Guild Wars 2

Sartharina.3542:

Algreg.3629:

Garrisyl.7402:

Algreg.3629:

repetitive griefing of targeted specific players

Ah, yes. This is an interesting claim indeed. Can griefing the griefers be considered griefing? Have they deserved it? Isn’t it better to grief two guys before they can grief the entire Map? Is it just of me?

So many questions, so few answers.

The champ train is toxic, and something should be done about. This chat isn’t what new players should have to see.

No, that is quite a clear claim, not interesting at all. Yes, it can. And google “vigilantism” if you find any time in between your griefing endeavours.

And properly-targetted vigilante activities in-game, just as in real life, dramatically improve the quality of the world for everyone who isn’t a scumbag.

wonderful, kitten those pillars of civic society, let´s go back to the good old times of kitten homini lupus. Especially some gaming nerds and forum matadors will really do well in a world where everyone decides for himself what is justice and appoints himself executioner.

Its not the train thats the issue its the people. Also difficulty finding a group for a dungeon? Takes like 2 mins tops with the lfg tool.

Agree with OP; too many times new players are being yelled at when they just are doing what they suppose to to..roam and kill mobs, explore etc…

Too many experienced players think they OWN this land…well..surprise surprise..you do NOT!
As for new players…if you are with an unexperienced group and feel the need to take on a champ anywhere anytime…just DO it… the experience you get is valuable for your playing

Should you be harrassed by other players about it..tell them to bug off in a friendly way and if they continue…just block them and/or report

Train is showing them exactly what most of gw2 is all about- run around in a big blob mindlessly spamming 1, then collect loot. Pretty much covers all of pve and most of wvw.
Bear in mind also it is only one of the starting areas so most new toons would be unaffected anyway as they would start in a different area.
If I was a new player I’d be happy to see a big pile of people rush past and think ‘wow, people do things together in this game’, and then find out what it is all about.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

Tuntz.8953:

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

I think champ trains as a whole need to be killed off. To me, it’s far too rewarding for content that is so easy (and boring) to complete. The way I see it, ANet needs to rebalanced player rewards so that more difficult content becomes more rewarding, while easier content is less rewarding. It’s the only thing that makes any sense. O_o

I’d say they need to limit it so that champs only drop their loot bags once a day per character. That way killing a champ will still be rewarding if you happen to encounter one in an event, but farming them continuously will no longer be feasible. They could also implement a system where completing an event for the first time in a day yields greater rewards, but repeating that same event multiple times in a day yields less rewards with each subsequent completion. That way, you also can’t just use the trains for endless karma or exp farming.

Since this thread appears every week let me just copy/paste from the other threads the tl/dr of what you are saying

tl:dr – “You get something I want by doing something I don’t feel like doing and yet you get rewarded for it. I don’t want you to get rewarded by doing something I don’t feel like doing myself.”

Actually, what I’m trying to say is that I don’t really understand the logic of the reward system. Why do games reward repetitive, boring content, rather than rewarding fun, challenging content? It’s almost as if the devs are trying to say that they don’t want us to have fun and that they want us to grind if we want rewards. I’m not saying I don’t want others to be rewarded, but I want people to be rewarded for having fun because that’s what a game should be all about.

Is that a bad thing? Unless, of course, people find grinding the exact same champs, along the exact same path over and over and over again fun…

They obviously find it acceptable and fun enough to keep doing it. There’s nothing wrong with that – the motto of the game has always been to let players obtain what they want in the way the see fit, even if it’s repetitive. It’s their decision, not ours.

The problem is NOT the rewards (as in gold, loots, etc) at all, it’s the behavior that is associated with this particular type of method. If train runners didn’t have the tendency to insult and publicly bash anyone who disrupts their plans this wouldn’t be a problem at all. They could be tolerant and understand that not everyone knows or cares about running trains, while still being entitled to kill a champion. What they really are saying though, with their insults and toxic behavior, is that their own way of playing the game somehow has priority over anyone else’s choice. When they type “omg idiots, wait for the zerk”, I read “My right to play how I want is above yours” or “You have to sacrifice the way you chose to play in benefit of how I chose to play”. This isn’t the behavior we want in the game, much less in starting areas. As of now, it’s extremely easy to give new players the impression that this is the GW2 community. First impressions are powerful, stable and determinant in our decision to stick with the game or not, and if a fifth of the newcomers (actually more, since the Human character race holds more percentage than the others) is immediately blasted with disrespect and abusive toxic language, there is a clear problem.
While the “exposing newcomers to disrespectful behavior” is a problem, the one thing fundamentally wrong about how train runners have been behaving is that it’s against the code of conduct that this game is built on and that we all accepted just by playing. This is the same ruleset that results in players being banned for being insultive in whisper – why wouldn’t it apply to map chat?

