Do you think Raids in GW2 were a bad idea?
The real question is why you want a reward that provides no increase in stats and is just a fancy skin. Exclusive rewards is nothing new in Guild wars 2.
Counter Question: Would you be fine, if the Raid gave you an Armor Skin, as opposed to Legendary Armor?
hmm, it’s a theoritical question, since raid reward legendary armor. But, for me, the answer at your therotical question is yes.
so, now, in practice, since raids reward legendary armor, i dont want it to be rewarded in a way that will remove all the effort put in learning raids, just to please some lazy people that want all for no effort.
No. The raid does not reward Legendary Armor, completing the raid unlocks the collection Those are two very different things.
But the Raid does Reward Magnetite Shards which can be used to buy Ascended Gear that has special Unique Skins
So at what point do you think you moved past fair reward and just dove right onto being Downright Greedy ?
Yes, indeed, it’s the legendary precursor only. And?
Raids reward that + magnétite shards. I’m not greedy, it’s just anet choice. You’re the greedy one wanting all of that, but without raiding.
Have I expressed that I want it? Watch those Personal Attacks.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Have I expressed that I want it? Watch those Personal Attacks.
Hmm my bad, you just seem to not like having legendary armor locked behind raid (that i can understand, pvp and WvW should have something like that too)
But you were the one calling me greedy because it happens I like this content, and anet chose to put some rewards behind it..
Have I expressed that I want it? Watch those Personal Attacks.
Hmm my bad, you just seem to not like having legendary armor locked behind raid (that i can understand, pvp and WvW should have something like that too)
But you were the one calling me greedy because it happens I like this content, and anet chose to put some rewards behind it..
You’re not greedy because you like the content, no one is greedy because they have fun playing, but the fact that you feel that the content should have so much reward linked to it.. yah.. that’s a bit much.
Added: Especially, when you say you would be satisfied with just a Special Skin, and you are Getting Ascended Gear with Special Skin.. to then demand that you also get Legendary. Come on.. You don’t think that makes you look greedy?
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Have I expressed that I want it? Watch those Personal Attacks.
Hmm my bad, you just seem to not like having legendary armor locked behind raid (that i can understand, pvp and WvW should have something like that too)
But you were the one calling me greedy because it happens I like this content, and anet chose to put some rewards behind it..You’re not greedy because you like the content, no one is greedy because they have fun playing, but the fact that you feel that the content should have so much reward linked to it.. yah.. that’s a bit much.
So much reward? Do you know that actually many of us are loosing money while raiding? Because shards are caped monday or tuesday (only 100 par week), the money is ridiculous (it’s better to chop tree), and the chances of ascended or infusion really low.
So indeed, we’re Lucky to have some skins (again with shards cap it’s slow) and the legendary pré as a carrot
It’s not a hardship. It’s like saying you want to go to holiday in Taiwan so you’re working some overtime to make money for your vacation and your boss is exploiting your hardship.
No. It’s not like that at all. If we’re going to use that analogy, it’s like you don’t make enough to go to Taiwan, so your friend offers to let you pick up some of his shifts so you can make extra money, all the while convincing your boss not to give you a raise that would give you enough money without having to do your friend’s work for him.
People who offer to sell raid slots aren’t doing favors, they are exploiting people’s weakness, while fighting to maintain the system in which that exploitation has a place. There is NO justifying it from a moral standpoint.
So much reward? Do you know that actually many of us are loosing money while raiding? Because shards are caped monday or tuesday (only 100 par week), the money is ridiculous (it’s better to chop tree), and the chances of ascended or infusion really low.
So indeed, we’re Lucky to have some skins (again with shards cap it’s slow) and the legendary pré as a carrot
So then argue for better generic reward, I think we can all agree that raids should offer a net profit, just don’t fight to defend the uneven balance of unique rewards.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Added: Especially, when you say you would be satisfied with just a Special Skin, and you are Getting Ascended Gear with Special Skin.. to then demand that you also get Legendary. Come on.. You don’t think that makes you look greedy?
Wait? Who is demanding? How can you even speculate if legendary armor will be permanently limited to a raiding collection? What’s even the point in arguing on this topic when no one has any idea except Anet? Is some sort of elitist raider holding Anet hostage and making demands? I think I feel behind in this “discussion.” Are we greedy… if we raid? Are Anet’s devs sifting through the 50+ pages of “easy-mode raids” paying close attention to the 15 or so who are conversing?
People who offer to sell raid slots aren’t doing favors, they are exploiting people’s weakness, while fighting to maintain the system in which that exploitation has a place. There is NO justifying it from a moral standpoint.
What??? This is like saying the grocery store is exploiting people’s weakness for selling milk…. People who offer to sell raid slots are doing favors for people who are willing to pay for them. They’re literally not hurting anyone. Are services defined as exploiting the weak?
Edit: Nope it appears to be defined as: “the action of helping or doing work for someone.”
(edited by Avarice.2791)
So then argue for better generic reward, I think we can all agree that raids should offer a net profit, just don’t fight to defend the uneven balance of unique rewards.
I will keep on défending the unique rewards, because that’s how the game is working. I’m deeply convinced that people need to be motivated by unique rewards to try new things, to try to get better. And it’s healthier for the game. Because for one people like you, there is another that will make the effort to go into raids, although it’s not in its habit.
What??? This is like saying the grocery store is exploiting people’s weakness for selling milk….
Are they currently? No. Would they be if milk could be created completely for free, but they are fighting to suppress that technology so that they can continue to sell milk for a profit? Yes. That’s the issue here.
There is no good reason why people should be able to sell raids.
They are only able to sell raids because there are a lot of people who can’t do it right now, and are more willing to buy a raid slot than to do without.
If anyone could do the raid without being carried, then nobody would need to buy a raid slot.
Therefore, fighting against raids that everyone can do is fighting to defend the ability to continue preying on their weaknesses.
People who offer to sell raid slots are doing favors for people who are willing to pay for them.
Nooo. . . offering people a slot for FREE is doing a favor. Offering to accept payment for the slot is providing a transactional service. Offering to accept payment for something, and fighting to maintain the status quo that makes that service valuable is exploitative.
I’m deeply convinced that people need to be motivated by unique rewards to try new things, to try to get better.
And we’ve already been over this. Having a unique reward to get people to TRY new things is fine, but the player should walk away with that reward, regardless of their skill level, within an hour or so of earnestly attempting the content. If the reward needs more time or effort than that, then it fails as a “trial” reward, it is a merit reward, and merit rewards should be based on a broad range of merit to appeal to the broadest possible range of tastes, rather than a specific task which may not appeal to everyone.
If they want to have a unique trial reward for raids, that’s fine, but it’s something that should require no more than getting to the second phase of Vale Guardian, if that.
And just because someone does do the raid and works hard and eventually beats it, that does not automatically mean that the process was a positive experience. I’m going to get that Ascension wing in a few months, and I’ll be happy about that, but I’ll have had to spend several months PvPing to do it, hating the entire experience, and overall that will represent a total failure on ANet’s part, for dragging me through content that I did not enjoy doing (or alternately causing me to miss out on a reward that I wanted).
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
And we’ve already been over this. Having a unique reward to get people to TRY new things is fine, but the player should walk away with that reward, regardless of their skill level, within an hour or so of earnestly attempting the content. If the reward needs more time or effort than that, then it fails as a “trial” reward, it is a merit reward, and merit rewards should be based on a broad range of merit to appeal to the broadest possible range of tastes, rather than a specific task which may not appeal to everyone.
Magnetite Shards in raids, yes…you fail, you can have it. If you hope having all rewards after just some tries, you’re just dreaming alive…
If they want to have a unique trial reward for raids, that’s fine, but it’s something that should require no more than getting to the second phase of Vale Guardian, if that.
If for you the limit is this low, we will trully never agree..come on, 2 nd phase only ?
And just because someone does do the raid and works hard and eventually beats it, that does not automatically mean that the process was a positive experience. I’m going to get that Ascension wing in a few months, and I’ll be happy about that, but I’ll have had to spend several months PvPing to do it, hating the entire experience, and overall that will represent a total failure on ANet’s part, for dragging me through content that I did not enjoy doing (or alternately causing me to miss out on a reward that I wanted).
No one is forcing you. Again, it’s your expérience… And i’m sûre there are people, on the contrary, that tried pvp because of that, and liked it. So YOU think it’s à failure, and I think it’s à good move and a success for Anet.
And it was as wrong then as it is now, Absurdo. I am/was an avid fractal runner and always thought how stupid it is to put the ascended backpiece into it. A content either can stand on its own feet by being accessible and fun without getting a subvention in the form of reward or it is destined to fail. Although I am not that much supportive of easy raids, there was definitely an easy mode in Fractals, you cold grind lvl10 fractals until you got enough fractal coinage and essence of the mist stuff to buy your way in.
And for the question of why I want it, I want it because the feature is nice and I don´t care for rune swapping. I could live without it of course, but when Anet offers me a forum to vent my protest, why should I not use it?
