Guild Wars 2

STIHL.2489:

Which means.. Raids could have been a catastrophic flop as far as the development went, and you would have no way to know, or say otherwise.

It also means that every single aspect of the game other than raids could be exactly the same as it is now if raids didnt exist…meaning they were only a net positive.

The point is that we will never know, so having the opinion that “they should never be implemented” is useless because it doesn’t provide any feedback that can be used to improve the game in any way.

ANET has the numbers to determine that they weren’t a catastrophic flop, otherwise they wouldn’t be continuing to add more resources/content to raids.

ButterPeanut.9746:

You also are missing the point here. It really doesn’t matter about the type of content but rather the skillset/mindset/requirements of the player to succeed in the game mode.

I’ll humor you with this.. lets see if you are right.

Both game modes are built around coordinated team play.

Nope.

Both game modes have increased incentive/reward for becoming exceptional at the content.

Nope.

Both game modes have a relatively high skill barrier for entering the content successfully (as compared to other content in gw2, not other games).

Again, this is not true at all.

Both game modes teach you to improve your skill set overtime as you play the content (individually and as a group).

Again.. there is no truth to this either.

Both game modes have prestige items associated with them.

Ok.. one out of 5 is.. well.. yah that’s pretty bad.

That’s enough for now.

Yah.. I agree.. please stop now.

STIHL.2489:

Feanor.2358:

STIHL.2489:

PvP is very accessible to you, in fact you can even have your very own arena. Care to try again?

Same for raids. Everyone can create a raid squad, invite people and enter instance.

PvP gives you full rewards just for trying.. raids don’t.

Ah, so it’s not raids that are inaccessible, it’s their rewards. Thanks for proving yet again you’re only after the shinies.

It was always about the shinies. Hiding that is the only way to get some “credibility”. Anet could implement a story mode with minimal rewards (basic lootbags) and everyone (the vocal people especially) would still complain despite getting what they wanted. It’s just hypocrisy and vanity.

zoomborg.9462:

It was always about the shinies. Hiding that is the only way to get some “credibility”. Anet could implement a story mode with minimal rewards (basic lootbags) and everyone (the vocal people especially) would still complain despite getting what they wanted. It’s just hypocrisy and vanity.

Here’s the fault with that logic. Raid rewards aren’t that great now. We get a guaranteed exotic, a few magnetite shards, a small chance at an ascended chest (the chance feels higher in fractals and WvW, in fact) and the legendary currency.

None of that is much better than a champ bag. The raid legendaries are considered ugly as sin (and there are multiple paths to the functionality now) and, as I noted, there are way more efficient ways to earn ascended.

With that in mind, I doubt many would care if an easy mode gave a lower reward.

So, yes, it is about getting the experience, not the paltry exotic and small chance at an ascended chest and legendary insight.

I could see an argument for rewarding a tiny amount of magnetite (without unlocking the unique boss skins, of course) – but that would just be as a (really slow) way for people to get toons ready for the real raids – but that one is pretty optional (and it wouldn’t detract from raids – people can farm magnetite on escort and w1 trash anyway if they really care about that).

Blaeys.3102:

zoomborg.9462:

It was always about the shinies. Hiding that is the only way to get some “credibility”. Anet could implement a story mode with minimal rewards (basic lootbags) and everyone (the vocal people especially) would still complain despite getting what they wanted. It’s just hypocrisy and vanity.

Here’s the fault with that logic. Raid rewards aren’t that great now. We get a guaranteed exotic, a few magnetite shards, a small chance at an ascended chest (the chance feels higher in fractals and WvW, in fact) and the legendary currency.

None of that is much better than a champ bag. The raid legendaries are considered ugly as sin (and there are multiple paths to the functionality now) and, as I noted, there are way more efficient ways to earn ascended.

With that in mind, I doubt many would care if an easy mode gave a lower reward.

So, yes, it is about getting the experience, not the paltry exotic and small chance at an ascended chest and legendary insight.

I could see an argument for rewarding a tiny amount of magnetite (without unlocking the unique boss skins, of course) – but that would just be as a (really slow) way for people to get toons ready for the real raids – but that one is pretty optional (and it wouldn’t detract from raids – people can farm magnetite on escort and w1 trash anyway if they really care about that).

Lul i get about 20-30g in liquid gold with roughly 200-250 magn shards (depending on minis) for 2hours of play. Add the asc drops which are pretty good on rng and u got pretty decent rewards. I pretty much buy anything i need (asc gear) with magn shards and if i have a surplus i use it to sell ghostly infusions (about 100g per sell). The rewards are fine as they are.

The vast majority of the vocal people when ez raid mode is discussed, withdraw from any kind of discussion when rewards are the subject. They hide behind their little finger and w8 until another thread has opened. And if that thread doesnt go their way they w8 for another and so on….it’s just sad.

So im calling it for those vocal people that observe this thread. If Anet introduced an ez mode without the achievements, currencies, collections, liquid gold for killing the bosses and loot similar to what u get on runs where u already killed the boss b4 in the week WOULD YOU be satisfied? This is where the line is drawn between reason and pure entitlement.
Do u want a mode to take it easy or practice? Or are u simply trying to get rewards for zero effort? I don’t expect a straight answer tbh but w/e, food for thought i guess.

zoomborg.9462:

Blaeys.3102:

zoomborg.9462:

It was always about the shinies. Hiding that is the only way to get some “credibility”. Anet could implement a story mode with minimal rewards (basic lootbags) and everyone (the vocal people especially) would still complain despite getting what they wanted. It’s just hypocrisy and vanity.

Here’s the fault with that logic. Raid rewards aren’t that great now. We get a guaranteed exotic, a few magnetite shards, a small chance at an ascended chest (the chance feels higher in fractals and WvW, in fact) and the legendary currency.

None of that is much better than a champ bag. The raid legendaries are considered ugly as sin (and there are multiple paths to the functionality now) and, as I noted, there are way more efficient ways to earn ascended.

With that in mind, I doubt many would care if an easy mode gave a lower reward.

So, yes, it is about getting the experience, not the paltry exotic and small chance at an ascended chest and legendary insight.

