Guild Wars 2

Rym.1469:

spoj.9672:

Revenant will be meta even without its broken damage. Dont see why you are so against minor nerfs to bring equality among the other classes. Power creeping the classes to get equality is not going to happen and it shouldnt happen. So the classes that are too high on the damage table need to be brought down a notch especially if they already have indispensable other roles (this goes for all classes in this category, not just revenant). It doesnt make sense to give a class some of the best utility roles and the best damage at the same time. I dont understand why people dont get the logic of this concept.

Look at chronomancer. Its absolutely amazing for utility and unique buffs. But its damage is rather mediocre. Thats perfect balance wise. Its how it should be. The only classes that should be top dps are the ones which have very little utility and group buffing.

As pretty much Revenant main and player since first profession preview beta, I agree. I’m fine with nerf to AA coupled with maybe little damage increases to other skills.

I think people who yell that they would have to use other skills costing energy for max DPS forget that Revenant’s profession mechanic is energy management, not enabling 3 facets and watching netflix.

Upkeeping facets in combat forever should have never been the case and optimal thing. Sure, there are things that separate good PvE Revenant from bad one, but aside from some moments, upkeeping facets and AAing is what you are doing for majority of the time, regardless of encounter.

I agree with everything you said except the last sentence. What will separate good PvE revenants/heralds from bad ones is utility usage and legend swaps for utility usage. Playing a revenant/herald is almost like playing an elementalist. You have 10 utility skills to consider at any point in time + your legend swap traits. Its like attunement switching except you aren’t swapping just to cycle through them for damage….you cycle through them as needed for functionality. The herald utilities have two stage usage, so you need to make use of the second stage of activation as well when it matters. Every one of the herald utilities has a useful second stage…situational but useful.

spoj.9672:

Yeah see i dont usually advocate nerfs. Because i think a bit of powercreep is good for the game. But lets be honest its a bit much right now. And the powercreep is stacked onto the classes/places which were already strong. Theres only two solutions. Nerf the outliers or buff the rest. Since we already have a lot of powercreep nerfing seems like the only viable option.

Im not lobbying for everyone else to get nerfed. Im lobbying for the clearly over the top factors to get toned down. Id say the same thing for reaper if there was anything that was broken on it but anet have always been very careful with necro (see cast times and cooldowns on reaper compared to revenant). So far the only broken thing on necro is a gimmicky niche usage of epidemic and jagged horrors on Sabetha.

And just to go on record. I would be perfectly fine with revenant achieving as much dps as it does if it had a much greater skill requirement to pull off. Its baffling that people think an auto attack that strong is balanced.

I’m on board with them redistributing a small amount of rev/herald auto attack damage onto the other weapon skills, but I don’t really trust them to do a good job with that. They have a bad habit of taking without giving back. Ultimately, redistributing aa damage over other weapon skills is a minor issue…since you already acknowledged that you were fine with revs achieving as much dps as they already do. It looks like its just the issue of that damage being on the auto attack, that you really don’t like. We also have to factor in ANET’s focus on trying to ensure casuals/bads play with as few reality checks to their skill level as possible. Revenants/heralds and thieves/daredevils are the only classes with default weapon skills gated by their class resource. I’m sure ANET doesn’t want terribad play to completely lock them out of even being able to kill something by auto attacking.

Balancing damage around one game aspect is not wise.
Ultimately in any boss encounter, once the boss is defeated the entire group gets the reward. So what does it truly matter if one specific build using very specific runes etc does more overall damage on very specific bosses with multiple hit boxes?

Ultimately warrior is still in a terrible universal position. The era of meta teams is now over and meta abilities has taken it’s place. All teams in raids or fractals are ultimately looking for;
1) Alacrity/team quickness
2) fast break bar/CC
3) Boon share
4)High vulnerability up time
5)Combo fields

Warrior performs poorly to mediocre in all these areas. In order to perform at the most entry level they sacrifice a lot of of the one thing they do well, which is damage.

Just because one profession can do more damage than you doesn’t actually take anything away from you. In pretty much every other game mode currently warrior would pretty much kill to have 25% of what other professions bring to the able. There is also the issue that a game should be fun. Playing warrior currently is not fun. Burn skill, more burn skill, add some more burn skill, berserk on cool down, burn..burn some more..throw in more burn uptime..burn..burn again..it’s mind numbing boring to play.

The whole conversation basically looks like someone with a fun and rewarding job complaining that someone else gets paid more than them, even though their job terrible.

You forgot to include might and banners in your list of what teams are looking for.

So what does it truly matter if one specific build using very specific runes etc does more overall damage on very specific bosses with multiple hit boxes?

It’s really really unhealthy for the game and a poor player experience.

IMO the amount of damage you do should never change based on how big the enemy hit box is. It’s a completely trival mechanic that has nothing to do with the player. Otherwise we will always have this weird dynamic where certain classes are ridiculously good on a few bosses and just okay on others or need completely different gear on different bosses to do the same role.

Some variance is healthy, but 40% difference is not.

Hey scoots, I’m Ziggy (Engi) or Madame Le Blanc (Mesmer).

In the past few weeks I’ve been working on a reality rotation dps spreadsheet including Alacrity, Quickness and an average Grace of the Land uptime with a 4/9 chance to optain. I’ve been working nearly 40 hours just for the engineer. I’m going to release it this week.

Therefore I tested EVERYTHING and threw like 100 nade autos at each boss to find their armor. Apparently the armor matches with the current base armor of enemies with the light, medium and heavy classes.

TL;DR:
Vale Guardian – 2000 armor
Gorseval – 2600 armor
Sabetha – 2200 armor

You’re welcome If you might be interested in some other stuff, let me know, maybe I already made the calculations about it.

Greez!
- Ziggy / Madame Le Blanc

Tbh revenant is only medium dps. There are three classes that do more dps (ele,engi,war). If revenant dps gets nerfed, at some point people will just run mesmers with commander gear, since mesmer dps is bad anyway, and no one will take revenants anymore.
Anet wont buff sword 3 because then it would be too strong in pvp. Sword 2 is already good. So if anything they should rather improve the utilities in Jalis and Mallyx stances since on both stances you only use one skill that stays then passive for the whole duration of the stance.

Revenant dps gets a huge boost from mes. But what makes him a solid pick is his passive damage. The boon duration helps war to not use fried golden dumlings or even scholar instead of strength. Then there is fury, wich only ele can provide via blasts but that’s in the past now. Even with a 15-20k dps rev would be in every party. About that mes dmg tough, it’s not low anyore. Exact numbers inc in a few weeks.

spoj.9672:

chronomancer. Thats perfect balance wise.

