Guild Wars 2

Astralporing.1957:

ButterPeanut.9746:

Vinceman.4572:

Dunno what you what to blame me for. I never said Anet should stop developing content for PvP/WvW/RP/other PvE stuff. And nothing stops ppl of playing these things because there is an existence of raids.

Didn’t you know that when your favorite restaurant adds one “side” item to the menu that you don’t like, for some reason your favorite meal tastes worse? (just a joke guys :P)

Try adding pork chops to a restaurant with kosher food and see how well it will end.

The kosher food would taste exactly the same and only the people who want the pork chop would order it… sounds familiar

Do I/we have to? Is there a rule saying there have to be some most important factors?

You don,t have to, but you also don’t have to criticize my listing, yet you did. Usually, I’m expecting ppl making such criticism to share a view they consider better than the one they criticized. Might just be me…

Nobody needs to play raids. It’s a game. Raids are challenging group content for the target audience. It’s not content for the audience that doesn’t want to have a challenge in the game.

Raids are fine. They are not the reason I’m unhappy nor do I want to play raids.

You said it yourself, it’s a game and I need my games to be enjoyable or there is no point to it. I’m trying to fight for my toys here. In short, I’m unhappy that my toy is locked in your house is my problem. Why did they decide to lock one such toy exclusively in THAT house is beyond me but they did and will realistically not produce any more before GW3 if I’m to believe the litany of how terrible the process was.

Legendaries were always an end-game content that many, including myself, would keep doing to have something to do and look forward to. I was looking forward to this one since a very LONG time. The change of HOT was meant to render precursor accessible via other means than luck and the TP, not lock them behind niche content beyond even the acquisition of the precursor.

I’m kittened at Anet, and I feel I have a right to be. I’m not asking you to agree or care. I’m merely explaining.

Then they just don’t play it and go on with their stuff. Is it so hard to relinquish legendary armor which isn’t giving better stats? I mean, if you don’t want to invest time and effort, just don’t do it. You can play any other content without having disadvantages. Hell, it’s even faster to exchange armor pieces than changing stats on the leggy armor plus putting in the right runes again.

It is hard if it is one of the last motivation to play the game you have left… Of course, I’m already close to letting go anyway. I like that leisure. At least I use to. But the changes make it harder and harder to motivate me…

Dunno what you what to blame me for. I never said Anet should stop developing content for PvP/WvW/RP/other PvE stuff. And nothing stops ppl of playing these things because there is an existence of raids.

Why such a poor and blatant straw man? I never blamed you about anything. I merely explained to you why your reply about the game not being one for me since I was a loner was quite out of place considering you are in fact the strong minority here that enjoy structured group content.

Yeah, I really don’t see your problem with raids here since every game mode has its right to exist.

Is it me or you just can’t read properly? I repeat again, I have no problem with raids.

You want a leggy armor for WvW? I can understand it but then stop coming into the raid forum blaming the raiding community etc. Get your WvW buddies together and make threads in the WvW forums & reddit. Make some big noise there, it would help much more!

Well, to be fair and to answer you in the same kind you do, you aren’t forced to read my posts (you already do not bother that much from what I can read) and can certainly abstain from replying you know…

Beside, the major reason this thread reappear without end is quite simple: too many keep invalidating legitimate frustrations.

So instead of seeing the topic slowly die, they feed it and renew the frustrations.

I can see why, and what is at stake that prevent the topic to go to rest, I’m sure you know too, but I’ll leave it at that for now.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

It is hard if it is one of the last motivation to play the game you have left… Of course, I’m already close to letting go anyway. I like that leisure. At least I use to. But the changes make it harder and harder to motivate me…

Well, I should start crying then for having to grind mats and stuff for all those legendaries. I hate it too and would rather appreciate if I could have the weapons almost instantly. But do you know what? This is a stupid idea for most of the people in the game, especially for those who already completed all weapons and went through that horrible grind. Same goes for me with SAB tribulation mode, PvP & WvW achievements and some other crappy PvE collections with grinding stuff.

So, here is my attitude: I respect it. I respect that I won’t have every legendary weapon in this game. On the one hand it’s a bit sad but on the other hand, I can live with it. Why? Because it’s a fricking game. I move on and I don’t care about it any longer. This is something I’m claiming for you and some others. You won’t behave in this way, it’s okay but I’m very pleased that at least Anet wouldn’t cater your way either due to belonging to a very very small minority.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Why such a poor and blatant straw man? I never blamed you about anything. I merely explained to you why your reply about the game not being one for me since I was a loner was quite out of place considering you are in fact the strong minority here that enjoy structured group content.

I haven’t brought in the straw man. You talked about PvP and such stuff not me. And I wasn’t also pointing out that all those people cannot have fun in their modes and stuff. PvP stays the same, just without one armor. WvW stays the same, just without one armor. PvE without raids stays the same, just without one armor. It’s just one fricking armor you won’t get if you don’t raid. If that is too hard to live with you have to leave the game, go on. That’s very much ok for me. Disproportionately high illogical but nevermind.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Is it me or you just can’t read properly? I repeat again, I have no problem with raids.

Yeah, now it’s clear. You want the armor. You probably won’t get it. That’s ok. Then you don’t get it.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Well, to be fair and to answer you in the same kind you do, you aren’t forced to read my posts (you already do not bother that much from what I can read) and can certainly abstain from replying you know…

Beside, the major reason this thread reappear without end is quite simple: too many keep invalidating legitimate frustrations.
So instead of seeing the topic slowly die, they feed it and renew the frustrations.
I can see why, and what is at stake that prevent the topic to go to rest, I’m sure you know too, but I’ll leave it at that for now.

As long as there only are some dispersed players + the same people reappearing in those threads I feel amused because the former group is most likely never coming back to their own threads due to finding a way into raiding while the others still hammering around with many bad arguments leading to 0 success for their goal because the company won’t listen to them.
#feelsgoodman

Vinceman.4572:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

It is hard if it is one of the last motivation to play the game you have left… Of course, I’m already close to letting go anyway. I like that leisure. At least I use to. But the changes make it harder and harder to motivate me…

Well, I should start crying then for having to grind mats and stuff for all those legendaries. I hate it too and would rather appreciate if I could have the weapons almost instantly. But do you know what? This is a stupid idea for most of the people in the game, especially for those who already completed all weapons and went through that horrible grind. Same goes for me with SAB tribulation mode, PvP & WvW achievements and some other crappy PvE collections with grinding stuff.

So, here is my attitude: I respect it. I respect that I won’t have every legendary weapon in this game. On the one hand it’s a bit sad but on the other hand, I can live with it. Why? Because it’s a fricking game. I move on and I don’t care about it any longer. This is something I’m claiming for you and some others. You won’t behave in this way, it’s okay but I’m very pleased that at least Anet wouldn’t cater your way either due to belonging to a very very small minority.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Why such a poor and blatant straw man? I never blamed you about anything. I merely explained to you why your reply about the game not being one for me since I was a loner was quite out of place considering you are in fact the strong minority here that enjoy structured group content.

I haven’t brought in the straw man. You talked about PvP and such stuff not me. And I wasn’t also pointing out that all those people cannot have fun in their modes and stuff. PvP stays the same, just without one armor. WvW stays the same, just without one armor. PvE without raids stays the same, just without one armor. It’s just one fricking armor you won’t get if you don’t raid. If that is too hard to live with you have to leave the game, go on. That’s very much ok for me. Disproportionately high illogical but nevermind.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Is it me or you just can’t read properly? I repeat again, I have no problem with raids.