Fair enough that you can offer your opinion.
As others have said, rewards can drive content. And almost every game mode has exclusive rewards tied to it, not just fractals. I also find it a bit hypocritical to simultaneously argue that “content should stand on its own without rewards” and “I want to access the same reward through X content.” While it may be possible to reconcile these two views, they are in tension with each other.
Some content has easy modes (fractals, SAB) but most don’t (Arah, queens gauntlet). I think that’s ok, as long as there is content at a variety of skill levels. Which there is.
If you are only going after legendaries for the stat change, and don’t care about runes, then you could buy 1000 sets of exotic armor for the same price.
I don´t even disagree that content can be driven by rewards, but it does not change my opinion that it is wrong. When GW2 went free to play, I quickly stated here how I was repulsed from that thinly veiled tactic of Anet and excuse to make raids bigger than they would be when Dungeons were nerfed and basically abandoned and legendary armor was announced to be raid exclusive.
For your examples, nobody cares if Arah is too hard for some people because there is nothing of a lasting value hidden behind it. I am missing one dungeon path of Arah to get the explorer title, but it simply can´t and probably won´t pick myself up to do it because it frankly is not worth it in my eyes to sit through Arah again which primarily interested me for the tales the NPCs told about old races.
It´s the same with queens gauntlet, but that does not bother me in the slightest because i did not even really care for the event itself after ls1 because from that point it is only the sorry excuse of content with a single beam of light with one of the participants now training in lions arch.
I can reconcile the views you mentioned because I primarily link enjoyment with quality instead of pure effort. I won´t offer any effort in my game time if there is no enjoyment in it.
The largest majority of my toons wear ascended armor, and I don´t swap my stats or armor because some math computer geek made a fancy programm and thinks Soldier or Carrion sucks(before you grab your forks and torches, I also stay clear of speedrunners and people of that kind^^). I crafted a large majority of these items instead of finding them, so I don´t really need the armor. It´s more of a principle and the offer of convenience for me.
Added: Especially, when you say you would be satisfied with just a Special Skin, and you are Getting Ascended Gear with Special Skin.. to then demand that you also get Legendary. Come on.. You don’t think that makes you look greedy?
Wait? Who is demanding? How can you even speculate if legendary armor will be permanently limited to a raiding collection? What’s even the point in arguing on this topic when no one has any idea except Anet? Is some sort of elitist raider holding Anet hostage and making demands? I think I feel behind in this “discussion.” Are we greedy… if we raid? Are Anet’s devs sifting through the 50+ pages of “easy-mode raids” paying close attention to the 15 or so who are conversing?
People who offer to sell raid slots aren’t doing favors, they are exploiting people’s weakness, while fighting to maintain the system in which that exploitation has a place. There is NO justifying it from a moral standpoint.
What??? This is like saying the grocery store is exploiting people’s weakness for selling milk…. People who offer to sell raid slots are doing favors for people who are willing to pay for them. They’re literally not hurting anyone. Are services defined as exploiting the weak?
Edit: Nope it appears to be defined as: “the action of helping or doing work for someone.”
Most of the raiders seem to not want legendary armor pre to drop anywere else then in said raid becouse it somehow devalue how they think they got it.
If noone was demanding the new legendary items / viper trinkets to be locked behind raid we wouldent have the discussion.
So much reward?
Lets see:
A whole collection of Custom Minis.
Endless Custom Ascended Armor/Weapons Skins.
a Special Title
10 Mastery Points
almost 200 Achievements Points.
Assorted Ascended Crafting Material.
A Special Currency used to Purchase Ascended Weapons and Armor with Custom Skins.
On top of that, each Raid Boss Chest, Drops No less then 2 gold, in coin alone, along with exotic items, and a chance for Ascended Items as well.
Yes, please tell me how you are losing money.
So on top of all those rewards, we all have to suffer to two topics of 20+ pages, of you all are fussing about needing to keep the Legendary Collection Unlock exclusive to the raid.
How many ways I can take that aside from being purely motivated by greed?
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
(edited by STIHL.2489)
No. It’s not like that at all. If we’re going to use that analogy, it’s like you don’t make enough to go to Taiwan
Hold it right there.
You don’t need to go to Taiwan for a holiday. It’s not a hardship. It’s a holiday. That’s the point. If someone says “oh woe is me my life is terrible I can’t afford to go to an exotic foreign country for my vacation” they don’t get an ounce of sympathy from me.
Similarly, you don’t need the rewards from raiding for much of anything. Skins do literally nothing for you mechanically. Legendary armor is a convenience, and is probably going to be more expensive to make than it will be to simply make ascended armor of each of the relevant classes (basically just Zerks and Viper’s). There’s no argument to make that Legendary armor is anywhere near required.
Calling “I have to pay for a raid clear!” a ‘hardship’ is taking the kitten. You’re playing a video game and you’re calling your inability to obtain pixels a hardship.
Nalhadia – Kaineng
In the end, they say they have the metrics to make them happy, but we shall see if that turns into cash.
In the end, given all I have seen and read here, I still really think this move they are making is gonna bite them in the kitten , something fierce.
I’ll wait an see at this point.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Let me lend you a hand in advance with answering the post of STIHL, Hypairion:
Yes, Silverwaste nets more than that. Nobody disagrees.^^
Are they currently? No. Would they be if milk could be created completely for free, but they are fighting to suppress that technology so that they can continue to sell milk for a profit? Yes. That’s the issue here.
Milk is created for free, the process of creating milk costs money. Raiding is free. The process of being carried through a raid costs money. Money is a man-made concept. Look. You can rip out and replace the carpet in your house, or you can pay someone to come and do it for you. They aren’t taking advantage of you. You are paying them for a service. It is the same thing here. To someone who has thousands of gold in the inventory, what you are claiming is a complete joke. Your argument is literally based off an opinion that is based off perspective.
AreNooo. . . offering people a slot for FREE is doing a favor. Offering to accept payment for the slot is providing a transactional service. Offering to accept payment for something, and fighting to maintain the status quo that makes that service valuable is exploitative.
Again, a matter of perspective and by far not a valid point. The literal definition of service, again, is the action of helping or doing work for someone. If you do not consider this a favor, I do not know what to tell you. The moral of the story here is this is how it is, and no matter how much you discuss it with opinions and speculation, nothing is going to change. We are all clueless. Say what you want and move on. This out-of-context quoting and attempts to negate opposers with speculation and opinions is becoming toxic. We’re looking at over 45 pages of forum space consisting of probably less than 50 users.
If noone was demanding the new legendary items / viper trinkets to be locked behind raid we wouldent have the discussion.
I really don’t think anyone is mate. Raiders simply do not want to see what they have worked for handed out for free, and this really isn’t an issue at all tbh.
The main issue is the fact that players do not want to see more focus on raids. Rather, the majority of the community desires new content. I am almost certain there will be other avenues for receiving different sets of legendary armor in the future. This is simply the test run.
Sure, the portion of community that raids is tiny when compared to the portion of community that doesn’t raid, but this isn’t what we are comparing here. We are comparing the portion of the players who do not raid and do not wish to raid yet they want to experience the raid to the rest of the community that desires new content. I am fairly certain from recent activity from the forums over the past few months, that the player-base would much rather have new content than raid modes, and that this number is probably even smaller than the number of raiders.
(edited by Avarice.2791)
Are they currently? No. Would they be if milk could be created completely for free, but they are fighting to suppress that technology so that they can continue to sell milk for a profit? Yes. That’s the issue here.
Milk is created for free, the process of creating milk costs money. Raiding is free. The process of being carried through a raid costs money. Money is a man-made concept. Look. You can rip out and replace the carpet in your house, or you can pay someone to come and do it for you. They aren’t taking advantage of you. You are paying them for a service. It is the same thing here. To someone who has thousands of gold in the inventory, what you are claiming is a complete joke. Your argument is literally based off an opinion that is based off perspective.
AreNooo. . . offering people a slot for FREE is doing a favor. Offering to accept payment for the slot is providing a transactional service. Offering to accept payment for something, and fighting to maintain the status quo that makes that service valuable is exploitative.
Again, a matter of perspective and by far not a valid point. The literal definition of service, again, is the action of helping or doing work for someone. If you do not consider this a favor, I do not know what to tell you. The moral of the story here is this is how it is, and no matter how much you discuss it with opinions and speculation, nothing is going to change. We are all clueless. Say what you want and move on. This out-of-context quoting and attempts to negate opposers with speculation and opinions is becoming toxic. We’re looking at over 45 pages of forum space consisting of probably less than 50 users.
If noone was demanding the new legendary items / viper trinkets to be locked behind raid we wouldent have the discussion.
I really don’t think anyone is mate. Raiders simply do not want to see what they have worked for handed out for free, and this really isn’t an issue at all tbh.
The main issue is the fact that players do not want to see more focus on raids. Rather, the majority of the community desires new content. I am almost certain there will be other avenues for receiving different sets of legendary armor in the future. This is simply the test run.
