Guild Wars 2

Look, gear progression may be your preferred ‘hook’ for a game, but there’s nothing wrong with the people – the obvious large number of people – who find it ultimately unfulfilling and want something different.

I’m not saying anything about who’s right or wrong or who’s in the majority. To talk about that makes about as much sense as comparing the rightness or wrongness and the numbers of people who like seafood or not. It’s absolutely purely a matter of taste.

The reason you get resistance to the idea here on these forums is because Gw1 was, and this game was marketed as, anti-gear progression. So in effect you’re walking into a seafood restaurant and complaining that fish stink, and expecting to meet sympathizers.

Guild Wars 2 is doing well by all accounts. I think ascended gear is the closest you’re going to get to the idea of gear progression here.

I think the “I hate gear progression because I equate it to griding” or “I want my skill to be the only measure of worth” crowd is missing something entirely in htis argument.

Those of us asking for something more -something harder, something that takes longer, more comittment, yes even More skill, are NOT infringing upon your enjoyment of the game. What do you care if the devs add in new items/gear that based on your schedule or willingingess or ABILITY to achieve is impossible?

All I see is an argument that basically sums up to “If I can’t have it then no one can.” All I am asking for is something akin to dungeoning/raiding with tier gear that is associated with difficulty. The more difficult the dungeon the better the items and the better they look.

If whatever “requirements” there are to achieve these items are too steep of a price for you to pay so what, what skin is it off your back. Are you simply afraid that the folks that do achieve the better items will then have an UNFAIR advantage over you in PVP? I feel sorry for you, really I do.

Okay make all PVE dungeon/raid gear default to static stats when entering PVP. The game already auto levels anyhow. No big deal. What then is the issue with having gear progression?

The answer is there is No issue – other than a group of people who feel slighted because someone is able to do something they are not.

I am not willing or able to have it so by the alimighty neither shall you…that’s what you are saying.

Lheimroo.2947:

Look, gear progression may be your preferred ‘hook’ for a game, but there’s nothing wrong with the people – the obvious large number of people – who find it ultimately unfulfilling and want something different.

I’m not saying anything about who’s right or wrong or who’s in the majority. To talk about that makes about as much sense as comparing the rightness or wrongness and the numbers of people who like seafood or not. It’s absolutely purely a matter of taste.

The reason you get resistance to the idea here on these forums is because Gw1 was, and this game was marketed as, anti-gear progression. So in effect you’re walking into a seafood restaurant and complaining that fish stink, and expecting to meet sympathizers.

Guild Wars 2 is doing well by all accounts. I think ascended gear is the closest you’re going to get to the idea of gear progression here.

The pushback occurs even stronger when someone walks into a seafood restaurant and loudly demands a steak, tells the patrons and the management there that they are entitled to a steak, insults everyone in the restaurant who doesn’t believe that they should be served a steak all because the steakhouse down the street has been serving them steaks for years and that is what they want, no matter which restaurant they walk into.

I think the “I hate gear progression because I equate it to griding” or “I want my skill to be the only measure of worth” crowd is missing something entirely in htis argument.

It’s nothing to do with “measure of worth”. That’s something I’ve noticed about people who are crazy about gear progression: they think having better armor means they are worth more, while I never said that being more skilled makes me worth more.

To me it’s not about who’s worth more or who’s better, it’s about having fun with friends. I actually played with many friends who aren’t that skilled, and guess what, I don’t think less of them, we just team up and have fun together. That’s all.

Those of us asking for something more -something harder, something that takes longer, more comittment, yes even More skill, are NOT infringing upon your enjoyment of the game.

Ah, but that’s where you’re mistaken.
By creating content that requires grinding gear, they’re not working on the things that I care about. It is infringing upon my enjoyment of the game.

I want them to improve the story. I want them to improve dungeons and general PvE to be more challenging and encourage coordination with other players. By constantly updating the game to provide bigger numbers in gear and the content that goes with it, they won’t be working on the things that matter to me.

It also affects my enjoyment of the game when my friends can’t play with me because they don’t have the armor needed to do the content I’m at.

Right now you can already grind gear and achievements, and crafting, and exploration, and fractals, and WvW rank, and PvP rank. There’s a lot to grind progress for your character, if that’s your thing.

By bringing more grinding-style content, it means that the things I care about won’t be in the game since developers won’t have time to make them.

You are also making a mistake by assuming “getting stronger and nicer looking gear” equals harder content or more skill. It doesn’t. In fact, harder content and more skilled gameplay is exactly what I want ANet to put in Gw2 like they did with Gw1. Grinding gear won’t provide that.

All I am asking for is something akin to dungeoning/raiding with tier gear that is associated with difficulty. The more difficult the dungeon the better the items and the better they look.

So let me get this right, you want to have fun and challenging dungeons. Well ain’t that great, me too! In fact I want it in all of PvE.

In addition to that, you also want item rewards. What kind of items would you like that don’t currently exist in Gw2? We have a lot of stuff right now. Don’t tell me you’ve already gotten all of them, I know you didn’t ;-)

But why do armor numbers have to keep increasing? Gw1 was so good about giving progression without inflation, I don’t see why Gw2 has to revert to how other games do it.

If whatever “requirements” there are to achieve these items are too steep of a price for you to pay so what, what skin is it off your back. Are you simply afraid that the folks that do achieve the better items will then have an UNFAIR advantage over you in PVP? I feel sorry for you, really I do.

It doesn’t matter if the requirements are too steep or if the items fall on my lap for free, either way I just don’t want to have stats that are always increasing!
I just don’t want items to keep increasing in power forever. To me it’s irrelevant if it’s easy or difficult to get, if it takes two years or 30 seconds.

Okay make all PVE dungeon/raid gear default to static stats when entering PVP.

Yes, Gw1 did that. Gw2 only does it for sPvP but not for WvW.

The game already auto levels anyhow.

You know, I would like it if you could get upscalled and downscalled, so your level and gear is irrelevant.

(Continued from above)

What then is the issue with having gear progression?

- If it prevents you from doing what you enjoy because you need to spend your time getting that gear

- If your friends had to take time off from the game for personal reasons (baby, sickness, uprooting your family, taking care of your elderly parents, school, etc) and now they can’t play with you anymore because their gear isn’t good enough for the content where you’re at.

I wonder if you’re assuming only teenagers and young adults play online games. There’s a lot of players who are much older or have many more responsibilities in life.

But with Gw1, it didn’t matter, you just came back later and kept playing with your friends as usual. With gear grinding, that wouldn’t be possible.

The answer is there is No issue – other than a group of people who feel slighted because someone is able to do something they are not.

As I said, it makes a huge difference, which is why there’s so many of us who are so loyal to Gw1.
It’s not something you would understand no matter how many times we explain it, from the looks of it.

I never felt slighted because some people in Gw1 got obsidian armor and I didn’t. I chose not to even though I could.

My husband has never felt slighted because I had vabbian armor and he didn’t. I mean, it’s not like he’s going to call in sick at work so he can stay home and farm materials. I don’t think the army would be too fond of that.
Maybe other players do that? LOL

We both played depending on how much time and dedication we chose to spare to the game, but because the gear has a ceiling, we can play together any time we want and have FUN.

My friends and I wouldn’t be able to have FUN together if obsidian armor had bigger numbers than vabbian armor, or if vabbian armor had better numbers than regular armor. We wouldn’t have time to stay up to date, so we wouldn’t be able to play with each other and have as much fun as we did.

I am not willing or able to have it so by the alimighty neither shall you…that’s what you are saying.

I tried to explain where we’re coming from, and you’re not seeing it. You keep twisting our words to how you want to see them.

You’re on the side that doesn’t get it. So why not just go and play a game that caters to what you want? There are many of those games. That way both you and I and Gw1 fans can have what we want. But if Gw2 caters to your type, Gw1 fans are left with nothing, absolutely nothing. Why not be generous and let us have some fun too?

We Gw1 fans (atleast those who feel the same way I do) want the Gw1 philosophy in Gw2, because there are no other games like it. That’s the difference: you have a choice to go play a game that offers what you like, because there are many games like it, but we don’t have a choice, because there are no other games like it available.

Our only hope is Gw2 ;-)

lorazcyk.8927:

It doesn’t matter if the requirements are too steep or if the items fall on my lap for free,

To some of the old timers it matters very much, but it’s nice to see that people finally make the distinction between gear grind and gear treadmill. Some are okay with both, some are okay with only one of the two, and some are okay with neither. Now, ANet, which of the four groups will you try to keep pleased? :P

So much focus on gear progression when the true question really is progression in itself, in that it hits flat at 80. Remove gear from the equation entirely, in terms of just progression in anything once you hit 80 and your in exotics your done.

All thats left to progress your character is a few ascended pieces which are gated in terms of how fast you can acquire them and your look. I like progression, it doesnt have to be gear progression but there has to be progression. Luckily my want to progress in Fractals to get some skins and working towards my legendary is my current goal, but there really is nothing else to progress my character.