Please tell me what you’ve been smoking because I desperately need some

Xyonon.3987:

Revenant dps gets a huge boost from mes. But what makes him a solid pick is his passive damage. The boon duration helps war to not use fried golden dumlings or even scholar instead of strength. Then there is fury, wich only ele can provide via blasts but that’s in the past now. Even with a 15-20k dps rev would be in every party. About that mes dmg tough, it’s not low anyore. Exact numbers inc in a few weeks.

Even with quickness rev dps is still not top tier. And the boon duration for the warrior alone is no reason to bring a rev. Fury you can get from warrior, ranger and ele, and mesmer can even copy it.

Lendruil.9061:

Xyonon.3987:

Revenant dps gets a huge boost from mes. But what makes him a solid pick is his passive damage. The boon duration helps war to not use fried golden dumlings or even scholar instead of strength. Then there is fury, wich only ele can provide via blasts but that’s in the past now. Even with a 15-20k dps rev would be in every party. About that mes dmg tough, it’s not low anyore. Exact numbers inc in a few weeks.

Even with quickness rev dps is still not top tier. And the boon duration for the warrior alone is no reason to bring a rev. Fury you can get from warrior, ranger and ele, and mesmer can even copy it.

I don’t want to talk big right now, since I haven’t calculated the true dps of the rev in raids. I expect him to be lower than engi, abour medium-high. But the damage you gain for ALL the other professions being able to focus on their dmg will definitly be worth it.

NoTrigger.8396:

and a ps warrior can achieve more than 16-17k.

I would love to see a video with Janx of this… My PS warrior gets 11k dps in full ascended.

For comparision I get 18k dps on my condi necro and 21k dps on my fresh air ele. (single target, if I start hitting walls or seekers then I get 30k+)

Ive still yet to see anyone pull off this so called top tier dps on engi btw. Can someone link me a video.

Ive seen very good dps on engi. But nothing that warrants a nerf due to the skill cap required to pull that level off. And the max level ive seen doesnt seem to be as high as everyone keeps making it out to be.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

NoTrigger.8396:

and a ps warrior can achieve more than 16-17k.

I would love to see a video with Janx of this… My PS warrior gets 11k dps in full ascended.

For comparision I get 18k dps on my condi necro and 21k dps on my fresh air ele. (single target, if I start hitting walls or seekers then I get 30k+)

you can archive a bit more on VG since he has less toughness

BlackDragon.3752:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

NoTrigger.8396:

and a ps warrior can achieve more than 16-17k.

I would love to see a video with Janx of this… My PS warrior gets 11k dps in full ascended.

For comparision I get 18k dps on my condi necro and 21k dps on my fresh air ele. (single target, if I start hitting walls or seekers then I get 30k+)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfBpmm3Cres

you can archive a bit more on VG since he has less toughness

Ok… not sure what that is supposed to show, that isn’t a PS warrior. That is a DPS Zerker build and doesn’t even use the tactics line, or run banners, or run EA.

Lendruil.9061:

Tbh revenant is only medium dps. There are three classes that do more dps (ele,engi,war). If revenant dps gets nerfed, at some point people will just run mesmers with commander gear, since mesmer dps is bad anyway, and no one will take revenants anymore.
Anet wont buff sword 3 because then it would be too strong in pvp. Sword 2 is already good. So if anything they should rather improve the utilities in Jalis and Mallyx stances since on both stances you only use one skill that stays then passive for the whole duration of the stance.

Passive Perma-fury/+50%boon uptime / Might stacks. And the perma-swiftness is nice. They do many essential things with little to no effort.

Revs DPS has nothing to do with why they’re important for raids. A damage nerf would not change that.

Don’t really think it’s necessary to nerf their damage, though.

you expect too much ‘balance’ from a game in which the most damaging bow professions wear heavy armors.

Kagamiku.9731:

Lendruil.9061:

Tbh revenant is only medium dps. There are three classes that do more dps (ele,engi,war). If revenant dps gets nerfed, at some point people will just run mesmers with commander gear, since mesmer dps is bad anyway, and no one will take revenants anymore.
Anet wont buff sword 3 because then it would be too strong in pvp. Sword 2 is already good. So if anything they should rather improve the utilities in Jalis and Mallyx stances since on both stances you only use one skill that stays then passive for the whole duration of the stance.

Passive Perma-fury/+50%boon uptime / Might stacks. And the perma-swiftness is nice. They do many essential things with little to no effort.

Revs DPS has nothing to do with why they’re important for raids. A damage nerf would not change that.

Don’t really think it’s necessary to nerf their damage, though.

Back to the classics I see….the old 6/6/6/6/6 builds. Those “essential” things you listed are not things the profession does all at the same time. That’s between 7-9 upkeep there…the difference between 7 and 9 being whether or not they are actually running facet of strength to make the might stacks relevant. Revenants only get 5 energy generation pips maximum. Every attack and utility costs energy except for the auto attack. Perma swiftness is not a combat essential…that’s the first thing a herald disables during combat…unless other players are providing fury/might.

There were and still are other sources for anything the Herald provides, with the exception of the 50% boon uptime. Tempest/Ele can still provide perma fury, warriors/berserkers can still provide 25 might better than any other profession, many professions provide aoe swiftness when needed. This is basically an exaggeration some people have in their heads about revenants/heralds and how much they think groups depend on revenants/heralds for. Revenants/heralds are gap fillers buff wise…they only run facet of strength (might) in the absence of a PS warrior. Its really only important to run facet of nature (50% boon uptime) in the presence of a chronomancer who actually uses wells. Facet of darkness (fury) is the boon we bring most, just because it is more consistent/less work for others, if we provide that boon.

A damage nerf…based on exaggerations of buff utility…for a class that is already not in top tier dps…would be ridiculous. That much is a agreed upon.

The boon duration buff is enough to keep it in the meta simply because of quickness sharing on chrono.

Dont know why people keep claiming rev is not in top tier dps. It clearly is. Just because it doesnt do as much as extreme aoe abuse from ele and scorched earth abuse doesnt mean its low dps. You cant compare to broken damage and say its not top just because its not AS broken as the others. It comes down to one single truth. An auto attack should not be that strong.

spoj.9672:

The boon duration buff is enough to keep it in the meta simply because of quickness sharing on chrono.

Dont know why people keep claiming rev is not in top tier dps. It clearly is. Just because it doesnt do as much as extreme aoe abuse from ele and scorched earth abuse doesnt mean its low dps. You cant compare to broken damage and say its not top just because its not AS broken as the others. It comes down to one single truth. An auto attack should not be that strong.

