Practice Raid mode
There’s already a way to practice the raid.
It’s called doing the raid.
You have only speculated what might happen because other raiding MMOs have had this issue. Other Raiding MMOs had an expiration date on when their raid content becomes obsolete, GW2 does not.
This is a valid point, however considering how raiding works in other MMOs GW2 will have entirely different issues compared to them. Let’s take a look at WoW for example. With every new expansion they release a new set of raids and they try to spread the minority of players intrested in them. Since the number of raids could be considered a constant they don’t need to worry about trying to spread the playerbase too thin.
Right now with every new expansion the old raids become obsolete. If that wasn’t the case and they would raise every raid’s level they ever released to the maximum they would have an insane amount of raids people could run. I doubt even WoW’s raiding population would be enough to support that. Not even half of it.
But this is the case we have in GW2. No matter how many raids we will have in the future it should be expected the old raids to be still runned, because the nature of GW2 doesn’t make them obsolete. The number of raids isn’t a constant here, however the playerbase running them could be. If we don’t make changes to existing raids to make more people intrested at the same time we get new raids , sooner or later the playerbase won’t be able to support the amount if raids we will have.
This isnt the case now as we only have 1 raid. And when it becomes a problem you just solve it by adding rewards/incentives on the older raids for people to run it, it doesnt have nothing to do with easy / training raids.
I already made my points why I don’t see that as a solution in the other thread.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Different-Raid-Difficulty-Would-Satisfy-Most/page/16#post6319702
Point 3.
No gear-treadmill is an argument for single difficulty.
Can you elaborate?
No gear-treadmill is an argument for single difficulty.
Can you elaborate?
I’ll quote myself (from the same post)
Since there’s no gear treadmill, causal and hardcore raiders are literally on the same level.
Plus, raids only get easier as time passes.
- It’s much easier to learn raids if you’re surrounded by expreienced players
- There’s resources—including guides, guilds, and learning runs—to help new players
- Future elite specs could make the encounter easier
No gear-treadmill is an argument for single difficulty. Players can hop into this content right now, and forever.
Essentially, all content gets easier over time, and there’s no rush to beat the content. You can beat the content 1 year from now and be rewarded with still-useful stuff.
No gear-treadmill is an argument for single difficulty.
Can you elaborate?
I’ll quote myself (from the same post)
Since there’s no gear treadmill, causal and hardcore raiders are literally on the same level.
Plus, raids only get easier as time passes.
- It’s much easier to learn raids if you’re surrounded by expreienced players
- There’s resources—including guides, guilds, and learning runs—to help new players
- Future elite specs could make the encounter easier
No gear-treadmill is an argument for single difficulty. Players can hop into this content right now, and forever.Essentially, all content gets easier over time, and there’s no rush to beat the content. You can beat the content 1 year from now and be rewarded with still-useful stuff.
As far as I know WoW just released a new expac with 2 raids. Which of these points can’t be applied to them?
-It will be much easier to do them if you are surrounded by experienced players.
-There’s resources—including guides, guilds, and learning runs—to help new players
-Future updates will make the encounters easier
-You can beat the content 1 year from now and be rewarded with still-useful stuff.
These points you made have nothing to do with having gear-grind or not. If anything, a model without gear-grind requires higher participation rates because no content will ever become obsolete. And considering this even WoW , the most well known gear-grind MMO uses various systems to increase participations.
No gear-treadmill is an argument for single difficulty.
Can you elaborate?
I’ll quote myself (from the same post)
Since there’s no gear treadmill, causal and hardcore raiders are literally on the same level.
Plus, raids only get easier as time passes.
- It’s much easier to learn raids if you’re surrounded by expreienced players
- There’s resources—including guides, guilds, and learning runs—to help new players
- Future elite specs could make the encounter easier
No gear-treadmill is an argument for single difficulty. Players can hop into this content right now, and forever.Essentially, all content gets easier over time, and there’s no rush to beat the content. You can beat the content 1 year from now and be rewarded with still-useful stuff.
As far as I know WoW just released a new expac with 2 raids. Which of these points can’t be applied to them?
-It will be much easier to do them if you are surrounded by experienced players.
-There’s resources—including guides, guilds, and learning runs—to help new players
-Future updates will make the encounters easier
-You can beat the content 1 year from now and be rewarded with still-useful stuff.These points you made have nothing to do with having gear-grind or not. If anything, a model without gear-grind requires higher participation rates because no content will ever become obsolete. And considering this even WoW , the most well known gear-grind MMO uses various systems to increase participations.
In WoW you start to raid with a lower tier gear, therefore it’s more difficult to start, In Guild Wars you potentially start with the highest tier gear, so the only thing between you and success is you.
No gear-treadmill is an argument for single difficulty.
Can you elaborate?
I’ll quote myself (from the same post)
Since there’s no gear treadmill, causal and hardcore raiders are literally on the same level.
Plus, raids only get easier as time passes.
- It’s much easier to learn raids if you’re surrounded by expreienced players
- There’s resources—including guides, guilds, and learning runs—to help new players
- Future elite specs could make the encounter easier
No gear-treadmill is an argument for single difficulty. Players can hop into this content right now, and forever.Essentially, all content gets easier over time, and there’s no rush to beat the content. You can beat the content 1 year from now and be rewarded with still-useful stuff.
As far as I know WoW just released a new expac with 2 raids. Which of these points can’t be applied to them?
-It will be much easier to do them if you are surrounded by experienced players.
-There’s resources—including guides, guilds, and learning runs—to help new players
-Future updates will make the encounters easier
-You can beat the content 1 year from now and be rewarded with still-useful stuff.These points you made have nothing to do with having gear-grind or not. If anything, a model without gear-grind requires higher participation rates because no content will ever become obsolete. And considering this even WoW , the most well known gear-grind MMO uses various systems to increase participations.
Experienced players have less reason to run raids after a while as the rewards are iLvl increase, and after they get it there is not much, at GW2 we have ascended box for example where we can choose an really big amount of combinations of stats ( that will increase with new expansion), so you will never have all the ascended stats, so there will be at least this reason to always run raids after getting all the skins.
And in wow future updates make the content easier AND obsolete. In gw 2 with new builds it will be easier AND NOT obsolete.
And finally after 1 year of the raid release, its not usefull stuff anymore as you can get almost equal gear by a lot of other ways.
So GW2 raids and WoW raids have a really big difference because of gear trendmil.
at GW2 we have ascended box for example where we can choose an really big amount of combinations of stats ( that will increase with new expansion), so you will never have all the ascended stats, so there will be at least this reason to always run raids after getting all the skins.
Except Legendaries have access to all stat combinations. If you have a full set of legendary, then what?
And in wow future updates make the content easier AND obsolete. In gw 2 with new builds it will be easier AND NOT obsolete.
This is exactly the issue. In WoW they don’t have to care wether old raids are populated or not, in GW2 they do.
