Guild Wars 2

Rednik.3809:

Talindra.4958:

People need to understand you can’t expect to kill the boss without training. Why ? Bcos theres a lot of mechanics involve and each players has a specific task or tasks to get the team through. And if one person make mistakes that person can cause a wipe and restart. everyone needs to be good enough not saying pro but good enough and get his task/s done. it’s not like other content in the game where you can just jump in and get things done. That’s too easy and no challenge and no fun in that.

Emm… no? Even vanilla wow never had such an absurd requirement, and this is one of the main reasons why raiding population here floating near 5%. Wiping while “training” just because one person made a mistake is an absolutely absurd idea.

yea, on that I have to agree. So many times a raid in WOW succeeded on just 2 folks staying alive….Shammy self rez ftw!! But I have noticed that GW2 raids are a tad unforgiving in that aspect, green circles on VG come to mind. Take your every day average guild raid group and have 1 person miss the GC and its a wipe, most times. That could use some fixing I reckon but aside from that the raids are ok.

Joxer.6024:

yea, on that I have to agree. So many times a raid in WOW succeeded on just 2 folks staying alive….Shammy self rez ftw!! But I have noticed that GW2 raids are a tad unforgiving in that aspect, green circles on VG come to mind. Take your every day average guild raid group and have 1 person miss the GC and its a wipe, most times. That could use some fixing I reckon but aside from that the raids are ok.

That’s why you send an extra person to the green circle, so if one misses the circle, there is a back-up. Also, you can completely ignore the green circles and still kill VG, it needs some preparation and skillful usage of your tools though.

As an example only….WOW has Heroic raids and Heroic gear you get from doing them. They also have Mythic raids and you get the better Mythic gear from doing those. You DO NOT get Mythic gear from doing a heroic/normal raid, period.

But WoW is a raid-grinding game. GW2 neither needs nor wants to be a raid-grinding game.

Ohoni.6057:

But WoW is a raid-grinding game. GW2 neither needs nor wants to be a raid-grinding game.

“Raid-grinding”? What does that even mean?

Hypairion.9210:

As I keep telling you, I want both, independently of each other, and securing one would not cause me to stop wanting the other. I’ll ask you to please stop lying about me.

And as I keep telling you, there is no logical reason except beeing greedy and selfish to want both

Sure. There is also no logical reason to play raids (or even GW2). “Want” is always based on emotion, not logic.

Of course, the same works for the other side. There’s no logical reason those rewards have to be exclusive, or raids need to be challenging. It’s happening only because some people like them to be that way.

Joxer.6024:

ok, now you don’t have any smarts. They ARE NOT independent as a “raid reward” is what you, the player, gets from ….wait for it……..“RAIDING!”

That’s purely a result of Anet’s arbitrary decision that can change at any time. It’s not like there’s any inherent quality of those rewards that makes them unsuitable for other content. Not even thematic ties are enough, as pvp dungeon reward tracks proved once before.

Just give them whiners lege armor for free and end that BS conversation about raid accessibility. It all comes down to lazy casuals demanding to be given shinies for free. It has nothing to do with learning curve and practicing before real challenge or content being restricted behind raids. All post here just beat that dead dressed-in-lege-armor-horse.

just my 2 ignorant cents

Joxer.6024:

As an example only….WOW has Heroic raids and Heroic gear you get from doing them. They also have Mythic raids and you get the better Mythic gear from doing those. You DO NOT get Mythic gear from doing a heroic/normal raid, period.

They also have stat and gear progression that makes those raids easily doable by anyone eventually.

“Raid-grinding”? What does that even mean?

Once you reach endgame in WoW, it becomes all about grinding one raid so that you can grind the next, and so on until you run out and they put out a new expansion. That is not GW2, Gw2 is escape from that treadmill, and it always should be. If GW2 is to incorporate raids, they should be TRULY optional, not just “you don’t have to do them, but you’ll miss out on things,” but true “you don’t have to do them at all, because anything you can see in the raid, you can find elsewhere.”

The only people who should EVER be running raids are people who can enjoy raiding.

Ohoni.6057:

“Raid-grinding”? What does that even mean?

Once you reach endgame in WoW, it becomes all about grinding one raid so that you can grind the next, and so on until you run out and they put out a new expansion. That is not GW2, Gw2 is escape from that treadmill, and it always should be. If GW2 is to incorporate raids, they should be TRULY optional, not just “you don’t have to do them, but you’ll miss out on things,” but true “you don’t have to do them at all, because anything you can see in the raid, you can find elsewhere.”

The only people who should EVER be running raids are people who can enjoy raiding.

