Guild Wars 2

Obtena.7952:

laokoko.7403:

Obtena.7952:

ipan.4356:

All it means is that they didn’t design dungeons correctly to begin with.

If the content was fun and engaging, people would be doing it.

Yeah, no one is doing dungeons ><

the casual people is still doing dungeons.

most of the people are farming/grinding.

So people ARE doing dungeons? They are and they aren’t? I love the flippy floppy arguments people use to make their points.

I kind of put my last statement late.

I’m not Obetna, I’m not sure what his statement have to do anything with mine.

Of course people are doing dungeons. You remove the rewards from it and no one will be doing it.

I spend a good few month doing nothing but mining. That dont’ mean I enjoy mining. I enjoy getting shiny gear, and gems to buy more character slots so I can do things I actually enjoy like leveling a new character.

because really if you run the same dungeon a few hundreds times and still enjoy it…

Well, It’s a bit rhetorical.

Lots of these threads don’t really get why this game is successful. It’s not because GW2 serves many different kinds of players. It serves primarily one, but very large group.

Honestly, I would love to see a hard mode on something; dungeons primarily but based on the work it would take and the ROI it would generate, I’m thinking more realistically it’s not going to happen. Frankly the bone thrown to people after harder content is high level fractals. That should be the angle people use to push for more difficult content.

I think this post does have a point.

Forget about gear trademill. And let’s focus on rewards, which is gold per hour in this game.

Many people could run the harder dungeons in this game, but very few people is willing to do it, because you get less gold per hour (unless you are in a super premade group).

I’m willing to run say aetherblade dungeon a few times “for fun”. But if I would have to grind gold, I obviously wont’ choose that dungeon, because you get much less gold per hour.

As a primer example, Liadri, and specially the “light up the darkness” achievement, could be classified as challenging content. Unfortunately, the game never encouraged players to replay it. Some people, myself included, did it several time for the shake of fun, but in terms of reward, it was nothing but a waste of time.
The gauntlet, however, could still be farmed; it just had nothing to do with Liadri. The first year farm was on Deadeye Dunwell (and Subject 7 during for the first days) and, after the insane gold influx it created, for the second year it was revamped not only to one of the most annoying RNG examples we have had in the whole game but also moved to Halmi Hammerfell, the first and easiest fight of the whole piece of content.
The natural difficulty progession and the tools were there, but the reward system was just terrible.

We can also look at the Shadow of the Dragon. It’s far from Liadri, but still a nice fight for many people. I would play it over any regular world boss anyday … the reward, however, is just nonexistant.
Looking at tools already ingame and even in the instance itself, like the LS achievement system (which tracks achievements during every LS instance) and the challenge mote … why not a challenge mote that ports us in front of the Pale Tree, ready for the final fight (so we can skip that 5 minute cutscene), and activates several achievement-like conditionals (don’t get downed, don’t get hit by this, don’t get hit by that, complete the fight in less than X time, …) for increased reward.
Then, we could have a daily Shadow of the Dragon attempt for some kind of varying reward that doesn’t feel like we have wasted our time and should have gone to spam 1 somewhere else. It could have worked with foxfire clusters, for example (IMHO, far better gameplay wise than camping the malchor spot with several characters).

So, it’s not that much the absence of challenging or interesting content, but the terrible reward balancing on them.
Even worse, we have also those evil metrics that decide which content is more or less enjoyable without apparently accounting the big role that rewards play on this. Someday a dungeon is selected for replacement because it’s among the least played ones. Should we have expected something different if it’s way harder and as rewarding (even less convenient, since it lacked token—>ecto conversion and berserker stats) as COF1?
The funny thing about this is that it happened after a dungeon reward rebalancing which was supposed to account for the length and difficulty of each path AND the replacement suffers from pretty much the same issue the original path had.

I don’t know what exactly happens, but there’s a really big problem with rewards across the whole game and something should change sooner than later. The simple fact that completing DEs is usually less rewarding than ignoring most of them and just focusing on wood/ore gathering should be a clear example of this.

Obtena.7952:

Well, It’s a bit rhetorical.

Lots of these threads don’t really get why this game is successful. It’s not because GW2 serves many different kinds of players. It serves primarily one, but very large group.

I think it is more like GW2 give up on competing with other games, and just focus what it is good at. Because quite honestly, all this people that complain about endgame should just go play another game, for example World of Warcraft.

If I can actually play World of Warcraft (I cant’ because of IP block), I would be playing that game instead of complaining here.

Windsagio.1340:

I’m firmly convinced that low player participation in Fractals and Aether Path has left Anet feeling that the vast majority of players have no interest in doing that content.

I’m firmly convinced that if their communication with players wasn’t limited to doing “teehee” on reddit and twitter, they would know WHY people don’t have interest in doing these things.

Haishao.6851:

Windsagio.1340:

I’m firmly convinced that low player participation in Fractals and Aether Path has left Anet feeling that the vast majority of players have no interest in doing that content.

I’m firmly convinced that if their communication with players wasn’t limited to doing “teehee” on reddit and twitter, they would know WHY people don’t have interest in doing these things.

I actually think it is a serious issue here.

People just arn’t willing to do the new content repeatably if it give lesser rewards.

If I’m playing a korean mmorpg, they’ll just keep adding more rewards for new dungeon and new area. For example in the old dungeon, you can only make 1 gold, the new dungeon give 2 gold … etc etc

That is also some sort of treadmill, in which the newer dungeon give more gold…

laokoko.7403:

I think this post does have a point.

Forget about gear trademill. And let’s focus on rewards, which is gold per hour in this game.

Many people could run the harder dungeons in this game, but very few people is willing to do it, because you get less gold per hour (unless you are in a super premade group).

I’m willing to run say aetherblade dungeon a few times “for fun”. But if I would have to grind gold, I obviously wont’ choose that dungeon, because you get much less gold per hour.

Those points are valid for players that don’t care about what content they do and are just after the rewards. The more applicable point is two fold:

1. If you care about endgame content and want challenge, you’re in for the adventure and less apt to QQ about rewards because simply completing is rewarding in itself.
2. If you are doing content because it’s the most rewarding, you will flip to whatever content gives the most reward at the time and less apt to QQ about content.

