirements it only creates bland bosses where every boss feels the same. Things like reflect at Matthias are needed for interesting encounters.

Elite specializations are supposed to fill roles a class didn’t have before it got introduced so this problem will leave after some time.

Ohoni.6057:

Crystal Reid.2481:

This comes up a lot so I’m going to jump in quickly since it’s a new post.

Tier systems for Raids come up a lot as a result of what Fractals did. I worked on the original Fractals team and a tiered system with increased difficulty scaling was always part of the original plan for that team. It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game.

Accessibility in terms of difficulty is something we talk a lot about internally. We’ve made efforts to help players get in by delivering entry level encounters that ease you into the content (STK) and you’ll see more of that in the next release. You’ll still see encounters that live up to previous raid expectations for mid tier and final bosses. And if you think Matthias is a chump then we have something for you as well.

Accessibility in terms of “Hey, my 5 man Fractal group wants to try raids, but we can’t find 5 other players!” is also something we talk about. It’s just a much more difficult problem to solve.

All we need is some sort of easier versions of the existing raids, so that players that like the idea of the existing raids, but do not like the challenge level, will still be able to play and have fun with the content. The hard mode raiding is just not everyone’s cup of tea, and yet so much of the new stuff is locked behind it, like lore, environments, legendary weapons, and the ability to do anything with XP in Maguuma maps.

i guess you and I didn’t read the same thing…It’s just clearly stated by a raid dev team that what you want IS NOT POSSIBLE. Raids were not designed this way, as plenty of people told already. There are different than fractal. But look, they plan to add some easy boss like trio or escort, so you can begin to farm LI and enter into raid.
The only thing i agree with you is the XP lock. But since raid masteries are unlocked as soon as you do escort or another easy boss, then i guess it’s ok.

Crystal Reid.2481:

It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game.

In that case STOP PUTTING CORE STORY content in a part of the game designed to pander solely to the small elite minority!

Hypairion.9210:

i guess you and I didn’t read the same thing…It’s just clearly stated by a raid dev team that what you want IS NOT POSSIBLE.

That is not what was said at all. She said it was not part of the original plan for raids. The thing is – plans can change (and is sort of why these kind of conversations are so important – for everyone to advocate why they think they should or shoudnt). In fact, they have commented in the past that raids weren’t planned for when the game came out – and that plan changed. You adapt based on the community. That in no way implies that it isn’t possible (or even that plans have to remain the same forever and always).

To the second point she made – that raids should be the hardest content in the game – I think most people agree with that. That doesn’t mean they cannot be more than that however. We see it clearly in other games – people have talked extensively about how it could happen in GW2.

The point is – yes, it is very much possible. And, while there does seem to be some reticence, even on the part of some developers, the team is at least having the conversations about accessibility and even lesser difficulties. That is promising.

Blaeys.3102:

Hypairion.9210:

i guess you and I didn’t read the same thing…It’s just clearly stated by a raid dev team that what you want IS NOT POSSIBLE.

That is not what was said at all. She said it was not part of the original plan for raids. The thing is – plans can change (and is sort of why these kind of conversations are so important – for everyone to advocate why they think they should or shoudnt). In fact, they have commented in the past that raids weren’t planned for when the game came out – and that plan changed. You adapt based on the community. That in no way implies that it isn’t possible (or even that plans have to remain the same forever and always).

To the second point she made – that raids should be the hardest content in the game – I think most people agree with that. That doesn’t mean they cannot be more than that however. We see it clearly in other games – people have talked extensively about how it could happen in GW2.

Tier systems for Raids come up a lot as a result of what Fractals did. I worked on the original Fractals team and a tiered system with increased difficulty scaling was always part of the original plan for that team. It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game.

sorry but when i read that, for me it means that raid tier difficulty like fractals won’t happen, because raid were not developped with that in mind. They’re going to put easy boss at the beggenning of the raid so that more people can go into raid and beat one boss (VG problem maybe).

Kraggy.4169:

Crystal Reid.2481:

It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game.

In that case STOP PUTTING CORE STORY content in a part of the game designed to pander solely to the small elite minority!

there is no core story into raid. You enter, you beat some bosses, and if you want you read some books.

Crystal Reid.2481:

Accessibility in terms of “Hey, my 5 man Fractal group wants to try raids, but we can’t find 5 other players!” is also something we talk about. It’s just a much more difficult problem to solve.

So, we now know the reasoning behind the latest balance patch pushing the 5-5 comp. Logically, its an easy leap to see 2 different fractal groups merging with all bases covered in kitten comp as opposed to the old 4-4-2 or 7-2-1 where some players of one fractal group would have to reroll a new class.