And finally after 1 year of the raid release, its not usefull stuff anymore as you can get almost equal gear by a lot of other ways.
I don’t think as many people care about item level there as you think. I’ve played WoW between Burning Crusade and Lich King and people still ran old raids. Are mounts not useful? Armor/weapon skins? Perhaps not , but people were intrested in them. I might be wrong but I’ve heard there is some kind of wardrobe system there now making old skins worth a lot more. I bet a lot of people are taking down Illidian now to get that skin for their Demon Hunters.
So GW2 raids and WoW raids have a really big difference because of gear trendmil.
And I never said they weren’t, only that the two game has different reasons to implement variable difficulties and you could argue in which game is it more important to have one.
Except Legendaries have access to all stat combinations. If you have a full set of legendary, then what?
I don’t think as many people care about item level there as you think. I’ve played WoW between Burning Crusade and Lich King and people still ran old raids. Are mounts not useful? Armor/weapon skins? Perhaps not , but people were intrested in them. I might be wrong but I’ve heard there is some kind of wardrobe system there now making old skins worth a lot more. I bet a lot of people are taking down Illidian now to get that skin for their Demon Hunters.
First not a lot of people will have the legendary armor, because there is a lot of gold involved, and you get very little gold on Raids, then having more than 1 set??
So i bet most of people will still want it. And they can easily add things like sigils/runes bought with Mag Shards, so still a reason to run. So as i said previously, when they want people to play older content they just need to look at rewards, as of now they are in a good place so 0 reason to change it.
Second, people run old raids for mount because they cant get the mounts on the current expansion, as the easier mode dont give any mounts, so they need to wait for the next expansion to release, then they go to older content on the max difficult and solo a content that was done by a 25-man raid ( So all the epic feeling of the raids die right there ).
So, today we have reason to run raids, and in the future? If the current rewards are not enought, A-Net will just change the rewards so people will run it.
Still 0 reason to easier versions of the raid.
I still think the best practice raid mode is playing the raid itself in a training context. It doesn’t make sense to me to dull the mechanics of the fight and call it a ‘practice’ mode when that kind wouldn’t even remotely prepare you for the actual encounter.
[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!
And they can easily add things like sigils/runes bought with Mag Shards, so still a reason to run. So as i said previously, when they want people to play older content they just need to look at rewards, as of now they are in a good place so 0 reason to change it.
Everyone seemed to agree in the past to lock stat combinations behind the raid was a bad idea on Anet’s part. Runes and sigils wouldn’t be different. So are new stat combinations.
Second, people run old raids for mount because they cant get the mounts on the current expansion, as the easier mode dont give any mounts, so they need to wait for the next expansion to release, then they go to older content on the max difficult and solo a content that was done by a 25-man raid ( So all the epic feeling of the raids die right there ).
Probably you are right, I’m not that familiar with the WoW raiding system, but the thing is people get to experience the content if they wait enough. One more thing though. When the current expansion was the Lich King it wasn’t possible to solo raids from Burning Crusade as far as I can remember. It still needed at least a dungeon worth of players.
So, today we have reason to run raids, and in the future? If the current rewards are not enought, A-Net will just change the rewards so people will run it.
Still 0 reason to easier versions of the raid.
And I already made my points why I don’t see that working , you didn’t answer those yet. Furthermore how do you think they should do it? If they increase the amount of stuff you could purchase with shard for example most people will have enough to buy it straight away and will have no reason to run the content.
If they add in more exclusives they risk alienating the playerbase who doesn’t raid already.
If they increase the gold/material income they risk on breaking the economy , or if the changes aren’t enough people won’t care.
Shortly, I still don’t see touching the rewards as a solution ( As I explained in the previous thread too)
Shortly, I still don’t see touching the rewards as a solution ( As I explained in the previous thread too)
Well without even thinking to much, one thing they could do is just add a weekly reward structure just like Fractals Daily ( Do molten boss, or do May trin would translate to Do Wing X of Raid Y ), many people still do these really old fractals because of the daily, people would do really old raids because of the weekly (as daily rewards for raids would be overwhelming)
Second, people run old raids for mount because they cant get the mounts on the current expansion, as the easier mode dont give any mounts, so they need to wait for the next expansion to release, then they go to older content on the max difficult and solo a content that was done by a 25-man raid ( So all the epic feeling of the raids die right there ).
Probably you are right, I’m not that familiar with the WoW raiding system
Why are you making arguments based on WoW if you don’t know the system?
I don’t know that much about the WoW raiding system either. I was under the impression that when a new expansion comes out, the level cap increases and there is a new tier of gear.
That won’t happen in Guild wars 2. There’s no rush to experience the content (as it’s meant to be played), because you can always do it. Contrast that to WoW, where it’s (presumably) a ghost town on most raids, unless there’s a peculiar reward. Even then, I don’t think soloing a 25 person instance is how the content is meant to be experienced.
If you want to argue that “all content should be experienced by all players,” go ahead. But keep in mind that’s not how the majority of content in gw2 operates.
Why are you making arguments based on WoW if you don’t know the system?
Simple. The topic was gear-grind raid and you failed to make a decent argument , I just used WoW as an example since it is well known.
I don’t know that much about the WoW raiding system either. I was under the impression that when a new expansion comes out, the level cap increases and there is a new tier of gear.
That is pretty much it, we don’t need to know more than that to make an argument based on it. Also as far as I know they made systems like LFR , scaling instances based on number of people and stuff like that even though the number of available max level raids are always 2-5.
That won’t happen in Guild wars 2. There’s no rush to experience the content (as it’s meant to be played), because you can always do it.
You mean you can always do it, as long as there are 9 other people who want to do it. This is where the issue is. How hard will it be to find 9 other people or even a guild 1, 2 , 3 years from now on? If you try and spread the playerbase too thin there won’t be enough people to run anything
Why are you making arguments based on WoW if you don’t know the system?
Simple. The topic was gear-grind raid and you failed to make a decent argument , I just used WoW as an example since it is well known.
I don’t know that much about the WoW raiding system either. I was under the impression that when a new expansion comes out, the level cap increases and there is a new tier of gear.
That is pretty much it, we don’t need to know more than that to make an argument based on it. Also as far as I know they made systems like LFR , scaling instances based on number of people and stuff like that even though the number of available max level raids are always 2-5.
That won’t happen in Guild wars 2. There’s no rush to experience the content (as it’s meant to be played), because you can always do it.
You mean you can always do it, as long as there are 9 other people who want to do it. This is where the issue is. How hard will it be to find 9 other people or even a guild 1, 2 , 3 years from now on? If you try and spread the playerbase too thin there won’t be enough people to run anything
They dont have scalling system based on the number of people, they have 10 man instance and 25 man instance thats it. They dont scale if you have lets say 9 man.
They do different difficulty so players have gear trendmill to go by. Before that on BC they didnt have it, so the gear trendmill was based on another grind system and because of it the number of people that were raid ready was really low as it took an huge amount of time to be ready to meet the dps check of raids. This is the reason of difficulty scalling.