Those two positions are at the ends of a spectrum. Apparently, the OP is concerned that for type 1 people, the difficulty isn’t great enough. The concern isn’t about rewards as much as it is about actual challenging content.

laokoko.7403:

I think it is more like GW2 give up on competing with other games, and just focus what it is good at. Because quite honestly, all this people that complain about endgame should just go play another game, for example World of Warcraft.

If I can actually play World of Warcraft (I cant’ because of IP block), I would be playing that game instead of complaining here.

I completely agree. Anet has taken whatever marketshare of players it can with their approach to the game … and apparently, it’s some level of successful. it really doesn’t make sense for them to screw with that formula at this point. That’s why I don’t think we will see more difficult encounters.

Obtena.7952:

laokoko.7403:

I think this post does have a point.

Forget about gear trademill. And let’s focus on rewards, which is gold per hour in this game.

Many people could run the harder dungeons in this game, but very few people is willing to do it, because you get less gold per hour (unless you are in a super premade group).

I’m willing to run say aetherblade dungeon a few times “for fun”. But if I would have to grind gold, I obviously wont’ choose that dungeon, because you get much less gold per hour.

Those points are valid for players that don’t care about what content they do and are just after the rewards. The more applicable point is two fold:

1. If you care about endgame content and want challenge, you’re in for the adventure and less apt to QQ about rewards because simply completing is rewarding in itself.
2. If you are doing content because it’s the most rewarding, you will flip to whatever content gives the most reward at the time and less apt to QQ about content.

Those two positions are at the ends of a spectrum. Apparently, the OP is concerned that for type 1 people, the difficulty isn’t great enough. The concern isn’t about rewards as much as it is about actual challenging content.

I think you simply put people in category. But forget about the grey area. Most players is probably a blend that care about both (obvious to a various degree).

That’s implied by the fact I recognize it’s a spectrum. Even if there are player that care about both, it’s easy to argue they tend to care more about one than the other. Those discussions are just semantics. Point is that OP is talking about the challenge part of the spectrum more than the reward part of the spectrum.

Obtena.7952:

That’s implied by the fact I recognize it’s a spectrum. Even if there are player that care about both, it’s easy to argue they tend to care more about one than the other.

Right but who wouldn’t want to fun content and get rewards also.

I dont’ want to spend all my time doing boring mining, if there are way to do fun content and also get equal rewards I’ll be doing so.

Obviously it is much more difficult to design it in GW2, with limited gear tier. Other games can just spam more and more gear tier.

fourhim.3584:

There may be a third group, which I am in. I am a casual player and I just want more beautiful places to see, scary monsters to kill, etc. I could care less if I get any “stuff” while doing so. I just want to explore the game and marvel at the beautiful zones they create. This is why we have been so excited (my son and I) with Dry Top. I hope more stuff like that keeps coming. But I’m probably in the minority

I don’t think you’re in as much of a minority as you think you are. You’ve pretty much described most of my guild. We’re looking for stuff to do that isn’t instanced, and isn’t “over=challenging”. Something we can enjoy playing together without having to get mad at one guy because he didn’t do X. Or exclude one profession because they can’t bring Y.

I’m not saying you’re a majority, but I don’t think any one group has a majority. You could be 30% and still be more than many of the other groups who play this game.

You are not alone.

laokoko.7403:

Right but who wouldn’t want to fun content and get rewards also.

I dont’ want to spend all my time doing boring mining, if there are way to do fun content and also get equal rewards I’ll be doing so.

Obviously it is much more difficult to design it in GW2, with limited gear tier. Other games can just spam more and more gear tier.

That depends on what your definition of rewards is. As we have already established, GW2 isn’t the game that tries to appeal to everyone. It appeals to the marketshare it has already captured; so clearly they are doing something correctly. Screwing with that endangers the marketshare it has.

So back to the same point: Is ANet willing to change their formula to appease players that want harder content at the risk of losing the ones that have made this game successful? Even if they diverted some resources to add harder content to that formula to appeal to a wider audience, I would be concerned they wouldn’t be able to have long term support for it. It’s a band aid solution.

Mac.3872:

Vayne.8563:

Illuminati.2431:

Vayne.8563:

Most companies won’t come right out and say, you guys are a minority and we’re not going to cater to you. Why would they? Would you? They’ll do the best they can, but they’ll not usually say it.

But we’ve had comments over the years from devs from different companies, including Anet devs talking about Guild War 1, where they said the bulk of the people never do the challenging content. This isn’t something new, or something I just decided, or something I figured out recently. It’s been talked about in MMO forums for years. The most recent quote that I can find came form a lotro dev. Less than 10% of the game PvPed and did raids, not just at this point, but pretty much all along. 10% isn’t a big number to include both PvP and raids. He was talking about why they’re no longer making the raid instances they used to.

Again, if enough people were playing dungeons in general, Anet would have a dungeon team working full time on dungeons. Can you tell me why you think they wouldn’t?

Because a huge playerbase played SAB, asked them to death about it to rerelease, open old worlds etc. and nothing that even comes close to SAB in mechanics, reward system etc. has come out since what, like 1 year?

That’s why I think they wouldn’t.

A very passionate playerbase certainly but how do you know huge? Where are the stats? Anet knows how many people played it, and they know how many people didn’t. We can only guess at this.

A passionate playerbase isn’t necessarily a large one. In that same lotro dev quote, the dev said that though less than 10% of people ever raided, more than 50% of forum posts were made by raiders.

Kind of makes you think, no?

It really amazes me that former DJ turned community manager (Not Dev) Rick Heaton`s <10% statement gets posted on other forums.

Heres why:

After the ensuing kitten storm, Mr Heaton was sacked retired from his position at Turbine.

LOTROs producer has since posted:

“the 10% thing. Just drop that. I just don’t look at a game that way. I will consider anything if it is good for the game, and good for the players. There are realities like resources and time and money that do come into play. "

I`m sure Mr Heaton regrets his statement that created a nasty divide within the lotro community.

Kind of makes you think, no?

No it doesn’t. You see, if you’re fired from the game, and you’re making a statement that supports what the company did, it’s more likely true not false. Devs, when they work for a company, can only really tow the company line.

As I said before, Devs are never going to come to the forums and say you guys are a vast minority and we won’t support you that much. Never going to happen.

Once you leave a company, it sure can happen. Why would you think what a company isn’t telling you is more valid than what someone who left the company is. Particularly because it doesn’t actually isn’t contradicted by the company’s response.

