Guild Wars 2

Astralporing.1957:

i don’t understand why you’re surprised. That’s exactly the approach raiders had up till raids got implemented.

We had raiders before raids got implemented?

He doesn’t. For example, he was active in PvP threads too, if i remember correctly. And he is always first to admit that people eplaying types of content he doesn’t like have equal rights to ask for items to be made available for them as well.

Which isn’t for this thread/topic. It would be nice if people stayed on the topic of threads for once.

Really? You missed all those cases where Me, Ohoni and few other posters fully agreed with people that other content should also get the same treatment?

Then make a thread about that and don’t bloat a thread about raid accessibility with it. Or you are having fun derailing threads like Ohoni does?

Reward accessibility is something that lies at the core of most raid discussions.

This discussion is about raid accessibility not reward accessibility. If you want to discuss rewards accessibility then make a thread about it, and take Ohoni with you there.

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

i don’t understand why you’re surprised. That’s exactly the approach raiders had up till raids got implemented.

We had raiders before raids got implemented?

6sept 2013 https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/So-raids
16jun 2013 https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/We-need-Raid-Groups
30aug 2013 https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Anet-we-need-more-dungeons-raids
20apr 2013 https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Raiding-endgame-is-there-but-never-played

And thats only the first 5 pages in google, so yes we had raiders before it got implemented

So answering your questions isent for this thread/topic and is derailing the thread now?

Why even ask those questions to begin with.

maddoctor.2738:
Then why care only about the Raid rewards?
Astralporing.1957
He doesn’t. For example, he was active in PvP threads too, if i remember correctly. And he is always first to admit that people eplaying types of content he doesn’t like have equal rights to ask for items to be made available for them as well.
maddoctor.2738:
Which isn’t for this thread/topic. It would be nice if people stayed on the topic of threads for once.

Linken.6345:

And thats only the first 5 pages in google, so yes we had raiders before it got implemented

Did you read those links?

Why even ask those questions to begin with.

The question was for someone else to answer specifically and it had a rather obvious answer. You should read a discussion before quoting to get some perspective. Reading a part of it makes you draw false conclusions.

Linken.6345:

Miellyn.6847:

maddoctor.2738:

Miellyn.6847:

You can not add an introduction encounter to every wing.

Not every encounter in the future Raids needs to be Mathias difficulty/complexity.

But we also don’t need in every wing a introduction encounter. Occasionally it’s fine, but not in every wing.

Linken.6345:

And here we have why a easy mode raid is needed.

You think its boring with easy encounter as opener but can still complete it all, the one loving that opening encounter think its boring since they can only do 1/3 of the raid.

So people can’t be bothered to start with the wings that actually have introduction encounters, get better and play the other ones after?
And not every wing having an introduction encouter is why we need an easy mode? That doesn’t even makes sense anymore.
Are introduction encounter good or bad?

Well the ones defending raids say you have these 2 fights to train on… you cant train on them for other bosses so when more raids come out there should be more easy fights for the masses.

You as a raider dont like the easy starter encounters you said so its boring.
So to you that is bad hence it would be better if all were around the same challenge to you.

But the ones who can only do easy one would like them all the be around the same challenge so they can see the whole raid like you get to do.

You get a full 3 coarse meal others get the appetizers then the waiter say sorry but you cant have the other 2 coarses becouse you cant dance around the table on 1 foot with 1 hand behind your back balanceing an egg on your nose.

Do you see the differance?

Edit

its kinda funny you skip over the very first sentence in the post you reply to.

Go back and 2 my sentences again please

I never said we don’t need introduction encounter/easier bosses. But we don’t need them in every wing.
VG is actually fine and fun even after many runs, but the siege event gets pretty boring after 3-4 runs.
You have to be careful how you design an introduction encounter and who many you actually want.

So you will repeat the same thing even when someone gives you new arguments until it is implemented? Just wow.

I address each new argument as it comes, but most of what I hear are the same old “raiders deserve pretty things and you don’t” line of “reasoning.”

Then why care only about the Raid rewards?

I don’t only care about raid rewards. I care about a great many things. I’m only discussing raids here because unlike some people, I’m trying to stay on topic.

You ARE hiding. You are not staying on the topic when you are talking about long term goal accessibility.

Again, I only comment on it when someone else brings it up.

I’m saying that the same principles apply to all other types of content, you want to apply the different “idea” only in Raids.

Nope.

So your problem is with long term goal accessibility and it’s irrelevant to the Raid discussion.

Again, I care about a lot of things, but it’s relevant to the raid discussion in so far as raids have one of the longest term goals in the game locked behind them, and I do not think it is healthy for the game for them to do so. Keep in mind, I was not the one who raised the topic of rewards, my comments on the matter have been in direct response to others who said things like “well if you get easy mode, it can’t have good rewards,” or “you don’t care about easy mode, you only cares about the rewards,” or similar things. If you have a problem with rewards being discussed in this thread, your problem is with them.

They’ve also not said how easy it would be to impliment either. That’s the whole point of the response by Gaile: You do not know, so stop pretending that you do. Even her opinion, which is far more informed than yours, is being dismissed off-hand by you.

Right, but you guys are pretending too, pretending that you know that it would take an unreasonable amount of time to implement. So long as you guys insist that it can’t be done because it would pull too many resources away from other “more important” areas of the game, I’ll continue to insist that this is unlikely.

I never said we don’t need introduction encounter/easier bosses. But we don’t need them in every wing.
VG is actually fine and fun even after many runs, but the siege event gets pretty boring after 3-4 runs.
You have to be careful how you design an introduction encounter and who many you actually want.

Wouldn’t it be nice if instead of having an introductory encounter that hardcore raiders would quickly get bored with, they could just have all hardcore raider-style encounters, but with easier modes for players to use as an introduction? That way, the hardcore raiders would never have to play those modes and could just have fun doing the version they like, while everyone else would have a version they could enjoy too!

Ohoni.6057:

So you will repeat the same thing even when someone gives you new arguments until it is implemented? Just wow.

I address each new argument as it comes, but most of what I hear are the same old “raiders deserve pretty things and you don’t” line of “reasoning.”

Then why care only about the Raid rewards?

I don’t only care about raid rewards. I care about a great many things. I’m only discussing raids here because unlike some people, I’m trying to stay on topic.

You ARE hiding. You are not staying on the topic when you are talking about long term goal accessibility.

Again, I only comment on it when someone else brings it up.

I’m saying that the same principles apply to all other types of content, you want to apply the different “idea” only in Raids.

Nope.

So your problem is with long term goal accessibility and it’s irrelevant to the Raid discussion.

Again, I care about a lot of things, but it’s relevant to the raid discussion in so far as raids have one of the longest term goals in the game locked behind them, and I do not think it is healthy for the game for them to do so. Keep in mind, I was not the one who raised the topic of rewards, my comments on the matter have been in direct response to others who said things like “well if you get easy mode, it can’t have good rewards,” or “you don’t care about easy mode, you only cares about the rewards,” or similar things. If you have a problem with rewards being discussed in this thread, your problem is with them.

They’ve also not said how easy it would be to impliment either. That’s the whole point of the response by Gaile: You do not know, so stop pretending that you do. Even her opinion, which is far more informed than yours, is being dismissed off-hand by you.

Right, but you guys are pretending too, pretending that you know that it would take an unreasonable amount of time to implement. So long as you guys insist that it can’t be done because it would pull too many resources away from other “more important” areas of the game, I’ll continue to insist that this is unlikely.