Yeah, now it’s clear. You want the armor. You probably won’t get it. That’s ok. Then you don’t get it.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Well, to be fair and to answer you in the same kind you do, you aren’t forced to read my posts (you already do not bother that much from what I can read) and can certainly abstain from replying you know…

Beside, the major reason this thread reappear without end is quite simple: too many keep invalidating legitimate frustrations.
So instead of seeing the topic slowly die, they feed it and renew the frustrations.
I can see why, and what is at stake that prevent the topic to go to rest, I’m sure you know too, but I’ll leave it at that for now.

As long as there only are some dispersed players + the same people reappearing in those threads I feel amused because the former group is most likely never coming back to their own threads due to finding a way into raiding while the others still hammering around with many bad arguments leading to 0 success for their goal because the company won’t listen to them.
#feelsgoodman

After reading this reply of yours I can say you pretty much made my point about you not being able to read.

Was nice reading your monologues tho…

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

After reading this reply of yours I can say you pretty much made my point about you not being able to read.

Was nice reading your monologues tho…

Yo, have a nice evening as well. Hope you get over your frustration about legendary armor & raids.

Astralporing.1957:

NikeEU.7690:

In other games it doesn’t work well. People who do the ultra easy mode stick with it and don’t progress.

See how anecdotal evidence works?

That’s not anecdotal evidence, that’s a factually untrue claim. There are people that advance that way. You can at best argue about how many of those exist.

You don’t have the data for that claim. The overwhelming majority do the story mode and are done. Only a marginally tiny section use it to break into raiding and become real raiders. How small is this number exactly? Neither of us know, but you can be sure Anet doesn’t feel its worth the resources to create additional modes to cater to this tiny group of players.

Oddly enough the entire concept of an infantile mode of each fight is nonsense. If people wanted to use easy mode as a stepping stone you’d only need one boss for that. And really with cairn and escort we have tgat so the stepping stone theory is pretty much bunk.

I’m a alot more sympathetic to people who want a story mode of each raid for the sake of experience but that is NOT the same group of players who want easy mode for training purposes. And obviously a minimal rewards story mode for each raid is significantly more work for the devs and it’s not entirely clear how how many people that group of players actually is.

maddoctor.2738:

I don’t think anyone deep down can say that there is no problem with the “LI system” and say that this whole “you need x amount of LI to even start Raids” is a good thing.

I can say the LI system is fine.

Players using that data inappropriately is not. But that’s true of any metric system.

NikeEU.7690:

You don’t have the data for that claim. The overwhelming majority do the story mode and are done. Only a marginally tiny section use it to break into raiding and become real raiders. How small is this number exactly? Neither of us know, but you can be sure Anet doesn’t feel its worth the resources to create additional modes to cater to this tiny group of players.

Oddly enough the entire concept of an infantile mode of each fight is nonsense. If people wanted to use easy mode as a stepping stone you’d only need one boss for that. And really with cairn and escort we have tgat so the stepping stone theory is pretty much bunk.

I’m a alot more sympathetic to people who want a story mode of each raid for the sake of experience but that is NOT the same group of players who want easy mode for training purposes. And obviously a minimal rewards story mode for each raid is significantly more work for the devs and it’s not entirely clear how how many people that group of players actually is.

For WoW conversation rate is ~1/10, data was available during previous expansion. So 10% of LFR new players are not stopping and moving to normal, 10% of normal raiders are becoming fresh blood for HC and so on.

Rednik.3809:

NikeEU.7690:

You don’t have the data for that claim. The overwhelming majority do the story mode and are done. Only a marginally tiny section use it to break into raiding and become real raiders. How small is this number exactly? Neither of us know, but you can be sure Anet doesn’t feel its worth the resources to create additional modes to cater to this tiny group of players.

Oddly enough the entire concept of an infantile mode of each fight is nonsense. If people wanted to use easy mode as a stepping stone you’d only need one boss for that. And really with cairn and escort we have tgat so the stepping stone theory is pretty much bunk.

I’m a alot more sympathetic to people who want a story mode of each raid for the sake of experience but that is NOT the same group of players who want easy mode for training purposes. And obviously a minimal rewards story mode for each raid is significantly more work for the devs and it’s not entirely clear how how many people that group of players actually is.

For WoW conversation rate is ~1/10, data was available during previous expansion. So 10% of LFR new players are not stopping and moving to normal, 10% of normal raiders are becoming fresh blood for HC and so on.

Is this supposed to prove something? If so, you should be providing links, otherwise it’s just your word.

Rednik.3809:

NikeEU.7690:

You don’t have the data for that claim. The overwhelming majority do the story mode and are done. Only a marginally tiny section use it to break into raiding and become real raiders. How small is this number exactly? Neither of us know, but you can be sure Anet doesn’t feel its worth the resources to create additional modes to cater to this tiny group of players.

Oddly enough the entire concept of an infantile mode of each fight is nonsense. If people wanted to use easy mode as a stepping stone you’d only need one boss for that. And really with cairn and escort we have tgat so the stepping stone theory is pretty much bunk.

I’m a alot more sympathetic to people who want a story mode of each raid for the sake of experience but that is NOT the same group of players who want easy mode for training purposes. And obviously a minimal rewards story mode for each raid is significantly more work for the devs and it’s not entirely clear how how many people that group of players actually is.

For WoW conversation rate is ~1/10, data was available during previous expansion. So 10% of LFR new players are not stopping and moving to normal, 10% of normal raiders are becoming fresh blood for HC and so on.

Raids are side content in GW2. 10% conversion rate is incredible bad and actually an argument against tiered difficulties. You slow down every content to present an one time adventure for most and 10% play the real raids. There is no reason to replay the easy mode as you won’t have rewards towards the armor.

Rednik.3809:

NikeEU.7690:

You don’t have the data for that claim. The overwhelming majority do the story mode and are done. Only a marginally tiny section use it to break into raiding and become real raiders. How small is this number exactly? Neither of us know, but you can be sure Anet doesn’t feel its worth the resources to create additional modes to cater to this tiny group of players.

Oddly enough the entire concept of an infantile mode of each fight is nonsense. If people wanted to use easy mode as a stepping stone you’d only need one boss for that. And really with cairn and escort we have tgat so the stepping stone theory is pretty much bunk.

I’m a alot more sympathetic to people who want a story mode of each raid for the sake of experience but that is NOT the same group of players who want easy mode for training purposes. And obviously a minimal rewards story mode for each raid is significantly more work for the devs and it’s not entirely clear how how many people that group of players actually is.

For WoW conversation rate is ~1/10, data was available during previous expansion. So 10% of LFR new players are not stopping and moving to normal, 10% of normal raiders are becoming fresh blood for HC and so on.

Which is a terrible conversion rate for the amount of work which would have to be put in, the segregation which would happen, the confusion between different modes.

I’m not even getting into the good stuff here, WoW has broken up their raiding tiers even further and normal raid mode is about where easy would have been years ago. So essentially they dumbed down the experience to a level where you can afk through the first 2 modes. Here is the current breakdown of WoW raiding modes compared to vanilla raids:

LFR - full on kitten mode (and I’m using this as a:“delay or hold back in terms of progress or development”). This mode is there for gearing up your twink characters and see what little story the new raids have.

Normal mode- let’s call this easy mode because that’s exactly what it is. The fact that only 10% of the LFR crowd move on to this essentially slightly above free loot mode is an argument AGAINST splitting up difficulties.

Heroic Mode - about on par with vanilla raids and requirements. Might vary here and there depending on the encounter but this one is where maybe groups might have to do a couple of tries to clear it. I’d put GW2 raids about in this difficulty for the tougher bosses (Sloth, Matthias, Xera, Deimos) and below this difficulty closer to normal for the easy fights (Trio, Escort, Mursaat Overseer, Samarog).

Mythic Mode - above vanilla raid difficulty, for the hardcore raider crowd. Way above what GW2 raids require.

So everyone coming here saying that this system works in other MMOs, stop kidding yourself. It’s all about the free loot and minimum effort to get maximum reward.