The company didn’t say it wasn’t true. They just went into reassurance mode and said, we take you all seriously. Well yeah. What do you think a company is going to say.

When I dealt with people who had apples instead of PCs, I always went out of my way to reassure them that we took their concerns very seriously, because they were a minority. I never told them but we take PC users concerns more seriously, even though it was true.

Where in the response does it actually say the 10% figure isn’t true. It doesn’t. It just tells you to forget that number. Because they don’t want those players to know that number.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

So, what exactly do you wish to see? It would probably be helpful if players gave the Devs something more specific than ‘non-gear-treadmill end-game content’.

Raids. Dungeons. Post-80 continents. Unlockable secondary professions post-80 after questing. Unlockable skills post-80 through questing. Or we can just call it an expansion.

Vix.6730:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

So, what exactly do you wish to see? It would probably be helpful if players gave the Devs something more specific than ‘non-gear-treadmill end-game content’.

Raids. Dungeons. Post-80 continents. Unlockable secondary professions post-80 after questing. Unlockable skills post-80 through questing. Or we can just call it an expansion.

Raid I doubt you’ll ever see here. Unless they’re more open world like Triple Threat. Dungeons they’re not currently focusing on right now. Post 80 continents I’m sure will come in time. They wanted the megaserver up first. Skills will come too. There’ll never be secondary professions in this game, because they couldn’t balance it in the first game.

Vix.6730:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

So, what exactly do you wish to see? It would probably be helpful if players gave the Devs something more specific than ‘non-gear-treadmill end-game content’.

Raids. Dungeons. Post-80 continents. Unlockable secondary professions post-80 after questing. Unlockable skills post-80 through questing. Or we can just call it an expansion.

Aka, learnable content and vertical progression, not skillbased content and horizontal progression.

Windsagio.1340:

Vix.6730:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

So, what exactly do you wish to see? It would probably be helpful if players gave the Devs something more specific than ‘non-gear-treadmill end-game content’.

Raids. Dungeons. Post-80 continents. Unlockable secondary professions post-80 after questing. Unlockable skills post-80 through questing. Or we can just call it an expansion.

Aka, learnable content and vertical progression, not skillbased content and horizontal progression.

It’s a funny comment. People usually get better with more experience. Most skill based content do get easier because the player get more skilled.

I like to know what skill based content GW2 current have which isn’t learnable.

laokoko.7403:

Windsagio.1340:

Vix.6730:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

So, what exactly do you wish to see? It would probably be helpful if players gave the Devs something more specific than ‘non-gear-treadmill end-game content’.

Raids. Dungeons. Post-80 continents. Unlockable secondary professions post-80 after questing. Unlockable skills post-80 through questing. Or we can just call it an expansion.

Aka, learnable content and vertical progression, not skillbased content and horizontal progression.

It’s a funny comment. People usually get better with more experience. Most skill based content do get easier because the player get more skilled.

I like to know what skill based content GW2 current have which isn’t learnable.

My thought as well.

A skill is a learned ability. By definition something that is skill based is learned.

laokoko.7403:

Windsagio.1340:

Vix.6730:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

So, what exactly do you wish to see? It would probably be helpful if players gave the Devs something more specific than ‘non-gear-treadmill end-game content’.

Raids. Dungeons. Post-80 continents. Unlockable secondary professions post-80 after questing. Unlockable skills post-80 through questing. Or we can just call it an expansion.

Aka, learnable content and vertical progression, not skillbased content and horizontal progression.

It’s a funny comment. People usually get better with more experience. Most skill based content do get easier because the player get more skilled.

I like to know what skill based content GW2 current have which isn’t learnable.

Pretty sure the poster is referring to stuff like dungeons and raids, where you’re literally memorizing a response to a preprogrammed script. There used to be time keepers in hard raids that would count of the seconds until X happened.

PvP end game isn’t as predictable or easy to learn.

Illuminati.2431:

Hi there,

I’ve been reading alot of the topics posted on the forum and I notice a lot are about players who complain there is no ‘endgame’ content….

…So my point here is just to clear up those 2 types of groups. I disagree with the people that want the WoW gear treadmill stuff, but I strongly think this game needs end-game the way group 2 sees it.

@Illuminati

You hit it right on the head with the first two groups.

You did leave out a third group, the Sandbox Crew. These are the people who want events the require that the player interact with the world as if they’re living in the world. The guys tend to request player housing, guild housing, make / build their own stuff, etc. Think Minecraft & Archeage.

Like you, I’m part of group 2, and I want to see more challenges, dungeons, maps, etc. I really want to see mini campaigns like Nightmare Tower. LS2’s storyline is good, but it’s alot like Personal Story atm. NT (from LS1) was perfect. NT had a self contained story that contributed to the main storyline. It was also an event that could be enjoyed as a solo run, a small group run, and as a zerg run. The monsters would scale up depending on how many people were inside the tower. Plus, there were 9 different chambers that had their own enemies (esp. mini bosses).

Vayne.8563:

laokoko.7403:

Windsagio.1340:

Vix.6730:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

So, what exactly do you wish to see? It would probably be helpful if players gave the Devs something more specific than ‘non-gear-treadmill end-game content’.

Raids. Dungeons. Post-80 continents. Unlockable secondary professions post-80 after questing. Unlockable skills post-80 through questing. Or we can just call it an expansion.

Aka, learnable content and vertical progression, not skillbased content and horizontal progression.

It’s a funny comment. People usually get better with more experience. Most skill based content do get easier because the player get more skilled.

I like to know what skill based content GW2 current have which isn’t learnable.

Pretty sure the poster is referring to stuff like dungeons and raids, where you’re literally memorizing a response to a preprogrammed script. There used to be time keepers in hard raids that would count of the seconds until X happened.

PvP end game isn’t as predictable or easy to learn.

well GW2 have pve too. have dungeon too, or Liadri encounter.

You make it sound like GW2 PvP is so special in someway that is skill based, and all other game isn’t.

maybe you are just ignoring GW2 pve, much like how the developer have been ignoring it. Unless you felt GW2 is very not skill based… or whatever.

laokoko.7403:

Vayne.8563:

laokoko.7403:

Windsagio.1340:

Vix.6730:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

So, what exactly do you wish to see? It would probably be helpful if players gave the Devs something more specific than ‘non-gear-treadmill end-game content’.