Sure, the portion of community that raids is tiny when compared to the portion of community that doesn’t raid, but this isn’t what we are comparing here. We are comparing the portion of the players who do not raid and do not wish to raid yet they want to experience the raid to the rest of the community that desires new content. I am fairly certain from recent activity from the forums over the past few months, that the player-base would much rather have new content than raid modes, and that this number is probably even smaller than the number of raiders.
Yes becouse anet will ofcourse do more then one legendary armor set since raiders want thier exclusive skin i would think.
Then they have to make another and when they cant even complete the second set of legendary weapons.
The devs have stated in the ama that armor is harder to do then weapons.
No mate we wont see it coming from anything else unless anet changes it stand now and implement the same pre and collection in other parts of the game.
I find it fun that wvw and spvp is what people are ok with it being in.
Spvp that can be farmed brain dead on custom maps is somehow the same effort as raids, same with wvw you can go cap with stuff 1-3 people and earn it.
Consdering some of the living story season 2 acheivements it would be the same to put it in living story season 3 aswell then.
Lets see:
A whole collection of Custom Minis.
0 gold. And 40 shards when you drop more than once time. Oh btw, i’ve got 6 minis since 5 months, so…
Endless Custom Ascended Armor/Weapons Skins.
Yes this one is nice ( but still 0 gold, and drop rate is very low, unless you buy it with shards. Just need some weeks ^^)
a Special Title
10 Mastery Points
almost 200 Achievements Points.
Not bad, but still 0 gold…
Assorted Ascended Crafting Material.
Oh, almost forget this one…let’s see, since we can only have the Chest once the first time we kill à boss, it’s almost négligeable
A Special Currency used to Purchase Ascended Weapons and Armor with Custom Skins.
This one is good, but the cap is low (100 shards à week). If, one day, anet think easy mode is necessary, shards are à good reward, but in less quantities than normal mode, ofc…
On top of that, each Raid Boss Chest, Drops No less then 2 gold, in coin alone, along with exotic items, and a chance for Ascended Items as well.
Not sure if you’re serious…yeah 2 gold by boss, each week…and some crappy exotic.
And a very low chance for Ascended.
Oh and you forgot the ghostlty infusion, but chances are very very low (but still à nice moment when you kill gorseval and hope for it…). If not, just 10 weeks of raid, and you can buy it ^^
You know that running Sw, chopping trees or Killing mossman offer beter rewards? And i’m not talking about playing the tp…
Yes, please tell me how you are losing money.
Expensive food, à lot of wipe at the beginning when we learn, and even after we’re shards caped, we ré (at least in my guild) doing multiple times the wings for all people, for new people, to test new characters etc…so each time, food.
And of course, ascended weapons and armors…sigils, runes, black Diamond for viper set etc…you’ll be surprised ^^
So on top of all those rewards, we all have to suffer to two topics of 20+ pages, of you all are fussing about needing to keep the Legendary Collection Unlock exclusive to the raid.
No, I think many agree that legendary pré should be available in other game mode (pvp, WvW)
I don’t want that easy mode make it available for all, that’s all. You want it ? Fine, come with us into normal raid, that’s all..
How else can that be taken beyond Self Serving Greedy?
Enlighten me.
Again, who is greedy? People playing raid, making effort, taking à lot of time, gold etc to clear them? Or cry babies forum players wanting same rewards, but without effort ?
You know that running Sw, chopping trees or Killing mossman offer beter rewards? And i’m not talking about playing the tp…
Is there something stopping you from doing that with the rest of your time, or does doing the raid lock you out of the game for the rest of the week?
Also, go chop tress for 45 min, tell me your chances of pulling an Ascended Weapon, who’s parts alone are worth well over 100 gold.
Expensive food, à lot of wipe at the beginning when we learn, and even after we’re shards caped, we ré (at least in my guild) doing multiple times the wings for all people, for new people, to test new characters etc…so each time, food.
And of course, ascended weapons and armors…sigils, runes, black Diamond for viper set etc…you’ll be surprised ^^
Again, are you unable to use that gear for other parts of the game? Can you only put it on during the raid? If not, then it’s an investment in your character, not a cost of doing the raid.
Wipes cost zero Gold as there is no repair cost.
The only thing you have said, is “food”, I have got to ask, what are you eating that cost over 2 gold in the supposed 45 min it takes to do a raid?
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
(edited by STIHL.2489)
Endless Custom Ascended Armor/Weapons Skins.
Yes this one is nice ( but still 0 gold, and drop rate is very low, unless you buy it with shards. Just need some weeks ^^)
No, this is a item that is worth well over a 100 gold, in parts alone. The Ascended Insignia alone sells for over 85 gold easy.
So this is most assuredly.. Not 0 gold.
Assorted Ascended Crafting Material.
Oh, almost forget this one…let’s see, since we can only have the Chest once the first time we kill à boss, it’s almost négligeable
30 gold in materials for 45 min of Work is not Negligible.
So far, you could have gained well over 100 gold, and no less then 30 gold, for less then an hours work.
Dang.
Dang…
You know what, your attempt at a pity party is pathetic. But looking at that sweet easy loot, I might just have to get myself into this raid.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
You know that running Sw, chopping trees or Killing mossman offer beter rewards? And i’m not talking about playing the tp…
Is there something stopping you from doing that with the rest of your time, or does doing the raid lock you out of the game for the rest of the week?
Also, go chop tress for 45 min, tell me your chances of pulling an Ascended Weapon, who’s parts alone are worth well over 100 gold.
Expensive food, à lot of wipe at the beginning when we learn, and even after we’re shards caped, we ré (at least in my guild) doing multiple times the wings for all people, for new people, to test new characters etc…so each time, food.
And of course, ascended weapons and armors…sigils, runes, black Diamond for viper set etc…you’ll be surprised ^^Again, are you unable to use that gear for other parts of the game? Can you only put it on during the raid? If not, then it’s an investment in your character, not a cost of doing the raid.
Wipes cost zero Gold as there is no repair cost.
The only thing you have said, is “food”, I have got to ask, what are you eating that cost over 2 gold in the supposed 45 min it takes to do a raid?
You know nothing, John snow…
Multiple gear, expensive sigils, viper set can ofc course be used outside of the raid. But the investment IS for the raid.
So food…Best food is expensive (but i don’t think you know what food we’re using, go look at toxic sharpenning Stones for example). It doesn’t take 45 min to raid in the learning phase, or when people try news classes, or when we bring non exp people. Mistakes happen. But we’re using food all the time. And when we redo the wings for everyone, again we’re using food without gaining money.
Endless Custom Ascended Armor/Weapons Skins.
Yes this one is nice ( but still 0 gold, and drop rate is very low, unless you buy it with shards. Just need some weeks ^^)
No, this is a item that is worth well over a 100 gold, in parts alone. The Ascended Insignia alone sells for over 85 gold easy.
So this is most assuredly.. Not 0 gold.
Assorted Ascended Crafting Material.
Oh, almost forget this one…let’s see, since we can only have the Chest once the first time we kill à boss, it’s almost négligeable
30 gold in materials for 45 min of Work is not Negligible.
So far, you could have gained well over 100 gold, and no less then 30 gold, for less then an hours work.
Dang.
Dang…
You know what, your attempt at a pity party is pathetic. But looking at that sweet easy loot, I might just have to get myself into this raid.
Ouch you really don’t know the raids…the ascended weapons / armor are worth something, but first you have to loot it. So good luck (it’s rng, low loot drop)
And the Crafting material are looted only ONCE, the first time ever you kill à boss. Not each week. So it’s not 30 gold for 45 min of work, again you know nothing…
Come into raids, you’re welcome. Maybe you’ll cry less after.
I never said effort =skill so im unsure why this was even quoted, I said that being rich does not = skill.
Now i’m sure you’ll come back with a witty rebuttal about how making money has skill involved. not really. Buying low prices on the trading post and then selling for slightly higher again doesn’t take skill.
Running kitten easy events in silverwastes and goldfarming via chest trains also takes no skill, you literally show up to an event and press 1.
Gw2 raiding doesn’t take a lot of skill either, because its 10% of making right build, learning rotation and mechanically remembering fight patterns and 90% is finding another 9 people who will do the same thing and coordinate with them. So, by your definition raiders should be stripped of their rewards because it takes next to no skill in comparison with raiding games like wow?
Your logic is bad and you should feel bad. Making the right build? that takes like 5 minutes as all you do is occasionally trade a trait line for another depending on the boss.
ironically memorizing patterns and how best to react to them along with 9 others is more challenging than you would think. I agree in an ideal world this takes no skill, but we are humans, humans make mistakes.
If you don’t know your rotation you have no business doing high level content, it’s clear that you’d have a lot of learning to do. I say your logic is bad because raiders put in the effort needed to actually kill the boss. Therefore you deserve the rewards, if you don’t put in even that amount of effort you deserve nothing.