I could see an argument for rewarding a tiny amount of magnetite (without unlocking the unique boss skins, of course) – but that would just be as a (really slow) way for people to get toons ready for the real raids – but that one is pretty optional (and it wouldn’t detract from raids – people can farm magnetite on escort and w1 trash anyway if they really care about that).

Lul i get about 20-30g in liquid gold with roughly 200-250 magn shards (depending on minis) for 2hours of play. Add the asc drops which are pretty good on rng and u got pretty decent rewards. I pretty much buy anything i need (asc gear) with magn shards and if i have a surplus i use it to sell ghostly infusions (about 100g per sell). The rewards are fine as they are.

The vast majority of the vocal people when ez raid mode is discussed, withdraw from any kind of discussion when rewards are the subject. They hide behind their little finger and w8 until another thread has opened. And if that thread doesnt go their way they w8 for another and so on….it’s just sad.

So im calling it for those vocal people that observe this thread. If Anet introduced an ez mode without the achievements, currencies, collections, liquid gold for killing the bosses and loot similar to what u get on runs where u already killed the boss b4 in the week WOULD YOU be satisfied? This is where the line is drawn between reason and pure entitlement.
Do u want a mode to take it easy or practice? Or are u simply trying to get rewards for zero effort? I don’t expect a straight answer tbh but w/e, food for thought i guess.

Sorry, but I don’t see a lot of people asking for – or even discussing – the idea of lesser difficulty with the same rewards. People are asking for a way to experience the content (and often bring up the model other games use – which does use a scaling reward to ensure higher difficulties are rewarded properly – it just makes common sense).

It seems like you are assuming a lot – in which case, there is no way to provide an actual counterpoint – because youre fabricating a hypothetical model that many of us don’t believes exists in the first place.

There are some valid discussion points around whether they should or should not implement a story or easy mode, but “the community will just ask for more reward” isn’t one of them. First – almost no one is asking for comparable reward systems and, second, those that do ask for it pretty much do the same with every other part of the game now (you’ll never make that small group happy in any part of the game).

Blaeys.3102:

snip

I don’t hold grudges against anyone here.

Anyone (but anet it seems) could have seen a bit of a rift would form when Guildwars 2 took its first, and most cautious step away from being fully casual to cater to those who sought challenging content.

And I guess to quote my friend again:

“I worry it won’t ever get better tbh since there’s no… quantifiable standard, I guesd.
In FF or Wow or even wildstar you can tell within like 5 seconds of meeting someone if they’re the real deal or not.
[…] You can tell by the way someone thinks about their class if they are up to standard
There IS no standard in gw2.
It’s made by the community, which is a bunch of [bad players] who don’t know the math behind raids and don’t care to.
They find the broken exploit builds from people who do a little math, say that’s gotta be what’s required because raids are SO HARD, and curse anyone who says otherwise.

As someone who does math every day to raid, I was not amused. So I kittened off because it’s not fun enough to be casual and not interesting enough to justify the elitism.
Like, casually I can do literally 4x the personal check on vg. It’s easy. I can handle that, and you as my friend knew that.
If I wanted to join a chill [not awful] group (if that exists) I’d have to do nearly 10x the check.
I’m not going to spend enough time to SOLO THE DPS CHECK as a one off. I’m just not. I have better kitten to do.
The fact THAT’S the kind of standard people hold is neat, but extremely misguided. And it’s festered into a hell hole."

Feanor.2358:

STIHL.2489:

Feanor.2358:

STIHL.2489:

PvP is very accessible to you, in fact you can even have your very own arena. Care to try again?

Same for raids. Everyone can create a raid squad, invite people and enter instance.

PvP gives you full rewards just for trying.. raids don’t.

Ah, so it’s not raids that are inaccessible, it’s their rewards. Thanks for proving yet again you’re only after the shinies.

Umm, .. you were actually confused on that?

Did you honestly really think anyone would care about raids if they could have gotten the same rewards from doing living story?

Blaeys.3102:

zoomborg.9462:

Blaeys.3102:

zoomborg.9462:

It was always about the shinies. Hiding that is the only way to get some “credibility”. Anet could implement a story mode with minimal rewards (basic lootbags) and everyone (the vocal people especially) would still complain despite getting what they wanted. It’s just hypocrisy and vanity.

Here’s the fault with that logic. Raid rewards aren’t that great now. We get a guaranteed exotic, a few magnetite shards, a small chance at an ascended chest (the chance feels higher in fractals and WvW, in fact) and the legendary currency.

None of that is much better than a champ bag. The raid legendaries are considered ugly as sin (and there are multiple paths to the functionality now) and, as I noted, there are way more efficient ways to earn ascended.

With that in mind, I doubt many would care if an easy mode gave a lower reward.

So, yes, it is about getting the experience, not the paltry exotic and small chance at an ascended chest and legendary insight.

I could see an argument for rewarding a tiny amount of magnetite (without unlocking the unique boss skins, of course) – but that would just be as a (really slow) way for people to get toons ready for the real raids – but that one is pretty optional (and it wouldn’t detract from raids – people can farm magnetite on escort and w1 trash anyway if they really care about that).

Lul i get about 20-30g in liquid gold with roughly 200-250 magn shards (depending on minis) for 2hours of play. Add the asc drops which are pretty good on rng and u got pretty decent rewards. I pretty much buy anything i need (asc gear) with magn shards and if i have a surplus i use it to sell ghostly infusions (about 100g per sell). The rewards are fine as they are.

The vast majority of the vocal people when ez raid mode is discussed, withdraw from any kind of discussion when rewards are the subject. They hide behind their little finger and w8 until another thread has opened. And if that thread doesnt go their way they w8 for another and so on….it’s just sad.

So im calling it for those vocal people that observe this thread. If Anet introduced an ez mode without the achievements, currencies, collections, liquid gold for killing the bosses and loot similar to what u get on runs where u already killed the boss b4 in the week WOULD YOU be satisfied? This is where the line is drawn between reason and pure entitlement.
Do u want a mode to take it easy or practice? Or are u simply trying to get rewards for zero effort? I don’t expect a straight answer tbh but w/e, food for thought i guess.

