Guild Wars 2

Hey everyone, scoots from [NA]. I just wanted to shed a little light on why my team, and seemingly everyone else is swapping to comps focused entirely around burnzerkers.

As rickay continues to build his massive spreadsheet, we are seeing a very balanced pattern in DPS. Most viable condi classes are falling within the 23k-25k range, while power classes are hitting between 20-23k (this is due to us using heavy armored targets for calculations).

Viper Burnzerker is currently hitting 32k dps on the spreadsheet. After double checking the math and comparing with KINGS, SC, ect… videos, there is no denying that burnzerkers are doing noticeably more damaged then any other class (save elemenalist in certain situations.)

While I don’t see anything wrong with certain classes being meta, this seems to be unintended since all the other viable class builds are within 5% of each other.

The more you know eh?

Yeah that is a bit crazy. Cool info tho. I’m sure it will be nerfed at some point.

Which raid boss is heavy armor?

Out of curiosity, what buffs did you assume when calculating DPS for condi warrior ("burnzerker)?

We need to summon Nemisis to refute all this spreadsheet dps nonsense.

NikeEU.7690:

Which raid boss is heavy armor?

Gorseval?

Zui.9245:

Out of curiosity, what buffs did you assume when calculating DPS for condi warrior ("burnzerker)?

Everything except grace of land and that druid glyph for all our numbers right now, however were going back and doing a no buff table, and a everything except druid buffs and alacrity table.

NikeEU.7690:

Which raid boss is heavy armor?

If your implying that I don’t know the exact armor on the raid bosses, you would be correct. Finding the exact armor numbers for each boss is low priority right now though. If your in possession of the actual armor amounts, or have a reason why we should prioritize finding exact armor values, I’d love to see it

Main problem is that it’s situational damage.

If it’s not the perfect environment like an immobile boss or a dummy then its dps drops off significantly which is why it’s not even a suggestably viable build in pvp.

I wouldn’t call it “meta” since most other metas work in many scenarios whereas this one is completely shut down by simple movement.

Poop.4295:

Main problem is that it’s situational damage.

If it’s not the perfect environment like an immobile boss or a dummy then its dps drops off significantly which is why it’s not even a suggestably viable build in pvp.

I wouldn’t call it “meta” since most other metas work in many scenarios whereas this one is completely shut down by simple movement.

Actually, if you watch any of the kill videos involving burnzerkers, it doesn’t require a perfect environment to do the top dps in the game, it is easily done in a raid setting.

Poop.4295:

Main problem is that it’s situational damage.

If it’s not the perfect environment like an immobile boss or a dummy then its dps drops off significantly which is why it’s not even a suggestably viable build in pvp.

I wouldn’t call it “meta” since most other metas work in many scenarios whereas this one is completely shut down by simple movement.

Talking about Raids here as in the title, and the forum sub section. But yes its pretty crappy for pvp.

Poop.4295:

Main problem is that it’s situational damage.

If it’s not the perfect environment like an immobile boss or a dummy then its dps drops off significantly which is why it’s not even a suggestably viable build in pvp.

I wouldn’t call it “meta” since most other metas work in many scenarios whereas this one is completely shut down by simple movement.

Vale Guardian is typically held in one spot all throughout phase 1, and then in phase 2 and 3 he’s moved once every 15 seconds or so and held in one spot the rest of the time.

Gorseval depends on how you do it but most runs you only use 3 updrafts, so running to the wall to use the updraft, then back to center those 3 times are the only times he’s not held in one spot.

Sabetha doesn’t move.

@OP:

I feel like Berserker got massively overbuffed on this patch in response to the fact that Berserker was the most underwhelming elite spec in both pvp and pve. Now it’s pretty broken in PvE and still kind of useless in PvE.

But I may be wrong, I don’t play warrior so I don’t really know much about it.

As much as I already spent hundreds of golds gearing my burnzerker, I think the whole double fire aoe thing is a kitteneesy.

I don’t mind if it gets nerfed

spoj.9672:

NikeEU.7690:

Which raid boss is heavy armor?

Gorseval?

Gorseval has “normal” armour though Sabetha receives a bit less damage from power specs.

