Do me a favor and let this one die
raids are meant to be the way they are.
life is unfair, can’t get a kitten villa without having the money or working for it, right.
don’t say now: but this is a game…because it still follows the same ruleset.
hell, it even has its own economy.
else we could just cather everyone and make everything free in there. everyone can have everything. Guild Soviet 2. lul
And this, my friends, is why we can not have nice things.
I agree 100%, this game was really nice, till they put in something as out of place as raids into it.
“Nice” is subjective, which makes your whole statement more or less irrelevant. There are players who stay in the game because of raids. I bet they’d use different adjectives.
That was my entire point, that “nice” is entirely subjective. Good to see it did not go to waste. And no doubt that players quit over raids being put in, which again.. makes everything subjective, just because you like it, does not mean it was a net positive for the game or the games community.
Quitting over raids being put in the game is outright stupid. The game gets new content. You don’t like it? Then don’t play it. Simple. I don’t like pvp and I don’t play it. Do you see me quitting because the game features it? No, I stick to the content I like.
And this, my friends, is why we can not have nice things.
I agree 100%, this game was really nice, till they put in something as out of place as raids into it.
Indeed. Would have deleted the game right there and then myself if I hadn’t already done so when I realized the game had PvP features.
I cannot believe some people can’t do kitten in this game unless Anet hold their hand and tell em “It’s okay, we will make it braindead difficulty so u can have shinies too, like those cool kids right there”. Its so bad, it’s amusing.
Keep up the good fight and stay away from reddit. I heard there are sharks there…..
raids are meant to be the way they are.
life is unfair, can’t get a kitten villa without having the money or working for it, right.
don’t say now: but this is a game…because it still follows the same ruleset.
hell, it even has its own economy.
else we could just cather everyone and make everything free in there. everyone can have everything. Guild Soviet 2. lul
Games with much much harder raids (and PVE in general) than GW2 have raid difficulties.
What the difficulties help do is give more casual players the experience and introduction to eventually do normal difficulty. And then normal difficulty (GW2 level) helps them get into Heroic (Harder than GW2). Then heroic possibly helps them get into Mythic (much harder than GW2).
This is one of the reasons games like WoW have dozens upon dozens of LFG listings for raids. While GW2 has possibly 2-4 on a lucky day (All asking for chrono or druid).
So if a much more hardcore game has difficulties, why can’t GW2? I mostly want this so that the raid community can be much larger – because that will be one of the positive effects.
Speaking of shines, lower difficulty = lower reward.
What the difficulties help do is give more casual players the experience and introduction to eventually do normal difficulty.
No they don’t. It’s like saying that doing T1 Observatory helps in any way or form in doing T4 CM Observatory, which is false.
This is one of the reasons games like WoW have dozens upon dozens of LFG listings for raids. While GW2 has possibly 2-4 on a lucky day (All asking for chrono or druid).
I don’t know how many listings WoW has and I don’t really care because it’s irrelevant. How many players play WoW and how many play GW2? The game with the more players will naturally have more listings that’s not rocket science. There are 39 listings on the GW2 LFG at this moment so your “2-4 on a lucky day” is once again false. I don’t know where you get your information but it’s clearly not from inside the game.
What the difficulties help do is give more casual players the experience and introduction to eventually do normal difficulty.
No they don’t. It’s like saying that doing T1 Observatory helps in any way or form in doing T4 CM Observatory, which is false.
Doing T1 Observatory helps with doing t2 Observatory, which in turn helps T3, which helps t4. And doing t4 does help in doing t4 cm, even if the CM doesn’t have quite the same mechanics.
Besides, i don’t even know why you are bringing up CMs when most people on both sides agree that completely redoing mechanics for easy mode is likely not the best idea. You should rather compare t1, t2, t3 and t4.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
And this, my friends, is why we can not have nice things.
I agree 100%, this game was really nice, till they put in something as out of place as raids into it.
“Nice” is subjective, which makes your whole statement more or less irrelevant. There are players who stay in the game because of raids. I bet they’d use different adjectives.
That was my entire point, that “nice” is entirely subjective. Good to see it did not go to waste. And no doubt that players quit over raids being put in, which again.. makes everything subjective, just because you like it, does not mean it was a net positive for the game or the games community.
Quitting over raids being put in the game is outright stupid. The game gets new content. You don’t like it? Then don’t play it. Simple. I don’t like pvp and I don’t play it. Do you see me quitting because the game features it? No, I stick to the content I like.
Quitting because raids don’t get put in would be considered equally as stupid.
But that is because everything is subjective, what you might think is stupid another may feel is valid.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
How on earth has this thread derailed into yet another “raids need an easy mode” vs “l2p freeloaders” ?
Don’t we have like six different dedicated threads for you lot of grawl to oot at each other and throw excrement?
What a circus. Complete with clowns and monkeys that do tricks.
(edited by Murdock.6547)
Doing T1 Observatory helps with doing t2 Observatory, which in turn helps T3, which helps t4. And doing t4 does help in doing t4 cm, even if the CM doesn’t have quite the same mechanics.
Only in reality it doesn’t. Oh and from one easy mode (equal to T1 difficulty no less) now you need 3 new easy modes? It’s not like T1 can prepare you for T4.