There are no challenging dungeons that im not going to be able to complete because the mechanics made it a difficult fight. There is just content that is will take longer.

There is nearly 0 PvE content in the game that actually requires you to talk to one another because of its difficulty and the few that do exist simply arnt worth the effort as there are easier ways to obtain what you want.

GW2 Needs a Raid, it needs its own form of raids. Where content is challenging (not just High #’s) to progress some aspect of your character while working together with a team. Challenging content is what builds teams as you have to work together, if a task isnt hard enough then there is no reason for teams to form. GW2 has one of the friendliest communities, however is also have one of the quietest.

I like progression, it doesnt need to be gear progression but it needs to be progression. I would like a GW2 raid to progress through. And dont get hung up on the term raid here, its just a term to describe challenging PvE content in this context.

IndigoSundown.5419:

clay.7849:

That’s because Vayne wants you to believe that Ascended Gear came from people asking for it in the forums. It didn’t. It was part of ANet’s plan all along. They have said that many times.

What they said long before launch was that exotic was top tier. What they said after the game hemorrhaged players left and right, amidst complaints of “nothing to work for,” was, “We’re adding Ascended, and by the way we’d planned this all along.” You can believe the public relations speak if you like, but we are unlikely to know what really went on.

Now, I’m not complaining about Ascended. It is what it is. However, I’m not keen to believe ANet was intending to add it all along. They had to know it would kitten off many GW1 fans, so why plan its inclusion absent the evidence that it would be wanted?

It’s one of those spin situations. Ascended gear was probably discussed. Some people probably wanted it and got vetoed. So some people at the company, in fact, did start designing it pre launch.

When people felt they had nothing to do, they dusted it off, made some changes to how it was, most likely, and then said, its’ been here all along. Not exactly a lie, but not exactly the truth either.

It’s a company trying to mollify those offended, of which there were many, and still provide something for those who needed that extra bit of something to work towards.

SolidTx.3249:

I think the “I hate gear progression because I equate it to griding” or “I want my skill to be the only measure of worth” crowd is missing something entirely in htis argument.

Those of us asking for something more -something harder, something that takes longer, more comittment, yes even More skill, are NOT infringing upon your enjoyment of the game. What do you care if the devs add in new items/gear that based on your schedule or willingingess or ABILITY to achieve is impossible?

All I see is an argument that basically sums up to “If I can’t have it then no one can.” All I am asking for is something akin to dungeoning/raiding with tier gear that is associated with difficulty. The more difficult the dungeon the better the items and the better they look.

If whatever “requirements” there are to achieve these items are too steep of a price for you to pay so what, what skin is it off your back. Are you simply afraid that the folks that do achieve the better items will then have an UNFAIR advantage over you in PVP? I feel sorry for you, really I do.

Okay make all PVE dungeon/raid gear default to static stats when entering PVP. The game already auto levels anyhow. No big deal. What then is the issue with having gear progression?

The answer is there is No issue – other than a group of people who feel slighted because someone is able to do something they are not.

I am not willing or able to have it so by the alimighty neither shall you…that’s what you are saying.

They will add tiers of gear to this game more than likely. It’s a lot easier and costs less than an expansion. I think mmo players that like progression will get bored unless they add it and they made this game for all different types of players. I find it extremely shallow and boring because once you have more than a few level 80’s there’s only wvw.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Every game has their gimmick builds. We’re already seeing them here in GW2 (why, hello speed clears. No ones killed you yet? sigh) But even gimmicks require skill, be it timing or synergy or what have you. You don’t just spring forth being good at them. You have to learn them, and possibly even adapt them a little bit to your play style. One size does not fit all.

True, I totally could never get trap builds to work on my ranger. I also for some reason could never land D-shot. Savage Shot all day long, even interrupt Mesmer 1/4 second spells. D-Shot? Never, ever managed to time it right. It would always hit too late.

That said, Guild Wars 1 is a different animal for another reason: no “multi necro and ritualist hero party” which would walk over everything. Here? It’s the speed clear “Full Zerker and don’t stop til you see the end chest” process. I would ki . . . maim. I would maim someone . . . to see something where they were actually the WORST possible way to take a challenge

“All I see is an argument that basically sums up to “If I can’t have it then no one can.”

Okay, you’re losing credibility with me here. Have you really read through all the posts? People have explained the flaws that come with a gear based system and why they don’t wouldn’t want that in GW2. It’s not an ideal system for every MMO player and it never will be.

And is there REALLY a problem here? Do you think the time you’ve spent in the game wasn’t worth it? I think for players like you who miss gear progression should just feel glad you aren’t paying a subscription. That is the beauty of GW2, just come back when you want to. Maybe you should just a take a break and come back for an expansion.

WanderingSavior.2576:

“All I see is an argument that basically sums up to “If I can’t have it then no one can.”

Okay, you’re losing credibility with me here. Have you really read through all the posts? People have explained the flaws that come with a gear based system and why they don’t wouldn’t want that in GW2. It’s not an ideal system for every MMO player and it never will be.

And is there REALLY a problem here? Do you think the time you’ve spent in the game wasn’t worth it? I think for players like you who miss gear progression should just feel glad you aren’t paying a subscription. That is the beauty of GW2, just come back when you want to. Maybe you should just a take a break and come back for an expansion.

Agreed or go play one of the new games coming out that have the things these players want I know that’s what I’ll be doing ;-). Mmo market is flooded with tons of games so why should Anet care if some players are unhappy?

MistaMike.7356:

marnick.4305:

SolidTx.3249:

- All of this probably feels very familiar to many of you. Except soon after the bulk of our members started to get bored – primarily because there wasn’t anything left for them to “continue progressing” their character. Sure some leveled alts but most of us are hardcore players and like to dedicate to one charatcer. Others continued to focus on WvW but even that didn’t provide any rewards that made their characters better. A fewer number completed their legendaries and today there’s only a handful left playing GW2. Sure theres the notion of playig the game because its fun. And GW2 is that, it is fun. But many of us need to feel like we are accomplishing something. Call it vanity too, but we also want to feel and look special…and Gw’s lack of gear progression makes us sad.

The big issue with gear progression lies in that sentence. You can only feel special by making the vast majority of people feel bad when they see you. People don’t play games to feel bad.

What? That’s not what he said at all. If you feel bad looking at somebody who has something that you don’t want to take the time to earn yourself, that says alot more about you than him. Why don’t you worry about yourself and not about what other people have.

Because if others have stats that I can’t gain, and therefor gain an insurmountable advantage, that’s unfair in a competitive game. It’s like giving Usain Bolt a segway while I have to run barefoot against him. It’s like giving Kasparov 7 queens for being the best chess player. As if Real Madrid could field 40 players in soccer. Makes absolutely no sense in a competitive sense.

Max stats should be available on logging in, for free, seconds after buying the game. Uniquely looking gear should be the goal of “elite” players, not stats. That’s how properly designed competitive games work.

SolidTx.3249:

tolunart.2095:

SolidTx.3249:

If GW2 philosophy is to make a game so a player who plays the game for 5-10 hours a week can have the same gear, look, and capabilities as someone who invests 30 hours a week – then GW2 will FAIL.

This is my idea of the perfect MMO.

Bonus: immature and elitist kids have a kitten because they can’t be better than everyone else just because they spend 12 hrs a day pressing buttons and leave.

I am no kid, far from it. And for you to assume that I am, and a bad player simply because I want the game to provide more progression features is also incorrect. I’m a John Gault like person – your a Karl Marx like person. That’s the difference.

Let me tell you I contribute a lot to the welfare system IRL and I’m far more to John Gault than you’ll ever be. I am offended you’d call someone like me a welfare person for not playing as much videogames as you. Any RL John Gault type of person would very strongly disagree with you.

skill, age has nothing to do with this argument. the argument is about content, or in GW2’s case the lack thereof. And why would anyone be opposed to Arena making higher level content that requires more investment, more skill, more achievement. Doing so doesnt detract from the casual player at all..

Unless the casual player is kitten off because they cant have the same thing for a lot less investment- for less work. We should call these folks welfare gamers instead of casual gamers – because that’s what you’re advocating.

The only thing I want, is a reasonable cap on max stats gear, attainable by the John Gault type of player, the one with an IRL job and other responsibilities. To balance the time requirements of in-game stuff around the people that contribute to RL society. Is that too much to ask for? Does that make me a Karl Marx?

Not to mention the words “work” and “game” shouldn’t be mentioned in the same sentence. GW2 isn’t my job … I don’t want to work in a videogame, I’d much rather have fun after a hard day of real life work.