I never said we don’t need introduction encounter/easier bosses. But we don’t need them in every wing.
VG is actually fine and fun even after many runs, but the siege event gets pretty boring after 3-4 runs.
You have to be careful how you design an introduction encounter and who many you actually want.

Wouldn’t it be nice if instead of having an introductory encounter that hardcore raiders would quickly get bored with, they could just have all hardcore raider-style encounters, but with easier modes for players to use as an introduction? That way, the hardcore raiders would never have to play those modes and could just have fun doing the version they like, while everyone else would have a version they could enjoy too!

I would be okay with that so long as the resources came from the ANET teams matches the intended audience for the easy mode, the more casual audience. If they were to take people from the LS3 team and have them work on easy mode raids that could work. Raid team keeps up status quo of content pacing and easy mode raids are made at the expense of LS3. Only ANET knows what kind of expense that would be.

I would be okay with that so long as the resources came from the ANET teams matches the intended audience for the easy mode, the more casual audience. If they were to take people from the LS3 team and have them work on easy mode raids that could work. Raid team keeps up status quo of content pacing and easy mode raids are made at the expense of LS3. Only ANET knows what kind of expense that would be.

And again, we have no idea how much time this would take, which developers would be needed, or what projects it would keep them from doing. That’s not our job. Our job is to make the case for features we want to see, it’s their job to figure out how to manage that process, and whether it’s worth the associated costs.

Ohoni.6057:

And again, we have no idea how much time this would take, which developers would be needed, or what projects it would keep them from doing. That’s not our job. Our job is to keep conversation going by repeating same request again and again until one of them responds with exactly how much time it would take.

That’s ez to figure out, it would take less than a min or so, mayb just 1 dev needed to deliberate on idea then scrap it and move on, and good news that it would only keep thm from doing 0 projects.

ButterPeanut.9746:

I would be okay with that so long as the resources came from the ANET teams matches the intended audience for the easy mode, the more casual audience. If they were to take people from the LS3 team and have them work on easy mode raids that could work. Raid team keeps up status quo of content pacing and easy mode raids are made at the expense of LS3. Only ANET knows what kind of expense that would be.

Frankly I would be very, very strongly opposed to easy mode raids if it in any way compromised the regular pacing that they’ve achieved with Living Story episodes so far.

Frankly I would be very, very strongly opposed to easy mode raids if it in any way compromised the regular pacing that they’ve achieved with Living Story episodes so far.

I’m sure they can juggle how much time a feature would take and what impact it would have on other elements of the game, and decide accordingly whether the costs would be justified.

Sarrs.4831:

ButterPeanut.9746:

I would be okay with that so long as the resources came from the ANET teams matches the intended audience for the easy mode, the more casual audience. If they were to take people from the LS3 team and have them work on easy mode raids that could work. Raid team keeps up status quo of content pacing and easy mode raids are made at the expense of LS3. Only ANET knows what kind of expense that would be.

Frankly I would be very, very strongly opposed to easy mode raids if it in any way compromised the regular pacing that they’ve achieved with Living Story episodes so far.

This was my point exactly. The LS3 community and the community that would benefit most from"easy mode raids" overlap much more than the current raiding community. So it would be most fair if the compromises came at the expense of the overlap versus at the expense of the raid content pacing.

Ohoni.6057:

I would be okay with that so long as the resources came from the ANET teams matches the intended audience for the easy mode, the more casual audience. If they were to take people from the LS3 team and have them work on easy mode raids that could work. Raid team keeps up status quo of content pacing and easy mode raids are made at the expense of LS3. Only ANET knows what kind of expense that would be.

And again, we have no idea how much time this would take, which developers would be needed, or what projects it would keep them from doing. That’s not our job. Our job is to make the case for features we want to see, it’s their job to figure out how to manage that process, and whether it’s worth the associated costs.

Our job is to play or not play the game. Everything else is equally not our job, it is a privilege. If you can argue for features, I can argue what content I would be willing to slow down pacing in order to implement said feature.

If an easy mode raid had to be put in the game and it were to take a significant time investment (which we cannot confirm or deny unless you work for ANET), then I personally would only be okay with it if it came at the expense the development most similarly affiliated with the intended audience…LS3. I’d rather a 3month delay in LS3 for easy mode raid than a 1week delay of the next raid wing

ButterPeanut.9746:

Ohoni.6057:

I would be okay with that so long as the resources came from the ANET teams matches the intended audience for the easy mode, the more casual audience. If they were to take people from the LS3 team and have them work on easy mode raids that could work. Raid team keeps up status quo of content pacing and easy mode raids are made at the expense of LS3. Only ANET knows what kind of expense that would be.

And again, we have no idea how much time this would take, which developers would be needed, or what projects it would keep them from doing. That’s not our job. Our job is to make the case for features we want to see, it’s their job to figure out how to manage that process, and whether it’s worth the associated costs.

Our job is to play or not play the game. Everything else is equally not our job, it is a privilege. If you can argue for features, I can argue what content I would be willing to slow down pacing in order to implement said feature.

If an easy mode raid had to be put in the game and it were to take a significant time investment (which we cannot confirm or deny unless you work for ANET), then I personally would only be okay with it if it came at the expense the development most similarly affiliated with the intended audience…LS3. I’d rather a 3month delay in LS3 for easy mode raid than a 1week delay of the next raid wing

From a community standpoint, that hypothetical 3 month delay for living story would have a significantly greater negative impact on the game and players than the hypothetical 1 week delay in releasing a new wing.

And here is the real question. Accessibility is an issue they have already acknowledged they care about. They are already talking about integrating easier bosses in with the harder ones to ease new raiders into the content/provide greater accessibility. The comparison you should be thinking about (hypothetical timelines here – just as in your example) is would you want 4 hardcore raid bosses every 4 months with “story motes” for tiered difficulty built in, or would you rather have 2 hardcore bosses and 2 watered-down bosses every 3 months (again, numbers are purely hypothetical)?

That’s true and you are right the numbers are superficial. My main goal was to have folks consider what they would sacrifice for a feature.

IMO there is no reason to sacrifice raiding timelines and release schedules for an “easy mode” because they don’t serve the same audience. Every audience is slightly different, but I would argue the most similar would be the more casual audience. Would that same audience be okay with sacrificing one piece of content that is intended for them (I.e. LS3) for another piece of content they want (I.e. easy mode raids). That is the most fair IMO. Otherwise you are just asking to sacrifice content other people enjoy for your own benefit. If we go down that route I’d hope for no LS and all raids :P. But being fair, pull from the pool of effort that matches most similarly with what you are adding.

Hey they may be able to do both without sacrificing timelines and effort but I always assume the worst and hope for the best.

Ohoni.6057:

I address each new argument as it comes, but most of what I hear are the same old “raiders deserve pretty things and you don’t” line of “reasoning.”

No u just respond to arguments u can’t lose to.. what abt one I made. Like why ppl who do daily t4s never ever go back to do t1s unless they’re rly bored? Why going back in tiers once u acclimated to t4s makes u feel like it way too ez and not fun, and then u have to get used to t4 all over again whn u go back? That not do anything to improve ur skill more, in fact it deteriorate it. Also y don’t u want ez mode for arah too? That hard stuff also and ppl still ragequit for no reason

Then why care only about the Raid rewards?