If there is a significant gap between it and other classes…who are definitely at the top…then that is literally the definition of not being at the top. Perhaps that is the reason people keep claiming it is not top tier dps…because there is a tier of dps above it. Just because you are defining those in that group above, as “abusing”, does not make them not be above it. You already said that you were fine with the damage a herald does, in a previous post…that indicates that it’s dps isn’t a problem.

You have this fixation on which attack does the majority of damage on herald, but when you stop to think about it…would you really want them to redistribute the damage onto the other attacks? One being an aoe cleave, another being an aoe evade/attack, another being an unblockable ranged gap closer/attack, and another being a ranged aoe pull. This is the sword/axe set up that I’m just assuming you are referring to. I could see serious complaints if they upped the damage on either an evade/attack or an unblockable attack. I can see sword #2 and/or axe #5 getting some of the damage moved from the auto though. I don’t see how its that big of a deal considering the auto is melee range only and those other two actually have much better range. Its much easier to avoid a melee range attack than the other two. Plus the design of the profession makes the auto the only thing that works when energy is depleted. I can see how letting your energy get completely depleted is terrible play anyway and should not be rewarded though.

I agree though, the boon duration does keep it in the meta as long as chronomancers are in the meta. Synergy with other classes is a good thing.

Im not fine with its damage in its current form. There has to be some skill requirement or catch to high dps. Even eles and warriors have that catch going on. If they interrupt or miss their big attacks/channels they suffer huge dps losses. Revenant doesnt because its the auto attack that is so strong and its other big hit attacks are almost instant to top it off. There is almost no chance for poor execution which causes major dps loss on revenant. At least not compared to the level on other classes.

Its a slightly different problem to the other classes. But its still a major imbalance. Id be happy with either an overall slight damage nerf or a major change to make rev damage much more rotational and skill orientated. Seeing as a general nerf is easier and the class will stay in the meta due to boon duration while also still retaining high safe dps. I dont really see that as such an unthinkable change. For the sake of balance all problems should be addressed. Not just the absolute 1 or 2 worst offenders….

spoj.9672:

Im not fine with its damage in its current form. There has to be some skill requirement or catch to high dps. Even eles and warriors have that catch going on. If they interrupt or miss their big attacks/channels they suffer huge dps losses. Revenant doesnt because its the auto attack that is so strong and its other big hit attacks are almost instant to top it off. There is almost no chance for poor execution which causes major dps loss on revenant. At least not compared to the level on other classes.

Its a slightly different problem to the other classes. But its still a major imbalance. Id be happy with either an overall slight damage nerf or a major change to make rev damage much more rotational and skill orientated. Seeing as a general nerf is easier and the class will stay in the meta due to boon duration while also still retaining high safe dps. I dont really see that as such an unthinkable change. For the sake of balance all problems should be addressed. Not just the absolute 1 or 2 worst offenders….

I could definitely be wrong about this part, but aren’t Ele and Engi the only two professions with any type of true rotational dps? That’s pretty much a class design/play style issue. Are you really advocating that for all classes?…in this game? I have no idea about chances of failure on dps execution on an Ele/Tempest…as I always get tired of it and delete it before max level, but I have yet to see this high chance of failure on any class thus far…dps wise. I see you talking about chances of interruption…so I’m assuming you are referring to cast times? What melee build, on any class, has at least 1 second cast times on melee? If you are talking about cast times on long range attacks…that is apples to oranges.

Is this still about reapers?…and the design decision by ANET to make them slow attackers in melee? I’m still with you on the lack in logic with that decision…compared with every other profession. There’s not a lot that we can do about their design decisions on reapers/necros, but lets not take that frustration out on other professions in PvE. You seem to be pushing this agenda pretty hard. I see you talking about how professions that buff others should not have high dps…and I see follow up statements about how Ele/tempest, Berserker/Warr are “abusing”. I see your laser focus on Heralds…even going to the extent of advocating dps nerfs for a class not even at top dps levels….just because their dps is loaded on auto attacks. Ideally, this game should have every profession dishing out buffs/supporting groups, but ANET seems to be adamant on sticking to their selfish design for necros/reapers. If your underlying goal is to have everyone that can share buffs nerfed…to make necros/reapers seem more appealing in PvE…that’s a bit unfair.

I’ll throw this in there as well, not all revenants are heralds. Basing the validity of an unnecessary and unwarranted dps nerf…on the erroneous assumption that they still have 50% boon duration to contribute…is unfounded. All this based on the design outlier that is necro/reaper?

Im not saying its hard to pull off max dps on other classes. But there are certainly huge losses from dodging at the wrong time etc etc on all classes except for revenant. Thats the key difference.

spoj.9672:

Im not saying its hard to pull off max dps on other classes. But there are certainly huge losses from dodging at the wrong time etc etc on all classes except for revenant. Thats the key difference.

Now that is a design issue. I say this because the revenant/herald is not gated by cool downs…but by energy managment and legend swapping mechanics. Even if you redistributed some of the damage (still not top tier damage) between weapon skills instead of the auto, there still would not be huge losses in dps due to an unplanned dodge or two. They made a conscious decision, due to class mechanics, to not have revenants/heralds quadruple gated…by energy, legend swaps, weapon swaps, and cool downs.

It sounds like the playstyle of revenants/heralds, by design, is just not to your liking. You’re right, it does not and probably will not have as complex of a play style as an Elementalist/Tempest or Engineer. Its pretty much as complex as a Berserker/Warrior though…due to the need to swap legends, weapons, manage energy, and use the appropriate actives and passives of facets as needed. Overall, the issue you have with the auto attack is not a major issue like you are making it out to be…at least not in PvE…which is the focus of this thread. If it was an issue, there would be much more revenant/herald representation in raids…instead of 1 or 2 per raid. Instead we are seeing the condi/burn meta in raids for dps representation. PvP/WvW may be a different issue though…but I don’t really play those game modes…so I just go by what I see people post…and that is about Mallyx condi issues. That seems to have nothing to do with auto attacks.

Erm revenant weapon skills still have cooldowns. The design flaw stems from a far too significant portion of the damage being on auto attack.

I dont have a problem with the way the class is designed. I have a problem with its results from completely passive play. Its imbalanced.

Also before people were stacking burn warriors. They were stacking heralds for dps.

spoj.9672:

Erm revenant weapon skills still have cooldowns. The design flaw stems from a far too significant portion of the damage being on auto attack.