And let me end this post saying that Atlas Shrugged is as much a flawed concept as Das Kapital, but lets not take it there.

marnick.4305:

MistaMike.7356:

marnick.4305:

SolidTx.3249:

- All of this probably feels very familiar to many of you. Except soon after the bulk of our members started to get bored – primarily because there wasn’t anything left for them to “continue progressing” their character. Sure some leveled alts but most of us are hardcore players and like to dedicate to one charatcer. Others continued to focus on WvW but even that didn’t provide any rewards that made their characters better. A fewer number completed their legendaries and today there’s only a handful left playing GW2. Sure theres the notion of playig the game because its fun. And GW2 is that, it is fun. But many of us need to feel like we are accomplishing something. Call it vanity too, but we also want to feel and look special…and Gw’s lack of gear progression makes us sad.

The big issue with gear progression lies in that sentence. You can only feel special by making the vast majority of people feel bad when they see you. People don’t play games to feel bad.

What? That’s not what he said at all. If you feel bad looking at somebody who has something that you don’t want to take the time to earn yourself, that says alot more about you than him. Why don’t you worry about yourself and not about what other people have.

Because if others have stats that I can’t gain, and therefor gain an insurmountable advantage, that’s unfair in a competitive game. It’s like giving Usain Bolt a segway while I have to run barefoot against him. It’s like giving Kasparov 7 queens for being the best chess player. As if Real Madrid could field 40 players in soccer. Makes absolutely no sense in a competitive sense.

Max stats should be available on logging in, for free, seconds after buying the game. Uniquely looking gear should be the goal of “elite” players, not stats. That’s how properly designed competitive games work.

Nothing in life is fair. Some of the most rewarding gameplay is beating someone with an unfair advantage because you’re a better player.

Drew.1865:

marnick.4305:

MistaMike.7356:

marnick.4305:

SolidTx.3249:

- All of this probably feels very familiar to many of you. Except soon after the bulk of our members started to get bored – primarily because there wasn’t anything left for them to “continue progressing” their character. Sure some leveled alts but most of us are hardcore players and like to dedicate to one charatcer. Others continued to focus on WvW but even that didn’t provide any rewards that made their characters better. A fewer number completed their legendaries and today there’s only a handful left playing GW2. Sure theres the notion of playig the game because its fun. And GW2 is that, it is fun. But many of us need to feel like we are accomplishing something. Call it vanity too, but we also want to feel and look special…and Gw’s lack of gear progression makes us sad.

The big issue with gear progression lies in that sentence. You can only feel special by making the vast majority of people feel bad when they see you. People don’t play games to feel bad.

What? That’s not what he said at all. If you feel bad looking at somebody who has something that you don’t want to take the time to earn yourself, that says alot more about you than him. Why don’t you worry about yourself and not about what other people have.

Because if others have stats that I can’t gain, and therefor gain an insurmountable advantage, that’s unfair in a competitive game. It’s like giving Usain Bolt a segway while I have to run barefoot against him. It’s like giving Kasparov 7 queens for being the best chess player. As if Real Madrid could field 40 players in soccer. Makes absolutely no sense in a competitive sense.

Max stats should be available on logging in, for free, seconds after buying the game. Uniquely looking gear should be the goal of “elite” players, not stats. That’s how properly designed competitive games work.

Nothing in life is fair. Some of the most rewarding gameplay is beating someone with an unfair advantage because you’re a better player.

A competitive game has to be fair , or it is simply not competitive. Nothing is worse than losing to a worse player because the game is rigged against you. To win against a worse player with an advantage does not balance that.

SolidTx.3249:

I think the “I hate gear progression because I equate it to griding” or “I want my skill to be the only measure of worth” crowd is missing something entirely in htis argument.

Those of us asking for something more -something harder, something that takes longer, more comittment, yes even More skill, are NOT infringing upon your enjoyment of the game. What do you care if the devs add in new items/gear that based on your schedule or willingingess or ABILITY to achieve is impossible?

All I see is an argument that basically sums up to “If I can’t have it then no one can.” All I am asking for is something akin to dungeoning/raiding with tier gear that is associated with difficulty. The more difficult the dungeon the better the items and the better they look.

If whatever “requirements” there are to achieve these items are too steep of a price for you to pay so what, what skin is it off your back. Are you simply afraid that the folks that do achieve the better items will then have an UNFAIR advantage over you in PVP? I feel sorry for you, really I do.

Okay make all PVE dungeon/raid gear default to static stats when entering PVP. The game already auto levels anyhow. No big deal. What then is the issue with having gear progression?

The answer is there is No issue – other than a group of people who feel slighted because someone is able to do something they are not.

I am not willing or able to have it so by the alimighty neither shall you…that’s what you are saying.

You are playing the wrong game. Go play Rift or WoW, it’s a nice treadmill for you.

SolidTx.3249:

I think the “I hate gear progression because I equate it to griding” or “I want my skill to be the only measure of worth” crowd is missing something entirely in htis argument.

Lorazcyk had an excellent response to you, but I’ll throw my 2 cents in as well.

Point 1 – Grinding: I don’t mind grinding. I did my share of it for my titles in GW1 and I do my share of it here in GW2. I enjoy farming materials, which in itself is ‘grinding.’ The difference between this type of grind, and a gear treadmill though, is that (in the majority of cases) gear grind is mandatory. It’s REQUIRED in order to progress. Not just to look good. Not just to “show your worth.” Required in order to ACCESS game content, and while gated content is fine as a part of normal linear game progression (requires story progression, requires a specific quest to be completed, ie NORMAL game play), gear grind is not ‘normal game play.’ At least not by any definition that I think most people would agree on. Gear grind generally requires you to repeatedly do 1 thing, with a small chance of receiving the thing you’re after. Spending hours upon hours of repetitive, non-progressive grind (ie ‘preparing to play’), in order to move on. There is a single instance of something semi-similar in GW1, and to this day, the majority of the player base despises it. (Hello Factions, we’re talking about you here) Personally, I didn’t mind it too much, but almost everyone I’ve ever played with has hated it with a passion.

Point 2 – Skill the only measure of worth: No, this isn’t what we’re after. There are many ways to show your ‘measure of worth.’ Yes, you’re armor can do this for you, it did it for us in GW1, but so did titles after the introduction of Factions. In the early days, when you saw someone running around in FoW armor, you knew that they were good players and had plenty of in game money. At the beginning of Nightfall, if you saw someone in Vabbian, you know that they were definitely well funded. If you saw someone with GWAMM under their name (even if they were in kitten armor) you KNEW their worth. “Showing your worth” can mean many things (skill, money, etc) and can be done many ways (armor, titles, etc).

SolidTx.3249:

Those of us asking for something more -something harder, something that takes longer, more comittment, yes even More skill, are NOT infringing upon your enjoyment of the game. What do you care if the devs add in new items/gear that based on your schedule or willingingess or ABILITY to achieve is impossible?

I’m all for harder content. For areas that require more skill, more strategy, hell even more time to complete them. Don’t gear lock it though, make it accessible just like everything else. The issue with gear locking content is that not everyone starts playing right at launch, not everyone decides to do it at the same time. People take their time in other sections of the game or new players come in YEARS later, and now they can’t do that content because no one’s doing the pre-reqs to grind the gear needed to access it. People have moved on, and the players either get left out or others that have advanced end up taking time out of their enjoyment to boost someone else, essentially repeating the same grind all over again. Where’s the fun in that? Yes, let the devs add CONTENT that people can attempt as they so choose. Let it be more difficult, more time consuming, more skill intensive. Make it have depth. Gear treadmills don’t have depth, they aren’t ‘content’ in the sense of what many are looking for.

SolidTx.3249:

All I see is an argument that basically sums up to “If I can’t have it then no one can.” All I am asking for is something akin to dungeoning/raiding with tier gear that is associated with difficulty. The more difficult the dungeon the better the items and the better they look.

We’re not saying ‘if we can’t have it neither can you’ either. I have no issues with adding in better looking gear as a reward for harder dungeons/raids. However, why’s it need better stats? If you’re just showing off, it doesn’t matter what the stat is, what matters is what people are looking at. To achieve what you want, no increase in stats is necessary. They give you harder content, which is not gated by gear (which is what we want), and you get a nicer looking skin. This was how it was in GW1, and how it should be in GW2. Yes, kitten give us nice looking things for accomplishing something difficult. No, don’t lock it and make us grind armor to access it though.

SolidTx.3249:

If whatever “requirements” there are to achieve these items are too steep of a price for you to pay so what, what skin is it off your back. Are you simply afraid that the folks that do achieve the better items will then have an UNFAIR advantage over you in PVP? I feel sorry for you, really I do.

So…because you have no life…sit at home all day playing a video game, you should have better rewards than those that can only put in a few hours of the day after work? Because honest, hardworking people that have lives don’t deserve anything nice in a game they might enjoy playing in what little free time they can devote to it? I gotcha, you feel entitled to something nicer because you put ‘more time.’ Skill > Time.