Besides, i don’t even know why you are bringing up CMs when most people on both sides agree that completely redoing mechanics for easy mode is likely not the best idea. You should rather compare t1, t2, t3 and t4.
I remember in your own posts you want to change completely the mechanics so I don’t know what you are on about here.
(edited by maddoctor.2738)
And this, my friends, is why we can not have nice things.
I agree 100%, this game was really nice, till they put in something as out of place as raids into it.
“Nice” is subjective, which makes your whole statement more or less irrelevant. There are players who stay in the game because of raids. I bet they’d use different adjectives.
That was my entire point, that “nice” is entirely subjective. Good to see it did not go to waste. And no doubt that players quit over raids being put in, which again.. makes everything subjective, just because you like it, does not mean it was a net positive for the game or the games community.
Quitting over raids being put in the game is outright stupid. The game gets new content. You don’t like it? Then don’t play it. Simple. I don’t like pvp and I don’t play it. Do you see me quitting because the game features it? No, I stick to the content I like.
Quitting because raids don’t get put in would be considered equally as stupid.
But that is because everything is subjective, what you might think is stupid another may feel is valid.
No, it won’t. Quitting because you’ve exhausted content and have nothing more to do in the game is normal. Quitting because new content got added and you can’t possibly play a game featuring a content you don’t like – that is stupid.
What the difficulties help do is give more casual players the experience and introduction to eventually do normal difficulty.
No they don’t. It’s like saying that doing T1 Observatory helps in any way or form in doing T4 CM Observatory, which is false.
Doing T1 Observatory helps with doing t2 Observatory, which in turn helps T3, which helps t4. And doing t4 does help in doing t4 cm, even if the CM doesn’t have quite the same mechanics.
Besides, i don’t even know why you are bringing up CMs when most people on both sides agree that completely redoing mechanics for easy mode is likely not the best idea. You should rather compare t1, t2, t3 and t4.
It really doesn’t. And bringing up CM is valid, because normal mode is too easy and can still be done by random groups of mostly random players doing random stuff. There’s only one thing that prepares you for 99/100 CM and that’s playing 99/100 CM. It doesn’t matter if you grind the normal mode for months or just play it once to unlock the CM. You’re still equally unprepared. Sure, you’ll know some basic mechanics. It doesn’t matter, you’ll still fail. Because the actual challenge mode has more mechanics which are tighter and more punishing. You’ll have to learn how to handle them from scratch in either case. Same applies to raids.
(edited by Feanor.2358)
Doing T1 Observatory helps with doing t2 Observatory, which in turn helps T3, which helps t4. And doing t4 does help in doing t4 cm, even if the CM doesn’t have quite the same mechanics.
Only in reality it doesn’t. Oh and from one easy mode (equal to T1 difficulty no less) now you need 3 new easy modes? It’s not like T1 can prepare you for T4.
No, i don’t need 3 easy modes. I’m just pointing out that what you said isn’t entirely correct.
And yes, running t1 first does help. Someone that have seen t1 will have easier time adapting to the t4 version than someone that went in completely blind. How much help it would be, of course, depends on the person and specific fractal, but saying that it doesn’t help in any way or form is factually wrong.
Besides, i don’t even know why you are bringing up CMs when most people on both sides agree that completely redoing mechanics for easy mode is likely not the best idea. You should rather compare t1, t2, t3 and t4.
I remember in your own posts you want to change completely the mechanics so I don’t know what you are on about here.
Which post? I did change my mind a bit on it in the last year, you know. And i think we also have a different definition of what “completely change mechanics” mean. If i remember correctly, for you even a tweak in numbers is completely changing said mechanics (because it wouldn’t be as deadly as before and could more easily be ignored/outhealed). For me, to fit that description, the changes would have to be much greater.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
And yes, running t1 first does help. Someone that have seen t1 will have easier time adapting to the t4 version than someone that went in completely blind. How much help it would be, of course, depends on the person and specific fractal, but saying that it doesn’t help in any way or form is factually wrong.
The T1 version will teach you all the wrong things about the fractal. Having the wrong knowledge is worse than having zero knowledge. And besides T1 fractal is solo content (or maybe duo?) while T4 is for full parties, T1 will never teach you how to work with your team to overcome the content. Also, some mechanics are missing in T1 to make it easier, including instabilities, fractal avengers, and also boss/encounter mechanics completely missing. Just imagine someone “training” for uncategorized fractal in T1 then switch to T2 and rush inside Old Tom’s room, causing a team wipe.
You should take a look at the LFG too, how many listings require completion of T1 fractals to join their T2 runs. If it was THAT good training then we wouldn’t have that “problem” would we?
Watching a youtube video or reading a guide on T4 fractals offers way more training value than actually playing the T1 version.
And i think we also have a different definition of what “completely change mechanics” mean.
Complete change in mechanics is changing how a mechanic works and what it requires by the players to defeat it. If defeating a mechanic in one mode requires a fundamentally different approach than the “same” mechanic in another mode, then they are different. Damage and hit points are not mechanics.
And this, my friends, is why we can not have nice things.
I agree 100%, this game was really nice, till they put in something as out of place as raids into it.
“Nice” is subjective, which makes your whole statement more or less irrelevant. There are players who stay in the game because of raids. I bet they’d use different adjectives.