Uh… No. You can enter any new raid tier without having done the previous ones, because WoW has tons of catch-up mechanics. Gear does only one thing: It self-nerfs content in a positive way, making content easier every week for people as you succeed.

You can enter any new raid tier without having done the previous ones, because WoW has tons of catch-up mechanics.

But if you do them as they release, there are no catch-ups, since those get added later. If a given content drops with three raids, you need to grind 1 to get the gear for 2, then 2 to get the gear for 3, and then 3 just for bragging rights because when the next big patch comes out anyone can get raid-3 quality gear off trash mobs, which they’ll need for the new raid 1, but which newbs can use to go back and stomp the previous raids 1 and 2.

So yes, as Astra pointed out, WoW does add elements over time that trivializes older raids. That is their “easy mode.” If GW2 was following WoW’s model, then if you were to take a team of scrubs that would wipe constantly to Gorseval today, then after XPac 2 releases and they did a little trash mob farming, they would be able to take him out in a five-man team with no more training. ANet have promised that this, at least, is not in their design, and that makes sense, but they do need to provide some way for players who don’t enjoy hardcore challenge to experience the content of the raids, if stat progression is not on the table.

They intend raids to remain the most difficult content, so self-nerfing mechanisms like gear progression will not happen. Raids will always be at the mercy of any balance changes though.

I’m also really puzzled by your WoW comments… There have been so many ways to obtain gear and catch up, even at the start of expansions… I’m guessing you’re going off of very outdated information though.

They intend raids to remain the most difficult content, so self-nerfing mechanisms like gear progression will not happen. Raids will always be at the mercy of any balance changes though.

I truly don’t expect balance changes in future that will auto-nerf the existing raids to any significant degree though. The vanilla game was balanced around exotics and no elite specs, and got auto-nerfed by adding a new tier of gearing and a stronger bonus skillset, but I doubt they’ll ever add a tier above Ascended, and I believe that the XPac 2 Elites will be designed to be balanced against the existing ones, just offering new gameplay styles and roles for each class, so I basically don’t see the existing raids ever getting any easier by incident. That means that if players want an easier version, an easier version will need to be made for them deliberately.

I’m also really puzzled by your WoW comments… There have been so many ways to obtain gear and catch up, even at the start of expansions… I’m guessing you’re going off of very outdated information though.

Perhaps I am. So you’re telling me that when a new WoW expansion comes out, you can go somewhere to get geared up well enough to jump right into the most challenging raid of that expansion, without having to do any of the other raids from that expansion first? That’s interesting.

@Ohoni, there is a post on reddit about easy mode raid. What is interesting is the OP is asking for story mode, but understand that no reward should be available through it…

Édit: actually, it’s on this sub forum too…

maddoctor.2738:

Joxer.6024:

yea, on that I have to agree. So many times a raid in WOW succeeded on just 2 folks staying alive….Shammy self rez ftw!! But I have noticed that GW2 raids are a tad unforgiving in that aspect, green circles on VG come to mind. Take your every day average guild raid group and have 1 person miss the GC and its a wipe, most times. That could use some fixing I reckon but aside from that the raids are ok.

That’s why you send an extra person to the green circle, so if one misses the circle, there is a back-up. Also, you can completely ignore the green circles and still kill VG, it needs some preparation and skillful usage of your tools though.

yea, that’s why I used the example of “average guild” raid group, those that are not that experienced in all the mechanics.

Astralporing.1957:

Joxer.6024:

As an example only….WOW has Heroic raids and Heroic gear you get from doing them. They also have Mythic raids and you get the better Mythic gear from doing those. You DO NOT get Mythic gear from doing a heroic/normal raid, period.

They also have stat and gear progression that makes those raids easily doable by anyone eventually.

BINGO!! You nailed it! “progression”….from doing the raids. Not from being handed the gear out the gate. And then yea, eventually all can do them, hopefully. But Mythic aint easy nor should it be.

And yea, WOW has ruined raiding for the most part by doing just what has been mentioned, they dumbed them down. Hopefully ANET will stay away from that.

As an aside….@Ohoni, I don’t do fractals. Why? I hate jumping puzzles. If I wanted to play a platform game I would play Castlevania. But Fracts have some really nice loots, of which I have been told I cant get unless I do them, along with achievements I would like to get and masteries but I wont ever get them because I cant stand to do the fracts that have the jumping in them. Now, does that mean I get to demand that ANET remove that part of the fractal because I don’t like it and suck at it? If so, then I am behind you all the way…but I doubt it.

Rednik.3809:

Emm… no? Even vanilla wow never had such an absurd requirement, and this is one of the main reasons why raiding population here floating near 5%. Wiping while “training” just because one person made a mistake is an absolutely absurd idea.