Miellyn.6847:

Raids are side content in GW2. 10% conversion rate is incredible bad and actually an argument against tiered difficulties. You slow down every content to present an one time adventure for most and 10% play the real raids. There is no reason to replay the easy mode as you won’t have rewards towards the armor.

10% conversion rate is actually means that adding a lower difficulty increasing total raid auditory almost tenfold AND creating natural flow of new raiders to higher difficulties, making raids self-sustaining and solving almost all accessibility issues.

Cyninja.2954:

Which is a terrible conversion rate for the amount of work which would have to be put in, the segregation which would happen, the confusion between different modes.

Whether 10% conversion rate is good or bad depends solely on the base pool of players that conversion would work on. 10% conversion rate from 100 000 is way, way better than 100% conversion rate from a group of 100. In case of WoW, for example, that first pool is huge, possibly greater than the number of players GW2 has now. For them it’s definitely worth the effort. Can’t say if the same would happen in GW2, of course. But it definitely is a possibility.

And the segregation is here already, multiple modes, instead of making it greater, actually help to make it less dividing.

Guys lfr was never made with getting ppl into raiding in mind. It was actually made as a storymode for ppl that didnt have the time or the ability to do the real thing. Every competend raider you will find in wow will tell you that lfr is a waste of time and it doesnt provide you woth nothing against the real thing.

zealex.9410:

Guys lfr was never made with getting ppl into raiding in mind. It was actually made as a storymode for ppl that didnt have the time or the ability to do the real thing. Every competend raider you will find in wow will tell you that lfr is a waste of time and it doesnt provide you woth nothing against the real thing.

Except it was. LFR was introduced as answer to astonishingly high drop in raider numbers in Cata after Firelands raid. And it worked absolutely amazing, in next addon game suffered a heavy subscribers drop due to casual player hate towards panda setting and mind-numbing grind, but raider numbers actually increased.

Astralporing.1957:

Cyninja.2954:

Which is a terrible conversion rate for the amount of work which would have to be put in, the segregation which would happen, the confusion between different modes.

Whether 10% conversion rate is good or bad depends solely on the base pool of players that conversion would work on. 10% conversion rate from 100 000 is way, way better than 100% conversion rate from a group of 100. In case of WoW, for example, that first pool is huge, possibly greater than the number of players GW2 has now. For them it’s definitely worth the effort. Can’t say if the same would happen in GW2, of course. But it definitely is a possibility.

And the segregation is here already, multiple modes, instead of making it greater, actually help to make it less dividing.

Sorry I got to call bs.

Yes the base pool is intersting to look at for total numbers only if the pool sizes are comparable, it doesn’t solve the issue of 10% being terrible. GW2 does not have that size of a basepool of players, let’s not kid ourselves here. Going out on a hunch that something might help when the base numbers are bad is not a convincing argument. A lot of things might do good stuff and most of them have no terrible numbers to go along.

No, we do not have this kind of segregation yet. What many non raiders love to forget (or aren’t aware of) raid guilds and groups are constantly looking for replacements and additions to their roster to offset loss in players. Offering different types of game modes for essentially the same setting will create more confusion, more demand for reward equality between those modes and more organistional requirements when building groups.

What the game needs is a better LFG system and in general overwork of how groups are formed. If it was up to me I’d have a team work on making an entire seperate tab just for group management and creation for the different game modes.

Rednik.3809:

Miellyn.6847:

Raids are side content in GW2. 10% conversion rate is incredible bad and actually an argument against tiered difficulties. You slow down every content to present an one time adventure for most and 10% play the real raids. There is no reason to replay the easy mode as you won’t have rewards towards the armor.

10% conversion rate is actually means that adding a lower difficulty increasing total raid auditory almost tenfold AND creating natural flow of new raiders to higher difficulties, making raids self-sustaining and solving almost all accessibility issues.

See and this is were your opinion and mine differ. I don’t value or see LFR or normal WoW raids as raids. I could take a cardboard box, put some plastic wheels on it and call it a car, only because it has a similar shape as a car doesn’t make it a car though.

LFR is a roller coaster for people to have fun with. It has less in common with raids than some open world encounters. You’ll also find a very vocal raiding community in WoW that openly disagress with the LFR system because it has effectively dumbed down the mode.

So from a pure number perspective, no I disagree that the pool of players was increased tenfold.

Raids are selfsustaining and growing at the moment. I’m not sure what more of a natural flow you want. Fact is, for anyone who wants to raid, try raiding or even just kill 1 boss for his raid mastery unlocks there is a ton of ways to approach this issue. Unless bloacked by language barriers, severe disabilities or a absolutely unsocial character (and even then usually it’s enough to just keep quiet) all it takes is some searching in the evenings (in a LFG system that could use some rework) or god forbid joining a guild.

Astralporing.1957:

And the segregation is here already, multiple modes, instead of making it greater, actually help to make it less dividing.

Actually it does the opposite as proved by literally every game you hold on your pedestal.

Multi-modual divides the player base into multiple smaller groups that very seldom interact thus creating a nightmare for balancing content and classes as well as hindering product development because they have to design around the basis that things cannot be complex.

Rednik.3809:

zealex.9410:

Guys lfr was never made with getting ppl into raiding in mind. It was actually made as a storymode for ppl that didnt have the time or the ability to do the real thing. Every competend raider you will find in wow will tell you that lfr is a waste of time and it doesnt provide you woth nothing against the real thing.

Except it was. LFR was introduced as answer to astonishingly high drop in raider numbers in Cata after Firelands raid. And it worked absolutely amazing, in next addon game suffered a heavy subscribers drop due to casual player hate towards panda setting and mind-numbing grind, but raider numbers actually increased.

Someone who does lfr even if he doesnt move up from there is still considered a raider. So ofc what ever happened to the community would not effect the increase of “raiders”. And from what i understand from alot of ppl i talked to and vids i have watched it was because ppl simply couldnt do raids in their current difficulty and then they made lfr so they have content to do.

Cyninja.2954:

Yes the base pool is intersting to look at for total numbers only if the pool sizes are comparable, it doesn’t solve the issue of 10% being terrible.

It doesn’t, because 10% is not terrible at all. For example, 10% conversion from LFR to normal raid mode in WoW means that at least 20% of normal mode players came from lfr (if i remember correctly, last time i checked LFR population was estimated at somewhere around 20% of total players, while normal mode was in single digits). I remember the numbers for heroic mode less, but it should be somewhere similar as well. That’s huge regardless of how big the total population would be.

Also, what counts (and what you should compare it with) is how it compares with other sources of influx of new players into those higher modes. It’s entirely possible, that the mode progression is the biggest source of them – after all, after a time, the influx of new players into the raid community usually slows down to a crawl. I’m pretty sure that we’re close to that point in gw2 already.

Cyninja.2954:

What many non raiders love to forget (or aren’t aware of) raid guilds and groups are constantly looking for replacements and additions to their roster to offset loss in players.

And most of it is shuffling raiding players around, condensing their numbers in smaller and smaller number of guilds. Most of players that might be brought into raids the current way have already done so.

zealex.9410:

Rednik.3809:

zealex.9410:

Guys lfr was never made with getting ppl into raiding in mind. It was actually made as a storymode for ppl that didnt have the time or the ability to do the real thing. Every competend raider you will find in wow will tell you that lfr is a waste of time and it doesnt provide you woth nothing against the real thing.

Except it was. LFR was introduced as answer to astonishingly high drop in raider numbers in Cata after Firelands raid. And it worked absolutely amazing, in next addon game suffered a heavy subscribers drop due to casual player hate towards panda setting and mind-numbing grind, but raider numbers actually increased.

Someone who does lfr even if he doesnt move up from there is still considered a raider. So ofc what ever happened to the community would not effect the increase of “raiders”. And from what i understand from alot of ppl i talked to and vids i have watched it was because ppl simply couldnt do raids in their current difficulty and then they made lfr so they have content to do.

