Guild Wars 2

Lambent.6375:

I’d say people who purposely kill champs “out of order” to get retribution on rude people are making the map even more toxic.

You’re not teaching anyone a lesson when you do that, the type of people who get upset over someone randomly killing a champ are already unreasonable people, you’re just going to make them more upset.

Lambent, I do agree that trolling for retribution’s sake is indeed adding toxicity to an already ugly atmosphere. I’ll also admit that I’m guilty of it. No, I’m not happy about it either. However if you use that same logic to anyone witnessing bullying, that they should just let it go because it may make them “more upset”, where would that lead?

Cactus Brawler.7415:

Azhure.1857:

Alexander.5782:

I feel like they could do what they did to the Spider. Downgrade the champions to Elite. Over in Kessex Hills, upgrade a few to Champions. =)

This is a good idea. Remove champions from all 1-15 zones by replacing them with Elites. Just relocate the QD train to Kessex or the like. The train runners can have their mind numbing farm and the starter zones can be free of it.

Why make the 1-15 zones play any differently from the rest of the games, for example take a look at traits, you unlock them at 36 but wait some of them require you to do something many times higher in level.

Or you can pay cash and skill points?

Lucky the train bags drop skill scrolls and coin right?

I do not share your viewpoint on this. You make it sound like Queensdale is the standard for every other map in GW2, that it should be held as the example for new players. Starter zones should be areas for learning the basics of general PvE, gradually learning. Not – Champ Train 101 or bust!

Azhure.1857:

Lambent.6375:

I’d say people who purposely kill champs “out of order” to get retribution on rude people are making the map even more toxic.

You’re not teaching anyone a lesson when you do that, the type of people who get upset over someone randomly killing a champ are already unreasonable people, you’re just going to make them more upset.

Lambent, I do agree that trolling for retribution’s sake is indeed adding toxicity to an already ugly atmosphere. I’ll also admit that I’m guilty of it. No, I’m not happy about it either. However if you use that same logic to anyone witnessing bullying, that they should just let it go because it may make them “more upset”, where would that lead?

Bullying certainly isn’t cool, regardless of who’s doing it. If I’m in QD helping my brothers out, for instance (because I recently got them into the game), and we get to the Troll, you bet I’m going to help them defeat it. I’m not doing it out of spite for the “train”, I’m doing it because they need help, and want to defeat it.

It would be wrong of me to start shouting at someone that “You’re playing the game wrong” because they killed a Champion out of order.

Azhure.1857:

Cactus Brawler.7415:

Azhure.1857:

Alexander.5782:

I feel like they could do what they did to the Spider. Downgrade the champions to Elite. Over in Kessex Hills, upgrade a few to Champions. =)

This is a good idea. Remove champions from all 1-15 zones by replacing them with Elites. Just relocate the QD train to Kessex or the like. The train runners can have their mind numbing farm and the starter zones can be free of it.

Why make the 1-15 zones play any differently from the rest of the games, for example take a look at traits, you unlock them at 36 but wait some of them require you to do something many times higher in level.

Or you can pay cash and skill points?

Lucky the train bags drop skill scrolls and coin right?

I do not share your viewpoint on this. You make it sound like Queensdale is the standard for every other map in GW2, that it should be held as the example for new players. Starter zones should be areas for learning the basics of general PvE, gradually learning. Not – Champ Train 101 or bust!

What standards of PVE? You mean auto-attacking mobs that are no longer a threat because everything got a nerf to make up for the fact players have less stats till end game?

Or you mean the stack and auto-attack basics of PVE which you learn in the train anyway and will use in everything from dungeons to the latest living story content?

It’s interesting to see the comments posted by people who “loathe” the QD train and go out of their way to disrupt it to make people mad. And yet, they seem to spend a great deal of time in that zone. I avoid that zone, not because of the train, but because of the people who instigate trouble and gleefully announce their bad behavior in map chat and then verbally attack or mock people in the train.

The train expects to be derailed around SB time because people sporting legendaries and Commander tags head straight to the Champ Oakheart. It’s not the train that starts the insults, it’s the bullies that come in to kill SB for his great loot. But they don’t care about new players being exposed to that.

Cactus Brawler.7415:

Azhure.1857:

Cactus Brawler.7415:

Azhure.1857:

Alexander.5782:

I feel like they could do what they did to the Spider. Downgrade the champions to Elite. Over in Kessex Hills, upgrade a few to Champions. =)

This is a good idea. Remove champions from all 1-15 zones by replacing them with Elites. Just relocate the QD train to Kessex or the like. The train runners can have their mind numbing farm and the starter zones can be free of it.

Why make the 1-15 zones play any differently from the rest of the games, for example take a look at traits, you unlock them at 36 but wait some of them require you to do something many times higher in level.

Or you can pay cash and skill points?

Lucky the train bags drop skill scrolls and coin right?

I do not share your viewpoint on this. You make it sound like Queensdale is the standard for every other map in GW2, that it should be held as the example for new players. Starter zones should be areas for learning the basics of general PvE, gradually learning. Not – Champ Train 101 or bust!

What standards of PVE? You mean auto-attacking mobs that are no longer a threat because everything got a nerf to make up for the fact players have less stats till end game?

Or you mean the stack and auto-attack basics of PVE which you learn in the train anyway and will use in everything from dungeons to the latest living story content?

The danger is that new players coming into the game will end up with a shallow understanding of the game and thus share your opinion.

Without the crutch of a champ train leveling experience most players find out there is a lot more than just pressing 1 to the game. If that’s all they see then it’s possible, like you, to think that’s all there is.

Wasbunny.6531:

The danger is that new players coming into the game will end up with a shallow understanding of the game and thus share your opinion.

Without the crutch of a champ train leveling experience most players find out there is a lot more than just pressing 1 to the game. If that’s all they see then it’s possible, like you, to think that’s all there is.

+1

We should fear for the future of this game if that is acceptable to anyone.

Azhure.1857:

Wasbunny.6531:

The danger is that new players coming into the game will end up with a shallow understanding of the game and thus share your opinion.

Without the crutch of a champ train leveling experience most players find out there is a lot more than just pressing 1 to the game. If that’s all they see then it’s possible, like you, to think that’s all there is.

+1

We should fear for the future of this game if that is acceptable to anyone.