I dont have a problem with the way the class is designed. I have a problem with its results from completely passive play. Its imbalanced.

Also before people were stacking burn warriors. They were stacking heralds for dps.

If you are referring to cool downs of 4 seconds, 12 seconds, 12 seconds, and 15 seconds respectively…after the auto attack…then these cool downs are pretty much meaningless…just like the cool downs on most classes when in the pairing this all seems to be about…with a chronomancer. Exactly what’s going to change by redistributing this damage more across the other weapon skills besides the auto? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against them redistributing it among the other weapon skills to a small degree…but like in my previous post…not really trusting them to redistribute…they are bad about making one sided changes…taking and not giving elsewhere. I just don’t see this being the major issue you are making it out to be…especially not for the underlying motivations you seem to have.

I also don’t see the play style of the revenant/herald through the oversimplification lens you are seeing it through. Just because the facets are toggle/upkeep abilities…does not mean the play style is “completely passive”. Facets have an active ability, just like signets. Good players will activate the active when appropriate…not passive play. Good players will not be running redundant upkeep facets when that buff is already present in the group…situation awareness…not passive play. Good players will swap legends to gain access to useful utilities/legend swap effects as appropriate….not passive play. Good players will also weapon swap as appropriate for useful weapon skills like the hammer reflect, blast finishers, knock down, etc…not passive play. I’m not really seeing how this profession is all about completely passive play like you are portraying it. If you are referring to how bads play it…then you can say that about any profession.

Yes, when there is a shiny new profession out there…people will see it and bandwagon that it is OP. So, of course, there was high representation until people paid attention to what the other professions were actually capable of in comparison. People thought tempests were weak too…now look at them. Once people back off from their bias and pay attention/learn the changes…then things even out. You see they are no longer stacking heralds for dps…because doing so is redundant and does not equate to a dps gain.

spoj.9672:

Im not saying its hard to pull off max dps on other classes. But there are certainly huge losses from dodging at the wrong time etc etc on all classes except for revenant. Thats the key difference.

dodging will always result in dps loss, thats why you dont dodge when you dont have to.

spoj.9672:

Erm revenant weapon skills still have cooldowns. The design flaw stems from a far too significant portion of the damage being on auto attack.

different classes are different, even tho i wish rev had a more complicated rotation because the difference between bad, good and great revs would be even bigger.
and so far 9/10 revs dont know how the class works.

spoj.9672:

I dont have a problem with the way the class is designed. I have a problem with its results from completely passive play. Its imbalanced.

Also before people were stacking burn warriors. They were stacking heralds for dps.

i dont know what you mean by “passive play”.

and people were stacking revs because they overestimated rev dps and underestimated tempest, condi warrior and engi dps.

Nemesis dropped the hint in his last video that the Warrior is the class most benefits from Alacrity and Quickness provide from Chronomancers.

Probably he means reduced CDs for Berserker skills and reduced cast times of the weapon because of the perma quickness.

I guess there lies the problem, without perma alacrity and quickness warrior will not be that powerful so the solution is to make other classes synergies that good with Chronomancer.

Example, all Rev DPS nearly comes from AA chain and Alacrity does nearly nothing for a Rev.

NoTrigger.8396:

dodging will always result in dps loss, thats why you dont dodge when you dont have to.

except for reve, the class that actually keeps dpsing even when dodging cough unrelenting assault cough

NoTrigger.8396:

different classes are different, even tho i wish rev had a more complicated rotation because the difference between bad, good and great revs would be even bigger.
and so far 9/10 revs dont know how the class works.

There’s absolutely no difference between bad and great revenants in a raid setup. Because any bad can learn to manage the energy/rotation properly in less than 30 minutes. You’re a great player? Well sorry, that’s all what the class has to offer right now. Also, any moron can get a full ascended set in less than a week. Since reve is 95% auto-attack, the class lacks any “jukes” since pretty much most rev skills are a dps loss. I have many good players in my friends list, and every single one of them rerolled from reve because of the low skillcap that makes it so popular. Including myself. Frustrating, right?

Raizen.7981:

There’s absolutely no difference between bad and great revenants in a raid setup. Because any bad can learn to manage the energy/rotation properly in less than 30 minutes. You’re a great player? Well sorry, that’s all what the class has to offer right now. Also, any moron can get a full ascended set in less than a week. Since reve is 95% auto-attack, the class lacks any “jukes” since pretty much most rev skills are a dps loss. I have many good players in my friends list, and every single one of them rerolled from reve because of the low skillcap that makes it so popular. Including myself. Frustrating, right?

alright, i am waiting for your parses then.

I thought this thread was about burn zerkers?

Tree.3916:

I thought this thread was about burn zerkers?

Sssh, we’re hiding from a fire field nerf.

And necros whining. About everything.
… I can relate.

posthumecaver.6473:

Nemesis dropped the hint in his last video that the Warrior is the class most benefits from Alacrity and Quickness provide from Chronomancers.

Since warrior has the worst auto attack of any meta build, that wasn’t exactly a bold call.

Tree.3916:

I thought this thread was about burn zerkers?

People noticed that OP made arguments based on numbers that he pulled out of nowhere and moved on to what they find important

NikeEU.7690:

posthumecaver.6473:

Nemesis dropped the hint in his last video that the Warrior is the class most benefits from Alacrity and Quickness provide from Chronomancers.

Since warrior has the worst auto attack of any meta build, that wasn’t exactly a bold call.

Does it have to be a bold call?

Men you really have a weak point for Nemesis

ODB.6891:

Kagamiku.9731:

Lendruil.9061:

Tbh revenant is only medium dps. There are three classes that do more dps (ele,engi,war). If revenant dps gets nerfed, at some point people will just run mesmers with commander gear, since mesmer dps is bad anyway, and no one will take revenants anymore.
Anet wont buff sword 3 because then it would be too strong in pvp. Sword 2 is already good. So if anything they should rather improve the utilities in Jalis and Mallyx stances since on both stances you only use one skill that stays then passive for the whole duration of the stance.

Passive Perma-fury/+50%boon uptime / Might stacks. And the perma-swiftness is nice. They do many essential things with little to no effort.

Revs DPS has nothing to do with why they’re important for raids. A damage nerf would not change that.

Don’t really think it’s necessary to nerf their damage, though.

Back to the classics I see….the old 6/6/6/6/6 builds. Those “essential” things you listed are not things the profession does all at the same time. That’s between 7-9 upkeep there…the difference between 7 and 9 being whether or not they are actually running facet of strength to make the might stacks relevant.