Which would make sense in that game, it’s primary end game content, is raiding. Not so in GW2.

Astralporing.1957:

Cyninja.2954:

What many non raiders love to forget (or aren’t aware of) raid guilds and groups are constantly looking for replacements and additions to their roster to offset loss in players.

And most of it is shuffling raiding players around, condensing their numbers in smaller and smaller number of guilds. Most of players that might be brought into raids the current way have already done so.

I disagree. The amount of practice runs, 50 LI requirement and new raid group lfgs daily point to a different scenario. Is there a shift of raiders between guilds? Sure. Yet still a big part of players which guilds aim for are new players because quite frankly:

- it’s not that hard to get people to be able to clear content and taking someone fresh makes them often more devoted to the raid/guild

- you really rather want someone to start in your raid instead of someone who keeps jumping ship

- one main reason for people droping out of raids besides real life commitments is burnout or breaks from the game. These people won’t be available to the raid pool. Yes, the game is in a state of pre expansion hiatus where people are less active and which forces raid guilds to actively keep their rosters stocked (all guilds not just raid guilds actually)

- the fact that many people completely pug the entire raid content means people drop out of their raids if required and simply pug the content after their raid group disbanded again removing them from the available raid pool. If you are currently at 200+ LI one can expect for a pug group to clear most bosses within the first 1-3 tries.

You have no way of knowing that the pool of players wanting to play raids is exhausted especially with current raid popularoty which is still going strong. This is just a convenient “maybe scenario” wich would support your claim that LFR is needed without any basis in data, metrics or ingame proof. Even if this were the case, I’d simply argue that IF the playerbase willing to raid were exhausted, LFR would not necessarily cause them to reconsider. The boundry to raid content is not that high skill cap wise as mentioned earlier.

Cyninja.2954:

The boundry to raid content is not that high skill cap wise as mentioned earlier.

Yes. It’s not skill requirements that limit access. It’s the extremely painful learning process, that is unfun for most players. That’s one of the things easy mode is supposed to help with.

Fatalyz.7168:

Which would make sense in that game, it’s primary end game content, is raiding. Not so in GW2.

So, are you going to say that anet will drop their focus on raids and stop making new wings instead of fractals and dungeons?

Rednik.3809:

Fatalyz.7168:

Which would make sense in that game, it’s primary end game content, is raiding. Not so in GW2.

So, are you going to say that anet will drop their focus on raids and stop making new wings instead of fractals and dungeons?

Why? Did their raid developement stop any non raid content coming out? Did we miss a Living World Episode I was not aware of? Has the developement of expansion 2 been halted?

Dungeons are dead content and will never get more developement until this stance is changed. This has nothing to do with raids so stop shifting the blame.

Fractals have received multiple updates. It’s harder to design extra content for an already existing instance (and if you payed attention you’d know that all fractals are essentially on the same map. A poor design decision I think but one that is hard to reverse) instead of creating a new one (as is the case for raids).

Cyninja.2954:

Why? Did their raid developement stop any non raid content coming out? Did we miss a Living World Episode I was not aware of? Has the developement of expansion 2 been halted?

Dungeons are dead content and will never get more developement until this stance is changed. This has nothing to do with raids so stop shifting the blame.

Fractals have received multiple updates. It’s harder to design extra content for an already existing instance (and if you payed attention you’d know that all fractals are essentially on the same map. A poor design decision I think but one that is hard to reverse) instead of creating a new one (as is the case for raids).

Honestly, I don’t know their internal kitchen, their development priorities, how many devs really work on different content parts and so on. I just see, as I have said earlier, 2 fractals, 0 dungeons and 4 raid wings in HoT. So, if you are playing PvE and want to do something more that grind gold in zerg, you essentially will face lack of the new repeatable content everywhere, except raids. So, if raids are going to be “side content”, then why they are getting so much attention? And if they are getting so much attention, why someone trying to call them “side content”?

Rednik.3809:

Cyninja.2954:

Why? Did their raid developement stop any non raid content coming out? Did we miss a Living World Episode I was not aware of? Has the developement of expansion 2 been halted?

Dungeons are dead content and will never get more developement until this stance is changed. This has nothing to do with raids so stop shifting the blame.

Fractals have received multiple updates. It’s harder to design extra content for an already existing instance (and if you payed attention you’d know that all fractals are essentially on the same map. A poor design decision I think but one that is hard to reverse) instead of creating a new one (as is the case for raids).

Honestly, I don’t know their internal kitchen, their development priorities, how many devs really work on different content parts and so on. I just see, as I have said earlier, 2 fractals, 0 dungeons and 4 raid wings in HoT. So, if you are playing PvE and want to do something more that grind gold in zerg, you essentially will face lack of the new repeatable content everywhere, except raids. So, if raids are going to be “side content”, then why they are getting so much attention? And if they are getting so much attention, why someone trying to call them “side content”?

Let’s recheck those stats:

- 2 fractals and fractal redesigns please. Those are not magically ingame. Essentially we are looking at multiple reworks of fractals and as I had mentioned, adding fractal content will be way more time consuming than creating a raid wing with some fancy small maps and essentially 3-4 boss fights. Raid maps are empty.

- 4 new maps with 1 more likely coming on tuesday

- 0 dungeons because content that does not get worked on does not appear ingame. Moot point as mentioned since they are not developing for dungeon content any more. This has nothing to do with raids so stop bringing it up as an argument. It’s not.

- 4 Living World episodes with a 5th coming on tuesday

- rebalance of classes every quarter year

- that’s not counting spvp or wvw changes and developement (which are minor compared to total pve developement currently)

I just don’t see how raids are this big of a factor. Raids are the most visible yes, that’s the idea. They are by far not the most time consuming development wise.

If people need easy mode to learn the raids, then they are not really interested in the challenge this content is meant to offer, they just want to cheese their way to what they persist as AMAZING rewards. Well let me burst your bubble on this one. Raid rewards are by far not that amazing. Sure you get some liquid gold, a chest of ascended here and there and some minis if you are lucky or if very lucky the ghostly infusion from w1. Nothing really that you cant get in t4 fractals for instance. The infusion you can even buy for pretty low gold amount from the TP. Well besides the legendary armor, which is about to realease, which is the end goal of many raiders besides the offered challenge.

Anyhow rewards aside, if ppl were really and I mean really interested in challenging themselves into what is the current most difficult content ingame they would simply stop whine, put the effort and time needed to find ppl with the same mindset and same motivation, form a group, gear up, do their homework from the pletora of videos, guides etc on raid bosses and go into the raid to practice, learn, fail and eventually succeed like all of us when we first were starting raiding. Because if you were willing to put the time and energy into learning the actual bosses like you have time to come up with those 1774174 ideas of ez raid modes and whatnot by now you’d probably have gotten your first raid boss, wing clear or even full clear.

Because it is very, very possible and very, very accessible, as long as you are willing to put the effort into it. But nah, its much more easier to do nothing, but post a few posts, crying out loud how hard it is to do raid in this game. Whatever float your boat guys, but dont expect Anet to change how raids are done in this game anytime soon, if at all. They already made a clear statement on this, not sure if it was missed or smth, or just purposefully ignored.

Rednik.3809:

Fatalyz.7168:

Which would make sense in that game, it’s primary end game content, is raiding. Not so in GW2.

So, are you going to say that anet will drop their focus on raids and stop making new wings instead of fractals and dungeons?

Nope, they won’t. Their primary focus is on LS. Fractals get frequent updates. Raids? Since the first wing (which was to be part of HoT), has released one Raid, 9 months after the first.

Do you have to wait 9 months to get new content in other parts of the game? Would you be willing to wait that?