And a proof that you are wrong is the raid is getting old, and its always getting easier to get a group for it. So in GW2 with time a lot more people getting experienced with raids encounter making it easier to form a group, not harder. So 3 years from now it will probably be really easy to kill VG as that will be a lot of probably OP comps for VG with new specs, and a lot of people will be experienced on Raid type of content.
Now you ask for changes thinking 3 years from now? You want to change something thats working because of your assumption of how it will be from 3 years from now? Thats non sense.
They dont have scalling system based on the number of people, they have 10 man instance and 25 man instance thats it.
http://wow.gamepedia.com/Flexible_Raid
This article must be wrong then.
Now you ask for changes thinking 3 years from now? You want to change something thats working because of your assumption of how it will be from 3 years from now? Thats non sense.
Yeah, because what do you think which is easier, rework 1 year of work or to rework 4? If we reach the point when they need to do the latter, they may consider abandoning raids, which I don’t want
They dont have scalling system based on the number of people, they have 10 man instance and 25 man instance thats it.
http://wow.gamepedia.com/Flexible_Raid
This article must be wrong then.
Now you ask for changes thinking 3 years from now? You want to change something thats working because of your assumption of how it will be from 3 years from now? Thats non sense.
Yeah, because what do you think which is easier, rework 1 year of work or to rework 4? If we reach the point when they need to do the latter, they may consider abandoning raids, which I don’t want
Well i didnt know of the flexible as its not current in the game description ( i’m playing legion ) but after searching for a bit you can find a great number of posts hating the system, as it make it not balanced around any number of player ( actually it just make it a mess );
GW1 didnt have difficulty scale for its end game (FoW , UW….), it IS a bad system for end game. A-Net didnt add difficulty system for dungeons. Only fractal have it because it was the orignal plan.
Raids is working, and will work as people still do FoW and UW on GW1, there wont be need for a rework 4 years from now. So yeah bad idea.
The Flexible Raid system is one of the failed systems WoW attempted to do back in Mists of Pandaria in order to ‘ease raiding onto raiders’.
Turned into a big mess, this thread sums it up nicely, and honestly I am feeling some deja vu about some of the arguments…
http://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/8882348824
If you didn’t care to read much into it, Blizzard went with Boss mechanics scaling based upon the group-size, after utilizing their ‘group-finder’ system to get a big enough group. There would be multiple instances of the same raid, boss abilities got tweaked, etc. Players complained about how certain comps group-finder would make were not optimal, they would complain that certain boss mechanics weren’t working between say a 10-man version of that encounter to the 15-man version of that encounter. Dev mentions that some of the behavior does sound odd, some players question why would they need to go this far when a group-finder does enough of the job? Min-max talk, Flexible Raid is broken, and so on.
Mind you, this thread is years old, but the discussion is still relevant.
This is why I continue to deny this ‘easy-mode’ or ‘practice’ mode, because it is an utter waste of time and resources, and can do much more harm than good.
Leave. Raids. Alone.
Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”
The Flexible Raid system is one of the failed systems WoW attempted to do back in Mists of Pandaria in order to ‘ease raiding onto raiders’.
Turned into a big mess, this thread sums it up nicely, and honestly I am feeling some deja vu about some of the arguments…
http://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/8882348824If you didn’t care to read much into it, Blizzard went with Boss mechanics scaling based upon the group-size, after utilizing their ‘group-finder’ system to get a big enough group. There would be multiple instances of the same raid, boss abilities got tweaked, etc. Players complained about how certain comps group-finder would make were not optimal, they would complain that certain boss mechanics weren’t working between say a 10-man version of that encounter to the 15-man version of that encounter. Dev mentions that some of the behavior does sound odd, some players question why would they need to go this far when a group-finder does enough of the job? Min-max talk, Flexible Raid is broken, and so on.
Mind you, this thread is years old, but the discussion is still relevant.
This is why I continue to deny this ‘easy-mode’ or ‘practice’ mode, because it is an utter waste of time and resources, and can do much more harm than good.
Leave. Raids. Alone.
Then ANet should just drop raids because it is a waste of time and resources.
5x Warrior, 5x Ranger, 4x Elementalist, 4x Engineer,
4x Necromancer, 3x Mesmer, 4x Guardian, 4x Thief, 4 Revenant
4x Necromancer, 3x Mesmer, 4x Guardian, 4x Thief, 4 Revenant
-Future updates will make the encounters easier
-You can beat the content 1 year from now and be rewarded with still-useful stuff.
These two.
The first is because you have ignored the nuance of the argument. Encounters do not become less difficult because players have more options of what to play; encounters become less difficult because Blizzard has a linear gear progression model, and because Blizzard applies explicit nerfs to content to make them easier to complete.
The second is because itemlevel scales such that gear that comes from entry-level raids gets blown out by later raids, and even the same raid once the raidgroup’s item level has increased enough that higher difficulty levels are not actually more difficult than the lower difficulties at the lower gear levels.
Nalhadia – Kaineng
The Flexible Raid system is one of the failed systems WoW attempted to do back in Mists of Pandaria in order to ‘ease raiding onto raiders’.
Turned into a big mess, this thread sums it up nicely, and honestly I am feeling some deja vu about some of the arguments…
http://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/8882348824If you didn’t care to read much into it, Blizzard went with Boss mechanics scaling based upon the group-size, after utilizing their ‘group-finder’ system to get a big enough group. There would be multiple instances of the same raid, boss abilities got tweaked, etc. Players complained about how certain comps group-finder would make were not optimal, they would complain that certain boss mechanics weren’t working between say a 10-man version of that encounter to the 15-man version of that encounter. Dev mentions that some of the behavior does sound odd, some players question why would they need to go this far when a group-finder does enough of the job? Min-max talk, Flexible Raid is broken, and so on.
Mind you, this thread is years old, but the discussion is still relevant.
This is why I continue to deny this ‘easy-mode’ or ‘practice’ mode, because it is an utter waste of time and resources, and can do much more harm than good.
Leave. Raids. Alone.
Then ANet should just drop raids because it is a waste of time and resources.
What constructive insight. I am more than certain the devs will take your opinion and how the first raid of GW2 ultimately performed into consideration.
Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”
The Flexible Raid system is one of the failed systems WoW attempted to do back in Mists of Pandaria in order to ‘ease raiding onto raiders’.
Turned into a big mess, this thread sums it up nicely, and honestly I am feeling some deja vu about some of the arguments…
http://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/8882348824If you didn’t care to read much into it, Blizzard went with Boss mechanics scaling based upon the group-size, after utilizing their ‘group-finder’ system to get a big enough group. There would be multiple instances of the same raid, boss abilities got tweaked, etc. Players complained about how certain comps group-finder would make were not optimal, they would complain that certain boss mechanics weren’t working between say a 10-man version of that encounter to the 15-man version of that encounter. Dev mentions that some of the behavior does sound odd, some players question why would they need to go this far when a group-finder does enough of the job? Min-max talk, Flexible Raid is broken, and so on.