That was my entire point, that “nice” is entirely subjective. Good to see it did not go to waste. And no doubt that players quit over raids being put in, which again.. makes everything subjective, just because you like it, does not mean it was a net positive for the game or the games community.
Quitting over raids being put in the game is outright stupid. The game gets new content. You don’t like it? Then don’t play it. Simple. I don’t like pvp and I don’t play it. Do you see me quitting because the game features it? No, I stick to the content I like.
Quitting because raids don’t get put in would be considered equally as stupid.
But that is because everything is subjective, what you might think is stupid another may feel is valid.
No, it won’t. Quitting because you’ve exhausted content and have nothing more to do in the game is normal. Quitting because new content got added and you can’t possibly play a game featuring a content you don’t like – that is stupid.
Quitting because the new content is not accessible to you and thus you are stonewalled in your progression in the game, is a fully legitimate and very common reason most people stop playing a game.
Quitting because you can do all the content is a totally stupid reason to quit ,as for exhausting the content, to coin a phrase from a WoW dev “it great to hear how there is nothing to do from people who have only completed 25% of the expansions objectives”
Validity is all about perspective.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Why not put in different raid difficulties so everyone can enjoy it?
They did:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/scale-raid-bosses-from-easiest-to-hardestThat isn’t raid difficulty.
Yh, idgaf how wow does raids. This is a different game, not a wow clone, if you want wow go play wow.
Yh, idgaf how wow does raids. This is a different game, not a wow clone, if you want wow go play wow.
This post perfectly encapsulates why raids never should have been put into the game to start.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Yh, idgaf how wow does raids. This is a different game, not a wow clone, if you want wow go play wow.
This post perfectly encapsulates why raids never should have been put into the game to start.
Nice blanket statement that is not true at all for so many people.
Its as if there are other reasons people do/don’t play WoW other than raids and reasons why people do/don’t play gw2 other than raids…oh wait thats exactly what the reality is.
Yh, idgaf how wow does raids. This is a different game, not a wow clone, if you want wow go play wow.
This post perfectly encapsulates why raids never should have been put into the game to start.
Nice blanket statement that is not true at all for so many people.
Its as if there are other reasons people do/don’t play WoW other than raids and reasons why people do/don’t play gw2 other than raids…oh wait thats exactly what the reality is.
If not for some desire to make this game mimic the raid culture of WoW, why would anyone want a raid put into a game that never had them to start with?
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Yh, idgaf how wow does raids. This is a different game, not a wow clone, if you want wow go play wow.
This post perfectly encapsulates why raids never should have been put into the game to start.
Nice blanket statement that is not true at all for so many people.
Its as if there are other reasons people do/don’t play WoW other than raids and reasons why people do/don’t play gw2 other than raids…oh wait thats exactly what the reality is.
If not for some desire to make this game mimic the raid culture of WoW, why would anyone want a raid put into a game that never had them to start with?
A similarly named content can be added without “mimicing raid culture”. Nowhere in gw2 is there a gear treadmill between raids.
I for one loved gw2 combat, community, play style, etc but wanted more challenging group content in the game that I already liked. Raiding alone wasn’t going to pull me to WoW, nor was not having raiding in gw2 pulling me away. I wasn’t going to WoW either way, but I sure as heck wanted more challenging group content in the game I was sticking with.
If a single addition of a type of content into a game you currently are playing drives you away from playing that game, then you clearly didn’t enjoy it as much as you thought.
Here are just a few things that this game never had “to start with”:
- Fractals
- Ascended
- Expansions
- Revenant
- Wardrobe
- Salvage All
- etc
Would you tell someone who loved Revenant that they should have gone to WoW? Or some other game where an “energy based melee class” existed?
Games will continue to change and add content. Otherwise they die and don’t make money. Saying that something shouldn’t exist because “it didn’t have it to start with” 100% invalidates your entire opinion on the subject.
(edited by ButterPeanut.9746)
If not for some desire to make this game mimic the raid culture of WoW, why would anyone want a raid put into a game that never had them to start with?
This might just be some crazy outside of the box thinking on my part, but maybe it’s because they’re really really fun?
Raiding alone wasn’t going to pull me to WoW, nor was not having raiding in gw2 pulling me away.
So what did GW2 actually gain by putting in raids, if you were going to remain with the game regardless of their existence or not?
If not for some desire to make this game mimic the raid culture of WoW, why would anyone want a raid put into a game that never had them to start with?
This might just be some crazy outside of the box thinking on my part, but maybe it’s because they’re really really fun?
So.. you would be fine if they made an easy mode raid that gave the same rewards, since they are really really fun, that should be the reward in and of itself.
Lets see how fast you can back-peddle and justify the more challenge should mean more reward, which.. you know, would invalidate the whole point that people do raids because they are “really really” fun.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
(edited by STIHL.2489)
Yh, idgaf how wow does raids. This is a different game, not a wow clone, if you want wow go play wow.
Just as people that wanted raids should have looked for games with raids instead of wanting them to be brought to gw2?
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Yh, idgaf how wow does raids. This is a different game, not a wow clone, if you want wow go play wow.
Just as people that wanted raids should have looked for games with raids instead of wanting them to be brought to gw2?
Just as people that want scaleable raid difficulty should have looked for games with scaleable raid difficulty instead of wanting them to be brought to gw2?