Also, there was nothing in my post to even suggest that they would stop developing raids.

Cyninja.2954:

Rednik.3809:

Cyninja.2954:

Why? Did their raid developement stop any non raid content coming out? Did we miss a Living World Episode I was not aware of? Has the developement of expansion 2 been halted?

Dungeons are dead content and will never get more developement until this stance is changed. This has nothing to do with raids so stop shifting the blame.

Fractals have received multiple updates. It’s harder to design extra content for an already existing instance (and if you payed attention you’d know that all fractals are essentially on the same map. A poor design decision I think but one that is hard to reverse) instead of creating a new one (as is the case for raids).

Honestly, I don’t know their internal kitchen, their development priorities, how many devs really work on different content parts and so on. I just see, as I have said earlier, 2 fractals, 0 dungeons and 4 raid wings in HoT. So, if you are playing PvE and want to do something more that grind gold in zerg, you essentially will face lack of the new repeatable content everywhere, except raids. So, if raids are going to be “side content”, then why they are getting so much attention? And if they are getting so much attention, why someone trying to call them “side content”?

Let’s recheck those stats:

- 2 fractals and fractal redesigns please. Those are not magically ingame. Essentially we are looking at multiple reworks of fractals and as I had mentioned, adding fractal content will be way more time consuming than creating a raid wing with some fancy small maps and essentially 3-4 boss fights. Raid maps are empty.

- 4 new maps with 1 more likely coming on tuesday

- 0 dungeons because content that does not get worked on does not appear ingame. Moot point as mentioned since they are not developing for dungeon content any more. This has nothing to do with raids so stop bringing it up as an argument. It’s not.

- 4 Living World episodes with a 5th coming on tuesday

- rebalance of classes every quarter year

- that’s not counting spvp or wvw changes and developement (which are minor compared to total pve developement currently)

I just don’t see how raids are this big of a factor. Raids are the most visible yes, that’s the idea. They are by far not the most time consuming development wise.

Let’s not also forget, that after Colin left, MO told everyone that they had let the content pipeline get empty, my guess would be because they seemed to devote all resources to the expac, while neglecting everything else.

Since MO has taken back over, there has been consistent updates (once they were ready, they had to refill the pipeline), and it also appears that there won’t be a break in that content this time around.

I’ve had this idea for awhile concerning dungeons/raids in general. What if it was possible to cut up the normal regular dungeon/raid into sections and parts that can then be explained and practiced without rewards or consequences. The system would let you keep trying tell you get it. It should also allow the leader to do just certain parts that the group is struggling with.

From a design standpoint, raiding should at least match the overall design philosophy of the rest of the game. And clearly, that philosophy is one of making it as accessible as possible. GW2 works so well because you can be either a Korean mad farmer with 5000+ playtime hours in bank, or a family mom/dad playing 6 hours/week doing your dailies and dressing up your char to be the most fabulous plant in the garden, and in both cases you can more or less “see” the entirety of the game. There is no “whole portion” so to speak that you can’t really go to (e.g there are many jumping puzzles to pick from if you like them but can’t do SAB tribulation, there is extreme mode if you think Mordremoth should be a real boss and there’s T1-T3 fractals if you can’t be kittened to do the hardest fractals).

They are already trying to do the same for raids actually, however the current way is not pleasing anyone, since they made W4 have a easy-to-hard progression of bosses and now half of people are angry at the first two and the other half are angry at the last two. The green mote idea is definitely good and goes along with what happens in the rest of the game. I’d even argue that, by merely removing the progression of legendary armor collections in any way whatsoever through this tutorial mote, you’re already damping the rewards enough to justify people wanting to progress to normal raiding, while still not feeling left out.

Also, tweaking numbers like boss health and damage while not changing instakill mechanics would make plenty of sense given that people would still use the current meta. You could train Sabetha’s cannons and flame wall without worrying about if your healer is good enough to heal you, train the poison rotation at sloth without being zerged by slublings, Xera training runs would actually be a thing, etc. I see no harm done to either side by doing this.

Finally, for the “developers will not develop new raid content if they have to revisit what was already there” argument. Consider that, the earlier they revisit this, the less things there will be to revisit. If the next raids already come built in with this tweaking in mind, they could both increment more juicy lore knowing that more people can go through the fights and save the actual long time they would take to revisit the current number of raids plus every raid released after that, if they don’t revisit it now. Just take a look at Fractals, it changed basically 100% from what it used to be for the sake of structure and it’s now 100% better than before. Do not think raids will never have to be reviewed and its structure modified to fit population declines (it’s already suffering from population decline: you can log into the game any time of the day for a quick daily fractals but for raids you better be online at peak time or get ready for a long sitting), they ought to do it now for it just increases the amount of work that will have to be done if they take longer to do so.

maxwelgm.4315:

From a design standpoint, raiding should at least match the overall design philosophy of the rest of the game. And clearly, that philosophy is one of making it as accessible as possible.

Why should it? It was billed as Challenging Group Content, with Fractals as the stepping stones, so why should the accessibility increased any more than it already is?

maxwelgm.4315:

Do not think raids will never have to be reviewed and its structure modified to fit population declines (it’s already suffering from population decline: you can log into the game any time of the day for a quick daily fractals but for raids you better be online at peak time or get ready for a long sitting), they ought to do it now for it just increases the amount of work that will have to be done if they take longer to do so.

Do you have any proof of declining raid population, or are you just stating your opinion based on anecdotal evidence?

I do not believe that raids were developed with the mindset of log in, join a pug group, kill a boss. Yes, this works for experienced players, but not the general population. Which is fine for niche content.

Also consider this, in the lead up to HoT, we were told that there would be Challenging Group Content added to the game. Raids is the Challenging Group Content in this game. Fractals are the variable challenge level content.

Once you have reached T4 fractals and clear those without issue, you are that much closer to raiding in this game. It becomes a clear progression, Fractals from level 1 all the way to level 100. Once you have mastered Fractals, and you want more challenge, you turn to raids.

Rain.7543:

If people need easy mode to learn the raids, then they are not really interested in the challenge this content is meant to offer, they just want to cheese their way to what they persist as AMAZING rewards. Well let me burst your bubble on this one. Raid rewards are by far not that amazing. Sure you get some liquid gold, a chest of ascended here and there and some minis if you are lucky or if very lucky the ghostly infusion from w1. Nothing really that you cant get in t4 fractals for instance. The infusion you can even buy for pretty low gold amount from the TP. Well besides the legendary armor, which is about to realease, which is the end goal of many raiders besides the offered challenge.

Anyhow rewards aside, if ppl were really and I mean really interested in challenging themselves into what is the current most difficult content ingame they would simply stop whine, put the effort and time needed to find ppl with the same mindset and same motivation, form a group, gear up, do their homework from the pletora of videos, guides etc on raid bosses and go into the raid to practice, learn, fail and eventually succeed like all of us when we first were starting raiding. Because if you were willing to put the time and energy into learning the actual bosses like you have time to come up with those 1774174 ideas of ez raid modes and whatnot by now you’d probably have gotten your first raid boss, wing clear or even full clear.

Because it is very, very possible and very, very accessible, as long as you are willing to put the effort into it. But nah, its much more easier to do nothing, but post a few posts, crying out loud how hard it is to do raid in this game. Whatever float your boat guys, but dont expect Anet to change how raids are done in this game anytime soon, if at all. They already made a clear statement on this, not sure if it was missed or smth, or just purposefully ignored.

I always take offense at post like this one. Not because it is false that you need to want something and invest time and energy to make it happen. It is true.

