Guild Wars 2

Gear != build. Gear != role. Role && build == traits && skills.

You can have many roles/builds with zerker. Just check out the ele meta, with d/f, s/d, and staff providing completely different roles and playstyles (all high damage, but one with more general utility, one with might stacking, one with ‘highest’ dps and fire field uptime). Check out the guardian meta, with hammer options for providing protection, or sword/focus + greattsword for pure damage.

There are plenty of diverse builds and roles. They all happen to use zerker, because zerker just means “I am comfortable with active defenses in the game and do not need passive ones.” That is all that zerker means.

FPS games are pretty much nothing but active defenses, and they still manage to deliver a radically different role experience from Medic to Assault to Sniper.

You’ve got to be able to segregate the simple application of buffs and debuffs from actual-honest-to-god support and control roles.

chaosgrimm.5837:

Enaretos.8079:

Think for a minute. I’ve been talking about rampagers for a reason. All the other condition damage sets bear defensive stats. These shouldn" get near a full zerker build at all ! All condition builds are viabl btw, you can do your dungeon just fin, just don’t expect to be fast. Rampager could get the buffs I talked about but not the other sets.

The point about defensive stats is valid, on the other hand… its pve. You could also point out that zerkers arent equal. thief gets medium armor, rangers get range, etc. If the amount of hits that you’re able to take should always be countered by lower dps, then thieves should be king instead of wars. I wouldnt be opposed to a new condition armor if it is that big of an issue.

“Guys, it’s PvE, so it risk-reward balance doesn’t matter and no one should put a bit of effort into completing any of its content”.

Also, do you seriously believe that the reason people prefer warriors to thieves is related to pure damage?

maxinion.8396:

Role && build == traits && skills.

Technically speaking, I dont think you meant this, but who cares about operator precedence and semantics anyway lol.

maxinion.8396:

You can have many roles/builds with zerker. Just check out the ele meta, with d/f, s/d, and staff providing completely different roles and playstyles (all high damage, but one with more general utility, one with might stacking, one with ‘highest’ dps and fire field uptime). Check out the guardian meta, with hammer options for providing protection, or sword/focus + greattsword for pure damage.

now do necro…
6/x/x/x/6 with 2 points to help you diversify!!!

and look at the wonderful weapon selection:
dagger/warhorn and axe / focus
OR!!!!!
dagger/focus and axe / warhorn

maxinion.8396:

There are plenty of diverse builds and roles. They all happen to use zerker, because zerker just means “I am comfortable with active defenses in the game and do not need passive ones.” That is all that zerker means.

You have won me over. I will now be running scepter/dagger and staff with zerker gear instead of the above. Dungeons are fine!!!

All fear the zerkditionmancer!!!

Your sarcasm is bad, now feel bad.

FenrirSlakt.3692:

“Guys, it’s PvE, so it risk-reward balance doesn’t matter and no one should put a bit of effort into completing any of its content”.

Also, do you seriously believe that the reason people prefer warriors to thieves is related to pure damage?

yeah cause you gotta have super hard core skills to run zerker well right? I love how ppl seem to love prancing around like they’re leet b/c of zerker gear. It’s not that hard… Im shocked by the number of ppl who are like: “You dont like zerking? you must be bad at it?” No. It’s boring… it’s stale… and unfortunately with current game mechanics, its the only thing players should be rolling with for dungeons.

and to answer your question, no and that was kinda the point of the post…

chaosgrimm.5837:

maxinion.8396:

Role && build == traits && skills.

Technically speaking, I dont think you meant this, but who cares about operator precedence and semantics anyway lol.

maxinion.8396:

You can have many roles/builds with zerker. Just check out the ele meta, with d/f, s/d, and staff providing completely different roles and playstyles (all high damage, but one with more general utility, one with might stacking, one with ‘highest’ dps and fire field uptime). Check out the guardian meta, with hammer options for providing protection, or sword/focus + greattsword for pure damage.

now do necro…
6/x/x/x/6 with 2 points to help you diversify!!!

and look at the wonderful weapon selection:
dagger/warhorn and axe / focus
OR!!!!!
dagger/focus and axe / warhorn

maxinion.8396:

There are plenty of diverse builds and roles. They all happen to use zerker, because zerker just means “I am comfortable with active defenses in the game and do not need passive ones.” That is all that zerker means.

You have won me over. I will now be running scepter/dagger and staff with zerker gear instead of the above. Dungeons are fine!!!

All fear the zerkditionmancer!!! Commence running around in circles.

a warning though, I hear circle zerking for too long can make you go blind.