I’d love to see your data on that 5%

@Ohoni, there is a post on reddit about easy mode raid. What is interesting is the OP is asking for story mode, but understand that no reward should be available through it…

Yes, different people CAN want different things. Amazing, I know.

As an aside….@Ohoni, I don’t do fractals. Why? I hate jumping puzzles. If I wanted to play a platform game I would play Castlevania.

I don’t recall Fractals having particularly bad jumping puzzles, and if you aren’t very good at them, you can typically skip up them after the rest of your party. Anyone who can do raid content should have zero trouble getting through fractal platforming. But as to your actual point. . .

. But Fracts have some really nice loots, of which I have been told I cant get unless I do them, along with achievements I would like to get and masteries but I wont ever get them because I cant stand to do the fracts that have the jumping in them.

Yeah, that is a bummer, and it shouldn’t surprise you that I’m on your side here. I don’t think you should have to run Fractals to get anything you’d want. Items that have a Fractal theme should be easiest to get via Fractals, and anyone who both wants those items AND enjoys Fractals should have no question in his mind that grinding Fractals is the best way for him to get them, but players who just never want to Frac, they should have alternatives, paths where if they work hard enough at some other types of content they can earn those same items.

Now, does that mean I get to demand that ANET remove that part of the fractal because I don’t like it and suck at it? If so, then I am behind you all the way…but I doubt it.

Thanks!

“I don’t recall Fractals having particularly bad jumping puzzles, and if you aren’t very good at them, you can typically skip up them after the rest of your party. Anyone who can do raid content should have zero trouble getting through fractal platforming.”

They aren’t bad…I just don’t like them. Others love them, so what gives me the right o demand that that part gets removed? And I happen to enjoy raiding, just not the meta attitude.Your logic is twisted and will never sway so with that I’m out.

Ohoni.6057:

So you’re telling me that when a new WoW expansion comes out, you can go somewhere to get geared up well enough to jump right into the most challenging raid of that expansion, without having to do any of the other raids from that expansion first? That’s interesting.

At the start of an expansion, Blizzard has been staggering the release of their content. Here’s an example of the release schedule for the launch of Legion: (Link) (Some terminology: “Mythic” is hard mode; “Raid Finder” is the fail-proof easy mode; “Heroic” is normal mode; “Mythic Keystones” are basically Fractal Difficulty Scales)

Rednik.3809:

Talindra.4958:

People need to understand you can’t expect to kill the boss without training. Why ? Bcos theres a lot of mechanics involve and each players has a specific task or tasks to get the team through. And if one person make mistakes that person can cause a wipe and restart. everyone needs to be good enough not saying pro but good enough and get his task/s done. it’s not like other content in the game where you can just jump in and get things done. That’s too easy and no challenge and no fun in that.

Emm… no? Even vanilla wow never had such an absurd requirement, and this is one of the main reasons why raiding population here floating near 5%. Wiping while “training” just because one person made a mistake is an absolutely absurd idea.

Uhmm what? So getting to know the Boss better is now an absurd Requirement?

Do you also know what Requirements the vanilla Raids of WoW had? The requirements in GW2 are completely laughable in comparison.

They aren’t bad…I just don’t like them. Others love them, so what gives me the right o demand that that part gets removed?

Nothing, just as I would have no right, or reason to say that the base version of raids should be nerfed to a level I’m comfortable with, but if you would enjoy an alternative more, I don’t see why there couldn’t be space for that too. That’s why I’m in favor of an easier version, rather than a nerf to the default raids. For example, in the lowest tier difficulties of Fractals, I don’t see why they couldn’t have a “golden tanuki suit” sort of option for the platforming segments where if you fail at them enough you’re given a shortcut past them.

Serious Fractal players wouldn’t need that, and it wouldn’t allow any real cheating of the content since it wouldn’t be available in the more advanced tiers, but it would at least allow players like yourself to get all the way through the other parts of the Fractal without difficulty. They already even have much of this, in that every Fractal I can think of with a jumping portion, either players that get past it can disable the traps that would make it challenging, or they unlock a checkpoint so that if you die, you respawn at the top with them.

Seriously, if you need accommodations, there’s no reason to not request them.

At the start of an expansion, Blizzard has been staggering the release of their content. Here’s an example of the release schedule for the launch of Legion: (Link) (Some terminology: “Mythic” is hard mode; “Raid Finder” is the fail-proof easy mode; “Heroic” is normal mode; “Mythic Keystones” are basically Fractal Difficulty Scales)

Ok, but like when they release the final raid of that expansion set, whatever that may be, there are places you can go to gear up that would allow you to reasonably tackle that raid, having skipped all the previous raids of that expansion? Like there would be quests or farming locations that would drop gear comparable to what you’d get by clearing the second-to-last raid?