I don’t only care about raid rewards. I care about a great many things. I’m only discussing raids here because unlike some people, I’m trying to stay on topic.

it’s relevant to the raid discussion in so far as raids have one of the longest term goals in the game locked behind them, and I do not think it is healthy for the game for them to do so. Keep in mind, I was not the one who raised the topic of rewards, my comments on the matter have been in direct response to others who said things like “well if you get easy mode, it can’t have good rewards,” or “you don’t care about easy mode, you only cares about the rewards,” or similar things.

If you have a problem with rewards being discussed in this thread, your problem is with them.

Nice to see how u dodge and evade arguments.. fact is u do bring up raid rewards a lot. Then u say something like ‘dont talk abt raid rewards pls, I’m trying to keep this on topic’. So let’s talk abt it then, since ur talking abt others talking abt it..

Ppl making valid arguments y rewards can’t be same for both ‘hypothetical’ modes. U can’t expect to get ascended that easily, or LI that easily either. U know what it stand for rite? Legendary insight and thers nothing legendary abt beating raid boss on faceroll mode. Pls pls agree with me on this

There is alrdy very less incentive or drive to do raids, I mean farming tokens but what else? That legendary insight is gated behind epic content suits me fine. Who cares abt legendary armor anyway? You said it urself I believe.. u can make like 10 ascended armor sets instead of wasting time on legendary armor. I don’t even care for it, and I’m raiding. Why should u, unless u just want the shiny cos it’s shiny? I want shinies too u know, but they cost too much

So y ppl against easy mode, top three reason: it mite take too long, it might not pay off or be worth it (would it be sustainable mode?), and lastly u arguing abt raid rewards being same.

That last is big no no. Ok, compromise: 1 legendary insight to equal 10 beginner’s insight.. double click to combine or smthin. Do u agree? Shake hands if so

ButterPeanut.9746:

Ohoni.6057:

I would be okay with that so long as the resources came from the ANET teams matches the intended audience for the easy mode, the more casual audience. If they were to take people from the LS3 team and have them work on easy mode raids that could work. Raid team keeps up status quo of content pacing and easy mode raids are made at the expense of LS3. Only ANET knows what kind of expense that would be.

And again, we have no idea how much time this would take, which developers would be needed, or what projects it would keep them from doing. That’s not our job. Our job is to make the case for features we want to see, it’s their job to figure out how to manage that process, and whether it’s worth the associated costs.

Our job is to play or not play the game. Everything else is equally not our job, it is a privilege. If you can argue for features, I can argue what content I would be willing to slow down pacing in order to implement said feature.

If an easy mode raid had to be put in the game and it were to take a significant time investment (which we cannot confirm or deny unless you work for ANET), then I personally would only be okay with it if it came at the expense the development most similarly affiliated with the intended audience…LS3. I’d rather a 3month delay in LS3 for easy mode raid than a 1week delay of the next raid wing

Considering ls season 3 was pushed and came out what was it 9 months after hot released due to raid releases, yea we can push the next raid release afew months.

nagr.1593:

Ohoni.6057:

I address each new argument as it comes, but most of what I hear are the same old “raiders deserve pretty things and you don’t” line of “reasoning.”

No u just respond to arguments u can’t lose to.. what abt one I made. Like why ppl who do daily t4s never ever go back to do t1s unless they’re rly bored? Why going back in tiers once u acclimated to t4s makes u feel like it way too ez and not fun, and then u have to get used to t4 all over again whn u go back? That not do anything to improve ur skill more, in fact it deteriorate it. Also y don’t u want ez mode for arah too? That hard stuff also and ppl still ragequit for no reason

Then why care only about the Raid rewards?

I don’t only care about raid rewards. I care about a great many things. I’m only discussing raids here because unlike some people, I’m trying to stay on topic.

it’s relevant to the raid discussion in so far as raids have one of the longest term goals in the game locked behind them, and I do not think it is healthy for the game for them to do so. Keep in mind, I was not the one who raised the topic of rewards, my comments on the matter have been in direct response to others who said things like “well if you get easy mode, it can’t have good rewards,” or “you don’t care about easy mode, you only cares about the rewards,” or similar things.

If you have a problem with rewards being discussed in this thread, your problem is with them.

Nice to see how u dodge and evade arguments.. fact is u do bring up raid rewards a lot. Then u say something like ‘dont talk abt raid rewards pls, I’m trying to keep this on topic’. So let’s talk abt it then, since ur talking abt others talking abt it..

Ppl making valid arguments y rewards can’t be same for both ‘hypothetical’ modes. U can’t expect to get ascended that easily, or LI that easily either. U know what it stand for rite? Legendary insight and thers nothing legendary abt beating raid boss on faceroll mode. Pls pls agree with me on this

There is alrdy very less incentive or drive to do raids, I mean farming tokens but what else? That legendary insight is gated behind epic content suits me fine. Who cares abt legendary armor anyway? You said it urself I believe.. u can make like 10 ascended armor sets instead of wasting time on legendary armor. I don’t even care for it, and I’m raiding. Why should u, unless u just want the shiny cos it’s shiny? I want shinies too u know, but they cost too much

So y ppl against easy mode, top three reason: it mite take too long, it might not pay off or be worth it (would it be sustainable mode?), and lastly u arguing abt raid rewards being same.

That last is big no no. Ok, compromise: 1 legendary insight to equal 10 beginner’s insight.. double click to combine or smthin. Do u agree? Shake hands if so

Why going back in tiers once u acclimated to t4s

People used to go back and do all of them but anet shot down by giving people all the previous chest from just doing t4..
Good for player with little time but bad since the t4 players dont go down and help the lower tiers anymore.

That last is big no no. Ok, compromise: 1 legendary insight to equal 10 beginner’s insight.. double click to combine or smthin. Do u agree? Shake hands if so

Yes I agree to this if its daily reset for beginner ones so they can get some progress if they work their kitten of ( 6 a week), not that everyone would have time for that ofcourse probabely just weekends warriors mostly (1-2 a week)

Edit
Bolden your part since i suck at quoting

ButterPeanut.9746:

This was my point exactly. The LS3 community and the community that would benefit most from"easy mode raids" overlap much more than the current raiding community. So it would be most fair if the compromises came at the expense of the overlap versus at the expense of the raid content pacing.

I don’t know whether we’re on the same page here but the logic is bad on a basic level because it assumes people who are currently non-raiders would all become raiders with the diversion of resources.

In reality, the vast majority of people who participate in LS content have no intention of touching raids with a 10-foot pole and an ‘easy mode raid’ would likely do absolutely nothing for them. It’s a waste of time and effort. Reducing LS content on the other hand would have a very real reduction in the game’s ability to retain players.

Like I said tho dunno if we’re on the same page, you probably already know this.

Linken.6345:

ButterPeanut.9746:

Ohoni.6057:

I would be okay with that so long as the resources came from the ANET teams matches the intended audience for the easy mode, the more casual audience. If they were to take people from the LS3 team and have them work on easy mode raids that could work. Raid team keeps up status quo of content pacing and easy mode raids are made at the expense of LS3. Only ANET knows what kind of expense that would be.

And again, we have no idea how much time this would take, which developers would be needed, or what projects it would keep them from doing. That’s not our job. Our job is to make the case for features we want to see, it’s their job to figure out how to manage that process, and whether it’s worth the associated costs.

Our job is to play or not play the game. Everything else is equally not our job, it is a privilege. If you can argue for features, I can argue what content I would be willing to slow down pacing in order to implement said feature.