The offense I take doesn’t come from what was said, but what was not. Truth is, willingness and efforts won’t cut it alone. Just like making paper balls to throw them in a garbage can won’t solely be a matter of owning your aim with time and energy. If the lid is on the trashcan, good luck ignoring the variable “TrashcanIsOpen”. If it isn’t, no amount of dedication will make the paper balls able to enter that can. In short, there are other variables in the equations that need to be included to make sense of what can be observed rather than just lazily conclude on laziness for everyone not making it just because it’s convenient and flatters your ego as an added bonus.

I’m not saying there are no players who would enjoy every reward sent to them by mail. Sadly, there are more than I expected. However, you do not have to resort to that line of excuse to explain why it works for you and it doesn’t for plenty others. Plenty others you have very little information about might I add.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, people should stop assuming that what was true and has worked for them will work for others, and that if it doesn’t it’s because they don’t want to. You have plenty of room for rational explanation before reaching laziness. You are an anecdote, and as such have no inferential power so stop behaving like you do. Just be happy you enjoy that content and that you have a positive feedback loop you are in a position to enjoy in that game spot. It’s great, just enjoy.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Rain.7543:

If people need easy mode to learn the raids, then they are not really interested in the challenge this content is meant to offer, they just want to cheese their way to what they persist as AMAZING rewards. Well let me burst your bubble on this one. Raid rewards are by far not that amazing. Sure you get some liquid gold, a chest of ascended here and there and some minis if you are lucky or if very lucky the ghostly infusion from w1. Nothing really that you cant get in t4 fractals for instance. The infusion you can even buy for pretty low gold amount from the TP. Well besides the legendary armor, which is about to realease, which is the end goal of many raiders besides the offered challenge.

Anyhow rewards aside, if ppl were really and I mean really interested in challenging themselves into what is the current most difficult content ingame they would simply stop whine, put the effort and time needed to find ppl with the same mindset and same motivation, form a group, gear up, do their homework from the pletora of videos, guides etc on raid bosses and go into the raid to practice, learn, fail and eventually succeed like all of us when we first were starting raiding. Because if you were willing to put the time and energy into learning the actual bosses like you have time to come up with those 1774174 ideas of ez raid modes and whatnot by now you’d probably have gotten your first raid boss, wing clear or even full clear.

Because it is very, very possible and very, very accessible, as long as you are willing to put the effort into it. But nah, its much more easier to do nothing, but post a few posts, crying out loud how hard it is to do raid in this game. Whatever float your boat guys, but dont expect Anet to change how raids are done in this game anytime soon, if at all. They already made a clear statement on this, not sure if it was missed or smth, or just purposefully ignored.

I always take offense at post like this one. Not because it is false that you need to want something and invest time and energy to make it happen. It is true.

The offense I take doesn’t come from what was said, but what was not. Truth is, willingness and efforts won’t cut it alone. Just like making paper balls to throw them in a garbage can won’t solely be a matter of owning your aim with time and energy. If the lid is on the trashcan, good luck ignoring the variable “TrashcanIsOpen”. If it isn’t, no amount of dedication will make the paper balls able to enter that can. In short, there are other variables in the equations that need to be included to make sense of what can be observed rather than just lazily conclude on laziness for everyone not making it just because it’s convenient and flatters your ego as an added bonus.

I’m not saying there are no players who would enjoy every reward sent to them by mail. Sadly, there are more than I expected. However, you do not have to resort to that line of excuse to explain why it works for you and it doesn’t for plenty others. Plenty others you have very little information about might I add.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, people should stop assuming that what was true and has worked for them will work for others, and that if it doesn’t it’s because they don’t want to. You have plenty of room for rational explanation before reaching laziness. You are an anecdote, and as such have no inferential power so stop behaving like you do. Just be happy you enjoy that content and that you have a positive feedback loop you are in a position to enjoy in that game spot. It’s great, just enjoy.

As per your trashcan example, is there something physically in the game that bars them from spending time and effort, as a trash can lid being down while throwing paper balls? last I checked, there wasn’t.

As per your trashcan example, is there something physically in the game that bars them from spending time and effort, as a trash can lid being down while throwing paper balls? last I checked, there wasn’t.

Something doesn’t have to be “physical” to constitue a solid enough barrier to participation. The willingness to play and invest yourself into the content is subjected to other variables. Sometimes, to the point of having no will to play left after they are accounted for.

For example, knowing that raids are competitive structured group activities that more often than not take considerable amount of preparations before you can even try them, it is not hard to see what could be a major obstacle for several players if some conditions are not met.

Among the things that could impact on this, for example…

Enjoying that kind of content. In life, we all have to go through 168 hours every week. Among these hours, some of us will have 40 hours of badly paid work they hate and feel less than humans doing while others will brag about working 80 hours for which they are well paid, enjoy, and feel accomplished doing. Who do you think need to work more and will have a harder time accepting to work more hours this week? This is obvious. The quality of the experience is what is going to be the deal breaker here, not the amount of hours spent. In fact, the 80 hours working person probably feel energized after his week, were as the 40 hours person is likely exhausted.

This is similar to raiders reminding others of how much time they invested to justify their success on all level alluding it was all purely a matter of will on their part. Try it with content you hate and tell me us how your “will” and degree of exhaustion fluctuates. You’ll soon see how “will” is a dependant variable, not an absolute.

Being able to be part of one or more guilds that regularly schedule raids. I think we can agree that starting to raid when you are among friends and doing the same trying to PUG isn’t the same thing at all for the vast majority of players. The experience you will have when you play raids will impact on your willingness to repeat the experience and PUGGING is riskier in that regard. Many here make joining a guild that will answer their raiding needs while respecting their real life imperatives stupidly easy. Believe me, it is not so for all and it is not for lack of trying in many cases. I myself more than likely went through more guilds than many here who judge players not being able to join them as being nonsensical. Honestly, these people haven’t got a clue and probably don’t care at all to begin with.

Being able to overcome your introversion. For example, some players are plagued with more or less anxiety of performance (some people will have a very hard barrier right there BTW). Raids are competitive and perfermance area. Asking these people to lead and start their own raid is often plain unrealistic. They can eventually change positively with time, but it’s already a big fight on it’s own that a player who do not have to consider this won’t understand at all the huge majority of the time (it won’t even make sense to them). You being super nice and open won’t change a kitten thing for them because they do not know you.

For each player who jump into raid and realize they had no reasons to fear them, you have 9 that see their anxiety validated, which make the future process of participation even harder than it already was before. BTW, having DPS meters all over the place and used the ways I’ve seen too often really do not help these ppl… not the huge majority of them at any rate.

There are other variables that are in turn all subjected to others when the time comes to make it more or less difficult to participate but we are limited to 5k words and I think I’ve made my case. However, one thing I’m positive about is reducing lack of participation to “laziness” is intellectually very lazy.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

As per your trashcan example, is there something physically in the game that bars them from spending time and effort, as a trash can lid being down while throwing paper balls? last I checked, there wasn’t.

Snip

Among the things that could impact on this, for example…

Enjoying that kind of content. In life, we all have to go through 168 hours every week. Among these hours, some of us will have 40 hours of badly paid work they hate and feel less than humans doing while others will brag about working 80 hours for which they are well paid, enjoy, and feel accomplished doing. Who do you think need to work more and will have a harder time accepting to work more hours this week? This is obvious. The quality of the experience is what is going to be the deal breaker here, not the amount of hours spent. In fact, the 80 hours working person probably feel energized after his week, were as the 40 hours person is likely exhausted.

Snipped due to length

All of those barriers are not an issue of the Gamemode, or should be a factor in deciding the decision of this niche content gamemode. Before releasing Raids Anet clearly stated who the Target audience was, they have also stated that they exceeded their Target audience goal/expectations, and they have stuck to their Target audience philosophy.

