Guild Wars 2

The only way for reward access to be without, “consequences,” would be for all rewards to be gained without playing any content at all….But there is a consequence for that as well. Rewards that dont feel as if they have been earned dont feel rewarding (to some people).

(Some) players being upset is not necessarily an indication that Anet did anything wrong. There is nothing that they could do that wont upset some people. For example, adding an easy mode or difficulty settings for raids would upset some people. By the logic used by some posters here that means that adding these options would be doing someting wrong.

And, by the way, the word, “fault,” is being misused here.

Answer at title question: No, not at all.

Ohoni.6057:

It is, but it’s not a panacea. The LFG tool alone will do nothing whatsoever to address many of the concerns raised about raids in their current form. It will only improve things for the niche of a niche of players who mostly like how raids are now, but can’t figure out how to use the existing LFG tool to find exactly the group they need.

It would increase the accessibility and approachability by so much. When you say “many of the concerns raised about raids” you mean specifically by you…right? Notice how Anet is designing a new LFG tool for raiding… but not an easy-mode raid.

Ohoni.6057:

No they aren’t, because they lack any actual control. The most they can do is express feedback as to what they want or do not want, but ultimately ANet decided what goes in and what doesn’t. Because they hold onto the power to make the final call, they also bare full responsibility for the outcome.

Or… you know… if the player wants the reward that comes with raiding they could… oh I don’t know… learn how to optimize their character and effectively raid? I hope you realize you’ve spent at least 20x the time on these forums discussing an “easy-mode” than it took my raid team to nearly clear salvation pass. Hummmm…zzzzz

Ohoni.6057:

No, but you always have to consider everyone, and balance good with bad across the entire playerbase. You can never, as you keep insisting they should, “design content only for a small niche and everyone outside that niche just needs to deal with it.” Any time they choose to address a small niche, they have to do so in a way that provides minimal disruption to those outside that niche. The raids failed at this, so far at least.

It’s impossible to consider everyone. What Anet can do, as a business, is consider the sales. Raids sell. Anet implemented raids. This “small niche” you keep bringing up in every post is a theory that is made up by you with no supporting basis. Anet is not dumb. Only Anet knows the numbers. It’s realllllly simple when you think about it.

Ohoni.6057:

Then I’m afraid there’s nothing I can do to help you.

Just going to put this out there… I don’t think the guy who is content with the content is asking for help. Content for content. Haha.

I get what you’re saying though. Lessen the value of the reward that actual raiders practically slave over. The logic is definitely there.

Seriously though. I’m going to say this with respectful intentions. You can continue spending countless hours here, or you can go through these guides and do the research. It’s your time mane. Nothing would make me happier on these forums than seeing you succeed in this game. Raiding WILL become a lot more accessible once a proper LFG panel is implemented.

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Raid
http://dulfy.net/2015/11/20/gw2-vale-guardian-raid-boss-guide/
http://dulfy.net/2015/11/25/gw2-gorseval-the-multifarious-raid-boss-guide/
http://dulfy.net/2015/11/30/gw2-sabetha-the-saboteur-raid-boss-guide/
http://dulfy.net/2016/03/15/gw2-slothasor-salvation-pass-raid-guide/
http://dulfy.net/2016/03/16/gw2-matthias-gabrel-salvation-pass-raid-guide/

Ohoni.6057:

I’ve been very vocal about raids. I don’t think they were a bad idea, but I do think they could have been better implemented with GW2’s players in mind. I think that they do what they do very well, but they are very exclusionary to a lot of the players who are not up for that level of intense gameplay, and now some rather significant story elements are tied into them.

I am by no means arguing that they should “nerf” the existing raids, but I do think they should offer an alternate raiding experience for less coordinated groups, one with much lower chance of failure in exchange for reduced levels of reward. It should not take any significant amount of developer time to implement, leveraging existing methods of players choosing difficulty, and keeping all the existing content, just with the numbers tweaked to make it more on par with non-raid content in terms of difficulty.

Basically all they’d need to change is to tone down the damage of OHKO attacks to be a more moderate threat, and tone down the boss HP a bit to require less sustained DPS. Again, this would only be an optional mode, so people who like the raids in their current form could continue to play them like that. They have no reasonable grounds for complaint.

i would like to agree but one possible problem is that making a difficulty setting could separate the player base, which would make finding a group a lot harder.

Stand The Wall.6987:

i would like to agree but one possible problem is that making a difficulty setting could separate the player base, which would make finding a group a lot harder.

I actually believe the opposite. It would give people who refuse to (practice/look up guides/optimally play) a sort of “blind sense” of the raid. The main problem is that it would lessen the value of raiding and make it “cheap” for those who do the work. Take any currency. Hand that currency out to everyone. Now it isn’t worth much.

Yes, I do believe raid exclusive rewards are a bad thing for guild wars 2.
This game started as a game advertised to casual players, where you could play even abit and never miss out on anything.
Then, we started getting people with an awful lot of free time at their disposal, claiming encounters were too easy, since they would spend hours upon hours repeating the same encounters. Well guess what Einstein, if a baby can learn how to speak in a couple of months, If even animals learn how to act, and behave simply due to repetitive patterns, then of course someone will find any kind of challenge in an online game trivial if they practice it that much.
Now, the same vocal minority has been more and more loud requesting harder content for their own amusement, fair enough, the developers agreed and granted them that request. Problem was, they then wanted exclusive skins and rewards, in a game whose entire point is dressing up your character and customizing it, simply because, they thought their way of having fun was more important than that of others.
I do not mind raids as they are for people who want harder content, what I do mind however is when they try to make everyone else like them, spend hours upon hours, changing their real life schedule to meet the requirements in a game, just because they wanted to change a casual game into yet another full time occupation.

My suggestion would be to make 2 game modes for raids, keeping the same rewards for both, but, having the “hard mode” ( the one we have now) give much more gold, unlike the easy one which would yield no gold.
Hardcores would still earn 15-30-50 whatever amount of gold per successful completion, which given their speedrun nature would be pretty fast and very worth their time, while the casual folks would still be able to experience easier versions, without missing on any exclusive skins, but without making any gold in the process either.
People are complaining because, the core audience of this game, has always been casual players, they complain because they still care…. however nothing lasts forever and once they are done caring, they will move on, leaving behind the hardcore players, a lot of toxic players and some “free to play” newcomers who’d fill in the gap. Then , those would simply leave too, since they’d be greeted by the toxic hardcore players, who, in turn would keep saying content is not hard enough, and keep requesting more and more “challenge” at an unsustainable rate for the company, leaving the same hardcore ones, dissatisfied as well.
Don’t forget, the first raid wing took a while to be beaten, while this one (2nd) was cleared in the first 2 days…

And before anyone else out there starts accusing me of laziness as it’s custom on these forums ( despite this being a game, which everyone should be able to enjoy how they like), I do have the eternal title, and cleared the first wing.
I did not enjoy those timed schedules, and I do not believe they fit this game at all, hence my feedback on this thread.
Have a nice day and thanks for reading.

The only way for reward access to be without, “consequences,” would be for all rewards to be gained without playing any content at all….But there is a consequence for that as well. Rewards that dont feel as if they have been earned dont feel rewarding (to some people).