I enjoy the mechanics of the raid, I just hope they do something different to make it challenging than what’s already being done. Mix it up a bit

Ohoni.6057:

All we need is some sort of easier versions of the existing raids, so that players that like the idea of the existing raids, but do not like the challenge level, will still be able to play and have fun with the content. The hard mode raiding is just not everyone’s cup of tea, and yet so much of the new stuff is locked behind it, like lore, environments, legendary weapons, and the ability to do anything with XP in Maguuma maps.

Too bad Ohoni, you have your final answer. You can leave it now (surprise me)

Hurray for crystal reids answer. I’m glad. Looking forward to next week

OneUP.3024:

I appretiate your philosophy and that you don’t just listen to the whiners in the community and instead do your thing. But please release the new raid already, half of my guild went inactive already.

Locusts. They’ll come back. And then leave again when the content is exhausted.

Hypairion.9210:

Blaeys.3102:

Hypairion.9210:

i guess you and I didn’t read the same thing…It’s just clearly stated by a raid dev team that what you want IS NOT POSSIBLE.

That is not what was said at all. She said it was not part of the original plan for raids. The thing is – plans can change (and is sort of why these kind of conversations are so important – for everyone to advocate why they think they should or shoudnt). In fact, they have commented in the past that raids weren’t planned for when the game came out – and that plan changed. You adapt based on the community. That in no way implies that it isn’t possible (or even that plans have to remain the same forever and always).

To the second point she made – that raids should be the hardest content in the game – I think most people agree with that. That doesn’t mean they cannot be more than that however. We see it clearly in other games – people have talked extensively about how it could happen in GW2.

Tier systems for Raids come up a lot as a result of what Fractals did. I worked on the original Fractals team and a tiered system with increased difficulty scaling was always part of the original plan for that team. It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game.

sorry but when i read that, for me it means that raid tier difficulty like fractals won’t happen, because raid were not developped with that in mind. They’re going to put easy boss at the beggenning of the raid so that more people can go into raid and beat one boss (VG problem maybe).

Kraggy.4169:

Crystal Reid.2481:

It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game.

In that case STOP PUTTING CORE STORY content in a part of the game designed to pander solely to the small elite minority!

there is no core story into raid. You enter, you beat some bosses, and if you want you read some books.

They also put stuff from the first game behind raids.

While the garbage main story is everything else. And it’s only going to get worse, with more stuff from GW1 picked as raid content.

Thats like the worst disaster any player amd lorehound from GW1 could have hoped for.

Best thing would have been for them to have made something completely disconected from the game.

Raiders dont give a crap anyway. They just want thier loot and then leave – as we see from numerous posts whining “wahhh, give us more raids, my whole guild has quit, wahhh”.

The only thing I would add is that I would love to have some way to practice against these bosses/encounters with a lower difficulty curve to learn timing and etc.
I don’t want any rewards offered, but it provides me a way to learn the content. I love the raids (what little i’ve been able to reach) but the content itself takes a lot of time to complete and if you’re group stops raiding, it isn’t a simple thing to find another ten people you mesh/coordinate well with.

I wouldn’t expect the content to be handed to me, and I accept I might not ever be able to complete the content due to my own personal situation but it would be nice if there was something that allowed people to learn the mechanics and test out how well their build is working against a particular boss.

Again I don’t want an easier path to achieve the same goals, I would like to be able to learn the encounters on my own time so that I would be ready to go when/if the chance arises to try it again.

Sorry ANet but you guys are completely tone deaf and old fashioned about this compared to your major competitors that offer tiered raiding for the plebs and elites alike, tiered raiding never bothered Mythic Raiders in WoW or Nighmare Mode raiders in SWTOR, or what ever passes for top tier in FF14 either but hey what do I know other than the fact that each of those games has players in the millions.

I don’t do raids because I don’t like them.
I’m sure that if I put my mind to it, geared up the proper character correctly, set up the proper traits, etc., that I’d do just fine at them, but they are just tedious to me. They’re like that jumping puzzle you do once after hours and hours of trying and then swear “Never again!”, except the “Never again!” came sooner, rather than later.

That being said, I heartily resent the fact that if I want legendary armor, I’ll be forced to do raids . . .not just a little . . . but OVER and OVER and OVER until even if I loved raids I’d be sick of it. There’s no fractal option to get the same thing done. Heck, I’d settle for a rare drop off of a world boss. No, I’m pretty much forced to raid or forgo legendary armor.

So basically my choice is to forgo legendary armor.

But a tiered system might very well solve this problem.

Kraggy.4169:

Crystal Reid.2481:

It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game.

In that case STOP PUTTING CORE STORY content in a part of the game designed to pander solely to the small elite minority!

What core story ? You don’t need to play/understand raids in order to play the LW episodes…Personnally, I don’t even know what happened in raids

Add an infantile and tribulation mode to raids and balance achievements/rewards accordingly

Cronos.6532:

Add an infantile and tribulation mode to raids and balance achievements/rewards accordingly

And block new raid content for an indefinite amount of time due to development issues?