It’s been brought up that there are other starting areas. It seems like an irrelevant argument. Someone’s aggressive behavior shouldn’t discourage players from creating human characters. Surely we’re not given a race option only so that in the end we’re forced into whatever race happens to belong to a train-free starting area. This is basically defending that players not only need to respect the train method, they now need to pick their race depending on it.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

Actually, what I’m trying to say is that I don’t really understand the logic of the reward system. Why do games reward repetitive, boring content, rather than rewarding fun, challenging content? It’s almost as if the devs are trying to say that they don’t want us to have fun and that they want us to grind if we want rewards. I’m not saying I don’t want others to be rewarded, but I want people to be rewarded for having fun because that’s what a game should be all about.

Is that a bad thing? Unless, of course, people find grinding the exact same champs, along the exact same path over and over and over again fun…

What’s boring to you might be fun for others , instead of asking to nerf an activity that you consider boring, ask the dev’s to increase the reward of what you think is fun and challenging.

JCROY.5730:

Agree with OP; too many times new players are being yelled at when they just are doing what they suppose to to..roam and kill mobs, explore etc…

Too many experienced players think they OWN this land…well..surprise surprise..you do NOT!
As for new players…if you are with an unexperienced group and feel the need to take on a champ anywhere anytime…just DO it… the experience you get is valuable for your playing

Should you be harrassed by other players about it..tell them to bug off in a friendly way and if they continue…just block them and/or report

Let’s be honest here , new players don’t kill the champs , train griefers do , what happens to new players is what OP described

CaptnRio.2705:

One of my favorite experiences during the beta of GW2 was stumbling upon the Troll’s stone, picking it up and feeling confused as i got absolutely destroyed by the Champion Cave Troll.

Why do this lvl 80’s kill them ? So they can print-screen map chat and ask for nerfs because they don’t want people to get rewarded for something that they don’t want to do themselves because they consider it to be a boring activity.

Tuntz.8953:

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

Actually, what I’m trying to say is that I don’t really understand the logic of the reward system. Why do games reward repetitive, boring content, rather than rewarding fun, challenging content? It’s almost as if the devs are trying to say that they don’t want us to have fun and that they want us to grind if we want rewards. I’m not saying I don’t want others to be rewarded, but I want people to be rewarded for having fun because that’s what a game should be all about.

Is that a bad thing? Unless, of course, people find grinding the exact same champs, along the exact same path over and over and over again fun…

What’s boring to you might be fun for others , instead of asking to nerf an activity that you consider boring, ask the dev’s to increase the reward of what you think is fun and challenging.

Well, isn’t it the same result either way?

If you look at all other forms of content in the game, all of them suffer from diminishing returns in some way or another. World bosses can only be done once per day per character for the chest, and once per account for the bonus. Dungeons can only be completed once per day for the full reward and after that suffer from diminishing returns. Fractals can only be completed once per day per level bracket for the full rewards. Even normal farming runs suffer from diminishing returns if you farm a place for too long.

The only content that does not suffer from these diminishing returns is champ farming, which is why champ trains are the most efficient method for acquiring income. My suggestions for the champ train changes were made with the idea of bringing them in line with the rest of the game, and make it so that players can choose what they want to do rather than feeling compelled to do something simply because it is more efficient than the alternatives. As it is right now, however, champ trains are unbalanced and significantly more rewarding than most other forms of game content, especially with respect to the challenge involved. To me, that doesn’t make sense, especially when you have content that is far more challenging and also far less rewarding, which is a bummer.

I have also seen (presumably) new players asking ‘where the train is’ in Kessex Hills, probably because they think there’s one in every zone and it’s how you should play the game. It’s disheartening, at least to me.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

Well, isn’t it the same result either way?

If you look at all other forms of content in the game, all of them suffer from diminishing returns in some way or another. World bosses can only be done once per day per character for the chest, and once per account for the bonus. Dungeons can only be completed once per day for the full reward and after that suffer from diminishing returns. Fractals can only be completed once per day per level bracket for the full rewards. Even normal farming runs suffer from diminishing returns if you farm a place for too long.

The only content that does not suffer from these diminishing returns is champ farming, which is why champ trains are the most efficient method for acquiring income. My suggestions for the champ train changes were made with the idea of bringing them in line with the rest of the game, and make it so that players can choose what they want to do rather than feeling compelled to do something simply because it is more efficient than the alternatives. As it is right now, however, champ trains are unbalanced and significantly more rewarding than most other forms of game content, especially with respect to the challenge involved.