Unfortunately when you look at progression that is all there is to the future of the game until they take the time change it. I’m speaking of course of Ascended gear end game crafting.

I mean just look at the latest patch, even with a nerf, people are still demanding everyone be Zerker or go home. Until they make some serious and fundamental changes to combat it’s going to be a zerg fest with no cerebral functions whatsoever in PVE.

They should move all Champion Trains to high level zones. Maybe low level zones should have 1 champion each or something, but not enough for a train.

I do wonder why the loot bags drop loot based on your character level rather than the Champion’s level.

I think a better design would have been to tie the loot level to the Champ, that way you could run a train on different maps based on what kind of materials you were trying to farm.

Low on Linen? Head over to Iron Marches! Need some Jute? Queensdale for you!

tigirius.9014:

Azhure.1857:

Wasbunny.6531:

The danger is that new players coming into the game will end up with a shallow understanding of the game and thus share your opinion.

Without the crutch of a champ train leveling experience most players find out there is a lot more than just pressing 1 to the game. If that’s all they see then it’s possible, like you, to think that’s all there is.

+1

We should fear for the future of this game if that is acceptable to anyone.

Unfortunately when you look at progression that is all there is to the future of the game until they take the time change it. I’m speaking of course of Ascended gear end game crafting.

We’re not all so jaded and dispirited by the lack of new content that we can forget what it was like during launch, are we? I loved those days (yes, even with all the bugs) because it was a new game to me. I don’t know if I could say that if I were a new player starting in Queensdale today.

I would not wish a new player to experience this first thing into his/her new game. Is that so bad?

arjeidi.2690:

Bloodstealer.5978:

Scrambles.2604:

Foosnark.1784:

Oh, and I love exploring and finding stuff, whether it’s a sarcastic NPC or a beautiful view or a champion event.

And this thread made me realize I just keep map chat turned off. I wonder if that gives me a more positive outlook toward the game and its player base?

I too have found peace in running combat log instead of chat. Though i miss guild chat messages…but that’s a UI problem.

Otherwise, while i have seen vitriol in the QD map chat, more often than not, it’s either quiet or just the occasional “train?” followed by a map location. I see the same amount of “toxicity” in QD as i do in WvW, dungeons, and LS.

Doesn’t that statement in itself tell you something of the toxic nature of trains… those same players take that same self righteous attitude into other facets of the game .. hence the word – Toxoc.

Nope. You have toxic pvp’ers who never/hardly ever train. Not the train’s fault. You have WvW’ers with toxic attitudes as well. Again, not the train’s fault. You have dungeon-runners with toxic attitudes. Not the train’s fault.

Why do some people have toxic attitudes? Because they’re human, thats all there is to it. They’re equally toxic about tv shows or music or sports or any other thing in their life. Its how they are.

You get rid of the QD train, you just relocate the toxicity. Maybe thats a goal, but I promise you it won’t be gone at all. So those new players will see toxic chat in a 25-35 zone, or a 50-60, or wherever. Please rationally explain how toxic behavior in one map is better than toxic behavior on another?

The issue is the attitudes, not the activity. I’m sorry to be insulting but if you think trains cause the behavior, you should try thinking about the issue for more than 5 seconds.

You can be as insulting as you like, I got pretty thick skin.. so go all out and hell for leather if that’s what floats ya boat.

Nowhere did I say that trains were solely responsible for creating toxicity in the game.. but that they themselves create a toxic atmosphere when something happens that effects their own perceived ownership of the rotations.
Of course those players and their attitudes will move if trains are closed or nerfed.. like you say it’s all about the individual and the situation at that very time that has the potential to ignite the spark, which is directly agreeing with something you appear to have an issue not agreeing to, namely PvP and WvW.. again nowhere did I say trains create toxicity in those facets.. .. but if you wanna try to deny those elements aren’t carried over into those areas then from players within many of the trains , well, be my guest play the hypocrisy game all you want. Just to be sure you understand though, some of us who have been around since the start might have different opinions, you just seem to have trouble sticking to one you agree with.

L2Read more than 5 seconds before jumping in.

Cactus Brawler.7415:

Azhure.1857:

Cactus Brawler.7415:

Azhure.1857:

Alexander.5782:

I feel like they could do what they did to the Spider. Downgrade the champions to Elite. Over in Kessex Hills, upgrade a few to Champions. =)

This is a good idea. Remove champions from all 1-15 zones by replacing them with Elites. Just relocate the QD train to Kessex or the like. The train runners can have their mind numbing farm and the starter zones can be free of it.

Why make the 1-15 zones play any differently from the rest of the games, for example take a look at traits, you unlock them at 36 but wait some of them require you to do something many times higher in level.

Or you can pay cash and skill points?

Lucky the train bags drop skill scrolls and coin right?

I do not share your viewpoint on this. You make it sound like Queensdale is the standard for every other map in GW2, that it should be held as the example for new players. Starter zones should be areas for learning the basics of general PvE, gradually learning. Not – Champ Train 101 or bust!

What standards of PVE? You mean auto-attacking mobs that are no longer a threat because everything got a nerf to make up for the fact players have less stats till end game?

Or you mean the stack and auto-attack basics of PVE which you learn in the train anyway and will use in everything from dungeons to the latest living story content?

This unfortunately holds merit, yes the trains can often take an overly aggressive view on players not wanting to conform to their ways.. but at the end of the day ANET have developed the game in such a way that it means this type of zerg auto #11111 gameplay has become the norm, from openworld events to world bosses. dungeons and WvW and yes even in PvP now. Its not just player attitude at fault its also very much a lack of creative development within the content itself and the mechanics surrounding much of it.

Azhure.1857:

Lambent.6375:

I’d say people who purposely kill champs “out of order” to get retribution on rude people are making the map even more toxic.

You’re not teaching anyone a lesson when you do that, the type of people who get upset over someone randomly killing a champ are already unreasonable people, you’re just going to make them more upset.

Lambent, I do agree that trolling for retribution’s sake is indeed adding toxicity to an already ugly atmosphere. I’ll also admit that I’m guilty of it. No, I’m not happy about it either. However if you use that same logic to anyone witnessing bullying, that they should just let it go because it may make them “more upset”, where would that lead?