Raiding alone wasn’t going to pull me to WoW, nor was not having raiding in gw2 pulling me away.
So what did GW2 actually gain by putting in raids, if you were going to remain with the game regardless of their existence or not?
If not for some desire to make this game mimic the raid culture of WoW, why would anyone want a raid put into a game that never had them to start with?
This might just be some crazy outside of the box thinking on my part, but maybe it’s because they’re really really fun?
So.. you would be fine if they made an easy mode raid that gave the same rewards, since they are really really fun, that should be the reward in and of itself.
Lets see how fast you can back-peddle and justify the more challenge should mean more reward, which.. you know, would invalidate the whole point that people do raids because they are “really really” fun.
You seem to be acting on the premise that there is only one reason people do anything in life…which is obviously false.
Are there some people who only do them for the challenge? Sure! Are there some people who only do them for the legendary armor? Sure. Are there infinite combinations of percentages of “why people raid in gw2” that includes a little bit of everything? Sure!
I have no problem having scaleable rewards just like there are in every other aspect of the game. It would be foolish to give 100% exactly the same rewards in an easier version. It has no prescient in this game. T1 fractals don’t give 100% the exact same rewards at T4. Only participating in an open world meta for 5s doesn’t give exactly the same reward as filling the scale. As long as the scaling is appropriate (by ANETs definition only), then I’m totally fine with it.
In terms of remaining in the game, that is just my situation. I had just started becoming more invested in the game about 6 months before HoT, so I was getting my money’s worth either way. But its been 2 years, who knows maybe if raids weren’t there I wouldn’t be playing/buy gems/hyping the game as much.
Adding more content always benefits the game, and raids aren’t going anywhere. It is foolish to argue/discuss about “why the game shouldn’t have put raids in” That argument serves no purpose because there is no reality where ANET deletes them from the game. They’ve publicly stated they are going to continue to make them for the foreseeable future. Our opportunity for feedback is to help make them as successful as possible, because arguing they should be deleted/never existed provides no value.
I dont know, as someone coming back to the game from a long work related break. Trying to get into raids is pretty freaking impossible. Setting up a LFG most of the time has nobody joining, certainly not enough. I really want to learn it without having to pay 100 freaking gold to join a group that in the end i know im not going to learn anything from. So i would love to see some kinda learning tier that doesnt have the same kinda rewards(while still giving you something to make it worth the amount of time its going to take. Not to worried about it right now cause ill be leaving again, but it would be nice to see when i come back, because the elitsm(if thats what you want to call it) is going to grow the longer raids stay in the game.
The pvp community reminds me of what Obi-kittenenobi describes Mos Eisley as from star wars.
Yh, idgaf how wow does raids. This is a different game, not a wow clone, if you want wow go play wow.
Just as people that wanted raids should have looked for games with raids instead of wanting them to be brought to gw2?
Just as people that want scaleable raid difficulty should have looked for games with scaleable raid difficulty instead of wanting them to be brought to gw2?
No one is really looking for scaleable raid difficulty in GW2, the few that bring this really want Raids to have never happened to this game, but since they were served with this ginormous pile of steaming kitten, they are now are simply trying to make the best of it.. which is vastly different then actually wanting to do a Raid of any style or difficulty at all.
It’s something they will settle for, but they never wanted to have to deal with this kitten to start with.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Yh, idgaf how wow does raids. This is a different game, not a wow clone, if you want wow go play wow.
This post perfectly encapsulates why raids never should have been put into the game to start.
Yh, idgaf how wow does raids. This is a different game, not a wow clone, if you want wow go play wow.
Just as people that wanted raids should have looked for games with raids instead of wanting them to be brought to gw2?
Other than the fact that raids are actually supported content, and dungeons never were, what is the difference between raids and dungeons? Dungeons were not face roll easy at release. Dungeons had mechanics, we just killed bosses so fast that we could ignore them (which we do with raids: kc, xera stand still, gorse no updraft). Dungeons required teamwork (either of the panel puzzles in COE).
Is it that dungeons were not designed around healers existing? Valid criticism, if you want to argue that. However, dungeons were suppose to have a trinity too, its just that the trinity was suppose to be support, damage, and debuffing (or cc), and every class was suppose to be capable of filling each role.
I don’t care if they are called raids or not. This game promised challenging instanced content from release. Dungeons fell short of that, raids are much better, and have addressed that issue.
However, I will agree that Anet abandoned some of their core philosophy. For example, no gear grind was promised, but then expansions release stat distributions (vipers) that are more optimal than prior stats (sinister or even earlier rabid if I recal), and make exotics literally more expensive than ascended (minstrels). That’s bs and I will support you if you make a thread calling anet out for it.
Basically, tell me what about raids doesn’t fit with gw2? Is it just the name? Is all the raid backlash really over a name? Or do you want to explain to me, what mechanically raids are doing that dungeons were not trying to do?
Do you remember what this thread was all about? If not, check the OP.
Hint: it wasn’t about having or not Raids in the game, we have other threads about that.
Basically, tell me what about raids doesn’t fit with gw2? Is it just the name? Is all the raid backlash really over a name? Or do you want to explain to me, what mechanically raids are doing that dungeons were not trying to do?