Ohoni.6057:

Ok, but like when they release the final raid of that expansion set, whatever that may be, there are places you can go to gear up that would allow you to reasonably tackle that raid, having skipped all the previous raids of that expansion? Like there would be quests or farming locations that would drop gear comparable to what you’d get by clearing the second-to-last raid?

The short answer is yes. The end of an expansion is when you have the most options for gear. I hesitate to comment on Legion since it’s not the end yet. However, one thing Legion does offer that’s new though is that they have a difficult dungeon mode (Mythic) which has its highest level drops loot on par with the current tier of raids. Blizzard has done other things like this in the past, such as Timeless Isle or having dungeons drop powerful gear. (Icecrown dungeons)

Talindra.4958:

Oh geez…. Relax guys .. You guys getting too wrap up with this..
Btw, I just done my full clear this week with pugs again just now..with completely different players except my husband that I know and play with next to me.
This week took us a bit longer than last week around 2.5hrs. There’s laughing and ppl joking around in ts. Like usual, i hv my mic muted.
My husband and i raids with minimum 400ping not 50 or 200. :p so ppl actually hv mercy with us in raids

In my oppinion, raids is really not hard. For those who seriously want to get into raids, do not give up too soon. Bcos, you can only defeat the boss by not giving up trying. If you can’t accept this, then you really shouldn’t be near it and you shouldnt be here to take it down with all your might too. Bcos there are many ppl tht hv fun in raids who doesn’t bother coming to forum and post em here. Similar to SAB trib mode. Those who enjoy never creep here to tell of their fun. Only after they suspend the future release of it

To the raid dev team.. Good job and keep the good work up.

I love that!! My wife and both play and we raided together in WOW like forever. That’s actually where I met her and I have since married her ( I was widowed) and moved to Australia! Love it here!!! And yea, that ping…so sad….go go Telstra!
She is still a tad scared of the raids in this game having only just stepped a toe into VG but maybe I can get her back into it. I was always the tank and she the heals but with GW2 its a whole different ballgame, and she has to pay attention!!!

maddoctor.2738:

I’d love to see your data on that 5%

gw2e, you’re welcome

Uhmm what? So getting to know the Boss better is now an absurd Requirement?

Do you also know what Requirements the vanilla Raids of WoW had? The requirements in GW2 are completely laughable in comparison.

Not being afk during raid and grind for consumables?

Rednik.3809:

maddoctor.2738:

I’d love to see your data on that 5%

gw2e, you’re welcome

Some actual data somewhere?

maddoctor.2738:

Some actual data somewhere?

100k API keys is not actual enough for you?

Rednik.3809:

maddoctor.2738:

Some actual data somewhere?

100k API keys is not actual enough for you?

20% of players with 4k+ hours in the game have a minimum of 46 LI, so players with lots of hours are indeed raiding, what more do you want from a 20%?

There is a little more to it than just easy versus hard. For me, the bigger issue – and reason we need tiered difficulty in some form, is the disparity between top and bottom performing professions/builds/comps.

To enjoy raids in their current form, you most likely have to change your build and/or exclude friends who play low performing professions. And even that would be okay if there were some way for people who don’t want to make those sacrifices to realistically enjoy raids.

Right now, the difference between a fresh air elementalist or PS Warrior and a hammer scrapper or longbow ranger (or about a dozen other enjoyable playstyles) in terms of raid viability is not 5-10%; it’s probably closer to 75-100%.

And that is unlikely to change anytime soon. The only way to fix it would be to basically make more professions play the same – something that they would have NEVER have even considered a few years ago, btw, because at that time, the focus was on fun and unique gameplay. .

People who are unlucky enough to enjoy the lesser performing professions and builds are essentially locked out of 90% of raid groups right now – and in those they can play in, they significantly reduce the chances of success.

Now, individuals/groups willing to make the changes deserve higher reward. I’m not debating that. But those people who enjoy playing scrappers or axe necros or whatever should have a way to enjoy raids as much as anyone else (even if the reward is lesser).

That to me is the big issue. Yes, it is partly player created, but it is still an issue that isn’t going away anytime soon. And, even if it does go away, it could easily reappear with any balance patch with little to no warning.

I still think there should be tiered difficulty simply because people would enjoy it – it would add fun to the game (something Anet used to care a lot more about, imo) – but the issue I outline above is probably one of the bigger aspects to this issue.

maddoctor.2738:

20% of players with 4k+ hours in the game have a minimum of 46 LI, so players with lots of hours are indeed raiding, what more do you want from a 20%?