Mind you, this thread is years old, but the discussion is still relevant.
This is why I continue to deny this ‘easy-mode’ or ‘practice’ mode, because it is an utter waste of time and resources, and can do much more harm than good.
Leave. Raids. Alone.
Then ANet should just drop raids because it is a waste of time and resources.
What constructive insight. I am more than certain the devs will take your opinion and how the first raid of GW2 ultimately performed into consideration.
Much more constructive than leaving raids alone just because you fear that ANet might drop raids because we want variety of difficulty.
If there is a choice between dropping raids for more useful content vs. having raids not having varied difficulty, I would rather just drop raids.
5x Warrior, 5x Ranger, 4x Elementalist, 4x Engineer,
4x Necromancer, 3x Mesmer, 4x Guardian, 4x Thief, 4 Revenant
4x Necromancer, 3x Mesmer, 4x Guardian, 4x Thief, 4 Revenant
(edited by runeblade.7514)
If there is a choice between dropping raids for more useful content vs. having raids not having varied difficulty, I would rather just drop raids.
I would rather just drop open world.
Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.
There’s already a way to practice the raid.
It’s called doing the raid.
I can only agree to this. When my guild started raiding, our skill was bad, we had problems with the mechanics and not all had the perfect equip. We failed VG for weeks, then almost quit raiding at gorse and when we finally killed it, sabetha was down the next day. Every boss will need some time befor a group got used to it, but it gets easier everytime.
So practice is the key to raids and of course some may lern slower than others.
The problem raids have is not the difficulty, it is that you need 10 people for it. I personally like the 10 man content, but sometimes it is difficult to find so many people. I don’t want anet to change anything about the raids. It’s people, who need to understand, that raids are no content for solo players. Find a raidgroup or a guild who is willing to take you in or be satisfied with pugs.
The OP’s idea is about generating more interest in raiding – to ensure the game mode remains healthy and actually warrants continued long term development support.
The question is, is the game mode healthy now?
And the follow up is, do we need to bring new people in the game mode, or is better to keep the people we already have happy? Can go for both of course, but one will be get more focus than the other.
In my opinion, which I’ve expressed in other threads on similar subjects there is no need to add new versions of the Raid as long as we have one Raid (the current situation) When a second (or third, fourth etc) Raid comes there might be a need to revitalize interest for the first Raid.
Just take a look at the current events, how many people still hunt the champion bandits? If someone is left behind and still needs those, tough luck for them. Why not make them Veterans now that there is no interest in hunting them? In a similar way, some LS2 achievements are hard to do solo and now there is very little interest in completing them so once again tough luck for those left behind.
Just a few examples old content (which is hard to solo) that becomes obsolete. As for a counter example, they DID make Arah story easy to solo because interest in doing that was diminished over the years.
The Flexible Raid system is one of the failed systems WoW attempted to do back in Mists of Pandaria in order to ‘ease raiding onto raiders’.
Turned into a big mess, this thread sums it up nicely, and honestly I am feeling some deja vu about some of the arguments…
http://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/8882348824If you didn’t care to read much into it, Blizzard went with Boss mechanics scaling based upon the group-size, after utilizing their ‘group-finder’ system to get a big enough group. There would be multiple instances of the same raid, boss abilities got tweaked, etc. Players complained about how certain comps group-finder would make were not optimal, they would complain that certain boss mechanics weren’t working between say a 10-man version of that encounter to the 15-man version of that encounter. Dev mentions that some of the behavior does sound odd, some players question why would they need to go this far when a group-finder does enough of the job? Min-max talk, Flexible Raid is broken, and so on.
Mind you, this thread is years old, but the discussion is still relevant.
This is why I continue to deny this ‘easy-mode’ or ‘practice’ mode, because it is an utter waste of time and resources, and can do much more harm than good.
Leave. Raids. Alone.
Then ANet should just drop raids because it is a waste of time and resources.
What constructive insight. I am more than certain the devs will take your opinion and how the first raid of GW2 ultimately performed into consideration.
Much more constructive than leaving raids alone just because you fear that ANet might drop raids because we want variety of difficulty.
If there is a choice between dropping raids for more useful content vs. having raids not having varied difficulty, I would rather just drop raids.
The only relevant potential issues with raiding at this moment which a few have brought up that I haven’t gotten around to discussing at this time would be the reward incentive as time progresses, and conversion of unused boss rewards like Insights if one doesn’t seek Legendary Armor to something else.
Neither of these relate to varied difficulty, varied difficulty has not been proven to be a valid objective for raids right now, just about every single argument for additional easier difficulties has been discussed against with extremely valid points that I know Arenanet is aware of at this time.
I understand that you dislike raids heavily, you are ultimately welcome to your statements there. Just be prepared for the very likely fact that Arenanet disagrees with you, and that we will have raids in the future because a good enough number of raiders exist in the game, because there’s enough interest right now to make the content useful for them.
Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”
I quit WOW well before Flex raiding was introduced, but my friends still playing that game tell me it is awesome – not so much for pugs (where most of the hate online is coming from – but again, LFR raids are really for pugs there), but definitely for guilds looking to do training or conduct more casual raids with more diverse groups of players.
This is obviously a concept inspired by GW2 in WoW. Seems like it would work very well in GW2.
I quit WOW well before Flex raiding was introduced, but my friends still playing that game tell me it is awesome – not so much for pugs (where most of the hate online is coming from – but again, LFR raids are really for pugs there), but definitely for guilds looking to do training or conduct more casual raids with more diverse groups of players.
This is obviously a concept inspired by GW2 in WoW. Seems like it would work very well in GW2.
There are a lot more hate then praise to that system, just search on the forums.
A lot of people complain that it made way worse to make a group for higher difficulty as people got bad habits from the LFR difficulty and think they are playing fine.
So yeah people that dont like end game content are enjoying the LFR difficulty system ( where they can raid and watch netflix at same time ) while the original target audience got worse because of it.
It’s very strange to me that all the posters advocating for a WoW-like raiding system have never actually experienced that system. (Full disclosure, I haven’t either).
What do the easy moders hope to accomplish with such systems?
Flex raiding — groups have already beat most encounters with as few as 6 people. Is it that hard to grab extra players off the lfg?
Planned obsolescence — All wow raids eventually become obsolete, because of increased level caps and gear tiers. GW2 raids need to last the lifespan of the game.
And, as always, what keeps players from training right now? (Spoiler, nothing).
I’ve also noticed an increase in anti-raid rhetoric lately:
- Players calling for no more raids
- Players calling for raids with no GW2 flavor
I played Flex when it got released. It seemed quite good for us as the small guild we were because we could have a roster of 14 people without fearing to exclude people.
Nevertheless, iirc it was not a way to play the raid with less than 10 people but to accommodate between 10 and 30. Not meant to be a training in any kind.