There are several points on which raids are different than dungeons. In most cases those differences are not binary but a question of scale. You have already mentioned greater dependence on builds and on gear tier. Another is utilization of partywipe mechanics – in dungeons there were practically no mechanics where a mistake of a single person could wipe a whole group, and almost no situations (barring total wipe) that you couldn’t recover from. Group size is another consideration, one that magnifies the previous problem.
But the thing that pains me the most (and the thing that is directly tied to what this thread is about, maddoctor) is the fact that raids promote the elitist behaviour in ways dungeons never did. Yes, the toxic behaviour existed in dungeons too, but it could be easily ignored, because it was not supported by game mechanics. Now it’s no longer true. And not only it’s not true, but in many cases dev statements seem to suggest that Anet is encouraging the elitist feelings of the raid group
Which brings us to the last point: there’s also a difference in the attitudes of devs. The level of importance devs assign to raids (and to raiding community) is orders of magnitude greater that they’ve assigned to dungeons. It’s so great that it impacts other content as well (which never happened with dungeons). As such, it makes raid really hard to ignore if you happen to dislike them.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
But the thing that pains me the most (and the thing that is directly tied to what this thread is about, maddoctor) is the fact that raids promote the elitist behaviour in ways dungeons never did.
This “elitist behavior” you are talking about could’ve been very easily avoided if players understood basic English. I don’t think it’s the game’s job to teach that though.
And to tie this to the OP, his suggestion of making the Raids much harder would solve this “problem” really well because if the Raids were indeed much much harder then LFG listings for Raids wouldn’t exist and they’d be only done by guild teams and organized teams.
Without LFG listings, all the problems would disappear right? There would be no need to learn basic English to communicate, no kicks due to dps meters or not having the proper builds, no free-loaders, no carrying, no elitism. Or simply remove LFG listings for Raids without changing anything in the content. Bam, problem solved, no more elitism.
And this, my friends, is why we can not have nice things.
I agree 100%, this game was really nice, till they put in something as out of place as raids into it.
“Nice” is subjective, which makes your whole statement more or less irrelevant. There are players who stay in the game because of raids. I bet they’d use different adjectives.
That was my entire point, that “nice” is entirely subjective. Good to see it did not go to waste. And no doubt that players quit over raids being put in, which again.. makes everything subjective, just because you like it, does not mean it was a net positive for the game or the games community.
Quitting over raids being put in the game is outright stupid. The game gets new content. You don’t like it? Then don’t play it. Simple. I don’t like pvp and I don’t play it. Do you see me quitting because the game features it? No, I stick to the content I like.
Quitting because raids don’t get put in would be considered equally as stupid.
But that is because everything is subjective, what you might think is stupid another may feel is valid.
No, it won’t. Quitting because you’ve exhausted content and have nothing more to do in the game is normal. Quitting because new content got added and you can’t possibly play a game featuring a content you don’t like – that is stupid.
Quitting because the new content is not accessible to you and thus you are stonewalled in your progression in the game, is a fully legitimate and very common reason most people stop playing a game.
Quitting because you can do all the content is a totally stupid reason to quit ,as for exhausting the content, to coin a phrase from a WoW dev “it great to hear how there is nothing to do from people who have only completed 25% of the expansions objectives”
Validity is all about perspective.
So I should quit because PvP is inaccessible to me and thus the rest of the content in the game (which is orders of magnitude more) is somehow irrelevant? Sorry, I don’t see it. It is still a stupid reason.
There are several points on which raids are different than dungeons. In most cases those differences are not binary but a question of scale. You have already mentioned greater dependence on builds and on gear tier. Another is utilization of partywipe mechanics – in dungeons there were practically no mechanics where a mistake of a single person could wipe a whole group, and almost no situations (barring total wipe) that you couldn’t recover from.
That’s just difficulty. And like it was said, dungeons fell short of providing an actual challenge, so a higher difficulty level was needed.
But the thing that pains me the most (and the thing that is directly tied to what this thread is about, maddoctor) is the fact that raids promote the elitist behaviour in ways dungeons never did. Yes, the toxic behaviour existed in dungeons too, but it could be easily ignored, because it was not supported by game mechanics.
That’s outright false. Elitism existed in dungeons long before raids were added to the game and it had very much the same properties. You still got judged by an arbitrary measure (LI/AP). You still got judged by your knowledge of specific mechanics (bosses/bosses+skips). In the end, you still got judged by your ability to complete the content in quick and efficient manner. There’s zero difference.
Which brings us to the last point: there’s also a difference in the attitudes of devs. The level of importance devs assign to raids (and to raiding community) is orders of magnitude greater that they’ve assigned to dungeons. It’s so great that it impacts other content as well (which never happened with dungeons). As such, it makes raid really hard to ignore if you happen to dislike them.
Like, we never had meta built around dungeons? And balance changes affecting that meta? Dude, get serious…
Yes, the toxic behaviour existed in dungeons too, but it could be easily ignored, because it was not supported by game mechanics.
Honestly I can’t remember a single mechanic that requires people to be “toxic” to beat it.
Yes, the toxic behaviour existed in dungeons too, but it could be easily ignored, because it was not supported by game mechanics.
Honestly I can’t remember a single mechanic that requires people to be “toxic” to beat it.
And yet.. so many of them chose that route, Wonder why that is?