We are talking about total population, not 4k+. Or you have data that sub-4k players are not paying money to Anet?

Talindra.4958:

Joxer.6024:

Talindra.4958:

Oh geez…. Relax guys .. You guys getting too wrap up with this..
Btw, I just done my full clear this week with pugs again just now..with completely different players except my husband that I know and play with next to me.
This week took us a bit longer than last week around 2.5hrs. There’s laughing and ppl joking around in ts. Like usual, i hv my mic muted.
My husband and i raids with minimum 400ping not 50 or 200. :p so ppl actually hv mercy with us in raids

In my oppinion, raids is really not hard. For those who seriously want to get into raids, do not give up too soon. Bcos, you can only defeat the boss by not giving up trying. If you can’t accept this, then you really shouldn’t be near it and you shouldnt be here to take it down with all your might too. Bcos there are many ppl tht hv fun in raids who doesn’t bother coming to forum and post em here. Similar to SAB trib mode. Those who enjoy never creep here to tell of their fun. Only after they suspend the future release of it

To the raid dev team.. Good job and keep the good work up.

I love that!! My wife and both play and we raided together in WOW like forever. That’s actually where I met her and I have since married her ( I was widowed) and moved to Australia! Love it here!!! And yea, that ping…so sad….go go Telstra!
She is still a tad scared of the raids in this game having only just stepped a toe into VG but maybe I can get her back into it. I was always the tank and she the heals but with GW2 its a whole different ballgame, and she has to pay attention!!!

Are you really so upset? Wow I’m sorry !

Upset at what? Not me for sure.

Rednik.3809:

maddoctor.2738:

20% of players with 4k+ hours in the game have a minimum of 46 LI, so players with lots of hours are indeed raiding, what more do you want from a 20%?

We are talking about total population, not 4k+. Or you have data that sub-4k players are not paying money to Anet?

Next thing you will say is to count free accounts too, or alt accounts, or bank accounts. Not to mention there is no middle statistic and it goes from 50% to 20%, which means there is a possibility from 21% to 49% to indeed be raiding. It’s not exactly accurate

Blaeys.3102:

People who are unlucky enough to enjoy the lesser performing professions and builds are essentially locked out of 90% of raid groups right now – and in those they can play in, they significantly reduce the chances of success.

that’s me in a nutshell as to why I don’t raid anymore. I play Engi, enjoy it, am good at it, know the fights but people just don’t want them. Ah well….

maddoctor.2738:

Next thing you will say is to count free accounts too, or alt accounts, or bank accounts. Not to mention there is no middle statistic and it goes from 50% to 20%, which means there is a possibility from 21% to 49% to indeed be raiding. It’s not exactly accurate

Again, if you have no data saying that any of these accounts are not paying any money, then you cannot exclude them from pool. Ergo, we are talking about 100% of them. And probably real data is even worse for raiders, because getting API key for gw2e requires some determination.

Blaeys.3102:

There is a little more to it than just easy versus hard. For me, the bigger issue – and reason we need tiered difficulty in some form, is the disparity between top and bottom performing professions/builds/comps.

To enjoy raids in their current form, you most likely have to change your build and/or exclude friends who play low performing professions. And even that would be okay if there were some way for people who don’t want to make those sacrifices to realistically enjoy raids.

Right now, the difference between a fresh air elementalist or PS Warrior and a hammer scrapper or longbow ranger (or about a dozen other enjoyable playstyles) in terms of raid viability is not 5-10%; it’s probably closer to 75-100%.

And that is unlikely to change anytime soon. The only way to fix it would be to basically make more professions play the same – something that they would have NEVER have even considered a few years ago, btw, because at that time, the focus was on fun and unique gameplay. .

People who are unlucky enough to enjoy the lesser performing professions and builds are essentially locked out of 90% of raid groups right now – and in those they can play in, they significantly reduce the chances of success.

Now, individuals/groups willing to make the changes deserve higher reward. I’m not debating that. But those people who enjoy playing scrappers or axe necros or whatever should have a way to enjoy raids as much as anyone else (even if the reward is lesser).

That to me is the big issue. Yes, it is partly player created, but it is still an issue that isn’t going away anytime soon. And, even if it does go away, it could easily reappear with any balance patch with little to no warning.

I still think there should be tiered difficulty simply because people would enjoy it – it would add fun to the game (something Anet used to care a lot more about, imo) – but the issue I outline above is probably one of the bigger aspects to this issue.

This is no different than pvp and wvw. You cannot use any build there and be successful.

Plus, I just think balance is terrible (especially with engie and necro). Can’t fault raids there.