I don’t see them as the same, Ideally, when one is responding to bullying, the only one who faces the repercussions for that is the person/people responsible for the bulling.

Trolling the entire champ train for the actions of some people would be the same as (in terms of an entire group of people paying for the actions of a few) someone flooding an entire football locker room as payback for the actions of a few of those players.

I’m guilty of using the train to quickly tie up some daily/monthly stuff. If SB is around I’ll jump in that zerg too.

When I’m passing through QD, I do all I can to help out the low lvl folks I see struggling. I’ve helped kill that Skill Point Bandit guy more than a few times (seriously, the Bandit Queen is easier to take down) so they could pick it up for completion.

I did solo the Bandit Queen once. She spawned right on top of me while I was selling some junk to the merchant up there. I went “WOOPS!” and dodged over the side just ahead of the furious zerg.

Oh forgot. I saw several toons with the ANET shield thing over there heads at the QD Train Stops many times in the weeks just before the patch. I assume that’s what got the poor spider demoted. He was never really a champ anyways.

Azhure.1857:

tigirius.9014:

Azhure.1857:

Wasbunny.6531:

The danger is that new players coming into the game will end up with a shallow understanding of the game and thus share your opinion.

Without the crutch of a champ train leveling experience most players find out there is a lot more than just pressing 1 to the game. If that’s all they see then it’s possible, like you, to think that’s all there is.

+1

We should fear for the future of this game if that is acceptable to anyone.

Unfortunately when you look at progression that is all there is to the future of the game until they take the time change it. I’m speaking of course of Ascended gear end game crafting.

We’re not all so jaded and dispirited by the lack of new content that we can forget what it was like during launch, are we? I loved those days (yes, even with all the bugs) because it was a new game to me. I don’t know if I could say that if I were a new player starting in Queensdale today.

I would not wish a new player to experience this first thing into his/her new game. Is that so bad?

Exactly. Or even before they introduced champ boxes at all. Most level appropriate players would fear / avoid the champs, some brave ones would take them on. High levels would mostly ignore them except to possibly help out someone trying to take them down or to test themselves by soloing the beasts.

Champs were never seen as passive loot bags waiting to be farmed. They were Champions. Open world semi-bosses to act as challenges for 2-5 players. This was a preparation for future boss fights to learn things like boss mechanics and improve profession skill.

The problem was there was no other reward besides the personal thrill of besting them and the knowledge gained. So in the end the champs were mainly ignored & avoided. This led (unfortunately imo) to champ boxes being added as guaranteed drops and shortly thereafter, champ trains. The champ boxes giving level appropriate loot no matter what made it an obvious choice and ‘path of least resistance’ for a lot of players just looking for loot.

I don’t think the answer is to make champ boxes drop zone level loot, since this would concentrate the high levels to a couple areas with little reason to go back to lower level zones. I think the loot just needs to be equal to the challenge to get it.

The one time I really enjoyed joining in on any form of ‘champ train’ was during the Queen’s Jubilee in the Crown Pavilion. There they had four concentrated areas of vets & champions of different sorts with a legendary boss that would spawn in each at regular intervals, usually at least two at once.

It was really challenging, many died over and over trying to farm the champs. Whole groups of high level players would wipe in an area. It was both challenging and rewarding and didn’t negatively effect anyone with negative mapchat or trivializing content. And if you survived the loot was ridiculous, so much so I had to buy an extra bag slot since I was constantly filling my bags mid battle. And with that much loot I had the gold for bigger bags, extra bag slot, extra bank tabs etc.

So I think if they just brought something like that back and the rewards were at the right level, a lot of Queensdale champ train runners would be encouraged to run on that map/instance for the higher reward but higher risk. Maybe even making open world low level champions a more rare and random occurrence.

Yikes that was long, I guess I had more to say than I thought.

Lambent.6375:

Azhure.1857:

Lambent.6375:

I’d say people who purposely kill champs “out of order” to get retribution on rude people are making the map even more toxic.

You’re not teaching anyone a lesson when you do that, the type of people who get upset over someone randomly killing a champ are already unreasonable people, you’re just going to make them more upset.

Lambent, I do agree that trolling for retribution’s sake is indeed adding toxicity to an already ugly atmosphere. I’ll also admit that I’m guilty of it. No, I’m not happy about it either. However if you use that same logic to anyone witnessing bullying, that they should just let it go because it may make them “more upset”, where would that lead?

I don’t see them as the same, Ideally, when one is responding to bullying, the only one who faces the repercussions for that is the person/people responsible for the bulling.

Trolling the entire champ train for the actions of some people would be the same as (in terms of an entire group of people paying for the actions of a few) someone flooding an entire football locker room as payback for the actions of a few of those players.

You make a good point. But from my experience I don’t hear enough from people in the train coming to the defense of players being victimized by other members in said train. It is far too easy to clump a group of people together as a “football team” or “train” if none are being brave enough to step out and do whats right. Outside of people responding to where the train is currently located, or where its going, the majority of chat coming out of QD train is hateful.

Just logged into kill Oak out of sequence. And I feel better for it.

tigirius.9014:

Unfortunately when you look at progression that is all there is to the future of the game until they take the time change it. I’m speaking of course of Ascended gear end game crafting.

Guild Wars 2 isn’t about crafting Ascended gear. What the hell do you think this is? World of Warcraft and its loot treadmill?

Guild Wars 2 is about exploring Tyria, engaging in fun open-air battles with foes across all level zones (I HATE the nerf mobs got, and if it’s a result of the changes to the trait system, then it’s more proof that said system needs to die), finding people to help and form spontaneous groups with, and wiping at world bosses until you learn how to fight them. And getting in costume brawls for the heck of it, and fighting to defend the places you care about from Ghost/Undead/Centaur/Inquest/What-Have-You incursions, and taking back reclaimed areas. And fighting for your server in WvW. And proving the might of your team’s kitten in sPvP.

Ascended gear is just an extra slapped onto everything else.

The train is fine. Leave it alone.

The fact that even though it isn’t as profitable as it once was – as OP has stated – it is still there means that players do it for a reason.

It’s one of the reasons the Queensdale map feels alive unlike other starter areas.

Why do you want to ruin something that people enjoy?

New players don’t even care about the train – a friend recently started and didn’t even realize there was a train going on until i pointed it out.