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Yes, the toxic behaviour existed in dungeons too, but it could be easily ignored, because it was not supported by game mechanics.
Honestly I can’t remember a single mechanic that requires people to be “toxic” to beat it.
And yet.. so many of them chose that route, Wonder why that is?
Could it be… gasp… because of the people?
And this, my friends, is why we can not have nice things.
I agree 100%, this game was really nice, till they put in something as out of place as raids into it.
“Nice” is subjective, which makes your whole statement more or less irrelevant. There are players who stay in the game because of raids. I bet they’d use different adjectives.
That was my entire point, that “nice” is entirely subjective. Good to see it did not go to waste. And no doubt that players quit over raids being put in, which again.. makes everything subjective, just because you like it, does not mean it was a net positive for the game or the games community.
Quitting over raids being put in the game is outright stupid. The game gets new content. You don’t like it? Then don’t play it. Simple. I don’t like pvp and I don’t play it. Do you see me quitting because the game features it? No, I stick to the content I like.
Quitting because raids don’t get put in would be considered equally as stupid.
But that is because everything is subjective, what you might think is stupid another may feel is valid.
No, it won’t. Quitting because you’ve exhausted content and have nothing more to do in the game is normal. Quitting because new content got added and you can’t possibly play a game featuring a content you don’t like – that is stupid.
Quitting because the new content is not accessible to you and thus you are stonewalled in your progression in the game, is a fully legitimate and very common reason most people stop playing a game.
Quitting because you can do all the content is a totally stupid reason to quit ,as for exhausting the content, to coin a phrase from a WoW dev “it great to hear how there is nothing to do from people who have only completed 25% of the expansions objectives”
Validity is all about perspective.
So I should quit because PvP is inaccessible to me and thus the rest of the content in the game (which is orders of magnitude more) is somehow irrelevant? Sorry, I don’t see it. It is still a stupid reason.
PvP is very accessible to you, in fact you can even have your very own arena. Care to try again?
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Yes, the toxic behaviour existed in dungeons too, but it could be easily ignored, because it was not supported by game mechanics.
Honestly I can’t remember a single mechanic that requires people to be “toxic” to beat it.
And yet.. so many of them chose that route, Wonder why that is?
Because they live in environments where shouting and aggression works in making people do what they want. And there are other people who act accordingly because they too follow these principles. If people stopped playing with toxic people, they would slowly vanish. It requires others to enable them. People allow their boss to treat them like crap because they want a paycheck. The same way they allow other players to boss them around because they want rewards. It’s complicated and sad.
Herleve – Ruins of Surmia
PvP is very accessible to you, in fact you can even have your very own arena. Care to try again?
Yes, it’s so accessible you can get roflstomped within seconds of walking in blind unless you put in effort and practice to get better. You know, just like what raids ask you to do.
Yes, the toxic behaviour existed in dungeons too, but it could be easily ignored, because it was not supported by game mechanics.
Honestly I can’t remember a single mechanic that requires people to be “toxic” to beat it.
Indeed, no mechanic requires people to be toxic. On the other hand, elitists find much more support for their behaviour in raids than in dungeons.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
PvP is very accessible to you, in fact you can even have your very own arena. Care to try again?
Same for raids. Everyone can create a raid squad, invite people and enter instance.
In exactly the same manner people have issues doing it I have issues doing PvP. So no, I don’t need to try again. The example is valid.
Yes, the toxic behaviour existed in dungeons too, but it could be easily ignored, because it was not supported by game mechanics.
Honestly I can’t remember a single mechanic that requires people to be “toxic” to beat it.
Indeed, no mechanic requires people to be toxic. On the other hand, elitists find much more support for their behaviour in raids than in dungeons.
Wrong.
Another is utilization of partywipe mechanics – in dungeons there were practically no mechanics where a mistake of a single person could wipe a whole group, and almost no situations (barring total wipe) that you couldn’t recover from. Group size is another consideration, one that magnifies the previous problem.
Raids have almost no guaranteed full party wipe mechanics either. Lets examine them:
No party wipes you can’t recover from:
Vg- you can recover from missed greens
sabetha – you can recover from one person dying to flame wall, or a missed jump. In fact there is an achievement for missing a lot of jumps.
sloth – you can changing eating patterns if someone drops volatile on the group
trio – I can’t think of anything you would call a party wipe mechanic here
matt – Nothing here wipes a party, worst scenario would be a person dropping their special action key on the group, even that can be recovered from (although you probably lose some players)
escort – single wipe mechanic, not party wipe
cairyn – no party wipe mechanics. Reflects are bad, but recoverable.
mo – bad claiming can be recovered from.
sammy – friendship mechanic fails can be recovered from.
deimos – 2nd chrono can back up tank, 2nd druid can back up hands kite.
failed mechanics you can’t recover from:
xera – missed special action key is a party wipe, and completely individual responsibility.
kc – a real party wide wipe pretty much guaranteed if one person isn’t in the correct circle.
gorseval : real party wide wipe imo, although it is hardly personal responsibility, and more so group responsibility to either destroy walls or pass dps check.
So of the 13 raids, I can see 3 guaranteed party wipes. 2 of them are individual responsibility, 1 is group. Please point out any others you want to discuss, because it hardly seems like raids are filled with situations where a ‘mistake of a single person could wipe a whole group.’