They are only able to sell raids because there are a lot of people who can’t do it right now, and are more willing to buy a raid slot than to do without.
No. People sell raid slots because other people would rather pay someone else to complete the content instead of just sitting down and learning to do it themselves.
Anybody playing this game is perfectly capable of completing the raids- at least in a DPS role- if they’re willing to run a decent build with decent gear (not necessarily Ascended, just with the relevant stats for their role) and put in the work to learn the encounters (which isn’t even excessively difficult; the execution is sometimes tricky, but that’s about it).
While they may not be the star of the team, they’ll at least be able to pull their weight.
If anyone could do the raid without being carried, then nobody would need to buy a raid slot.
Nobody even NEEDS to buy a raid slot now. There are people out there who purchased AC runs; are you going to tell me that not everyone is capable of completing AC?
Also, Hypairion, is there something up with your keyboard? What’s with the ãccents?
HAF 912 | i7-3770k @ 4.5 GHz | MSI GTX 1070 GAMING 8GB | Gigabyte Z77X-D3H
EGVA SuperNOVA B2 750W | 16 GB DDR3 1600 | Acer XG270HU | Win 10×64
MX Brown Quickfire XT | Commander Shaussman [AGNY]- Fort Aspenwood
EGVA SuperNOVA B2 750W | 16 GB DDR3 1600 | Acer XG270HU | Win 10×64
MX Brown Quickfire XT | Commander Shaussman [AGNY]- Fort Aspenwood
Magnetite Shards in raids, yes…you fail, you can have it. If you hope having all rewards after just some tries, you’re just dreaming alive…
But magnetite shards have literally zero value unless you also beat Vale Guardian, so that’s no help. And you still have all that unique stuff that requires considerably more.
My point is, if you’re going to make the argument that unique rewards are important to get people to TRY new things, then that’s fine, but that reward needs to be something that can be earned within an hour or two and with minimal skill. It needs to respect that while you want to get as many people as possible through the door, a lot of them will likely not want what you are selling and would like to leave please, and not keep stringing those people along.
So leave all the existing raid rewards intact, even boost them for all I care, but provide alternative methods of earning them elsewhere.You can leave a UNIQUE reward that can only be gained in hard mode raids, but it can’t take any more than the time and effort it would take an average player to get to phase two of VG. If they want to continue raiding after that, then they can work towards the other rewards by doing so. If they don’t want to raid beyond that, they don’t have to and can go in peace.
If you’re unwilling to agree to that, then stop trying to frame your position as “it’s important to have unique rewards to get people to TRY new things,” when merely “trying” them is clearly not enough to actually earn those rewards.
If for you the limit is this low, we will trully never agree..come on, 2 nd phase only ?
That seems to be a reasonable target for an average player within a couple of hours work. Actually beating the VG, unless you’re with an already experienced and meta-balanced party, is unlikely within that amount of time, so it falls outside the framework of “trial,” and into the realm of “an accomplishment.” I’m obviously not saying they should get a finished Legendary Precursor for so little effort or anything of the sort, but they could maybe get a key component that can only be earned from raiding. They’d still need to put in the work to earn all the other components elsewhere.
No one is forcing you. Again, it’s your expérience…
And again, so long as the reward I want is being held hostage behind that content, the “nobody is forcing you” excuse is bull-kitten. It’s one or the other, either I do the content I do not want to do, or I never get the thing I want to get, lose-lose. That is bad, however you want to describe that situation, it is a negative experience and should not be the only option. There should be an option to earn the reward I want AND enjoy the process of earning it. YOU have that already by playing the raids you claim to enjoy. All I want is that same option, given that my tastes are different than yours.
And i’m sûre there are people, on the contrary, that tried pvp because of that, and liked it. So YOU think it’s à failure, and I think it’s à good move and a success for Anet.
No, it is a failure, regardless of what you think. It’s not something you can decide. Now, are there some players that played PvP and enjoyed it? Sure, and that’s great, but they could have achieved that WITHOUT the failure caused by shoving plenty of players through that did NOT enjoy it, so it’s a failure overall even if it had minor successes included. If they had merely wanted people to TRY PvP, to decide whether they enjoyed it, then as I described above they could have left the Recruits Wings of Glory as PvP-only, requiring you to reach Emerald at least once, but then allow you to get the remaining parts elsewhere.
That way players who love PvP would win because they could PvP all the way to the Ascension and enjoy the whole experience, players who didn’t know they loved PvP but loved it when they tried it would win because they would try PvP for the Recruits Wings, get to Emerald, say “gee, I’m having fun!” and PvP the rest of the way, and players who hate PvP could slug through Amber in a few hours and with pretty much no skill required, get their wings, and move on to earning the other components elsewhere, so they’d win too.
Everybody wins, that’s what I’m going for here.
Hold it right there.
You don’t need to go to Taiwan for a holiday. It’s not a hardship. It’s a holiday. That’s the point. If someone says “oh woe is me my life is terrible I can’t afford to go to an exotic foreign country for my vacation” they don’t get an ounce of sympathy from me.
You’ve officially lost track of the metaphor.
In the end, they say they have the metrics to make them happy, but we shall see if that turns into cash.
They never said that. They said that players attempting the raid in the first few months is higher than the industry standard for raiding, which is not terribly impressive given that the industry standard for raiding is fairly low. You guys are assuming way too much from what they said.
Ohoni.6057:
Are they currently? No. Would they be if milk could be created completely for free, but they are fighting to suppress that technology so that they can continue to sell milk for a profit? Yes. That’s the issue here.
Milk is created for free, the process of creating milk costs money. Raiding is free. The process of being carried through a raid costs money. Money is a man-made concept. Look. You can rip out and replace the carpet in your house, or you can pay someone to come and do it for you. They aren’t taking advantage of you. You are paying them for a service. It is the same thing here. To someone who has thousands of gold in the inventory, what you are claiming is a complete joke. Your argument is literally based off an opinion that is based off perspective.
You’re deliberately breaking the analogy to show that it is broken. Congratulations on completely missing the point. The point is, people can only currently sell raids because there is a market for it. There is only a market for it because raids are harder than the accepted standard for this game. If raids were not harder than the accepted standard for the game (either the only raid or an easier version of the raid), then there would be no market for selling raid slots. People who sell raid slots are exploiting a situation that does not have to exist, and are actively fighting to prevent that imbalance from being solved. That is wrong, end of story.
The literal definition of service, again, is the action of helping or doing work for someone. If you do not consider this a favor, I do not know what to tell you.
Because “service” and “favor” are not synonyms. A favor can be a service, but a service is not a favor unless it is FREE. If you charge someone to do it, it cannot be a favor.
And when the player in question is actually fighting against actually resolving the problem that would make the service unnecessary, then they are not even providing a service, they are running a protection racket.
Yes this one is nice ( but still 0 gold, and drop rate is very low, unless you buy it with shards. Just need some weeks ^^)
If you get things that would normally cost a lot of money, then that is not “zero gold.” If you spend 5g to do something, and come out of it with an item that would cost you dozens of gold to buy/make yourself, you’re coming out ahead on that deal. You don’t need bonus gold on top of that.
Expensive food, à lot of wipe at the beginning when we learn, and even after we’re shards caped, we ré (at least in my guild) doing multiple times the wings for all people, for new people, to test new characters etc…so each time, food.
Then be more frugal with your food. Use cheap food on runs where you don’t expect to go all the way and only use the good stuff when you’re ready to finish it.
Again, who is greedy? People playing raid, making effort, taking à lot of time, gold etc to clear them? Or cry babies forum players wanting same rewards, but without effort ?
The former, they’re the ones trying to hoard the legendaries for themselves and keep them out of the hands of others, so yes, that’s what greed is.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Again, who is greedy? People playing raid, making effort, taking à lot of time, gold etc to clear them? Or cry babies forum players wanting same rewards, but without effort ?
The former, they’re the ones trying to hoard the legendaries for themselves and keep them out of the hands of others, so yes, that’s what greed is.
I actually don’t even care about legendary armor, i’m just a strong believer in working for rewards. This generation has to be the laziest generation to yet exist. I’m part of it and I see it time and time again.
(edited by The one to Rule.2593)
Have I expressed that I want it? Watch those Personal Attacks.
Hmm my bad, you just seem to not like having legendary armor locked behind raid (that i can understand, pvp and WvW should have something like that too)
But you were the one calling me greedy because it happens I like this content, and anet chose to put some rewards behind it..You’re not greedy because you like the content, no one is greedy because they have fun playing, but the fact that you feel that the content should have so much reward linked to it.. yah.. that’s a bit much.
Added: Especially, when you say you would be satisfied with just a Special Skin, and you are Getting Ascended Gear with Special Skin.. to then demand that you also get Legendary. Come on.. You don’t think that makes you look greedy?
Ah didnt see your édit. I don’t demand legendary, anet put it as a reward. Nuance…
Actually, non raiders in this topic ARE demanding this legendary pré, in an easy / infantile way to cater their lazyness.