Some thoughts:

• Every champion in the game is to some degree trivial once more than three players are attacking. Many of them if more than two, or even one.
• There is an in-game tool already for harassment.
• Champ trains are hardly zerging everything in sight
• Deliberately disrupting others’ play (i.e., sabotaging the train) to “get back” at them is no better than harassing players who kill champs out-of-order. Two wrongs…
• There is no learning curve for zerging itself. On the continuum of tricycle-bicycle-unicycle, zerging is crawling with a seat belt
• If ANet agrees to kill trains, it will be because the bad behavior of trainers is generating too many reports, increasing CS work load
• I’ve yet to see any good suggestions on how to “kill” a train. Lengthening event timers pretty much killed most of the events in CS. Reducing champ loot to the point where killing them is not worth it will put champs back where they were before the bags were added, with only a few people bothering to do them. Likewise replacing champs with Elites. Making low level champs drop only low-level loot would be a tacit admission that, “The whole game is endgame.” is now dead. It’s quite a dilemma.

Sartharina.3542:

No it’s not. The developers have outright stated that the Zerging is a problem from both a technical and gameplay standpoint, and are trying to find ways to reduce it without penalizing smaller-scale spontaneous groupings.

Interesting. If you can link a source for that, I’d appreciate it. ANet has advertised GW2 as having a heavy emphasis on large-scale persistent world encounters since the initial information release about the game. If they’re thinking about changing this emphasis I’d like to read the whole post or article.

Sartharina.3542:

tigirius.9014:

Unfortunately when you look at progression that is all there is to the future of the game until they take the time change it. I’m speaking of course of Ascended gear end game crafting.

Guild Wars 2 isn’t about crafting Ascended gear. What the hell do you think this is? World of Warcraft and its loot treadmill?

Guild Wars 2 is about exploring Tyria, engaging in fun open-air battles with foes across all level zones (I HATE the nerf mobs got, and if it’s a result of the changes to the trait system, then it’s more proof that said system needs to die), finding people to help and form spontaneous groups with, and wiping at world bosses until you learn how to fight them. And getting in costume brawls for the heck of it, and fighting to defend the places you care about from Ghost/Undead/Centaur/Inquest/What-Have-You incursions, and taking back reclaimed areas. And fighting for your server in WvW. And proving the might of your team’s kitten in sPvP.

Ascended gear is just an extra slapped onto everything else.

The problem with what you’re saying is this. Although fine on paper your view on the game doesn’t necessarily overlap with everyone else’s.

For me GW2 is about getting all the shinies and getting as much GPH ( gold per hour) as possible.

The experiences you’ve stated above are fun- first couple of times, but once your play time extends from hundreds of hours to thousands you’ll quickly get bored of doing the same content over and over again.
landmass.
How many times can you explore Tyria until it’s boring? We haven’t gotten any new
landmass.

Ultimately most players get to the point when they log on only to get their loot.

The lore was also a big part of the game for me but sadly they’ve killed it completely. ( compare GW2 lore to GW1 lore).

IndigoSundown.5419:

Some thoughts:

• Every champion in the game is to some degree trivial once more than three players are attacking. Many of them if more than two, or even one.
• There is an in-game tool already for harassment.
• Champ trains are hardly zerging everything in sight
• Deliberately disrupting others’ play (i.e., sabotaging the train) to “get back” at them is no better than harassing players who kill champs out-of-order. Two wrongs…
• There is no learning curve for zerging itself. On the continuum of tricycle-bicycle-unicycle, zerging is crawling with a seat belt
• If ANet agrees to kill trains, it will be because the bad behavior of trainers is generating too many reports, increasing CS work load
• I’ve yet to see any good suggestions on how to “kill” a train. Lengthening event timers pretty much killed most of the events in CS. Reducing champ loot to the point where killing them is not worth it will put champs back where they were before the bags were added, with only a few people bothering to do them. Likewise replacing champs with Elites. Making low level champs drop only low-level loot would be a tacit admission that, “The whole game is endgame.” is now dead. It’s quite a dilemma.

Sartharina.3542:

No it’s not. The developers have outright stated that the Zerging is a problem from both a technical and gameplay standpoint, and are trying to find ways to reduce it without penalizing smaller-scale spontaneous groupings.

Interesting. If you can link a source for that, I’d appreciate it. ANet has advertised GW2 as having a heavy emphasis on large-scale persistent world encounters since the initial information release about the game. If they’re thinking about changing this emphasis I’d like to read the whole post or article.

Maybe you missed probably the best example of what Sartharina is talking about… the Watch Knights in the final LS events were patched for that very reason to try and thin out zergs and move it around. Yes it failed miserably as “they did not perceive” the playerbase would play the content out in a zerg fashion even though pretty much every bit of content brought into the game over the last 12+ months was totally zerg friendly … teach pets to act a certain way then suddenly expect it too change in a flash was asking a bit too much in my opinion

Sartharina.3542:

tigirius.9014:

Unfortunately when you look at progression that is all there is to the future of the game until they take the time change it. I’m speaking of course of Ascended gear end game crafting.

Guild Wars 2 isn’t about crafting Ascended gear. What the hell do you think this is? World of Warcraft and its loot treadmill?

Guild Wars 2 is about exploring Tyria, engaging in fun open-air battles with foes across all level zones (I HATE the nerf mobs got, and if it’s a result of the changes to the trait system, then it’s more proof that said system needs to die), finding people to help and form spontaneous groups with, and wiping at world bosses until you learn how to fight them. And getting in costume brawls for the heck of it, and fighting to defend the places you care about from Ghost/Undead/Centaur/Inquest/What-Have-You incursions, and taking back reclaimed areas. And fighting for your server in WvW. And proving the might of your team’s kitten in sPvP.

Ascended gear is just an extra slapped onto everything else.

You are kidding. Guild Wars 2 might be new and exciting when you are starting out. But when you get to your 8th character to lv 80, there is nothing new and exciting to explore. It is just a massive grind for ascended or legendary.

Lucifirius.3196:

I have never encountered the Queensdale Train, but when I started this game, I learned how to play before I started zerging. Anet, it would be beneficial to newer players if this train was disrupted, perhaps any train in the starting zones.

LOL this cracks me up. “I know nothing of the champ train. When I was new it didn’t affect me. But ban it !!!”