Sorry, but I don’t see a lot of people asking for – or even discussing – the idea of lesser difficulty with the same rewards. People are asking for a way to experience the content (and often bring up the model other games use – which does use a scaling reward to ensure higher difficulties are rewarded properly – it just makes common sense).

It seems like you are assuming a lot – in which case, there is no way to provide an actual counterpoint – because youre fabricating a hypothetical model that many of us don’t believes exists in the first place.

There are some valid discussion points around whether they should or should not implement a story or easy mode, but “the community will just ask for more reward” isn’t one of them. First – almost no one is asking for comparable reward systems and, second, those that do ask for it pretty much do the same with every other part of the game now (you’ll never make that small group happy in any part of the game).

People are already asking for ez mode with same rewards in this same thread, if u check u will see it. And generally people avoid talking about it cause it removes any credibility from their posts. This community has always been greedy, right from the start and this is general behavior and not a one-time thing. It also resulted in core Guild Wars 2 becoming one of the most stale and boring MMO’s due to braindead difficulty and very easily reachable end game goals. Glad that changed at least.

STIHL.2489:

Feanor.2358:

STIHL.2489:

Feanor.2358:

STIHL.2489:

PvP is very accessible to you, in fact you can even have your very own arena. Care to try again?

Same for raids. Everyone can create a raid squad, invite people and enter instance.

PvP gives you full rewards just for trying.. raids don’t.

Ah, so it’s not raids that are inaccessible, it’s their rewards. Thanks for proving yet again you’re only after the shinies.

Umm, .. you were actually confused on that?

Did you honestly really think anyone would care about raids if they could have gotten the same rewards from doing living story?

It doesn’t surprise me in the slightest to see the self-righteous stance of “raids are inaccessible” reduced to simple greed. But it does amuse me to see it admitted. It’s always fun to see someone undermine his own position in a debate.

Feanor.2358:

It doesn’t surprise me in the slightest to see the self-righteous stance of “raids are inaccessible” reduced to simple greed. But it does amuse me to see it admitted. It’s always fun to see someone undermine his own position in a debate.

Notice, how the same applies to the raiders as well. In the end every discussion ends up being about the rewards, because it’s something both sides care the most.

Astralporing.1957:

Feanor.2358:

It doesn’t surprise me in the slightest to see the self-righteous stance of “raids are inaccessible” reduced to simple greed. But it does amuse me to see it admitted. It’s always fun to see someone undermine his own position in a debate.

Notice, how the same applies to the raiders as well. In the end every discussion ends up being about the rewards, because it’s something both sides care the most.

Not really.

We just care that the effort we put in isn’t undervalued. There’s a difference between that and “rewards”.

Most raiders could care less if L.Armor was open to other modes (as it is now) so long as the pathway to get it is equal.

Just like we could care less about an “easy” mode so long as the rewards are scaled appropriately. It’s just that said people seem to want their easy modes to have a direct pathway to L.Armor which is a no go by any standards of maintaining the health and stability of not only the mode but the reward structure that would have to be in place and thus the endless cycle of this dead horse being beaten continues.

Given that we’ve heard nothing about an easy mode i think it’s a safe bet to say that a change to rewards or progress towards said desire isn’t happening anytime soon and it’s probably for the best that people realize this.

Murdock.6547:

Blaeys.3102:

snip

I don’t hold grudges against anyone here.

Anyone (but anet it seems) could have seen a bit of a rift would form when Guildwars 2 took its first, and most cautious step away from being fully casual to cater to those who sought challenging content.

And I guess to quote my friend again:

“I worry it won’t ever get better tbh since there’s no… quantifiable standard, I guesd.
In FF or Wow or even wildstar you can tell within like 5 seconds of meeting someone if they’re the real deal or not.
[…] You can tell by the way someone thinks about their class if they are up to standard
There IS no standard in gw2.
It’s made by the community, which is a bunch of [bad players] who don’t know the math behind raids and don’t care to.
They find the broken exploit builds from people who do a little math, say that’s gotta be what’s required because raids are SO HARD, and curse anyone who says otherwise.

As someone who does math every day to raid, I was not amused. So I kittened off because it’s not fun enough to be casual and not interesting enough to justify the elitism.
Like, casually I can do literally 4x the personal check on vg. It’s easy. I can handle that, and you as my friend knew that.
If I wanted to join a chill [not awful] group (if that exists) I’d have to do nearly 10x the check.
I’m not going to spend enough time to SOLO THE DPS CHECK as a one off. I’m just not. I have better kitten to do.
The fact THAT’S the kind of standard people hold is neat, but extremely misguided. And it’s festered into a hell hole."

Thank you for bringing the topic up and continuing to contribute to the conversation. Your original post is spot on and something I very much agree with.

The only thing I would add to your original points is that this isn’t something we can expect the community to remedy – in part for the very reasons this thread derailed so quickly.

I believe that there are fundamental flaws with how they implemented raids into the game that give the worst of our community the excuse – and even encouragement – to behave the ways they do. Until those flaws are addressed (and, at the very least, acknowledged by Anet), the community fracturing you hint at in the original post isn’t going anywhere.

Regardless, thanks for trying to add positively to the conversation. Sorry if I contributed to moving away from that in any way.

Feanor.2358:

STIHL.2489:

Feanor.2358:

STIHL.2489:

Feanor.2358:

STIHL.2489:

PvP is very accessible to you, in fact you can even have your very own arena. Care to try again?

Same for raids. Everyone can create a raid squad, invite people and enter instance.

PvP gives you full rewards just for trying.. raids don’t.

Ah, so it’s not raids that are inaccessible, it’s their rewards. Thanks for proving yet again you’re only after the shinies.

Umm, .. you were actually confused on that?

Did you honestly really think anyone would care about raids if they could have gotten the same rewards from doing living story?

It doesn’t surprise me in the slightest to see the self-righteous stance of “raids are inaccessible” reduced to simple greed. But it does amuse me to see it admitted. It’s always fun to see someone undermine his own position in a debate.

What can I say, I’m an honest guy, unlike the people that try to pass it off that they just want the challenge or whatever… really everyone in these discussions knew that its always been and only ever will be about the loot... nothing else maters.