I actually don’t even care about legendary armor, i’m just a strong believer in working for rewards. This generation has to be the laziest generation to yet exist. I’m part of it and I see it time and time again.
Then we don’t have any conflict. You want people to work for rewards, I want people to work for rewards,m and we can both agree that because this is a game, not a job, the players should enjoy the journey, so they should be able to do that work in content that they enjoy.
Actually, non raiders in this topic ARE demanding this legendary pré, in an easy / infantile way to cater their lazyness.
No, that’s just the slander people have accused us of. What we’re actually looking for is certainly an easier method than the current one, but not “infantile,” it would require just as much skill as the standard gameplay in the rest of the game, and not at all “lazy,” because it would actually involve MORE effort than the existing raids, due to more repetitions. It’s like the difference between lifting one 100lb. barbell once, verses lifting one 50lb. barbell three times. The latter person did more work, put in more effort, it was just at a more achievable level for him.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Sorry you can’t just go out and buy your legendary so you can act cool ith no effort
Nobody’s asking for that. It’s just some people that claim that only effort they approve counts.
Yeah they are asking for that. That is exactly what they are asking for. Being rich does not equal skill, that’s exactly what Arena net have been trying to avoid with all the new legendaries.
As i said, you are using some extremely nonstandart definition of “effort”. No, skill in itself is not effort. In fact, having more skill results in exerting less effort.
Also, skill gates on all new legendary weapons and backpacks are really low.I never said effort =skill so im unsure why this was even quoted, I said that being rich does not = skill.
Ah, so you answered with something that had nothing to do with what i said before (seeing as i was speaking about effort, not skill or wealth).
No, people are not asking to buy legendaries. The people that suggest that option are, interesingly enough, mostly raiders. Nor are they asking to get them effortlessly – that again is only something that raiders mention, as a strawman.
It’s just that this fact keeps getting ignored, because apparently not all kinds of effort count – only those that have Raiders Stamp of Approval.
More things in this game need to be rewarding of skill, just like legendary armor will be, and just like the pvp backpeice is.
Again, pvp backpiece rewards skill only inasmuch as the skilled person will get it faster.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
I actually don’t even care about legendary armor, i’m just a strong believer in working for rewards. This generation has to be the laziest generation to yet exist. I’m part of it and I see it time and time again.
Then we don’t have any conflict. You want people to work for rewards, I want people to work for rewards,m and we can both agree that because this is a game, not a job, the players should enjoy the journey, so they should be able to do that work in content that they enjoy.
Actually, non raiders in this topic ARE demanding this legendary pré, in an easy / infantile way to cater their lazyness.
No, that’s just the slander people have accused us of. What we’re actually looking for is certainly an easier method than the current one, but not “infantile,” it would require just as much skill as the standard gameplay in the rest of the game, and not at all “lazy,” because it would actually involve MORE effort than the existing raids, due to more repetitions. It’s like the difference between lifting one 100lb. barbell once, verses lifting one 50lb. barbell three times. The latter person did more work, put in more effort, it was just at a more achievable level for him.
The problem with your proposal as I see it though is that the players are guaranteed legendary insights after x length of time. Raiders aren’t always guaranteed a kill unless they run with the same 10 people every week which isn’t always do able even for guilds.
They are also locked out at 6 per week maximum so whatever your proposal is, would also have to be locked at the same cap or less, if they earn the insights faster it will devalue raiding to a certain extent.
You’ve said a variety of things here that i’m going to fundamentally disagree with and vice versa, it’s clear we probably aren’t going to agree much on this topic. I get where you are coming from, but I think it’s fine as is, the current raid rewards are rather subpar, the only real reward to look forward to is the armor itself and the vipers trinkets.
The skins….while cool are just skins, by now almost everyone has ascended weapons so it really is kind of meaningless. Mini’s don’t really do anything at all….
I actually don’t even care about legendary armor, i’m just a strong believer in working for rewards. This generation has to be the laziest generation to yet exist. I’m part of it and I see it time and time again.
Then we don’t have any conflict. You want people to work for rewards, I want people to work for rewards,m and we can both agree that because this is a game, not a job, the players should enjoy the journey, so they should be able to do that work in content that they enjoy.
Actually, non raiders in this topic ARE demanding this legendary pré, in an easy / infantile way to cater their lazyness.
No, that’s just the slander people have accused us of. What we’re actually looking for is certainly an easier method than the current one, but not “infantile,” it would require just as much skill as the standard gameplay in the rest of the game, and not at all “lazy,” because it would actually involve MORE effort than the existing raids, due to more repetitions. It’s like the difference between lifting one 100lb. barbell once, verses lifting one 50lb. barbell three times. The latter person did more work, put in more effort, it was just at a more achievable level for him.
The problem with your proposal as I see it though is that the players are guaranteed legendary insights after x length of time. Raiders aren’t always guaranteed a kill unless they run with the same 10 people every week which isn’t always do able even for guilds.
They are also locked out at 6 per week maximum so whatever your proposal is, would also have to be locked at the same cap or less, if they earn the insights faster it will devalue raiding to a certain extent.
You’ve said a variety of things here that i’m going to fundamentally disagree with and vice versa, it’s clear we probably aren’t going to agree much on this topic. I get where you are coming from, but I think it’s fine as is, the current raid rewards are rather subpar, the only real reward to look forward to is the armor itself and the vipers trinkets.
The skins….while cool are just skins, by now almost everyone has ascended weapons so it really is kind of meaningless. Mini’s don’t really do anything at all….
Then clearly you should champion this cause aswell since when you cant raid with your normal group you can go the easy mode that week, to still progress.
Sorry you can’t just go out and buy your legendary so you can act cool ith no effort
Nobody’s asking for that. It’s just some people that claim that only effort they approve counts.
Yeah they are asking for that. That is exactly what they are asking for. Being rich does not equal skill, that’s exactly what Arena net have been trying to avoid with all the new legendaries.
As i said, you are using some extremely nonstandart definition of “effort”. No, skill in itself is not effort. In fact, having more skill results in exerting less effort.
Also, skill gates on all new legendary weapons and backpacks are really low.I never said effort =skill so im unsure why this was even quoted, I said that being rich does not = skill.
Ah, so you answered with something that had nothing to do with what i said before (seeing as i was speaking about effort, not skill or wealth).
No, people are not asking to buy legendaries. The people that suggest that option are, interesingly enough, mostly raiders. Nor are they asking to get them effortlessly – that again is only something that raiders mention, as a strawman.
It’s just that this fact keeps getting ignored, because apparently not all kinds of effort count – only those that have Raiders Stamp of Approval.More things in this game need to be rewarding of skill, just like legendary armor will be, and just like the pvp backpeice is.
Again, pvp backpiece rewards skill only inasmuch as the skilled person will get it faster.
I find it funny how you want to throw strawman around, Lately it seems as if it’s a fallacy to throw that around rather than refute the actual points being made. but fine, yes I did change the topic slightly. Even then that was only a small part of what I actually said though, but I digress. If you want to make the claim that raiders are the one saying these things i’m going to need a citation, because I haven’t seen one yet.
Also, you have absolutely no way of knowing if I’m even a raider or not. You’re just making assumptions because I don’t believe in giving away rewards for little effort. Raids at the moment are the hardest pve content in the game, Legendaries are the biggest shinies in the game. Therefore it’s only fitting you’d have to do the hardest content to get the best rewards, you cant just sit around and press 1 and expect legendaries to fall from the sky.
As for the backpiece, yes you can grind your way up to it, but that’s only because of poor design and implementation, you literally cannot fail getting to ruby 3 times for it because you can’t even lose tiers until ruby. This ranking system is not based on skill that is correct, but that’s only because of a poor design, come season 3 we’ll start seeing everyone with the backpack.
and my complaint there is the same, very little skill involved, all you do is grind through impossible to fail tiers. The armor doesn’t need to get the same treatment. As it currently stands, that and the new weapons are the only legendaries that take any amount of skill, which is wrong.
of course not all kinds of effort count, that’s an unrealistic thought to even have. You can put effort into many things, but that doesn’t mean you are going to get rewarded for something you didn’t put any into, nor should you be.
I actually don’t even care about legendary armor, i’m just a strong believer in working for rewards. This generation has to be the laziest generation to yet exist. I’m part of it and I see it time and time again.
Then we don’t have any conflict. You want people to work for rewards, I want people to work for rewards,m and we can both agree that because this is a game, not a job, the players should enjoy the journey, so they should be able to do that work in content that they enjoy.
Actually, non raiders in this topic ARE demanding this legendary pré, in an easy / infantile way to cater their lazyness.
No, that’s just the slander people have accused us of. What we’re actually looking for is certainly an easier method than the current one, but not “infantile,” it would require just as much skill as the standard gameplay in the rest of the game, and not at all “lazy,” because it would actually involve MORE effort than the existing raids, due to more repetitions. It’s like the difference between lifting one 100lb. barbell once, verses lifting one 50lb. barbell three times. The latter person did more work, put in more effort, it was just at a more achievable level for him.