Yes, my operator overloading is bad and I should feel bad. But you understood what I meant.

Necro is a bad class. No one is arguing this. There are no options, as it is a matter of finding the least bad build. But that doesn’t change the fact that most other classes have many different roles and options. Another example: warrior. The warrior can spec for full DPS, team support with Empower Allies, or sacrifice personal DPS to maintain might stacks on team with Phalanx Strength. All three are viable options, which depend on your team composition and slot you into very different roles on the support-DPS spectrum. The Phalanx build even gives up the pure DPS gear (Scholar Runes) for boon-support (Strength Runes and sometimes Strength Sigil instead of Force)— here’s a bit of gear diversity, even. Mesmer is the same story— you can spec for full reflection to provide more team support at the cost of personal DPS, or you can spec for full damage to maximize your burst potential (there are actually 7 or so viable trait compositions, the best of which depends on your encounter and the type of group you’re with).

I’m not sure what your point about zerkditionmancer is, you’re getting fairly incoherent here. Is this a complaint that conditions aren’t viable? Yes, that’s annoying and ANet should fix it (as it would help Necro a lot as well). I don’t think anyone argues against that. No good player, zerker or otherwise, runs around like a chicken with his head cut off anyway, so I’m not sure what you’re getting at there.

Lalangamena.3694:

there will be hope for dungeons when:

They get a new person in charge of them.

ALL ABOARD THE QUOTE TRAIN!

chaosgrimm.5837:

Saint.5647:

Berserker isn’t a build. It’s a gear set. There isn’t gear variety in speed clears because those players DO NOT NEED the survivability of Knights, Clerics, w/e else.

I referred “zerker” as a “build type”. zerker is a type / category of build. This context is used all the time… “Zerkers Only” does not mean spec your necromancer for conditions, but wear a berserker set…

Sure, but if we’re going to discuss this, we should be using the right terminology to avoid misunderstandings. There are times when I will alter my build for more options while still maintaining my Berserker’s gear. There are situations where a DPS drop is reasonable to accomplish something else easier.

chaosgrimm.5837:

Saint.5647:

There is plenty of build variety though. Players swap in and out certain traits for certain encounters pretty often. If you feel like running a different team comp, you shuffle traits around to achieve the same results. The best build variety is seen in team comps. It’s like a 5 man puzzle of traits and utilities. THAT’S what makes this game so fun.

No. It’s like different brands of bottled water… slightly different tastes, but it’s still bottled water.

What would be so wrong about a condition build being able to offer as much as a zerker?

Nothing would be wrong with it. I wish it were as useful in PvE. I have had an idea of ‘tiers’ for condition stacking in PvE. So, similarly to maintaining time/intensity on boons, you could stack condis. to ‘overflow’ into a more powerful condi. (E.g. 25 stacks of bleeding = deep wound for X effect). Of course PvE only no need for more condi. in PvP. I think it would be an interesting mechanic to explore but this doesn’t mean that there isn’t already depth to the system as it is.

chaosgrimm.5837:

Saint.5647:

That is what people who don’t understand are trying to destroy. Most of these posts boil down to “I want to play a healer but I also want to be speed clear fast.” Sorry, it doesn’t work that way. In GW1, it did. It also didn’t promote much build variety. _LFG Monk for 40 minutes. “Monk, what are you running?” Better be WoR, or HB, or w/e the current meta was"

GW1 was great with build diversity. Been a long time since ive played, but just a quick search back at PvX
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Great_working_general_builds
several builds for each profession considered to be great by the community for general PvE

Well, PvX wiki was a place for players to pick up builds that were viable. Many players got one and would NEVER alter to suit the occasion. However, GW1 had over 1300 skills. GW2 doesn’t even come close. Again, ‘Zerker’ is not a build. Berserker’s is a gear set. Out of the skills in GW2, there are many viable ones and many optimal ones for certain situations. If you are one of those players who goes on PvX wiki for a ‘one size fits all build’, and you’re building badly.

chaosgrimm.5837:

Saint.5647:

You can contribute just fine as a ‘debuffer’ by removing weakness, confusion ,etc…

swing and a miss xD.

Not sure what you mean, but I don’t think I swung for anything there. If you’re not cleansing weakness and trying to put out a high spike during it, you’re not doing it right. There is a place for supportive play. It just doesn’t need to be a role of its own. A good player can do both.

chaosgrimm.5837:

Saint.5647:

Of course you can do this while you contribute damage as well. What does that mean? It means you need to be paying attention to attacks to dodge, as well as your Party UI to manage the ‘debuffs’… That takes playing at a higher skill level than playing a back-line ‘debuff remover’ or ‘healer’. There is no room in this game for such a passive and useless role.