As for “unfair advantage in pvp”…by nature, a competitive game (such as player vs player) must have equal footing and enforceable rules in order to accurately determine a clear winner or loser. Gear advantage skews this, and while this isn’t terribly obvious in GW2, it is in other games like WoW. Getting your kitten handed to you because you didn’t have hours to grind the latest amazing gear level (or even while trying to grind that latest gear level) is NOT enjoyable. If you think it is, go roll a new toon in WoW, level up to 15 and go play AB in base PvE armor for a few hours and see how you feel. Maybe it makes you feel wonderful, getting beaten down over and over again (and talked kitten to), but for most normal human beings, we feel pretty crappy. We do not want this in GW2!

SolidTx.3249:

Okay make all PVE dungeon/raid gear default to static stats when entering PVP. The game already auto levels anyhow. No big deal.

It does in sPvP, which I’m good with. Dungeons it doesn’t need to because there is a cap to armor, as there should be. It worked wonderfully in GW1, it can work just as well here.

SolidTx.3249:

What then is the issue with having gear progression?

The issue with gear progression (generally) is that it’s required to access content; content that players get locked out of at later times because people have moved on. I’ve experienced this personally in WoW. I only started playing WoW last year. Started in January, was totally burnt out and hated the game by July. Why? Because every guild I joined, I couldn’t play with any of the members. I wasn’t a high enough level. I didn’t have the right gear. So on and so forth. In 7 months I killed myself grinding 3 characters to max, bored to tears running the same dungeon over and over and over again, to armor up so I could join my guild members – 1 healer, 1 dmg, 1 tank. So I could fit into any role they might need. It wasn’t fun. It wasn’t enjoyable. Not to mention the kitten I got from my dungeon groups for not having ‘x’ or ‘y’ skill, or armor, or not knowing the path because I’d never played before, or what have you. And, while yes, sometimes I got help on some of the grind from my guildies, most of them were too busy with their own grinds to be able to help. I don’t know about others, but I don’t want that in GW2. I don’t want others to suffer for hours being made to feel like they aren’t ‘good enough’ or treated like kitten because they aren’t up to speed on the gear treadmill.

SolidTx.3249:

The answer is there is No issue – other than a group of people who feel slighted because someone is able to do something they are not.

I am not willing or able to have it so by the alimighty neither shall you…that’s what you are saying.

Yes, there is an issue with gear treadmills, at least with how the treadmills and gated content has been implemented in other games, as many have pointed out (some rather rationally, and politely – me not included, I know I’m cranky). There are alternatives to what you seek in simpler solutions, but those don’t seem to be good enough answers for you. Like many who refuse to hear arguments in favor of gear treadmills, you’re equally as bigoted about accepting logical, reasonable arguments against it.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I don’t want others to suffer for hours being made to feel like they aren’t ‘good enough’ or treated like kitten because they aren’t up to speed on the gear treadmill.

I feel I’m not “good enough” simply for being a ranger often enough Or for not being able to do PvP successfully when sitting in the Borderlands.

There are alternatives to what you seek in simpler solutions, but those don’t seem to be good enough answers for you. Like many who refuse to hear arguments in favor of gear treadmills, you’re equally as bigoted about accepting logical, reasonable arguments against it.

It is, in my opinion, a matter of ingrained expectations.

Because gear supremacy is so prevalent elsewhere, and in just about any RPG solo or not, it’s an attitude that “oh X gear means they must be awesome”. Above it was mentioned Obsidian Armor in GW1 as one yardstick of “worth”.

(Personally I always saw it as a sign they were rich enough to get the materials off the Trader and knew someone who would run them through to the Eternal Forgemaster. The toughest part of Obsidian Armor was getting the Ecto/Shards, and that was a matter of platinum. Nearly anything in GW1 could be bought with enough platinum.)

I have never played World of Warcraft, but I’ve played some F2P games where gear grind was an integral part. I’ve played some single player RPGs where gear grind was an integral part (Dragon Quest 1, “Flame Sword, Magic Armor, Silver Shield”). I’ve played non-RPGs which had gear grind as an integral part (Hello UFO: Enemy Unknown, how’s the Elerium treating you?).

And I enjoyed both games of example. Except for the grind, which was a lot of boring search-and-destroy. (Okay, maybe the UFO example was a lot more fun getting your Elerium by exploding Sectoid bases.)

The problem is, these days . . . I don’t have the time I used to. Especially on an MMO where I rely on time windows which often aren’t by my own choices. I don’t want a mandatory gear grind any more than anyone else. Much as with GW1, though, I’m content for optional gear grind. (Please back away from the edge you walked to with Ascended, ArenaNet. You haven’t jumped off the cliff yet, so just . . . back away slowly.)

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

SolidTx.3249:

If whatever “requirements” there are to achieve these items are too steep of a price for you to pay so what, what skin is it off your back. Are you simply afraid that the folks that do achieve the better items will then have an UNFAIR advantage over you in PVP? I feel sorry for you, really I do.

So…because you have no life…sit at home all day playing a video game, you should have better rewards than those that can only put in a few hours of the day after work? Because honest, hardworking people that have lives don’t deserve anything nice in a game they might enjoy playing in what little free time they can devote to it? I gotcha, you feel entitled to something nicer because you put ‘more time.’ Skill > Time.

As for “unfair advantage in pvp”…by nature, a competitive game (such as player vs player) must have equal footing and enforceable rules in order to accurately determine a clear winner or loser. Gear advantage skews this, and while this isn’t terribly obvious in GW2, it is in other games like WoW. Getting your kitten handed to you because you didn’t have hours to grind the latest amazing gear level (or even while trying to grind that latest gear level) is NOT enjoyable. If you think it is, go roll a new toon in WoW, level up to 15 and go play AB in base PvE armor for a few hours and see how you feel. Maybe it makes you feel wonderful, getting beaten down over and over again (and talked kitten to), but for most normal human beings, we feel pretty crappy. We do not want this in GW2!

SolidTx.3249:

Okay make all PVE dungeon/raid gear default to static stats when entering PVP. The game already auto levels anyhow. No big deal.

It does in sPvP, which I’m good with. Dungeons it doesn’t need to because there is a cap to armor, as there should be. It worked wonderfully in GW1, it can work just as well here.

SolidTx.3249:

What then is the issue with having gear progression?

The issue with gear progression (generally) is that it’s required to access content; content that players get locked out of at later times because people have moved on. I’ve experienced this personally in WoW. I only started playing WoW last year. Started in January, was totally burnt out and hated the game by July. Why? Because every guild I joined, I couldn’t play with any of the members. I wasn’t a high enough level. I didn’t have the right gear. So on and so forth. In 7 months I killed myself grinding 3 characters to max, bored to tears running the same dungeon over and over and over again, to armor up so I could join my guild members – 1 healer, 1 dmg, 1 tank. So I could fit into any role they might need. It wasn’t fun. It wasn’t enjoyable. Not to mention the kitten I got from my dungeon groups for not having ‘x’ or ‘y’ skill, or armor, or not knowing the path because I’d never played before, or what have you. And, while yes, sometimes I got help on some of the grind from my guildies, most of them were too busy with their own grinds to be able to help. I don’t know about others, but I don’t want that in GW2. I don’t want others to suffer for hours being made to feel like they aren’t ‘good enough’ or treated like kitten because they aren’t up to speed on the gear treadmill.

SolidTx.3249:

The answer is there is No issue – other than a group of people who feel slighted because someone is able to do something they are not.

I am not willing or able to have it so by the alimighty neither shall you…that’s what you are saying.

Yes, there is an issue with gear treadmills, at least with how the treadmills and gated content has been implemented in other games, as many have pointed out (some rather rationally, and politely – me not included, I know I’m cranky). There are alternatives to what you seek in simpler solutions, but those don’t seem to be good enough answers for you. Like many who refuse to hear arguments in favor of gear treadmills, you’re equally as bigoted about accepting logical, reasonable arguments against it.

slow clap

@ OP- you have been told repeatedly in this thread why many people do not want tiered gear.
You seem unable to accept the quite rational arguments given against it.

At this point all I can say is that maybe you should find a game that caters to your tastes, because this game is not what you want currently.

I really really hope that it will never become what you want.

So, as answer to your “honest question”, this game is not for you and your guild and you will never enjoy it. You are better off finding a game you enjoy and leaving the game we have now to the people who do enjoy it.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I feel I’m not “good enough” simply for being a ranger often enough Or for not being able to do PvP successfully when sitting in the Borderlands.

WvW is most definitely a very different animal from structured PvP. Truthfully, just as with FA, JQ, and AB in GW1, I’m not sure if many ‘true pvpers’ would consider WvW to be PvP.

It is, in my opinion, a matter of ingrained expectations.

Because gear supremacy is so prevalent elsewhere, and in just about any RPG solo or not, it’s an attitude that “oh X gear means they must be awesome”. Above it was mentioned Obsidian Armor in GW1 as one yardstick of “worth”.

(Personally I always saw it as a sign they were rich enough to get the materials off the Trader and knew someone who would run them through to the Eternal Forgemaster. The toughest part of Obsidian Armor was getting the Ecto/Shards, and that was a matter of platinum. Nearly anything in GW1 could be bought with enough platinum.)