Just because individuals have personal life that happens shouldn’t be a deciding factor, otherwise the game can’t develop properly or on time because everyone’s lives are different with different situations, to try to make the game appeal to everyone’s Lifestyle is a pipe dream at best, at worst it will more than likely ruin the game to even attempt it. Anet has done well with providing a little bit of everything for everyone. Almost all demographic in game have content geared toward them, the majority of that content being geared toward casuals and people with constricted play time, i.e. Open world PvE, Fractals, sPvP is essentially all Solo Queue Hot join, WvW, Dungeons, Personals story, Living Story. Etc….

but for those people to complain that an extremely tiny slice of content should be commandeered just for them and to go against the gamemode scope and vision is by far one of the more ridiculous and selfish things to do, especially for the people that want it just for the exclusive items and same rewards. Some only want the story which is accessible already, but not to their preference so they would want added developer time to this small niche content that will more than likely slow down Raid production just so they can get a one off Story so they can feel “special” aka the hero, that they will probably never revisit since there would nothing else to be gained from the story mode after their proposed story mode.

Again the Game has no actual barriers to participate in Raids, every “barrier” you and everyone has claimed are all on the individual themselves and not the system for Raids, there are multitudes of options for players to start getting into Raids, and most of the ground work has been laid, it is up to the Individual to put in the effort/time to make it happen if they are so interested in playing the Raid content.

All of those barriers are not an issue of the Gamemode, or should be a factor in deciding the decision of this niche content gamemode. Before releasing Raids Anet clearly stated who the Target audience was, they have also stated that they exceeded their Target audience goal/expectations, and they have stuck to their Target audience philosophy.

Just because individuals have personal life that happens shouldn’t be a deciding factor, otherwise the game can’t develop properly or on time because everyone’s lives are different with different situations, to try to make the game appeal to everyone’s Lifestyle is a pipe dream at best, at worst it will more than likely ruin the game to even attempt it. Anet has done well with providing a little bit of everything for everyone. Almost all demographic in game have content geared toward them, the majority of that content being geared toward casuals and people with constricted play time, i.e. Open world PvE, Fractals, sPvP is essentially all Solo Queue Hot join, WvW, Dungeons, Personals story, Living Story. Etc….

but for those people to complain that an extremely tiny slice of content should be commandeered just for them and to go against the gamemode scope and vision is by far one of the more ridiculous and selfish things to do, especially for the people that want it just for the exclusive items and same rewards. Some only want the story which is accessible already, but not to their preference so they would want added developer time to this small niche content that will more than likely slow down Raid production just so they can get a one off Story so they can feel “special” aka the hero, that they will probably never revisit since there would nothing else to be gained from the story mode after their proposed story mode.

Again the Game has no actual barriers to participate in Raids, every “barrier” you and everyone has claimed are all on the individual themselves and not the system for Raids, there are multitudes of options for players to start getting into Raids, and most of the ground work has been laid, it is up to the Individual to put in the effort/time to make it happen if they are so interested in playing the Raid content.

Whoa, whoa whoa, calm down.

You reply something that is beside the point being made. That the barrier is personnal, structural, otherwise or a mix of all is not what matters in the context of my reply.

You are supposed to understand that reducing participation to “willingness to play” is oversimplistic, and that comparing bananas to aircarft carrier is disingenuous. All you said above changes nothing about that.

Also, saying that the game has no barrier is more or less true since the kind of content Anet will go for (and decide to hide a unique reward behind) will impact on which personal barrier will matter or not. It’s all in interraction.

The context of this thread is all about what make the raid more or less accessible for the population. By itself, that it is 10 men rather than 5 as the game was initially sold and build for is a pretty big decision that had MAJOR impact on accessibility.

BTW, I’m not asking for this to change at this point, I’m only explaining what has an impact on accessibility. For me, it is obvious the major point of contention in “challenging structured group content” is not CHALLENGE but STRUCTURED GROUP.

With that being said, and for the billionth time, raids are fine as they are to me. People for whom they were designed enjoy it, so good job. The only major irritant I ever had with raids is Anet choice of making the Raid reward be the only suit of legendary armor in game. It was a poor choice to put it there if they only planned to ever put one out before GW3 comes out.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

The only major irritant I ever had with raids is Anet choice of making the Raid reward be the only suit of legendary armor in game. It was a poor choice to put it there if they only planned to ever put one out before GW3 comes out.

This I can agree with. I think was a bad idea to put the first ever Legendary armor behind Raids. I think it would have been much better received if it had been added with a collection similar to the gen 2 weapons, for the first set. I do think tho, that at this point, it isn’t likely to change from a Raid armor.

Fortunately, at least from the post announcing the Legendary armor, they said that it would be the fist set of Legendary armor. To me that implies that they want to make another set, at least at the time of the blog post they did, don’t know if they still do after taking 2 years on the first set.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Being able to overcome your introversion. For example, some players are plagued with more or less anxiety of performance (some people will have a very hard barrier right there BTW). Raids are competitive and perfermance area. Asking these people to lead and start their own raid is often plain unrealistic. They can eventually change positively with time, but it’s already a big fight on it’s own that a player who do not have to consider this won’t understand at all the huge majority of the time (it won’t even make sense to them). You being super nice and open won’t change a kitten thing for them because they do not know you.

For each player who jump into raid and realize they had no reasons to fear them, you have 9 that see their anxiety validated, which make the future process of participation even harder than it already was before. BTW, having DPS meters all over the place and used the ways I’ve seen too often really do not help these ppl… not the huge majority of them at any rate.

I am going to have to stop you right there. What you are doing by making ‘introversion’ a complete excuse to not do something is way more damaging than anything you mention. You have not described ‘introversion’, what you have described is an anxiety disorder which is an entirely different thing.

I have quite a severe anxiety disorder and everything you say here is exactly the opposite of what people like me need to be told. We are not fragile little things that need the world catered to us. I do everything here that you said I am not capable of doing and have done for over a year now. This is because I do not take the attitude of your post, I don’t allow my condition to prevent me from doing things I want to do. And above all I do not use my condition as an excuse as to why I have a harder time than everyone else. It is not up to everyone else to change to accommodate me, I can be of a healthier mind AND raid by developing ways to interact with others and set up groups without having enormous panic attacks. Every professional will tell you that avoidance behaviour is the absolute worst thing for any anxiety and what your post is not only condoning but encourages is avoidance behaviour.

If you are going to take something like this to use for your argument you do not actually care about people with anxiety problems. People being super nice and open DOES change things, people being understanding that we might not talk on voip all the time (or at all). Understanding that sometimes we play worse than usual because our hands are trembling since we have not been able to handle our own reactions to stimuli well that day. You cannot expect general population of people to change things just because I or others might have a freak out, our panic attacks are our own responsibility not anyone elses.

Amane couldn’t have put it any better with concern to the introversion argument. They know it, I know friends who have some of these social anxieties and the last thing they want is to be pitied and catered for online.

I am going to have to stop you right there. What you are doing by making ‘introversion’ a complete excuse to not do something is way more damaging than anything you mention. You have not described ‘introversion’, what you have described is an anxiety disorder which is an entirely different thing.

I have quite a severe anxiety disorder and everything you say here is exactly the opposite of what people like me need to be told. We are not fragile little things that need the world catered to us. I do everything here that you said I am not capable of doing and have done for over a year now. This is because I do not take the attitude of your post, I don’t allow my condition to prevent me from doing things I want to do. And above all I do not use my condition as an excuse as to why I have a harder time than everyone else. It is not up to everyone else to change to accommodate me, I can be of a healthier mind AND raid by developing ways to interact with others and set up groups without having enormous panic attacks. Every professional will tell you that avoidance behaviour is the absolute worst thing for any anxiety and what your post is not only condoning but encourages is avoidance behaviour.

If you are going to take something like this to use for your argument you do not actually care about people with anxiety problems. People being super nice and open DOES change things, people being understanding that we might not talk on voip all the time (or at all). Understanding that sometimes we play worse than usual because our hands are trembling since we have not been able to handle our own reactions to stimuli well that day. You cannot expect general population of people to change things just because I or others might have a freak out, our panic attacks are our own responsibility not anyone elses.