Also there was rapidly a Meta for each boss in the raid based on the number of people because there were different threshold for every boss skill on its intensity (damage) or number of people affected. So it turned out to be Boss 1 should be done with 12, boss 2 with 14, boss 3 with 11….. I think it has been changed as RNG based on number of people by now.
And last but not least, it did not really help to sort out key archetypes, namely tanks and healers because boss mechanics imposed the number of tanks and total number of people the number of healer. Problem was that those two were not the easiest to be found, finding DPS is not hard. We actually had to reject players several times because we had not enough healers for the amount of people who wanted to play.
So Flex did not really bring more people in the raid scene and I would not compare it to any training mode. It had some usefulness for limited roster guilds but it also created new issues we hadn’t before.
I played Flex when it got released. It seemed quite good for us as the small guild we were because we could have a roster of 14 people without fearing to exclude people.
Nevertheless, iirc it was not a way to play the raid with less than 10 people but to accommodate between 10 and 30. Not meant to be a training in any kind.
Also there was rapidly a Meta for each boss in the raid based on the number of people because there were different threshold for every boss skill on its intensity (damage) or number of people affected. So it turned out to be Boss 1 should be done with 12, boss 2 with 14, boss 3 with 11….. I think it has been changed as RNG based on number of people by now.
And last but not least, it did not really help to sort out key archetypes, namely tanks and healers because boss mechanics imposed the number of tanks and total number of people the number of healer. Problem was that those two were not the easiest to be found, finding DPS is not hard. We actually had to reject players several times because we had not enough healers for the amount of people who wanted to play.So Flex did not really bring more people in the raid scene and I would not compare it to any training mode. It had some usefulness for limited roster guilds but it also created new issues we hadn’t before.
Exactly this, a flex system will just create a meta of people by boss. For example VG you will only want to do as 4 people because with 4 people you dont get the green mechanic. For X boss you want exactly Y people because any number will make it harder. And most fight will be cheated with this system as you will avoid mechanics.
So you will exclude a lot of people from groups, as you dont want to reach some threshold with number of party members( as of know even if your group can 7 man VG you will still invite 3 more people because why not?).
With the system we have now for 10 people, as proven you can do with less people its actually a really good system for not let people out.
I played Flex when it got released. It seemed quite good for us as the small guild we were because we could have a roster of 14 people without fearing to exclude people.
Nevertheless, iirc it was not a way to play the raid with less than 10 people but to accommodate between 10 and 30. Not meant to be a training in any kind.
Also there was rapidly a Meta for each boss in the raid based on the number of people because there were different threshold for every boss skill on its intensity (damage) or number of people affected. So it turned out to be Boss 1 should be done with 12, boss 2 with 14, boss 3 with 11….. I think it has been changed as RNG based on number of people by now.
And last but not least, it did not really help to sort out key archetypes, namely tanks and healers because boss mechanics imposed the number of tanks and total number of people the number of healer. Problem was that those two were not the easiest to be found, finding DPS is not hard. We actually had to reject players several times because we had not enough healers for the amount of people who wanted to play.So Flex did not really bring more people in the raid scene and I would not compare it to any training mode. It had some usefulness for limited roster guilds but it also created new issues we hadn’t before.
Exactly this, a flex system will just create a meta of people by boss. For example VG you will only want to do as 4 people because with 4 people you dont get the green mechanic. For X boss you want exactly Y people because any number will make it harder. And most fight will be cheated with this system as you will avoid mechanics.
So you will exclude a lot of people from groups, as you dont want to reach some threshold with number of party members( as of know even if your group can 7 man VG you will still invite 3 more people because why not?).
With the system we have now for 10 people, as proven you can do with less people its actually a really good system for not let people out.
Unless you significantly reduce the rewards and use it solely for what it is intended – to “preview mechanics” and improve accessibility of raiding to the community.
It would never be intended as a replacement for the current raids.
I played Flex when it got released. It seemed quite good for us as the small guild we were because we could have a roster of 14 people without fearing to exclude people.
Nevertheless, iirc it was not a way to play the raid with less than 10 people but to accommodate between 10 and 30. Not meant to be a training in any kind.
Also there was rapidly a Meta for each boss in the raid based on the number of people because there were different threshold for every boss skill on its intensity (damage) or number of people affected. So it turned out to be Boss 1 should be done with 12, boss 2 with 14, boss 3 with 11….. I think it has been changed as RNG based on number of people by now.
And last but not least, it did not really help to sort out key archetypes, namely tanks and healers because boss mechanics imposed the number of tanks and total number of people the number of healer. Problem was that those two were not the easiest to be found, finding DPS is not hard. We actually had to reject players several times because we had not enough healers for the amount of people who wanted to play.So Flex did not really bring more people in the raid scene and I would not compare it to any training mode. It had some usefulness for limited roster guilds but it also created new issues we hadn’t before.
Exactly this, a flex system will just create a meta of people by boss. For example VG you will only want to do as 4 people because with 4 people you dont get the green mechanic. For X boss you want exactly Y people because any number will make it harder. And most fight will be cheated with this system as you will avoid mechanics.
So you will exclude a lot of people from groups, as you dont want to reach some threshold with number of party members( as of know even if your group can 7 man VG you will still invite 3 more people because why not?).
With the system we have now for 10 people, as proven you can do with less people its actually a really good system for not let people out.Unless you significantly reduce the rewards and use it solely for what it is intended – to “preview mechanics” and improve accessibility of raiding to the community.
It would never be intended as a replacement for the current raids.
You want to create the most toxic system ever.
You know what will happen, for VG 8 people are the meta, for gors 6.
Then you pug VG kill it and proced to gors. As gors is for 6 people, 2 people will get kicked. Really fun right?
This thread should be locked just as the other.
I played Flex when it got released. It seemed quite good for us as the small guild we were because we could have a roster of 14 people without fearing to exclude people.
Nevertheless, iirc it was not a way to play the raid with less than 10 people but to accommodate between 10 and 30. Not meant to be a training in any kind.
Also there was rapidly a Meta for each boss in the raid based on the number of people because there were different threshold for every boss skill on its intensity (damage) or number of people affected. So it turned out to be Boss 1 should be done with 12, boss 2 with 14, boss 3 with 11….. I think it has been changed as RNG based on number of people by now.
And last but not least, it did not really help to sort out key archetypes, namely tanks and healers because boss mechanics imposed the number of tanks and total number of people the number of healer. Problem was that those two were not the easiest to be found, finding DPS is not hard. We actually had to reject players several times because we had not enough healers for the amount of people who wanted to play.So Flex did not really bring more people in the raid scene and I would not compare it to any training mode. It had some usefulness for limited roster guilds but it also created new issues we hadn’t before.
Exactly this, a flex system will just create a meta of people by boss. For example VG you will only want to do as 4 people because with 4 people you dont get the green mechanic. For X boss you want exactly Y people because any number will make it harder. And most fight will be cheated with this system as you will avoid mechanics.