HAHA

Saylu.8271:

Sartharina.3542:

tigirius.9014:

Unfortunately when you look at progression that is all there is to the future of the game until they take the time change it. I’m speaking of course of Ascended gear end game crafting.

Guild Wars 2 isn’t about crafting Ascended gear. What the hell do you think this is? World of Warcraft and its loot treadmill?

Guild Wars 2 is about exploring Tyria, engaging in fun open-air battles with foes across all level zones (I HATE the nerf mobs got, and if it’s a result of the changes to the trait system, then it’s more proof that said system needs to die), finding people to help and form spontaneous groups with, and wiping at world bosses until you learn how to fight them. And getting in costume brawls for the heck of it, and fighting to defend the places you care about from Ghost/Undead/Centaur/Inquest/What-Have-You incursions, and taking back reclaimed areas. And fighting for your server in WvW. And proving the might of your team’s kitten in sPvP.

Ascended gear is just an extra slapped onto everything else.

You are kidding. Guild Wars 2 might be new and exciting when you are starting out. But when you get to your 8th character to lv 80, there is nothing new and exciting to explore. It is just a massive grind for ascended or legendary.

Though I agree with you, lets please try to keep this thread on topic. The Queensdale champ train and its questionable existence.

Thank you.

Lord Kuru.3685:

Sartharina.3542:

Lord Kuru.3685:

The game is designed to be played by zerging. So it’s perfect that there’s a zerg going around in starting areas — let’s new players learn how to zerg.

No it’s not. The developers have outright stated that the Zerging is a problem from both a technical and gameplay standpoint, and are trying to find ways to reduce it without penalizing smaller-scale spontaneous groupings.

They can say whatever they want, but in reality, all their recent content have been zerg oriented.

Exactly most if not all of the Living Story content is for Zerging it in order to do the content. It’s the way the game was made around small or large zergs, so it’s not the players fault.

Let’s not forget the Tower of Nightmares – which was basically designed to be zerg friendly whilst being near suicide while going it alone.

I thought the QD champ train was pretty much eol since EoTm came out.
Unless your like <10 that is a much faster train to ride, and traveling is free.

CaptnRio.2705:

I am openly against the train in Queensdale (QD). Not about trains in and of themselves, just the one currently in QD. I have admittedly started many disagreements in map chat about why the QD train is not healthy and have received nothing but ill thought out arguments that i wish to address here and hopefully raise awareness of the issue with Anet.

Firstly, my main argument for why the QD Train is a bad thing is because it is in a starting area. An area where players who are just starting out should be able to freely roam around and learn to play the game without a rampaging horde of higher level characters running around zerging everything in sight. Starter zones should be able to teach players how to control their character with their weapon abilities, utility skills and how to keep moving and dodging in order to survive.
Instead, what players get upon first arriving in QD is a massive blob of players who have grouped up for easy experience and non-challenging gameplay.

A majority of the arguments that i receive, is that i should not tell people how to play the game. This argument swings both ways as i have on numerous occasions when spawning the Champion Cave Troll by Vale WP and request assistance, that i should stop being a troll and wait for others in the train to come and kill it. This in itself is an example of people trying to tell me how to play the game which they seem very against when i say that the train should be stopped. A friend of mine once got so much offensive and unneeded harassment for killing a champion on the path of the QD train through Map chat and Whispers, that they did not log on for a few days. I can only imagine what this would be like to a player who logged on their first day and received this sort of abuse.

You nailed it, brother. Queensdale and the other newb maps should be very limited in terms of Champion content. I’ve had many a frustrating night watching newbs belittled, because more experienced players had their “champ farm train” interrupted by a newb.

Yelling at newbs for being newbs is the most rotten thing I’ve ever seen in this game, mainly because newbs probably haven’t even figured out how to Block people yet.

By the way – Block – best darned feature in the game. BEST.

Bloodstealer.5978:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Sartharina.3542:

No it’s not. The developers have outright stated that the Zerging is a problem from both a technical and gameplay standpoint, and are trying to find ways to reduce it without penalizing smaller-scale spontaneous groupings.

Interesting. If you can link a source for that, I’d appreciate it. ANet has advertised GW2 as having a heavy emphasis on large-scale persistent world encounters since the initial information release about the game. If they’re thinking about changing this emphasis I’d like to read the whole post or article.

Maybe you missed probably the best example of what Sartharina is talking about… the Watch Knights in the final LS events were patched for that very reason to try and thin out zergs and move it around. Yes it failed miserably as “they did not perceive” the playerbase would play the content out in a zerg fashion even though pretty much every bit of content brought into the game over the last 12+ months was totally zerg friendly … teach pets to act a certain way then suddenly expect it too change in a flash was asking a bit too much in my opinion

Thanks! I did not play during the LA events. I knew that the Marionette was an effort to have a large-scale event that broke players up into smaller sub-groups, but was unsure if s/he was referring to one of the numerous posts that seem to happen anywhere but the official forums or the official site — many of which I miss.

Wasbunny.6531:

Exactly. Or even before they introduced champ boxes at all. Most level appropriate players would fear / avoid the champs, some brave ones would take them on. High levels would mostly ignore them except to possibly help out someone trying to take them down or to test themselves by soloing the beasts.

Champs were never seen as passive loot bags waiting to be farmed. They were Champions.

And “champions” meant “not worth the effort”. Those brave players trying champs for the first time, you mentioned, learned very fast that there was absolutely no reason to do that (because champs took a lot of effort, but even after several drop upgrades offered loot comparable with normal thrash mobs). They have also learned that effort does not pay.
In the end they still did the same – zerged (though they zerged not champs but farm events).

Wasbunny.6531:

The problem was there was no other reward besides the personal thrill of besting them and the knowledge gained. So in the end the champs were mainly ignored & avoided. This led (unfortunately imo) to champ boxes being added as guaranteed drops and shortly thereafter, champ trains.

Not unfortunately. Content being done in a way that you personally dislike is still better for the game that content that isn’t being done at all.

Wasbunny.6531:

The champ boxes giving level appropriate loot no matter what made it an obvious choice and ‘path of least resistance’ for a lot of players just looking for loot.