Rednik.3809:

Again, if you have no data saying that any of these accounts are not paying any money, then you cannot exclude them from pool. Ergo, we are talking about 100% of them. And probably real data is even worse for raiders, because getting API key for gw2e requires some determination.

Now you are being funny.

You can see in the image that to reach 75% of the playerbase you need 152 Airship parts average. 152 Airship parts is what you can get easily after a SINGLE run in VB. This means that 25% of the population of the game run VB once in their lifetime.

To reach 50% of the playerbase you need 494 Airship parts on average, which is ~2.5 runs in VB. Which means on average those on gw2efficiency run VB two and a half times until now.

In other words using gw2efficiency data, since you cannot 0 your airship parts, the amount of the accounts that are playing Heart of Thorns is -much- less than 50% of the total of the registered accounts of gw2efficiency.

If you check unbound magic it shows clearly that only 50% of the population has any, and getting unbound magic is stupidly easy compared to let’s say Legendary Insights.

From the above you can conclude VERY easily that half the accounts of gw2efficiency are either bank/alt accounts, free accounts, don’t have hot installed or the owners stopped playing before LS3 even started.

10% of players on average do have LI. 10% of players have LI, while 50% are playing in Heart of Thorns zones.

I think using gw2efficiency we can see an actual problem, that has nothing to do with raids.

In total, using 100k accounts, 50k of those don’t play anymore, at least in content that requires heart of thorns (hot zones or LS3 content) and 10k of those play in Raids. 1/5 of the population, or 20%, is raiding which is what I said

Rednik.3809:

maddoctor.2738:

Next thing you will say is to count free accounts too, or alt accounts, or bank accounts. Not to mention there is no middle statistic and it goes from 50% to 20%, which means there is a possibility from 21% to 49% to indeed be raiding. It’s not exactly accurate

Again, if you have no data saying that any of these accounts are not paying any money, then you cannot exclude them from pool. Ergo, we are talking about 100% of them. And probably real data is even worse for raiders, because getting API key for gw2e requires some determination.

How money is related to a discussion about pve endgame?

Rednik.3809:

maddoctor.2738:

Next thing you will say is to count free accounts too, or alt accounts, or bank accounts. Not to mention there is no middle statistic and it goes from 50% to 20%, which means there is a possibility from 21% to 49% to indeed be raiding. It’s not exactly accurate

Again, if you have no data saying that any of these accounts are not paying any money, then you cannot exclude them from pool. Ergo, we are talking about 100% of them. And probably real data is even worse for raiders, because getting API key for gw2e requires some determination.

You can argue about data all day, but there are all flaws in your analysis. If you looked at the number of players who’ve pvp and wvw, SINCE HOT, it’s similar to those who’ve raided.

If you don’t like the data set, then don’t use it. But you seem to make outrageous claims with it.

maddoctor.2738:

In other words using gw2efficiency data, since you cannot 0 your airship parts

I cannot? Why? I certainly did zero it several times already. I had no idea that was forbidden for some reason.

maddoctor.2738:

Now you are being funny.

You can see in the image that to reach 75% of the playerbase you need 152 Airship parts average. 152 Airship parts is what you can get easily after a SINGLE run in VB. This means that 25% of the population of the game run VB once in their lifetime.

To reach 50% of the playerbase you need 494 Airship parts on average, which is ~2.5 runs in VB. Which means on average those on gw2efficiency run VB two and a half times until now.

In other words using gw2efficiency data, since you cannot 0 your airship parts, the amount of the accounts that are playing Heart of Thorns is -much- less than 50% of the total of the registered accounts of gw2efficiency.

If you check unbound magic it shows clearly that only 50% of the population has any, and getting unbound magic is stupidly easy compared to let’s say Legendary Insights.

From the above you can conclude VERY easily that half the accounts of gw2efficiency are either bank/alt accounts, free accounts, don’t have hot installed or the owners stopped playing before LS3 even started.

10% of players on average do have LI. 10% of players have LI, while 50% are playing in Heart of Thorns zones.

I think using gw2efficiency we can see an actual problem, that has nothing to do with raids.

In total, using 100k accounts, 50k of those don’t play anymore, at least in content that requires heart of thorns (hot zones or LS3 content) and 10k of those play in Raids. 1/5 of the population, or 20%, is raiding which is what I said

tl:dr – in worst possible case, all these people are not seeing raids as something worth doing/buying HoT for it. So even from this point, raids in their current implementation are fail for absolute majority.

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

In other words using gw2efficiency data, since you cannot 0 your airship parts

I cannot? Why? I certainly did zero it several times already. I had no idea that was forbidden for some reason.