So you will exclude a lot of people from groups, as you dont want to reach some threshold with number of party members( as of know even if your group can 7 man VG you will still invite 3 more people because why not?).
With the system we have now for 10 people, as proven you can do with less people its actually a really good system for not let people out.Unless you significantly reduce the rewards and use it solely for what it is intended – to “preview mechanics” and improve accessibility of raiding to the community.
It would never be intended as a replacement for the current raids.
You want to create the most toxic system ever.
You know what will happen, for VG 8 people are the meta, for gors 6.
Then you pug VG kill it and proced to gors. As gors is for 6 people, 2 people will get kicked. Really fun right?
This thread should be locked just as the other.
I do not believe it would be nearly as toxic as you try to make it sound – and definitely not as toxic as what we see with the existing raid system.
When you decrease the reward and the barrier to entry, then the meta becomes less of an issue – not more, which would be the whole point. The flex raid (or whatever system they come up with) would be the more casual raiding experience for those guilds and groups that are looking for that kind of thing (and there are plenty out there).
Again, the goal is to open the experience to more players – something that will only benefit the game and raiding as a whole (justifying more dev resources, encouraging greater interest in learning to raid, etc).
The only reason we don’t see it in the game now is because Anet wanted key words for a press release at the launch of HOT – to encourage the hardcore raiding community from other games to migrate to GW2.
I really don’t think that what we have is a sustainable model in this game.
Now that the “challenging content” is here, it is time to logically expand on that content to create a system that encourages advancement, fits with the other storytelling tools in the game and opens new experiences for players with multiple playstyles and interests.
And as a side note – the other thread was closed because a small group people there couldn’t discuss the topic in that particular thread like adults (resorting to insults, personal attacks, etc), not because the conversation was finished. This is a topic that warrants further discussion. The fact that it raises so many conflicting points of view is further proof of that, not less. To peoples’ credit, so far, this thread has been a lot more civil.
(edited by Blaeys.3102)
Now that the “challenging content” is here, it is time to logically expand on that content to create a system that encourages advancement, fits with the other storytelling tools in the game and opens new experiences for players with multiple playstyles and interests.
It already does all of those things. Guess we can close the thread now since the existing raid satisfies your requirements.
[DnT]::Nike::
www.twitch.tv/nike_dnt
www.twitch.tv/nike_dnt
Now that the “challenging content” is here, it is time to logically expand on that content to create a system that encourages advancement, fits with the other storytelling tools in the game and opens new experiences for players with multiple playstyles and interests.
It already does all of those things. Guess we can close the thread now since the existing raid satisfies your requirements.
Your reply shows exactly why the conversation needs to continue. It is about degrees and the perspective of the player. While you find the system open and meeting the criteria I list, there are others (myself obviously among them) who do not. All of those opinions are important and of value to both the community and Anet.
Debating (calmly and respectfully) where the lines are drawn and if/how they can be improved upon is exactly why the thread should remain open and active.
Now that the “challenging content” is here, it is time to logically expand on that content to create a system that encourages advancement, fits with the other storytelling tools in the game and opens new experiences for players with multiple playstyles and interests.
It already does all of those things. Guess we can close the thread now since the existing raid satisfies your requirements.
Your reply shows exactly why the conversation needs to continue. It is about degrees and the perspective of the player. While you find the system open and meeting the criteria I list, there are others (myself obviously among them) who do not. All of those opinions are important and of value to both the community and Anet.
Debating (calmly and respectfully) where the lines are drawn and if/how they can be improved upon is exactly why the thread should remain open and active.
You’re right, lets debate this. We have raids that are supposed to be challenging, yet they are being done at 40% strength (4 man) how is that reasonable? The raids need to get much harder.
Now that the “challenging content” is here, it is time to logically expand on that content to create a system that encourages advancement, fits with the other storytelling tools in the game and opens new experiences for players with multiple playstyles and interests.
It already does all of those things. Guess we can close the thread now since the existing raid satisfies your requirements.
Your reply shows exactly why the conversation needs to continue. It is about degrees and the perspective of the player. While you find the system open and meeting the criteria I list, there are others (myself obviously among them) who do not. All of those opinions are important and of value to both the community and Anet.
Debating (calmly and respectfully) where the lines are drawn and if/how they can be improved upon is exactly why the thread should remain open and active.
You’re right, lets debate this. We have raids that are supposed to be challenging, yet they are being done at 40% strength (4 man) how is that reasonable? The raids need to get much harder.
Yes this, lets name the current one easy mode. And have a normal mode and a hard mode. Now Blaeys got what he wanted.
Unless you significantly reduce the rewards and use it solely for what it is intended – to “preview mechanics” and improve accessibility of raiding to the community.
It would never be intended as a replacement for the current raids.
Well that is what is currently implemented in the game and called “phase 1 of the encounter”. It actually served its purpose in my guild. The first nights we tried VG we were getting the feel of green and blue mechanics, sometimes achieving to phase the boss and fail in phase2. We went on until we reached time limit. After that we started to optimize our builds and rotation until we went to phase 3 where we got crushed by the increasing difficulty. We then focused on being more precise on boss movement, which actually served for phase 2 as well. Eventually we killed the boss.
The best is that for all this effort we got rewarded with shards which we used to buy ascended gear to help our progression.
You can look at every boss, they work like this : first easy phase and every time new mechanics. For every reasonable failure you are rewarded… pretty much a practice mode as you describe it.
I really don’t think that what we have is a sustainable model in this game.
Can I just ask how an easy mode would be sustainable? You would arguably need months more to create both systems. Not only would it set future raids back because they first need to create an easy mode for forsaken thicket, those new raids would also be double the work.
At this point with the crazy power creep in the now utterly broken dungeons and the boon and power build hate in fracs (which we’ve been doing for 4 years now btw), could you rly call a system where we get raids on an even less frequent basis in any way “sustainable”?
Create an “easy mode” thread, gets locked for circular conversation.
Create a “practice mode” thread and pretend its a totally different discussion.
Neat.
Couldn’t have said it better.
Now that the “challenging content” is here, it is time to logically expand on that content to create a system that encourages advancement, fits with the other storytelling tools in the game and opens new experiences for players with multiple playstyles and interests.
It already does all of those things. Guess we can close the thread now since the existing raid satisfies your requirements.
Your reply shows exactly why the conversation needs to continue. It is about degrees and the perspective of the player. While you find the system open and meeting the criteria I list, there are others (myself obviously among them) who do not. All of those opinions are important and of value to both the community and Anet.
Debating (calmly and respectfully) where the lines are drawn and if/how they can be improved upon is exactly why the thread should remain open and active.
What criteria do you value, and how have you not found them met?
I find it difficult to debate with easy-moders because I have no idea what their thesis is. That is, what problem are they trying to solve?
The title of this post is practice mode raids. (Note: not easy mode). The first stage of each boss is practice for the later stages. Why is this not enough?