If an easy mode raid had to be put in the game and it were to take a significant time investment (which we cannot confirm or deny unless you work for ANET), then I personally would only be okay with it if it came at the expense the development most similarly affiliated with the intended audience…LS3. I’d rather a 3month delay in LS3 for easy mode raid than a 1week delay of the next raid wing

Considering ls season 3 was pushed and came out what was it 9 months after hot released due to raid releases, yea we can push the next raid release afew months.

Its been 5m since the last raid release and they’ve stated it takes 6m for a new LS3 map. The additional months for the Bloodstone fen release were due to figuring out the process and fixing open world HoT problems.

Sarrs.4831:

ButterPeanut.9746:

This was my point exactly. The LS3 community and the community that would benefit most from"easy mode raids" overlap much more than the current raiding community. So it would be most fair if the compromises came at the expense of the overlap versus at the expense of the raid content pacing.

I don’t know whether we’re on the same page here but the logic is bad on a basic level because it assumes people who are currently non-raiders would all become raiders with the diversion of resources.

In reality, the vast majority of people who participate in LS content have no intention of touching raids with a 10-foot pole and an ‘easy mode raid’ would likely do absolutely nothing for them. It’s a waste of time and effort. Reducing LS content on the other hand would have a very real reduction in the game’s ability to retain players.

Like I said tho dunno if we’re on the same page, you probably already know this.

My point exactly…taking resources from the team that makes the most sense still doesn’t make any sense…

Our job is to play or not play the game. Everything else is equally not our job, it is a privilege.

If there are areas of the game that we feel could be improved for our benefit, and the benefit of others, then it’s important to let them know that. If you don’t tell them what you want, then they can’t know, and there’s no advantage to them leaving money on the table. What they do with that information is up to them.

I’d rather a 3month delay in LS3 for easy mode raid than a 1week delay of the next raid wing

Fair enough, and it would be up to them to decide which features are more important to more players. I think that they would automatically assume that raiders would prefer raids to come out as quickly as possible, and that open world players would prefer that open world content come out as quickly as possible, so I don’t think that telling them this would really add new information to the pool, however.

Would that same audience be okay with sacrificing one piece of content that is intended for them (I.e. LS3) for another piece of content they want (I.e. easy mode raids). That is the most fair IMO. Otherwise you are just asking to sacrifice content other people enjoy for your own benefit.

But that sort of assumes that both groups would be considered equal. But consider it like this instead, what if 80% of the population were serious raiders, and only 20% participated in new living world maps. Wouldn’t you agree that in such a situation, it would be in the game’s overall best interests to get the raids out quickly to satisfy 80 people out of one hundred, rather than getting the living world content out to satisfy only twenty out of that hundred? We don’t know the relative populations, but ANet does, and can judge accordingly which change would cause the greatest increase in the overall player satisfaction.

Like why ppl who do daily t4s never ever go back to do t1s unless they’re rly bored? Why going back in tiers once u acclimated to t4s makes u feel like it way too ez and not fun, and then u have to get used to t4 all over again whn u go back?

I don’t see what that would have to do with anything. This is not a feature targeted towards people who already enjoy the current raids. They already have the version they want, and if they see no reason to ever run the easy mode, then that’s totally fine. They don’t need it. It’s there for people who don’t want to run the harder version, or that might want to eventually, but don’t feel ready for it yet and have no interest in fruitless “training runs.”

My direct answer is that if T4 players don’t want to go back and play T1 content, then that’s great, they should never have to, but at least the T1 content is there for players who aren’t T4, and perhaps never will be.

Also y don’t u want ez mode for arah too? That hard stuff also and ppl still ragequit for no reason

I never had difficulty with Arah, so that’s not an issue I personally care about, but if someone else does care about that, I’m not about to tell them that their concerns don’t matter. Again, there’s no reason why I should have to argue on every possible issue just because I choose to argue on some. You have to pick your battles.

Nice to see how u dodge and evade arguments.. fact is u do bring up raid rewards a lot.

Ok, find an example. Find one quote from me (and please cite page number) in which I address the rewards in a post that is not directly in response to someone else addressing rewards.

Then u say something like ‘dont talk abt raid rewards pls, I’m trying to keep this on topic’.

I also don’t do that, what I actually said was that in response to the “ohoni only cares about the rewards” stuff, that I try to avoid going off topic. If you want to go off topic, it’s not my place to bother you about it.

Ppl making valid arguments y rewards can’t be same for both ‘hypothetical’ modes. U can’t expect to get ascended that easily, or LI that easily either. U know what it stand for rite? Legendary insight and thers nothing legendary abt beating raid boss on faceroll mode. Pls pls agree with me on this

You can get Legendary Weapons off the trading post. You never even have to leave LA. Most established players could probably pick up 3-4 Legendaries by tomorrow if they felt like blowing their savings. There’s nothing particularly “Legendary” about legendary items in this game, just as most “Exotic” weapons share identical models and are most often used for Forge-mats, more “Rare” weapons are a dime a dozen, and most “masterpiece” weapons couldn’t cut their way through a wet paper bag. Don’t get hung up on the name. And you can get Ascended weapons by farming PvP reward tracks, which doesn’t even require that you be any good at PvP whatsoever. I’ve picked up several Ascended crates that way. You just overvalue what certain things “should” be worth.

There is alrdy very less incentive or drive to do raids, I mean farming tokens but what else?

The quantity of reward you get should be fair. If you spend an hour raiding, you should feel that what you get is worth as much or more than what you could get spending an hour playing elsewhere in the game. If they haven’t managed that, then that’s what they need to fix. But there’s no reason for those rewards to be unique to raiding.

If you do not feel that a fair reward is incentive enough to raid, then you shouldn’t be raiding, and that’s a perfectly acceptable choice. The only people who should be raiding are those players who find the experience of raiding to be the most fun thing they could be doing at that time. The reward should not be the reason for choosing to raid if you otherwise wouldn’t do it, the reward should only be fair compensation for your time spent raiding, so that even though you love raiding, you wouldn’t feel that your time was “wasted” when you could have been doing something else more rewarding. That is the balance point, that people will choose to do the things they would be doing if there were no reward at all.

Who cares abt legendary armor anyway? You said it urself I believe.. u can make like 10 ascended armor sets instead of wasting time on legendary armor. I don’t even care for it, and I’m raiding. Why should u, unless u just want the shiny cos it’s shiny? I want shinies too u know, but they cost too much

I care about the armor, not because it’s Legendary, but because I think it looks interesting. Parts of it, at least, and the other weights likely will too. As I’ve said, I personally would be totally fine if I could just earn the skin elsewhere, the actual purple gear I couldn’t care less about. I keep my Ascension stored in my shared inventory just in case someone needs a better backpack (I’ve skinned it with Mad Memories in case someone needs a torch), but I’ve applied the skins to several of my characters’ wings. That’s the important part.

And if you don’t care, that’s fine too, nobody says you have to care, but if you don’t care about getting it, then why do you seem to care that I don’t get it? That doesn’t seem right.

That last is big no no. Ok, compromise: 1 legendary insight to equal 10 beginner’s insight.. double click to combine or smthin. Do u agree? Shake hands if so

It might be. It depends on the total system. If the easy mode is on weekly lockout, so that the max you could get is 1/9th of an insight per week, then it would take over three years to earn enough for one set of armor (out of three, and by then there would likely be other things to work towards). And that’s after they implement it, meaning it would be at least four years after anyone else gets it. That seems a bit silly.