I run zerker on pretty much all dungeon runs anymore, it isnt exactly hard, its just boring. All zerker all the time… Is there a problem with adding more roles to this “role playing game”? I guess I just wasnt aware that the R in RPG, referred to a single role.

Not sure why you are not able to get this. You don’t play ‘Zerker’. You play a class. You play a role with that class. If you have 4 players each able to cap/stack vuln on a mob, do you all trait for it? No. You don’t. Because it’s a waste of a trait :P That’s smart building. So your role is very dependent on your team. Are you cycling reflects? Are you bringing utilities for pulls? Etc… There are many roles within a team that members sacrifice personal DPS/utility for. The EA Warrior is a great example of this as well.

chaosgrimm.5837:

Saint.5647:

Condis. and CC also have plenty of uses in both dungeons and fractals if you choose to employ them. None of them require you to gear for them though.

Fractals arent as bad as regular dungeons on this. The problem is if you gear for anything other than a zerker role, you’re usually worse off.

Both make use of CC and condis. Certain group play-styles may not make room for it, but it doesn’t mean you cannot use them in a smart manner. No, they don’t require you gear for them. If you’re looking for something like the Jungle Wurm Husks where you need Condi teams, then no…that isn’t in the dungeons. Would I like to see it? Idk…maybe. It could be cool…but at the same time it would suck to have to spam the LFG looking for ‘need 2 condi necro to go’…it really ruins the way the game is accessible imo.

chaosgrimm.5837:

Saint.5647:

This game is very play how I want. I can play on my Ele, my Guard, my Warrior, my Thief, etc… Each class has some very cool things it can do. Each weapon set has some specific uses that a clever player can learn or even discover new ones.

Ah, you forgot to add: “so long as it falls under ‘zerker’”.

Yuussssss

Vox Hollow.2736:

FPS games are pretty much nothing but active defenses, and they still manage to deliver a radically different role experience from Medic to Assault to Sniper.

You’ve got to be able to segregate the simple application of buffs and debuffs from actual-honest-to-god support and control roles.

The game already does this pretty well. But most of the playerbase doesnt understand the game and likes to complain. There deffo needs to be some improvements. But thats more to do with class balance and improving condition damage roles in pve.

chaosgrimm.5837:

FenrirSlakt.3692:

“Guys, it’s PvE, so it risk-reward balance doesn’t matter and no one should put a bit of effort into completing any of its content”.

Also, do you seriously believe that the reason people prefer warriors to thieves is related to pure damage?

yeah cause you gotta have super hard core skills to run zerker well right? I love how ppl seem to love prancing around like they’re leet b/c of zerker gear. It’s not that hard… Im shocked by the number of ppl who are like: “You dont like zerking? you must be bad at it?” No. It’s boring… it’s stale… and unfortunately with current game mechanics, its the only thing players should be rolling with for dungeons.

and to answer your question, no and that was kinda the point of the post…

Soooo …
A) Facetanking is more skillful than zerking.
B) Zerking is the less worse option.

Which one is true in your opininon.
Fun is a different thing. Personally i don’t find facetanking enjoying in the slightest way.

compacted some snippets of ur post here, hope you dont mind.

Sure, but if we’re going to discuss this, we should be using the right terminology to avoid misunderstandings. There are times when I will alter my build for more options while still maintaining my Berserker’s gear. There are situations where a DPS drop is reasonable to accomplish something else easier.
…
Again, ‘Zerker’ is not a build. Berserker’s is a gear set.
…
Not sure why you are not able to get this. You don’t play ‘Zerker’. You play a class. You play a role with that class.

You’re reading what you want to read. Did a find function to see if i maybe slipped used the words ‘zerker build’ anywhere and have not…. I have said build type. I have said I run zerker. both are are acceptable. I have not referred to it as a specific build…. dont know what to tell you here. zerker is a build type and is used in that context all the time.

Saint.5647:

Well, PvX wiki was a place for players to pick up builds that were viable. Many players got one and would NEVER alter to suit the occasion. However, GW1 had over 1300 skills. GW2 doesn’t even come close. … Out of the skills in GW2, there are many viable ones and many optimal ones for certain situations. If you are one of those players who goes on PvX wiki for a ‘one size fits all build’, and you’re building badly.