Nobody is asking for that.

You should have to work to earn rewards, but in a game with so many different things to be doing, for which any given player would have their own most and least favorite activities, there needs to be flexibility in which activities you can do to progress towards various rewards. Any time the game requires that you play a single mode for more than a few hours to unlock a given item, it is providing a negative play experience for those players who do not enjoy that activity.

(Some) players being upset is not necessarily an indication that Anet did anything wrong. There is nothing that they could do that wont upset some people.

Somewhat true, which is why the more important element is the balance between those happy about a change and those upset by it, but even so, it’s possible in many cases to make a change that would leave everyone happy about some aspects of it. For example, if they added easy mode raids, those who can’t reasonably do current raids would have a new mode to enjoy and progress towards those rewards, while those who currently do hard mode raids would over time have more people to play with, and more resources put into making new raids, and the only ones who would feel sour about it would be those who enjoy other people’s misfortune.

It would increase the accessibility and approachability by so much. When you say “many of the concerns raised about raids” you mean specifically by you…right? Notice how Anet is designing a new LFG tool for raiding… but not an easy-mode raid.

We don’t know what the new LFG will contain, but if it’s mostly about raiding then it will be a huge waste of time. The LFG tool primarily needs an overhaul to correct issues with open world content and basic usability, any benefit to raiding is purely a side effect, although something focused on around here for obvious reasons. It would do almost nothing to help the state of raiding, because finding a group in raiding is not an issue, actually being able to succeed with that group is the issue. If you’re already in a position to succeed with raiding, then you can find a group to do it with you easily enough.

Or… you know… if the player wants the reward that comes with raiding they could… oh I don’t know… learn how to optimize their character and effectively raid?

Duh, but we’re discussing an alternative to that for people who have no interest in what that would entail.

I hope you realize you’ve spent at least 20x the time on these forums discussing an “easy-mode” than it took my raid team to nearly clear salvation pass.

And that’s the issue we’d like to balance out.

i would like to agree but one possible problem is that making a difficulty setting could separate the player base, which would make finding a group a lot harder.

There are 100 different difficulty levels for Fractals, people get by. There are also three paths to every dungeon, of varying difficulties, and there are different difficulty levels to various Story Mode missions, and yet people get by. I really don’t think that “LFG easy mode raid” will throw too many people off course, especially after they implement the improved LFG UI.

Take any currency. Hand that currency out to everyone. Now it isn’t worth much.

Yeah, any time someone hands me a hundred dollar bill I’m like “pssht, you can keep that, I’ve got plenty of one dollar bills and they’re pretty much the same thing.”

Just because people can beat the raid on easy mode, that does not take any prestige away from those who can beat it on hard mode, for whatever that’s worth in the first place.

The problem is that Anet took an inclusive stance with every other element of the game. They didn’t care what the other AAA MMOs were doing – they cared about all of their players.

With raids, all they have done is copy/paste the same old tired model used by other MMOs. Anet is better than this and should have tapped into that same spirit of innovation and anti-status quo to make raids unique to the GW2 model. While the fight mechanics are interesting, the implementation of raids in GW2 is a disappointment and (YES) enough to say that ANET has lost its focus. That may seem dramatic and alarmist, but the fact is that many of the players who enjoyed the game in the months following the launch are now shaking their heads wondering what the hell is going on with this game.

Blaeys.3102:

The problem is that Anet took an inclusive stance with every other element of the game. They didn’t care what the other AAA MMOs were doing – they cared about all of their players.

With raids, all they have done is copy/paste the same old tired model used by other MMOs. Anet is better than this and should have tapped into that same spirit of innovation and anti-status quo to make raids unique to the GW2 model. While the fight mechanics are interesting, the implementation of raids in GW2 is a disappointment and (YES) enough to say that ANET has lost its focus. That may seem dramatic and alarmist, but the fact is that many of the players who enjoyed the game in the months following the launch are now shaking their heads wondering what the hell is going on with this game.

Very well said.

Of course is a good idea, is pretty much the only reason I still keep an eye on the game. I am more surprised this point is still being talked about ha.

Blaeys.3102:

The problem is that Anet took an inclusive stance with every other element of the game. They didn’t care what the other AAA MMOs were doing – they cared about all of their players.

With raids, all they have done is copy/paste the same old tired model used by other MMOs. Anet is better than this and should have tapped into that same spirit of innovation and anti-status quo to make raids unique to the GW2 model. While the fight mechanics are interesting, the implementation of raids in GW2 is a disappointment and (YES) enough to say that ANET has lost its focus. That may seem dramatic and alarmist, but the fact is that many of the players who enjoyed the game in the months following the launch are now shaking their heads wondering what the hell is going on with this game.

I have to agree with you. The more I look at this. It’s not the raid itself that is the problem, anymore then fractal level 100 is a issue with the game. Yes there many people that can’t do Fractal 100, just as there are many people that can’t do the raid.

However, no one has to do Fractal Level 100 to get anything they want out of the game. You want the Legendary back Item, highest level you need to do is 28, with requires 22 Agony, which can be covered very easy by trinkets and versatile infusions.

So, requiring this raid to enjoy the story and make legendary armor, was a bit of a shock, that Anet would be that exclusive. Where in the past, anything could be obtained by persistence and perseverance.

Legendary Weapons are still legendary, in the sense they still symbolize either a thousand gold straight up, or all the parts and pieces needed to make them. And both of those take a serious investment in the game.

So in that regard, while maybe raids are what some players need to scratch and itch they have, locking items and story progression behind it, was the actual bad idea.

Ohoni.6057:

There are 100 different difficulty levels for Fractals, people get by. There are also three paths to every dungeon, of varying difficulties, and there are different difficulty levels to various Story Mode missions, and yet people get by. I really don’t think that “LFG easy mode raid” will throw too many people off course, especially after they implement the improved LFG UI.

lol, saying there are 100 different difficulty levels for fractals is like referring to a staircase by how many stairs it has. point taken tho.

Today i tried writing -apem in the party chat during raid…….. it didnt work.

lol, saying there are 100 different difficulty levels for fractals is like referring to a staircase by how many stairs it has. point taken tho.

Yeah, I mean, it’s not like I think raids should have 100 levels, but even if Fractals JUST included Fractal 100 and Fractal 25, it would present two significantly different difficulty experiences. Two levels, that’s all raids need.

Ohoni.6057:

lol, saying there are 100 different difficulty levels for fractals is like referring to a staircase by how many stairs it has. point taken tho.

Yeah, I mean, it’s not like I think raids should have 100 levels, but even if Fractals JUST included Fractal 100 and Fractal 25, it would present two significantly different difficulty experiences. Two levels, that’s all raids need.

At the cost of devaluing raiding itself. No thanks. You ignored the last part of my reply. Perhaps, ask yourself why so many are successful.

At the cost of devaluing raiding itself.

IF this would devalue raiding in any way, then raiding would deserve a little devaluing. I don’t see how it does though.

You ignored the last part of my reply. Perhaps, ask yourself why so many are successful.

Why so many what are successful?