Raids. Dungeons. Post-80 continents. Unlockable secondary professions post-80 after questing. Unlockable skills post-80 through questing. Or we can just call it an expansion.

Aka, learnable content and vertical progression, not skillbased content and horizontal progression.

It’s a funny comment. People usually get better with more experience. Most skill based content do get easier because the player get more skilled.

I like to know what skill based content GW2 current have which isn’t learnable.

Pretty sure the poster is referring to stuff like dungeons and raids, where you’re literally memorizing a response to a preprogrammed script. There used to be time keepers in hard raids that would count of the seconds until X happened.

PvP end game isn’t as predictable or easy to learn.

well GW2 have pve too. have dungeon too, or Liadri encounter.

You make it sound like GW2 PvP is so special in someway that is skill based, and all other game isn’t.

maybe you are just ignoring GW2 pve, much like how the developer have been ignoring it. Unless you felt GW2 is very not skill based… or whatever.

Hope you’re not talking to me. I’m a PvE’er not a PvPer. I just find some of the dungeons with the current stacking meta to be far too easy. Not enough risk. Not enough skill involved. Stack here, hit buttons. It trivializes the skill required to do the bosses without stacking (which I often prefer). And yes, sometimes I run non-stacking groups.

The thing is, PvE AI IS far more predictable than PvP, because you never really know what a player might do.

It doesnt matter to me is there gear treadmil or not.What i want is more harder PvE content.Right now there is only TA:A/Arah/FotM/Wurm/Tequatl and that’s it.Is it enough to keep me playing?NO!!!Absolutely no.
The rewards from the two World bosses are a piece of crap right now.The reward and dificulty must always be equal.
About those 3 dungeons they must be revamped.

Also i want more dungeons and World bosses with higher dificulty added.I’m a hard core PvE player and i want more things to do on lvl 80.Right now the only things that make me play are legendary and magic find grinds.

Astralporing.1957:

SkiTz.4590:

Who on earth wastes time doing challenging content that has abysmal rewards?

Theoretically, people claiming to be interested in challenging content should. If they were really interested in the challenge, that is.

Harper.4173:

End-game doesn’t just mean mastering hard content – it means mastering hard content for a reason – that reason being rewards for most players.

If rewards weren’t the reason people wouldn’t complain about the lack of hard content since you can make any content hard by imposing your own restrictions such as going naked, with no traits,etc.

The whole point of end-game is playing hard, improving, and being rewarded for it. Feeling that you’ve earned it.

Then we’re back at it separating community into haves small minority and have-nots majority. If this is the kind of endgame we’re talking about, then no, i’d rather not have any more of it in this game.

I’m sorry to say but we already have that.

Legendary weapons.
Very expensive skins.

We already have this situation in the game.
So you propose that everyone should have easy access to everything? What’s’ the point then?
What do you work towards ? What do you strive for?!

If everyone has everything they want and/or can get everything they want easy what’s the point?

Also the " have-nots majority" of today can be the " have majority of tomorrow" – at launch very few players had exotic gear – but right now people are rolling in it.

Same with ascended – most people don’t have it – but still it’s in the game. So why is it they can do this with gear and not skins?

I’m talking about a purely cosmetic reward so the " have nots" won’t be 1 bit less effective than those who do have the rewards.

You want a fair and square playing field ? You got it.

You want to be the shiniest most hardcore looking player?Work for it.

To the OP thanks for the clarification I thought all “more end-game content” players wanted WoW type end game like a gear treadmill so this helps me understand the end-game argument a bit more. Imo the solution would be in rare skins for those who want to get good rewards for overcoming great obstacles. Skins don’t only have to be armor pieces but weapon pieces also. Heck throw in rare minis and dye to the mix and that would get me motivated!

Ian.1349:

So, the largest issue I see is that the more difficult content is not as rewarding. Why would I run Arah when I can spam Ascalon Catacombs and get more gold per hour? I’m someone who actually does find the Arah paths fun and somewhat challenging, but the motivation isn’t there. FoTM is a big offender also, with RNG gated rewards. This is not a hard concept and shouldn’t even be a debate. Why would anyone do any content that’s more difficult and less rewarding? If they’re like me, once or twice for the fun but if it the reward is less than that of easier content why would I bother? It’s simple, do more, get more. That’s literally how most things work. Put more in, get more out. It would be really cool if a dev could answer this question: Why does more challenging content often times end up less rewarding than challenging content? What is the goal?

Exactly.At this moment none of the dificulty content is rewarding enough.2g for TA:A?Blashemy!Why the dungeon is not rewarded on par with the hardest paths in Arah?
The Wurm and Tequatl loot tables are just……I simply don’t have words.

Harper.4173:

Astralporing.1957:

SkiTz.4590:

Who on earth wastes time doing challenging content that has abysmal rewards?

Theoretically, people claiming to be interested in challenging content should. If they were really interested in the challenge, that is.

Harper.4173:

End-game doesn’t just mean mastering hard content – it means mastering hard content for a reason – that reason being rewards for most players.

If rewards weren’t the reason people wouldn’t complain about the lack of hard content since you can make any content hard by imposing your own restrictions such as going naked, with no traits,etc.

The whole point of end-game is playing hard, improving, and being rewarded for it. Feeling that you’ve earned it.

Then we’re back at it separating community into haves small minority and have-nots majority. If this is the kind of endgame we’re talking about, then no, i’d rather not have any more of it in this game.

I’m sorry to say but we already have that.

Legendary weapons.
Very expensive skins.

We already have this situation in the game.
So you propose that everyone should have easy access to everything? What’s’ the point then?
What do you work towards ? What do you strive for?!

If everyone has everything they want and/or can get everything they want easy what’s the point?

Also the " have-nots majority" of today can be the " have majority of tomorrow" – at launch very few players had exotic gear – but right now people are rolling in it.

Same with ascended – most people don’t have it – but still it’s in the game. So why is it they can do this with gear and not skins?

I’m talking about a purely cosmetic reward so the " have nots" won’t be 1 bit less effective than those who do have the rewards.

You want a fair and square playing field ? You got it.

You want to be the shiniest most hardcore looking player?Work for it.

Actually even relatively casual players can get a legendary…depending of course on the legendary. It would take them longer, but it’s doable.