Maybe now we can dispense with the facade that there is any other motive, and make the loot accessible so we can all stop talking about the raid.

People derail my thread about bringing the community together into a flame war and it keeps going. I get angry and tell them to stop (albeit in an unpleasant way) and I get my post deleted.
I can tell when I’m not wanted.

TexZero.7910:

Astralporing.1957:

Feanor.2358:

It doesn’t surprise me in the slightest to see the self-righteous stance of “raids are inaccessible” reduced to simple greed. But it does amuse me to see it admitted. It’s always fun to see someone undermine his own position in a debate.

Notice, how the same applies to the raiders as well. In the end every discussion ends up being about the rewards, because it’s something both sides care the most.

Not really.

We just care that the effort we put in isn’t undervalued. There’s a difference between that and “rewards”.

Lets set things clear, No, there isn’t. Those are the exact same thing, and all these discussions come down to that one single all important thing – Loot

Nothing else matters, and we all know it too, no matter how diplomatic it is worded, or how much sugar coating tries to get slathered on to it, when all it said and down, it all boils down to dat loot,

If raids offered something other then their oh so precious loot, none of us would be having this discussion .. none of us

All the Raiders would not be here trying to saying anything and everything that could be said to justify that precious special loot being reserved to raids, even going so far as to try and make it off that it was not loot.. but.. that quickly gets revealed that.. Yah.. it’s about the Loot.

For example, if doing a raid gave a special title and just a good chunk of gold, we would not be having this discussion, and you would have your special tittle to feel appreciated, something you could put on to show everyone that you did something the filthy masses could not.. but.. we all know that would not be enough, because.. the reality is, it really boils down to Greed, it all comes down to that Loot

Spare me any other hyperbola.

STIHL.2489:

Spare me any other hyperbola.

couldn’t resist.

Murdock.6547:

STIHL.2489:

Spare me any other hyperbola.

couldn’t resist.

Ok.. THAT was funny.. and DYAC!

Blaeys.3102:

I believe that there are fundamental flaws with how they implemented raids into the game that give the worst of our community the excuse – and even encouragement – to behave the ways they do. Until those flaws are addressed (and, at the very least, acknowledged by Anet), the community fracturing you hint at in the original post isn’t going anywhere.

If that’s the problem then remove the excuse. Do it this way:
Add a new Raid LFG called Raid Training, anyone who makes a training LFG posts it there, so it’s much easier for new players to find a training run and much easier for training guilds to find people. This is the first step and is probably the easiest to implement.

Optional/debatable: make sure there is strict policy in this LFG part so it only contains training runs and not instance selling. If that’s the case then another LFG part can be added called Raid Selling. Again so the LFG listings aren’t confusing while selling runs, training runs and normal runs aren’t being put on the same list.

Optional 2: Gate the actual Raid LFG behind boss kills. In order to see the Raid LFG you must kill all the bosses at least once or to see listing for Boss A you must’ve killed Boss A. This will make sure those without boss kill experience can only join the training runs and not join groups that aren’t meant for them. All-welcome groups can be created in the training tab.

Instead of “fixing” the community split, try to go around it and make sure the split parts do not play with each other.

Astralporing.1957:

Feanor.2358:

It doesn’t surprise me in the slightest to see the self-righteous stance of “raids are inaccessible” reduced to simple greed. But it does amuse me to see it admitted. It’s always fun to see someone undermine his own position in a debate.

Notice, how the same applies to the raiders as well. In the end every discussion ends up being about the rewards, because it’s something both sides care the most.

It’s not exactly the same. Every specific game mode needs its own rewards to keep the players interested for longer time. Raids have the Envoy armors, FotM have Ad Infinitum, PvP has The Ascension and so forth. It is only normal for the raiders to be concerned about devaluing the raid rewards. If that was to happen, it would affect their motivation to play raids.

In effect, raiders prefer to deny non-raiders the raid rewards in order to keep the raiding experience. Non-raiders prefer to deny raiders the raiding experience in order to get the rewards.

It might seem pretty much the same, however I think the raiders’ stance is objectively more valid, since the raiding experience is why this content is in the game in the first place.

STIHL.2489:

What can I say, I’m an honest guy, unlike the people that try to pass it off that they just want the challenge or whatever… really everyone in these discussions knew that its always been and only ever will be about the loot... nothing else maters.

Maybe now we can dispense with the facade that there is any other motive, and make the loot accessible so we can all stop talking about the raid.

If you’re after the loot, you should probably just chestfarm Silverwastes. It’s never only the loot.

TexZero.7910:

Astralporing.1957:

Feanor.2358:

It doesn’t surprise me in the slightest to see the self-righteous stance of “raids are inaccessible” reduced to simple greed. But it does amuse me to see it admitted. It’s always fun to see someone undermine his own position in a debate.

Notice, how the same applies to the raiders as well. In the end every discussion ends up being about the rewards, because it’s something both sides care the most.

Not really.

We just care that the effort we put in isn’t undervalued. There’s a difference between that and “rewards”.

Most raiders could care less if L.Armor was open to other modes (as it is now) so long as the pathway to get it is equal.

It’s just when we get to details, you end up severely overvaluing raids. Anything “equal” to you would be something actually way harder to get than the raid one – and likely practically impossible to get. Because, in your mind, no content besides raids is really “good enough” for legendary armor.
(notice, the “you” here is not specifically aimed at you, but those raiders that keep arguing about it on the forums in general)

Astralporing.1957:

Anything “equal” to you would be something actually way harder to get than the raid one – and likely practically impossible to get.

Legendary armor is available in PVP and WVW

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

Anything “equal” to you would be something actually way harder to get than the raid one – and likely practically impossible to get.

Legendary armor is available in PVP and WVW

And i have already seen many raiders complaining about it, saying that it’s way too easy to get it there. Even if it doesn’t have any special skin.

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

Anything “equal” to you would be something actually way harder to get than the raid one – and likely practically impossible to get.

Legendary armor is available in PVP and WVW

And i have already seen many raiders complaining about it, saying that it’s way too easy to get it there. Even if it doesn’t have any special skin.