PvX at least back in my day was fine. Sure, not 100% ideal in ever situation and needed to be tinkered with on occasion, but the builds were respectable. Ever game that has a loadout/build site has players that call it bad regardless of the quality, for what seems to be nothing more than some bias against lack of originality. Ex: if you have a build you claim to be better than a FOTM pvp build, post it somewhere. There should be no shortage of ppl telling you its not…. OR should it be seen as better, it will likely be posted on a build site as FOTM / Meta, and the site will still be talked about as a bad place to get builds. I guess this is kind off topic though. The point is that the community in gw1 did recognize a substantial amount of builds as more than just viable.

Saint.5647:

chaosgrimm.5837:

Saint.5647:

You can contribute just fine as a ‘debuffer’ by removing weakness, confusion ,etc…

swing and a miss xD.

Not sure what you mean, but I don’t think I swung for anything there. If you’re not cleansing weakness and trying to put out a high spike during it, you’re not doing it right. There is a place for supportive play. It just doesn’t need to be a role of its own. A good player can do both.

A debuffer applies debuffs. I would have also accepted a misunderstanding in which you thought the role of a debuffer was to remove buffs from enemies.

Saint.5647:

it would suck to have to spam the LFG looking for ‘need 2 condi necro to go’…it really ruins the way the game is accessible imo.

I’m not arguing this at all. I am not saying that condition specs need to be “needed”. Zerkers arent “needed” after all. It is about moving away from zerking being the only way to efficiently run a dungeon.

Dalanor.5387:

Soooo …
A) Facetanking is more skillful than zerking.
B) Zerking is the less worse option.

Which one is true in your opininon.
Fun is a different thing. Personally i don’t find facetanking enjoying in the slightest way.

C) Zerking is the only efficient option.

You dont have a problem with zerker but you like zerking. I would imagine you probably run comparable loadouts in other games, because that is your style of play. I would also imagine that in the other games that you’ve played, there were acceptable builds that didnt focus on power/crit/crit dmg / equivalent stats and direct dmg. Personally, id like to see some acceptable condition builds on par with zerker builds. But for the sake of argument, let’s say dungeon system was design in such a way that made ‘facetanking’ the undisputed most efficient way to run a dungeon, and the LFG tool was littered with “Facetankers only.” You would either be forced to:
A) play a type of build you didnt enjoy, or B ) make substantially less profit from running slower, being kicked from runs, or not being able to meet the requirements of a group

chaosgrimm.5837:

You dont have a problem with zerker but you like zerking. I would imagine you probably run comparable loadouts in other games, because that is your style of play. I would also imagine that in the other games that you’ve played, there were acceptable builds that didnt focus on power/crit/crit dmg / equivalent stats and direct dmg. Personally, id like to see some acceptable condition builds on par with zerker builds. But for the sake of argument, let’s say dungeon system was design in such a way that made ‘facetanking’ the undisputed most efficient way to run a dungeon, and the LFG tool was littered with “Facetankers only.” You would either be forced to:
A) play a type of build you didnt enjoy, or B ) make substantially less profit from running slower, being kicked from runs, or not being able to meet the requirements of a group

Seems like you have absolutely no idea how this game works and any attempts to convience you is wasting our breath.

But… Don’t we already “facetank” everything, including “hard” bosses like Lupi? Even (good) rangers have to go melee.

You’re still not getting it though Grim! I’ll try here one more time :P

Berserker’s is a gear set. It’s not a build. Alone, it means nothing except some stat numbers. Your gear is one small part of a build. That build includes, weapons (because weapons=skills), traits, and utilities as well. Let’s not argue semantics though. That’s a waste of time for us both and doesn’t really say anything of note.

I don’t disagree that condi specs could use some more lovin’ in PvE. Hehe also I kept imagining your debuffer role as a de-debuffer. Probably because so many people come here crying for healers :P We do have condis though that are useful to apply on mobs. I think this serves the same purpose. You don’t need to be spec’d for it and I certainly don’t want to see encounters that REQUIRE these debuffs.

You don’t NEED to run a DPS setup and have Zerker gear. You can do w/e in w/e setup. Requiring a debuffer is not fun for a lot of people (LFG Debuffer to go 4/5).

I played GW1 since launch. That PvX site was filled with as much garbage as it was with reputable builds. It also had no expiration on builds. Again, GW1 had over 1300 skills. Yet maybe 3-5 builds that were commonly run for each class with a little variation in ‘niche situation’ skills. Don’t kid yourself and think that you could run w/e trash you wanted in GW1. Speed clear community in GW1 was just as (if not more) inaccessible to the casual gamer. GW2 is a much more forgiving game, and much more reliant on ACTIVE player skills. GW1 was all about the builds and the rotations.