Ohoni.6057:

We don’t know what the new LFG will contain, but if it’s mostly about raiding then it will be a huge waste of time. The LFG tool primarily needs an overhaul to correct issues with open world content and basic usability, any benefit to raiding is purely a side effect, although something focused on around here for obvious reasons. It would do almost nothing to help the state of raiding, because finding a group in raiding is not an issue, actually being able to succeed with that group is the issue. If you’re already in a position to succeed with raiding, then you can find a group to do it with you easily enough.

Here’s the thing. We DO know what the new LFG will contain. It will contain a seperate LFG tab for raiding… Raiding needs it’s own organized tab so you don’t see people scattered across the open world LFG. It will help infinitely because it will increase participation and accessibility.

Ohoni.6057:

Duh, but we’re discussing an alternative to that for people who have no interest in what that would entail.

If you have no interest in raiding then you have no interest in the reward.

Ohoni.6057:

And that’s the issue we’d like to balance out.

You misunderstand me. You’ve spent what? 50-60 hours so far on these forums replying to EVERYONE who is arguing with you. I’ve spent about 18 hours in Salvation Pass to clear sloth to Matthais. Well we got Matthais to 5% after some hard work. Do you see what I’m getting at here?

Ohoni.6057:

Yeah, any time someone hands me a hundred dollar bill I’m like “pssht, you can keep that, I’ve got plenty of one dollar bills and they’re pretty much the same thing.”

No, this is not what I’m saying at all. Let’s say they create the $100. You are the only person on the planet to have it. It’s pretty valuable eh? Now, they hand the dollar bill to everyone on the planet with little effort. Oh look, your $100 is now valueless. It’s a really simple thought process man.

Ohoni.6057:

Just because people can beat the raid on easy mode, that does not take any prestige away from those who can beat it on hard mode, for whatever that’s worth in the first place.

Yes it does. I explained above. Why do you think legendary gear is worth anything? Why do you think anything in this game is worth anything? It’s based off it’s value which is determined by availability and challenge to get.

Ohoni.6057:

IF this would devalue raiding in any way, then raiding would deserve a little devaluing. I don’t see how it does though.

It’s simple economics man.

Ohoni.6057:

Why so many what are successful?

Raiders……zzzzz

Here’s the thing. We DO know what the new LFG will contain. It will contain a seperate LFG tab for raiding… Raiding needs it’s own organized tab so you don’t see people scattered across the open world LFG. It will help infinitely because it will increase participation and accessibility.

Eh, again, that’s nice, but I don’t think the existing LFG is so bad that it will make a significant difference in practical terms. It’ll make things more convenient, less of a hassle, that’s all good, but I don’t think it’ll actually result in more successful raiding runs. People who are motivated enough to raid are motivated enough to use the existing LFG system for that purpose. People who can’t be bothered to use the existing LFG to raid, but would use the new system to find groups easier, likely wouldn’t be all that useful in the hard raids themselves.

I’m not arguing that they shouldn’t update the LFG, I just don’t get this irrational expectation that it will change everything when they release it.

If you have no interest in raiding then you have no interest in the reward.

That does not make any sense whatsoever. It’s like saying “if you have no interest in cleaning sewers, you have no interest in money.”

You misunderstand me. You’ve spent what? 50-60 hours so far on these forums replying to EVERYONE who is arguing with you. I’ve spent about 18 hours in Salvation Pass to clear sloth to Matthais. Well we got Matthais to 5% after some hard work. Do you see what I’m getting at here?

That I’ve put in more work than you, and thus by your own standards deserve far greater rewards?

No, this is not what I’m saying at all. Let’s say they create the $100. You are the only person on the planet to have it. It’s pretty valuable eh? Now, they hand the dollar bill to everyone on the planet with little effort. Oh look, your $100 is now valueless. It’s a really simple thought process man.

No, I get what you’re saying, I just don’t agree that it should matter. Allowing people to clear an easy mode version of a raid does not devalue the accomplishment of those who clear it on hard mode, that’s a completely different accomplishment. It’s like back in the old days of arcade high scores, if someone gets a 100K score, that isn’t devalued by someone else putting their quarter in and getting a 2K score.

If you mean that the loot itself becomes devalued by more people being able to acquire it, that’s true too, but the thing is, the joy you may lose from your item having less value is offset by the joy other people gain by having the item they want to have. If it devalues the item in some people’s minds, then that is a small price to pay.

Why do you think legendary gear is worth anything?

Because it can stat-swap and generally looks pretty cool. It has nothing to do with rarity, otherwise the Legendary weapons that belong to generally weak weapons, or with “ugly” skins would have equal or more value than popular ones like Twilight.

And again, even in my proposals, these items would take time and effort to complete, I would intend them to take several times as long to earn via easy mode, but they should be achievable.

Raiders……zzzzz

I think you understand what point you’re trying to make here, but I do not.

Ohoni.6057:

Eh, again, that’s nice, but I don’t think the existing LFG is so bad that it will make a significant difference in practical terms. It’ll make things more convenient, less of a hassle, that’s all good, but I don’t think it’ll actually result in more successful raiding runs.

It’s actually pretty bad, just from the point of view that a raid cannot easily refill when raiders leave because raid advertising only goes one way- only people looking for a raid can advertise, not the raid itself. A fix in this direction could be a drastic improvement.

Ohoni.6057:

People who are motivated enough to raid are motivated enough to use the existing LFG system for that purpose. People who can’t be bothered to use the existing LFG to raid, but would use the new system to find groups easier, likely wouldn’t be all that useful in the hard raids themselves.

Not necessarily. Again, this feeds back into the first point; raids cannot advertise, individual puggers can. Someone may not be willing to advertise themselves but they would be willing to respond to advertisements.

This also isn’t quite how PUGs work in practice. A lot of the time in a raiding environment PUG groups are done not for the sake of clearing content (though they are) but they’re put out to recruit members. 8-man guild group can clear the content fine so they put up the LFG to try to find 2 more on bosses that are hard to screw up like VG, if they get any gems they recruit them. This strategy which seems kinda rough in the current system gets a hell of a lot of breathing room with a new system.

It also ignores how PUGgers effectively use the system which is to join groups purely to get experience. You’re solely fixated on “did they kill the boss” because for some reason you think it’s only worth doing if you win. But a PUG player might gain valuable experience by doing the fight or valuable advice from another raid member, which is all an experience which is lost when they can just resort to easy mode.

Also the raids aren’t that hard. VG is basically tank positioning 101 and basic checks for the rest of the raid.

It’s actually pretty bad, just from the point of view that a raid cannot easily refill when raiders leave because raid advertising only goes one way- only people looking for a raid can advertise, not the raid itself. A fix in this direction could be a drastic improvement.

I’m not sure about that. Being able to advertise a raid might help you fill an empty slot faster, but it’d be very luck of the draw who you get, whereas the current system allows you to be slightly more discerning. It might end up being faster, but leading to less successful parties.

Not necessarily. Again, this feeds back into the first point; raids cannot advertise, individual puggers can. Someone may not be willing to advertise themselves but they would be willing to respond to advertisements.