This isn’t a 6/6/6/6/6 build. Just because a rev has to occasionally swap to a different stance when it runs out of energy. You can perma upkeep all of that except for the boon duration which obviously leaves you when you swap. But you’re in dragon stance the majority of the time and you only need the boon duration when the chrono is stacking quickness on everyone. The boon duration and the perma fury is insanely good. Not to mention the added might stacks to help the PS warrior maintain the full 25 stacks and the swiftness for added movement. Yes, other classes can do this stuff too, but none of them can do it as easily as a revenant and none of them can do all of those things like a revenant can. The 50% boon duration seals the deal as being one of the best utility skills in the game.

So yes, I still believe they would be meta even if their damage was reduced. Their utility skills are simply too good to not have.

The only buffs rev is good for are fury and boonduration. But only the boonduration is rly good since you can get the fury with tempest other warriors or the tiger pet as druid. The only rly good point about rev is the boonduration while having a good dps, if they nerf the dps rev will be out of meta fast since you can get rid of the boonduration with things like commander gear/other runes.

Kagamiku.9731:

ODB.6891:

Kagamiku.9731:

Lendruil.9061:

Tbh revenant is only medium dps. There are three classes that do more dps (ele,engi,war). If revenant dps gets nerfed, at some point people will just run mesmers with commander gear, since mesmer dps is bad anyway, and no one will take revenants anymore.
Anet wont buff sword 3 because then it would be too strong in pvp. Sword 2 is already good. So if anything they should rather improve the utilities in Jalis and Mallyx stances since on both stances you only use one skill that stays then passive for the whole duration of the stance.

Passive Perma-fury/+50%boon uptime / Might stacks. And the perma-swiftness is nice. They do many essential things with little to no effort.

Revs DPS has nothing to do with why they’re important for raids. A damage nerf would not change that.

Don’t really think it’s necessary to nerf their damage, though.

Back to the classics I see….the old 6/6/6/6/6 builds. Those “essential” things you listed are not things the profession does all at the same time. That’s between 7-9 upkeep there…the difference between 7 and 9 being whether or not they are actually running facet of strength to make the might stacks relevant.

This isn’t a 6/6/6/6/6 build. Just because a rev has to occasionally swap to a different stance when it runs out of energy. You can perma upkeep all of that except for the boon duration which obviously leaves you when you swap. But you’re in dragon stance the majority of the time and you only need the boon duration when the chrono is stacking quickness on everyone. The boon duration and the perma fury is insanely good. Not to mention the added might stacks to help the PS warrior maintain the full 25 stacks and the swiftness for added movement. Yes, other classes can do this stuff too, but none of them can do it as easily as a revenant and none of them can do all of those things like a revenant can. The 50% boon duration seals the deal as being one of the best utility skills in the game.

So yes, I still believe they would be meta even if their damage was reduced. Their utility skills are simply too good to not have.

Whether they would be “meta” or not is not even really relevant to the issue. The issue is the intense desire you guys seem to have to nerf the damage output of a profession that clearly isn’t in need of a damage nerf…for whatever personal reasons. Its pretty well agreed that revenants/heralds aren’t top contenders for the damage title. They are about top of the middle tier…which is where most professions should be.

The whole “meta” angle you guys are taking just seems like an excuse to take a stab at a profession you don’t like for some reason. Just because they offer a useful buff to the party…does not mean that it should be neutered in other areas. I can’t believe there’s this much hate over a boon duration buff…that’s shared with the entire party. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised though….players came after PS warriors, chronomancers, and even Elementalists (in their fire field blasting days) with similar zeal. They even came after guards and mesmers about reflects. I guess anything that anyone else has…that is desired…is going to be a target.

I’m seriously questioning your knowledge of heralds, with that statement about the boon duration leaving when you swap…because it does not. The only thing that swaps is the utility bar, when you swap legends. To my knowledge the only two ways to make the boon duration stop are to run out of energy or actually activate the final stage of the facet.

Rev is one of the classes I use for raids(warr/rev/mes currently), I’m not for or against a damage nerf. But in my opinion, they simply provide too much damage with their auto attacks. And even if their damage was nerfed, their utility would still make them meta.

As for your final point, yes, I know. But without making sure facet of strength is depleted before swapping then you can’t impossible odds. Of course, with a mesmer that’s not even needed since you’ll be running Demon Stance anyways…making the whole skill that much stronger.

Well with that you just showed why it doesn’t need to be 6/6/6/6/6 to obtain perma of all of the boons +fos. Their duration is long enough to persist when out of DS until you swap back into DS to replenish their durations.

BlackDragon.3752:

The only buffs rev is good for are fury and boonduration. But only the boonduration is rly good since you can get the fury with tempest other warriors or the tiger pet as druid. The only rly good point about rev is the boonduration while having a good dps, if they nerf the dps rev will be out of meta fast since you can get rid of the boonduration with things like commander gear/other runes.

You can’t hit 100% without a rev. Mesmer can only hit 80% assuming they max out boon duration in every way possible. Armor/runes/food. Chronomancer runes are definitely better than leadership runes so that’s not recommended, either. So with a revenant they can roughly 100% boon duration while still keeping chronomancer runes. Not to mention the rest of the classes that benefit from boon duration who would be sacrificing a massive amount of damage if they swapped to boon dur armor/runes.

A classes damage is far less important than their utility when it comes to group content. The only reason thieves and guardians are rarely ever seen in raids is because they provide almost nothing for the team. Reflects and invis are pointless in the first raid wing.

I hope they nerf dmg and leave boon duration alone, because if they do nerf the boon duration and leave the dmg alone runes of surging on chrono may rear their ugly heads again and if… if… God… if I have to farm them again in tangled depths I think I’ll just have a mental breakdown.
Or commanders gear.
Or leadership runes.
For the love of Seabiscuit…

Kagamiku.9731:

Rev is one of the classes I use for raids(warr/rev/mes currently), I’m not for or against a damage nerf. But in my opinion, they simply provide too much damage with their auto attacks. And even if their damage was nerfed, their utility would still make them meta.

Not getting this fixation on which attack does the majority of their damage. Would all this nerf crying really stop if it was spread out more between the weapon skills? I’m not seeing the actual logic here. The only real reasons to decrease the damage output of a class would be if either they were actually doing too much damage (which we already know isn’t the case) or if the class was disproportionately represented due to being deemed indispensable (also not the case as heralds are not being stacked in any content mode). This whole, “they would still be meta” argument doesn’t really make sense to justify such a change in damage output, when neither of the previously mentioned conditions are met.