In the early days, whether they farmed the plat, or farmed the materials, it still took time, skill, and effort. I always rather thought it was fugly on most classes, but meh. You knew if you saw a person in it, that there was someone that had put some effort in to the game. BUT it didnt’ give them any advantage over anyone else. They just looked cooler. Which was sort of the whole point. You can equate worth to a lot of things, but you don’t need outlandish stats which screw up balance to achieve it.

I have never played World of Warcraft, but I’ve played some F2P games where gear grind was an integral part. I’ve played some single player RPGs where gear grind was an integral part (Dragon Quest 1, “Flame Sword, Magic Armor, Silver Shield”). I’ve played non-RPGs which had gear grind as an integral part (Hello UFO: Enemy Unknown, how’s the Elerium treating you?).

And I enjoyed both games of example. Except for the grind, which was a lot of boring search-and-destroy. (Okay, maybe the UFO example was a lot more fun getting your Elerium by exploding Sectoid bases.)

The problem is, these days . . . I don’t have the time I used to. Especially on an MMO where I rely on time windows which often aren’t by my own choices. I don’t want a mandatory gear grind any more than anyone else. Much as with GW1, though, I’m content for optional gear grind. (Please back away from the edge you walked to with Ascended, ArenaNet. You haven’t jumped off the cliff yet, so just . . . back away slowly.)

There is some gear progression in all games. The difference is whether or not that progression is a grind treadmill that is outside the flow of the game. If you absolutely have to do it to get to content. If you have to go out of your way, outside your normal play, to get that gear. Grinding one specific dungeon to get 1 piece, then having to go grind another dungeon to get another piece…dungeons that you might otherwise not do because they have no impact on “your progression” but are required to achieve that progression are the issue, and that’s what I (and those like me) don’t want to see in this game.

We don’t want Anet to say…re-implement FoW….but now you can ONLY access it if you have ‘x’ set of armor with ‘y’ rating. Not ‘you have to be ascended’ (which was part of the normal story in Prophecies, Factions, AND Nightfall)…not that you have to complete the game (like for DoA)…you have to acquire armor set ‘x’ from dungeons a-e and each piece only has like a 0.01% chance of dropping. See the difference?

I don’t mind the normal progression of armor, but it should have a [reasonable] max stat cap.

I don’t mind having multiple tiers of armor working up to max stats, so long as its within reason. I though 4 was fine in GW1, but we maxed at 20 there. I can see the need for a few more in GW2, but kitten we don’t need 15+ tiers like some other games.

I don’t mind having 35 different skins of max stats that are optional to obtain if you want them.

I mind being told I can’t move on unless I go out of my way to obtain them.

Edit: No Tobias, I’m not grumping at you.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I feel I’m not “good enough” simply for being a ranger often enough Or for not being able to do PvP successfully when sitting in the Borderlands.

WvW is most definitely a very different animal from structured PvP. Truthfully, just as with FA, JQ, and AB in GW1, I’m not sure if many ‘true pvpers’ would consider WvW to be PvP.

It is, in my opinion, a matter of ingrained expectations.

Because gear supremacy is so prevalent elsewhere, and in just about any RPG solo or not, it’s an attitude that “oh X gear means they must be awesome”. Above it was mentioned Obsidian Armor in GW1 as one yardstick of “worth”.

(Personally I always saw it as a sign they were rich enough to get the materials off the Trader and knew someone who would run them through to the Eternal Forgemaster. The toughest part of Obsidian Armor was getting the Ecto/Shards, and that was a matter of platinum. Nearly anything in GW1 could be bought with enough platinum.)

In the early days, whether they farmed the plat, or farmed the materials, it still took time, skill, and effort. I always rather thought it was fugly on most classes, but meh. You knew if you saw a person in it, that there was someone that had put some effort in to the game. BUT it didnt’ give them any advantage over anyone else. They just looked cooler. Which was sort of the whole point. You can equate worth to a lot of things, but you don’t need outlandish stats which screw up balance to achieve it.

I have never played World of Warcraft, but I’ve played some F2P games where gear grind was an integral part. I’ve played some single player RPGs where gear grind was an integral part (Dragon Quest 1, “Flame Sword, Magic Armor, Silver Shield”). I’ve played non-RPGs which had gear grind as an integral part (Hello UFO: Enemy Unknown, how’s the Elerium treating you?).

And I enjoyed both games of example. Except for the grind, which was a lot of boring search-and-destroy. (Okay, maybe the UFO example was a lot more fun getting your Elerium by exploding Sectoid bases.)

The problem is, these days . . . I don’t have the time I used to. Especially on an MMO where I rely on time windows which often aren’t by my own choices. I don’t want a mandatory gear grind any more than anyone else. Much as with GW1, though, I’m content for optional gear grind. (Please back away from the edge you walked to with Ascended, ArenaNet. You haven’t jumped off the cliff yet, so just . . . back away slowly.)

There is some gear progression in all games. The difference is whether or not that progression is a grind treadmill that is outside the flow of the game. If you absolutely have to do it to get to content. If you have to go out of your way, outside your normal play, to get that gear. Grinding one specific dungeon to get 1 piece, then having to go grind another dungeon to get another piece…dungeons that you might otherwise not do because they have no impact on “your progression” but are required to achieve that progression are the issue, and that’s what I (and those like me) don’t want to see in this game.

We don’t want Anet to say…re-implement FoW….but now you can ONLY access it if you have ‘x’ set of armor with ‘y’ rating. Not ‘you have to be ascended’ (which was part of the normal story in Prophecies, Factions, AND Nightfall)…not that you have to complete the game (like for DoA)…you have to acquire armor set ‘x’ from dungeons a-e and each piece only has like a 0.01% chance of dropping. See the difference?

I don’t mind the normal progression of armor, but it should have a [reasonable] max stat cap.

I don’t mind having multiple tiers of armor working up to max stats, so long as its within reason. I though 4 was fine in GW1, but we maxed at 20 there. I can see the need for a few more in GW2, but kitten we don’t need 15+ tiers like some other games.

I don’t mind having 35 different skins of max stats that are optional to obtain if you want them.

I mind being told I can’t move on unless I go out of my way to obtain them.

Edit: No Tobias, I’m not grumping at you.

Good post, I will disagree with WvW not being “real PvP” to “true PvPers” though. I hadn’t played “real PvP” since DAoC and Shadowbane, this game brought it back to me.

Technically, the “true” MMO PvP crowd is mostly what you see in WvW now, because where is fun in a totally even 15v15 match all the time? The true test of skills is when you fight off superior numbers with superior tactics. Arena style combat has annihilated PvP in most MMOs and dumbed it down to the point of attracting the FPS locusts.

Other than that, I agree!

Aeonblade.8709:

Good post, I will disagree with WvW not being “real PvP” to “true PvPers” though. I hadn’t played “real PvP” since DAoC and Shadowbane, this game brought it back to me.

Technically, the “true” MMO PvP crowd is mostly what you see in WvW now, because where is fun in a totally even 15v15 match all the time? The true test of skills is when you fight off superior numbers with superior tactics. Arena style combat has annihilated PvP in most MMOs and dumbed it down to the point of attracting the FPS locusts.

Other than that, I agree!

I would classify WvW as PvP as well, but that’s just me. I know plenty of sPvPers, and hardcore arena/HoH PvPers from GW1 that wouldn’t call it pvp though. shrug I guess if we wanted to get technical, WvW is pvp by definition as it is player vs player, however is it also player vs environment (them NPCs aint friendly) and not necessarily balanced in the sense that structured pvp (such as HoH or arenas) is. Ow, I made my head hurt. Stop making me think.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I always rather thought it was fugly on most classes, but meh.

Hence why I never busted balls trying to get it I had only one class it looked “okay” on (Paragon) but all their armor sets looked so similar, it was a case of “why?”.

There is some gear progression in all games. The difference is whether or not that progression is a grind treadmill that is outside the flow of the game. If you absolutely have to do it to get to content.

The games I listed, it is treadmill. Especially the UFO example – Elerium powers all the cool stuff so you need it. Constantly. In Dragon Warrior, those weapons/armor were practically the only ones which would let you survive the push for final gear (found, not bought, and you could “cheat” and get the ultimate armor before Magic Armor, but details details)

We don’t want Anet to say…re-implement FoW….but now you can ONLY access it if you have ‘x’ set of armor with ‘y’ rating. Not ‘you have to be ascended’ (which was part of the normal story in Prophecies, Factions, AND Nightfall)…not that you have to complete the game (like for DoA)…you have to acquire armor set ‘x’ from dungeons a-e and each piece only has like a 0.01% chance of dropping. See the difference?

I see the difference, but do we have that kind of gating? I mean, there’s Agony Resist (“You must have this much not to have the Jade Maw kill you.”) but that’s about it isn’t it? So far, I mean.

I mind being told I can’t move on unless I go out of my way to obtain them.