First of all, anyone “can” get a precursor drop. Anyone “can” play with the mystic forge. And anyone can run the boss champ route or EOTM in order to get badges and karma and money. It’s not difficult just time consuming. Hell you can take out a credit card and buy a legendary, or a precusor, but you don’t need to.

There are ways for people who play more casually to farm. 9 dungeon runs. If you’re not after Arah (and runs are sold anyway for that), then most dungeons are easily doable, even if you have to learn them. They’re just dungeon runs. A helpful guild will get people through those. T6 mats you get from champ bags, dry top, and of course you can buy with gold.

It’s a time sink and a gold sink….not a skill sink.

The only real problem for some people, in my opinion, might be the WvW component of world complete, which I’ve gotten on four characters already.

I’m relatively casual as far as style preference, but not hours played. I haven’t beaten liadri. But I have four legendaries.

Zoso.8279:

To the OP thanks for the clarification I thought all “more end-game content” players wanted WoW type end game like a gear treadmill so this helps me understand the end-game argument a bit more. Imo the solution would be in rare skins for those who want to get good rewards for overcoming great obstacles. Skins don’t only have to be armor pieces but weapon pieces also. Heck throw in rare minis and dye to the mix and that would get me motivated!

Great, this is the reason why I started this thread in the first place, to clear things up ^^

As for other people who post here that say I left out a 3rd, 4th group etc. etc. I know there aren’t only 2 groups. There are more, hell, even more than 4 I guess.
All I wanted to do is clear up the misunderstanding of alot of players that once whey saw people talk about: “we want better/more/challenging/other end-game content”, they weren’t talking about WoW treadmill end-game.
I just put a 2nd group there, which is this case was the group I belong to, to point out the differences. And as you can see in the post I quoted, there where still some people that just thought of us as 1 group. A lot of good discussion died because of that.
So I am not saying there are only 2 groups, all I’m saying is that there is more than just 1 group, and I put my ‘own group’ as a second group for example and better understanding.

Vayne.8563:

laokoko.7403:

Vayne.8563:

laokoko.7403:

Windsagio.1340:

Vix.6730:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

So, what exactly do you wish to see? It would probably be helpful if players gave the Devs something more specific than ‘non-gear-treadmill end-game content’.

Raids. Dungeons. Post-80 continents. Unlockable secondary professions post-80 after questing. Unlockable skills post-80 through questing. Or we can just call it an expansion.

Aka, learnable content and vertical progression, not skillbased content and horizontal progression.

It’s a funny comment. People usually get better with more experience. Most skill based content do get easier because the player get more skilled.

I like to know what skill based content GW2 current have which isn’t learnable.

Pretty sure the poster is referring to stuff like dungeons and raids, where you’re literally memorizing a response to a preprogrammed script. There used to be time keepers in hard raids that would count of the seconds until X happened.

PvP end game isn’t as predictable or easy to learn.

well GW2 have pve too. have dungeon too, or Liadri encounter.

You make it sound like GW2 PvP is so special in someway that is skill based, and all other game isn’t.

maybe you are just ignoring GW2 pve, much like how the developer have been ignoring it. Unless you felt GW2 is very not skill based… or whatever.

Hope you’re not talking to me. I’m a PvE’er not a PvPer. I just find some of the dungeons with the current stacking meta to be far too easy. Not enough risk. Not enough skill involved. Stack here, hit buttons. It trivializes the skill required to do the bosses without stacking (which I often prefer). And yes, sometimes I run non-stacking groups.

The thing is, PvE AI IS far more predictable than PvP, because you never really know what a player might do.

While it’s true PvP is less predictable than PvE we come back to the same problem again, the rewards issue.
What does a person who looses 100 PvP matches get vs someone who wins 50? They both get the same reward, so what is the motivation to win why strive to be at the top if there are no rewards at the top and the idiot running in circles in the base gets to join you there?
They’d have to add in unique rewards for win-streaks , kill ratios and win ratios (all after over 100 Pvp matches played obviously to prevent win 1 unlock everything) for it to be end game.

My vision of “End-game” is that successful completion makes you stand out from the crowd, which is something pretty lacking in the game.

Conski Deshan.2057:

Vayne.8563:

laokoko.7403:

Vayne.8563:

laokoko.7403:

Windsagio.1340:

Vix.6730:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

So, what exactly do you wish to see? It would probably be helpful if players gave the Devs something more specific than ‘non-gear-treadmill end-game content’.

Raids. Dungeons. Post-80 continents. Unlockable secondary professions post-80 after questing. Unlockable skills post-80 through questing. Or we can just call it an expansion.

Aka, learnable content and vertical progression, not skillbased content and horizontal progression.

It’s a funny comment. People usually get better with more experience. Most skill based content do get easier because the player get more skilled.

I like to know what skill based content GW2 current have which isn’t learnable.

Pretty sure the poster is referring to stuff like dungeons and raids, where you’re literally memorizing a response to a preprogrammed script. There used to be time keepers in hard raids that would count of the seconds until X happened.

PvP end game isn’t as predictable or easy to learn.

well GW2 have pve too. have dungeon too, or Liadri encounter.

You make it sound like GW2 PvP is so special in someway that is skill based, and all other game isn’t.

maybe you are just ignoring GW2 pve, much like how the developer have been ignoring it. Unless you felt GW2 is very not skill based… or whatever.

Hope you’re not talking to me. I’m a PvE’er not a PvPer. I just find some of the dungeons with the current stacking meta to be far too easy. Not enough risk. Not enough skill involved. Stack here, hit buttons. It trivializes the skill required to do the bosses without stacking (which I often prefer). And yes, sometimes I run non-stacking groups.

The thing is, PvE AI IS far more predictable than PvP, because you never really know what a player might do.

While it’s true PvP is less predictable than PvE we come back to the same problem again, the rewards issue.
What does a person who looses 100 PvP matches get vs someone who wins 50? They both get the same reward, so what is the motivation to win why strive to be at the top if there are no rewards at the top and the idiot running in circles in the base gets to join you there?
They’d have to add in unique rewards for win-streaks , kill ratios and win ratios (all after over 100 Pvp matches played obviously to prevent win 1 unlock everything) for it to be end game.

My vision of “End-game” is that successful completion makes you stand out from the crowd, which is something pretty lacking in the game.

The only reward is ranking, that’s it. That’s the reward. It used to be winning was its own reward. Today people have to be rewarded to win.