The champ boxes (and all drops) being level appropriate was the result of longstanding Anet policy that “all content is the end content”. They did not want the separation of low and high level players, and did not want those high levels to sit in only few top level zones. This became even more important after many players showed visible and strong dislike with Orr – there was a danger that when forced (by drop levels) to stay in zones they do not like, they may just lose interest in the game.
There was also a matter of Living Story – it had to take place in lower level zones, to make it more accessible to everyone, but needed to have level-related drops to keep the high elvel players interested. Which is why the chance to get level related drops was increased significantly on at least two separate occasions (originally it was only at about 1/3 or lower, most of the time you got zone-appropriate drops).

Wasbunny.6531:

I don’t think the answer is to make champ boxes drop zone level loot, since this would concentrate the high levels to a couple areas with little reason to go back to lower level zones.

That is definitely one of the possible outcomes. The other one is even worse – they may just leave.

Wasbunny.6531:

I think the loot just needs to be equal to the challenge to get it.

Oh, i agree. Instead of thinking that the loot of champ trains is too good, however, i think that loot everywhere else is just very bad. Just look at the loot from tequatl – it s definitely not equal to the challenge it proposes (which makes the loot from three-headed wurm even more underwhelming).

Unfortunately, by my experience, Anet is just bad at setting reasonable reward-to-risk ratios, usually setting it way too low.

Your idea with Champ Pavillon is generally good. Leave QD champs as they are – just make the loot at pavillon better. Then the people will move on on their own, without feeling angry that they have been denied yet another source of income (especially since the trains did receive a nerf recently).

When herding players towards specific content (or away from specific content), using a carrot is way better than using the stick. Too bad Anet doesn’t like to give out carrots.

MasterYoda.8563:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Sartharina.3542:

Lord Kuru.3685:

The game is designed to be played by zerging. So it’s perfect that there’s a zerg going around in starting areas — let’s new players learn how to zerg.

No it’s not. The developers have outright stated that the Zerging is a problem from both a technical and gameplay standpoint, and are trying to find ways to reduce it without penalizing smaller-scale spontaneous groupings.

They can say whatever they want, but in reality, all their recent content have been zerg oriented.

Exactly most if not all of the Living Story content is for Zerging it in order to do the content. It’s the way the game was made around small or large zergs, so it’s not the players fault.

Yep.

“HEY GUYS, WE ADDED GUARANTEED CHESTS AND BAGS TO EVERY CHAMP!”

/“Grrrr…those stupid customers are running champs like crazy now. We better put a stop to this!”

“Grrrr…we don’t like zerging. You CUSTOMERS better stop that behavior!”

/“HEY GUYS, WE MADE IT SO YOU CAN ONLY FIGHT WORLD BOSSES AT CERTAIN TIMES OF THE DAY! NOW, YOUR GUARANTEED TO RUN IN ZERGS!”

I agree with the OP that for a new player to experience the game properly they need to learn how the game works and how to play their character before surrendering themselves to a “devolved” game play style like trains.

Do we want a crop of level 80 players whose only experience in the game is running the train in Queensdale? Is that healthy for the game’s ecosystem?

arenanet could careless what you do in game as long as its gold making profitability is low. Which is why they took the coin reward away from champs. They won’t do anything else. Once they nerf the rewards they move on to kill the next best way to make money. So for those that want the train utterly wiped out that is just too bad and you should get over it. If you really want a fix for the train you should be asking for anet to roll back a bunch of the nerfs they did to things like shelter/pen farming. That will get the high level toons out of QD by giving them some other place to farm.

Well, players disrupting Zerg Trains makes Zerg Training less lucrative and appealing to players. A player behavior-driven solution to a player behavior-driven problem.

I’m trying to find the post again. Oh: Here it is, but it’s talking about Teq/Wurm. General principal is the same, though: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/madness/Well-I-defended-these-new-events-at-first/first#post3545393

Saylu.8271:

Sartharina.3542:

tigirius.9014:

Unfortunately when you look at progression that is all there is to the future of the game until they take the time change it. I’m speaking of course of Ascended gear end game crafting.

Well, players disrupting Zerg Trains makes Zerg Training less lucrative and appealing to players. A player behavior-driven solution to a player behavior-driven problem.

I’m trying to find the post again. Oh: Here it is, but it’s talking about Teq/Wurm. General principal is the same, though: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/madness/Well-I-defended-these-new-events-at-first/first#post3545393

Guild Wars 2 isn’t about crafting Ascended gear. What the hell do you think this is? World of Warcraft and its loot treadmill?

Guild Wars 2 is about exploring Tyria, engaging in fun open-air battles with foes across all level zones (I HATE the nerf mobs got, and if it’s a result of the changes to the trait system, then it’s more proof that said system needs to die), finding people to help and form spontaneous groups with, and wiping at world bosses until you learn how to fight them. And getting in costume brawls for the heck of it, and fighting to defend the places you care about from Ghost/Undead/Centaur/Inquest/What-Have-You incursions, and taking back reclaimed areas. And fighting for your server in WvW. And proving the might of your team’s kitten in sPvP.

Ascended gear is just an extra slapped onto everything else.

You are kidding. Guild Wars 2 might be new and exciting when you are starting out. But when you get to your 8th character to lv 80, there is nothing new and exciting to explore. It is just a massive grind for ascended or legendary.

Maybe it gets dull and grind for ascended/legendary gear for long-time veterans… but it shouldn’t be the gameplay expected or conditioned into new players and characters.

Behellagh.1468:

Do we want a crop of level 80 players whose only experience in the game is running the train in Queensdale? Is that healthy for the game’s ecosystem?

Yes, if they like that (and since the train in general does not hurt anyone), it is healthy for the game.
If there are indeed players whose experience is limited to running QD train (and i seriously doubt it is as common as you think), then it is only because they did not want to learn anything else. Besides, most of the “new players” in the train are not really new, but alts. As are most of the “new” players in queensdale in general.
And the train (and Behemoth) are the main reason why the zone seems alive. Are you sure that presenting to new players a near empty (even on megaserver) zone would be better for the game?

Sartharina.3542:

I’m trying to find the post again. Oh: Here it is, but it’s talking about Teq/Wurm. General principal is the same, though: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/madness/Well-I-defended-these-new-events-at-first/first#post3545393

Thank you. I see from this they’re trying to find a way to address the mindless aspect of zerging, but only addressing the mass numbers aspect by creating multiple simultaneous objectives or the like. While this is a welcome change, it’s not the solution to clustering or herding I was hoping for.