So far, that’s just Fractals 10+ and if we can keep it to that I’ll be satisfied. Mostly because nothing truly jaw-droppingly unbalancing drops in there.

Edit: No Tobias, I’m not grumping at you.

Pfft, even if you were it’s well-said enough that I don’t mind.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I always rather thought it was fugly on most classes, but meh.

Hence why I never busted balls trying to get it I had only one class it looked “okay” on (Paragon) but all their armor sets looked so similar, it was a case of “why?”.

There is some gear progression in all games. The difference is whether or not that progression is a grind treadmill that is outside the flow of the game. If you absolutely have to do it to get to content.

The games I listed, it is treadmill. Especially the UFO example – Elerium powers all the cool stuff so you need it. Constantly. In Dragon Warrior, those weapons/armor were practically the only ones which would let you survive the push for final gear (found, not bought, and you could “cheat” and get the ultimate armor before Magic Armor, but details details)

We don’t want Anet to say…re-implement FoW….but now you can ONLY access it if you have ‘x’ set of armor with ‘y’ rating. Not ‘you have to be ascended’ (which was part of the normal story in Prophecies, Factions, AND Nightfall)…not that you have to complete the game (like for DoA)…you have to acquire armor set ‘x’ from dungeons a-e and each piece only has like a 0.01% chance of dropping. See the difference?

I see the difference, but do we have that kind of gating? I mean, there’s Agony Resist (“You must have this much not to have the Jade Maw kill you.”) but that’s about it isn’t it? So far, I mean.

I mind being told I can’t move on unless I go out of my way to obtain them.

So far, that’s just Fractals 10+ and if we can keep it to that I’ll be satisfied. Mostly because nothing truly jaw-droppingly unbalancing drops in there.

Edit: No Tobias, I’m not grumping at you.

Pfft, even if you were it’s well-said enough that I don’t mind.

Personally, I don’t even think we should have it in fractals. If they want to make infusion an armor requirement, add it to the progression play. Have it inherent in ascended armor or some crap. Still, I suppose as long as they keep it to fractals I won’t care overly much….I don’t do fractals. Too many elitist pigs and well, to put it bluntly, I’m a B****.

Without a gear treadmill, the endgame is pretty much WvW, s/tPvP, and skin collection (dungeons, events, legendaries etc.). That’s why the game has such a low population, this strategy is dedicated for a niche of players who enjoys the things I stated above, while the rest played for 2-3 months and left.

BurntTree.3857:

Without a gear treadmill, the endgame is pretty much WvW, s/tPvP, and skin collection (dungeons, events, legendaries etc.). That’s why the game has such a low population, this strategy is dedicated for a niche of players who enjoys the things I stated above, while the rest played for 2-3 months and left.

True enough, and that’s the downside of it. I freely admit to not playing all that much lately because I have run out of a lot of things to do and the routine was getting a little dull. I try to make it on on days where I don’t work. (I work second shift, also known as “prime time”, CST. I miss a lot of people doing stuff then, and doing it alone is . . . not as much fun.)

I mostly agree with the OP. Perhaps gear progression is something that can be left out of the equation, but many of the “challenges” that exist just aren’t exciting.

One can have endgame without gear progression. It can be something players of all stripes can participate in. It might be hard to fathom, but not all of us like WvW (for all intents and purposes, WvW is similar to a WoW battleground) or sPvP.

I do play WoW, and I rather enjoy raiding there. The only big problem in WoW is how quickly you can get behind in gear if you’re not part of a team that is progressing through the latest raids. I really don’t see why we can’t have raiding in this game, sans a need to push for “better” gear. No sense in adding a gear gate for a community who seems staunchly opposed to the addition of better gear, but there’s also no sense in opposing a need for more challenging content that one can do as a guild.

What’s fun for some isn’t necessarily fun for all. PvP, in all it’s forms, just isn’t fun for me. There are others in my guild who feel the same, so we all just run dungeons and fractals. We do wish for more, though.

alan.5863:

I mostly agree with the OP. Perhaps gear progression is something that can be left out of the equation, but many of the “challenges” that exist just aren’t exciting.

One can have endgame without gear progression. It can be something players of all stripes can participate in. It might be hard to fathom, but not all of us like WvW (for all intents and purposes, WvW is similar to a WoW battleground) or sPvP.

I do play WoW, and I rather enjoy raiding there. The only big problem in WoW is how quickly you can get behind in gear if you’re not part of a team that is progressing through the latest raids. I really don’t see why we can’t have raiding in this game, sans a need to push for “better” gear. No sense in adding a gear gate for a community who seems staunchly opposed to the addition of better gear, but there’s also no sense in opposing a need for more challenging content that one can do as a guild.

What’s fun for some isn’t necessarily fun for all. PvP, in all it’s forms, just isn’t fun for me. There are others in my guild who feel the same, so we all just run dungeons and fractals. We do wish for more, though.

I like how this guy thinks.

PvP gear progression is silly. It should be determined solely by skill. It would be as absurd as starting a fighting game with 2x the life bar and 50% stronger attacks because you “grinded” a character.

Scalable Dungeons are fine, though that already sorta exists in Fractals. But more difficult content doesn’t inherently require better gear.

The problem with steep gear progression is that it invalidates the effort people put into their own “endgame”. It’s like “Hey, you know all that stuff you planned for at first? Well, go salvage it and play fetch”. And then this locks out players who haven’t been keeping up with it.

The only way to make gear progression viable and not gate content is so that the differences between tiers are relatively minor and that upgrades remain accessible, such as being able to be sold on the TP or other methods. Unfortunately for those that hunger to be distinguished from others, this is not what they want. If you require each tier to require insane grinding, then this shuts out new players completely.

If you want to look at what not to do, look at ascended gear.

SolidTx.3249:

All I see is an argument that basically sums up to “If I can’t have it then no one can.” All I am asking for is something akin to dungeoning/raiding with tier gear that is associated with difficulty. The more difficult the dungeon the better the items and the better they look.

Where you see these arguments as sum up to “If I can’t have it…” I see them sum up to “Why aren’t you copying (Insert title here)?” ArenaNet wants to try something different with GW2. So far they are attracting people and if they want they will change things again.

Right now they are set on this path and the game hasn’t lost enough players to warrant a change so they must be doing something right.

Now I’ve read through this thread and for certain parts I don’t mind some of your suggestions: Harder zones and such. I’m not a PvP’er so I’ll let more experienced minds discuss that little event. Though it seems that with the Suncove area and with Flame and Frost that ArenaNet is giving us different and sometimes tough areas to play in.

On a completely different note, I’m glad this game gets away from the traditional Skinner-box of certain level designs. Plus it completely pulls away from the codependent relationship marker that is subscriptions.

This makes me, as a player, feel rather good that I could come back if they have done something I don’t really agree with and check up on them later on.

ArchonWing.9480:

If you want to look at what not to do, look at ascended gear.

No. That’s not a good example I mean, it’s a good current example for people in this game. I’d rather point to the gear progression of good ol’ EverQuest when level caps weren’t being raised. That was pretty bad, especially in Planes of Power.

alan.5863:

One can have endgame without gear progression. It can be something players of all stripes can participate in.

^ This was essentially one of the points I was trying to make.

You can get harder content that doesn’t require constant gear grind to access/complete it. You can have harder dungeons, raids, and so on that don’t require you to spend every free moment working towards the next gear level. Instead, you can play the game at your own pace, as you feel comfortable with, and tackle the harder content in your own time, without needing to go out of your way for armor.

Warruz.8096:

So much focus on gear progression when the true question really is progression in itself, in that it hits flat at 80. Remove gear from the equation entirely, in terms of just progression in anything once you hit 80 and your in exotics your done.

All thats left to progress your character is a few ascended pieces which are gated in terms of how fast you can acquire them and your look. I like progression, it doesnt have to be gear progression but there has to be progression. Luckily my want to progress in Fractals to get some skins and working towards my legendary is my current goal, but there really is nothing else to progress my character.

There are no challenging dungeons that im not going to be able to complete because the mechanics made it a difficult fight. There is just content that is will take longer.

There is nearly 0 PvE content in the game that actually requires you to talk to one another because of its difficulty and the few that do exist simply arnt worth the effort as there are easier ways to obtain what you want.

GW2 Needs a Raid, it needs its own form of raids. Where content is challenging (not just High #’s) to progress some aspect of your character while working together with a team. Challenging content is what builds teams as you have to work together, if a task isnt hard enough then there is no reason for teams to form. GW2 has one of the friendliest communities, however is also have one of the quietest.

I like progression, it doesnt need to be gear progression but it needs to be progression. I would like a GW2 raid to progress through. And dont get hung up on the term raid here, its just a term to describe challenging PvE content in this context.

100% agree. Progression is what is missing in Gw2. As said earlier, all we want is for some raids to advance and make progress. Also as stated earlier, progression doesnt have to be gear related (yes, read back I said that too) but it could be.