Btw, I haven’t tried this myself for obvious reasons, but wouldn’t it be possible for one or more members of the raid party to leave that party, advertise on LFG, acquire the needed extra people, and then they all rejoin the raid party? What is the process for getting knocked out of a raid for not being in the party?

Again though, it’s not that I don’t see the benefits of an LFG change or think that it’s not worth it, I just don’t think it’ll cause any massive sea-change in raider populations. I think it’ll mostly be the same people doing it, just having a slightly more convenient time of it. The people who don’t raid at all still likely won’t, and it’d be nice for them to have an option to solve their issues with the existing raids.

But a PUG player might gain valuable experience by doing the fight or valuable advice from another raid member, which is all an experience which is lost when they can just resort to easy mode.

It’s entirely up to the player which he values more. Personally, I prefer to get experience while winning, but those that prefer to gain experience while failing will always have that option available to them.

Also the raids aren’t that hard. VG is basically tank positioning 101 and basic checks for the rest of the raid.

So I hear.

First raid was a good experiment, giving more variety to the game. But second raid will be a waste of resources if they going to make it prior to WvW upgrade, LS3, fractal update and next PvP major balance patch.

Rednik.3809:

First raid was a good experiment, giving more variety to the game. But second raid will be a waste of resources if they going to make it prior to WvW upgrade, LS3, fractal update and next PvP major balance patch.

Raid team is not in charge of WvW, LS3 or PvP.

Miku Lawrence.6329:

Raid team is not in charge of WvW, LS3 or PvP.

Other teams could use more developers to finish their job. This is pretty common practice for anet.

Rednik.3809:

Miku Lawrence.6329:

Raid team is not in charge of WvW, LS3 or PvP.

Other teams could use more developers to finish their job. This is pretty common practice for anet.

Go read the recent AMA on Reddit.

@Ohani

The LFG panel will make a difference because THERE ISNT ONE. As for the reward, you have no interest in raiding so you have no interest in the reward. You have it backwards. If you had interest in the reward you would raid. As for putting in more work than me? Sorry, 1 hour on VG, 1 hour on Gors, and 60 hours in these forums is not more work than me big guy.

My point is you are trying to devalue the work that people who raid put in. It’s real simple. I get you’re looking out for your own personal interests, and who cares about people who raid…

Content exclusive rewards are used as trohpies indicating success in that content. Trophies exist to provide some element of prestige or to act as a symbol of the accomplishment, without providing any form of advantage in the activities where they are earned. If the trophy can be gained without success in the content in question, such as by playing in a reduced difficulty mode, then the reward no longer fulfills its intended purpose. Some times a reward can be earned in different activities, but the trophy aspect can be preserved, intheory, by restricting the alternate methods of acquisition to activities of similar difficulty. Personally I would prefer that different trophies be used in such circumstances (dungeon armor from PvP reward tracks for example).

@Ashen, maybe Ohani

I feel I should expand on what I view is devaluing to raiding. I don’t care about legendary armor. I don’t care if it’s offered in other aspects of the game. I care about the kills, the achievements, and the raid exclusive rewards that are currently out. This is why I disagree with an “easy-mode” unless all it has to offer is a seperate 1 point achievement stating you can Zerg just fine and maybe 5 shards a kill. I still wouldn’t like this due to the Dev resources being consumed… But still.

If all people such as Ohani want is the armor, then perhaps it should, and will be offered in other portions of the game. Perhaps it will require ALL aspects of the game. It’s all speculation.

To be clear, I have no interest in legendary armor myself. I do like the idea of distinct rewards acting as trophies for distinct activities. Grinding/Gathering mats to craft your rewards devalues anything the reward might have meant to me had it been a matter of overcoming a challenge. I suppose staving off boredom or burnout while engaging in repetitive mindless drudgery is a form of challenge, but not oe that lends itself to a sense of accomplishment appropriate to a trophy for me. “Hey, I managed to not log off for a long time,” is not an accomplishment to me.

If I had my druthers, the top rewards would be more like HA emotes in GW1. Cool looking, kind of exciting, but not tied to your character’s normal appearance.

As for the reward, you have no interest in raiding so you have no interest in the reward.

Again, this is a complete nonsense statement. The two have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

Sorry, 1 hour on VG, 1 hour on Gors, and 60 hours in these forums is not more work than me big guy.

So you’ve spent 63 hours raiding then?

My point is you are trying to devalue the work that people who raid put in. It’s real simple. I get you’re looking out for your own personal interests, and who cares about people who raid…

If what I’m suggesting would devalue anything for raiders, then raiders need to have their stuff devalued a bit. It’s better for the game as a whole. I know you’re looking out for your own personal interests, and who cares about people who don’t currently raid, but this feature could be a lot bigger than it is.

Trophies exist to provide some element of prestige or to act as a symbol of the accomplishment, without providing any form of advantage in the activities where they are earned. If the trophy can be gained without success in the content in question, such as by playing in a reduced difficulty mode, then the reward no longer fulfills its intended purpose.

I get the idea of trophies, but an armor skin is not a trophy, a TROPHY is a trophy. A trophy has no value other than being a trophy, it is not a practical item, or even a cosmetic one. Anything that conveys a mechanical or cosmetic benefit cannot be classified as “a trophy.” The game already has actual trophies, guild hall trophies based on raid boss kills. If they want more trophies, they can do that, adding items like the Flames of Kryta that you can have in your inventory and take out as a bundle to show off to people how large your digital member is, but weapon and armor skins should not be used to fill that role.

I care about the kills, the achievements, and the raid exclusive rewards that are currently out.

Killing Sabetha in easy mode does not inherently devalue the experience of anyone who has killed her in hard mode, because it is obviously a reduced experience, and if those people could beat her on hard mode, they would have. Nobody will beat her on easy mode and think “I’m as good at this as Avarice is!” There are already plenty of content elements in this game that offer several levels of difficulty, and the lower rungs do not devalue the higher.

As for achievements, easy mode definitely should never interact with the boss/combat achievements already in the game. You should not be able to get the "Fire Extinguisher " achievement for beating Sabetha in easy mode, for example. They could perhaps leave in the collection achievements though. I don’t think it would be necessary for them to add a separate set of “easy mode” specific achievements, but they could if they wanted to. Still, acquiring an achievement in easy mode would not devalue achieving the same in hard mode.

As for loot, you should not be able to earn trophies in easy (unless they made unique, less impressive ones), or titles, but anything that impacts the visual of the character, such as weapon or armor skins, minis, etc., should be available, they should just take longer to earn this way.

Swagger.1459:

Rednik.3809:

Miku Lawrence.6329:

Raid team is not in charge of WvW, LS3 or PvP.

Other teams could use more developers to finish their job. This is pretty common practice for anet.

Go read the recent AMA on Reddit.

I did, and they clearly said that most of the stuff they do is not a result of a single team’s work, but of a cooperation of many teams. Yes, instead of raiding team drawing on other teams’ resources and manpower to do raids, it might be good to have it the other way around for a change.

Ohoni.6057:

Again, this is a complete nonsense statement. The two have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

Umm, the reward is WHY you want an easy-mode. You want the rewards raiding brings and the reward of downing content others worked towards. Your whole central argument centers around legendary armor. You think an easy-mode will fix this. I think not gating content such as that behind raiding would fix it.