Astralporing.1957:

Your idea with Champ Pavillon is generally good. Leave QD champs as they are – just make the loot at pavillon better. Then the people will move on on their own, without feeling angry that they have been denied yet another source of income (especially since the trains did receive a nerf recently).

When herding players towards specific content (or away from specific content), using a carrot is way better than using the stick. Too bad Anet doesn’t like to give out carrots.

We seem to be on two different sides of the fence about the QD train and yet I have to absolutely agree with you on this solution. I think it’s a win/win.

Actually I don’t really disagree with most of your comments to my post, in that they describe a certain totally valid playstyle of loot collecting as a main source of enjoyment in the game. I sincerely have no problem with this, and in fact you might be in the majority. Doesn’t matter really, as I said it’s a totally valid way to play the game. Of course the impact on the community and general game experience for those that don’t share this view can be negatively impacted, even if not intentional. Neither ‘side’ wants this, we all want a better experience regardless.

Myself on the other side of the fence couldn’t care less about loot or gold and find all my primary rewards to be the journey to the chest, rather than the chest itself. Once again, really doesn’t matter. To each their own.

Comes down to a philosophical difference really, so no right or wrong.

Anyway, I really think we are coming to a great ‘best of both worlds’ solution with having a purposefully implemented zone/instance much like the Crown Pavilion specifically for champ farming, or basically farming tough high level mobs in general.

There is no need to nerf the loot further as long as the loot gained in this area is greater than the current rate for the Queensdale train. It would be an upleveled zone which would allow new players to get a taste of what level 80 is like in PvE, not just in WvW or PvP.

While not eliminating the Queensdale champ train it would give another option for those who want to do this type of thing, reducing the concentration in QD. I would personally love to jump back into the Crown Pavilion every now and again for some quick gold and epic mayhem.

I like it, and if it was on my desk right now I’d be tempted to sign it into law.

What do you all think, could it work?

Azhure.1857:

Astralporing.1957:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Lord Kuru.3685:

They can say whatever they want, but in reality, all their recent content have been zerg oriented.

It’s more accurate to say that all their recent (and temporary!) content is designed to not be roflstomped by zergs.

Untrue. Recent introducion of megaserver and changes to World Boss schedule were definitely zerg-promoting (and very permanent).

Agreed. With the introduction of megaservers AND world boss scheduling, I’d say Anet only wants people to zerg. Its why I have little faith that Queensdale will ever be a welcoming environment.

I wouldn’t say the megaservers promotes zerging – rather, it promotes populating maps (they’re not hte same thing!). The timer… yeah, that does push for zergs.

But if you say “Anet only wants people to zerg” because of the timer+megaserver combo, then you’re purposefully only looking at a quarter of the picture, completely ignoring the zerg-splitting content of the Triple Trouble wurm, the Marionette, the punishment-scaling Escape from LA events, and the obvious zerg-splitting of the Assault Knights and Prime Hologram during Battle for LA.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

But if you say “Anet only wants people to zerg” because of the timer+megaserver combo, then you’re purposefully only looking at a quarter of the picture, completely ignoring the zerg-splitting content of the Triple Trouble wurm, the Marionette, the punishment-scaling Escape from LA events, and the obvious zerg-splitting of the Assault Knights and Prime Hologram during Battle for LA.

I’m not ignoring it. Of all these the only really zerg-splitting content was Marionette. In all the other cases the minimum scaling was set high enough to make it impossible to do without zerging. The only thing that changed was that the zerg needs to be more organized than usual. Both Wurm and Knights were still designed as a content meant for 120+ people working in several huge blobs.
…and prime hologram with its achievements promoted mostly AFKing.

Smith.1826:

If a player heads out to a champion by himself with the knowledge that a ‘zerg train’ is a few minutes away, is it wrong for him to kill it? He could farm materials and other mobs in the vicinity while waiting for the 20+ people to arrive so that could acquire credit as well. They certainly didn’t truck all the way down to farm mats.

It would be NICE for the player to wait, but I certainly wouldn’t fault him/her for starting the Champ early. Maybe they’re on a tight time schedule. Maybe they’re afraid that if the train shows up they won’t be able to do enough damage to get credit (a very legitimate concern, especially if they’re a low level character). The train can always move on to the next Champ, but the lone player may only be fighting this one Champion during their play session.

I will agree that people who deliberately set out to derail trains is also not very nice behaviour and I would not do it repeatedly to multiple Champs just to aggravate the people on the train. But if a player comes across a Champion and wants to test their skills against it solo, I can’t fault them for doing so. I certainly like seeing if I can kill Champs in the open world myself.

All those people disrupting the train on purpose… and enjoying it.

elprimo.4398:

All those people disrupting the train on purpose… and enjoying it.

They do not want the train in the area, and feel it is detrimental to the server. So they do what they can to make zerg training in the area unappealing to as many players as possible. A player-driven solution to a player-driven problem.

Sartharina.3542:

elprimo.4398:

All those people disrupting the train on purpose… and enjoying it.

They do not want the train in the area, and feel it is detrimental to the server. So they do what they can to make zerg training in the area unappealing to as many players as possible. A player-driven solution to a player-driven problem.

So instead of simply putting the nail in the coffin, and getting it over with, you’re suggesting anet supports solutions that creates direct conflict between players resulting in a hostile community?

It is now okay for someone to step in whenever someone feels someone is playing the game in a way they do not like, and do whatever they can to ruin their gaming experience for the simple reason that they don’t like the way their playing, and feel it doesn’t fit the vision of Gw2?

I disagree with the concept of players in game policing others based on an interpretation they got from a dev post or video, that should be anet’s job, not some in game vigilante.

I’ve spent the past hour reading all the great posts that have come in regards to this issue (instead of going to bed like i should have), and i’d really like to address a few things that i may not have made clear, or were completely overlooked in my original post.

Firstly, of the people responding to my OP that i’m only doing this because i’m upset that people have thought of a way to make faster, easier loot than i did when starting out is a false claim. I am totally fine with Champ Trains. I am against only the one. The Queensdale Train. And again, as i stated in my first post, i’m not even going to deem a poster’s reply calling me a troll with a dignified response. It is a weak argument and lacks any solid means to solving the issue and is likely a claim from someone who supports the train and is possibly one of the ‘toxic’ players in question.