The problem with your proposal as I see it though is that the players are guaranteed legendary insights after x length of time. Raiders aren’t always guaranteed a kill unless they run with the same 10 people every week which isn’t always do able even for guilds.
They are also locked out at 6 per week maximum so whatever your proposal is, would also have to be locked at the same cap or less, if they earn the insights faster it will devalue raiding to a certain extent.
You’ve said a variety of things here that i’m going to fundamentally disagree with and vice versa, it’s clear we probably aren’t going to agree much on this topic. I get where you are coming from, but I think it’s fine as is, the current raid rewards are rather subpar, the only real reward to look forward to is the armor itself and the vipers trinkets.
The skins….while cool are just skins, by now almost everyone has ascended weapons so it really is kind of meaningless. Mini’s don’t really do anything at all….
Then clearly you should champion this cause aswell since when you cant raid with your normal group you can go the easy mode that week, to still progress.
Which is kind of a problem, I feel as if it’s a cop-out. unless it took significantly longer to get insights, I don’t see it being a viable option.
I get where you are coming from, but I think it’s fine as is, the current raid rewards are rather subpar, the only real reward to look forward to is the armor itself and the vipers trinkets.
Then obviously the solution would be to make raid rewards not-subpar at the same time legendary armor and viper trinkets are made non-exclusive. Not to insist on that exclusivity (because, let’s be honest, as it is, once you’ll get your set, the generic rewards will still be subpar, and there would no longer be anything else to go for).
As for the backpiece, yes you can grind your way up to it, but that’s only because of poor design and implementation
That everyone can get it, but skilled people will get it faster was literally said in the blog that introduced us to the leagues. It’s not a bad implementation, but a design choice.
You can put effort into many things, but that doesn’t mean you are going to get rewarded for something you didn’t put any into, nor should you be.
Good then noone is actually asking for that.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
I get where you are coming from, but I think it’s fine as is, the current raid rewards are rather subpar, the only real reward to look forward to is the armor itself and the vipers trinkets.
Then obviously the solution would be to make raid rewards not-subpar at the same time legendary armor and viper trinkets are made non-exclusive. Not to insist on that exclusivity (because, let’s be honest, as it is, once you’ll get your set, the generic rewards will still be subpar, and there would no longer be anything else to go for).
They’ve already stated in living world 3 vipers trinkets are going to be a thing you can pick if you don’t want to raid for them, this leaves just legendary armor, I’m all for replacing it with something else though, provided it’s actually a good and useful reward that’s not just another skin or mini.
The problem is that it’s just a vicious cycle because even then you’ll have people complaining about whatever it’s replaced with.
The problem with your proposal as I see it though is that the players are guaranteed legendary insights after x length of time. Raiders aren’t always guaranteed a kill unless they run with the same 10 people every week which isn’t always do able even for guilds.
It’s risk verses reward. Hard mode would not be guaranteed a reward, but assuming they are any good at what they do, they will be able to relatively quickly move to a place where they are completing hard mode on a weekly basis, and thus advancing faster than the easy mode. Other raiders in this thread are indicating that pugs these days are pretty much guaranteed to beat the entire raid in 45 minutes (which is why we need to stop whining and git gud).
And keep in mind, hard mode raiders can do easy mode too if they like, and get the same rewards PLUS whatever they scrape out of hard mode. If you’re worried that easy mode will “spoil” hard mode for them, remember that easy mode would only be available a couple months after hard mode, so they would have plenty of time to work on hard mode before Easy is even an option.
They are also locked out at 6 per week maximum so whatever your proposal is, would also have to be locked at the same cap or less, if they earn the insights faster it will devalue raiding to a certain extent.
Obviously the lockout would be intended to balance. It could be the same “once per boss” lockout as hard mode, or, after some brainstorming, the idea was that perhaps it could be a daily lockout, but with a sufficiently reduced reward that you would need to run the easy mode around 5 times per week just to make 1/3 as much as in hard mode. This would help to account for the difference in difficulty without pushing the eventual reward into years down the line, if hard mode would let you get the armor in six months of work, then instead of taking eighteen months of once-weekly easy mode raids, it could maybe take nine months of nightly easy mode raids.
but I think it’s fine as is, the current raid rewards are rather subpar, the only real reward to look forward to is the armor itself and the vipers trinkets.
Then there’s no reason to defend them so vehemently. If you don’t care much about the existing rewards, then why fight against other people who do want them? But again, if people who raid believe that raids need MORE reward than they currently offer, that’s fine, I honestly don’t have a problem with that, so long as it’s stuff that could be gained elsewhere in reduced quantities.
It’s like if you have a job, and that job offers a certain salary and full medical and dental, and you’re saying “this job doesn’t offer enough salary, the full medical and dental is the only thing that makes it worth doing, so you can’t have any,” Well fair enough, I’d support you getting a salary raise to the point that the job is worth doing, I just want those perks too.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
WoW would be about 5% skill and 95% finding the other 19 people for mythic level raiding .
That’s correct. Whole point is – overwhelming majority of difficulty in raiding is not in doing things correctly by yourself, but ensure that encounter is being done correctly by whole group. Organization is a main difficulty multiplier in raiding games.
Main point of this whole thread – GW2 was absolutely not ready for raiding encounters. There is no culture of raiding AND severe lack of leaders to organize groups, and this leads to giant gap between raiding and majority of players. You cannot jump into hard content without learning how to participate in organized group, without learning your role in encounters and unlike wow there is no already existing experienced raid leaders, no organized raid culture to help you fit in, no entry-level raids and encounters to help you learn roles (really, when I reading all those “it’s a waste of resources” its just a one giant facepalm). Whole organization thing is barely covered, and THIS is why people is unhappy, this is your brick wall everyone bash they head into. I’m absolutely sure that there is LOT more people who want to raid, but organization gap deny them from it. And this must be fixed as soon as possible.
meaning Mythic would be easier
Mythic is harder because whole organization thing is harder. Encounters are way more tight and demanding.
ironically memorizing patterns and how best to react to them along with 9 others is more challenging than you would think. I agree in an ideal world this takes no skill, but we are humans, humans make mistakes.
If you don’t know your rotation you have no business doing high level content, it’s clear that you’d have a lot of learning to do. I say your logic is bad because raiders put in the effort needed to actually kill the boss. Therefore you deserve the rewards, if you don’t put in even that amount of effort you deserve nothing.
Raiders are putting an effort into memorizing a few predetermined patterns, watching a predetermined set of conditions and reacting accordingly their predetermined role (as example, due to severely reduced predetermination high-level pvp encounter will take a lot more skill than high level pve one for same amount of players, and that statement stays correct for almost every game). Whole thing is make everyone doing that properly and in sync with encounter, aka organization. There is a some amount of skill, ofc, because your group aren’t robots and you have to react on some unexpected situations sometimes if someones is doing their job bad, plus some elements of random in some of the boss abilities, plus amount of attention you need to monitor and react during the encounter, and whole thing becoming easier and easier as you memorize more things and group organization improves due to learning.
But main point still stays – organization is more important than your personal skill. Experienced group of average players who know how to do this encounter smoothly will do it much better and faster than group of good players who have no idea what’s going on.
Kiijna, Xast, Satis Ironwail, Sekhaina, Shira Forgesparkle, Sfeno, Nasibi, Tegeira, Rhonwe…
25 charracters
25 charracters
I get where you are coming from, but I think it’s fine as is, the current raid rewards are rather subpar, the only real reward to look forward to is the armor itself and the vipers trinkets.
Then obviously the solution would be to make raid rewards not-subpar at the same time legendary armor and viper trinkets are made non-exclusive. Not to insist on that exclusivity (because, let’s be honest, as it is, once you’ll get your set, the generic rewards will still be subpar, and there would no longer be anything else to go for).
They’ve already stated in living world 3 vipers trinkets are going to be a thing you can pick if you don’t want to raid for them, this leaves just legendary armor, I’m all for replacing it with something else though, provided it’s actually a good and useful reward that’s not just another skin or mini.
The problem is that it’s just a vicious cycle because even then you’ll have people complaining about whatever it’s replaced with.
Can you give a link were they stated that was rewarded for living story s3 please.
I get where you are coming from, but I think it’s fine as is, the current raid rewards are rather subpar, the only real reward to look forward to is the armor itself and the vipers trinkets.
Then obviously the solution would be to make raid rewards not-subpar at the same time legendary armor and viper trinkets are made non-exclusive. Not to insist on that exclusivity (because, let’s be honest, as it is, once you’ll get your set, the generic rewards will still be subpar, and there would no longer be anything else to go for).
They’ve already stated in living world 3 vipers trinkets are going to be a thing you can pick if you don’t want to raid for them, this leaves just legendary armor, I’m all for replacing it with something else though, provided it’s actually a good and useful reward that’s not just another skin or mini.
The problem is that it’s just a vicious cycle because even then you’ll have people complaining about whatever it’s replaced with.