I agree with OnizukaBR.
Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.
I really don’t think that what we have is a sustainable model in this game.
Can I just ask how an easy mode would be sustainable? You would arguably need months more to create both systems. Not only would it set future raids back because they first need to create an easy mode for forsaken thicket, those new raids would also be double the work.
At this point with the crazy power creep in the now utterly broken dungeons and the boon and power build hate in fracs (which we’ve been doing for 4 years now btw), could you rly call a system where we get raids on an even less frequent basis in any way “sustainable”?
In an effort to get this thread back onto the actual topic, let’s backtrack to this post (which is actually really good feedback/reasoning/criticisms with no personal insults or attacks whatsoever).
If they had to make completely different versions of the raid between difficulty levels, I agree that it would take months. However, if they can develop a scaling mechanism that relies more on math than actually changing the mechanics (altering attack/health numbers, changing enrage mechanics, etc), I think the actual time needed to implement tiered difficulty would be very reasonable – and, in the process justify the implementation of difficulties far and above what we have now.
And, of course, rewards would have to scale as well – top end raiders obviously deserve greater reward.
Basically, by ensuring more accessibility, they would no longer have to worry about making them too difficult. This would be a win-win as far as I am concerned. It would address the idea of training, accessibility, making future raids too easy, etc.
And I agree with your thoughts/concerns regarding power creep in dungeons. Dungeons are not in a good place and don’t really work well/offer much of a challenge post-ascended gear. To me, that is yet another example of why a tiered scaling difficulty system is needed for raids long term. It helps alleviate stagnation of raids at both the easier and the harder levels (offering a moving target for ongoing challenge/reward levels).
And, once again – EVERYONE (me included), let’s stop talking about things that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand (and definitely stop with the personally directed comments/insults/etc). This conversation is going to continue – in one way or another – no matter how much some people don’t want it to or try to derail it. Let’s refocus and get back to productive dialogue.
(edited by Blaeys.3102)
I really don’t think that what we have is a sustainable model in this game.
Can I just ask how an easy mode would be sustainable? You would arguably need months more to create both systems. Not only would it set future raids back because they first need to create an easy mode for forsaken thicket, those new raids would also be double the work.
At this point with the crazy power creep in the now utterly broken dungeons and the boon and power build hate in fracs (which we’ve been doing for 4 years now btw), could you rly call a system where we get raids on an even less frequent basis in any way “sustainable”?
In an effort to get this thread back onto the actual topic, let’s backtrack to this post (which is actually really good feedback/reasoning/criticisms with no personal insults or attacks whatsoever).
If they had to make completely different versions of the raid between difficulty levels, I agree that it would take months. However, if they can develop a scaling mechanism that relies more on math than actually changing the mechanics (altering attack/health numbers, changing enrage mechanics, etc), I think the actual time needed to implement tiered difficulty would be very reasonable – and, in the process justify the implementation of difficulties far and above what we have now.
And, of course, rewards would have to scale as well – top end raiders obviously deserve greater reward.
Basically, by ensuring more accessibility, they would no longer have to worry about making them too difficult. This would be a win-win as far as I am concerned. It would address the idea of training, accessibility, making future raids too easy, etc.
And I agree with your thoughts/concerns regarding power creep in dungeons. Dungeons are not in a good place and don’t really work well/offer much of a challenge post-ascended gear. To me, that is yet another example of why a tiered scaling difficulty system is needed for raids long term. It helps alleviate stagnation of raids at both the easier and the harder levels (offering a moving target for ongoing challenge/reward levels).
And, once again – EVERYONE (me included), let’s stop talking about things that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand (and definitely stop with the personally directed comments/insults/etc). This conversation is going to continue – in one way or another – no matter how much some people don’t want it to or try to derail it. Let’s refocus and get back to productive dialogue.
So you are talking again about the scalling system, see what you said about “A child saying i dont wanna listen i dont wanna listen”.
There was proof and people gave example that scalling raids are really bad, you will get the option size for each boss fight. Like 8 for VG, 6 for gors… you will get kicked after a fight because for the next one, less people is better etc…
So unless you have something to bring to the table ( backed with proofs ) stop bringing the same argument that was already taken down.
I really don’t think that what we have is a sustainable model in this game.
Can I just ask how an easy mode would be sustainable? You would arguably need months more to create both systems. Not only would it set future raids back because they first need to create an easy mode for forsaken thicket, those new raids would also be double the work.
At this point with the crazy power creep in the now utterly broken dungeons and the boon and power build hate in fracs (which we’ve been doing for 4 years now btw), could you rly call a system where we get raids on an even less frequent basis in any way “sustainable”?
In an effort to get this thread back onto the actual topic, let’s backtrack to this post (which is actually really good feedback/reasoning/criticisms with no personal insults or attacks whatsoever).
If they had to make completely different versions of the raid between difficulty levels, I agree that it would take months. However, if they can develop a scaling mechanism that relies more on math than actually changing the mechanics (altering attack/health numbers, changing enrage mechanics, etc), I think the actual time needed to implement tiered difficulty would be very reasonable – and, in the process justify the implementation of difficulties far and above what we have now.
And, of course, rewards would have to scale as well – top end raiders obviously deserve greater reward.
Basically, by ensuring more accessibility, they would no longer have to worry about making them too difficult. This would be a win-win as far as I am concerned. It would address the idea of training, accessibility, making future raids too easy, etc.
And I agree with your thoughts/concerns regarding power creep in dungeons. Dungeons are not in a good place and don’t really work well/offer much of a challenge post-ascended gear. To me, that is yet another example of why a tiered scaling difficulty system is needed for raids long term. It helps alleviate stagnation of raids at both the easier and the harder levels (offering a moving target for ongoing challenge/reward levels).
And, once again – EVERYONE (me included), let’s stop talking about things that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand (and definitely stop with the personally directed comments/insults/etc). This conversation is going to continue – in one way or another – no matter how much some people don’t want it to or try to derail it. Let’s refocus and get back to productive dialogue.
So you are talking again about the scalling system, see what you said about “A child saying i dont wanna listen i dont wanna listen”.
There was proof and people gave example that scalling raids are really bad, you will get the option size for each boss fight. Like 8 for VG, 6 for gors… you will get kicked after a fight because for the next one, less people is better etc…
So unless you have something to bring to the table ( backed with proofs ) stop bringing the same argument that was already taken down.
When people post videos of 8 for VG, 6 for gorseval, I think people misinterpret what that really represents (which we have talked about many times in these threads).
The hard core and specialized raid groups/guilds did the same thing in WoW. They microanalyze the fights/builds/stats and tailor make the smaller groups to take advantage of particular boons or aspects of the fights (same is true of the groups that do the fights with 10 eles and blast water fields). They then practice and practice until that one pull they get perfect (often for hours or months), which they then post online.