No thx!

I think having easy mode encounters in raids are terrible. They are a time waste for people who enjoy high difficulty encounters and offer too good rewards for people who just want rewards. Easy encounters should give no ascended items or legendary insights for example.

Crystal Reid.2481:

This comes up a lot so I’m going to jump in quickly since it’s a new post.

Tier systems for Raids come up a lot as a result of what Fractals did. I worked on the original Fractals team and a tiered system with increased difficulty scaling was always part of the original plan for that team. It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game.

Accessibility in terms of difficulty is something we talk a lot about internally. We’ve made efforts to help players get in by delivering entry level encounters that ease you into the content (STK) and you’ll see more of that in the next release. You’ll still see encounters that live up to previous raid expectations for mid tier and final bosses. And if you think Matthias is a chump then we have something for you as well.

Accessibility in terms of “Hey, my 5 man Fractal group wants to try raids, but we can’t find 5 other players!” is also something we talk about. It’s just a much more difficult problem to solve.

Cannot agree more.!
Thumbs up
Btw I never think Matt is easy ..mercy please lol

Well the reason I say less or no rewards is its kinda like the current fractal daily rewards. ascended armor and weapon boxes don’t drop out of t1 boxes, but out of t4. (Though with my luck I never get them, but that’s not the point, the all knowing wiki says it does.) So if they do add a easy mode (or tiered system) the “t1” wont give LI but the “t4” will. Make sense?

No, it doesn’t make sense. All that would do is encourage players to “train up” and do the hard mode version, but the entire point is to allow players who do not enjoy hard mode to not do hard mode. You shouldn’t have to do t4 Fractals unless t4 Fractals are something you actually enjoy doing. If you do enjoy t4 Fractals, then they should be the most efficient use of your time, but if you don’t, then you should be able to do t1 if you like, and still progress towards your eventual goals. There is no merit in having players doing content that they do not enjoy.

sorry but when i read that, for me it means that raid tier difficulty like fractals won’t happen, because raid were not developped with that in mind.

They didn’t have to be developed with tiers in mind for tiers to be implemented. They already have all the tools they need to copy/paste the raid, then tweak the bosses down slightly, then provide players access to these duplicate wings via the same UI they currently use to choose between raid wings. All the bits already exists, they just need to combine them.

Ohoni.6057:

They didn’t have to be developed with tiers in mind for tiers to be implemented. They already have all the tools they need to copy/paste the raid, then tweak the bosses down slightly, then provide players access to these duplicate wings via the same UI they currently use to choose between raid wings. All the bits already exists, they just need to combine them.

But they won’t.

gg

Ohoni.6057:

Well the reason I say less or no rewards is its kinda like the current fractal daily rewards. ascended armor and weapon boxes don’t drop out of t1 boxes, but out of t4. (Though with my luck I never get them, but that’s not the point, the all knowing wiki says it does.) So if they do add a easy mode (or tiered system) the “t1” wont give LI but the “t4” will. Make sense?

No, it doesn’t make sense. All that would do is encourage players to “train up” and do the hard mode version, but the entire point is to allow players who do not enjoy hard mode to not do hard mode. You shouldn’t have to do t4 Fractals unless t4 Fractals are something you actually enjoy doing. If you do enjoy t4 Fractals, then they should be the most efficient use of your time, but if you don’t, then you should be able to do t1 if you like, and still progress towards your eventual goals. There is no merit in having players doing content that they do not enjoy.

sorry but when i read that, for me it means that raid tier difficulty like fractals won’t happen, because raid were not developped with that in mind.

They didn’t have to be developed with tiers in mind for tiers to be implemented. They already have all the tools they need to copy/paste the raid, then tweak the bosses down slightly, then provide players access to these duplicate wings via the same UI they currently use to choose between raid wings. All the bits already exists, they just need to combine them.

We got here a clear info from a dev stating: “No tiered difficulties for raids” so just get over it.

Yeh no means no.. and pls stop begging for change.
I hv recently seen an increase in numbers in new raiders and in lfg. I think a bit more time raids will be like dungeon runs.
Already pug group making no ts full smooth run it’s a matter of time.

They didn’t have to be developed with tiers in mind for tiers to be implemented. They already have all the tools they need to copy/paste the raid, then tweak the bosses down slightly, then provide players access to these duplicate wings via the same UI they currently use to choose between raid wings. All the bits already exists, they just need to combine them.

Hmm, for you it seems so easy, but if it were the case, don’t you think devs aldready would have done that? but no, they come with another solution. If you don’t like it, it’s your right, but just get over it, really. Moreover, you also have another problem, wanting raid loot in easy mode, unlike some defenders of easy mode raids.