In GW2 you see players solo champs in Quaggan tonics and with 14/14/etc… setups. In GW1 you DID need certain skills and builds a lot more. Yes you could run a healer monk, prot, or smiter…GL not using certain skills though. “Oh you’re a Necro? MM or SS or Kick… Orders for some things too and you better not run anything else.”

It’s not bad in this game man.

berserker is only one of many requirements to deal dmg.
moreover, u need weapons, traits! and a little bit skill.

is there any hope for dungeons in gw2? not for me.
dungeons are too easy. and as long as anet dont care about difficult dungeon content, we wont get it.

Saint is GODLIKE!
RAMPAGE!!!

Sorry, I couldn’t resist the pun.

petyr baelish.9675:

yayuuu.9420:

Currently Might given by Empower lasts 10 seconds while “blasted” might lasts 20 seconds. It should be at least reversed, so the Empower can give might for 20 seconds while blasted might lasts only 10 seconds. Increasing radius of blasted boons would on the other hand make some use of the ranged classes.

Most of the stuff you write is questionable at the least. But how on earth can even you think might gained by the press of a single button should be superior to might that requires some setup and puts several skills on cooldown? An increased radius is nowhere near a fair trade-off.
And why should we buff the support provided by a class that’s already most dominant in the ‘support role’ while simultaneously nerfing the support other classes can give? Think about all the support staff eles who will become even less popular with your suggested change. This change would limit diversity even more.

Skills like empower are unique to a specific class and weapon set. Unique skills should be superior compared to skills that every or almost every class can do.

Also I wouldn’t nerf eles. I would buff their supportive abilities, make auras last longer, give boons applied by Elemental Attunement higher range.

This way people would want staff guardians to give them empower, they would want hammer guardians to give them protection and they would want 2h sword guardians to do damage and pull enemies in one place. They would also want eles to give them auras and so fury and protection with them for like 10s at least. They would also want them to stack various boons. There’s a lot of things that classes can do with their unique skills, but it’s all nothing compared to fire field that a lot of classes can throw and blasts that a lot of classes can spam a lot. It’s a nice addition, but it shouldn’t be anything more that just addition.

yayuuu.9420:

Skills like empower are unique to a specific class and weapon set. Unique skills should be superior compared to skills that every or almost every class can do.

That’s your take. However, what it would mean is that professions would be harder to balance. It would also mean even more grist for the “LF1M Prof X only” mill.

The game already does this pretty well. But most of the playerbase doesnt understand the game and likes to complain. There deffo needs to be some improvements. But thats more to do with class balance and improving condition damage roles in pve.

I can’t say as though I’ve ever felt like I’ve broken away from the DPS role in this game.

When other games* use the word ‘role’, they’re giving you radically different combat goals and new tools in order to help you achieve the new goal they set forth. In GW2, I feel like the game presents me with the same goal all the time, and I just get new tools for the sake of getting new tools.

It just doesn’t mean anything without the actual core perspective shift and a different mechanical superstructure to interact with.

/*(dps-hybridized ones like FPS and MOBA included.)

IndigoSundown.5419:

yayuuu.9420:

Skills like empower are unique to a specific class and weapon set. Unique skills should be superior compared to skills that every or almost every class can do.

That’s your take. However, what it would mean is that professions would be harder to balance. It would also mean even more grist for the “LF1M Prof X only” mill.

Not if all prefessions will have their advantages. Some prefessions can fit better in some parties and then people will require that specific profession, but isn’t it like that already?

My point is that a party with any 5 different professions should be good. If you invite 2 guardians, you are a bit weaker but still if these 2 guardians run with a different builds, it’s fine.

Anyway you are right, that’s my take and it’s not even te most important part of my post.

People have kind of missed the point of the post and started thinknig its about builds and what not when it was really about “The same stacking strategies or mob skipping is the majority of paths. Pretty much the average dungeon nowadays is pulling the last boss into the middle of the wall so he doesnt hit you and then pressing 1 while you afk.”

Stacking.

A lazy gamer’s best friend.

But on a more serious note, I do agree they don’t give much reward. However, if dungeon completions starts giving out, let’s say, 10 rares, then the rares price on TP and their overall value would decrease. Isn’t that so?

So I’m wondering what kind of “better rewards” people want, really.

Avascar.9237:

Stacking.

A lazy gamer’s best friend.