Those who complain about the PVP/WVW legendary armors are just sad people. I for one think it was an excellent idea to add them to WVW. Not so sure about PVP though because the legendary ability to swap stats is useless there so I don’t see a point to have them in PVP (since the skin is mostly the same)

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

Anything “equal” to you would be something actually way harder to get than the raid one – and likely practically impossible to get.

Legendary armor is available in PVP and WVW

And i have already seen many raiders complaining about it, saying that it’s way too easy to get it there. Even if it doesn’t have any special skin.

Many raiders? It’s more like that the overwhelming majority doesn’t even care about it at all. Even in this subforum where so many people are being treated like toxic elitists almost all comments were positive towards the change.
Personally, I have yet to found someone who is strictly against it.

Vinceman.4572:

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

Anything “equal” to you would be something actually way harder to get than the raid one – and likely practically impossible to get.

Legendary armor is available in PVP and WVW

And i have already seen many raiders complaining about it, saying that it’s way too easy to get it there. Even if it doesn’t have any special skin.

Many raiders? It’s more like that the overwhelming majority doesn’t even care about it at all. Even in this subforum where so many people are being treated like toxic elitists almost all comments were positive towards the change.
Personally, I have yet to found someone who is strictly against it.

No1 is against it. Active raiders dont really care, pvpers dont care as much, wvwers are very pleased cause thats where stat-swapping is most important. It doesnt have any difficulty, just takes time. So again no1 is against it but there are some really salty people that cant use leg armor aquisition as an excuse for ez raids and such.

The PvP/WvW leg armor was basically Anet dropping the mic on the people complaining by saying “there u go, now go back to playing”.

Feanor.2358:

STIHL.2489:

What can I say, I’m an honest guy, unlike the people that try to pass it off that they just want the challenge or whatever… really everyone in these discussions knew that its always been and only ever will be about the loot... nothing else maters.

Maybe now we can dispense with the facade that there is any other motive, and make the loot accessible so we can all stop talking about the raid.

If you’re after the loot, you should probably just chestfarm Silverwastes. It’s never only the loot.

So you would be fine if players could get Legendary Armor from doing a Chest Farm in Silverwastes, Didn’t think so… Its always only about the loot

STIHL.2489:

Feanor.2358:

STIHL.2489:

What can I say, I’m an honest guy, unlike the people that try to pass it off that they just want the challenge or whatever… really everyone in these discussions knew that its always been and only ever will be about the loot... nothing else maters.

Maybe now we can dispense with the facade that there is any other motive, and make the loot accessible so we can all stop talking about the raid.

If you’re after the loot, you should probably just chestfarm Silverwastes. It’s never only the loot.

So you would be fine if players could get Legendary Armor from doing a Chest Farm in Silverwastes, Didn’t think so… Its always only about the loot

Nice strawman. But still incorrect. The problem isn’t the loot, the problem is what you propose would kill raids. Tell you what, tweak the numbers so you don’t kill the raids and I’m fine with legendary armor being obtainable through SW chest farm. Say, add the precursor armor pieces as a rare drop, like 2-3 times rarer than a precursor. You wanna farm SW for legendary armor? Be my guest. But I don’t think you’d like that, would you?

I think the major problem in raid and other modes in this game is balance.

PoF should be the opportunity to balance the classes by clarifying theirs specs and theirs roles. Each class should a clear role in a group. I think each class have a natural “dual” role :

Warrior & Necro : DPS Tank
Guardian & Revenant : Support Tank
Ranger & Ele : DPS Support
Mesmer & Thief : DPS & Utility (cc, stealth, mobility)
Engie : Jack of all trades

It’s a total non sense a pink light armored wizard is chosen as a tank over a warrior.

How can PoF “clarify” anything when HoT elite specs and core specs remain?

STIHL.2489:

Feanor.2358:

STIHL.2489:

Feanor.2358:

STIHL.2489:

Feanor.2358:

STIHL.2489:

PvP is very accessible to you, in fact you can even have your very own arena. Care to try again?

Same for raids. Everyone can create a raid squad, invite people and enter instance.

PvP gives you full rewards just for trying.. raids don’t.

Ah, so it’s not raids that are inaccessible, it’s their rewards. Thanks for proving yet again you’re only after the shinies.

Umm, .. you were actually confused on that?

Did you honestly really think anyone would care about raids if they could have gotten the same rewards from doing living story?

It doesn’t surprise me in the slightest to see the self-righteous stance of “raids are inaccessible” reduced to simple greed. But it does amuse me to see it admitted. It’s always fun to see someone undermine his own position in a debate.

What can I say, I’m an honest guy, unlike the people that try to pass it off that they just want the challenge or whatever… really everyone in these discussions knew that its always been and only ever will be about the loot... nothing else maters.

Maybe now we can dispense with the facade that there is any other motive, and make the loot accessible so we can all stop talking about the raid.

You are far from honest. The biggest debate in this discussion has always been about a lore/training mode or free loot. It’s something that u never mentioned, not even slightly until the discussion turned in that direction, at which point u either come clean or get the kitten off this thread. And now u just drop it as “it’s a given that it’s about the loot and its always been about the loot”.

No it wasn’t. Take every active raider. EVERYONE. Everyone clears at least 2 times in a week, even though the loot is crappy after u already killed a boss.U are actually losing gold by spending consumables, especially now that they are more expensive than ever. If they cared about loot they would just farm fractal 40/ silverwastes and get rich or just play the TP.
You thinking it is all about the loot shows your alienation with everything that raids stand for, everything people play them for AKA fun (even people with 500+ li still clear weekly) and how a stranger u are to this topic to even have a “valid” opinion. Admitting that u just want free loot without effort was u throwing your own credibility out of the window.

zoomborg.9462:

Admitting that u just want free loot without effort was u throwing your own credibility out of the window.

But it’s amusing to see it, isn’t it? The attempt to bring the opposite side down on the same level, too, while we’re on it.

CptAurellian.9537:

How can PoF “clarify” anything when HoT elite specs and core specs remain?