Do you know, when I was playing little league, we won a trophy if we came in first. But there was a feeling of competitive sportsmanship. Even if we had no chance of winning that trophy, we always tried to win the game, because you know, that’s why you play games.

Why should anyone have to be bribed to win?

Vayne.8563:

Conski Deshan.2057:

Vayne.8563:

laokoko.7403:

Vayne.8563:

laokoko.7403:

Windsagio.1340:

Vix.6730:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

So, what exactly do you wish to see? It would probably be helpful if players gave the Devs something more specific than ‘non-gear-treadmill end-game content’.

Raids. Dungeons. Post-80 continents. Unlockable secondary professions post-80 after questing. Unlockable skills post-80 through questing. Or we can just call it an expansion.

Aka, learnable content and vertical progression, not skillbased content and horizontal progression.

It’s a funny comment. People usually get better with more experience. Most skill based content do get easier because the player get more skilled.

I like to know what skill based content GW2 current have which isn’t learnable.

Pretty sure the poster is referring to stuff like dungeons and raids, where you’re literally memorizing a response to a preprogrammed script. There used to be time keepers in hard raids that would count of the seconds until X happened.

PvP end game isn’t as predictable or easy to learn.

well GW2 have pve too. have dungeon too, or Liadri encounter.

You make it sound like GW2 PvP is so special in someway that is skill based, and all other game isn’t.

maybe you are just ignoring GW2 pve, much like how the developer have been ignoring it. Unless you felt GW2 is very not skill based… or whatever.

Hope you’re not talking to me. I’m a PvE’er not a PvPer. I just find some of the dungeons with the current stacking meta to be far too easy. Not enough risk. Not enough skill involved. Stack here, hit buttons. It trivializes the skill required to do the bosses without stacking (which I often prefer). And yes, sometimes I run non-stacking groups.

The thing is, PvE AI IS far more predictable than PvP, because you never really know what a player might do.

While it’s true PvP is less predictable than PvE we come back to the same problem again, the rewards issue.
What does a person who looses 100 PvP matches get vs someone who wins 50? They both get the same reward, so what is the motivation to win why strive to be at the top if there are no rewards at the top and the idiot running in circles in the base gets to join you there?
They’d have to add in unique rewards for win-streaks , kill ratios and win ratios (all after over 100 Pvp matches played obviously to prevent win 1 unlock everything) for it to be end game.

My vision of “End-game” is that successful completion makes you stand out from the crowd, which is something pretty lacking in the game.

The only reward is ranking, that’s it. That’s the reward. It used to be winning was its own reward. Today people have to be rewarded to win.

Do you know, when I was playing little league, we won a trophy if we came in first. But there was a feeling of competitive sportsmanship. Even if we had no chance of winning that trophy, we always tried to win the game, because you know, that’s why you play games.

Why should anyone have to be bribed to win?

Because when there is a lot of different content, but no variation in rewards, people will only play the thing that is most efficient in rewards.

Illuminati.2431:

Vayne.8563:

Conski Deshan.2057:

Vayne.8563:

laokoko.7403:

Vayne.8563:

laokoko.7403:

Windsagio.1340:

Vix.6730:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

So, what exactly do you wish to see? It would probably be helpful if players gave the Devs something more specific than ‘non-gear-treadmill end-game content’.

Raids. Dungeons. Post-80 continents. Unlockable secondary professions post-80 after questing. Unlockable skills post-80 through questing. Or we can just call it an expansion.

Aka, learnable content and vertical progression, not skillbased content and horizontal progression.

It’s a funny comment. People usually get better with more experience. Most skill based content do get easier because the player get more skilled.

I like to know what skill based content GW2 current have which isn’t learnable.

Pretty sure the poster is referring to stuff like dungeons and raids, where you’re literally memorizing a response to a preprogrammed script. There used to be time keepers in hard raids that would count of the seconds until X happened.

PvP end game isn’t as predictable or easy to learn.

well GW2 have pve too. have dungeon too, or Liadri encounter.

You make it sound like GW2 PvP is so special in someway that is skill based, and all other game isn’t.

maybe you are just ignoring GW2 pve, much like how the developer have been ignoring it. Unless you felt GW2 is very not skill based… or whatever.

Hope you’re not talking to me. I’m a PvE’er not a PvPer. I just find some of the dungeons with the current stacking meta to be far too easy. Not enough risk. Not enough skill involved. Stack here, hit buttons. It trivializes the skill required to do the bosses without stacking (which I often prefer). And yes, sometimes I run non-stacking groups.

The thing is, PvE AI IS far more predictable than PvP, because you never really know what a player might do.

While it’s true PvP is less predictable than PvE we come back to the same problem again, the rewards issue.
What does a person who looses 100 PvP matches get vs someone who wins 50? They both get the same reward, so what is the motivation to win why strive to be at the top if there are no rewards at the top and the idiot running in circles in the base gets to join you there?
They’d have to add in unique rewards for win-streaks , kill ratios and win ratios (all after over 100 Pvp matches played obviously to prevent win 1 unlock everything) for it to be end game.

My vision of “End-game” is that successful completion makes you stand out from the crowd, which is something pretty lacking in the game.

The only reward is ranking, that’s it. That’s the reward. It used to be winning was its own reward. Today people have to be rewarded to win.

Do you know, when I was playing little league, we won a trophy if we came in first. But there was a feeling of competitive sportsmanship. Even if we had no chance of winning that trophy, we always tried to win the game, because you know, that’s why you play games.

Why should anyone have to be bribed to win?

Because when there is a lot of different content, but no variation in rewards, people will only play the thing that is most efficient in rewards.

Yep and winning is the most efficient reward. You get rewards much faster when winning in PvP.

Vayne.8563:

Yep and winning is the most efficient reward. You get rewards much faster when winning in PvP.

Yes, but it does not encourage to put efforts into getting better.

People, in fact, don’t wants the max reward but they want want to make the most reward possible with the lowest effort.

To win you are supposed to build up a proper team, train your skill, set up a schedule for team training and so on. That’s an huge amount of efforts to get just a slightly more rewards.

People don’t do that because they can just switch to the winning team in hotjoin and reap the maximum reward possible with little to no efforts or involvement.

Vayne.8563:

The thing is, PvE AI IS far more predictable than PvP, because you never really know what a player might do.

The solution is to make something like many games are going recently: mixing PvE and PvP content together to boost the challenge.