But on a more serious note, I do agree they don’t give much reward. However, if dungeon completions starts giving out, let’s say, 10 rares, then the rares price on TP and their overall value would decrease. Isn’t that so?

So I’m wondering what kind of “better rewards” people want, really.

Most people are sick of 2 blues and a green. 2 greens and a blue on the other hand..

Actually, your suggest of nerfing field combos nerfs ALL professions reliant on field blasting, most importantly, engineers. Field blasting is better by design because it requires more motions, adding more pressure to players. Not to mention that it also makes parties mindful of their actions, because a mistimed field CAN mess up a lot of options available.

Honestly? They should improve on cross-profession combos more, but I don’t have ideas on where to start aside from adding combo-improvement traits to classes that need it the most.

Advent Leader.1083:

Actually, your suggest of nerfing field combos nerfs ALL professions reliant on field blasting, most importantly, engineers. Field blasting is better by design because it requires more motions, adding more pressure to players. Not to mention that it also makes parties mindful of their actions, because a mistimed field CAN mess up a lot of options available.

Honestly? They should improve on cross-profession combos more, but I don’t have ideas on where to start aside from adding combo-improvement traits to classes that need it the most.

When did I actually suggest that? lol. Combo fields are great, they shouldnt be removed, all ive really said is that they need to improve dungeons so you can’t stack your way through every dungeon. Put interesting mechanics into bosses, most of them are very dull already. One reason everything is stacked is because of the lack of mechanics. A lot of bosses may hit very hard or “apply bleeding” or “cc” when those are all negligible. Those are not mechanics, and whoever designed these dungeon boss mechanics should know better.

I didn’t mean you, SM, I meant yayyuu. To suggest of making a single-action skill much more powerful is really… meh.

Horrorscope.7632:

Lalangamena.3694:

there will be hope for dungeons when:

They get a new person in charge of them.

They get a at least someone in charge of them.

SkylightMoon.1980:

People have kind of missed the point of the post and started thinknig its about builds and what not when it was really about “The same stacking strategies or mob skipping is the majority of paths. Pretty much the average dungeon nowadays is pulling the last boss into the middle of the wall so he doesnt hit you and then pressing 1 while you afk.”

Which bosses behave like that?

haviz.1340:

SkylightMoon.1980:

People have kind of missed the point of the post and started thinknig its about builds and what not when it was really about “The same stacking strategies or mob skipping is the majority of paths. Pretty much the average dungeon nowadays is pulling the last boss into the middle of the wall so he doesnt hit you and then pressing 1 while you afk.”

Which bosses behave like that?

The champion knight in TA.

No Pulse.2967:

haviz.1340:

SkylightMoon.1980:

People have kind of missed the point of the post and started thinknig its about builds and what not when it was really about “The same stacking strategies or mob skipping is the majority of paths. Pretty much the average dungeon nowadays is pulling the last boss into the middle of the wall so he doesnt hit you and then pressing 1 while you afk.”

Which bosses behave like that?

The champion knight in TA.

Which is clearly bugged as he stops attacking altogether, it’s not just that he can’t hit you. Any other boss pulled this way doesn’t stop attacking (see pretty much every dungeon in the game). The only valid example I can think of is the Ooze in Arah p1.

The TA knight not attacking has nothing to do with stacking in general. It’s just that the tree bugs him. It’s kind of an exploit.

LoS him to another wall and he will attack.

So using this boss as an example misses the point by a few miles.

Try harder.

@ dutchiez

Even the ooze in arah p1 is not a good example imo. It works because you are on another layer where his earthquakes won’t get you as you aren’t on the same floor as he is.

It works not because you stack, it works because you are not on the same floor which is a big difference (and again, has nothing to do with stacking in general). It’s rather a stupid boss design. The ooze should be able to hit you up there, should be able to follow you or the thingy which you climb should be deleted.

Acerola.6407:

The TA knight not attacking has nothing to do with stacking in general. It’s just that the tree bugs him. It’s kind of an exploit.

LoS him to another wall and he will attack.

So using this boss as an example misses the point by a few miles.

Try harder.

The example he gave is exactly what was asked for, he isn’t wrong. There are bosses that can break when you LoS them (by stacking), and it is a problem. It doesn’t matter if it’s conditional, the point is that it’s standard and it’s game breaking. Obviously this doesn’t mean that stacking needs to be fixed. Bad AI needs to be fixed.

Though, just because there are some examples which prove SkyLights statement true; he’s obviously using hyperbole and I don’t know why people bother to take his arguments seriously. It’s flame baiting at it’s finest and you people bite every time.