They made the F1 create multiple fire fields because it was an easy fix at the time with limited repercussions that they could see. The goal was to make it a square AOE instead of a circular AOE. I think, ultimately, what they’ll do is make it one long AOE like Wildfire or make all fields have the same AOE limit tracking (so it can’t hit the same target multiple times).

I’ll be sure to include this in my next report anyway.

Rising Dusk.2408:

They made the F1 create multiple fire fields because it was an easy fix at the time with limited repercussions that they could see. The goal was to make it a square AOE instead of a circular AOE. I think, ultimately, what they’ll do is make it one long AOE like Wildfire or make all fields have the same AOE limit tracking (so it can’t hit the same target multiple times).

I’ll be sure to include this in my next report anyway.

Making it like Wildfire and increasing burning damage/giving it some initial burn would make it a bit more impactful in PvP.

Rym.1469:

Rising Dusk.2408:

They made the F1 create multiple fire fields because it was an easy fix at the time with limited repercussions that they could see. The goal was to make it a square AOE instead of a circular AOE. I think, ultimately, what they’ll do is make it one long AOE like Wildfire or make all fields have the same AOE limit tracking (so it can’t hit the same target multiple times).

I’ll be sure to include this in my next report anyway.

Making it like Wildfire and increasing burning damage/giving it some initial burn would make it a bit more impactful in PvP.

As long as they don’t concentrate too much of Burnzerker’s condi damage output into that single skill if it works like Wildfire. It will be worse than old RoF on nodes if they do. They will have to spread the damage potential out between skills.

I hope condi war will not be nerfed, i spent too much money on this

Rising Dusk.2408:

They made the F1 create multiple fire fields because it was an easy fix at the time with limited repercussions that they could see. The goal was to make it a square AOE instead of a circular AOE. I think, ultimately, what they’ll do is make it one long AOE like Wildfire or make all fields have the same AOE limit tracking (so it can’t hit the same target multiple times).

I’ll be sure to include this in my next report anyway.

Couldn’t they have made it like Tempest’s warhorn 5 skill in fire?

Rising Dusk.2408:

They made the F1 create multiple fire fields because it was an easy fix at the time with limited repercussions that they could see. The goal was to make it a square AOE instead of a circular AOE. I think, ultimately, what they’ll do is make it one long AOE like Wildfire or make all fields have the same AOE limit tracking (so it can’t hit the same target multiple times).

I’ll be sure to include this in my next report anyway.

I think they originally wanted Scorched Earth to be multiple fire fields for extra combo fields to work with.

If they wanted to hit the burning on the move, they could reduce the fields from 5 to 3 while expanding the fields so you can’t get say Gorseval into 3 fields at the same time and/or reduce the base burning duration on Scorched by a small amount which will scale back each field’s tick. Both might make the damage in-line with everyone else.

rotten.9753:

spoj.9672:

NikeEU.7690:

Which raid boss is heavy armor?

Gorseval?

Gorseval has “normal” armour though Sabetha receives a bit less damage from power specs.

Except on gorseval ive noticed much less direct damage than on VG. Im not really sure what “normal” armour is. But the standard 2600 armour i would actually consider as high armour. Especially since condition damage is so good now that a boss has to have “low” armour for direct damage to be a clear winner in non burst situations.

spoj.9672:

rotten.9753:

spoj.9672:

NikeEU.7690:

Which raid boss is heavy armor?

Gorseval?

Gorseval has “normal” armour though Sabetha receives a bit less damage from power specs.

Except on gorseval ive noticed much less direct damage than on VG. Im not really sure what “normal” armour is. But the standard 2600 armour i would actually consider as high armour. Especially since condition damage is so good now that a boss has to have “low” armour for direct damage to be a clear winner in non burst situations.

condi and direct damage is pretty balanced atm, except condi warrior.

also the 23-25k for most viable condi specs in the first post isnt really true.
condi warrior can hit the 25k but thats pretty much it.

Yeah they are pretty balanced on around 2600 armour. But most bosses seem to have more than that.

TheFamster.7806:

Couldn’t they have made it like Tempest’s warhorn 5 skill in fire?