Shadow Realm was recently announced which is basically an RPG in which in dungeon the whole enemy AI is guided by a player who can eventually take control of a boss, set traps and make the life overall harder for the dungeon runners.

As it has been pointed out, the AI eventually will become predictable, which is not the case of humans. When you make a boss like Lupicus controlled by a player, then it will be freaking hard to beat and the challange would be 10x harder and, of course, it won’t get easier once the players learn the mechanics as another player can have a different playstyle and tactic entirely.

Sure it requires a lot of back-end work to create a PvPvE dungeon, but in my opinion it would be so much worth it.

Vayne.8563:

Actually even relatively casual players can get a legendary…depending of course on the legendary. It would take them longer, but it’s doable.

First of all, anyone “can” get a precursor drop. Anyone “can” play with the mystic forge. And anyone can run the boss champ route or EOTM in order to get badges and karma and money. It’s not difficult just time consuming. Hell you can take out a credit card and buy a legendary, or a precusor, but you don’t need to.

There are ways for people who play more casually to farm. 9 dungeon runs. If you’re not after Arah (and runs are sold anyway for that), then most dungeons are easily doable, even if you have to learn them. They’re just dungeon runs. A helpful guild will get people through those. T6 mats you get from champ bags, dry top, and of course you can buy with gold.

It’s a time sink and a gold sink….not a skill sink.

The only real problem for some people, in my opinion, might be the WvW component of world complete, which I’ve gotten on four characters already.

I’m relatively casual as far as style preference, but not hours played. I haven’t beaten liadri. But I have four legendaries.

Ok – so give us unique skins as hardcore content rewards that casuals can get too – but only through a huge time sink.

Example :

1 skin = 300 tokens.
One successful run = 5 tokens.
One attempted run = 1 guaranteed token.

If they work at it long enough they will get it.

@Harper

I actually like your idea a lot.

sorrow.2364:

Vayne.8563:

Yep and winning is the most efficient reward. You get rewards much faster when winning in PvP.

Yes, but it does not encourage to put efforts into getting better.

People, in fact, don’t wants the max reward but they want want to make the most reward possible with the lowest effort.

To win you are supposed to build up a proper team, train your skill, set up a schedule for team training and so on. That’s an huge amount of efforts to get just a slightly more rewards.

People don’t do that because they can just switch to the winning team in hotjoin and reap the maximum reward possible with little to no efforts or involvement.

It’s not really that small a difference. If you play random arenas you can only get a certain amount of points. You have to go to team arena to get more per day, which really stretches out how long it takes to get something.

Then you receive more than double the points every time you win a match. I’d say that taking three four times longer to get the same rewards is more than a small difference.

In theory you could grind an entire reward track in a day if you wanted in tournaments. You can’t do that with hot join. Hot join wasn’t really meant to be the competitive mode anyway.

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

Actually even relatively casual players can get a legendary…depending of course on the legendary. It would take them longer, but it’s doable.

First of all, anyone “can” get a precursor drop. Anyone “can” play with the mystic forge. And anyone can run the boss champ route or EOTM in order to get badges and karma and money. It’s not difficult just time consuming. Hell you can take out a credit card and buy a legendary, or a precusor, but you don’t need to.

There are ways for people who play more casually to farm. 9 dungeon runs. If you’re not after Arah (and runs are sold anyway for that), then most dungeons are easily doable, even if you have to learn them. They’re just dungeon runs. A helpful guild will get people through those. T6 mats you get from champ bags, dry top, and of course you can buy with gold.

It’s a time sink and a gold sink….not a skill sink.

The only real problem for some people, in my opinion, might be the WvW component of world complete, which I’ve gotten on four characters already.

I’m relatively casual as far as style preference, but not hours played. I haven’t beaten liadri. But I have four legendaries.

Ok – so give us unique skins as hardcore content rewards that casuals can get too – but only through a huge time sink.

Example :

1 skin = 300 tokens.
One successful run = 5 tokens.
One attempted run = 1 guaranteed token.

If they work at it long enough they will get it.

This isn’t a bad idea at all.

Vayne.8563:

It’s not really that small a difference. If you play random arenas you can only get a certain amount of points. You have to go to team arena to get more per day, which really stretches out how long it takes to get something.

Then you receive more than double the points every time you win a match. I’d say that taking three four times longer to get the same rewards is more than a small difference.

In theory you could grind an entire reward track in a day if you wanted in tournaments. You can’t do that with hot join. Hot join wasn’t really meant to be the competitive mode anyway.

That was not my point.

Of course you get more rewards playing Team Arena and I know that, the point is that the efforts to get those points are not worth the advantage itself so people are not encouraged to compete rather than just abusing Hotjoin.

Harper.4173:

Ok – so give us unique skins as hardcore content rewards that casuals can get too – but only through a huge time sink.

Example :

1 skin = 300 tokens.
One successful run = 5 tokens.
One attempted run = 1 guaranteed token.

If they work at it long enough they will get it.

This is called grind.

Vayne.8563:

It’s not really that small a difference. If you play random arenas you can only get a certain amount of points. You have to go to team arena to get more per day, which really stretches out how long it takes to get something.

Then you receive more than double the points every time you win a match. I’d say that taking three four times longer to get the same rewards is more than a small difference.

In theory you could grind an entire reward track in a day if you wanted in tournaments. You can’t do that with hot join. Hot join wasn’t really meant to be the competitive mode anyway.

I may be in a different group from the other two, as the appeal to me is not earning more gold per hour than the other player but specifically earning an item they will never have. Truly rare items are one of the things I love in games even when I don’t have them. That being the basis of why I don’t like token systems that reward failed attempts.

One of the appeals for Gw2 initially was the living world where i knew there’d be once off items that would never be obtainable again. I could show I was there, and in some item cases that I had rapidly mastered the content or beaten a limited time challenge. I was devastated when they re-released all the LS1 rewards.

sorrow.2364:

Vayne.8563:

It’s not really that small a difference. If you play random arenas you can only get a certain amount of points. You have to go to team arena to get more per day, which really stretches out how long it takes to get something.

Then you receive more than double the points every time you win a match. I’d say that taking three four times longer to get the same rewards is more than a small difference.

In theory you could grind an entire reward track in a day if you wanted in tournaments. You can’t do that with hot join. Hot join wasn’t really meant to be the competitive mode anyway.

That was not my point.