If I was a dev I would make this :
1) each class has now a “vanilla” elite spec. The spec would be the one that improves the F1 F2 etc buttons. Virtues for guard, arcane for ele, etc …
2) Elite spec don’t determine your role but how you do it (with virtues, with a pet, with a toolkit, with tomes etc). The traits would be utility/pvp oriented (like “when feared, gain aegis” etc).
3) Classic specs orient your role in group, according the roles available to your class. i.e for warrior who would be a “DPS tank”, 2 spec oriented for damage (power and condi), 2 spec oriented for tanking (mitigation and self-healing/or avoidance). Each spec should be totally disconnected to not overlapping and reinforcing each other, so power/condi would be as powerful that power/mitigation etc. Guardian who would be a “support tank”, whould have a mitigation spec, a self-healing spec, an offensive support spec, a defensive/healing support spec.

It’s way too late too bring such massive changes together with PoF. Actually, I strongly doubt such a complete overhaul of the class system will ever happen in the lifetime of this game.

And I guess making this kind of changes would be quite controversial and could hit the game hard.

You are probably both true, but I think if Anet don’t bring massive overhaul for the next xpac, it will be more and more complicated to have a balanced and clear game and the situation of elitism and over optimization we know today will be worse.
Imagine : you will have to be a shadowspy thief (4th xpac elite spec) to tank and a brewmaster warrior (5th xpac elite spec) to heal, the other slots will be filled by lemon hunter guardians (3th xpac elite spec) and jester mesmers (4th xpac elite spec).
What a mess.

Feanor.2358:

STIHL.2489:

Feanor.2358:

STIHL.2489:

What can I say, I’m an honest guy, unlike the people that try to pass it off that they just want the challenge or whatever… really everyone in these discussions knew that its always been and only ever will be about the loot... nothing else maters.

Maybe now we can dispense with the facade that there is any other motive, and make the loot accessible so we can all stop talking about the raid.

If you’re after the loot, you should probably just chestfarm Silverwastes. It’s never only the loot.

So you would be fine if players could get Legendary Armor from doing a Chest Farm in Silverwastes, Didn’t think so… Its always only about the loot

Nice strawman. But still incorrect. The problem isn’t the loot, the problem is what you propose would kill raids.

If changing the loot would kill the raid, then it was always about the loot, it’s not about the fun, or the challenge, or any of the other snake oil reasons that get passed off, it all boils down to loot, That’s how they killed dungeons, by doing nothing but modifying the loot.

So can we all just admit to it now?

zoomborg.9462:

STIHL.2489:

Feanor.2358:

STIHL.2489:

Feanor.2358:

STIHL.2489:

Feanor.2358:

STIHL.2489:

PvP is very accessible to you, in fact you can even have your very own arena. Care to try again?

Same for raids. Everyone can create a raid squad, invite people and enter instance.

PvP gives you full rewards just for trying.. raids don’t.

Ah, so it’s not raids that are inaccessible, it’s their rewards. Thanks for proving yet again you’re only after the shinies.

Umm, .. you were actually confused on that?

Did you honestly really think anyone would care about raids if they could have gotten the same rewards from doing living story?

It doesn’t surprise me in the slightest to see the self-righteous stance of “raids are inaccessible” reduced to simple greed. But it does amuse me to see it admitted. It’s always fun to see someone undermine his own position in a debate.

What can I say, I’m an honest guy, unlike the people that try to pass it off that they just want the challenge or whatever… really everyone in these discussions knew that its always been and only ever will be about the loot... nothing else maters.

Maybe now we can dispense with the facade that there is any other motive, and make the loot accessible so we can all stop talking about the raid.

You are far from honest. The biggest debate in this discussion has always been about a lore/training mode or free loot. It’s something that u never mentioned, not even slightly until the discussion turned in that direction, at which point u either come clean or get the kitten off this thread. And now u just drop it as “it’s a given that it’s about the loot and its always been about the loot”.

No it wasn’t. Take every active raider. EVERYONE. Everyone clears at least 2 times in a week, even though the loot is crappy after u already killed a boss.U are actually losing gold by spending consumables, especially now that they are more expensive than ever. If they cared about loot they would just farm fractal 40/ silverwastes and get rich or just play the TP.
You thinking it is all about the loot shows your alienation with everything that raids stand for, everything people play them for AKA fun (even people with 500+ li still clear weekly) and how a stranger u are to this topic to even have a “valid” opinion. Admitting that u just want free loot without effort was u throwing your own credibility out of the window.

IF there was any truth to what you just said, there would have never been the veritably endless and I might add, still continuing, objection to a ‘story mode’ version of the Raid, to unlock the Lore and Legendary Armor for the less hardcore crowed… but the never-ending outcry against it, makes it clear as day, It’s always been and always will be about the loot.

If there was any other reason, there would not have been the massive objection in the first place to a story mode.

However. I feel that its a pity that reality and the actions and words of your fellow raiders disagree with you, It could have been a great game if there was any real truth to your words, a game we all could have enjoyed.

You could have your fun, I could have my loot, and we all would be happy.. but.. yet that’s not the reality of things now is it, because, it’s all about the loot, and that is why, here we are.. still at it.

Scipion.7548:

You are probably both true, but I think if Anet don’t bring massive overhaul for the next xpac, it will be more and more complicated to have a balanced and clear game and the situation of elitism and over optimization we know today will be worse. […]

That’s certainly true and I’m curious how, in the long term, they’ll solve the balance issue. Especially when the devs are already unable to properly balance a single set of elite specs. But that’s their problem, not mine. Maybe sweeping changes will have to be made at some point, but I’m sure the backlash will be epic.

PS: We seriously need those elite spec names you suggested!

STIHL.2489:

zoomborg.9462:

STIHL.2489:

Feanor.2358:

STIHL.2489:

Feanor.2358:

STIHL.2489:

Feanor.2358:

STIHL.2489:

PvP is very accessible to you, in fact you can even have your very own arena. Care to try again?

Same for raids. Everyone can create a raid squad, invite people and enter instance.

PvP gives you full rewards just for trying.. raids don’t.

Ah, so it’s not raids that are inaccessible, it’s their rewards. Thanks for proving yet again you’re only after the shinies.