Yes, but that required more work than they had time to put in when they made the change. I suspect it’s something they’re actively working now that they’ve had time since HoT’s release. I wouldn’t expect any traction on this, though, until the January balance patch.

A spreadsheet does not reflect the actual reality, on a super hypothetical situation where everything is perfect, maybe, condition berserker can do 34k DPS, but again, that most likely will never happen. + nerfing the burning on berserker will probably kill warrior (beserker) even more in PvP. Making scorched earth into a single fire field and buffing the burn duration on flame flurry is a good way to balance it.

Mulling.8421:

A spreadsheet does not reflect the actual reality, on a super hypothetical situation where everything is perfect, maybe, condition berserker can do 34k DPS, but again, that most likely will never happen. + nerfing the burning on berserker will probably kill warrior (beserker) even more in PvP. Making scorched earth into a single fire field and buffing the burn duration on flame flurry is a good way to balance it.

There is plenty of evidence showing how much more DPS burnzerker does then all other classes on not only gor, but vale and sabetha as well. The exact numbers people come up with on spreadsheets is irrelevant.

Scootabuser.4915:

There is plenty of evidence showing how much more DPS burnzerker does then all other classes on not only gor, but vale and sabetha as well. The exact numbers people come up with on spreadsheets is irrelevant.

Yeah, they will probably fix it by making scorched earth into a single fire field. I just hope they don’t kill the build.

Mulling.8421:

Scootabuser.4915:

There is plenty of evidence showing how much more DPS burnzerker does then all other classes on not only gor, but vale and sabetha as well. The exact numbers people come up with on spreadsheets is irrelevant.

Yeah, they will probably fix it by making scorched earth into a single fire field. I just hope they don’t kill the build.

Don’t think the build will be completely killed off because of that fire field merge as long as it requires enemies to stand in it, just like napalm or flamewall. However current state of scorched Earth is messed up as hell. I mean it does make Gorseval fight easier and allows fun stuff such kitten man VG happen, but I completely disagree with 2 fire fields from 1 skill ticking twice.

Anet can also increase the burn stack on torch to make it appealing for pvp and pve but scorched earth at current state needs to go. Just to defend myself from people who likes current state of scorched earth, yes I invested lots of gold converting my heavy ps set into vipers, fully ascended weapon, backpiece, trinkets, etc. Still don’t like scorched earth.

random thought,

what if rather than changing out the skill to be something else…

perhaps revisit the pre hot possibles of burning damage reduction. maybe tone down burning by say 10 percent, and buff bleeding by 10 percent.

By doing so it would still provide opportunity for a burnzerker to play skillfully in placement of their scorched earth and allow for the loss of damage to be made up in the bleeding from sword.
Engie would level out as their condie damage is consisted of both burning and bleeding as well as others.
Necromancer get a little bit of a buff and a more stable spot in the scene.
Condie Guardian would see a drop but i am not sure that gets played all that much in any game mode right now.
Condie ranger might see some changes but they have access to bleeding as well as burning so I dont know.

just a thought.

TheFamster.7806:

Don’t think the build will be completely killed off because of that fire field merge as long as it requires enemies to stand in it, just like napalm or flamewall. However current state of scorched Earth is messed up as hell. I mean it does make Gorseval fight easier and allows fun stuff such kitten man VG happen, but I completely disagree with 2 fire fields from 1 skill ticking twice.

Anet can also increase the burn stack on torch to make it appealing for pvp and pve but scorched earth at current state needs to go. Just to defend myself from people who likes current state of scorched earth, yes I invested lots of gold converting my heavy ps set into vipers, fully ascended weapon, backpiece, trinkets, etc. Still don’t like scorched earth.

I don’t know, usually when ANet nerfs something it gets destroyed. And I don’t care about the gold i spend on the build, i’m just tired of playing PS Warrior and having no build diversity.

If they just change it down to 1 field, burnzerker will have competitive damage still. It just wont have totally broken damage like it does now.

P.S.
Gorseval’s real hitbox is small enough that it only gets hit by 2 fields.

I wish people would stop throwing around numbers without showing any background.