The problem is GW2 doesnt have a progression system and there are a lot of players who want one. Oh, and one more thing. Sure this is an Arena net game. And yes it is a sequel to Guild Wars. But this game IS NOT Guild Wars. It’s Guild Wars 2 and its okay if its different

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

SolidTx.3249:

If whatever “requirements” there are to achieve these items are too steep of a price for you to pay so what, what skin is it off your back. Are you simply afraid that the folks that do achieve the better items will then have an UNFAIR advantage over you in PVP? I feel sorry for you, really I do.

So…because you have no life…sit at home all day playing a video game, you should have better rewards than those that can only put in a few hours of the day after work? Because honest, hardworking people that have lives don’t deserve anything nice in a game they might enjoy playing in what little free time they can devote to it? I gotcha, you feel entitled to something nicer because you put ‘more time.’ Skill > Time.

As for “unfair advantage in pvp”…by nature, a competitive game (such as player vs player) must have equal footing and enforceable rules in order to accurately determine a clear winner or loser. Gear advantage skews this, and while this isn’t terribly obvious in GW2, it is in other games like WoW. Getting your kitten handed to you because you didn’t have hours to grind the latest amazing gear level (or even while trying to grind that latest gear level) is NOT enjoyable. If you think it is, go roll a new toon in WoW, level up to 15 and go play AB in base PvE armor for a few hours and see how you feel. Maybe it makes you feel wonderful, getting beaten down over and over again (and talked kitten to), but for most normal human beings, we feel pretty crappy. We do not want this in GW2!

SolidTx.3249:

Okay make all PVE dungeon/raid gear default to static stats when entering PVP. The game already auto levels anyhow. No big deal.

It does in sPvP, which I’m good with. Dungeons it doesn’t need to because there is a cap to armor, as there should be. It worked wonderfully in GW1, it can work just as well here.

SolidTx.3249:

What then is the issue with having gear progression?

The issue with gear progression (generally) is that it’s required to access content; content that players get locked out of at later times because people have moved on. I’ve experienced this personally in WoW. I only started playing WoW last year. Started in January, was totally burnt out and hated the game by July. Why? Because every guild I joined, I couldn’t play with any of the members. I wasn’t a high enough level. I didn’t have the right gear. So on and so forth. In 7 months I killed myself grinding 3 characters to max, bored to tears running the same dungeon over and over and over again, to armor up so I could join my guild members – 1 healer, 1 dmg, 1 tank. So I could fit into any role they might need. It wasn’t fun. It wasn’t enjoyable. Not to mention the kitten I got from my dungeon groups for not having ‘x’ or ‘y’ skill, or armor, or not knowing the path because I’d never played before, or what have you. And, while yes, sometimes I got help on some of the grind from my guildies, most of them were too busy with their own grinds to be able to help. I don’t know about others, but I don’t want that in GW2. I don’t want others to suffer for hours being made to feel like they aren’t ‘good enough’ or treated like kitten because they aren’t up to speed on the gear treadmill.

SolidTx.3249:

The answer is there is No issue – other than a group of people who feel slighted because someone is able to do something they are not.

I am not willing or able to have it so by the alimighty neither shall you…that’s what you are saying.

Yes, there is an issue with gear treadmills, at least with how the treadmills and gated content has been implemented in other games, as many have pointed out (some rather rationally, and politely – me not included, I know I’m cranky). There are alternatives to what you seek in simpler solutions, but those don’t seem to be good enough answers for you. Like many who refuse to hear arguments in favor of gear treadmills, you’re equally as bigoted about accepting logical, reasonable arguments against it.

Amazing. Why do assume because I want something more from the game that I am a loser with no job and life and play video games all day? How dare you. Would you like my Linkdin profile? Would it shock you that I work 60 hours a week, have a mortgage, 2 happy well adjusted kids and a wife, been married to one woman for 19 years? How dare you.

I have achieved all I want IRL as you say. The fact that I want more from the video games I play is my right to speak. You can disagree with my opinion, but you have only degraded yourself with your wild and incorrect assumptions.

SolidTx.3249:

Amazing. Why do assume because I want something more from the game that I am a loser with no job and life and play video games all day? How dare you. Would you like my Linkdin profile? Would it shock you that I work 60 hours a week, have a mortgage, 2 happy well adjusted kids and a wife, been married to one woman for 19 years? How dare you.

I have achieved all I want IRL as you say. The fact that I want more from the video games I play is my right to speak. You can disagree with my opinion, but you have only degraded yourself with your wild and incorrect assumptions.

The first paragraph ‘you’ wasn’t actually intended as aimed specifically at you, although your grumping about lack of gear grind at times has sounded rather a lot like those that fit the description I laid out. I was grumping at the numerous individuals that DO fit that description, and they drive me crazy with their gimme gimme gimme, I’m entitled bullkitten. They play games all day. No job. No life. Trust fund babies, welfare moochers, or what have you.

As I was using ‘you’ in the general sense while writing my response (a common practice in writing, for those that recall high school and college English courses), I’ve hardly degraded myself by using it, as I wasn’t making an assumption about you specifically. However, if that is how you want to take it…well, cheers.

The second paragraph where I suggested going and rolling a new toon and getting beat on for a few hours, well yeah that was aimed at you. But, that could be your thing, you might like getting beat down because you’re sub-par until you can grind that necessary gear level. I really don’t know. I can only speak for myself, and those I play with when I say that we don’t find crap like that enjoyable and don’t want that type of experience in this game.

Edit: What’s really funny is, from that entire post…that’s all you walked away with, all you cared to comment on. chuckle

“Edit: What’s really funny is, from that entire post…that’s all you walked away with, all you cared to comment on. chuckle”

because I found the rest of the argument fairly baseless.

Adding more content to the game does not detract from your enjoyment. If you dont like whats added, DONT participate. So they add in some tier gear, or perhaps a dungeon with heaven forbid an “attunement”. The fact that the content exists doesnt take away from you. It doesnt. You dont have to participate.

Now you say that the time/investment made by the devs is wasted. Not so, there are more than enough people on the other side of the argument who with me, agree the content would be appreciated. So what if you dont like every feature the game has to provide. You’ve already said you like the game the way that it is. Im not advocating change to that – just new content that will appeal to others that you can ignore.

We can agree the game needs more content, harder more challenging content with better rewards and a wider variety of looks. Even by their own admission people on your side of the argument here say there is very little to do in the game and their play time is dimished.

that is the crux of my argument. the base game is wonderful. its combat is the benchmark. graphical quality near perfect. But once you get 80, get exotic gear, profs to 400 and a legendary there is not much to do other than WvW which even with its quality can get repetitive and old.

game needs more content for level 80 characters and corresponding rewards to go with it. I dont think that is a statement that will ruffle many feathers, at least from what Ive read.

SolidTx.3249:

Adding more content to the game does not detract from your enjoyment.

Funny, I said that to someone about the Super Adventure Box not long ago, and they told me it was the crudest and silliest argument, essentially sticking my head in the sand and ignoring that it was a pile of charr excrement. Okay, there MAY have been some more swear words involved and some rude references to certain parts of anatomy (and uses of which are either illegal or physically impossible).

I’d also ask one question though, assuming you are right and there are more people on the side wanting this type of gear progression than those who don’t.

What makes it right to do such excruciating amount of content development for only one group over another, who will never use it? Why spend the man-hours working on that, when you could work on something both sides would actually do? Such as the aforementioned Box.

An honest answer is that this game has been out for 8 months? now all mmorpg do not put out a lot of end game content before the first year yes they put out some holding end game content but nothing with true meat on it. This game came out with true end game content it was just not a lot of it. They have added in a lot of end game content as time went on and they are still adding in more and more end game content at a far greater speed then any other mmorpg befor it.

The simple truth is there is nothing else has achieved this level of content in this amount of time for this gen of mmorpg.
Your going to find your self only going after mmorpg that have been out a year + to get something new to do all the time. And even then you will burn though content so fast (if you find you done all of gw2 end game at this point) that you will get very bored waiting for the longer then once a month updates that most older games have.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

SolidTx.3249:

Adding more content to the game does not detract from your enjoyment.

Funny, I said that to someone about the Super Adventure Box not long ago, and they told me it was the crudest and silliest argument, essentially sticking my head in the sand and ignoring that it was a pile of charr excrement. Okay, there MAY have been some more swear words involved and some rude references to certain parts of anatomy (and uses of which are either illegal or physically impossible).

I’d also ask one question though, assuming you are right and there are more people on the side wanting this type of gear progression than those who don’t.

What makes it right to do such excruciating amount of content development for only one group over another, who will never use it? Why spend the man-hours working on that, when you could work on something both sides would actually do? Such as the aforementioned Box.

completely fair question. I would hope that the devs are able to figure that out. Not you, but others have suggested that me and my guild and the thousands of others who want “progression” features go away and play Wildstar or whatever. Your question is just as valid for those folks as it is for me.