Dungeons had examples of this.
AC – a person summoning spider queen at the wrong time wiped the group, this happened frequently. Although this was certainly recoverable. Effected all 3 paths
CM – not putting exploding barrel on door properly could cause wipe, but recoverable.
COF – Not standing in circles after flame run in p1 before the final boss, could cause wipes, and this was definitely personal responsibility. But recoverable.
COE – agro the abom could lead to group wipes pretty easily.
Arah – giving lupi grubs sure didn’t help things (for the few groups that fought him legit).
So yeah, I guess there were no guaranteed wipes in dungeons that I can recall, but there were certainly instances of personal responsibility leading to wipes.
But the thing that pains me the most (and the thing that is directly tied to what this thread is about, maddoctor) is the fact that raids promote the elitist behaviour in ways dungeons never did. Yes, the toxic behaviour existed in dungeons too, but it could be easily ignored, because it was not supported by game mechanics. Now it’s no longer true. And not only it’s not true, but in many cases dev statements seem to suggest that Anet is encouraging the elitist feelings of the raid group
It is difficult for me to understand what situations your referring to. Could you please give me your definition of toxic behavior, and specific mechanics that are promoting it?
Which brings us to the last point: there’s also a difference in the attitudes of devs. The level of importance devs assign to raids (and to raiding community) is orders of magnitude greater that they’ve assigned to dungeons. It’s so great that it impacts other content as well (which never happened with dungeons). As such, it makes raid really hard to ignore if you happen to dislike them.
Are you saying that it is better when content is as neglected as dungeons were? Every actively developed piece of content in the game should have orders of magnitude more importance than dungeons. Although I will concede, Anet set a precedent with dungeons, that instanced content should be abandoned, buggy, and the laughing stock of the game. I am personally, glad they broke that precedent, and it was certainly not a precedent that was advertised with the game.
PvP is very accessible to you, in fact you can even have your very own arena. Care to try again?
Same for raids. Everyone can create a raid squad, invite people and enter instance.
PvP gives you full rewards just for trying.. raids don’t.
In exactly the same manner people have issues doing it I have issues doing PvP. So no, I don’t need to try again. The example is valid.
Raids and PvP are so far removed from each other in the way they are set up an work that the not enough similarity for there to be anything exactly alike between them, ergo, your example is totally invalid.
But, since you said you would not be trying again, I hope we are done, as I would so dearly hope you don’t make a lair of yourself.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
(edited by STIHL.2489)
PvP gives you full rewards just for trying.. raids don’t.
Ehhh its pretty close actually. PvP has reward tracks and pip progress for “trying” . You can use these to works towards ascended items, just like you can from magnetite shards on failed attempts in raids.
Then, in order to get the legendary backpack you must X number of games on multiple classes. If you continue to lose, no matter how much you play, you cannot get the legendary backpack…just like raids.
There are likely players would could get 150 LI way more quickly than they could meet the number of win requirements for the legendary backpack (actually only 25LI should be the benchmark because backpack is only 1 piece). It is likely that there are players where the reverse is true as well.
Overall, both have incremented repeatable rewards for “trying” and a legendary reward that you can only get if you “succeed”. Seems like a good comparison to me!
Raids and PvP are so far removed from each other in the way they are set up an work that the not enough similarity for there to be anything exactly alike between them, ergo, your example is totally invalid.
But, since you said you would not be trying again, I hope we are done, as I would so dearly hope you don’t make a lair of yourself.
You also are missing the point here. It really doesn’t matter about the type of content but rather the skillset/mindset/requirements of the player to succeed in the game mode.
Both game modes are built around coordinated team play. Both game modes have increased incentive/reward for becoming exceptional at the content. Both game modes have a relatively high skill barrier for entering the content successfully (as compared to other content in gw2, not other games). Both game modes teach you to improve your skill set overtime as you play the content (individually and as a group). Both game modes have prestige items associated with them.
That’s enough for now.
Yh, idgaf how wow does raids. This is a different game, not a wow clone, if you want wow go play wow.
Just as people that wanted raids should have looked for games with raids instead of wanting them to be brought to gw2?
Just as people that want scaleable raid difficulty should have looked for games with scaleable raid difficulty instead of wanting them to be brought to gw2?
No one is really looking for scaleable raid difficulty in GW2, the few that bring this really want Raids to have never happened to this game, but since they were served with this ginormous pile of steaming kitten, they are now are simply trying to make the best of it.. which is vastly different then actually wanting to do a Raid of any style or difficulty at all.
It’s something they will settle for, but they never wanted to have to deal with this kitten to start with.
This makes no sense. The people never wanted them in the first place don’t have to play them. The existence of the code in a file on their computer does absolutely nothing relative to their enjoyment of the parts of the code they previously enjoyed. Absolutely nothing.
The argument of “it takes away players from other things that I do enjoy” can be applied in the reverse as well. If not including any LS3 maps would result in an increased healthy raiding population, I would take that 100% of the time. Maybe others wouldn’t.