As for your final point, yes, I know. But without making sure facet of strength is depleted before swapping then you can’t impossible odds. Of course, with a mesmer that’s not even needed since you’ll be running Demon Stance anyways…making the whole skill that much stronger.

I’m assuming you mean the Shiro legend and not Mallyx? Mallyx is pretty weak for instanced PvE as its primary condi is torment…which requires enemies to run around a lot to be at max effectiveness. So assuming you meant Shiro…this legend is actually less effective with a Chronomancer…as the quickness from impossible odds becomes unnecessary.

Kagamiku.9731:

Well with that you just showed why it doesn’t need to be 6/6/6/6/6 to obtain perma of all of the boons +fos. Their duration is long enough to persist when out of DS until you swap back into DS to replenish their durations.

Again, the only boons consistently being applied by a herald are fury and a few stacks of might….the might part being completely overshadowed by PS from a warr/berserker…so what is this “perma of all the boons” that we are generating? I’m pretty sure the perma fury is intended…and we aren’t the only class capable of that. Warrs do perma might without us involved. If it was necessary, guards could do perma prot without us. The only boon that we make perma is quickness…and Chronomancers could come pretty close to that without us if necessary. Its FoN btw and I’m still not seeing how this ties into needing a damage nerf for the revenant/herald? By that token any class that has a unique party buff or has synergy with another profession, needs a damage nerf…which also makes no sense.

I’m also pretty sure the intended design of the revenant/herald is to swap legends and maintain the buffs glint provides…that’s why the herald mechanic persists between legends, the legend cool down is as low as it is, our only energy replenishing mechanic is legend swapping, and why we can’t customize our utility bar in a legend. Not seeing this “everything all at once” that you are saying revenants/heralds are doing. What I do see is that our mechanic works well with one class in particular…which benefits the group play of all…while still not causing an over representation and still not having us topping any damage dealt rankings.

Kagamiku.9731:

A classes damage is far less important than their utility when it comes to group content. The only reason thieves and guardians are rarely ever seen in raids is because they provide almost nothing for the team. Reflects and invis are pointless in the first raid wing.

Not sure that is a completely true statement. Utility is important, but at the end of the day…utility does not kill the enemy. The objective in this game is still to make enemy health bars = zero. That being said, I’m still not seeing an actual justification for why revenants/heralds need a damage nerf. All I have seen so far is hyperbole regarding what a revenant/herald does and is capable of. Well, to be fair…I’ve also seen dislike from other professions about the distribution of damage between weapon skills for revenant/herald 1h sword. By all means..if that is such a game breaking issue…yes..swap some of the damage to sword #2 and #3. That may actually be a decent change…as it would possibly accomplish some of what others are asking for…more of a skill cap to distance them from players who just spam 11111 all day in glint. Maybe add a small energy cost increase to sword #2 to make it run us out of energy if we don’t legend swap frequently.

I agree with you 100% about thieves and guardians…ANET missed the mark designing any profession without meaningful utility to provide a group. I’d also include necros in that as well…I think they are the worst case of that design problem. Not only do they not contribute to group buffs…but they also are problematic with receiving group buffs. Self might stacking that isn’t shared with the group….preventing them from benefitting from shared group might stacks…since they are already at max might stacks from their own traits. Missing group heals…since shroud still blocks those. 100% crit chance from their own traits…not shared with the group. I’d wager all the nerf cries would stop if ANET would make all professions provide useful group utility.

I would argue to agree with people, when HoT hit people opted for
| Rev | Tempests | Druids | Reapers | Chrono | for pretty much everything leaving the majority of MAIN thieves and warriors out of PvP because of how much bunker there is and one-shotting condi revs.

BURNZERKER Example:
Solo a Sin/Viper on average running Arms | 1 2 2 | Tactics | 3 2 2 | Zerker | 1 1 2 | with corruption stacks maining a longbow can average around 24k burn ticks on a good rotation depending on the bosses scaling toughness like in fractals and such.

If you throw in a chrono dropping alacrity perfectly and quickness as well while the rotation begins the damage spikes up above 30k once again depending on the rotation of you an your chrono.

In terms of boonsharing you would want to have…
6 Burnzerkers rolling scorching earth + FGJ + Blast finisher (3 stacks of might for 20 seconds increased by one revs facet of nature) so basically perma everything needed.

One PS running banners and [EMPOWER ALLIES]
One Druid for the damage buff and healing.
One Mesmer Tank for the alacrity and perma quicknes.
One Rev for Shiro 0, Staff 5 with Facet of Nature / Strength / Elements as darkness negates Burnzerkers.

In short I don’t think burnzerk needs to be nerfed.
They are utilizing themselves and other classes to be placed this high in damage, they are useless in PvP and changing this would make it even more useless, ANET never has done a good job balancing classes against one another, If they nerf burnzerkers they will not stop people from rolling 7 Tempests, or another comp.

Raids at this point are do-able even with a bunch of non-meta classes. It’s been already proven that with a full meta/maxed gear you can easily have 3-4 mins left on the clock(thanks dnt). This shows a lot. Indeed, why would you take a 15k dps dragonhunter over a 30k dps burnzerk, or why would you take a daredevil over a revenant- but that’s actually player preference. Players like to play it safe, that’s why there’s a lot of LFG requirements such as meta builds and gear. I don’t really know casual guilds that decline members from joining just because they aren’t meta. And if there are such guilds, then sorry, you’re with the wrong crew.

Point is, burnzerker is working as intended, it’s the people that over play it because, well, again, this spec is made for bosses and bosses only, and kitten, it excels at them. Since it’s below average in literally 99% of the game(wvw,pvp, any form of pve that doesn’t involve sustained dps on large hitbox targets with a lot of health) I can assure you that if its damage gets nerfed, you’ll never see a burnzerker again, in any form of content.

Raizen.7981:

Raids at this point are do-able even with a bunch of non-meta classes. It’s been already proven that with a full meta/maxed gear you can easily have 3-4 mins left on the clock(thanks dnt). This shows a lot. Indeed, why would you take a 15k dps dragonhunter over a 30k dps burnzerk, or why would you take a daredevil over a revenant- but that’s actually player preference. Players like to play it safe, that’s why there’s a lot of LFG requirements such as meta builds and gear. I don’t really know casual guilds that decline members from joining just because they aren’t meta. And if there are such guilds, then sorry, you’re with the wrong crew.

Point is, burnzerker is working as intended, it’s the people that over play it because, well, again, this spec is made for bosses and bosses only, and kitten, it excels at them. Since it’s below average in literally 99% of the game(wvw,pvp, any form of pve that doesn’t involve sustained dps on large hitbox targets with a lot of health) I can assure you that if its damage gets nerfed, you’ll never see a burnzerker again, in any form of content.