Of course you get more rewards playing Team Arena and I know that, the point is that the efforts to get those points are not worth the advantage itself so people are not encouraged to compete rather than just abusing Hotjoin.

They shouldn’t be encouraged to compete in my opinion. People who only play competitive games for the reward will leech just to get the losing reward instead of getting better, ruining the competitive mode. It’s already happening to some degree. People are saying solo queue is the new hot join. It would only get worse if that was what you had to to do get rewards. It would ruin the experience of most PvPers.

Conski Deshan.2057:

Vayne.8563:

It’s not really that small a difference. If you play random arenas you can only get a certain amount of points. You have to go to team arena to get more per day, which really stretches out how long it takes to get something.

Then you receive more than double the points every time you win a match. I’d say that taking three four times longer to get the same rewards is more than a small difference.

In theory you could grind an entire reward track in a day if you wanted in tournaments. You can’t do that with hot join. Hot join wasn’t really meant to be the competitive mode anyway.

I may be in a different group from the other two, as the appeal to me is not earning more gold per hour than the other player but specifically earning an item they will never have. Truly rare items are one of the things I love in games even when I don’t have them. That being the basis of why I don’t like token systems that reward failed attempts.

One of the appeals for Gw2 initially was the living world where i knew there’d be once off items that would never be obtainable again. I could show I was there, and in some item cases that I had rapidly mastered the content or beaten a limited time challenge. I was devastated when they re-released all the LS1 rewards.

I definitely hear what you’re saying and that’s a difficult call from Anet’s point of view. I mean, people who come on late and can’t get a lot of cool rewards have less reason to keep playing.

I guess the question is which group is actually bigger. The people who need unique rewards or the people who hate that there are rewards they can never get, ever.

I don’t know the answer myself.

It’s simplea actually.The more competitive players must get things faster.They put a lot of effort in the game.
Casual players should be able to get the same things but on a much lower pace.They don’t play enough so they can’s receive the same reward at the same spead as the hard core players.

For instance in another MMO that people don’t like to be talked about it here,in one of its expansions real PvP players were farming their items really fast by playing arenas.The more casual PvP players like me were receiving the reward slower from battlegrounds.But in the end it was possible to get it.I was farming the currency for the things that i wanted little by little.(And i don’t talk about gear treadmill to be added don’t misunderstand my words)

Harper.4173:

You want to be the shiniest most hardcore looking player?Work for it.

There’s a difference between putting more effort into achieving something, and something being locked beyond some arbitrary “skill” (meaning, usually reaction time and manual coordination, and sometimes muscle memory) threshold. Legendaries fall into the first category, and thus are available for all players – it’s just some would need to work longer for them than others. Lot of the proposed “end game” ideas fall into the second, which means it would be just plain inaccessible to majority. There’s a place in this game for the first kind of “end game”, but second should be avoided.

sorrow.2364:

Harper.4173:

Ok – so give us unique skins as hardcore content rewards that casuals can get too – but only through a huge time sink.

Example :

1 skin = 300 tokens.
One successful run = 5 tokens.
One attempted run = 1 guaranteed token.

If they work at it long enough they will get it.

This is called grind.

It isn’t.

The way I see it – grind is something you have to do – you have to get that best armor or weapon to progress.

Grind the way I see it is something you are forced to do in order to be able to progress further in the game.

With purely cosmetic rewards there’s no obligation to work for them unless you actually want them.
And why did you assume it’d be a grind?

If you finish a run and get 5 tokens it’ll be relatively easy to get the weapon you want. And if you just want that 1 token it could be made very easy to get.

By your logic legendary weapons are also a grind because you have to work on them for a long time – yet they are in the game.

Same with dailies – you get 1 laurel each day by doing a few things. Is that grind? Is someone forcing you to do it?
Are you unable to play if you don’t?

Astralporing.1957:

Harper.4173:

You want to be the shiniest most hardcore looking player?Work for it.

There’s a difference between putting more effort into achieving something, and something being locked beyond some arbitrary “skill” (meaning, usually reaction time and manual coordination, and sometimes muscle memory) threshold. Legendaries fall into the first category, and thus are available for all players – it’s just some would need to work longer for them than others. Lot of the proposed “end game” ideas fall into the second, which means it would be just plain inaccessible to majority. There’s a place in this game for the first kind of “end game”, but second should be avoided.

Please see my suggestion above. I think you could easily fit it into the first category.

Personally I don’t think that everyone should be able to get everything just because they want to – even in a game – but since most people feel this way the proposed solution has this angle covered.

Vayne.8563:

They shouldn’t be encouraged to compete in my opinion. People who only play competitive games for the reward will leech just to get the losing reward instead of getting better, ruining the competitive mode. It’s already happening to some degree. People are saying solo queue is the new hot join. It would only get worse if that was what you had to to do get rewards. It would ruin the experience of most PvPers.

I’ve highlighted what is wrong.

Harper.4173:

It isn’t.

The way I see it – grind is something you have to do – you have to get that best armor or weapon to progress.

Grind the way I see it is something you are forced to do in order to be able to progress further in the game.

With purely cosmetic rewards there’s no obligation to work for them unless you actually want them.
And why did you assume it’d be a grind?

If you finish a run and get 5 tokens it’ll be relatively easy to get the weapon you want. And if you just want that 1 token it could be made very easy to get.

By your logic legendary weapons are also a grind because you have to work on them for a long time – yet they are in the game.

Same with dailies – you get 1 laurel each day by doing a few things. Is that grind? Is someone forcing you to do it?
Are you unable to play if you don’t?

Grind is not something you have to do.

Grind is repetitive content done for whatever purpose.

You’re asking to repeat the same contents at least 60 times to get a rewards, so your are pretty much encouraging people to do the same content over and over to get to their goals. This is exactly the vocabulary definition of grinding.

Legendary weapons are not a grind because they don’t force you to do repetitive contents to get them.
The crafting materials are obtained everywhere, skill points are scattered anywhere in the game, globs of ectoplasm can be obtained in multiple ways. Even the dungeon badges can be obtained by either run the dungeon or doing PvP.
You can make a legendary countless ways and they are not at all the same content repeated over and over.

Making a Legendary is a time sink. Your suggestion is grind.

Of course someone can do the champion train or running the same dungeons over and over to craft a legendary, but the game shouldn’t encourage anyone to do so.