Can you give a link were they stated that was rewarded for living story s3 please.
It was from the AMA I think.
But I’ll +1 him, I’ve read the same information as well, that LS3 will help distribute ascended trinket with the new stats.
EDIT: It’s easier to search AMA result from dulfy =p
http://dulfy.net/2016/03/05/gw2-developer-ama-on-reddit/
This part:
My question is this: Are you planning on making ascended gear available to everyone WITHOUT having to do raids? For example, getting ascended viper jewelry. I thought a core idea for GW2 was to make all gear available to all players in the game style they prefer (fractals, WvW, open world, raids, SPvP)? I can understand having exclusive rewards for raids, but feel those should be cosmetic like exclusive skins and mini’s — not equipment.
Living World Season 3 should open some avenues for non-raiders to gear up with ascended equipment. This should also allow non-raiders to get the gear/stat combinations that are currently only available in the raids, like jewelry with the new HoT combinations.
It was from the AMA I think.
But I’ll +1 him, I’ve read the same information as well, that LS3 will help distribute ascended trinket with the new stats.EDIT: It’s easier to search AMA result from dulfy =p
http://dulfy.net/2016/03/05/gw2-developer-ama-on-reddit/This part:
My question is this: Are you planning on making ascended gear available to everyone WITHOUT having to do raids? For example, getting ascended viper jewelry. I thought a core idea for GW2 was to make all gear available to all players in the game style they prefer (fractals, WvW, open world, raids, SPvP)? I can understand having exclusive rewards for raids, but feel those should be cosmetic like exclusive skins and mini’s — not equipment.Living World Season 3 should open some avenues for non-raiders to gear up with ascended equipment. This should also allow non-raiders to get the gear/stat combinations that are currently only available in the raids, like jewelry with the new HoT combinations.
Ah Thank you for the link. That was the thing I was the most uncomfortable with…new combinaison gear / stat locked behind raids.
It was from the AMA I think.
But I’ll +1 him, I’ve read the same information as well, that LS3 will help distribute ascended trinket with the new stats.EDIT: It’s easier to search AMA result from dulfy =p
http://dulfy.net/2016/03/05/gw2-developer-ama-on-reddit/This part:
My question is this: Are you planning on making ascended gear available to everyone WITHOUT having to do raids? For example, getting ascended viper jewelry. I thought a core idea for GW2 was to make all gear available to all players in the game style they prefer (fractals, WvW, open world, raids, SPvP)? I can understand having exclusive rewards for raids, but feel those should be cosmetic like exclusive skins and mini’s — not equipment.Living World Season 3 should open some avenues for non-raiders to gear up with ascended equipment. This should also allow non-raiders to get the gear/stat combinations that are currently only available in the raids, like jewelry with the new HoT combinations.
Ah Thank you for the link. That was the thing I was the most uncomfortable with…new combinaison gear / stat locked behind raids.
Yes thanks for the link its good that one of the two issues are being worked on.
You’re deliberately breaking the analogy to show that it is broken. Congratulations on completely missing the point.
No I’m not, but congratulations on completely missing the point.
The point is, people can only currently sell raids because there is a market for it.
Yes, exactly like how services which aid people can sell their services because there is a market for it. A mechanic can assist someone with services on their car further reiterating my point.
There is only a market for it because raids are harder than the accepted standard for this game. If raids were not harder than the accepted standard for the game (either the only raid or an easier version of the raid), then there would be no market for selling raid slots.
Economics 101
People who sell raid slots are exploiting a situation that does not have to exist, and are actively fighting to prevent that imbalance from being solved. That is wrong, end of story.
People who sell raids are offering a service to those who refuse to raid. The people agreeing to pay money to have this service are well aware of what they are doing. They don’t need your protection buddy. This is wrong. End of story. I can’t fix my own transmission. Does that mean if I get a mechanic to do it he is exploiting me?
Because “service” and “favor” are not synonyms. A favor can be a service, but a service is not a favor unless it is FREE. If you charge someone to do it, it cannot be a favor.
I disagree. You pay a mechanic to fix your car. He’s doing you a favor. You order a pizza. That delivery driver is doing you a favor. You need your roof fixed. You pay a team which is doing you a favor. You seem to be a part of society that assumes they automatically deserve services. This is obvious. Do you know what the definition of insanity is? It’s probably boarder-lining this topic. Want to know the best part? Overall I am right, as nothing is going to be done to raids no matter how many hundreds of hours you spend here compared to my 30-40 hours spent raiding. Insanity…. Just promise you say “thank you” after receiving services and not “I can’t thank you because you owe me this and services mean you aren’t doing my any favors buddy.”
(edited by Avarice.2791)
You’re deliberately breaking the analogy to show that it is broken. Congratulations on completely missing the point.
No I’m not, but congratulations on completely missing the point.
The point is, people can only currently sell raids because there is a market for it.
Yes, exactly like how services which aid people can sell their services because there is a market for it. A mechanic can assist someone with services on their car further reiterating my point.
There is only a market for it because raids are harder than the accepted standard for this game. If raids were not harder than the accepted standard for the game (either the only raid or an easier version of the raid), then there would be no market for selling raid slots.
Economics 101
People who sell raid slots are exploiting a situation that does not have to exist, and are actively fighting to prevent that imbalance from being solved. That is wrong, end of story.
People who sell raids are offering a service to those who refuse to raid. The people agreeing to pay money to have this service are well aware of what they are doing. They don’t need your protection buddy. This is wrong. End of story. I can’t fix my own transmission. Does that mean if I get a mechanic to do it he is exploiting me?
Because “service” and “favor” are not synonyms. A favor can be a service, but a service is not a favor unless it is FREE. If you charge someone to do it, it cannot be a favor.
I disagree. You pay a mechanic to fix your car. He’s doing you a favor. You order a pizza. That delivery driver is doing you a favor. You need your roof fixed. You pay a team which is doing you a favor. You seem to be a part of society that assumes they automatically deserve services. This is obvious. Do you know what the definition of insanity is? It’s probably boarder-lining this topic. Want to know the best part? Overall I am right, as nothing is going to be done to raids no matter how many hundreds of hours you spend here compared to my 30-40 hours spent raiding. Insanity…. Just promise you say “thank you” after receiving services and not “I can’t thank you because you owe me this and services mean you aren’t doing my any favors buddy.”
No thats not how favors work a favor is me covring a colleges shift and not taking payment for it.
Doing your jobb is not doing favors for people your jobb is directed to.
I dont have to say thank you for paying you to do a jobb, if you did it for free that thank you is in order yes.
The point is, people can only currently sell raids because there is a market for it.
This is how market works?
There is only a market for it because raids are harder than the accepted standard for this game. If raids were not harder than the accepted standard for the game (either the only raid or an easier version of the raid), then there would be no market for selling raid slots.
Interesting. Do you have a link? I could not find any official difficulty standard list.
People who sell raid slots are exploiting a situation that does not have to exist, and are actively fighting to prevent that imbalance from being solved.
Exploiting what? Supply and demand? Why supply and demand should not exist? Who are they fighting? Arena net is against raid selling? What is going on?
That is wrong, end of story.
What is wrong? Selling goods and services when there is a demand?
So food…Best food is expensive (but i don’t think you know what food we’re using, go look at toxic sharpenning Stones for example).
LoL, I, like anyone who can invest 10 gold into crafting, have a 400 ranked Chef. Nothing is that expensive to make.
Anyway, why would you use Toxic Sharpening Stones? a power and condition based food sounds less effective then just using a straight up Power food.
Dude, seriously. If you don’t know anything about some stuff, stop pretending like you know that stuff, it doesn’t help your case.
As for food costs, the most basic foods (truffle steak + sharpening stone) costs 25s each, which totals to 50s. However some professions like elementalist and condition-based class used more expensive foods like Toxic Focusing Crystal which costs 70s or Seaweed Salad Bowl which costs 50s.
Yeah, if you’re good you’ll probably only need 2 of each foods to clear the entire wing. But really, no one ever runs raid for the gold reward, like no one ever do WvW for the gold reward.
Two Points:
Toxic Focusing Crystals which I can make, and I use on my Necro, for WvW, cost roughly 70 Silver for 5 of them, mainly due to the Crystalline Dust, as I have never had to actually buy the spore samples because they drop from a harvesting node.
Raid for the Gold I am sure you all turn a grand profit, just like I do when I run Fractals, even tho I needed to invest a lot of Gold into in Agony, Food, Oils, Potions, and that is not even addressing all the Ascended Gear & Items needed, which, as many of you have said, are not in fact needed for the raid.
Please spare us all your sob story about how much it costs to run a raid that drops gear has a net worth of 100+ Gold attached to it, along with a ton of other special and unique rewards.
It’s pitiful that you all still cling to some need for an ego boost to lock Legendary Collections behind the raid as well.
And Honestly, if you are going to bring up the Fractal Back Item, I Run fractals because they are fun and profitable not to stroke my kitten over a back item, if you are not doing that for the raid, you’re doing it for the wrong reasons.