Ohoni.6057:

So you’ve spent 63 hours raiding then?

By this logic you are equating an hour of forum time to an hour of raiding. You failed to see the initial point.

Ohoni.6057:

If what I’m suggesting would devalue anything for raiders, then raiders need to have their stuff devalued a bit. It’s better for the game as a whole. I know you’re looking out for your own personal interests, and who cares about people who don’t currently raid, but this feature could be a lot bigger than it is.

What you ARE saying WILL devaluate raiding. I, and pretty much everyone else you’ve came across so far pretty much agrees with this. I’ve had two people mail me in game thanking me for what I’m saying to you… literally. The feature is new and it does not need to be directed into this easy-mode, lazy, degrading/devaluating nonsense.

Umm, the reward is WHY you want an easy-mode. You want the rewards raiding brings and the reward of downing content others worked towards. Your whole central argument centers around legendary armor. You think an easy-mode will fix this. I think not gating content such as that behind raiding would fix it.

Again, rewards are a part of why I want easy raids, and also obviously a part of why you like hard mode raids, though they are not the only reason I want easy mode raids, however much you want to insist that they are. But that has nothing to do with your inaccurate statement, " you have no interest in raiding so you have no interest in the reward" just makes zero sense.

They are two separate factors, and you can have no interest in raiding and no interest in the rewards, or you can have definite interest in raiding and definite interest in the rewards, but you can also have definite interest in raiding and no interest in the rewards, OR no interest in raiding and definite interest in the rewards. They are completely separate axis.

Now opening up the rewards to other types of content would certainly reduce the need for easy mode raids, but I’d still like to see them done and that they would be a positive factor for the game, rewards or not.

By this logic you are equating an hour of forum time to an hour of raiding. You failed to see the initial point.

Why not? What would make an hour of raiding time count less than an hour of forum time? They’re both time, all that matters is that everyone is enjoying themselves.

What you ARE saying WILL devaluate raiding. I, and pretty much everyone else you’ve came across so far pretty much agrees with this.

And again, if this is true, then it seems raiding could stand to have some air taken out of it. If raiding is “too good” to have “lessers” crawling all over it then it can stand to be taken down a peg or two. Work with the community, not above it.

@Ohani, I’m too lazy to quote so take each paragraph as a reply to what you said.

Okay, you managed to type out three paragraphs without stating WHY you want to raid. It’s not the content. You want to nerf the content so it is no longer “content.” There is plenty of content in this game that is “zerg” worthy. It’s not the reward. You stated this. You could argue story but I could argue you to look it up on the internet if you actually refuse to raid. So… what is it then? You don’t need to type out a lot for this. You’re not a politician. You can just outright answer the question.

Forum time does not equal raiding time. Why you are arguing this… I have no idea. Do you think you’re getting better at raiding by sitting on here? Do you think this will help you?

Here’s the problem, you CAN raid! Trust me, even you have the potential to clear this content. You are simply not APPLYING yourself. You do not what to spend the TIME. If your raid team can’t do it? Find another. If you can’t do it? Figure out why. If pugs are not accepting you? Figure out why. If your group is struggling with a mechanic? Practice! You have no evidence that a significant portion of the community that applies themselves to raiding is (or is not) successful. Neither do I. This is why it is pointless to make a point for, or against, this.

The whole base of your argument that “lessers” take up the majority of the community is all speculation based off game forums. Here’s what I can tell you. A massive amount more of players come to these forums to complain than to say “I’m content with this content” and this number is even more insignificant to the number of players that actually use these forums. Everything you base your argument off of is speculation.

They were the best thing Anet has added, aside from the Elite specs.

Avarice.2791:

@Ohani, I’m too lazy to quote so take each paragraph as a reply to what you said.

Okay, you managed to type out three paragraphs without stating WHY you want to raid.

It’s pretty simple. They want to be able to engage and continue the Living Story and quest after Legendary Armor.

It’s not the raid itself that is attractive, it’s the fact that “World Based” things are gated by it.

If they put in a Story Mode, that allowed someone to enjoy the Story, and get whatever collectible they needed for Legendary Armor, I think that would resolve this entire issue.

STIHL.2489:

It’s pretty simple. They want to be able to engage and continue the Living Story and quest after Legendary Armor.

It’s not the raid itself that is attractive, it’s the fact that “World Based” things are gated by it.

If they put in a Story Mode, that allowed someone to enjoy the Story, and get whatever collectible they needed for Legendary Armor, I think that would resolve this entire issue.

So… it’s the reward to you. Like I said, I do not think it is right to gate a specific part of a legendary past anything that is challenging such as Sab/Matthais. It’s all speculation though. Who knows, it may be entirely shard based which means you could essentially get the armor by wiping. You do get a significant amount of shards after so many wipes. After my first night of VG progression without any kills I think I remembered having 40-something shards.

As for story. Correct me if I’m wrong but raid lore has nothing to do with living story. Isn’t it simply a side-story that is hardly understandable without additional reading. (Unless you’re hardcore about that lore.)

I’m a bit confused about what you’re saying at the end there. Are you simply saying that the portion of precursor that is gated behind raids should have multiple ways to be gained? If that is so, then you and I are in a partial-agreement. If it’s gated simply behind shards then I do not think this is too much to ask from the general community. Why? Because you do not even have to clear content to get magnetite shards.

If you want this legendary armor then you have to raid to work for it.

There’s no easy mode PvP for the legendary backpiece, I don’t see why there should be an easy mode raid for the legendary armor.

Avarice.2791:

STIHL.2489:

It’s pretty simple. They want to be able to engage and continue the Living Story and quest after Legendary Armor.

It’s not the raid itself that is attractive, it’s the fact that “World Based” things are gated by it.

If they put in a Story Mode, that allowed someone to enjoy the Story, and get whatever collectible they needed for Legendary Armor, I think that would resolve this entire issue.

So… it’s the reward to you. Like I said, I do not think it is right to gate a specific part of a legendary past anything that is challenging such as Sab/Matthais. It’s all speculation though. Who knows, it may be entirely shard based which means you could essentially get the armor by wiping. You do get a significant amount of shards after so many wipes. After my first night of VG progression without any kills I think I remembered having 40-something shards.

As for story. Correct me if I’m wrong but raid lore has nothing to do with living story. Isn’t it simply a side-story that is hardly understandable without additional reading. (Unless you’re hardcore about that lore.)

I’m a bit confused about what you’re saying at the end there. Are you simply saying that the portion of precursor that is gated behind raids should have multiple ways to be gained? If that is so, then you and I are in a partial-agreement. If it’s gated simply behind shards then I do not think this is too much to ask from the general community. Why? Because you do not even have to clear content to get magnetite shards.

Think of it this way.

in a Dungeon there is a Story Mode (easy) and an Explorer Path (Loot Farming)

If you only wanted to do the Dungeon for the Story, because it loosely ties in with the Living Story, you can, and it’s not the difficult, and that is really how the raid should be.

A Loot Path for the Skilled and hardcore Loot monger, and a Story Path for those that really do like the lore of this game. I’ll be honest, unlike many other games, this game has a great storyboard. And I could fully understand someone wanting to experience that as a player, even if they did not have the “Skillz!”