Another thing i’d like to point out, is that yes.. i do play in QD quite a bit. It is a beautiful zone and has some fun events to complete. I have been know to go there to complete dailies myself and get some mineral farming done. I enjoy leveling new characters and testing out new builds. I’m currently working on my 12th lvl 80 character and this does involve me running QD to level swiftly with map completion.

No other starting zone has a champion train. Why? Because the other zones either don’t have many champions that spawn (Like Plains of Ashford) or there are no decent routes to take and the times do not sync up well (Like Wayfarer’s). All I am saying is that the QD starting zone should not have a train. Move it to Kessex. Give new players a small buffer to get their bearings on the game and then bombard them with your #1 mashing prowess and all mighty zeroing knowledge in a weaker zone overall, but NOT in a starting zone.

My last comment is to those claiming that the whole game eventually boils down to zerging in world events and stacking in dungeons and spamming 1 are all admitting to the fact that they are lazy and wish to have an easy route to complete the game. You do NOT have to stack in certain places in a dungeon to complete it. YES it makes them easier at times but is NOT necessary. This is an ideal that came about from people wishing to just spam their abilities while completely negating one of the coolest, and well done mechanic in this game. DODGING. Oh.. But if you participate in the QD train and that just so happens to be the first thing you do in the game.. Chances are, You’ll never learn that particular game mechanic. You’ll learn how to button mash like you were playing a fighting game for the first time. Back tracking a bit to the zerging part.. Yes, Anet has seemed to put out a lot of content that requires zerging. But here’s the thing, all of those zerging events are in 30+ lvl zones. NOT in a starting zone. Do you need 50 people to kill Maw or Behe? No. Easier and less challenging? Most certainly. It is still not required.

Thank you to everyone who has posted here so far, i appreciate your feedback and i have enjoyed reading everyone’s point of view. Keep it up if you so wish, i will read everyone’s post. If not, the thread will die and i can finally go to bed!

Lambent.6375:

Sartharina.3542:

elprimo.4398:

All those people disrupting the train on purpose… and enjoying it.

They do not want the train in the area, and feel it is detrimental to the server. So they do what they can to make zerg training in the area unappealing to as many players as possible. A player-driven solution to a player-driven problem.

So instead of simply putting the nail in the coffin, and getting it over with, you’re suggesting anet supports solutions that creates direct conflict between players resulting in a hostile community?

Don’t see where he/she was suggesting that.

Lambent.6375:

It is now okay for someone to step in whenever someone feels someone is playing the game in a way they do not like, and do whatever they can to ruin their gaming experience for the simple reason that they don’t like the way their playing, and feel it doesn’t fit the vision of Gw2?

Its not okay. This thread is up because it isn’t okay. Your opinion is valid but it swings both ways on this issue.

Lambent.6375:

I disagree with the concept of players in game policing others based on an interpretation they got from a dev post or video, that should be anet’s job, not some in game vigilante.

I’m only speaking for myself here – but when I feel the need to derail the QD train (whether I act on that feeling or otherwise) it isn’t because of a “dev post or video”, its my own interpretation that what I see happening is horribly wrong.

It should be Anet’s job, as its supposed to be, but Anet has failed to do its job here. Hence all this disagreement and hostility. Since ArenaNet hasn’t fully addressed the problem with the Queensdale train — the current response some of us have is as the above mentioned “player driven solution”. Its not ideal. Its not pretty. But without Anet stepping in on this issue there are two options left for us.
Continue on with what little we can do to impact it…
OR
…Resign ourselves to the notion that “It is what it is, its not going anywhere, and we should just get over it already.”

You can guess how I feel about the latter option.

Tuntz.8953:

Sartharina.3542:

Algreg.3629:

Garrisyl.7402:

Algreg.3629:

repetitive griefing of targeted specific players

Ah, yes. This is an interesting claim indeed. Can griefing the griefers be considered griefing? Have they deserved it? Isn’t it better to grief two guys before they can grief the entire Map? Is it just of me?

So many questions, so few answers.

The champ train is toxic, and something should be done about. This chat isn’t what new players should have to see.

No, that is quite a clear claim, not interesting at all. Yes, it can. And google “vigilantism” if you find any time in between your griefing endeavours.

And properly-targetted vigilante activities in-game, just as in real life, dramatically improve the quality of the world for everyone who isn’t a scumbag.

And who defines what is/isn’t acceptable ? You ?

No, I do.

/15chars

I disagree with the perceived need to eliminate the trains. In fact I would like to see trains in every map. Queensdale is popular because it feels alive. The train is part of the reason for that. Instead of trying to make yet another dead zone, Anet should look at why Queensdale IS alive.

Yes, people that run the train can be rude when “their” champ is killed ahead of schedule, but more often than not it is because the person(s) that killed a champ out of order are goading them into that response by proudly announcing in mapchat their clear intention of disrupting the train. Either way you are talking about a handful of people on each side making all the noise while the majority are silent about it and move on. I suppose the high level vigilantes that feel a need to disrupt the train are trying to liberate those people into a type of gameplay that suits the vigilantes needs, not the individual. It is rarely and I mean very rarely that the train gets derailed by a new player as is being portrayed by some here. Its almost always the “Ill play my way” level 80 in great gear doing the service.

So a new player gets to choose to run a train where they receive help in achieving something they would otherwise be unable to do or they get to learn how to be disruptive, uncooperative and generally unliked. Its not like this “hated zerg” just marches all across the map killing everything in its path. The trains course is very select and precise. So much so that it is easily grieved by those who adore being disruptive.

The people that run the train work together to accomplish something they would otherwise be unable to do. The train is fun. I love that high level characters can mix it up with new characters. Thats something that is sorely missed in many other games. Ive met some really great people running these trains and for me thats what its really all about.

Some of us work long hours. Its hard for us to get involved in any kind of guild or dungeon running. What we want to do is spend that hour or two having fun. We dont want a grind. We dont want to plug in to a second job. The train IS fun. Odd as it may seem one of my favorite parts of it is the pause waiting for boar. All kinds of silliness goes on there.