Look at the Liadri boss fight. It was great and designed very well.
And yet, people whined and moaned for weeks because it was too hard.
(And dont start with the poor camera, bad connection or bugs, I played and won on my laptop playing from EU on NA server. )

If they were to add a dungeon with similar difficulty, you’d see masses of people come and complain how difficult and unfair it is because they can’t do something that’s clearly not designed for them.

Personally, I’d love see EXTREMELY difficult UW/DoA/FoW like dungeon.
EXTREMELY punishing, long and rewarding.

But that’s very unlikely to happen. Must cater to those auto attacker players who refuse to dodge or learn the mechanics. (Marionette boss fight, even after two weeks people were unable to win, it was pathetic.)

Dungeons were a lot more fun back when people didn’t know to stack like they do now. GW2 has its fair share of problems, but this is by far the largest one to me. It’s a real bummer because 5mans are my favorite part of MMOs, but the only MMOs I can currently stand are WoW/GW2, both of which have crippling issues with dungeons these days.

Rework dungeons so that stacking isn’t the go-to strategy for 95% of all encounters, and make them more rewarding to compensate for the extra time/difficulty. How do you rework it? I dunno, I’m not a game designer and I’m not going to spend hours pondering something that I can’t affect. But something needs to be done.

It’s gotten to the point where skipping is the only fun part of dungeons because you’re doing something other than sitting still mashing your dps buttons with your camera awkwardly stuck against a corner where you probably can’t see anything. I’m honestly fine with being pigeonholed into one or two builds. That’s MMOs for ya. I’m fine with being stuck using berserker gear. None of that is ideal, but it doesn’t ruin everything. It’s just the stacking in place and wrecking bosses/trash before they can do much of anything that ruins it.

yayuuu.9420:

Just to give you example of how can this work, I’ll summon the mighty AC Spider.
Let’s say that our party is 1x ranger, 1x elementalist, 1x warrior, 1x thief and 1x mesmer. We have 2 melee classes, 1 partially melee and partially ranged (mesmer) and 2 ranged. Elementalist and Ranger can play full glass cannon and avoid poison circles staying a bit away. Warrior will get constant beating by spider’s fast melee attacks, but elementalist can throw some heals on him to keep his HP up, Thief can use his pistol whip to be immortal and heal himself. Mesmer can stay melee, but after he loose some HP, he can fall back and play ranged until his HP regenerates.

See, this right here is how dungeons used to be in the early days when we were mostly clueless and didn’t all know to stack melee. It was a lot of fun.

@Cookie

of course it’s true. I just wanted to make clear that these are exceptions which work due to several reasons (let’s say LoS / stacking + issues with the spots in relation to the lured boss)

Let me troll: you don’t need to stack to bug them. 1 person is enough to LoS them there, thus bugging it out.

Easiest and laziest fix to AI: if AoE → move out of AoE.

Nick.6972:

Easiest and laziest fix to AI: if AoE -> move out of AoE.

So the boss is pretty much supposed to be perma-dodging, since almost any attack in this game is AoE?

CptAurellian.9537:

Nick.6972:

Easiest and laziest fix to AI: if AoE -> move out of AoE.

So the boss is pretty much supposed to be perma-dodging, since almost any attack in this game is AoE?

Not dodging, just moving. They could even copypasta it from centaurs or something.

No Pulse.2967:

CptAurellian.9537:

Nick.6972:

Easiest and laziest fix to AI: if AoE -> move out of AoE.

So the boss is pretty much supposed to be perma-dodging, since almost any attack in this game is AoE?

Not dodging, just moving. They could even copypasta it from centaurs or something.

So every boss would turn into ‘run around in circles and spam 1 till he dies’?

Play high level FOTM, Uncategorized Fractal, the two bosses that spawn after killing rabbit, they constantly move around and you have to dodge their attacks all the time or they’ll 1 hit you.

Every boss move around if you move around. It’s rather obvious.

No Pulse.2967:

CptAurellian.9537:

Nick.6972:

Easiest and laziest fix to AI: if AoE -> move out of AoE.

So the boss is pretty much supposed to be perma-dodging, since almost any attack in this game is AoE?

Not dodging, just moving. They could even copypasta it from centaurs or something.