I think we all can respect that, some people really do like the lore, and it’s unfortunate, but often times, those that really get involved in the lore and story of a game, are not hardcore grinders and twitch masters.

There should be a means to make that Lore Accessible to them for them to Experience it first hand, without needing to be carried though the raid, or buying their way.

Now in that, I am not asking for anything special from the raid, much in the same vein that Story Mode does not drop Dungeon Tokens, I am sure many that simply want to see the lore, are fine with not getting their Dungeon Token, or whatever the raid gives you.

Equally so, if there is a Collectible that needs to be obtained to allow for someone to progress on their “Legendary Journey” that too should be accessible in the Vast Majority of the players. And while maybe these items could be gotten even while wiping, Lets be honest, getting whupped, beaten, and in some cases blamed, is never fun for any one when they want to just enjoy a game.

Some people understand that they will never have the skillz to be boss enough to do the raid, and to be honest, they know this, and they don’t want to make a stir in what other people enjoy, they don’t want to ruin your fun by jumping your pug, and screwing things up. But, knowing ‘elite’ content is out of your reach is one thing, and can be grudgingly accepted, however, dealing with the fact that this bars them from a fun and enjoyable Legendary Journey that can give them something to work towards for the next years of their gaming time, as well as some really involved Lore, is a whole other matter and that is where the problem lies.

I think we can all respect that.

I am all for giving out something to those Boss enough to waltz the raid, give you some some epic skin, or nifty named item, maybe toss you a mini, whatever, you deserve it.

When Anet starts to bar enjoying Lore and Legendary’s.. not cool.

@STIHL

Well, the good news is that the raid “lore” is not specifically tied to the main lore. The other good news is that I’d be willing to place bets on the fact that the Legendaries will be gated behind shards meaning you do not have to actually clear content or have “skillz.” You simply need to put forward an effort to “try.”

I’m simply calling people out when they say it’s not about the loot. Take WoW raiding for instance. If you haven’t tried it, bare with me. So, they introduced LFR for those who struggled to find groups or struggled with the content. What this was, was content that required zero effort and zero skills. It had no replay-ability. It was so boring the second time through. You essentially needed to auto-attack the boss throughout the encounter pressing one button repeatedly. This content did not attract players who wished to have fun. This merely became the grind for the in-between of dungeon, and normal difficulty raids. This is the same exact thing a nerf-ed raid would bring. What I don’t want to see is titles, achievements, and essentially glory handed out to those who can zergfest through a “LFR” type raid. I don’t want to see some guy running around with a boss mini from clearing a “LFR” wing. I don’t care about the legendary. Not one bit.

I can respect you wanting to view the lore for yourself, but I do not see how it is possible. Normally, I wouldn’t care if they added in a “LFR” setting, but as we all know Anet’s dev population is extremely limited when comparing to Blizzard’s and I simply do not want them wasting time on a grind-fest so people can see a tiny portion of story that could be easily obtained on the wiki. If the Dev resources were unlimited I would be indifferent. I’d rather see new content though and quicker releases of future wings.

Avarice.2791:

@STIHL

Well, the good news is that the raid “lore” is not specifically tied to the main lore. The other good news is that I’d be willing to place bets on the fact that the Legendaries will be gated behind shards meaning you do not have to actually clear content or have “skillz.” You simply need to put forward an effort to “try.”

Sadly, you would lose that Bet.

As it stands, You need to defeat the Vale Garden to even start the Legendary Armor Collection.

Which means, while it might be a noble idea to throw yourself and 9 other sacrifices at the raid for mats, simply “Trying” is not good enough.

Because, according to the Wiki, At some point, You need to win.

@STIHL Absolutely, then I do in fact agree with you although I still stand by my point that a “LFR” raid is not the way to go. Although, I do believe VG can be easily killed, it is not right to lock a “tier” of armor behind a specific game mode. Although I am able to reach all aspects of this game I do realize that others are under a time constraint and raiding is simply not possible.

Honestly, I have yet to unlock the precursor masteries so I have no place speculating how the legendary armor would work. I assumed it would be “gift of raid” or something for x amounts of shards.

Besides time, there is really no excuse to being unable to down Vale Guardian. It will become unbelievably easier once a proper LFG panel is implemented for raiding. Why? Because this will have the effect of giving leaders the ability to properly find pugs through an efficient and organized system. As a side-effect to this more and more players will become expertised when it comes to raiding. As a side-effect of this, the increase in success will continually go up as time goes on. Pretty soon it will be like second-nature to the average player.

Ohoni.6057:

I’m not sure about that. Being able to advertise a raid might help you fill an empty slot faster, but it’d be very luck of the draw who you get, whereas the current system allows you to be slightly more discerning. It might end up being faster, but leading to less successful parties.

The current system is already very luck of the draw. There’s absolutely no reason to think that it isn’t, or that there would be any meaningful change one way or the other with an LFG restructuring.

Ohoni.6057:

Btw, I haven’t tried this myself for obvious reasons, but wouldn’t it be possible for one or more members of the raid party to leave that party, advertise on LFG, acquire the needed extra people, and then they all rejoin the raid party? What is the process for getting knocked out of a raid for not being in the party?

That is possible, but again, it takes a lot of micromanagement.

Ohoni.6057:

Again though, it’s not that I don’t see the benefits of an LFG change or think that it’s not worth it, I just don’t think it’ll cause any massive sea-change in raider populations. I think it’ll mostly be the same people doing it, just having a slightly more convenient time of it. The people who don’t raid at all still likely won’t, and it’d be nice for them to have an option to solve their issues with the existing raids.

Being able to more easily find a group does solve a lot of issues.

Your issue is that you’re not willing to learn the mechanics. I don’t think that’s an issue most people have.

Having people who ’don’t raid’ and neutering the raiding so that more of those people do raid is really bad. We’ve already told you why. Trust me, there are people, including me, who have a lot more experience with raiding than you do. We’ve seen how these systems play out in practice.

Ohoni.6057:

It’s entirely up to the player which he values more. Personally, I prefer to get experience while winning, but those that prefer to gain experience while failing will always have that option available to them.

You haven’t raided. You don’t know what I’m talking about.

If you don’t want the gradual improvement until success then don’t raid. You’re completely missing the key thing that makes this mode of content gratifying.

fishball.7204:

If you want this legendary armor then you have to raid to work for it.

There’s no easy mode PvP for the legendary backpiece, I don’t see why there should be an easy mode raid for the legendary armor.

There kind of is an easy mode PvP for the legendary backpiece; instead of pushing into deeper divisions and getting the backpiece faster, you just slum your way to Ruby each season. It takes longer to get but it’s much easier, and personally it’s a big part of my strategy to get the class achievements.

Ohoni.6057:

I get the idea of trophies, but an armor skin is not a trophy, a TROPHY is a trophy. A trophy has no value other than being a trophy, it is not a practical item, or even a cosmetic one.

This is untrue in the real world as well as in games.

A trophy is an object that acts as a symbol of one’s victory, accomplishment, etc.