So why don’t you ask to kill the EOTM train as well ? Or the FG ? Also , you assume that people that do the train don’t do any of the other activities , when that is not true.
I do all the activities you mentioned and the train ( not the QD , but the FG and EOTM ). If they remove the train do you think that i and others will repeat the same activiy already done before ? We will simply log out and go do something else , and that is not what ANET wants( i think…)

There really should be a Jarassic Park type area just for those that want this type of content. Maybe even something lvl 80’s would enjoy.

Iluzija.1798:

Its not the train thats the issue its the people.

I agree but just to refine this a little, it’s some of the people. Most people running the train are polite and well mannered, we should be careful not to tar them all with the same brush just because one or two are behaving badly.

I personally think the train is fine, I sometimes hop on it if I have little time to do my dailies and need events and/or champs but I find it too dull to stay on it for long.

Tuntz.8953:

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

Well, isn’t it the same result either way?

If you look at all other forms of content in the game, all of them suffer from diminishing returns in some way or another. World bosses can only be done once per day per character for the chest, and once per account for the bonus. Dungeons can only be completed once per day for the full reward and after that suffer from diminishing returns. Fractals can only be completed once per day per level bracket for the full rewards. Even normal farming runs suffer from diminishing returns if you farm a place for too long.

The only content that does not suffer from these diminishing returns is champ farming, which is why champ trains are the most efficient method for acquiring income. My suggestions for the champ train changes were made with the idea of bringing them in line with the rest of the game, and make it so that players can choose what they want to do rather than feeling compelled to do something simply because it is more efficient than the alternatives. As it is right now, however, champ trains are unbalanced and significantly more rewarding than most other forms of game content, especially with respect to the challenge involved.

So why don’t you ask to kill the EOTM train as well ? Or the FG ? Also , you assume that people that do the train don’t do any of the other activities , when that is not true.
I do all the activities you mentioned and the train ( not the QD , but the FG and EOTM ). If they remove the train do you think that i and others will repeat the same activiy already done before ? We will simply log out and go do something else , and that is not what ANET wants( i think…)

I never made any assumptions. I’m just talking about the issues with the trains which is on topic with this discussion. This isn’t a thread about EOTM, etc, otherwise I would have commented on those, however if you think about it rationally, any changes to champ loot drops would affect some of the rewards in EOTM and other content as well.

In the end, I don’t see why ANet would nerf every other form of reward farming and leave Champ farming as the most viable. I think they should either nerf champ farming to bring it in line with everything else, or take away the diminishing returns from other forms of content so as to lessen the impact of champ trains.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

In the end, I don’t see why ANet would nerf every other form of reward farming and leave Champ farming as the most viable. I think they should either nerf champ farming to bring it in line with everything else, or take away the diminishing returns from other forms of content so as to lessen the impact of champ trains.

It’s not the rewards or how viable it is as a source of income. This topic is about the insults, the general attitude that other players must sacrifice their choice of how to play the game because of the train method, and the overall breaking of the code of conduct that gets players banned in other contexts.

Pifil.5193:

Iluzija.1798:

Its not the train thats the issue its the people.

I agree but just to refine this a little, it’s some of the people. Most people running the train are polite and well mannered, we should be careful not to tar them all with the same brush just because one or two are behaving badly.

I personally think the train is fine, I sometimes hop on it if I have little time to do my dailies and need events and/or champs but I find it too dull to stay on it for long.

Yes I agree, its a shame the turds shine over the diamonds

Reopen the Grand Pavilion and time the bosses to appear after each other in succession, going perfectly clockwise with zero variation. Keep the difficulty the way it was back then. Remove the upgrading of players to lvl80, let them keep their real level. Increase rewards slightly to seduce farmers away from QD. They can run around in that pit until they get dizzy without disturbing anyone. Make them happy. Somewhere else.

zoejo.2317:

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

In the end, I don’t see why ANet would nerf every other form of reward farming and leave Champ farming as the most viable. I think they should either nerf champ farming to bring it in line with everything else, or take away the diminishing returns from other forms of content so as to lessen the impact of champ trains.

It’s not the rewards or how viable it is as a source of income. This topic is about the insults, the general attitude that other players must sacrifice their choice of how to play the game because of the train method, and the overall breaking of the code of conduct that gets players banned in other contexts.

Yes, we did go off on a bit of a tangent there, but my original comment was actually made with the idea in mind that champ rewards would be less farmable, and thus, you wouldn’t see massive trains doing it continuously anymore, in Queensdale or anywhere else, which would essentially resolve the issue the OP brought up.