I know that I gave an anxiety disorder and what introversion is. In fact I know both personally myself too btw. I didn’t knew how to name the big label I wanted to use for all the social interaction problems introverted gamers often end-up having and then use one type of anxiety as an one example of a barrier to participation. My bad for having been too ambitious here with my example.

That being said, I do think you misunderstood the point I made since at no moment I’m saying people should avoid fighting their anxiety or that they are not responsible for their own actions. Nor did I asked for raid to be changed btw. This was all you reacting to my example on an emotional level.

In my example, anxiety was not used as an excuse, but as an explanation as to how it can impact accessibility in a group context where performances are expected. And whether we like it or not, it does have an impact that can be pretty important. Of course people being super nice is going to be helpful when you dare to go toward them. Imperative word being DARE. If you experiment too many bad encounters, it might get harder for many to lower their guard again is my point. And if that happens, no matter how nice people are won’t matter anymore because you won’t go toward them and figure out how nice they are. The lid on the trash can become pretty close to use my initial metaphor.

I’ll also tell you what a professional will also consider regarding fighting anxiety as well as many other disorder. Avoiding is indeed to be avoided as much as possible, but you have to remember that avoidance isn’t always bad and fighting back always good. The problem is, you/we used that coping strategy every time everywhere no matter if it is appropriate. Yes, we want to maximize fighting back anxiety, but not stupidly. Stupidly meaning fighting in condition where the risk of ending-up validating the source of your fear is unreasonable. If that is the case, avoiding is smarter (it is a valid coping strategy that saved us before, hence why we retained it). The idea is to make progress with smart risks that bolster confidence. Avoiding, as bad as it can be, is not nearly as damageable as validating your inner fears. You also have to remember that what is going to work well with you might not yield the same result with others… but I’ll stop here about that. I think you get the idea.

@Sirbeaumerdier

Those aren’t accessibility issues, the Raids are still fully accessible to people even if they have those disorders. An accessibility issue is a system issue, nothing with the system is stopping any player from Accessing or Performing in Raids. What you are listing of are personal reasons some players won’t attempt Raids.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

@Sirbeaumerdier

Those aren’t accessibility issues, the Raids are still fully accessible to people even if they have those disorders. An accessibility issue is a system issue, nothing with the system is stopping any player from Accessing or Performing in Raids. What you are listing of are personal reasons some players won’t attempt Raids.

I disagree. That it is personal or not amount to the same for the player that has to deal with it.

Sykper.6583:

Amane couldn’t have put it any better with concern to the introversion argument. They know it, I know friends who have some of these social anxieties and the last thing they want is to be pitied and catered for online.

I’m struggling to see where I suggested pity anywhere. Just saying.

Before we go too much down this rabbit hole, one of the biggest pieces of aiding or helping with social anxieties is stopping the encouragement of avoidance. Games like GW2 offer an escape from reality but they do provide the bare minimum interaction with other players, of which every conversation even ones in tells can help those with severe disorders like Avoidant Personality eventually overcome their shyness.

They aren’t directly going into raids here, Raids are but one of many end-games. These players grow and develop with others at the beginning, maybe even join their communications at some point to say hi; Take the smallest of steps to become a better person. When they get around to raiding, they are likely already taking measures to NOT be a burden as you so want to point out through using introversion as another facet that impacts raid accessibility. On the contrary, because they’ve likely been playing this game long enough to at least get an understanding of how difficult raids CAN be, they are players who are likely to try harder to get it done to avoid what relationships they have built up now, because they have struggled so far to get them. Or because the content is optional in its own right they can ignore it and play the rest of the game they so enjoy with others.

Avoidance is a last resort, it shouldn’t be an option to help these friends that play with us in game. Please don’t go throwing Introversion so callously into this raid debate.

Sykper.6583:

Before we go too much down this rabbit hole, one of the biggest pieces of aiding or helping with social anxieties is stopping the encouragement of avoidance. Games like GW2 offer an escape from reality but they do provide the bare minimum interaction with other players, of which every conversation even ones in tells can help those with severe disorders like Avoidant Personality eventually overcome their shyness.

They aren’t directly going into raids here, Raids are but one of many end-games. These players grow and develop with others at the beginning, maybe even join their communications at some point to say hi; Take the smallest of steps to become a better person. When they get around to raiding, they are likely already taking measures to NOT be a burden as you so want to point out through using introversion as another facet that impacts raid accessibility. On the contrary, because they’ve likely been playing this game long enough to at least get an understanding of how difficult raids CAN be, they are players who are likely to try harder to get it done to avoid what relationships they have built up now, because they have struggled so far to get them. Or because the content is optional in its own right they can ignore it and play the rest of the game they so enjoy with others.

Avoidance is a last resort, it shouldn’t be an option to help these friends that play with us in game. Please don’t go throwing Introversion so callously into this raid debate.

Did you read what I said? Ironically, you reply to me avoiding the crux of my argument while putting words into my mouth.

I’m not encouraging anybody to avoid raids. Like ever. Nor did I even imply anybody being a burden when using introversion as an example. It is merely used to illustrate why challenging group content may be less easily accessible to these people. They have an extra obstacle to overcome that others do not. I never said they should avoid that obstacle. I even took the time to say exactly the opposite, yet you reply this…

At this point IDK what to say. I read your last sentence and I’m utterly baffled. Where the kitten did that come from? Like seriously? Either my english is that bad (it is not my first language after all I guess), or you cross-read what I say and put it out of context, making me waste my time.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

The only major irritant I ever had with raids is Anet choice of making the Raid reward be the only suit of legendary armor in game. It was a poor choice to put it there if they only planned to ever put one out before GW3 comes out.

This is I believe the major reason why people argue back and forth about raids. Which in itsself is already a problem because non raiders will take just about every argument they can as to why raids need to change without having the game mode at heart but rather its rewards.

The biggest complaint non-raiders should admit to is:“I dislike raids because currently they are keeping me from shiny xyz.”

How do you find out if you are prt of this crowd? Ask youself, if legendary armor were available through other means than raids, would you still want to raid? If no then you should stay away from any type of argument about game mode balance or simply shorten your argument to: “I want the loot.”

Cyninja.2954:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

The only major irritant I ever had with raids is Anet choice of making the Raid reward be the only suit of legendary armor in game. It was a poor choice to put it there if they only planned to ever put one out before GW3 comes out.

This is I believe the major reason why people argue back and forth about raids. Which in itsself is already a problem because non raiders will take just about every argument they can as to why raids need to change without having the game mode at heart but rather its rewards.

The biggest complaint non-raiders should admit to is:“I dislike raids because currently they are keeping me from shiny xyz.”

How do you find out if you are prt of this crowd? Ask youself, if legendary armor were available through other means than raids, would you still want to raid? If no then you should stay away from any type of argument about game mode balance or simply shorten your argument to: “I want the loot.”

To be fair, I did say I wasn’t asking raid to change and fully admit the reward being the only reason I’m raiding. My participation in this particular thread merely seek to argue and explain why accessibility is an issue for many.

That being said, I disagree when you say people should stay away from raid arguments if the reward is their sole motivation. I would agree with you if raids were not the unique way to get that type of reward. But it’s not the case and this create a problem that affect more than just “true” raiders…

Cyninja.2954:

Ask youself, if legendary armor were available through other means than raids, would you still want to raid?

I’ve been told time and time again that legendary armor cannot be made available through other means, because this would significantly decrease raid population. In fact, some of the people that argue against me about raids and their accessibility said so about themselves. Does that mean they also have no right to speak up about raids and their balance (unlike Blaeys, who specifically is not interested in rewards at all)?