Umm, .. you were actually confused on that?

Did you honestly really think anyone would care about raids if they could have gotten the same rewards from doing living story?

It doesn’t surprise me in the slightest to see the self-righteous stance of “raids are inaccessible” reduced to simple greed. But it does amuse me to see it admitted. It’s always fun to see someone undermine his own position in a debate.

What can I say, I’m an honest guy, unlike the people that try to pass it off that they just want the challenge or whatever… really everyone in these discussions knew that its always been and only ever will be about the loot... nothing else maters.

Maybe now we can dispense with the facade that there is any other motive, and make the loot accessible so we can all stop talking about the raid.

You are far from honest. The biggest debate in this discussion has always been about a lore/training mode or free loot. It’s something that u never mentioned, not even slightly until the discussion turned in that direction, at which point u either come clean or get the kitten off this thread. And now u just drop it as “it’s a given that it’s about the loot and its always been about the loot”.

No it wasn’t. Take every active raider. EVERYONE. Everyone clears at least 2 times in a week, even though the loot is crappy after u already killed a boss.U are actually losing gold by spending consumables, especially now that they are more expensive than ever. If they cared about loot they would just farm fractal 40/ silverwastes and get rich or just play the TP.
You thinking it is all about the loot shows your alienation with everything that raids stand for, everything people play them for AKA fun (even people with 500+ li still clear weekly) and how a stranger u are to this topic to even have a “valid” opinion. Admitting that u just want free loot without effort was u throwing your own credibility out of the window.

IF there was any truth to what you just said, there would have never been the veritably endless and I might add, still continuing, objection to a ‘story mode’ version of the Raid, to unlock the Lore and Legendary Armor for the less hardcore crowed… but the never-ending outcry against it, makes it clear as day, It’s always been and always will be about the loot.

If there was any other reason, there would not have been the massive objection in the first place to a story mode.

However. I feel that its a pity that reality and the actions and words of your fellow raiders disagree with you, It could have been a great game if there was any real truth to your words, a game we all could have enjoyed.

You could have your fun, I could have my loot, and we all would be happy.. but.. yet that’s not the reality of things now is it, because, it’s all about the loot, and that is why, here we are.. still at it.

First of all being happy isnt about having everything u want, but being content with what u have. I am pretty happy atm even if some things are out of my reach (PvP, WvW shinies as i dont play those modes much). That’s what being happy is. Realize that u yourself are all that is limiting you from getting the loot u are so obsessed with, no Anet, no community, just you. U’ll probably have better chances butting your head against the wall than complaining in forums.

Secondly the opposing opinion to raid story mode is that: 1)it won’t have any replayability just like any other story content.Play it once the it gets forgotten in some corner. 2)Most of the “immersion” in raids comes from the actual difficulty and how engaging the fights are. A toned down version would automatically kill the immersion making the instance boring, as immersion is what you play the story for. There is a big reason for not wanting a story mode and that’s because it eventually won’t amount to anything.Also atm t4 cm’s are much better for raid practice than any “story mode” could ever be. If someone can go through 100cm smoothly, performing good and not dying then raids are gonna be pretty easy. That’s all the practice u need.

Lastly good job on pretty much dodging everything people with ACTUAL raid experience have to say about raids while u seem pretty oblivious to the whole concept. As for the loot, if u are so obsessed with it u can get it just like everyone else does. No1, not me,not Anet, not the playerbase has to hold your hand, u arent a baby after all.

STIHL.2489:

If changing the loot would kill the raid, then it was always about the loot, it’s not about the fun, or the challenge, or any of the other snake oil reasons that get passed off, it all boils down to loot, That’s how they killed dungeons, by doing nothing but modifying the loot.

So can we all just admit to it now?

That’s bs. I play for fun & loot. It’s the combination of both plus that there is content I’m able to beat and others can’t. I do and have done a lot of sports over the last 10 years and it was always about competition – being able to improve and push yourself to limits. I know that there are enough couch potatoes out there liking to log into the game and get their legendary for free. And so, Anet is a company that has or wants to serve content & rewards to everyone. Fortunately, there’s both for all fractions and yeah, ofc the lazy crowd is moaning about the harder stuff. I can live with that because it is fair.

STIHL.2489:

Feanor.2358:

STIHL.2489:

Feanor.2358:

STIHL.2489:

What can I say, I’m an honest guy, unlike the people that try to pass it off that they just want the challenge or whatever… really everyone in these discussions knew that its always been and only ever will be about the loot... nothing else maters.

Maybe now we can dispense with the facade that there is any other motive, and make the loot accessible so we can all stop talking about the raid.

If you’re after the loot, you should probably just chestfarm Silverwastes. It’s never only the loot.

So you would be fine if players could get Legendary Armor from doing a Chest Farm in Silverwastes, Didn’t think so… Its always only about the loot

Nice strawman. But still incorrect. The problem isn’t the loot, the problem is what you propose would kill raids.

If changing the loot would kill the raid, then it was always about the loot, it’s not about the fun, or the challenge, or any of the other snake oil reasons that get passed off, it all boils down to loot, That’s how they killed dungeons, by doing nothing but modifying the loot.

So can we all just admit to it now?

Nice strawman. And still incorrect. Obviously, if you remove the loot at all, pretty soon everyone will stop playing the content in question. Not because everyone only cares about the rewards. There are those who do, of course. They’ll leave immediately, which will make it harder for the remaining players to find teammates. Which will make some of them leave, making it even harder for those who don’t. Until you end up with something like dungeons, where you can find the occasional group but it’s mostly dead.

Rewards serve to sustain the playerbase. They aren’t the be-all and end-all. And in general, don’t assume everyone has the same tastes and the same drives as you do. People are different and players are people.

So to add more fuel to the fires as i watch this place burn…
Raids, or at least the real ones, are about prestige and progression.
In a traditional raid mmo, these pretty armor skins would be made into the “old patch” sets and the new patch progression grind begins again.

Eventually, with this system players can “overgear” the old raids and trivialize them. Which means the gear is easy to be gotten for pugs.