Now, if the easy mode raids each don’t take that long to clear, and you could clear each of them once per day or something, for a total of 6-ish per week, and that’s IF you run all nine bosses seven days a week, then you could get 150 LI in only six months, which is about two months longer than it would take on hard mode, and they would need a lot less completions to do it (and a roughly 1-year head start).

That could perhaps be fair. Or something in the middle of those two options, like maybe you only need 5 mini-LI to make one regular LI, but they are slightly slower to farm. The important thing is to balance out the time and effort well.

I’ve posted this in the past but I don’t think it saw a response. Really the only thing were discussing here is math. The equation is AxB=C where: A equals the amount of time spent doing a task, B equals the difficulty of that task, and C equals the rewards, in this case legendary armor.

At some point, B =0. Just like in math, if B=0 then there is no amount of time that will equal a non zero reward. The problem is that everyone’s opinion of where that point is different, and that’s fine because in the grand scheme only ANETs opinion matters.

For example, some people would argue that easy mode raids essentially means B=0. This would mean that no amount of time ever spent doing them would result in Legendary armor. A larger population of people would probably argue that Legendary armor shouldn’t be given as a login reward, even if you login every day until the the sun blows up the earth.

I’m personally tired of hearing arguments that are essentially differences in opinions of where B=0 is set at. However, considering:
-ANETs desire to keep raids in all possible forms at the current level of difficulty as a whole, (or higher)
-ANETs comments in video about the nightmare fractal that they want to encourage players to play more challenging content to improve their skill sets.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume they find B=0 at a relatively high level of skill/content difficulty (I.e. current raid difficulty)

I generally agree with what you say BP, but one thing to keep in mind is that the opinion that matters isn’t technically ANet’s, it’s the players’. I mean, they obviously have the option of going against the wishes of the players, but that’s counterproductive to their goal of maximizing profits. What they would instead want to do is figure out, to the best of their ability, what the players believe B equals, and then build around that. Based on other content in the game, I think it’s fair to say that B can represent effort considerably below the current level of the raids.

I appreciate the honest response and you are right. In the very large scale the player base opinion matters because at as point they wouldn’t have jobs. But just like voting, the opinion of the whole matters much more than the opinion of the few.

I am one of those people who would do raids even if there were no rewards. For me personally, I enjoy the hours spent failing and learning and researching. To me, that is the real reward, but I understand how not everyone has that same opinion.

However, I also believe that the benefits of exclusive rewards outweigh the downsides. Again I recognize not every shares that opinion. I personally think a future state where every part of the game has many pieces of exclusive rewards is a healthier game state than if no content has exclusive rewards. We may not be there yet, but this could be setting a precedent that the “if you are a human and can login, you can get every reward” mentality is no longer the direction they see fit.

I would personally agree. I spent 3/4 of my life as an athlete competing an training with world record holders. To me, competition and challenges e a bare minimum requirement for something Legendary…inside and outside a game.

That being said I respect that you may not agree and I’m frankly tired of others belittling your opinion in response to their own.

I am one of those people who would do raids even if there were no rewards. For me personally, I enjoy the hours spent failing and learning and researching. To me, that is the real reward, but I understand how not everyone has that same opinion.

See, to me, that is the ONLY opinion that should matter with raiding. I mean, you shouldn’t have to do it completely for free, there should be a level of reward that makes doing it feel justified, but it should never be so much that people would do it when they’d rather be somewhere else. If they’d rather be somewhere else, then that’s where they should be, not raiding for the loot.

And if people say “I love raiding, but I’ll only do it if it offers awesome loot that other people can’t have,” well they don’t love raiding, at least not enough, they just love feeling superior to other players, and I don’t see any reason why those players should be enabled. That just sets a bad example for everyone and creates toxic environments.

As I’ve said, I don’t believe in exclusive rewards, but I do believe in “themed rewards,” like dungeon armor, where the most direct path to earning it is by doing a specific type of content, but where other paths are available if that primary path is completely abhorrent to you. I see it a bit like Disney World merch, where the ideal place to get an Animal Kingdom t-shirt is in Animal Kingdom, but if you can’t get over there, you can still find it in the bigger shops in other parks, and if even that’s off the table, you can usually get them online too, sometimes through a second hand market with a mark-up.

I appreciate your views on the matter though, and respect your right to disagree.

I guess I try and view it from ANETs perspective. I don’t recall 100% the kind of content you enjoy but for arguments sake let’s pick open world.

In my opinion it is advantageous for ANET to give players incentives get out of their comfort zone and try other parts of the game. One of those incentives may be exclusive rewards.

The reason I think they may view it as advantageous is that they simply cannot push out enough content in 1 specific area of the game to keep players occupied long enough to play in silos. So a player who only plays open world may never have enough content in open world alone to keep them playing.

But if that player tries fractals, dungeons, raids, wvw, PvP, etc. Then they may find something that they like in addition to open world. Even if they hated everything and just went back into open world, that trial time period alone is likely longer than they would have stayed if there wasn’t enough content in that one area.

This goes for every area of the game. They simply aren’t big enough to keep pushing content in each area to keep players isolated to only the things they currently enjoy. And more over, they want players to try new things because there will likely be just as many people who end up liking the other area if the game as the ones who don’t.

The grand plan in this whole thing is that they use rewards as the incentive. Now there may be better ways to do that. I personally would enjoy a really cool hard to get raid title as much as I would Legendary armor, but others may want a more flashy rewards.

Incentives to increase competition is a good thing in my opinion. I would LOVE it if there was something as simple as a temporary title for those people who win the most recent gw2 PvP tourney, or clear a raid wing first, or who win the weekly wvw matchup in T1. That would encourage more players to strive to dethrone the current winners. Based on my life experiences, I believe more competition is always better, but I can understand some may disagree. With competition needs to come a more mature audience who embraces competition and doesn’t belittle those who “lose” at that given time

The biggest issue I have with raiding is that the experience of raiders is at the mercy of PvE balance changes. Here are some of the most noteworthy nerfs that have affected raid balance:

• Fix/Nerf to Slick Shoes on Engineer.
• Fix/Nerf to Condition-damage Berserker’s Scorched Earth skill.
• Nerf to Alacrity on Chronomancers.
• Nerf to Elementalist damage output in general.
• Nerf to Jagged Horror uptime on Necromancers.
• Nerf to Revenant’s Naturalistic Resonance.
• Nerf to Signet of Inspiration on Mesmers.
• Adjustment of duration-stacking Boon uptime.

Despite these changes, the raids themselves have not been changed. There are teams that have a harder time adjusting to changes like this since it’s quite annoying stat-swapping gear. We cannot extract Runes or Sigils from gear without paying ridiculous prices from the Gem Store. (Have fun getting a second set of Leadership runes for your Legendary Armor since you cannot extract it from your Ascended!)

I’m not saying that adjustments should not be made to professions, but when a class is nerfed it forces us to deal with the very annoying systems of Upgrade Extraction and Attribute Swapping. We need to use the Mystic Forge 7-10 times when this happens. It also just feels bad when the raids take longer than they used to and even worse if a guild now cannot kill a boss because of these changes. My suggestions for making balance patches sting less are this:

• Provide a better way to extract runes and sigils from our Ascended gear outside of (1) overwriting them, (2) salaving or (3) buying the ridiculously overpriced Upgrade Extractors.
• Streamline the attribute-swapping process. Preserve the upgrades in the gear so we don’t accidentally destroy expensive Infusions or upgrades.