CaptnRio.2705:

I am openly against the train in Queensdale (QD). Not about trains in and of themselves, just the one currently in QD. I have admittedly started many disagreements in map chat about why the QD train is not healthy and have received nothing but ill thought out arguments that i wish to address here and hopefully raise awareness of the issue with Anet.

Firstly, my main argument for why the QD Train is a bad thing is because it is in a starting area. An area where players who are just starting out should be able to freely roam around and learn to play the game without a rampaging horde of higher level characters running around zerging everything in sight. Starter zones should be able to teach players how to control their character with their weapon abilities, utility skills and how to keep moving and dodging in order to survive.
Instead, what players get upon first arriving in QD is a massive blob of players who have grouped up for easy experience and non-challenging gameplay.

A majority of the arguments that i receive, is that i should not tell people how to play the game. This argument swings both ways as i have on numerous occasions when spawning the Champion Cave Troll by Vale WP and request assistance, that i should stop being a troll and wait for others in the train to come and kill it. This in itself is an example of people trying to tell me how to play the game which they seem very against when i say that the train should be stopped. A friend of mine once got so much offensive and unneeded harassment for killing a champion on the path of the QD train through Map chat and Whispers, that they did not log on for a few days. I can only imagine what this would be like to a player who logged on their first day and received this sort of abuse.

Before anything let me say I don’t like champ trains, not in QD, not in FGS, why? They’re boring.

Secondly, if you have such a big problem, why even go to QD in the first place? If you wanna kill champions for you monthly for example there are Champions on EVERY map, why do you specifically feel the need to go to QD where you know there’s always a train going, and then go ahead and start one out of order, not only that since you apparently can’t solo those you ask in chat for help which you KNOW will antagonize everyone running the train.

As for your starting area for fresh new players, before they introduced the champion bags, these champions would stay there hours or even days unkilled, even if you asked for assistance no one would come.
Then you have to remember, a new player is not gonna know where these champions spawn, if they come across one, they can’t kill it, and without the rewards in place that promote the champion train, NO ONE will come to his aid if he asks for.

So at the end, and again I’m not pro champ train, it just seems like you just wanna spoil other people’s way of playing because you dislike it, take away the rewards and people will go away, and so will these kills, it won’t make the slightest difference for new players since right now a person can join, complete the map and never running into the train anyway.

I remember during my Far Shiverpeaks days that I would run a “counter-train” to the main train. I received a lot of positive comments and even gold via mail!

Surprised that your friend received so much negativity. ’Tis a little disappointing.

I have to agree with the Queensdale train though. It should not be allowed. Frostgorge Sound train makes a lot more gold + exotics so they should simply stick to that.

To Dean Calaway.9718: The OP’s argument concerns new players coming to Queensdale as a Human, not as a hi-level player looking for champion kills.

Astroplatypus.4573:

The QD train is not an issue for all new players, it only affects the boring, unoriginal human players. The train indirectly makes it more enjoyable to start playing as a charr, asura, sylvari, or norn, and thereby encourages more character race diversity. I fully support the train for this reason!

The train doesn’t effected me at all whenever i was leveling a character in Queensdale since i never had the feeling that i wanted to solo a champ with a level 10-15 character and only tried them when there were enough people around.

Personally i never joined that train, only did FGS from time to time, but i really don’t understand all the hate.

CaptnRio.2705:

…massive blob of players who have grouped up for easy experience and non-challenging gameplay…

I think you just described the great majority of all MMO players. Chances are, the newbie who witnesses this is one of them.

Donutdude.9582:

I remember during my Far Shiverpeaks days that I would run a “counter-train” to the main train. I received a lot of positive comments and even gold via mail!

So you ran this counter train with the specific purpose of disrupting the main train?

I’m not surprised you received positive comments, lots of people who play MMOs seem to like this kind of “griefing” especially when they have some kind of objection to whatever activity is being disrupted.

Pifil.5193:

Donutdude.9582:

I remember during my Far Shiverpeaks days that I would run a “counter-train” to the main train. I received a lot of positive comments and even gold via mail!

So you ran this counter train with the specific purpose of disrupting the main train?

I’m not surprised you received positive comments, lots of people who play MMOs seem to like this kind of “griefing” especially when they have some kind of objection to whatever activity is being disrupted.

I can already see what happens there when we would really get duels in the open world. People that just run around Queensdale the whole day and duel-spam anyone running with the train .. lol

Donutdude.9582:

To Dean Calaway.9718: The OP’s argument concerns new players coming to Queensdale as a Human, not as a hi-level player looking for champion kills.

Read my post again.

A new player doesn’t know where these champions are, they’ll like complete the map without ever seeing the train.

A new player CAN’T kill a champion.