According to gw2spidy, it costs 2.35 gold to make 5 toxic focusing crystals. And 5 toxic focusing crystals sell for 3.74 gold on the tp.
The ascended drops do not drop every time, and their value is not fungible. If I get an ascended dagger drop, but I already have one, then the drop is worth 0 gold to me, despite that it would take 80-100 gold to craft a new one.
It’s possible to make a profit off raids, but I think you are overstating by how much. It all depends on how quickly you beat the bosses (so you use less food). Even so, you could probably make more gold in silverwastes, if you spent the same amount of time. And, the bosses have a weekly lock out, so the rewards are not as repeatable.
So most raiders are not in it for the gold. There are much better ways of making gold in this game.
No thats not how favors work a favor is me covring a colleges shift and not taking payment for it. Doing your jobb is not doing favors for people your jobb is directed to. I dont have to say thank you for paying you to do a jobb, if you did it for free that thank you is in order yes.
I bet people love you in the service industry… Look, I don’t even know where this become favor vs service. It’s one of Ohani’s enjoyments where he brings a topic around and around and around varying it each time. Essentially trolling this thread. It’s an endless loop which results in 100’s of pages stating the same thing over… and over… and over… I’m arguing against the point that was raised that a service is equal to exploiting because that is absolutely ridiculous. I represent the status quo. I represent moving Dev effort to other parts of the game such as Living Story, the next expansion, NEW CONTENT. I do not want more Dev attention on raiding despite the fact that I enjoy raiding thoroughly. If you are arguing for different difficulty modes in raids then you are essentially, inadvertently, arguing for less new content.
Because “service” and “favor” are not synonyms. A favor can be a service, but a service is not a favor unless it is FREE. If you charge someone to do it, it cannot be a favor.
I love calling people out on fallacies and poor arguements, CHECK THIS OUT:
Favor definition:
an act of kindness beyond what is due or usual.
“I’ve come to ask you a favor”
synonyms: service, good turn, good deed, kindness, act of kindness, courtesy
“will you do me a favor?”
Service definition:
the action of helping or doing work for someone.
“millions are involved in voluntary service”
synonyms: favor, kindness, good turn, helping hand; More
SOURCE: THE DICTIONARY
So, nothing else needs to be said on this, unless Ohoni and Linken, you’d like to claim you know more than a dictionary.
There is only a market for it because raids are harder than the accepted standard for this game. If raids were not harder than the accepted standard for the game (either the only raid or an easier version of the raid), then there would be no market for selling raid slots.
Interesting. Do you have a link? I could not find any official difficulty standard list.
Don’t bother looking for reason or sources in this thread of toxicity. Everything that needed to be said was said on page one or two. Not 22… or the other thread with 17+ pages… or the other 50 pages of threads on this topic with the same people commenting. A mod really needs to lock these.
(edited by Avarice.2791)
Raid for the Gold I am sure you all turn a grand profit, just like I do when I run Fractals, even tho I needed to invest a lot of Gold into in Agony, Food, Oils, Potions, and that is not even addressing all the Ascended Gear & Items needed, which, as many of you have said, are not in fact needed for the raid.
Please spare us all your sob story about how much it costs to run a raid that drops gear has a net worth of 100+ Gold attached to it, along with a ton of other special and unique rewards.
It’s pitiful that you all still cling to some need for an ego boost to lock Legendary Collections behind the raid as well.
And Honestly, if you are going to bring up the Fractal Back Item, I Run fractals because they are fun and profitable not to stroke my kitten over a back item, if you are not doing that for the raid, you’re doing it for the wrong reasons.
Raids for gold income lol. Seriously. Just because a guild showed you can raid in exotics doesn’t mean that every raider salvaged every ascended gear they had. The group of people that did clear the raid in exotic raid in ascended. Everything you listed for fotm are not needed either. Outside of some fotm you can dodge the AR attacks, you don’t need food or oil and if you do dodge the AR attacks you don’t need ascended gear. Plus in fotm you can also get rewards of up to 100g (btw you can’t salvage ascended items to get the based materials back so who cares how much they are worth).
Raids generate income once a week, fotm generate income everyday.
RP enthusiast
No thats not how favors work a favor is me covring a colleges shift and not taking payment for it. Doing your jobb is not doing favors for people your jobb is directed to. I dont have to say thank you for paying you to do a jobb, if you did it for free that thank you is in order yes.
I bet people love you in the service industry… Look, I don’t even know where this become favor vs service. It’s one of Ohani’s enjoyments where he brings a topic around and around and around varying it each time. Essentially trolling this thread. It’s an endless loop which results in 100’s of pages stating the same thing over… and over… and over… I’m arguing against the point that was raised that a service is equal to exploiting because that is absolutely ridiculous. I represent the status quo. I represent moving Dev effort to other parts of the game such as Living Story, the next expansion, NEW CONTENT. I do not want more Dev attention on raiding despite the fact that I enjoy raiding thoroughly. If you are arguing for different difficulty modes in raids then you are essentially, inadvertently, arguing for less new content.
Because “service” and “favor” are not synonyms. A favor can be a service, but a service is not a favor unless it is FREE. If you charge someone to do it, it cannot be a favor.
I love calling people out on fallacies and poor arguements, CHECK THIS OUT:
Favor definition:
an act of kindness beyond what is due or usual.
“I’ve come to ask you a favor”
synonyms: service, good turn, good deed, kindness, act of kindness, courtesy
“will you do me a favor?”Service definition:
the action of helping or doing work for someone.
“millions are involved in voluntary service”
synonyms: favor, kindness, good turn, helping hand; MoreSOURCE: THE DICTIONARY
So, nothing else needs to be said on this, unless Ohoni and Linken, you’d like to claim you know more than a dictionary.
There is only a market for it because raids are harder than the accepted standard for this game. If raids were not harder than the accepted standard for the game (either the only raid or an easier version of the raid), then there would be no market for selling raid slots.
Interesting. Do you have a link? I could not find any official difficulty standard list.
Don’t bother looking for reason or sources in this thread of toxicity. Everything that needed to be said was said on page one or two. Not 22… or the other thread with 17+ pages… or the other 50 pages of threads on this topic with the same people commenting. A mod really needs to lock these.
And neither of those statments say you should get paid for it, voluntary service, good kind, helping hand its not something you get paid for again.
If I buy a cup of coffie I pay for it no need to thank the person for doing their jobb, if they see oh its so little left might aswell give this guy the last as refill before a brew another I say thank you since its an favor or as dictonary says act of kindness beyond what is due or usual.
Edit read the boldend part of Ohonis post again it clearly says a service can be a favor if its free.
(edited by Linken.6345)
If I buy a cup of coffie I pay for it no need to thank the person for doing their jobb, if they see oh its so little left might aswell give this guy the last as refill before a brew another I say thank you since its an favor or as dictonary says act of kindness beyond what is due or usual.
Edit read the boldend part of Ohonis post again it clearly says a service can be a favor if its free.
The definition of a “favor” is not a “free service” or “a service under the assumption that one party is receiving nothing on return.” This is a made-up rule/definition created by Ohoni that differs from the actual definition. Simply because someone on the Internet states something without backing it up, does not make it true. “an act of kindness beyond what is due or usual.” is essentially what the 9 people are doing who carry a player through a run. What is the alternative? Well, the alternative is what you guys are advocating against, actually raiding. This is what is “due or usual.” Not payment.
You should be thanking that kind person for brewing you a cup of coffee as they are doing you a FAVOR/SERVICE. There is nowhere that says a favor is not a favor under the condition that the person committing a favor is not receiving anything in return. The fact that you think you shouldn’t thank the person making you coffee, carrying you through a run, working on your house, holding the door for you and taking your coat, waiting the table you are eating at, etc, is literally what is wrong with society today but that discussion has zero relevance to this thread and let’s try not to derail this thread which has had every possible component of discussion taken care of.
It’s beyond me that you’re trying to contradict the literal definition which leads us back to our initial point which Ohoni was implying that this service is merely a way for some to exploit the weak, which is even more absurd since the weak are not tossing out 90-280g for boss kills.
“Stand here and do NOTHING while we CLEAR this content for you.”
“But, but you’re taking advantage of meeee!”
“How so? You don’t like raiding, you never plan on raiding, you have thousands of gold.” “Some random guy on the forums told me this.”
“Ok, get out, we don’t even want your 90g/9 for the hours of work we put into this multiplied by 9.”
(90g divided to the 9 players carrying. Hours of work multiplied by the 9 players who put the effort in to learn the fight. (90g == hours worked * 9)) So, let’s say you spend three hours learning VG. Multiply those hours by 9 for total hours worked (not counting the tenth since they aren’t present for the paid carry.) So, you have 27 hours worked for roughly $9, assuming $10=800 gems. Or, alternatively 3 hours worked for roughly 90 cents. Such a steal. That’s 30 cents for an hour’s worth of work boys.
(edited by Avarice.2791)