+1

ODB.6891:

Not getting this fixation on which attack does the majority of their damage. Would all this nerf crying really stop if it was spread out more between the weapon skills? I’m not seeing the actual logic here. The only real reasons to decrease the damage output of a class would be if either they were actually doing too much damage (which we already know isn’t the case) or if the class was disproportionately represented due to being deemed indispensable (also not the case as heralds are not being stacked in any content mode). This whole, “they would still be meta” argument doesn’t really make sense to justify such a change in damage output, when neither of the previously mentioned conditions are met.

Because when a classes damage is all relegated to his auto attack it becomes much too easy to bring out the max output of his damage. Take warrior for example, he misses a HB and his damage drops massively. This isn’t the issue with a revenant because all he needs to do is stick close and 11111 and swap stances when necessary.

I’m assuming you mean the Shiro legend and not Mallyx? Mallyx is pretty weak for instanced PvE as its primary condi is torment…which requires enemies to run around a lot to be at max effectiveness. So assuming you meant Shiro…this legend is actually less effective with a Chronomancer…as the quickness from impossible odds becomes unnecessary.

You use mallyx when you have a chrono on your team because impossible odds (shiro stance skill) isn’t needed and you want to have 100% FoS uptime. Mallyx is good for the elite skill because at least it provides a 10%boon to all stats while allowing you to maintain FoS. Impossible Odds can’t be used in conjunction with FoS so even if the Chronomancer doesn’t provide perma-quickness, you’d probably be better off running Mallyx.

ODB.6891:

Again, the only boons consistently being applied by a herald are fury and a few stacks of might….the might part being completely overshadowed by PS from a warr/berserker…so what is this “perma of all the boons” that we are generating? I’m pretty sure the perma fury is intended…and we aren’t the only class capable of that. Warrs do perma might without us involved. If it was necessary, guards could do perma prot without us. The only boon that we make perma is quickness…and Chronomancers could come pretty close to that without us if necessary. Its FoN btw and I’m still not seeing how this ties into needing a damage nerf for the revenant/herald? By that token any class that has a unique party buff or has synergy with another profession, needs a damage nerf…which also makes no sense.

Fury, Might and Swiftness are the important ones for raids. Revs can maintain more than just a few might stacks. While in Dragon Stance they can maintain upwards of 17might on their own, and with high enough boon duration they won’t lose many when swapping to shiro/mallyx. They can maintain even more in conjunction with Unrelenting Assault. Warriors can technically provide full might stacks on their own, but not on moving targets. It’s not that Revanents have a unique party buff, it’s that they can passively apply many of the most important boons to the whole party. FoS is icing on the cake and it’s one of the best skills in the game.

ODB.6891:

Not sure that is a completely true statement. Utility is important, but at the end of the day…utility does not kill the enemy. The objective in this game is still to make enemy health bars = zero. That being said, I’m still not seeing an actual justification for why revenants/heralds need a damage nerf. All I have seen so far is hyperbole regarding what a revenant/herald does and is capable of. Well, to be fair…I’ve also seen dislike from other professions about the distribution of damage between weapon skills for revenant/herald 1h sword. By all means..if that is such a game breaking issue…yes..swap some of the damage to sword #2 and #3. That may actually be a decent change…as it would possibly accomplish some of what others are asking for…more of a skill cap to distance them from players who just spam 11111 all day in glint. Maybe add a small energy cost increase to sword #2 to make it run us out of energy if we don’t legend swap frequently.

Utility skills as in party-wide damage buffs. Banners/Quickness/Alacrity/Fury and so forth. Any damage related skill that buffs the party is far more important than individual DPS. An extra 10% damage to your class is miniscule compared to party-wide fury or the prec and ferocity provided by Banner of Discipline. Mesmer DPS is atrocious and it’s still the most valued member of a raid because perma-quickness and alacrity is insane.

Kagamiku.9731:

Utility skills as in party-wide damage buffs. Banners/Quickness/Alacrity/Fury and so forth. Any damage related skill that buffs the party is far more important than individual DPS.

This.

Most people seem to just brush aside party wide buffs and completely focus on the class itself, it you fully utilize every classes passive party wide boonsharing abilities rather than focusing on individual DPS people would be more prone to actually running other classes aside from burnzerkers which when fully utilized with party wide shares = optimal DPS.

Banners. +170
Frost Spirit + Sun Spirit +10% damage and Burning
Empower Allies + 150
Rev Boon duration +50%
Warrior Shouts.

The list goes on an on.

Kagamiku.9731:

Because when a classes damage is all relegated to his auto attack it becomes much too easy to bring out the max output of his damage. Take warrior for example, he misses a HB and his damage drops massively. This isn’t the issue with a revenant because all he needs to do is stick close and 11111 and swap stances when necessary.

So the gist of the argument isn’t that they are doing too much damage, but that you feel it is too easy? Okay, I’ve already commented on that…so I’ll just repeat what I said before…spread the damage around between the weapon skills if that is what it takes to make people happy. Like I said in my previous post, that would probably be a good thing to put some distance between good and bad players. Others seem to want that too…so that looks like a winning idea. That still does not support this desire to decrease the total damage of a profession that is not doing top tier damage.

You use mallyx when you have a chrono on your team because impossible odds (shiro stance skill) isn’t needed and you want to have 100% FoS uptime. Mallyx is good for the elite skill because at least it provides a 10%boon to all stats while allowing you to maintain FoS. Impossible Odds can’t be used in conjunction with FoS so even if the Chronomancer doesn’t provide perma-quickness, you’d probably be better off running Mallyx.

I think its been noted multiple times that might generation (FoS) is not really why you bring a herald. You bring a herald for FoN and FoD…boon duration and fury respectively. I mentioned earlier, that the herald is a gap filler in regards to boons. In the absence of a PS warr/berserker…then we can fill in with slightly lesser might generation…but that role is more effectively filled by others.

I’m seriously doubting that Mallyx is a legend to run in raids unless you either really need boon stripping or condi defense. You aren’t going to spend enough time in that legend otherwise for that self 10% elite buff to outweigh the damage you get from the Shiro heal or possible CC from the Shiro elite.

Kagamiku.9731:

Fury, Might and Swiftness are the important ones for raids. Revs can maintain more than just a few might stacks. While in Dragon Stance they can maintain upwards of 17might on their own, and with high enough boon duration they won’t lose many when swapping to shiro/mallyx. They can maintain even more in conjunction with Unrelenting Assault. Warriors can technically provide full might stacks on their own, but not on moving targets. It’s not that Revanents have a unique party buff, it’s that they can passively apply many of the most important boons to the whole party. FoS is icing on the cake and it’s one of the best skills in the game.