Crystal Reid.2481:

The next release won’t have an event style boss like STK or Trio. Not saying we’ll never do them again, it just didn’t fit in the next release.

Siege the Stronghold and Prison Camp are the ones that give weekly rewards like the big bosses, but will it have a minor less-rewarding encounter like Spirit Woods or Twisted Castle, used as an interesting transition between bosses?

Ohoni.6057:

Well the reason I say less or no rewards is its kinda like the current fractal daily rewards. ascended armor and weapon boxes don’t drop out of t1 boxes, but out of t4. (Though with my luck I never get them, but that’s not the point, the all knowing wiki says it does.) So if they do add a easy mode (or tiered system) the “t1” wont give LI but the “t4” will. Make sense?

No, it doesn’t make sense. All that would do is encourage players to “train up” and do the hard mode version, but the entire point is to allow players who do not enjoy hard mode to not do hard mode. You shouldn’t have to do t4 Fractals unless t4 Fractals are something you actually enjoy doing. If you do enjoy t4 Fractals, then they should be the most efficient use of your time, but if you don’t, then you should be able to do t1 if you like, and still progress towards your eventual goals. There is no merit in having players doing content that they do not enjoy.

sorry but when i read that, for me it means that raid tier difficulty like fractals won’t happen, because raid were not developped with that in mind.

They didn’t have to be developed with tiers in mind for tiers to be implemented. They already have all the tools they need to copy/paste the raid, then tweak the bosses down slightly, then provide players access to these duplicate wings via the same UI they currently use to choose between raid wings. All the bits already exists, they just need to combine them.

If you want the rewards that T4 fractals give you have to do T4 fractals. and T4 fractals do have unique rewards.

There is already precedent for content having unique rewards that if you do not like an aspect of the game but want the reward that comes with it, you have to choose which evil you deal with: not having that reward or playing the aspect of the game that you don’t like for as long as it takes to get the reward.

Gift of Battle requires playing WvW long enough to finish up the required WvW Reward Track for it. There are easier dailies that help with small little items that boost progress, but you still have to play WvW.

Endless Fractal Tonic requires playing Fractals to get as it’s account bound on acquire.

Gift of Exploration requires playing Open World PvE to get it.

So if sometime in the distant future (it’s obvious by the post here that it’s not something that they currently plan on adding at all), it should not offer all of the rewards that the hardest tier Raids offer. Which I would say would exclude the legendary item at minimum. LI would be debatable depending on how they did it.

I’d say the best thing would be when they have a few full raids released, that they introduce “mini-raids”. “Mini-raids” would be short one boss, no trash mobs, encounters that would have similar mechanics to the bosses in the current raids. Much like Fractals were designed to be shorter dungeons for those who can’t spend a couple of hours trying to figure out a dungeon, mini-raids would be the equivalent. And at such a time a new set of legendary armor could come out that would require “mini-raids” to earn. That way full raids keep their exclusive skin and those who don’t want to do full raids can get the same stat swapping ability and a unique skin of their own.

Talindra.4958:

Yeh no means no.. and pls stop begging for change.
I hv recently seen an increase in numbers in new raiders and in lfg. I think a bit more time raids will be like dungeon runs.
Already pug group making no ts full smooth run it’s a matter of time.

That won’t stop us from pushing back, the squeaky wheel gets the oil.

I really hope ArenaNet is paying attention to how this conversation is playing out in media outside of these forums – including Reddit (including looking at comment upvotes), the comments section of the article on Massively today, the comments section on Dulfy related to this thread, etc.

OK then, I definitely have lost all interest in participating in raids. I just don’t have the time to spend on them. I also don’t care about the legendary armor, so there really isn’t any motivation to dig into raiding from that angle either.

In that case, please unlock the XP gain from raiding so that those of us who are never going to raid can once again earn spirit shards from the XP earned ‘playing the game as we want’ or have time for.

And, please don’t ever lock other things behind exclusive, elite content in your future designs.

I actually work in the industry that enables the modern world (semiconductors), building the very computer chips that run your game servers, software development computers, smartphones, etc. Therefore, I find it very frustrating to be ‘virtually locked out’ of anything behind a virtual curtain of eliteness in a gaming environment. Games are supposed to be fun, not frustrating.

Read the comments in this thread. If you still don’t get it then i am sorry

No, seriously. Nothing has changed. Why would nothing widen the the gap?

Just step away Vince, some folks aren’t willing to listen to reason.

They also blatantly want to ignore the ramifications of the ‘success’ stories you hear from other MMOs doing things the ‘right way’ I guess.

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/52fxo1/ama_league_design_lead_greg_ghostcrawler_street/d7jwm98/?st=ivocegs2&sh=c80d5a04

Oh whoops, I dropped something. My bad.