Simple consequence: A good bunch of builds, which are competitive right now, get screwed (like hammer guardian, staff ele, whatever …), while other meta builds don’t give a kitten. Isn’t everyone on this forum crying that build diversity should be increased instead of removed completely? So yeah, brilliant idea …

SkylightMoon.1980:

Still no build diversity in PVE. The same stacking strategies or mob skipping is the majority of paths. Pretty much the average dungeon nowadays is pulling the last boss into the middle of the wall so he doesnt hit you and then pressing 1 while you afk.

Anet has really made little comment on this, I don’t see much point on them ever adding another dungeon in the game if its going to continue to be like this. Especially since people will get bored with it. Part of these problems obviously come from the lack of trinity in guild wars 2, while others are just entire paths that have mobs which lack any mechanic whatsoever. If there is one thing that will hinder this game in my opinion, its probably these problems.

The crit damage nerf didn’t do anything, if they planned on it affecting pve, well it backfired and thats more apparent now than ever.

Hm, agreed. I think we need actively challenging PvE – the sort of challenge you would have in a duel in PvP, in contrast to just doing the same ol’ tactics.
Since you mention the Trinity (I’ll assume that you mean GW2’s combat trinity, and not the old holy trinity) and the lack of mechanics on mobs:

… Perhaps a way of achieving and “active” challenge is to design mechanics for mobs and bosses which makes it crucial to utilizing the Trinity; Mobs could randomly start doing a big heal or a huge, devastating attack and thus need to be interrupted?
(I think it might be better to have a temporary immunity to CC that triggers after a CC, rather than the current Defiant-system).

You can create a lot of diversity here =)
Some could have a big weakness towards Torment, making it a brilliant idea to kite them around, or a weakness towards Retaliation, making Light fields good.

To add Support, the final part of the Trinity, there could be a big play of attrition, perhaps ticking away percentages of your health (maybe in addition to normal damage), making healing and regeneration a more viable option.

I would personally love it if they went down this road – perhaps in a “hardmode” version of the current dungeons (which would save them a lot of time). Might be wrong on this, but isn’t PvE lacking in challenging content, first and foremost?

Phadde.7362:

Might be wrong on this, but isn’t PvE lacking in challenging content, first and foremost?

It does lack the challenge but your ideas are an antithesis of challenge.

haviz.1340:

Phadde.7362:

Might be wrong on this, but isn’t PvE lacking in challenging content, first and foremost?

It does lack the challenge but your ideas are an antithesis of challenge.

Hm, perhaps. I’m no content designer.

haviz.1340:

SkylightMoon.1980:

People have kind of missed the point of the post and started thinknig its about builds and what not when it was really about “The same stacking strategies or mob skipping is the majority of paths. Pretty much the average dungeon nowadays is pulling the last boss into the middle of the wall so he doesnt hit you and then pressing 1 while you afk.”

Which bosses behave like that?

I’ll name a few. Spider queen(her attacks hit super hard but stacking so tight makes her attacks hit into the wall so they miss you), most of the mob pulls in AC work like this, and obviously the last boss the howling king. You can stack him on p1 and p3, even though its harder on p1 if you are not all zerker. SE, the golem bosses halfway through. Frost from Caudecus manor(sort of). Hes not completely in the corner but you are able to get away with sitting high up in this little corner so that you take no damage and are able to range him. TA knight but someone already mentioned this. These are the ones off the top of my head.

Obviously one thing that would kill stacking is putting mechanics into a boss like I mentioned before. When I look at more of the recent content Anet’s put out (TA path one, some fractals), you start to see more mechanics within the bosses in some places at least, and this seems to counter the ability to get away with stacking. As far as I know you can’t stack any of the bosses in TA aether.

Is there a spot in Dungeon Bingo for people using spider queen or AC as their examples?

Her range attack is not used at melee. Her melee is still used and should still be dodged. If you’re not getting hit, thank your guardian. Her melee will still hit you. You are not invincible in that corner. Try it yourself. Don’t bring a party to carry you. Stack on her, press 1, don’t dodge anything, see how it does.

The TA Knight is bugged at the tree. That isn’t a result of stacking but rather bad AI. AFK ranging frost…or ANY boss is also buggy. I don’t know why PuGs don’t consider THIS tactic an exploit. Maybe because they can actually do this one?

The SE Golems are stacked for because doing it any other way would require killing them each separately. Why do this when you can cleave instead? A stupid complaint. There is nothing making you LOS them either….

The Howling King is not the AC boss in 1 and 3. A lazy reskin though he may be, he is not the same boss in each path. People stack him because they want to melee him. Again….you can do this ANYWHERE in the room. Just because you see some video of a certain LOS spot stack, doesn’t mean it’s some magical winning spot.