This can be the weapons of a fallen foe (thousands of years of precedent), a worn cosmetic item (yet again thousands of years of precedent up to and including the current day), the corpse (preferably preserved) of one’s target (thousands of years of precedent, up to and including the present day), and so on. Some trophies have, in addition to cosmetic or practical function, high monetary value beyond that derived from the perceived prestige associated with the item’s symbolism.

All told though, you, as you have stated, believe that players should play the content for the sake of the content itself and that they should not be bribed to do so. So an easy mode, without any of the unique raid rewards, such as legendary armor, should suit you fine. Right?

How would other people feel if raids had an easy mode which offered rewards on a par with dungeons?

Ashen.2907:

How would other people feel if raids had an easy mode
which offered rewards on a par with dungeons?

I think most casual GW2 players would be perfectly fine with the idea of a less intensive experience with reduced reward.

Players who tackle the harder content should have a way of showing that off. As long as it doesn’t offer a power advantage (because all of this gear can be used in WvW), then I don’t see an issue.

As I’ve said before, I would fully support a tiered reward system based on how fast a group downed the boss. In the case of the Vale Guardian for example, kill in 8 minutes and earn gold status, which offers full access to everything their now; kill in 8-10 minutes and earn silver status, which offers access to ascended weapon/armor purchases and minis (but not the unique raid skin weapons) and kill in more than 10 minutes to earn bronze status, which gives a champion loot box and minis.

I think most people would find that very fair – and welcome the opportunity to take a greater variety of builds and player commitment levels to the content.

Okay, you managed to type out three paragraphs without stating WHY you want to raid. It’s not the content. You want to nerf the content so it is no longer “content.”

Forgive me for not getting into detail, there have been several of these threads and I went into my reasons for wanting easier raids several times before. The short version is, I enjoy the mechanics themselves, I want to test myself against them. What I do not like is the price of failure, that failing to pass certain mechanics will lead to my death, possibly the entire party wiping and having to restart. I have no interest in that part of it.

I know that there is a market for that level of risk, and hard mode raiding can continue to be for those people, but I would enjoy raiding only if it had less of that risk, if the mechanics were the same, but that the punishment for missing them was more of a hard slap, less of a knife to the gut. My “punishment” would be knowing that I’d screwed that bit up, rather than having to redo the entire thing over again. If that doesn’t sound interesting to you, then that’s ok, not all content has to be for all people and you don’t have to play easy mode raiding, but right now, people don’t even have a choice.

Forum time does not equal raiding time. Why you are arguing this… I have no idea.

Well, you were the one that raised forum time in the first place. Why raise it if the two aren’t comparable? Surely you aren’t implying that raiding time is somehow of more value than forum time? They are both just time spent in a casual hobby, neither really provides any valuable public service or anything.

Here’s the problem, you CAN raid! Trust me, even you have the potential to clear this content. You are simply not APPLYING yourself. You do not what to spend the TIME.

Yeah, I probably could, but not without either a lot of luck or a lot of time, and I am just not interested. Whether or not I could potentially clear the raid is irrelevant, what matters is whether doing so would require me to perform tasks that I have no interest in. The “try→die→repeat. . . . →eventually succeed” gameplay is just a non-starter for me, I do not enjoy that, will never enjoy that, so offering that I could do that is not a productive use of your own time.

A massive amount more of players come to these forums to complain than to say “I’m content with this content” and this number is even more insignificant to the number of players that actually use these forums.

True, but neither can you say that because people are complaining on the forums that they must represent a small number of people. I’m sure that as someone who raids, you encounter a lot of other people who raid, and this might give you an inflated view of what people spend their time doing in this game, but I assure you that it is not at the top of everyone’s list.

If they put in a Story Mode, that allowed someone to enjoy the Story, and get whatever collectible they needed for Legendary Armor, I think that would resolve this entire issue.]

Yeah, for the most part. What I’d really like to see is something that both allows and encourages players to repeat the content, just like the hard mode only more casually, so that more players would be raiding on a weekly basis, just in a mode that they find more comfortable to their gameplay tastes.

As for story. Correct me if I’m wrong but raid lore has nothing to do with living story. Isn’t it simply a side-story that is hardly understandable without additional reading. (Unless you’re hardcore about that lore.)

GW2 is a single global story. Living World seasons, Personal stories, event chains, heart quests, dungeons, they are all part of the lore of the world, and players who want to participate in that want to participate in it. The only thing where you can say “it’s ok for this story to not be for you,” is if there is NO story at all and it’s just a chain of completely arbitrary combat encounters, like the Queen’s Pavilion bosses.

There’s no easy mode PvP for the legendary backpiece, I don’t see why there should be an easy mode raid for the legendary armor.

There should be for both, not neither.

You essentially needed to auto-attack the boss throughout the encounter pressing one button repeatedly.

I’m certainly not asking for that, or at least, most of the people in the group would need to do better than that. It would just be one in which layers would be less likely to die, and require less of a DPS-check.

Your issue is that you’re not willing to learn the mechanics. I don’t think that’s an issue most people have.

I think you have a poor understanding of most people.

Having people who ’don’t raid’ and neutering the raiding so that more of those people do raid is really bad. We’ve already told you why.

For about the three-dozenth time now, nobody is talking about neutering the existing raids. They get to stay 100% intact, so long as an alternative is provided. Now, if there continues to be opposition to any sort of alternative, if the existing raid is all we’ll be getting, then I guess we would have to talk about how to make those raids more accessible to the rest of the playerbase. You got a real nice raid here, shame if anything happened to it.

If you don’t want the gradual improvement until success then don’t raid. You’re completely missing the key thing that makes this mode of content gratifying.

Which is why I keep having to tell people that I have no interest in that experience and never will, but I DO have an interest in a content type that includes all the things the current GW2 raid offers, except that experience.

This can be the weapons of a fallen foe (thousands of years of precedent), a worn cosmetic item (yet again thousands of years of precedent up to and including the current day), the corpse (preferably preserved) of one’s target (thousands of years of precedent, up to and including the present day), and so on. Some trophies have, in addition to cosmetic or practical function, high monetary value beyond that derived from the perceived prestige associated with the item’s symbolism.

The value of a trophy is in the accomplishment attached. Even those embellished with gold and gems are worth well more than their raw material value. It’s not that a trophy can’t be more than just a useless trinket, but that they shouldn’t be more than that.

If you tell someone that they can’t have a statuette of Sabetha unless they actually beat Sabetha, there is no reasonable come-back to that, fair’s fair. If you can’t tell them they can’t have an armor skin that they want unless they beat Sabetha, they have a perfectly reasonable negative response to that, they want that skin, whether or not they particularly care about beating Sabetha or the associated “glory.” If the task is reasonably achievable then it’s fair to say that they need to put out a little more effort. If it would require tens of hours of time and effort at a task that they know they do not enjoy, then that is just cruel and unusual.

All told though, you, as you have stated, believe that players should play the content for the sake of the content itself and that they should not be bribed to do so. So an easy mode, without any of the unique raid rewards, such as legendary armor, should suit you fine. Right?

How would other people feel if raids had an easy mode which offered rewards on a par with dungeons?