What buffs do you assume?
I can’t picture Engi, with all buffs and a good rotation, doing less than 25k DPS while I don’t see condi Berserker with “average” buffs dishing out 32k DPS.
What rotation do you assume?
Sure, without Alacrity and without having to dodge once I can get out 4x Scorched Earth per Berserker. But when you have to dodge once at the wrong time you will either miss out on the 4th use entirely or it will be mispositioned, etc.

Not sure how you get your Numbers of condi Warrior still having competitive DPS when it’s a single Firefield. With 25 Might, 25 Furious, Fury, 25 Vuln, Banners, Empower Allies, Assassin’s Presence and this rotation I get 20.3k DPS. That’s not exactly competitive, especially when you lose the 4th Scorched Earth.

E: obviously you can hit 5 Scorched Earths per Berserker without Alacrity, not 4. I was too tired when I wrote this

Cheezy.2039:

I wish people would stop throwing around numbers without showing any background.

What buffs do you assume?
I can’t picture Engi, with all buffs and a good rotation, doing less than 25k DPS while I don’t see condi Berserker with “average” buffs dishing out 32k DPS.
What rotation do you assume?
Sure, without Alacrity and without having to dodge once I can get out 4x Scorched Earth per Berserker. But when you have to dodge once at the wrong time you will either miss out on the 4th use entirely or it will be mispositioned, etc.

Not sure how you get your Numbers of condi Warrior still having competitive DPS when it’s a single Firefield. With 25 Might, 25 Furious, Fury, 25 Vuln, Banners, Empower Allies, Assassin’s Presence and this rotation I get 20.3k DPS. That’s not exactly competitive, especially when you lose the 4th Scorched Earth.

The exact numbers don’t matter much, the important thing is that burnzerkers are doing NOTICEABLY more damage in game, the fact that they also do on paper just supports that fact.

Cheezy.2039:

I wish people would stop throwing around numbers without showing any background.

What buffs do you assume?
I can’t picture Engi, with all buffs and a good rotation, doing less than 25k DPS while I don’t see condi Berserker with “average” buffs dishing out 32k DPS.
What rotation do you assume?
Sure, without Alacrity and without having to dodge once I can get out 4x Scorched Earth per Berserker. But when you have to dodge once at the wrong time you will either miss out on the 4th use entirely or it will be mispositioned, etc.

Not sure how you get your Numbers of condi Warrior still having competitive DPS when it’s a single Firefield. With 25 Might, 25 Furious, Fury, 25 Vuln, Banners, Empower Allies, Assassin’s Presence and this rotation I get 20.3k DPS. That’s not exactly competitive, especially when you lose the 4th Scorched Earth.

In my sheet, condi engy with quickness and alacrity + 25 might/vuln and banners does just over 30k DPS if you can keep up with the rotation. Just over 20k DPS with 0 quickness and alacrity.

Scootabuser.4915:

The exact numbers don’t matter much, the important thing is that burnzerkers are doing NOTICEABLY more damage in game, the fact that they also do on paper just supports that fact.

common sense. this person speaks it.

Seems like mostly people who are salty their class isn’t top dps on a couple fights. Doesn’t matter whether they nerf condi zerker or not it’s foreseeable future content will render the class’ condition mechanics useless. The class relies too much on a single skill that just happens to be effective on a few encounters. Nerfing the damage isn’t a solution, change the mechanics and distribute the damage on the other skills. Either way, there’s nothing to be said when the “meta” is a boss that never moves and has no pressure on the player.

It also seems the numbers that other people provide totally contradict the “OPness” the class has with its many limitations.

Would be nice to have a single fire field with increased damage, but chances are the mechanics remain the same, stacking removed, no one plays the class anymore =).

Scootabuser.4915:

Cheezy.2039:

I wish people would stop throwing around numbers without showing any background.

What buffs do you assume?
I can’t picture Engi, with all buffs and a good rotation, doing less than 25k DPS while I don’t see condi Berserker with “average” buffs dishing out 32k DPS.
What rotation do you assume?
Sure, without Alacrity and without having to dodge once I can get out 4x Scorched Earth per Berserker. But when you have to dodge once at the wrong time you will either miss out on the 4th use entirely or it will be mispositioned, etc.