On the slim chance a new player comes across the train while killing a champion, guess what? They score a kill, and get rewards.

No rewards, no train, new player stumbles across a champ & asks for help, NO ONE can be bother, he moves on doing something else.

The train is not “toxic” for new players, it’s “toxic” for trolls.

The original post by the OP shows he just likes to antagonize the train and he does so willingly on purpose, this “unfriendly for new players” is just a half kitten excuse for his behaviour.

Garrisyl.7402:

Now every time I see them online training in QD and I have nothing better to do, I invite some guildies to start killing champs in random order. They usually log out after 15 minutes or move to another area. .

I’d say this is much worse, since you’re going out of your way to troll/harass other people. It’s no longer a case of playing how you want, if your main intent is malicious and to cause harm to others.

Dean Calaway.9718:

Donutdude.9582:

To Dean Calaway.9718: The OP’s argument concerns new players coming to Queensdale as a Human, not as a hi-level player looking for champion kills.

Read my post again.

A new player doesn’t know where these champions are, they’ll like complete the map without ever seeing the train.

A new player CAN’T kill a champion.

On the slim chance a new player comes across the train while killing a champion, guess what? They score a kill, and get rewards.

No rewards, no train, new player stumbles across a champ & asks for help, NO ONE can be bother, he moves on doing something else.

The train is not “toxic” for new players, it’s “toxic” for trolls.

The original post by the OP shows he just likes to antagonize the train and he does so willingly on purpose, this “unfriendly for new players” is just a half kitten excuse for his behaviour.

^^ Exactly what i think (and wrote in some parts before)

Mostly the players that complain are those those oh so mighty heroes that search their “challenge” in killing lvl 10 champs with their fully geared 80s and the evil train is stealing them their “challenge”.

If players want to attempt to champ train, that’s fine.

If a smaller group of players sees oak up and decides they wanna take it down, that’s fine.

If it messes up the train, that’s fine too.

Basically no one owns the rights to the events. The train doesn’t get to complain when someone else does an event, and the other players in the zone don’t get to complain when the train does an event.

The train drama sure does make map chat amusing though.

Dean Calaway.9718:

Read my post again.

A new player doesn’t know where these champions are, they’ll like complete the map without ever seeing the train.

A new player CAN’T kill a champion.

On the slim chance a new player comes across the train while killing a champion, guess what? They score a kill, and get rewards.

No rewards, no train, new player stumbles across a champ & asks for help, NO ONE can be bother, he moves on doing something else.

The train is not “toxic” for new players, it’s “toxic” for trolls.

The original post by the OP shows he just likes to antagonize the train and he does so willingly on purpose, this “unfriendly for new players” is just a half kitten excuse for his behaviour.

Whilst I agree with you to an extent, I won’t change my opinion on the QD train.

Sure, new players will probably not kill a champion solo. However, I do not think having certain champions zerged my hi-leveled players is a positive thing for a newbie to see – I know I certainly wouldn’t like to see it.

The idea of a “train” robs the game of the “dynamic” part to the events. They’re meant to be opportunistic targets to kill, not specifically-timed mobs to be farmed.

Pifil.5193:

So you ran this counter train with the specific purpose of disrupting the main train?

I’m not surprised you received positive comments, lots of people who play MMOs seem to like this kind of “griefing” especially when they have some kind of objection to whatever activity is being disrupted.

I didn’t do it intentionally to begin with. I was leveling an alt. character and I happened to run across the Oakheart. A few low-level characters were around so we all decided to kill it.

The train arrived, flamed us MASSIVELY for it then continued on their way. It was then that I decided to purposefully antagonise the main train because, at the end of the day, that kind of behaviour is something I won’t tolerate.

Yes, you can make the argument that I’m as bad as they are but at least I was simply playing the game for fun without any sense of entitlement. The train, on the other hand, believes that every train champion is THEIRS and theirs alone, something that really gets under my skin.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

zoejo.2317:

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

In the end, I don’t see why ANet would nerf every other form of reward farming and leave Champ farming as the most viable. I think they should either nerf champ farming to bring it in line with everything else, or take away the diminishing returns from other forms of content so as to lessen the impact of champ trains.

It’s not the rewards or how viable it is as a source of income. This topic is about the insults, the general attitude that other players must sacrifice their choice of how to play the game because of the train method, and the overall breaking of the code of conduct that gets players banned in other contexts.

Yes, we did go off on a bit of a tangent there, but my original comment was actually made with the idea in mind that champ rewards would be less farmable, and thus, you wouldn’t see massive trains doing it continuously anymore, in Queensdale or anywhere else, which would essentially resolve the issue the OP brought up.

True, but we shouldn’t take privilieges away from people who aren’t doing anything wrong (train runners with actual good attitudes) just because some are breaking the rules. Solutions shouldn’t punish those who aren’t at fault. It’s Anet’s job to come up with something that’ll stop this nonsensical rudeness while preserving the player’s right to farm if they like it.

I love the QD Train, but I also see problems associated with it as well.

A few months ago I created a Human Mesmer and after playing through the starting cut scene area and then doing a little running around in QD to get the waypoints, jumped on the train.
For the next 2.5 weeks, whenever I’d log on to that character, I’d run the train. Nothing else. It took this mesmer from level 5 or 6 up to level 59 or 60,

At this point the battle of Lion’s Arch LS began, so I moved the character over there, and proceeded to farm LA to the conclusion of the Living Story. This easily got him to Level 80.

So, it was a quick leveling process (I think the total time played from creation to 80 was easily under 20 hours), but the character and I as a player did suffer.

By level 80
- This character only had around 18% map completion. This made using this character for guild missions next to impossible until I explored more.
- He was under geared – This was by choice, as for this character only used loot from drops or Karma Vendors, The TP was off limits.
- I really didn’t know how to play a mesmer. Let’s be honest, you can auto attack your way through a champ train, never touching any other ability key besides 1.
The Lions Arch battle offered a little more difficulty. However, once you got into a zerg, ‘1’ was really all you needed.
This became apparent when I when I took this toon to WvW and PvP and was stomped, over and over.
- He did generate a good deal of karma (from champs) and crafting materials (salvaged what I could not use)
- Through salvaging, I was able to to bump my MF up a good deal – although the ’children’s drawings’ were a major contributor to that.

My Mesmer is temporarily shelved as I’m now working on another character. I’m leveling the new one via map exploration, but find myself drawn to a circuit or two of the QD Train every time I log in just for the quick EXP boost from killing the champs.

In this regard the QD Train is low risk, moderate gain for the effort and time put in.

I wouldn’t be sad to see the QD Train nerfed, but I’d be hard pressed to another where the pay off is as good (sub-level 80 zones).

Tarnished Coast knows that their pathetic “champ train” is entirely at the whim of a set group of players. My guild for example can destroy it when we feel like

Breaking the train is the only way to get rid of the entitled, abusive and utterly obnoxious children who shout down any opposition to their mindless autoattack spamcircles.

I dont understand this idea that a new player seeing a zerg of players will turn the new player away from the game. Isn’t that the appeal of this game? Events with +20 players participating?

That was my first real positive memory from when i started playing GW2. I ran into a big group of players fighting the spider in QD and i thought it was awesome. That’s what i like to see in an MMO, other players actually doing stuff.

Scrambles.2604:

I dont understand this idea that a new player seeing a zerg of players will turn the new player away from the game. Isn’t that the appeal of this game? Events with +20 players participating?

That was my first real positive memory from when i started playing GW2. I ran into a big group of players fighting the spider in QD and i thought it was awesome. That’s what i like to see in an MMO, other players actually doing stuff.

A group of players running together won’t make a new player turn away from the game, but insultive and disrespectful language will. Specially if it’s directed at said new player who all he did was kill a mob.

I have no issue with the QD champ train, for the most part. Sometimes I tag along, sometimes I disrupt it (usually when they’re being a bunch of kittens).

The only time I take exception to it, is when they start being kittens to people that are simply playing the game.

Play and let play. To each their own.

I wouldn’t need to champ train if they’d add more end-game pve options.
I’m bored to tears of dungeons and the champ train is quick and mindless for when I’m tired after a day of work and don’t want to do anything more involved

Also Anet kind of obliterated the one fun thing I still liked to do (Teq/Wurm which I used to do multiple times a night) so what else is there for me to do other than farm so I can get my legendary sometime this millennium

cakesphere.5910:

I wouldn’t need to champ train if they’d add more end-game pve options.

Just saiyan

The OP wasn’t complaining about running trains in itself. It’s people’s entitled attitude and general offensive behavior that’s the problem.

zoejo.2317:

cakesphere.5910:

I wouldn’t need to champ train if they’d add more end-game pve options.

Just saiyan

The OP wasn’t complaining about running trains in itself. It’s people’s entitled attitude and general offensive behavior that’s the problem.

Well, we have issues with that everywhere. In game, and out. It only becomes apparent because like tends to congregate with like.

I agree with the OP, in the context that if the people in the QD train are being kittens it could leave a negative impression on a new player. However, that’s when other people need to step in and slap them down for being kittens. No reason to get your panties in a bunch over a champ or two, imo.

Donutdude.9582:

Pifil.5193:

So you ran this counter train with the specific purpose of disrupting the main train?

I’m not surprised you received positive comments, lots of people who play MMOs seem to like this kind of “griefing” especially when they have some kind of objection to whatever activity is being disrupted.

I didn’t do it intentionally to begin with. I was leveling an alt. character and I happened to run across the Oakheart. A few low-level characters were around so we all decided to kill it.

The train arrived, flamed us MASSIVELY for it then continued on their way. It was then that I decided to purposefully antagonise the main train because, at the end of the day, that kind of behaviour is something I won’t tolerate.

Yes, you can make the argument that I’m as bad as they are but at least I was simply playing the game for fun without any sense of entitlement. The train, on the other hand, believes that every train champion is THEIRS and theirs alone, something that really gets under my skin.

The train is not a single entity with some kind of hive-mind: most of the people in that train will feel mildly inconvenienced if they arrive and someone has already killed a champ but they just move on to the next one without comment, a couple of the people in the train may flame those who killed the champ yes, and that is wrong (although, in my experience, I’ve normally seen people try to get them to join the train rather than run against it) but you’re going out of your way to attempt to disrupt the game for everyone in that train, not just the flamers.

So yeah, I’d say you’re as bad as the flamers, probably worse in some ways because your actions are indiscriminate and affect the “innocent” as well as the “guilty”. Even more so if you come to a zone with the express purpose of creating a “counter train” regardless of whether or not anyone flames anyone.

But hey, either way it’s not a capital offence.

Lambent.6375:

CaptnRio.2705:

.

- – SNIP – -

That’s not why those trains are hard to come by.

Frostgorge train got nerfed into oblivion. (I mean, someone can still do it if they want to, but yeh)

There is no train in CS, or at least I have yet to see one since megaservers arrived.
Cursed Shore is a land of chaos, I mean, it’s an okay place for events and loot, but it’s not as great as it could be, because people in cursed generally do what they want to do, and they wont form up in any train or anything, and wont even bother to call out events sometimes ,and people are often arguing about whether to defend an event, or let it fail., and do things like start Plinx when an event at shelter is going on, etc

Queensdales isn’t really about the loot, at least not for most people I would think. I just got done participating in the “train” to finish my daily. Train in quotes because someone was trolling it of course. (unless you don’t count running around as a zerk warrior dpsing champs down, and not even bothering to call them out not trolling, and when they happen to catch up to you, immediately port to a different champ)

Not sure if serious Lambent.
There is always a train operating across Curshed Shore.. I even popped on at 8.30am today and there was one running.
Worse now the much larger trains start out at Mage then just repeatedly fail Shelter to respawn the event over and over for champ bags… at least the likes of Frostgorge and Queensdale actually do complete things and move on through their rotations.
Failing event purposely to respawn is likely exploiting the system but its become par for the course for GW2.
Champ trains do a multiple of things.. they can help you level, they can get your dailies and they can get you some the odd shiny and some coin for your boredom.. but it also creates toxicity across the maps.. trains think they own maps and cry insults and abuse to any and all that wish to “play the game they want” if a champ is killed out of their little bubble rotations.
New players can be put of for sure or worse just join in and learn the only way ANET like this game to run…. zerg style. Then they hit Orr and facepalm in Grenth or such without a clue and lay there not evening realising what to do or how staying dead affect everyone else there.
Add to that you get players who get tired of the train abuse and start to go out of their way to purposely mess rotations up or troll events in spite.
Yes trains have a purpose, but not in starter maps and they certainly don’t own maps when they run, but until ANET does something to kill the trains either by heavy DR, reward lock outs or simply killing the rotations like they have with other World Bosses, then this is how GW2 will play out repeatedly.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

zoejo.2317:

cakesphere.5910:

I wouldn’t need to champ train if they’d add more end-game pve options.

Just saiyan

The OP wasn’t complaining about running trains in itself. It’s people’s entitled attitude and general offensive behavior that’s the problem.

Well, we have issues with that everywhere. In game, and out. It only becomes apparent because like tends to congregate with like.

I agree with the OP, in the context that if the people in the QD train are being kittens it could leave a negative impression on a new player. However, that’s when other people need to step in and slap them down for being kittens. No reason to get your panties in a bunch over a champ or two, imo.

I don’t run trains so I guarantee the champs are not what I find annoying.
I agree that “people need to step in”. Hopefully Anet staff, since reasonable responses from players usually just trigger more insults.

Every person here citing toxic behavior as a reason to dislike the train and want it gone are justified. The toxicity is the problem, however, not the activity of the “train” itself.

If you remove the QD train, those toxic players are going to still be toxic about something else.

You can act like you’re doing this on behalf of new players, but be honest: there’s not that many brand new human players that are capable of taking down these Champs without the train. I think a lot of you people complaining are that you start new alts and have to deal with it. Sorry but boo-hoo, so what?

The activity isn’t the problem, nor is it the zerg kill-em-all mindset, its the players that have toxic attitudes, and those players will still be playing GW2 even if you eliminate the QD zerg, so if that’s your problem, lets hear some solutions focused on that. Plenty of calm people run the train but you want to ruin their playing as well?

Think it through.

zoejo.2317:

I don’t run trains so I guarantee the champs are not what I find annoying.
I agree that “people need to step in”. Hopefully Anet staff, since reasonable responses from players usually just trigger more insults.

It was a general you, not a you specifically statement.

I don’t typically see anyone with the anet tag out in QD, though I know that doesn’t necessarily mean anything. Still, if a regular person intervening causes insults to increase, then personally, I just report them.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I don’t typically see anyone with the anet tag out in QD, though I know that doesn’t necessarily mean anything. Still, if a regular person intervening causes insults to increase, then personally, I just report them.

Same. It’s the best thing to do, but unfortunately not really a visible measure that will discourage others, or clean the map chat for that matter – which is a main aspect of the problem.
As arejeidi suggested above, there needs to be a solution that won’t remove the trains from the game (since some people run them peacefully) but instead promote a friendlier attitude.

The zerg trains create a toxic environment in PvE, wreak hell on the game’s infrastructure, and teach new players that Zerging is the ‘best’ way to play, even though the game is much more rewarding when approached without a “Farm/Grind all the things” mentality that the constant trains provide. This isn’t Progress Quest. Counter-training proves to and teaches players that trains AREN’T effective or reliable in farming experience, karma, and cash, and encourage zerg to break up and find new content, and not rely on others to try to have their fun.

zoejo.2317:

Same. It’s the best thing to do, but unfortunately not really a visible measure that will discourage others, or clean the map chat for that matter – which is a main aspect of the problem.
As arejeidi suggested above, there needs to be a solution that won’t remove the trains from the game (since some people run them peacefully) but instead promote a friendlier attitude.

/Agreed

Just have no clue what that might be, myself. Obviously they can’t change reporting to do anything immediately (woo boy that could be abused terribly), and has to wait to be reviewed. Food for thought I suppose…

Pifil.5193:

Donutdude.9582:

I remember during my Far Shiverpeaks days that I would run a “counter-train” to the main train. I received a lot of positive comments and even gold via mail!

So you ran this counter train with the specific purpose of disrupting the main train?

I’m not surprised you received positive comments, lots of people who play MMOs seem to like this kind of “griefing” especially when they have some kind of objection to whatever activity is being disrupted.

Its not griefing, its called to interrupt enemy actions and objectives.

IF players dont want to be killed, Queensdale is open 24/7 i think.

hannah mee.7925:

I just think it’s silly when it bothers people in the train when someone else kills the champion.

that baby stealing dingo.7216:

Basically a bunch of random people are having fun playing the game; is this not the point?

Agreed on both counts. If I find a champion, and I think I can take it down solo (or with whoever else happens to be there) I will — and it’s not because I particularly hate the trains, it’s because that’s just what I want to do. And I’ll feel pretty awesome if I do manage to solo it. There is no “reserved” sign, and the trains don’t own exclusive hunting rights or whatever.

Likewise if I find a whole bunch of people camped in a spot waiting for the spawn, I will hang around and join in, because it can be fun. I almost never follow along to the next one.

My usual reaction to seeing the train running around is “that’s weird. Weird mostly in a fun way, but weird.”

Oh, and I love exploring and finding stuff, whether it’s a sarcastic NPC or a beautiful view or a champion event.

And this thread made me realize I just keep map chat turned off. I wonder if that gives me a more positive outlook toward the game and its player base?

I think that we need to move the train from queensdail in to another map.
In queensdale you need to use waypoints all the time. I would like to see a train where we will run in circles all the time without using a waypoint, that way it will be more fun.

I like trains, Queensdale is boring train. move it on another map.

Foosnark.1784:

Oh, and I love exploring and finding stuff, whether it’s a sarcastic NPC or a beautiful view or a champion event.

And this thread made me realize I just keep map chat turned off. I wonder if that gives me a more positive outlook toward the game and its player base?

I too have found peace in running combat log instead of chat. Though i miss guild chat messages…but that’s a UI problem.

Otherwise, while i have seen vitriol in the QD map chat, more often than not, it’s either quiet or just the occasional “train?” followed by a map location. I see the same amount of “toxicity” in QD as i do in WvW, dungeons, and LS.