Yes, heralds can maintain that much might if needed due to the absence of a PS warr/berserker. Which requires running FoS (facet of strength)..in addition to FoN (facet of nature)…when we are highly likely to be running FoD (at the same time). We are back to the legendary 6/6/6/6/6 type build this sub conversation started with….more upkeep than the herald has available. Also completely redundant since the might part should be handled by others instead…and it usually is handled by others instead. I’m just assuming that every time you say FoS you are actually referencing the utility by those initials…and not actually talking about FoN (facet of nature)? When you say it is one of the “best skills in the game”, that seriously makes me think you are just calling it the wrong name.

Kagamiku.9731:

Utility skills as in party-wide damage buffs. Banners/Quickness/Alacrity/Fury and so forth. Any damage related skill that buffs the party is far more important than individual DPS. An extra 10% damage to your class is miniscule compared to party-wide fury or the prec and ferocity provided by Banner of Discipline. Mesmer DPS is atrocious and it’s still the most valued member of a raid because perma-quickness and alacrity is insane.

Okay, here’s the logic here. You can bring all the utility you could possibly imagine…in a full nomad party. Is damage still unimportant? The answer is of course its important to bring damage. Here’s another bit of logic….Raids are a very tiny percentage of the total game. Where’s the logic in nerfing damage for a profession…that is already acknowledged as not being in the top damage rankings…because it offers useful buffs…or because you feel its easy to play…specifically because of maybe 2% of the content in the entire game? I’ll stop now with these questions. How would a damage nerf to heralds improve the game? How would a damage nerf to heralds improve profession balance? Are heralds over represented in raids? Without a valid and truthful answer to these questions…how can this sub conversation continue? Regardless of how much you may dislike the auto attack of heralds. Regardless of whether you just dislike that heralds have the intentionally designed role of being a buff gap filler as needed. This sub conversation about justifying a damage nerf to heralds is without merit if those above questions do not have valid and truthful responses with justification. A damage nerf does not just affect group play btw.

So, I wanted my condi warrior because we really needed condis and people didn’t wanna play engi, right? Right, so I got commanded to roll vipers with nightmare/diamond+bursting/earth with sini trinkets, right? Right, but I’ve been thinkin’, instead of nightmare runes on burnzurkur, isn’t it better to go zerk runes for the additional condi damage and just go malice sigil+viper amulet… Or something like that.
I don’t know if the meta is changing at an alarming rate, I’m too annoyed and bored to bother searching deep into nerdholes.
I’ll go through another surging-runes-on-mes fiasco (kittenmit Tobi I’ll never forgive you and myself) only if absolutely necessary… Especially if there’s a nerf on the way.

ODB.6891:

I think its been noted multiple times that might generation (FoS) is not really why you bring a herald. You bring a herald for FoN and FoD…boon duration and fury respectively. I mentioned earlier, that the herald is a gap filler in regards to boons. In the absence of a PS warr/berserker…then we can fill in with slightly lesser might generation…but that role is more effectively filled by others.

Saying FoS is just a mistake on my part, but my whole paragraph was about FoN being essential when a mesmer is in your party and it’s why revs run mallyx over shiro with a mesmer present. so I think you should have been able to pick up on that. It may be a gap filler for a warrior (even though they help the warrior maintain max stacks on moving targets) but they’re hands down the best at providing fury and swiftness. It comes at no sacrifice and it’s passive. Your party need only be in range and they’re going to receive its full benefit.

I’m seriously doubting that Mallyx is a legend to run in raids unless you either really need boon stripping or condi defense. You aren’t going to spend enough time in that legend otherwise for that self 10% elite buff to outweigh the damage you get from the Shiro heal or possible CC from the Shiro elite.

Shiro without impossible odds is crap, and the 10% to all stats and the torment that mallyx elite provides easily trumps shiros heal skill. Mallyx elite also has no cooldown, while shiros heal is on a 30 second cd. Revenants have amazing CC capability on their staff 5 so they have no reason for shiros elite skill.

Yes, heralds can maintain that much might if needed due to the absence of a PS warr/berserker. Which requires running FoS (facet of strength)..in addition to FoN (facet of nature)…when we are highly likely to be running FoD (at the same time). We are back to the legendary 6/6/6/6/6 type build this sub conversation started with….

I still fail to see how this is a 6/6/6/6/6 build. While in dragon stance a rev can run fury, swiftness, might and FoN all at the same time…yes, his energy will eventually deplete but because the boons last far longer than it takes for the facets to re-apply them, they will still be on your party after you swap to mallyx and back to DS again so you can reapply the durations to all the boons. Before needing to swap to mallyx due to lack of energy on DS, I already have 20seconds of Fury/Might/Swiftness, and this is without any additional boon duration besides FoN. FoN can be applied 100% of the time as well…So where is this 6/6/6/6/6 build coming from?

Okay, here’s the logic here. You can bring all the utility you could possibly imagine…in a full nomad party. Is damage still unimportant? The answer is of course its important to bring damage. Here’s another bit of logic….Raids are a very tiny percentage of the total game. Where’s the logic in nerfing damage for a profession…that is already acknowledged as not being in the top damage rankings…because it offers useful buffs…or because you feel its easy to play…specifically because of maybe 2% of the content in the entire game? I’ll stop now with these questions. How would a damage nerf to heralds improve the game? How would a damage nerf to heralds improve profession balance? Are heralds over represented in raids? Without a valid and truthful answer to these questions…how can this sub conversation continue? Regardless of how much you may dislike the auto attack of heralds. Regardless of whether you just dislike that heralds have the intentionally designed role of being a buff gap filler as needed. This sub conversation about justifying a damage nerf to heralds is without merit if those above questions do not have valid and truthful responses with justification. A damage nerf does not just affect group play btw.

Why use such a ridiculous comparison, though? A raid team should both be using the best armor and the highest damage utility skills. Mesmer is an example of a class with mediocre damage yet incredibly good utility, and their utility is far more important than their damage. We’re not talking about classes that deal 0 damage here, we’re talking about damage nerfs that while noticeable to individual DPS, means little compared to group boons. The same is true for any group content. The only time individual DPS wins out on group utility is when…you’re soloing content. Which is rarely because even in open world you’ll have players helping you kill stuff. At least in the new maps. Soloing dungeons is probably the only time individual DPS outshines group utility DPS.