Not sure how you get your Numbers of condi Warrior still having competitive DPS when it’s a single Firefield. With 25 Might, 25 Furious, Fury, 25 Vuln, Banners, Empower Allies, Assassin’s Presence and this rotation I get 20.3k DPS. That’s not exactly competitive, especially when you lose the 4th Scorched Earth.

The exact numbers don’t matter much, the important thing is that burnzerkers are doing NOTICEABLY more damage in game, the fact that they also do on paper just supports that fact.

When you use numbers as an argument they should be as exact as possible, they should have proof and if you give the same resources to others they should arrive at the same result/conclusion. That’s the point of numbers, having an ABSOLUTE argument. I could also claim that my Magi Dragonhunter can reach 35k DPS but it’s meaningless without proof.

I don’t think anyone is contesting that condi Warrior is currently best-in-slot DPS (actually, wasn’t it your guild claiming that venom share thief is best condi DPS? and Daredevil second best DPS in raids overall?). But claiming that it is 40% better than the alternatives without any backup of your numbers is manipulative at best.

insanemaniac.2456:

common sense. this person speaks it.

A point. This person doesn’t have one.

so what you guys are trying to say is that you would rather have a condi war than a condi thief?!
absurd.

Scorched earth needs toning down to balance the condi classes. I dont see how its even a topic up for debate.

Also revenant sword auto needs nerfing. It has the same coefficient per second as gravedigger spam. While also having way more damage modifiers in traits and so much group buffing. How that came to be, i have no idea… Reminds me of old school warrior.

spoj.9672:

Scorched earth needs toning down to balance the condi classes. I dont see how its even a topic up for debate.

Noone is debating that it’s balanced, but suggesting a 25% nerf to a build based on arbitrary numbers is a bit too much, don’t you think?

First, a build that focus on the potential of only 1 skill is bound to fall down at the first balance patch… Because that mean there is an imbalance if player exploit only 1 skill (Fiery rush/Icebow reminder). So I think that at the moment warrior should enjoy there luck but not keep their hope to high for their dominant build.

On second though, I think more or less that the issue is not the skill but the burn condition. At the moment burn do way to much damage for other condition to keep up. I think the current number would have been ok if burning skill weren’t spamable and burn stayed a low duration condition. Issue is that expertise has come and burn can be spam as much as bleed.

For me, just lowering the burn scaling coefficient should be enough to bring an illusion of balance.

Dadnir.5038:

First, a build that focus on the potential of only 1 skill is bound to fall down at the first balance patch… Because that mean there is an imbalance if player exploit only 1 skill (Fiery rush/Icebow reminder). So I think that at the moment warrior should enjoy there luck but not keep their hope to high for their dominant build.

On second though, I think more or less that the issue is not the skill but the burn condition. At the moment burn do way to much damage for other condition to keep up. I think the current number would have been ok if burning skill weren’t spamable and burn stayed a low duration condition. Issue is that expertise has come and burn can be spam as much as bleed.

For me, just lowering the burn scaling coefficient should be enough to bring an illusion of balance.

That would nerf every class that uses burns, and make condi necro even stronger then it is now.

spoj.9672:

Scorched earth needs toning down to balance the condi classes. I dont see how its even a topic up for debate.

Also revenant sword auto needs nerfing. It has the same coefficient per second as gravedigger spam. While also having way more damage modifiers in traits and so much group buffing. How that came to be, i have no idea… Reminds me of old school warrior.

rev auto isnt what makes revenant dps strong and if they nerf it they will have to rework the class entirely.

Scootabuser.4915:

Dadnir.5038:

First, a build that focus on the potential of only 1 skill is bound to fall down at the first balance patch… Because that mean there is an imbalance if player exploit only 1 skill (Fiery rush/Icebow reminder). So I think that at the moment warrior should enjoy there luck but not keep their hope to high for their dominant build.

On second though, I think more or less that the issue is not the skill but the burn condition. At the moment burn do way to much damage for other condition to keep up. I think the current number would have been ok if burning skill weren’t spamable and burn stayed a low duration condition. Issue is that expertise has come and burn can be spam as much as bleed.

For me, just lowering the burn scaling coefficient should be enough to bring an illusion of balance.

That would nerf every class that uses burns, and make condi necro even stronger then it is now.