That is an admirable accomplishment, but it is in no way whatsoever representative of how the vast majority of groups approach raids – and it definitely has nothing to do with or justifies diminishing the need for a training or variable difficulty mode . Anyone who has raided in any game has seen it dozens of times and understands that simple fact.
I have talked about this exact topic and reasoning before. I understand some don’t see it the same way, but anyone that has raided hardcore in other raiding games understands it. Ive been in some of those groups that take advantage of mechanics or boons (in WoW, specifically) to do some things the developers obviously didn’t think would be possible. It is a very particular playstyle – and can be fun. But it isn’t representative of how standard raiding works or fits into a game.
Looking at those groups to justify the exclusion of easier modes is disingenuous, imo. I can see how people who haven’t seen this kind of thing in the past can connect the dots, but it really is apples and oranges.
When people post videos of 8 for VG, 6 for gorseval, I think people misinterpret what that really represents (which we have talked about many times in these threads).
The hard core and specialized raid groups/guilds did the same thing in WoW. They microanalyze the fights/builds/stats and tailor make the smaller groups to take advantage of particular boons or aspects of the fights (same is true of the groups that do the fights with 10 eles and blast water fields). They then practice and practice until that one pull they get perfect (often for hours or months), which they then post online.
That is an admirable accomplishment, but it is in no way whatsoever representative of how the vast majority of groups approach raids – and it definitely has nothing to do with or justifies diminishing the need for a training or variable difficulty mode . Anyone who has raided in any game has seen it dozens of times and understands that simple fact.
I have talked about this exact topic and reasoning before. I understand some don’t see it the same way, but anyone that has raided hardcore in other raiding games understands it. Ive been in some of those groups that take advantage of mechanics or boons (in WoW, specifically) to do some things the developers obviously didn’t think would be possible. It is a very particular playstyle – and can be fun. But it isn’t representative of how standard raiding works or fits into a game.
Looking at those groups to justify the exclusion of easier modes is disingenuous, imo. I can see how people who haven’t seen this kind of thing in the past can connect the dots, but it really is apples and oranges.
Are you now talking about Low-Manning Stuff ( Running it with less Members than intended ) or Scaling the Boss Mechanics to the Members you have at the attempt? From what I see you are mixing both Things up. Things which are completely different.
When people post videos of 8 for VG, 6 for gorseval, I think people misinterpret what that really represents (which we have talked about many times in these threads).
The hard core and specialized raid groups/guilds did the same thing in WoW. They microanalyze the fights/builds/stats and tailor make the smaller groups to take advantage of particular boons or aspects of the fights (same is true of the groups that do the fights with 10 eles and blast water fields). They then practice and practice until that one pull they get perfect (often for hours or months), which they then post online.
That is an admirable accomplishment, but it is in no way whatsoever representative of how the vast majority of groups approach raids – and it definitely has nothing to do with or justifies diminishing the need for a training or variable difficulty mode . Anyone who has raided in any game has seen it dozens of times and understands that simple fact.
I have talked about this exact topic and reasoning before. I understand some don’t see it the same way, but anyone that has raided hardcore in other raiding games understands it. Ive been in some of those groups that take advantage of mechanics or boons (in WoW, specifically) to do some things the developers obviously didn’t think would be possible. It is a very particular playstyle – and can be fun. But it isn’t representative of how standard raiding works or fits into a game.
Looking at those groups to justify the exclusion of easier modes is disingenuous, imo. I can see how people who haven’t seen this kind of thing in the past can connect the dots, but it really is apples and oranges.
But … at least there’s something to support his position. Groups can and have beaten these bosses with fewer people than intended.
I think people get upset because there’s actually a possibility of failure in raids. Yes, for some groups it’s faceroll. But there’s always that possibility of a wipe. That’s not present in most gw2 content.
It’s ok not to like it. It really is. But that’s no reason to nerf or make an alternative form of this content. There’s plenty of other content to play.
The most common argument here (now) is that it would get more people into raiding. Train them. Well, I don’t believe that. You can train right now. You could make a guild run right now to train people.
So do it. Be your own solution. But I expect all we’ll see is more anet bashing.
When people post videos of 8 for VG, 6 for gorseval, I think people misinterpret what that really represents (which we have talked about many times in these threads).
The hard core and specialized raid groups/guilds did the same thing in WoW. They microanalyze the fights/builds/stats and tailor make the smaller groups to take advantage of particular boons or aspects of the fights (same is true of the groups that do the fights with 10 eles and blast water fields). They then practice and practice until that one pull they get perfect (often for hours or months), which they then post online.
That is an admirable accomplishment, but it is in no way whatsoever representative of how the vast majority of groups approach raids – and it definitely has nothing to do with or justifies diminishing the need for a training or variable difficulty mode . Anyone who has raided in any game has seen it dozens of times and understands that simple fact.
I have talked about this exact topic and reasoning before. I understand some don’t see it the same way, but anyone that has raided hardcore in other raiding games understands it. Ive been in some of those groups that take advantage of mechanics or boons (in WoW, specifically) to do some things the developers obviously didn’t think would be possible. It is a very particular playstyle – and can be fun. But it isn’t representative of how standard raiding works or fits into a game.
Looking at those groups to justify the exclusion of easier modes is disingenuous, imo. I can see how people who haven’t seen this kind of thing in the past can connect the dots, but it really is apples and oranges.
Are you now talking about Low-Manning Stuff ( Running it with less Members than intended ) or Scaling the Boss Mechanics to the Members you have at the attempt? From what I see you are mixing both Things up. Things which are completely different.
Sorry for the confusion. I’m talking about low manning stuff as I assume that is what the previous poster was talking about.
I would like to see scaling to party size as a solution (for lower tier difficulties only), but that has nothing to do with the post I was responding to.
(edited by Blaeys.3102)
Sorry for the confusion. I’m talking about low manning stuff as I assume that is what the previous poster was talking about.
I would like to see scaling to party size as a solution (for lower tier difficulties only), but that has nothing to do with the post I was responding to.
But where do you set that scale? It isn’t as black and white as it sounds. There are people would would benefit from the current difficulty being the “easy”, “medium”, or “hard” versions of the raid content. As we’ve seen from fractals, simply scaling numbers on enemies isn’t as straightforward as it looks.
I made long posts on the previous topic and got no responses.
The TLDR version is that I believe they could make the “easy mode” part of a single difficulty of the raid. Just make certain “splits” in the path instead of a linear one. One example could be that the split is after the first boss (maybe wing 3 escort level). Then groups could decide to go down the “easy” or the “normal” path. These paths could eventually link back up, or the easy could restart at the normal path.
This way they are developing one set of content where the content itself is intended to allow groups of difficult abilities to progress at different rates.
I also believe they should implement repeatable achievements (like KC challenge mote for example), with actual incentive to repeat them multiple times. If I’m in a group that can do the challenge mote every time, I should want to. That reward could be gold, % of shard increase, % drop rate increase, repeatable achievements for titles/AP, etc.