Rewards and other incentives also don’t exist without the content that brought them. Want Saul’s story? Sorry you may never get it if raids never existed. Want legendary armor in the game? Sorry WvW and PvP may never have gotten it if raids didn’t exist. Enjoy tech like the special action hot key? Sorry we may never have had that if raids didn’t exist. Want more dungeon/fractals/open world/etc because raids never existed? Sorry you may not have gotten that either because ANET could have just decided to release the XPAC sooner, or not employee as many people, etc.
The reality of raids never existing in HoT doesn’t exist, so there is no way to know for certain what the outcome would have been (which is why I use the word “may” everywhere)
Yes, the toxic behaviour existed in dungeons too, but it could be easily ignored, because it was not supported by game mechanics.
Honestly I can’t remember a single mechanic that requires people to be “toxic” to beat it.
Indeed, no mechanic requires people to be toxic. On the other hand, elitists find much more support for their behaviour in raids than in dungeons.
Elitists get the same result in both dungeons and raids.
Raids and PvP are so far removed from each other in the way they are set up an work that the not enough similarity for there to be anything exactly alike between them, ergo, your example is totally invalid.
But, since you said you would not be trying again, I hope we are done, as I would so dearly hope you don’t make a lair of yourself.
You also are missing the point here. It really doesn’t matter about the type of content but rather the skillset/mindset/requirements of the player to succeed in the game mode.
Both game modes are built around coordinated team play.
Both game modes have increased incentive/reward for becoming exceptional at the content. Both game modes have a relatively high skill barrier for entering the content successfully (as compared to other content in gw2, not other games). Both game modes teach you to improve your skill set overtime as you play the content (individually and as a group). Both game modes have prestige items associated with them.
That’s enough for now.
There is so much wrong with this, I have to wonder if you even PvP, and I am gonna bet no.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Raids and PvP are so far removed from each other in the way they are set up an work that the not enough similarity for there to be anything exactly alike between them, ergo, your example is totally invalid.
But, since you said you would not be trying again, I hope we are done, as I would so dearly hope you don’t make a lair of yourself.
You also are missing the point here. It really doesn’t matter about the type of content but rather the skillset/mindset/requirements of the player to succeed in the game mode.
Both game modes are built around coordinated team play.
Both game modes have increased incentive/reward for becoming exceptional at the content. Both game modes have a relatively high skill barrier for entering the content successfully (as compared to other content in gw2, not other games). Both game modes teach you to improve your skill set overtime as you play the content (individually and as a group). Both game modes have prestige items associated with them.
That’s enough for now.
There is so much wrong with this, I have to wonder if you even PvP, and I am gonna bet no.
Please elaborate? Top 100 s5-s7
Both game modes have increased incentive/reward for becoming exceptional at the content. – PVP = leaderboards, faster pip track, unique crown for monthly AT winners. Raids = quicker 150 cap. Achievements, challenge motes, titles, etc.
Both game modes have a relatively high skill barrier for entering the content successfully (as compared to other content in gw2, not other games). I don’t think i need to argue that pvp and raids are more challenging to get into than personal story.
Both game modes teach you to improve your skill set overtime as you play the content. Raids – most consistent raiding guilds/players are doing much more advanced strategies than they did at launch. I don’t see qT using updrafts on Gor anymore? PvP – you learn what matchups you can take, what targets to focus, etc.
Both game modes have prestige items associated with them. Raids – Legendary armor (prestige used loosely here). PvP – Monthly crowns. Top area access pass. Titles.
Don’t really know how you can argue with any of these as they aren’t my opinions, they are facts of the game.
(edited by ButterPeanut.9746)
[quote=6733476;ButterPeanut.9746:Rewards and other incentives also don’t exist without the content that brought them. Want Saul’s story? Sorry you may never get it if raids never existed. [/quote]
Let me see, you’re asking if people would pass on the implementing of story content, which is hidden behind a raid they will most likely never do, due to the way the raids are currently implemented, OR have that dev time put towards something else that they will do, even if means they don’t get that specific story.. the answer is painfully obvious, but, in case you are still wondering, it would be Something else
Want legendary armor in the game?
At the cost of needing to deal with having to slog tough a raid to get it? Pass.
Put the Dev time into something I will enjoy.
Sorry WvW and PvP may never have gotten it if raids didn’t exist.
They already had legendary back items in the game before raids, Legendary Armor the inevitable next step, raids or no raids. Most likely still using the Journey style to process it, just without the Raid being an annoying stonewall to players.
In that regard, Raids were a massive negative in regards to the addition of Legendary armor.
Enjoy tech like the special action hot key? Sorry we may never have had that if raids didn’t exist.
Can’t say that I do.
Want more dungeon/fractals/open world/etc because raids never existed? Sorry you may not have gotten that either because ANET could have just decided to release the XPAC sooner, or not employee as many people, etc.
They could have, but a revival of Dungeons overall would have been better for the game, given the outcry about abandoning them to stat with.
Truth be told, If they replaced the raids with Singe Player Story Mode Dungeons, and a 5 Player Explorer Mode, that could have been a revitalization of the whole Instance Based Dungeon game. They could have started a whole new ind of HoT Fractal Series, and that could have been epic.
But no.. we get.. raids.
The reality of raids never existing in HoT doesn’t exist, so there is no way to know for certain what the outcome would have been (which is why I use the word “may” everywhere)
Which means.. Raids could have been a catastrophic flop as far as the development went, and you would have no way to know, or say otherwise.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty