Guild Wars 2

So there are people that sit around thinking of killing the train off by lowering the loot value. Some want to do away with champs entirely. Where is it exactly you want these people at and why? Forcing people to do something YOU want is NOT healthy for the game. They will leave rather than be funneled into the narrow gate to do what YOU want them to do. I suspect the greater issue that is not being talked about by the vocal minority is that they need bodies elsewhere in the game and they think by killing off venues that attract masses will cause people to meander into those aspects of the game. It wont work. These people either dont find those aspects of the game attractive already or they simply do not have time for it. All you will do is cause the truly casual players to go to some other game for kicks.

It is my belief that the ones calling the train people elitist jerks are really the elitist jerks themselves. They arent interested in being cooperative. They dont truly have the games health as a concern. If they did they would be looking at why the train works and trying to emulate that into the rest of the game. Say what you will but log in at any time of day and that train will be rolling which is testament to its popularity and thus defies your selfish logic that it is somehow flawed. The fact that so many high levels show up to derail the train demonstrates the true nature of what is wrong with GW2. These people arent marching to the beat of your drum. They are doing what THEY want to do and you simply cant handle that. Now imagine if the rest of the game worked as nicely as that train does. People coming together regardless of guilds and now even servers to accomplish something. Something that can be achieved reasonably without some jerk telling us all where to stand and what to do.

Not everyone is a professional gamer. We have lives. We live outside our computers. We want to be able to play the game “our way” too. We dont have timeless hours to plan for a very technical encounter. All we want to do is get in here and have fun, meet new people and blow some things up. Its very relaxing somehow after a day at a real grind to come home and slaughter a pig over and over. Sometimes I think these people that rant about this or that just need a job or something.

You want this game to live and breathe? Find ways to bring everyone together like the train does. Its not noobs derailing the train. Better than 90% of the genuine noobs run with the train when they learn what it is I would wager. Its the established level 80 elitist jerks that are looking for their in-game fame that ruin every game like this. I would rather make all champs regardless of zone level unable to be killed by that solo lvl 80 that is just trying to be a problem for everyone.

You know why the train works? There are no gear checks. There is no meta spec for gear. A lvl 5 character can get the WPs for the train and show up and tag things and its worthwhile in terms of XP, reward and camaraderie. They dont have to join a guild. They dont have to do anything if they dont want to. Its the truest sense of freedom in the whole game.

So these people arent in your guild building your castles. They arent in WvW following your commander tag around. They arent in your world doing your things. Big deal. Put your big boy pants on and move on. We need more people like these, not less. Some of us just want to have fun and if that goes against your ideal way of doing things…maybe you are the one with issues, not us.

JiveTurkey.1763:

My only concern is that if leveling up at higher levels is so tough or dull that one is willing to do the Queensdale train it must be very bad indeed.

Nah at higher levels you have access to dungeons which give around about 50-75% of your exp needed to level per path completion. I suggest finding a guild and doing dungeon runs Dungeons start at lvl 30-35.

Theres also some other ways such as map exploration (theres 5 lvl 1-15 maps), crafting etc which are all decent ways to level, took me 3 weeks to get my first toon to lvl 80 and that was just through map completion.

You’re all missing the point.
QD train perfectly teaches the new players the core mechanic of this game – zerging and mindless button mashing.

Nick.6972:

You’re all missing the point.
QD train perfectly teaches the new players the core mechanic of this game – zerging and mindless button mashing.

That ISN’T the core mechanic of the game, though. That is the shell that remains after you’ve already depleted the fun content of the game and have nothing left to do.

That’s right. There’s also stacking.
My bad.

to be fair it is the core mechanic of the open world content now. Thank you megaserver.

I don’t have any of these problems. The only thing I stack is bleeds, because Warrior Sword+Shield lacks attack versatility

I am pretty sure anet know about these zerg train. Queensdale train was nerfed, just not as badly as Frostgorge.

You think Queensdale train is hateful? These hating on zerg train is just as bad, people derailing it just because they can. They want it nerf because people get easy loot.

What is this nonsense about protecting newbies from hateful speeches? It is everywhere in this game.

You get kicked out of dungeon because you are low level, aren’t running zerk or having the right build. People in pvp and wvw telling you how your build suck and how you need to learn to play. People on map chat shouting at noobs ruining their world events. Let’s disable local and map chat while we are at this.

@Wasbunny & Astralporing -

All good arguments tbh.. and some of which I agree on, but for me the issue with the QD train isn’t what amount of or level of loot can be farmed, its the fact that on such a low level starter maps ANET actually felt having soo many champs are needed and on such a ridiculous short timer rotation … not sure how many MMO’s I have played where dropping straight into game gave me the benefit of hiding in a 50man zerg for hours and hours until I had reached max level and a whole host of easy farm shinnies before moving onto other maps.
Surely it would be better to input some better quality small group content dotted around maps for fun loot and challenge… maps filled with a mass zerg chasing bosses over and over that has no real place in the grand scheme of things but especially on starter maps, the way ANET have implemented this hash is just a toxic outburst waiting to happen and yes it likely will happen right at the beginning of a players gaming experience no matter how small a proportion of new players exist these days.

Orr train is at least placed in a higher level zone where players have already had a large chance to learn and adjust to the game, its mechanics, the content and what to expect on each map… having so many champs and thus players herded into one zones is imo ludicrous.. thin the champs out to exist across all maps, even it means raising the loot level on them but take them off a map flip cycle timer by reducing their respawn timers or place a loot lockout for “X” hours.. .. this way players still get a half decent drop on a champ, they move around maps so all maps feel alive at times and there will be less requirement for 50+ zergs running across a single map relentlessly.

It’s the same on other maps. You can do champ train on other maps too. People just like to group in queensdale since there isn’t enough players to spread out that much.

People were doing the kissex hill train before the queensdale train happens. People will always follow some sort of mindless level grind.

The reward isn’t even that good. I just do map completion and I can go from lvl27-80 in 35 hours. Which is comparable to queensdale train.

What happen to people should play how they want to? People join zerg train voluntarily. Do we need to implement 10 hours of mandatory tutorial training for newbies to teach them how to play? Open world Pve is EASY MODE, you can kill stuff and get to level 80 by auto attacking things to death.

Azhure.1857:

I’m only speaking for myself here – but when I feel the need to derail the QD train (whether I act on that feeling or otherwise) it isn’t because of a “dev post or video”, its my own interpretation that what I see happening is horribly wrong.

And this type of behaviour (actively trying to destroy the fun of group of people that offend you simply by playing the game differently) is actually far more detrimental to the community than what you are trying to stop. Even assuming that the trains are detrimental to the community in any way, which is not so certain.

In regards to the comment that other starter zones don’t have a champ train, I would like to point out that Caledon does indeed have a champ train cycle, though it is not as popular (probably just because most people aren’t aware I guess).

Edit: Or at least it did. I haven’t checked since the 15th to see if all 5 stops are still champs. I don’t recall if all of them where events. I know at least 2 of them where.

People do these trains because they can.

And they can because champions, unlike other content with guaranteed rewards, give rewards every time.

Why did people repeat CoF1 over and over?
Why was that an issue?
Why did they had to fix that issue?

These champion trains are not very different.

You have to go find another jumping puzzle, or do a different dungeon path, or a different tier of fractals, or kill a different world boss, but you can kill a champion over and over and they will always drop a bag.

And people stuck in these trains do not realize that you would get more and better rewards in less time just by going to a train in the Edge of the Mists (bags are ALWAYS exotic, and you get all 3 ascended materials currently available), and there you would also help your world increasing the chances of getting some supplies to your world’s Borderlands, and also get WXP. All in one.

They didn’t fix it by removing champions and decreasing their rewards. That was an incredibly absurd decision. Because people won’t stop doing it, and they will do it more because it gives less rewards. It effectively tells players: “We want you to stop exploring and start grinding”.

They should have, instead, added more champions, increased their difficulty and rewards the higher their level, but make them repeatable only once a day, or even once a week.

Instead killing the same champion 40 times and get 30 crappy rewards, you’d kill it 1 time, get an acceptable reward and go find a different one. And there will always be another one if there’s enough champions as there were before they removed several of them.

Tuntz.8953:

[…]

And who defines what is/isn’t acceptable ? You ?

The design. The open world maps are obviously designed to be explored, that’s why they are called “explorable zones”. If you only kill 4 things over and over, you are not traveling the world and exploring at all. You are stuck in a grindy merry-go-round.

Thats why farmodromes like the Queen’s Pavillion and the Mad King’s Labyrinth are so bad. They give players really, rally bad habits that do not fit the design of the rest of the world, and must be reworked when they reappear to have purposes, objectives and direction like the Nightmare Tower.

Sturmruger.3920:

I disagree with the perceived need to eliminate the trains. In fact I would like to see trains in every map. Queensdale is popular because it feels alive. The train is part of the reason for that. Instead of trying to make yet another dead zone, Anet should look at why Queensdale IS alive.

Firstly the issue here is not “all trains”, its the QD train. Please don’t lump them all together like they’re the same and use it like a shield to protect your argument. Secondly, and I can’t believe I’m going to say this, but none of the starter maps feel anything less than “alive” thanks to the megaserver system. I’m a regular map completer between all my alts and I can tell you that the other starter zones are enjoyable, mostly, because there are other players on them AND there is no QD train going on. Last I’d say our definitions for “alive” seem to be very different. I equate what you’re talking about to something more along the lines of the undead. Its moving, sure, buts its not alive.

Sturmruger.3920:

Some of us work long hours. Its hard for us to get involved in any kind of guild or dungeon running. What we want to do is spend that hour or two having fun. We dont want a grind. We dont want to plug in to a second job. The train IS fun. Odd as it may seem one of my favorite parts of it is the pause waiting for boar. All kinds of silliness goes on there.

…. You “don’t want a grind”? … I have no words.

Sturmruger.3920:

The people that run the train work together to accomplish something they would otherwise be unable to do.

Common now.. We are talking about incredibly low level champions that can be easily killed by three to four people. Do you REALLY need a 50 man blob of people of ANY level just accomplish such a feat? Not really.

And another thing, this thread is only meant for the QD train. I’m not trying to stop ALL the trains. Just ones that would be in starter zones. I miss the various trains in Kessex Hills and the other higher level zones.
Yes, there are not a whole lot of new players, the older ones WAY out balance this. But that does not mean that the actual new players need to be subjected to the train mentality as soon as possible. Too many times i get partied up with someone who i watch just stands there spamming abilities and dies in dungeons when a quick double tap or a press of their Dodge Roll button would have saved their life. Its a core mechanic of the game that CANNOT be taught or learned while zerging. You’re in a zerg and you get downed? No problem bro! The ten people standing on your face will pick you up! That’s great. Now you’re in a dungeon where grouping up can sometimes be a bad idea. People are spread out and if they stop moving to try and revive you because you stood still, didn’t move out of an AOE or dodge an attack, they would die too. Potentially wiping the party.

I know that people are going to get off topic in this thread because it has become full of hate and a spit-swapping-makeout-cage-match, but lets do try to keep it focused on the main point. This is not about all trains. This is about JUST the QD Train. And claiming the ‘play as you want to play’ is not a valid excuse, as that door swings both ways and can be used for the defense of either side.

Sturmruger.3920:

snip

So these people arent in your guild building your castles. They arent in WvW following your commander tag around. They arent in your world doing your things. Big deal. Put your big boy pants on and move on. We need more people like these, not less. Some of us just want to have fun and if that goes against your ideal way of doing things…maybe you are the one with issues, not us.

You need to read the whole thread. You’ll notice the most reasonable of us aren’t against the train as an activity, but the kind of behavior that it seems to trigger in some players who run it. Also, the counter behavior triggered in some players who don’t run trains. There’s conflict. There’s offensive map chat. And that IS a problem.

Again, the most reasonable amongst us aren’t looking to have the train removed or wanting people to follow us in WvW or any of the other examples. But something definitely needs to be done to clean that map chat.

Keep the train. I’m fine with it. I think players should be able to do what they want and find fun. Insults and disrespecting behavior, however, aren’t ok.

Sturmruger.3920:

The people that run the train work together to accomplish something they would otherwise be unable to do.

I’ve soloed every starting area champion excepting Horace with level 11-20 characters of all professions and races.

And for Horace I only need 2 other players to rotate taking his attention and the occasional revive, because his deadly Flame Bursts can quickly take out anyone who goes solo against him… well, except mesmers. With those you sometimes manage against him if you use “switcheroo” tactics so he doesn’t go for you.

I agree – get rid of QD train. BRING BACK EMBERFARM

This train only needs to be moved to another map, being in the starting zone of the most played race will only serve to make new players into brainless zergs (zergs have brain to begin with?).

Astralporing.1957:

Azhure.1857:

I’m only speaking for myself here – but when I feel the need to derail the QD train (whether I act on that feeling or otherwise) it isn’t because of a “dev post or video”, its my own interpretation that what I see happening is horribly wrong.

And this type of behaviour (actively trying to destroy the fun of group of people that offend you simply by playing the game differently) is actually far more detrimental to the community than what you are trying to stop. Even assuming that the trains are detrimental to the community in any way, which is not so certain.

I’m not hiding behind a mask here, Astral. Nor am I “destroying the fun” of a group because said group has personally offended ME. If you want to stay in denial over the fact that the QD train produces a lot of hate, that there really isn’t ANYTHING wrong with it, that this thread hasn’t covered some very valid issues — Then be my guest. Can’t stop you.

Also please don’t assume I’m one of those people that logs online each day with the full intent of derailing the QD train. Like I’m some evil kitten that just gets her kicks off of doing just that. When I have to be in the zone, and trust me I don’t like it when I have to because of the QD train, THATS when I see bullkitten and have to act on it sometimes. Nor am I the only one! You can dust the problems the QD train has under the rug, if you like, just to focus on those of us that can’t just stand by.

Truly don’t care at this point. If my actions help to draw attention to the problem, whether I somehow get a ban or not, then I’m doing good. That atmosphere doesn’t belong in a STARTER ZONE.

Yes, you can argue that my approach isn’t the best. That I’m only adding to the “toxicity” that so many people have talked about so far. You prolly don’t even care that I agree with you on that front. shrugs So I would challenge you to tell me a better way. To tell me how just standing by and saying/doing nothing when I see a group of players, who are “just having fun”, flame down new or unaware players as if they are somehow entitled to behave that way. Behavior which is a regular occurrence in Queensdale.

Oh and if all you can come back with is a … “Well…. your behavior isn’t any better.” I’ll just respond to it early.

Pathetic.

Again another Pro-Queensdale Train player that is lumping the QD train with ALL trains just to further their own argument, so that those of us that are against it alone are instead seen as anti-train all together. Not the case, tyvm. I don’t log into Frostgorge Sound with a feeling of revulsion, like I do Queensdale. Or WvW K-trains. Or EotM. Or Cursed Shore.

Wasbunny.6531:

Azhure.1857:

tigirius.9014:

Azhure.1857:

Wasbunny.6531:

The danger is that new players coming into the game will end up with a shallow understanding of the game and thus share your opinion.

Without the crutch of a champ train leveling experience most players find out there is a lot more than just pressing 1 to the game. If that’s all they see then it’s possible, like you, to think that’s all there is.

+1

We should fear for the future of this game if that is acceptable to anyone.

Unfortunately when you look at progression that is all there is to the future of the game until they take the time change it. I’m speaking of course of Ascended gear end game crafting.

We’re not all so jaded and dispirited by the lack of new content that we can forget what it was like during launch, are we? I loved those days (yes, even with all the bugs) because it was a new game to me. I don’t know if I could say that if I were a new player starting in Queensdale today.

I would not wish a new player to experience this first thing into his/her new game. Is that so bad?

The problem was there was no other reward besides the personal thrill of besting them and the knowledge gained. So in the end the champs were mainly ignored & avoided. This led (unfortunately imo) to champ boxes being added as guaranteed drops and shortly thereafter, champ trains. The champ boxes giving level appropriate loot no matter what made it an obvious choice and ‘path of least resistance’ for a lot of players just looking for loot.

So I think if they just brought something like that back and the rewards were at the right level, a lot of Queensdale champ train runners would be encouraged to run on that map/instance for the higher reward but higher risk. Maybe even making open world low level champions a more rare and random occurrence.

Which was my original point entirely. Until they make some fundamental changes to the rewards/combat systems in this game it’s going to be like this and stopping the train because you just feel like interrupting people (not you but the OP) is not only trolling it’s rude.

I know for a fact that not all people are in QD for the rewards as well, they are there to complete their monthly which happened to me last month, some griefer decided it was okay to just hang out in the bandit cave over and over again killing the bandit wasting people’s time. That’s how I see the OP he’s griefing people and in any other game title he’d be banned hands down but it’s tolerated in this one for some reason.

I really don’t understand why people are complaining more about the play style choices of each other over the constant abuse towards players that the champ train has brought to Queensdale map chat.

Someone killing a champ and not on the train is not a troll or a griefer. They are playing the game in a way that the game allows.

A bunch of people running to get to a champ on time is also not trolling or grieving. They are playing the game in a way that the games allows also.

People speaking in map chat, and calling other people the R-Word or the F-Word or whatever, this is the real problem of the Champ Train, and it’s getting very, very nasty out there some of the chat. Especially weekends. It’s absolutely appalling some of the words people say to each other over one champion.

It’s a terrible example to set for new players. They buy the game, load their human character. Successfully destroy the Earth Elemental, and then bam.

“Train?” “Oak” “Someone already killed it.” “R*****s!” followed by more constant arguing over almost nothing. Perhaps 3 silver worth of loot that you can get back anyway.

Yes – people have the right to block people for abusive language and report. That option is there. But it should not be the case where in a game that is otherwise head and shoulders above the rest when it comes to open-play community and friendly and co-operative play, that someone has to spend at least once or twice a day reporting someone for something.

Please, end the champ train, for both side’s sake!

CaptnRio.2705:

Sturmruger.3920:

The people that run the train work together to accomplish something they would otherwise be unable to do.

Common now.. We are talking about incredibly low level champions that can be easily killed by three to four people. Do you REALLY need a 50 man blob of people of ANY level just accomplish such a feat? Not really.

And another thing, this thread is only meant for the QD train. I’m not trying to stop ALL the trains. Just ones that would be in starter zones. I miss the various trains in Kessex Hills and the other higher level zones.
Yes, there are not a whole lot of new players, the older ones WAY out balance this. But that does not mean that the actual new players need to be subjected to the train mentality as soon as possible. Too many times i get partied up with someone who i watch just stands there spamming abilities and dies in dungeons when a quick double tap or a press of their Dodge Roll button would have saved their life. Its a core mechanic of the game that CANNOT be taught or learned while zerging. You’re in a zerg and you get downed? No problem bro! The ten people standing on your face will pick you up! That’s great. Now you’re in a dungeon where grouping up can sometimes be a bad idea. People are spread out and if they stop moving to try and revive you because you stood still, didn’t move out of an AOE or dodge an attack, they would die too. Potentially wiping the party.

I know that people are going to get off topic in this thread because it has become full of hate and a spit-swapping-makeout-cage-match, but lets do try to keep it focused on the main point. This is not about all trains. This is about JUST the QD Train. And claiming the ‘play as you want to play’ is not a valid excuse, as that door swings both ways and can be used for the defense of either side.

Why would people in QD train need to learn how to dodge in a dungeon? If they have to learn how to dodge in harder content, they should learn it there, it has nothing to do with QD train. QD train have no need for “Learn to play” mentality. We have no need for your speed run, Experienced, zerg or kicked in QD train. Your reasoning is beyond me.

Saylu.8271:

Why would people in QD train need to learn how to dodge in a dungeon? If they have to learn how to dodge in harder content, they should learn it there, it has nothing to do with QD train. QD train have no need for “Learn to play” mentality. We have no need for your speed run, Experienced, zerg or kicked in QD train. Your reasoning is beyond me.

The OP’s reasoning is that it doesn’t belong in a starter zone. A zone where new players log in and get a first impression of the game. An impression that mindlessly zerging, not learning proper game mechanics, and not ever getting in the way of said zerg is what one HAS to learn.

Its fine if you don’t like a “learn to play” mentality — just gtfo of a starter zone then.

psyckos.6893:

DaShi.1368:

People should go do the Frostgorge train instead…oh wait.

It’s still running strong. Didn’t take long to figure out the new order.

right – and thus far, much less toxic than QD… minus the occasional kitten.

even the order didn’t change except for looping back to the trio.

Azhure.1857:

Saylu.8271:

Why would people in QD train need to learn how to dodge in a dungeon? If they have to learn how to dodge in harder content, they should learn it there, it has nothing to do with QD train. QD train have no need for “Learn to play” mentality. We have no need for your speed run, Experienced, zerg or kicked in QD train. Your reasoning is beyond me.

The OP’s reasoning is that it doesn’t belong in a starter zone. A zone where new players log in and get a first impression of the game. An impression that mindlessly zerging, not learning proper game mechanics, and not ever getting in the way of said zerg is what one HAS to learn.

Its fine if you don’t like a “learn to play” mentality — just gtfo of a starter zone then.

I would argue that its nature of being easy and rewarding fit in a starter zone. This is why people from Lv 1 -80 are all gathered there. Zerging is very much part of the game, there is no reason why you should hide it.

arkealia.2713:

This train only needs to be moved to another map, being in the starting zone of the most played race will only serve to make new players into brainless zergs (zergs have brain to begin with?).

Well “the whole game is endgame” so why keep new players from zerging?

Azhure.1857:

So I would challenge you to tell me a better way. To tell me how just standing by and saying/doing nothing when I see a group of players, who are “just having fun”, flame down new or unaware players as if they are somehow entitled to behave that way. Behavior which is a regular occurrence in Queensdale.

Me, personally, i often point out to such people that the game is for everyone. If that results in more flames, i report them. The same, by the way, as when i see any vocal “anti-trainers”.

I don’t consider myself a “po-train”. I don’t like them, and i don’t run them – for me they are boring beyond belief. I just (as i have mentioned in the previous post) consider the people that think they know better how the game should be played as extremely destructive force. The most common solution of such people is “killl x activity”. They rarely try to actually improve the game.

Queensdale train actually exist because before it there was a loud group that did exactly the same for every other farming spot. And the toxicity argument is usually smoke screen where the real reason is “we can’t have people getting stuff in this game if i am too lazy for even running with a train, not mentioning all the better ways” (though i must admit it doesn’t seem so in your case).

If you really want the QD train gone from the starter zone, why not (like, for example, Wasbunny a page or two before) propose to make it so that those people will want to leave on their own, instead of trying to force them to move?
Yes, that is much harder than simply shouting “Kill the train”. It is also far better for the community.

KarateKid.5648:

psyckos.6893:

DaShi.1368:

People should go do the Frostgorge train instead…oh wait.

It’s still running strong. Didn’t take long to figure out the new order.

right – and thus far, much less toxic than QD… minus the occasional kitten.

even the order didn’t change except for looping back to the trio.

What is the order of the Frostgorge train now?

Astralporing.1957:

If you really want the QD train gone from the starter zone, why not (like, for example, Wasbunny a page or two before) propose to make it so that those people will want to leave on their own, instead of trying to force them to move?
Yes, that is much harder than simply shouting “Kill the train”. It is also far better for the community.

If you’ve read previous posts you would see that I’ve said more than just “Kill the train”. I’m a supporter of its relocation. Though honestly if its supporters moved to another zone (not a starter zone, please), then it wouldn’t be the QD train anymore now would it? In a sense that is the same thing as killing it.

Would be wonderful if we could just “lure them away with a carrot”, towards greener pastures. Absolutely. But as there are already other options for Dailies/Monthlies, champ farming, and general “no thought required” gameplay systems in place and they don’t have any interest in leaving for those. Why would it be any different now?

Because its better for the community if we just say “Please?” and/or just ignore its existence?

Lazuli.2098:

What is the order of the Frostgorge train now?

I believe it is Wurm-Drake-Troll, with an interruption every 30 minutes for the Trio (Fish, Kodan, Norn).

Azhure.1857:

So I would challenge you to tell me a better way.

While I understand your reasons, counter attacking shouldn’t be an option. You seem to recognize that it only adds to the toxicity – then it IS better to do nothing. Some toxicity is better than more of it.

I’m not gonna tell you to stand idle either. If this is brought up in the official ways to contact staff with enough insistence, I’m sure it’ll get noticed. This thread reached over 200 replies in 24h, it’s probably been noticed already. Valid and reasonable points were made too, and I think that’s our best weapon. That’s why I come back to this thread and dump some more reason and logic into it.

We can also report. Every time it happens, every infractor. We can report as informed players, we can quote where the CoC predicts that such actions are bannable, we can ask that players who are offensive in map chat be treated the same as those who are offensive in whisper.

It might take a long time to see a change, but it’ll happen out of the right measures. And probably still faster than hoping the devs notice the escalating conflict caused by deliberately disrupting a train.

I personally believe that at the end of this (when hopefully a solution that pleases everyone has been reached), it’s better if we can say we made a difference without resorting to something that only increases the one thing we’re criticizing: the toxicity and constant conflict in map chat.

zoejo.2317:

I personally believe that at the end of this (when hopefully a solution that pleases everyone has been reached), it’s better if we can say we made a difference without resorting to something that only increases the one thing we’re criticizing: the toxicity and constant conflict in map chat.

Though it comes to a point where I can only tolerate spending so much time reporting, blocking, or turning off mapchat entirely for so long. I’ve reached breaking point.

I did find your entire post calming and optimistic however – and I thank you for it.

I feel like threads like this have popped up before. Just leave it be. If people want to run the train, let them. At the same time, if other people want to fight the champions out of order, they can do that too (even if it is annoying sometimes). They may or may not be trolling (no way to know for certain unless they say it), but that’s not really worth getting all toxic over (they can’t stick around forever, can they?).

Then again…I almost never go to Queensdale outside of map completion, so maybe I’m too disconnected from this to understand it. Meh.

Nowadays I’ve moved to running around edge of the mists for my mindless zerg, but I do wish they’d left FG train at least doable and nerfed QD more, that way trains would’ve been moreso something lv80s do out of boredom.. Oh well, at least now with everyone at QD the early tier crafting mat prices should drop, right? (I think raising t6 mat prices was a possible reason someone said FG was nerfed?)

Nilkemia.8507:

I feel like threads like this have popped up before. Just leave it be. If people want to run the train, let them. At the same time, if other people want to fight the champions out of order, they can do that too (even if it is annoying sometimes). They may or may not be trolling (no way to know for certain unless they say it), but that’s not really worth getting all toxic over (they can’t stick around forever, can they?).

Then again…I almost never go to Queensdale outside of map completion, so maybe I’m too disconnected from this to understand it. Meh.

We do let them run trains. Players can do whatever they want. I don’t care – or I do care, but I care that everyone has that option without being shot down and harassed for it. Which is what’s happening to new (or old, doesn’t matter) players who, unaware, commit the sin of killing a champion out of order. It results in abusive language and insults in chat more often than not – and if I report that kind of language in a whisper, why would I tolerate it in map chat, when tons of more people have to read it and some of them brand new players trying to get a feel of the community?

It’s not the train, it’s the entitled attitude. It’s clear cut wrong, even according to the code of conduct this game’s based on.

I sometimes go to Oak just before SB time. One or two others are there, Oak is up, and I say in Map chat – “Wait for the train before attacking Oak”. Usually people listen until some idiot comes along and piles into Oak. But we just wait for the train anyway and the idiot hardly makes a dent in it, and everyone gets to kill it.

Azhure.1857:

zoejo.2317:

I personally believe that at the end of this (when hopefully a solution that pleases everyone has been reached), it’s better if we can say we made a difference without resorting to something that only increases the one thing we’re criticizing: the toxicity and constant conflict in map chat.

Though it comes to a point where I can only tolerate spending so much time reporting, blocking, or turning off mapchat entirely for so long. I’ve reached breaking point.

I did find your entire post calming and optimistic however – and I thank you for it.

Yes, I understand that sometimes it’s hardly a choice. And that it comes from a deep sense of justice

[quote=4000729;CaptnRio.2705: the QD Train is a bad thing is because it is in a starting area..<SNIP>I can only imagine what this would be like to a player who logged on their first day and received this sort of abuse.[/quote]

I’ve had 2 friends try the game and decide NOT to continue because of this exact issue. Elitist trolls running around like a tidal wave with no respect for the events new players are doing. Trains can be fun, but not in starting areas imo.

They should buff dynamic event rewards in the least populated zones so that people leveling alts will be encouraged to play in them, and maybe existing players to play with new ones. I think the dynamic event system is a major bonus for this game, but if 99% of the open world PVE community is fighting champs/world boss or sitting in Vigil Keep, then a lot of those cool ad hoc groups from the early days probably aren’t happening.

I can agree that they should make non-QD trains more profitable, or make systems other than Champ training effective and profitable.

I’m not sure if it was after the last update or slightly before but I was using my mid level necro (30s or 40s) getting champs/ group events / events either for dailies and/or monthlies. I waited and joined the train at the troll. Someone had killed one of the champs before we got to it, not sure if it was the bandit and the oak but definitely the oak. People were milling around and didn’t seem to know what to do. I wasn’t sure either but continued on toward the spider. No one else had followed so after waiting a few moments started in on it alone. Near the end I was barely surviving, down and up, when the rest of the train arrived. I couldn’t understand why no one joined in until I noticed chat. Some of them were upset because I had disrupted the train. Someone defended that some players wanted the challenge of soloing champs. I think they were all waiting for me to be killed and were surprised when I survived. The chat was negative but not really toxic. I don’t know if it has gotten worse since I don’t pay much attention to chat. The most toxic place I’ve been (admittedly not in a long while) is wvw.

EDIT: And if toxicity around new players is really the issue, and not just an excuse for being a bully, then we need to clean up our act in all the areas since the new messed up trait unlocks are pushing new players into higher levels earlier than they normally would be.

Azhure.1857:

Lazuli.2098:

What is the order of the Frostgorge train now?

I believe it is Wurm-Drake-Troll, with an interruption every 30 minutes for the Trio (Fish, Kodan, Norn).

and the occasional quaggan right after the broodmom if he’s not saved from the svanir along the way. Worst I’ve seen was the occasional kitten (the d-word, if censored) when we see Quaggan get saved. That’s totally acceptable in my mind… about 80% less ranting!

This is the order DragonBrand ran all the time, so really no change… there IS the occasional standing still waiting on spawn here and there, but not horrid.

I can’t run too many of these – just gets boring. I can get between 1 and 2 Quaggans before I have to go do something else.

Who knew quaggans would become a unit of measure for time?

Lazuli.2098:

… The most toxic place I’ve been (admittedly not in a long while) is wvw.

Oh just wait – go hang out in Cursed Shore and read chat. On a daily basis, some are getting to be more and more like the Faro dealer in “Tombstone”. (youtube’s got it – language NSFW)

Where’s Kurt Russel when you need him?

I added this to the end of my earlier post: “And if toxicity around new players is really the issue, and not just an excuse for being a bully, then we need to clean up our act in all the areas since the new messed up trait unlocks are pushing new players into higher levels earlier than they normally would be.”

I run high-level toons with the QD train fairly often, but I do wish it was elsewhere. It’s not a matter of the spectacular loot (mostly blues/greens with the very occasional yellow) or the karma/XP (meh), and the money is a joke. I run it because the drops can be salvaged for the base mats, which are almost always worth more than the items themselves: for the most part you get whatever level your salvage kit is capable of. It’s just less time consuming than trying to figure out where the gathering nodes got moved to each day. As others have mentioned, it’s also a good way to get certain dailies & monthlies knocked out quickly. I love the idea of bringing back the pavilion and if that happened I would abandon QD and not look back, but for now there are a lot of reasons why it persists:

• The FGS train isn’t quite as stable and predictable as it used to be since the order was switched around.
• World boss runs and EotM can be hard for lower-spec PC’s to handle even at minimum settings.
• Many players either aren’t in Orr yet or dislike it for other reasons.
• LFG dungeon runs can be really particular if you’re not running one of the “approved” classes/builds.

Yes the QD train is dull and the rewards aren’t great, but there’s a low bar to entry and depending on what you’re after, the rewards are reliable and roughly proportional to the effort. Yes there are a few jerks who will get abusive in map chat if their precious rotation gets broken, but they are definitely a minority and usually someone will tell them to chill out. That said, people who deliberately mess with the rotation are kidding themselves if they think they’re accomplishing anything other than being minor annoyances for a short time. The economic incentives of the train guarantee that it will continue as soon as they move on, as if they had never been there in the first place.

tl;dr: ANet’s staff economist needs to look more at the overall incentives. This isn’t a dev or even a player problem, it’s just the natural result of the economy that they’ve deployed.

Teknomancer.4895:

I run high-level toons with the QD train fairly often, but I do wish it was elsewhere. It’s not a matter of the spectacular loot (mostly blues/greens with the very occasional yellow) or the karma/XP (meh), and the money is a joke. I run it because the drops can be salvaged for the base mats, which are almost always worth more than the items themselves: for the most part you get whatever level your salvage kit is capable of. It’s just less time consuming than trying to figure out where the gathering nodes got moved to each day. As others have mentioned, it’s also a good way to get certain dailies & monthlies knocked out quickly. I love the idea of bringing back the pavilion and if that happened I would abandon QD and not look back, but for now there are a lot of reasons why it persists:

• The FGS train isn’t quite as stable and predictable as it used to be since the order was switched around.
• World boss runs and EotM can be hard for lower-spec PC’s to handle even at minimum settings.
• Many players either aren’t in Orr yet or dislike it for other reasons.
• LFG dungeon runs can be really particular if you’re not running one of the “approved” classes/builds.

Yes the QD train is dull and the rewards aren’t great, but there’s a low bar to entry and depending on what you’re after, the rewards are reliable and roughly proportional to the effort. Yes there are a few jerks who will get abusive in map chat if their precious rotation gets broken, but they are definitely a minority and usually someone will tell them to chill out. That said, people who deliberately mess with the rotation are kidding themselves if they think they’re accomplishing anything other than being minor annoyances for a short time. The economic incentives of the train guarantee that it will continue as soon as they move on, as if they had never been there in the first place.

tl;dr: ANet’s staff economist needs to look more at the overall incentives. This isn’t a dev or even a player problem, it’s just the natural result of the economy that they’ve deployed.

Well said. Totally agree.

I’ve had positive experiences with champ trains, though mainly in Frostgorge. I frequently farm silk at the location the champ quaggan spawns and as soon as I see it I alert mapchat that it’s flopping around out here. I can easily solo it but choose not to since I don’t really care about the loot or challenge and out of respect for other players (the train). Sometimes they say thanks we’re on our way, sometimes they say go ahead and kill it if you want, but thanks for letting us know. I like this.

As far as my experiences are with the FG train at least I don’t have any complaints. I think possibly there are more new players in QD that quickly adopt whatever behavior they see around them, so can rapidly become more toxic. Another reason to incentivize players to champ farm in higher level zones, or even better an area designated as a champ farming instance.

Saylu.8271:

What happen to people should play how they want to? People join zerg train voluntarily. Do we need to implement 10 hours of mandatory tutorial training for newbies to teach them how to play? Open world Pve is EASY MODE, you can kill stuff and get to level 80 by auto attacking things to death.

That play your own way argument works both ways.. with the one difference being you doent find many individuals screaming insults at the train cos they killed the troll out rotation messing up their fun

I really don’t know why this bothers some so much, some times is a good way to help finish your daily or help level a new character.

If I want loot or gold, dungeons & some world bosses are the way to go.