You get them in bundles of 6-28 and you need multiples of 25 to spend on them. It’s math, if you get something in non-multiples of 25, but you spend them in multiples of 25, getting 0 Airship parts is not impossible but it would require you to actively try to do it to achieve it.

Rednik.3809:

tl:dr – in worst possible case, all these people are not seeing raids as something worth doing/buying HoT for it. So even from this point, raids in their current implementation are fail for absolute majority.

You are really being impossible now. First you don’t know how to interpret data, now you are accusing Raids falsely.

For the Airship Parts it shows that people didn’t buy HoT, or bought it but played very little of it. Nothing to do with Raids if HoT itself didn’t grab the attention.

Take a look at the Unbound Magic image. It clearly shows that the Living Story 3 did not make more people play GW2, it did not revitalize GW2 as maybe some expected, although it wasn’t raid release.

Using the data of gw2efficiency 20% of the active population on that website Raided at least some times in the past. That’s the data we get from it and it’s not even accurate since they have 50% and 20% and nothing in-between.

If there is one thing you can blame Anet’s scheduling is how many players stopped playing after Heart of Thorns was released. From an average of 75% playing during Heart of Thorns to an average of 50% playing in LS3. Which means of the 100% accounts of GW2 efficiency, 75% bought Heart of Thorns, but by the time LS3 started 50% of the total is still active (or rather Anet lost 25% of the gw2eff players)

Was that the result of Raiding? Maybe some left due to raids, others left because they didn’t like HoT. But I think the one mistake Anet REALLY did was having 3 Raid releases without anything else in-between them. I don’t mind them releasing content for the 10%/20% that enjoys it, but there is a problem if they don’t release anything for anyone else.

From November 2016 to June 2016 we got the 3 Raid wings. At the same time we got the new Shatterer as new content, the HoT zone revamp, and 2 festivals (SAB and Lunar New Year), which means only Shatterer was new-ish content. For 8 months the majority of the population got nothing, while they only released Raid wings. That WAS A MISTAKE.

I hope they learned their lesson and never leave a Raid release alone without any new LS episodes around it.

maddoctor.2738:

If there is one thing you can blame Anet’s scheduling is how many players stopped playing after Heart of Thorns was released. From an average of 75% playing during Heart of Thorns to an average of 50% playing in LS3. Which means of the 100% accounts of GW2 efficiency, 75% bought Heart of Thorns, but by the time LS3 started 50% of the total is still active (or rather Anet lost 25% of the gw2eff players)

But your first image on airship parts says 90% has at least 5 airship parts, doesn’t that mean at least 90% bought HoT?

Scipio.3204:

But your first image on airship parts says 90% has at least 5 airship parts, doesn’t that mean at least 90% bought HoT?

You are right. So the drop between HoT and LS3 is much bigger. But those with 5 airship parts probably didn’t play much of the game at all.

Talindra.4958:

Oh geez…. Relax guys .. You guys getting too wrap up with this..
Btw, I just done my full clear this week with pugs again just now..with completely different players except my husband that I know and play with next to me.
This week took us a bit longer than last week around 2.5hrs. There’s laughing and ppl joking around in ts. Like usual, i hv my mic muted.
My husband and i raids with minimum 400ping not 50 or 200. :p so ppl actually hv mercy with us in raids

In my oppinion, raids is really not hard. For those who seriously want to get into raids, do not give up too soon. Bcos, you can only defeat the boss by not giving up trying. If you can’t accept this, then you really shouldn’t be near it and you shouldnt be here to take it down with all your might too. Bcos there are many ppl tht hv fun in raids who doesn’t bother coming to forum and post em here. Similar to SAB trib mode. Those who enjoy never creep here to tell of their fun. Only after they suspend the future release of it

To the raid dev team.. Good job and keep the good work up.

Question….can you put raids and SAB trib mode on the same scale? Because raids im not liking but SAB trib mode I LOVED. And was thinking….why? Is it because raids require you to depend on 9 other people and it more or less doesn’t depend on your skill alone, (though…… I will say it does only require ONE person to screw ONE mechanic up and BOOM wipe and you just wasted 9 other peoples time, you can know all the fights and still wipe for 5 hours and not down a boss because of other people making mistakes, trolling or leaving.) and SAB trib mode, the only reason for failing it is…..well you and you alone, you can not blame ANYONE else?

So……can you balance them on the same scale? Or were you bringing it up to show a different comparison? If you were, sorry my bad for missunderstanding it.