First, the rewards has to be enough to justify the time and effort. “Nothing” would not be sufficient to cross that bar, but some token in gold and mats would be sufficient for that much. I assume you’re referencing my stand on dungeon rewards, but dungeon rewards currently pass that “fairness” condition. Easy raids would have to offer something slightly more than current dungeons, because they would still take slightly more time and effort, but it could be balanced out.

The problem here is, you could add an easy mode raid that does not offer raid rewards, and that one satisfy one problem, those who want to do the raid content but don’t want the Sisyphus-mode version of it. One problem down.

But there is the second problem of people who want to get raid-locked armor and weapon skins through some alternative method. This would not help them, so ANet would need to come up with some completely different method of providing these items. Seems like a waste of resources, why not kill two birds with one stone?

Ohoni.6057:

Forgive me for not getting into detail, there have been several of these threads and I went into my reasons for wanting easier raids several times before. The short version is, I enjoy the mechanics themselves, I want to test myself against them. What I do not like is the price of failure, that failing to pass certain mechanics will lead to my death, possibly the entire party wiping and having to restart. I have no interest in that part of it.

But… by creating a “LFR” style raid difficulty eliminates the mechanics. You get no mechanics. By not perfecting mechanics you are not experiencing them. The price of success comes at the price of many failures.

Ohoni.6057:

Well, you were the one that raised forum time in the first place. Why raise it if the two aren’t comparable? Surely you aren’t implying that raiding time is somehow of more value than forum time? They are both just time spent in a casual hobby, neither really provides any valuable public service or anything.

In regards to raiding, it should be obvious to you that time spent raiding is more valuable than time spent complaining. I was gently suggesting that instead of investing hours pushing this idea onto others, that you instead spend it researching and optimizing your role.

Ohoni.6057:

Yeah, I probably could, but not without either a lot of luck or a lot of time, and I am just not interested. Whether or not I could potentially clear the raid is irrelevant, what matters is whether doing so would require me to perform tasks that I have no interest in. The “try->die->repeat. . . . ->eventually succeed” gameplay is just a non-starter for me, I do not enjoy that, will never enjoy that, so offering that I could do that is not a productive use of your own time.

Then perhaps you are not interested in raiding or MMO’s in general. The reward that comes from raiding that everyone is speculating about (Legendary Armor) will take both a lot of luck and time. Perhaps, since you are unwilling to put forth an effort, that raiding is simply not for you?

Ohoni.6057:

True, but neither can you say that because people are complaining on the forums that they must represent a small number of people. I’m sure that as someone who raids, you encounter a lot of other people who raid, and this might give you an inflated view of what people spend their time doing in this game, but I assure you that it is not at the top of everyone’s list.

Actually, to start I raid with the same 9 people every week. Secondly, my point was to state that your idea that most players are casual is a fallacy due to the fact that the people who use the forums are a vast minority. It’s impossible for either of us to know. If you are right, Anet will do something about it. If you are wrong, Anet will not. Only they know.

Ohoni.6057:

GW2 is a single global story. Living World seasons, Personal stories, event chains, heart quests, dungeons, they are all part of the lore of the world, and players who want to participate in that want to participate in it. The only thing where you can say “it’s ok for this story to not be for you,” is if there is NO story at all and it’s just a chain of completely arbitrary combat encounters, like the Queen’s Pavilion bosses.

I’m not saying “it’s ok for this story to not be for you.” I’m saying this story is a completely independent arc from the main story. I am well aware that everything that occurs in Tyria is related to Tyria. This is extremely obvious. I’m simply saying if you refuse to put in the work, then there are other avenues for viewing this story.

Ohoni.6057:

I’m certainly not asking for that, or at least, most of the people in the group would need to do better than that. It would just be one in which layers would be less likely to die, and require less of a DPS-check.

What you are asking for is a mode that does not require mechanics, so you can enjoy the mechanics of the mode. I mean come on lolol

Ohoni.6057:

I think you have a poor understanding of most people.

I think you assume too much and by the amount of replies you get to posts I think you are turning a blind eye to what is actually reality and what is in your head.

Ohoni.6057:

For about the three-dozenth time now, nobody is talking about neutering the existing raids. They get to stay 100% intact, so long as an alternative is provided. Now, if there continues to be opposition to any sort of alternative, if the existing raid is all we’ll be getting, then I guess we would have to talk about how to make those raids more accessible to the rest of the playerbase. You got a real nice raid here, shame if anything happened to it.

You fail to realize that you are essentially “neutering” the value of the rewards gained by raids. It’s really simple. How legendary is a legendary that everyone has?

Ohoni.6057:

Which is why I keep having to tell people that I have no interest in that experience and never will, but I DO have an interest in a content type that includes all the things the current GW2 raid offers, except that experience.

Then, I hate to break it to you big guy, but you have no interest in raiding. Have you spent time raiding in any MMO? Do you understand what it consists of? Most groups should be downing content such as VG and Gors in a matter of <10 hours. Try playing WoW where it took over 100 attempts to down a Mythic boss. Try playing MMO where any raids take practice and perfection. You are defying what is fundamental to raiding and you fail to understand this. Raids require mechanics that are required to be followed otherwise YOU WILL FAIL. It’s so unbelievably simple.

If you create a nerfed version so that you can avoid mechanics THEN YOU ARE NOT RAIDING FOR THE MECHANICS.

Ohoni.6057:

Which is why I keep having to tell people that I have no interest in that experience and never will, but I DO have an interest in a content type that includes all the things the current GW2 raid offers, except that experience.

you’ve already got that content man its the rest of the entire game

Avarice.2791:

If you create a nerfed version so that you can avoid mechanics THEN YOU ARE NOT RAIDING FOR THE MECHANICS.

avarice gets it

Avarice.2791:

snip

i think youre trippin over the fact of rewards. in easy mode it should take a lot more time to complete the legendary stuff for sure. i mean a lot more time. after a lengthy time period most people wont mind about easy mode acquisitions because the buzz will have faded. i can somewhat agree with the stance that the fact that they can be acquired at all via easy mode would devalue the armor, but there are lots of people who simply cant put in the time to learn them. were talking 1 hour a day casuals. most people when they see such high walls avoid the climb, and no one is saying thats right. whats being said is that its wrong that these walls drive people away completely, both to the players and the business.

Stand The Wall.6987:

i think youre trippin over the fact of rewards. in easy mode it should take a lot more time to complete the legendary stuff for sure. i mean a lot more time. after a lengthy time period most people wont mind about easy mode acquisitions because the buzz will have faded. i can somewhat agree with the stance that the fact that they can be acquired at all via easy mode would devalue the armor, but there are lots of people who simply cant put in the time to learn them. were talking 1 hour a day casuals. most people when they see such high walls avoid the climb, and no one is saying thats right. whats being said is that its wrong that these walls drive people away completely, both to the players and the business.

What if… by putting in A LOT more time… you cleared the bosses as they are? I’m not talking Legendary Armor. If all easy-mode LFR raiding offered was legendary gear then I would be perfectly fine with that. It’s the fact that this idea for a zerg-tactic raid would require additional work from a very limited company.

Legendary armor is going to require a WHOLE lot more than simply raiding that most of these “casuals” will never obtain. It’s all speculation that is completely pointless to argue about.