But this is gw2. Where they let the community decide who is raid ready, and who is a “casual”.
Due to high accessability, all of the people who have no right raiding, who do not know the math and dont care to.
They google some exploit-tier builds and strats, and shrug away as much personal responsibility possible as a raider.

Its all a sham. There are few raiders, but a lot of people claiming the title.

Gating is required to keep lazy people out, harsher mechanics which cannot be cheesed are required to keep those who do no research out.
Maybe anet will find a better solution, but what we have now is a travesty.

STIHL.2489:

Feanor.2358:

STIHL.2489:

Feanor.2358:

STIHL.2489:

What can I say, I’m an honest guy, unlike the people that try to pass it off that they just want the challenge or whatever… really everyone in these discussions knew that its always been and only ever will be about the loot... nothing else maters.

Maybe now we can dispense with the facade that there is any other motive, and make the loot accessible so we can all stop talking about the raid.

If you’re after the loot, you should probably just chestfarm Silverwastes. It’s never only the loot.

So you would be fine if players could get Legendary Armor from doing a Chest Farm in Silverwastes, Didn’t think so… Its always only about the loot

Nice strawman. But still incorrect. The problem isn’t the loot, the problem is what you propose would kill raids.

If changing the loot would kill the raid, then it was always about the loot, it’s not about the fun, or the challenge, or any of the other snake oil reasons that get passed off, it all boils down to loot, That’s how they killed dungeons, by doing nothing but modifying the loot.

So can we all just admit to it now?

Okay so if it is admitted that it was always about loot, then what? Why is this bad? You have yet to give proper reason as to why locking prestige behind challenge is any way shape or form bad when we have clear societal reasons that dictate that doing so benefits society as an entirety and provides people an avenue to become someone better than they are now. I can give you millions of reasons as to why its good to do this.

STIHL.2489:

TexZero.7910:

Astralporing.1957:

Feanor.2358:

It doesn’t surprise me in the slightest to see the self-righteous stance of “raids are inaccessible” reduced to simple greed. But it does amuse me to see it admitted. It’s always fun to see someone undermine his own position in a debate.

Notice, how the same applies to the raiders as well. In the end every discussion ends up being about the rewards, because it’s something both sides care the most.

Not really.

We just care that the effort we put in isn’t undervalued. There’s a difference between that and “rewards”.

Lets set things clear, No, there isn’t. Those are the exact same thing, and all these discussions come down to that one single all important thing – Loot

Nothing else matters, and we all know it too, no matter how diplomatic it is worded, or how much sugar coating tries to get slathered on to it, when all it said and down, it all boils down to dat loot,

If raids offered something other then their oh so precious loot, none of us would be having this discussion .. none of us

All the Raiders would not be here trying to saying anything and everything that could be said to justify that precious special loot being reserved to raids, even going so far as to try and make it off that it was not loot.. but.. that quickly gets revealed that.. Yah.. it’s about the Loot.

For example, if doing a raid gave a special title and just a good chunk of gold, we would not be having this discussion, and you would have your special tittle to feel appreciated, something you could put on to show everyone that you did something the filthy masses could not.. but.. we all know that would not be enough, because.. the reality is, it really boils down to Greed, it all comes down to that Loot

Spare me any other hyperbola.

I’m sure I can’t be the only one that would do raids weekly even if it had zero loot, zero titles, and zero gold. Simply the fact that I enjoy the content more than I enjoy farming gold.

I farm for $$$ IRL, no reason to value that over my enjoyment of the content in my free time.

ButterPeanut.9746:

I’m sure I can’t be the only one that would do raids weekly even if it had zero loot, zero titles, and zero gold. Simply the fact that I enjoy the content more than I enjoy farming gold.

You’d not be alone, but there would be very few of you.

Loot makes otherwise dull activities ‘fun’. And re-playing scripted encounters gets dull fast.

We’ve seen this time and time again, as far back as the ‘CoF P1. Four warriors and a mesmer’ days. The devs are constantly making changes because when players find that sweet spot you’d be hard pressed to get ’em to do much else.

the community of endgame is indeed trash, and ill i have to do is see it from the outside to know, glad i can get perfect gear without need for raid in this game

Feanor.2358:

STIHL.2489:

Feanor.2358:

STIHL.2489:

Feanor.2358:

STIHL.2489:

What can I say, I’m an honest guy, unlike the people that try to pass it off that they just want the challenge or whatever… really everyone in these discussions knew that its always been and only ever will be about the loot... nothing else maters.

Maybe now we can dispense with the facade that there is any other motive, and make the loot accessible so we can all stop talking about the raid.

If you’re after the loot, you should probably just chestfarm Silverwastes. It’s never only the loot.

So you would be fine if players could get Legendary Armor from doing a Chest Farm in Silverwastes, Didn’t think so… Its always only about the loot

…

…

Nice strawman. And still incorrect. Obviously, if you remove the loot at all, pretty soon everyone will stop playing the content in question. Not because everyone only cares about the rewards. There are those who do, of course. They’ll leave immediately, which will make it harder for the remaining players to find teammates. Which will make some of them leave, making it even harder for those who don’t. Until you end up with something like dungeons, where you can find the occasional group but it’s mostly dead.
…

Now this is much closer to the truth about loot than anything else I have seen thus far.
It matters more to some and matters less to others. But it keeps a lot of those who mostly care about loot interested in said content and makes them put in the effort needed.
They might be there for the loot but they still pull their own weight even if they are not the core of the community. This keeps the playerbase big and healthy. With a good influx of interested fresh blood besides.

It is actually the third group, the ones who care about loot but do not want to put in the effort needed, who keep complaining constantly. Those who will tell you there is nothing to instanced content but the loot and the game would be better off without those instances. Because if they can not or will not earn those rewards, why should anyone else be able to?

Murdock.6547:

They google some exploit-tier builds and strats, and shrug away as much personal responsibility possible as a raider.

What’s this nonsense about the “exploit-tier builds”? I may have missed something (though I doubt it), but I can’t remember any build exploits being just close to widespread.

If you aim at the builds which are much more effective than they should reasonably be (i.e. stuff like chrono, cPS), that’s not an exploit. That’s just ANet’s incompetence to produce reasonable balancing.