Ohoni.6057:

I generally agree with what you say BP, but one thing to keep in mind is that the opinion that matters isn’t technically ANet’s, it’s the players’. I mean, they obviously have the option of going against the wishes of the players, but that’s counterproductive to their goal of maximizing profits. What they would instead want to do is figure out, to the best of their ability, what the players believe B equals, and then build around that. Based on other content in the game, I think it’s fair to say that B can represent effort considerably below the current level of the raids.

But not all players have the same opinion on what B should equal. I think B=0 for easy mode raids as easy mode raids should serve as training wheels for raids as they are now. Things you remove once you’ve learned and don’t put back on. Not something you stick with for forever.

They could say that easy mode raids give no legendary reward progress and there would be a portion happy with that decision and a portion unhappy with that decision. And they could say that it gives X% progress and a portion would be happy and a portion would be unhappy. Stop making comments that put all players into your category, because I can point to a number of posts in a number of threads by a number of players who do not fit your category. I’m one of them and this is one of those posts.

ANet would have to decide whether or not the number who would leave the game due to that decision would outweigh the number of players it would get to buy the game or do raids or that it would not. Or whether not having an easy mode hurts or helps the game as a whole more. And ANet has the tools to determine that. We players do not. Our speculation is based on personal experience which tends to be biased towards our own opinion. ANet’s speculation has more chance of success since they have data from past decisions as well as information from their marketing team.

In my opinion it is advantageous for ANET to give players incentives get out of their comfort zone and try other parts of the game. One of those incentives may be exclusive rewards.

Yeah, and I understand the idea of getting people to go outside their comfort zones, but they also need to respect when players go outside their comfort zones, but then go “you know, this isn’t for me, I’d like off now,” and allow them to do so without abandoning any long term goals. They want to keep players playing some part of the game, but they don’t have any reason for players to continue playing a portion they aren’t enjoying.

So with that in mind, I think it’s perfectly reasonable to have rewards that are 100% exclusive to a given mode, so long as they are buried shallowly, something that any reasonable player can earn within an hour or two or earnest attempting of the content. Nothing that requires significant skill at it, nothing that requires a massive investment of time.

The example I give to this is that there is the whole The Ascension achievement, the entire chain of which takes dozens of hours of PvP, and if you want it in any reasonable amount of time, you need relatively decent skills (or someone to carry you). But one of the steps is that you need to get the Recruit Wings, and to get them, you only need to complete Tier 1, which any player can do (since there’s no backsliding), and it should only take a couple hours or less.

My proposal would be that it would be reasonable to say that the ONLY place to get the Recruit’s Wings, and thus a necessary component to the Ascension, should be through that path, forcing all players who wanted the goal to play at least that much. The rest of the recipe, however, the other three base wings, the various other tokens and trinkets, there should be ways to earn these from WvW, or PvE methods. The alternatives should be balanced to take more time and equivalent player skill, if you enjoy PvP then the PvP route should be the clear and easy method of earning the wings, but if you really don’t enjoy PvP, then getting into Emerald once is all you’d ever need to do of it, and then you’d be allowed to complete the set elsewhere.

That’s how I believe all loot should function, “try this thing, but never feel compelled to stick around if the gameplay doesn’t interest you.” As pertains directly to raids, I think there could be a reward that absolutely requires you to at least attempt the VG for a good hour or two, but once that’s done, success or failure, you should be able to leave raids forever if that’s your choice, without abandoning any particular reward goals.

And as for players getting bored of the existing content, I still do open world PvP 99% of the time I spend in game, never WvW, only PvP when I need to knock out a daily, and I’ve been playing for three years now. It’s still fun, and if I got tired of it, I could do other things. The nice thing about flexible rewards is that you don’t have to stick around anywhere. Forcing players to engage in content that they don’t enjoy isn’t going to keep them around longer, it’s just going to burn them out faster, but giving them plenty of opportunities to go after their goals allows them to move from content to content however they like.

Based on my life experiences, I believe more competition is always better, but I can understand some may disagree. With competition needs to come a more mature audience who embraces competition and doesn’t belittle those who “lose” at that given time

I’m just not a competitive person. I am a cooperative person. I hate head-to-head, even in things that I’m good at, I prefer to support a team or go it alone. I really really wish that Overwatch had a campaign mode, for example. I think that there is certainly a place for competitive people, but I don’t see why that should need to come with special rewards. I think that people who beat an easy boss in a particularly creative or over-the-top way can be more impressive than people beating a much harder boss as intended, even if the former offers no special reward for that achievement.

The biggest issue I have with raiding is that the experience of raiders is at the mercy of PvE balance changes. Here are some of the most noteworthy nerfs that have affected raid balance:

I’m fairly certain that many, if not most of these changes were made because of raids, and it’s the non-raiding PvE public that are at their mercy, not the raiders. I think that if they had raid-split nerfs and buffs, only the raids would be experiencing some of these.

I do agree that they could do a better job of allowing players to re-build after balance patches though.

But not all players have the same opinion on what B should equal. I think B=0 for easy mode raids as easy mode raids should serve as training wheels for raids as they are now.

Right, but again, just because you believe that, doesn’t mean that’s the stance they should go with. If the overall opinion of the players in general is that, say, dungeon difficulty is a reasonable level for B>0, then that’s the will that should win out, even if some disagree.

They could say that easy mode raids give no legendary reward progress and there would be a portion happy with that decision and a portion unhappy with that decision. And they could say that it gives X% progress and a portion would be happy and a portion would be unhappy. Stop making comments that put all players into your category, because I can point to a number of posts in a number of threads by a number of players who do not fit your category. I’m one of them and this is one of those posts.

I’m certainly not arguing that all players fit into my category, and I can’t even say with any certainty that most players fit into my category, although I personally believe this to be the case. I’m just pointing out that whichever category IS the majority position, that’s the one that should win out, and ANet has better methods available to them than we do to determine what the true value is, to which I believe you agree.

Linken.6345:

Considering ls season 3 was pushed and came out what was it 9 months after hot released due to raid releases, yea we can push the next raid release afew months.

No we can’t. We won’t see a new wing before february, more relealistic at march or april as they said it is half finished. In march we have the same time between Stronghold of the Faithful and the new raid as between HoT and LS3. Also the time between raid wings was longer than between the LS3 episodes.
Raids are already back to the slowest content.
And the LS wasn’t delayed because of raids, the complains about HoT open world were the reason.

• Fix/Nerf to Slick Shoes on Engineer.
• Fix/Nerf to Condition-damage Berserker’s Scorched Earth skill.
• Nerf to Elementalist damage output in general.

These 3 nerfs were because of raids, not just some side product.

Balance splits between raids and other forms of PvE are imo not a drastic issue. There are some weird quirks of the current balance of the game, like necros being super viable in fractals while suboptimal in raids, but these are relatively minor cases. There are very few places where raid rebalancing is going to make non-raid content impossible; the closest thing to noteworthy is the Pack rune nerf.

The balance splits created by WvW are frankly more impactful, particularly referencing the SoI nerf, but I am disinclined to say that is a major issue either as Quickness proliferation is a major issue which crowds out some specs.

Miellyn.6847:

These 3 nerfs were because of raids, not just some side product.

I don’t even disagree with those changes. What’s your point?

My point was simply pointing out that, “the experience of raiders is at the mercy of PvE balance changes.” Raids don’t have a self-nerfing mechanism like other MMOs do with gear progression, so they don’t really get easier unless power creep enters the game somehow. Players have no control over this, and when their experience suddenly sours due to things outside of their control, it’s not a good thing.