And yes I more or less agree with you about raids, once I watched videos on them, and got into the fights and had call outs in TS, boom, worked easy. And I just wanted to flat dps and not do any special jobs, like CC the ghosts in Gor, or be a slubling in Sloth, (I don’t want to do something newer in something i havnt even learned and masted yet!) but behold some guy calls out in TS, “The DD can do it.” and BOOM thrown under the buss……and BOOM boss clear. havnt finished Matt, and havnt done Xera yet, but the only fight I really might have issue with is KC, but thats because other people can’t dodge. (DD 4 life! perma dodges!) The main issue I have with them, is the same issue I have with other group content…….other people. Course thats kinda a semi different issue then raid accessabilty. And glad you are having fun with people you love, and in content you two love, thats great to hear

maddoctor.2738:

Scipio.3204:

But your first image on airship parts says 90% has at least 5 airship parts, doesn’t that mean at least 90% bought HoT?

You are right. So the drop between HoT and LS3 is much bigger. But those with 5 airship parts probably didn’t play much of the game at all.

Or they kept using them as they accrued. I know i do.
It’s the same reason why magnetite shards are a poor estimation of raids’ popularity and why LI’s are better

Crystal Reid.2481:

They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game.

The biggest problem with Raids is that they’re made artificially difficult through weird and cheap mechanics (most notably the enrage timer and not being able to resurrect defeated players), rather than actually programming the boss encounters to be complex and intricate. I’ve got 2 main suggestions for making Raids feel more genuinely challenging rather than artificially difficult:
1. Remove the enrage timer and inability to resurrect defeated players.
2. Add in some degree of randomness in the timing of every Raid boss’ attacks.
3. Rework whatever mechanics need to be reworked as a result of these two changes above.
If you can manage to implement these things into all the Raids, I can pretty much guarantee people will find them a lot more fun, while still staying just as challenging, if not more so.

Bitoku Kishi.8346:

Crystal Reid.2481:

They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game.

The biggest problem with Raids is that they’re made artificially difficult through weird and cheap mechanics (most notably the enrage timer and not being able to resurrect defeated players), rather than actually programming the boss encounters to be complex and intricate. I’ve got 2 main suggestions for making Raids feel more genuinely challenging rather than artificially difficult:
1. Remove the enrage timer and inability to resurrect defeated players.
2. Add in some degree of randomness in the timing of every Raid boss’ attacks.
3. Rework whatever mechanics need to be reworked as a result of these two changes above.
If you can manage to implement these things into all the Raids, I can pretty much guarantee people will find them a lot more fun, while still staying just as challenging, if not more so.

What?
1. Enrage timer is something you will barely ever hit (actually, we never hit enrage even when practicing bosses on release), if you do your group is doing something severely wrong. If you permadie, it’s your fault. Get better. The game isn’t to blame here.
2. Randomness is the worst to have in raids, at least when it comes down to important things and even more so if the different outcomes can vary heavily in how fast the group has to adapt or similar (which is one of the reasons I dislike KC’s bomb-or-phantasm roll). Outside of that it would really depend on what gets randomness added to it and to what degree, but I don’t think it would be a good change.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Bitoku Kishi.8346:

Crystal Reid.2481:

They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game.

The biggest problem with Raids is that they’re made artificially difficult through weird and cheap mechanics (most notably the enrage timer and not being able to resurrect defeated players), rather than actually programming the boss encounters to be complex and intricate. I’ve got 2 main suggestions for making Raids feel more genuinely challenging rather than artificially difficult:
1. Remove the enrage timer and inability to resurrect defeated players.
2. Add in some degree of randomness in the timing of every Raid boss’ attacks.
3. Rework whatever mechanics need to be reworked as a result of these two changes above.
If you can manage to implement these things into all the Raids, I can pretty much guarantee people will find them a lot more fun, while still staying just as challenging, if not more so.

What?
1. Enrage timer is something you will barely ever hit (actually, we never hit enrage even when practicing bosses on release), if you do your group is doing something severely wrong. If you permadie, it’s your fault. Get better. The game isn’t to blame here.
2. Randomness is the worst to have in raids, at least when it comes down to important things and even more so if the different outcomes can vary heavily in how fast the group has to adapt or similar (which is one of the reasons I dislike KC’s bomb-or-phantasm roll). Outside of that it would really depend on what gets randomness added to it and to what degree, but I don’t think it would be a good change.

I am just here to make Bitoku Kishi not feel alone, although I might disagree on resurrect the defeated. I am in the group that does not want to play raids.

I call raids design dps progress bars.

1. boss will always set the encounter. Although break bars matter, there is no way for the player to control the situation at all.

2. Attacking is way too convenient. Everybody just spams their best rotation.

To give you an idea, I hated the new nightmare fractal.

Oh well, I will probably never see the things I wanted in the game. I wish CC was a first class citizen and bosses were more similar to player health.