Which wouldn’t be a bad thing, since Necromancer was designed as profession specializing in everything related to conditions and has lower support capabilities.

Yeah Burnzerkers are making engi’s become unemployed. It’s not fair that heavy armors can deal more damage than medium armor lol.

NoTrigger.8396:

spoj.9672:

Scorched earth needs toning down to balance the condi classes. I dont see how its even a topic up for debate.

Also revenant sword auto needs nerfing. It has the same coefficient per second as gravedigger spam. While also having way more damage modifiers in traits and so much group buffing. How that came to be, i have no idea… Reminds me of old school warrior.

rev auto isnt what makes revenant dps strong and if they nerf it they will have to rework the class entirely.

Well it clearly is a big factor since it has the same coefficient per second as gravedigger and the class has way more damage modifiers….

And i dont see how they would need to rework it. Just tone the numbers down slightly. And reduce the damage modifiers from 7% to 5%. If its brought down to 1.3 per second instead of 1.5 then its still very strong but not brokenly strong on a buffer class.

What does armour weight have to do with what your dps should be in pve?

spoj.9672:

NoTrigger.8396:

spoj.9672:

Scorched earth needs toning down to balance the condi classes. I dont see how its even a topic up for debate.

Also revenant sword auto needs nerfing. It has the same coefficient per second as gravedigger spam. While also having way more damage modifiers in traits and so much group buffing. How that came to be, i have no idea… Reminds me of old school warrior.

rev auto isnt what makes revenant dps strong and if they nerf it they will have to rework the class entirely.

Well it clearly is a big factor since it has the same coefficient per second as gravedigger and the class has way more damage modifiers….

And i dont see how they would need to rework it. Just tone the numbers down slightly. And reduce the damage modifiers from 7% to 5%. If its brought down to 1.3 per second instead of 1.5 then its still very strong but not brokenly strong on a buffer class.

revenant is all about using your utility skills and managing your energy and what makes the dps so strong is sword 2. if you nerf the autoattack the class will be kitten. so if they nerf it they will have to rework at least sword 3 and axe 4 to make up for the lost dps and to make the class more rotational + increase the base energy to 75, which is not going to happen because it would be op in pvp. and every class is a buffer class.

also there are classes that deal higher dps than revenant so if you are just tunnelvisioning on dps then warrior, ele and engi need massive nerfs.

if you want necro to be good then ask for buffs instead of nerfs for other classes.

Im not tunnel visioning. Revenants auto is stronger than any auto in game and its unconditional unlike gravedigger. Thats not right. It needs to be shaved down slightly. If its 1.4 coef per second instead of 1.5 it still beats gravedigger purely on auto attack just because of damage modifiers. Auto-attacks should not be that strong on any class. Gravedigger should be the only exception to this rule since its very conditional, slow and easily rupted causing major dps loss.

Rev would not need buffs elsewhere to bring the class back. My entire point is revenant does too much damage overall considering how useful it is as a buffer and auto-attack is the one part of that which isnt justifiable. Warrior could also do with being dropped down a notch. The only reason i suggest these is because i know for certainty they wont buff necro damage further. They have never once made a change like that to bring classes in line. Its always been nerfs. Im not suggesting huge nerfs. Im suggesting very minor ones. Most players wouldnt even notice the difference.

PS. I dont know if you realise. But most auto-attacks are about 1.2 or lower coeffs per second. Rev sword being 1.5 is huge especially with all the easy big damage modifiers they get. If you ignore rift explosions the auto is still 1.4 per second…

revenant literally only has 2 weapon skills to deal damage because its all about the utility skills and energy, thats why the AA needs to be good and thats the problem. rev is different compared to other classes and their design and thats what you have to keep in mind. if you just AA your dps will be kittening kitten. now imagine a boss fight in a raid wing without adds…..

if the class was more rotational i would agree with nerfing AA. but thats not the case and probably wont be.

I would not really consider revenant as too strong, imo its the most overrated class atm. Ofc you want to have one revenant because of the 50% boon duration for the mesmer, but what utilities other then that do you really need?
For three years people were able to get fury from other sources and only because revenant can now maintain perma-fury by just clicking one button the class isn’t op.