I can both agree with the nerf/fix to Slick Shoes and also understand why the change makes Engineers sad. It also would make guilds that relied on this strategy unhappy. You can say, “them’s the breaks!” but I also see it as unhealthy for raiding, especially when the solution is makes guilds slip back into progression after having content on farm, forcing players into playing other professions they’d prefer not to, or facing the horrendously clunky systems we have to change our gear.

Nokaru.7831:

I can both agree with the nerf/fix to Slick Shoes and also understand why the change makes Engineers sad. It also would make guilds that relied on this strategy unhappy. You can say, “them’s the breaks!” but I also see it as unhealthy for raiding, especially when the solution is makes guilds slip back into progression after having content on farm, forcing players into playing other professions they’d prefer not to, or facing the horrendously clunky systems we have to change our gear.

Those nerfs show a much bigger balance problem though, how much certain professions rely on a single skill/trait to be useful. If only those skills/traits were the only thing keeping those professions in the meta, then there is a deep problem in the balance.

maddoctor.2738:

Those nerfs show a much bigger balance problem though, how much certain professions rely on a single skill/trait to be useful. If only those skills/traits were the only thing keeping those professions in the meta, then there is a deep problem in the balance.

I never said I disagreed with the balance changes; my opinion on them is irrelevant. I’m also pretty aware as to why balance changes happen. (At least I know as much as most players do) I was pointing out the consequences to them since they can affect the experience of players that raid pretty heavily and some suggestions into softening the blow of some of these negative experiences; that’s it. I’m not saying, “Don’t nerf stuff!” or “The balance devs are dumb for changing my class!” or “Revert Slick Shoes and Signet of Inspiration!”

Nokaru.7831:

Miellyn.6847:

These 3 nerfs were because of raids, not just some side product.

I don’t even disagree with those changes. What’s your point?

My point was simply pointing out that, “the experience of raiders is at the mercy of PvE balance changes.” Raids don’t have a self-nerfing mechanism like other MMOs do with gear progression, so they don’t really get easier unless power creep enters the game somehow. Players have no control over this, and when their experience suddenly sours due to things outside of their control, it’s not a good thing.

I can both agree with the nerf/fix to Slick Shoes and also understand why the change makes Engineers sad. It also would make guilds that relied on this strategy unhappy. You can say, “them’s the breaks!” but I also see it as unhealthy for raiding, especially when the solution is makes guilds slip back into progression after having content on farm, forcing players into playing other professions they’d prefer not to, or facing the horrendously clunky systems we have to change our gear.

My point is, that this sentence is just non-sense. You can also write “the experience of PvP players is at the mercy of PvP balance changes”. Those changes are meant to mix things up.

Condi Berserker is back in the meta. The only thing that actually changed the experience was the SoI change and the necro change. The rest did nothing. Engineers were still used after the nerf and condi warriors also. Engineer fell of the meta during the rise of the necromancer.

I never said I disagreed with the balance changes; my opinion on them is irrelevant. I’m also pretty aware as to why balance changes happen. (At least I know as much as most players do) I was pointing out the consequences to them since they can affect the experience of players that raid pretty heavily and some suggestions into softening the blow of some of these negative experiences; that’s it. I’m not saying, “Don’t nerf stuff!” or “The balance devs are dumb for changing my class!” or “Revert Slick Shoes and Signet of Inspiration!”

I think I understand your point. The changes to Slick Shoes were not “PvE nerfs” they were “stop using them to break Gorseval” nerfs, they were made for raids, and I think you understand that. But I think the point you’re making is that if a player raids frequently, and has invested heavily into building an Engineer for the purpose of using that move, and learned how to play that way, then that nerf, however justified from an overall balance perspective, puts an immediate stop to his fun until he can manage to figure out an alternative build that works for his talents and resources.

And that’s a perfectly fair and important point.

They should have better tools in place to allow players to change course, taking a fully geared and ready Slickshoes Engi and turning those resources into something that fits the new meta. You shouldn’t have to lay out any significant amount of cash to recover from a balance change, they were the ones that changed things, the cost should be on them to allow you to adapt.

And they should have more flexible build options, so that a Slickshoes Engi would have minimal tweaks to approach the new meta, rather than becoming completely worthless and requiring you to start over with a different class and role, without falling too far short of the meta. Sure, people will say “you don’t have to play meta,” but if you’re not playing something that’s at least close to the best meta option then you’re being a drag on the team, and no responsible player wants that. The solution has to involve more options that are within spitting distance of optimal.

And it might be helpful to announce changes well in advance, so that over a week or two players can pretend those tactics no longer work before they actually don’t work, and devise strategies around them, so that when the changes go live, they’ll be ready with the right build and can hop back in immediately.

Sykper.6583:

Aldath.1275:

After looking at the developer response on this forum I can only say: Anet really seems to hire immature people.

The response was pretty much “we can, but we don’t want to”.

If that’s what you actually gleamed from Crystal, I don’t know what to say. That’s so distant from what she actually said and meant that you might be utterly compromised for discussion the subject.

Did you ever think to consider why she wants to keep the content the hardest in the game? Hell, she finally posted and gave us a concrete answer on the intentions for raiding, why it runs separate to the Fractal system, and you took it as something insulting.

Well, I do and I can, and as a client I have the right to do so. We paid for a product that we sustain with our money, we’re giving feedback on something that as you might notice is so far one of the most controversial desitions of the company, and they say “everything is fine, and tho we can and would be good to listen to you, we won’t”.

It’s like selling burgers and getting feedback on how a specific one is very tasty but unhealthy, and getting as a response “We thank you for your feedback but it’s supposed to be unhealthy”.

Aldath.1275:

Well, I do and I can, and as a client I have the right to do so. We paid for a product that we sustain with our money, we’re giving feedback on something that as you might notice is so far one of the most controversial desitions of the company, and they say “everything is fine, and tho we can and would be good to listen to you, we won’t”.

It’s like selling burgers and getting feedback on how a specific one is very tasty but unhealthy, and getting as a response “We thank you for your feedback but it’s supposed to be unhealthy”.

One of the most controversial decisions? Not even close. There are a small number of posters complaining. I see 1-2 new posters other than the same posters who post in all these threads. Ohoni may very well be responsible for half (or more) of the anti raid posts. To compare this subject to the most controversial topics in GW2 history is like comparing Real Madrid’s fan base to the fan base of the middle school team in Podunk, Iowa.

As to burgers, well, a burger made from 99% lean beef is less tasty than one made with, say 80% lean. Some believe fat is unhealthy. That doesn’t mean restaurants t sell 99% lean burgers. So, yeah, burgers are meant to be unhealthy — at least in some peoples’ view.

Sarrs.4831:

In reality, the vast majority of people who participate in LS content have no intention of touching raids with a 10-foot pole and an ‘easy mode raid’ would likely do absolutely nothing for them. It’s a waste of time and effort. Reducing LS content on the other hand would have a very real reduction in the game’s ability to retain players.

This. I am not against easy mode raids if a majority wants it, but I probably still would do them only with groaning and whining. Raid content is simply not attractive for me, I never found much enjoyment in trial and error games against the same mob or mechanic with the same group of people, my arcade days are over. It´s a little bit like with the underwater fractal, I absolutely despise it even on low levels as my direction sense is just bad underwater and underwater combat gets me absolutely lost most of the time.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Aldath.1275:

Well, I do and I can, and as a client I have the right to do so. We paid for a product that we sustain with our money, we’re giving feedback on something that as you might notice is so far one of the most controversial desitions of the company, and they say “everything is fine, and tho we can and would be good to listen to you, we won’t”.

It’s like selling burgers and getting feedback on how a specific one is very tasty but unhealthy, and getting as a response “We thank you for your feedback but it’s supposed to be unhealthy”.

One of the most controversial decisions? Not even close. There are a small number of posters complaining. I see 1-2 new posters other than the same posters who post in all these threads. Ohoni may very well be responsible for half (or more) of the anti raid posts. To compare this subject to the most controversial topics in GW2 history is like comparing Real Madrid’s fan base to the fan base of the middle school team in Podunk, Iowa.

As to burgers, well, a burger made from 99% lean beef is less tasty than one made with, say 80% lean. Some believe fat is unhealthy. That doesn’t mean restaurants t sell 99% lean burgers. So, yeah, burgers are meant to be unhealthy — at least in some peoples’ view.

The burger analogy is absurd anyways.

It’s more like ‘We thank you for your feedback, and we still do offer a vast array of other burgers for all our clients. This new burger much like all our other products is serving a demand from some of our other clients who enjoy it. We are looking out for all our customers.’

But getting back on track and away from food thoughts, I find it highly toxic for the game to be against the diversity of content and challenge.

But getting back on track and away from food thoughts, I find it highly toxic for the game to be against the diversity of content and challenge.

Agreed, so they should have both easy and hard versions of the raid to increase the amount of diverse content and challenge.

Ohoni.6057:

But getting back on track and away from food thoughts, I find it highly toxic for the game to be against the diversity of content and challenge.

Agreed, so they should have both easy and hard versions of the raid to increase the amount of diverse content and challenge.

WROOONG…I would say. All we need is this: people who like to raids should have some raid updates, people who like to go fractals should have some updates on fractals and people who like open world should have some living story and/or living event updates. So far this is have been getting recently and I can’t see how they can perform better than that, given that they also need to support PVP and wvw as well. There is your diversity. No more and no less than that.

WROOONG…I would say. All we need is this: people who like to raids should have some raid updates, people who like to go fractals should have some updates on fractals and people who like open world should have some living story and/or living event updates. So far this is have been getting recently and I can’t see how they can perform better than that, given that they also need to support PVP and wvw as well. There is your diversity. No more and no less than that.

That’s all well and good, so long as they stop providing incentive for players who don’t like one or more of those play type to play the type they don’t enjoy. So long as they continue to put rewards and scenarios that people might enjoy behind only one type of content the “to each their own and that’s fine” argument just does not apply.

Ohoni.6057:

WROOONG…I would say. All we need is this: people who like to raids should have some raid updates, people who like to go fractals should have some updates on fractals and people who like open world should have some living story and/or living event updates. So far this is have been getting recently and I can’t see how they can perform better than that, given that they also need to support PVP and wvw as well. There is your diversity. No more and no less than that.

That’s all well and good, so long as they stop providing incentive for players who don’t like one or more of those play type to play the type they don’t enjoy. So long as they continue to put rewards and scenarios that people might enjoy behind only one type of content the “to each their own and that’s fine” argument just does not apply.

Again…..WROOONG. No game will ever grow if they never put incentives( i.e. rewards) for players to participate in the different contents they develop. That was the main criticism of gw2 at its beginning (lack of rewards for partipating in a content) and that is what now they are doing with HoT and post HoT. Your ideas of tiers for raids goes directly against what I just quoted from you: you know, incentive players to get into raiding by providing multiple tiers. If people don’t like the prospect of raiding because they know they don’t enjoy it then they simply don’t play the content. It is as simple as that. They play the content they enjoy and get the rewards associated to that content. If you put all rewards accessible to all players regardless of the content they enjoy, then Anet will never have enough manpower and/or resources to retain players and those same players will complain on forums the content is burned too much quickly and too fast, which is exactly why they move away from the 2 weeks limited in time world living events.

On the topic of Raid Accessibility, how is multiple modes of raids going to increase accessibility? When I say Accessibility, I mean for the CURRENT Raids, so how is an easy mode version going to increase accessibility for the normal version?

This. I am not against easy mode raids if a majority wants it, but I probably still would do them only with groaning and whining. Raid content is simply not attractive for me, I never found much enjoyment in trial and error games against the same mob or mechanic with the same group of people, my arcade days are over. It´s a little bit like with the underwater fractal, I absolutely despise it even on low levels as my direction sense is just bad underwater and underwater combat gets me absolutely lost most of the time.

I agree with Torolan here, those asking for an easier mode for Raids won’t suddenly like the content itself. So it won’t do much (if at all) to help with Raid Accessibility, players will do it once, or twice, see the story/content and move on.

And further, how is allowing the raid rewards to be acquired from other types of content going to help with Raid Accessibility? Wouldn’t that reduce Raid Accessibility?

maddoctor.2738:

On the topic of Raid Accessibility, how is multiple modes of raids going to increase accessibility? When I say Accessibility, I mean for the CURRENT Raids, so how is an easy mode version going to increase accessibility for the normal version?

True, it won’t do much in that regard for the majority of the players (though it is going to get some more people into current mode eventually). What it will help with is giving out a feeling of accessibility, by offering an easy version to many.

maddoctor.2738:

I agree with Torolan here, those asking for an easier mode for Raids won’t suddenly like the content itself.

Not suddenly, that’s for certain (although some will get into it given time, if they will be able to do that on their terms). On the other hand, it will significantly reduce dislike of Raids, and the division of the community.

maddoctor.2738:

And further, how is allowing the raid rewards to be acquired from other types of content going to help with Raid Accessibility? Wouldn’t that reduce Raid Accessibility?

It might reduce raid desirability (but only for people that aren’t really interested in raids in the first place). Accessibility however would not go down at all.

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

On the topic of Raid Accessibility, how is multiple modes of raids going to increase accessibility? When I say Accessibility, I mean for the CURRENT Raids, so how is an easy mode version going to increase accessibility for the normal version?

True, it won’t do much in that regard for the majority of the players (though it is going to get some more people into current mode eventually). What it will help with is giving out a feeling of accessibility, by offering an easy version to many.

maddoctor.2738:

I agree with Torolan here, those asking for an easier mode for Raids won’t suddenly like the content itself.

Not suddenly, that’s for certain (although some will get into it given time, if they will be able to do that on their terms). On the other hand, it will significantly reduce dislike of Raids, and the division of the community.

So either no effect or very little effect to Raid Accessibility itself, only less hurt feelings. I’d rather they focus their time and resources on something more productive then, there are quite a few suggestions so far about how to increase Raid Accessibility, although they don’t get as much attention and/or discussion.

I hope they use the best of them going forward.

It is worth nothing that, since Saturday (of a holiday weekend in the states), there have been at least 4 new threads – by what appears to be at least 4 separate people who have not been part of the discussion to date – appear across the various subforums expressing concern about the accessibility of raiding, the disparity between professions/builds in raids and the negative impacts those elements are having on the game.

And, in almost every thread, the same 2-3 people advocating against tiered difficulty are doing everything they can to shut the conversation down. It is telling that, in the face of that kind of criticism, we still see so many expressing this concern.

Without a doubt, these kinds of concerns are going to continue to crop up and will most likely only become more prevalent (both in game and on the forums) – especially as new raids are introduced to the game and the gap between experienced and beginner raiders grows wider and wider.

People aren’t whining. They aren’t making things up. There is a legitimate desire for tiered difficulty in the game.