I’ve never said that my view is right and the other is wrong, and I dont believe that. Despite what some may say or believe, I understand and appreciate the disdain for grinding and activities in games that take time but add no value. I dont want those either and I’ve said that in multiple posts (but some don’t care to read those sentences).

If the devs can find features that appeal to everyone more credit to them, but that’s hard to do. My first post, the original honest question was FAR more about asking for raid-like content, additional dungeons, open up more of the map, give us more hearts and quests and yes ADD more rewards to that. My follow-up original question was “what is the disdain for gear progression” and that inspired a mostly healthy debate.

I would like to think that almost eveyone here and in the game wants MORE NEW content. More zones opened, more and more difficult dungeons, some raids, and with that cool and exciting rewards to go with them.

Where we seem to differ is what those rewards might be. Yes me and many others would like those rewards to improve our characters. Opposing that view others have expressed those rewards need only add new visuals and titles and not be stat impacting. That stands as our disagreement.

Seems like we agree on more than not.

Vayne.8563:

You lost 90% of this forum with the words we need gear progression. That’s all I’ll say on the subject. Good luck, mate. The kittenstorm approaches.

The problem is the game is waning, and the players on the forums don’t represent the players in the game. Who do feel like there’s nothing to do, for a guild, and there isn’t.

SolidTx.3249:

because I found the rest of the argument fairly baseless.

Adding more content to the game does not detract from your enjoyment. If you dont like whats added, DONT participate. So they add in some tier gear, or perhaps a dungeon with heaven forbid an “attunement”. The fact that the content exists doesnt take away from you. It doesnt. You dont have to participate.

Where the heck did I say that adding new content is detracting from my enjoyment? I have stated repeatedly that I’m all for new content. All I stated was ‘dont gear lock it.’ And I stand by that it doesn’t need to be gear locked.

Now you say that the time/investment made by the devs is wasted.

Where did I say this?

there are more than enough people on the other side of the argument who with me, agree the content would be appreciated. So what if you dont like every feature the game has to provide.

I’m one of the people that agrees more content would be appreciated. Although our opinions on what should be implemented differ.

And I don’t think any person ever likes every aspect of any game. That’s just normal.

You’ve already said you like the game the way that it is. Im not advocating change to that – just new content that will appeal to others that you can ignore.

I’m aware that new content may or may not appeal to me personally, and that the option of playing it is mine. My argument dealt specifically with gear-locking content, and why that type of implementation is not needed. Gear tiers, fine., within reason of course Required gear grind, not fine.

We can agree the game needs more content, harder more challenging content with better rewards and a wider variety of looks. Even by their own admission people on your side of the argument here say there is very little to do in the game and their play time is dimished.

Wasn’t arguing this fact… We do agree that we need more content, more challenges, etc.

that is the crux of my argument. the base game is wonderful. its combat is the benchmark. graphical quality near perfect. But once you get 80, get exotic gear, profs to 400 and a legendary there is not much to do other than WvW which even with its quality can get repetitive and old.

game needs more content for level 80 characters and corresponding rewards to go with it. I dont think that is a statement that will ruffle many feathers, at least from what Ive read.

My entire discussion has been based on the suggestion to implement, in your original post (or one of the first few posts anyway), a gear treadmill, and the question regarding what’s so bad about them. That carrot of ever progressing powerful armor…like in WoW. My arguments have been against specifically that – the treadmill and the never ending gear grind to get ‘the next level.’ I have no issue with having a limited number of gear tiers, and a cap to stats, as we did in GW1. That has been my entire discussion… However, I think we go lost somewhere in translation.

SolidTx.3249:

completely fair question. I would hope that the devs are able to figure that out. Not you, but others have suggested that me and my guild and the thousands of others who want “progression” features go away and play Wildstar or whatever. Your question is just as valid for those folks as it is for me.

I suppose it is valid, but what would you suggest? I mean, me? I have Minecraft. If I want something, chances are there’s some mod or server out there which will let me get it.

I’ve never said that my view is right and the other is wrong, and I dont believe that.

And I checked before saying that. However, I was approaching the question with the intent of “assuming this is so”.

Despite what some may say or believe, I understand and appreciate the disdain for grinding and activities in games that take time but add no value. I dont want those either and I’ve said that in multiple posts (but some don’t care to read those sentences).

I don’t like grinding for nothing, unless I choose to; I have done that before if I really like playing a game. “I’ll keep playing it, I enjoy X about it so grinding it a bit more for Y thing doesn’t seem that bad.” However, as a choice rather than forced . . . and, for note, not for a significant edge against those who chose not to when we’re talking about multiplayer.

I’ll just use one phrase to sum up what I mean: “I play Monster Hunter.”

My first post, the original honest question was FAR more about asking for raid-like content, additional dungeons, open up more of the map, give us more hearts and quests and yes ADD more rewards to that. My follow-up original question was “what is the disdain for gear progression” and that inspired a mostly healthy debate.

Ah. See, the content of more areas, hearts, events? I expect that’s coming. I hope it is. Raid-like content? If it’s handled better than their current World Boss system (I love it and hate it at the same time for the same reason: everyone who can fit in the zone can come do it) and if it’s also not bringing gear progression to affect the rest of the game.

I don’t mind the Ascended gear that much because (from where I stand) outside of Fractals, it’s not terribly important. If something is introduced which is akin to that style of “progression” where it is tied to more challenging versions of future content and not impacting the rest of the game? I’ll tentatively give a thumbs-up.

Where we seem to differ is what those rewards might be. Yes me and many others would like those rewards to improve our characters. Opposing that view others have expressed those rewards need only add new visuals and titles and not be stat impacting. That stands as our disagreement.

It’s simple, and been adequately explained. They don’t want to feel they must do this content to stay competitive. They’d like to choose not to do it, and not be at a disadvantage. It’s not just about stats either!

See the Molten Alliance pick? Imagine if that was (only) a 0.001% chance drop from the Weapons Factory coming up. Suddenly people who don’t do it are at a disadvantage because this rather useful tool is dropped there and it’s not just a cosmetic reward.

This is why people want to insist on cosmetic rewards such as titles, gear models, achievements, et cetera.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

This is why people want to insist on cosmetic rewards such as titles, gear models, achievements, et cetera.

And is that really so bad? It’s worked for EIGHT years for GW1…so apparently it’s doing something right.

Zeldain.5710:

Vayne.8563:

You lost 90% of this forum with the words we need gear progression. That’s all I’ll say on the subject. Good luck, mate. The kittenstorm approaches.

The problem is the game is waning, and the players on the forums don’t represent the players in the game. Who do feel like there’s nothing to do, for a guild, and there isn’t.

Well, if there’s nothing to do for a guild, what is my guild doing? We must have made a mistake.

Aside from WvW, which is obviously something some guilds do, there are different reasons why people join guilds. Some guilds run events. Together. For fun.

Oh, I get it. You mean Anet hasn’t spoon fed you something to do with a guild, and your guild leaders lack the imagination to find stuff to do. I understand. My advice is find a better guild.

People play games for different reasons. They join guilds for different reasons. The kind of stuff you’re looking for, probably something like raids, is not here, so there’s nothing for “you” to do.

My guild has at least 2 events a week plus a couple of guild missions a week. We find stuff to do, because we enjoy the game. It really is that simple. We do fun stuff. We show each other cool stuff we’ve discovered. We do jumping puzzles together as a guild. Those better at dungeons help some of those who aren’t as good through dungeons. Not everyone has their dungeon master title yet. We run around in WvW. Sometimes was SPvP. We’ve even gone and played Keg Brawl together and had a blast.

There’s a ton of stuff to do here for certain types of players and not a ton of stuff to do here for other types.

And most new MMOs don’t have enough stuff to do the first year or two that they’re out. People played SWToR and said there was no end game. People played Rift and said there wasn’t enough content. People played TSW and said there wasn’t enough content. People play Guild Wars 2 and they say there’s not enough content.

And they’re all right. There’s not enough content….because no one can produce content faster than people can play through it. The only way to do it is to make it either unreasonably hard, or time gate is, the way that WoW used to (and may still for all I know) have raid lockouts, so you could only a attempt and finish a raid once per week. Then you get together or your two or three raid nights with your guild, and you bang your head against the wall and if you happened to finish that raid, only one of the guys maybe got the piece of gear he needed, so he had to do it again next week…to maybe get the piece of gear he needed. Is that the kind of stuff you’re talking about?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

They don’t want to feel they must do this content to stay competitive. They’d like to choose not to do it, and not be at a disadvantage. It’s not just about stats either!

Bolded the important part. Even if the advantages of better gear or tools would be next to non existent, these players feel pressured into going for those things despite actually wanting to work towards something else. Titles, cosmetics, horizontal stuff.
These players won’t be able to enjoy going for things they like until the nagging voice in the back of their head constantly whispering “…you could be as efficient as everybody else if you did the other content instead…”
Just as a lot of players crave the need for constant improvement and progression, there are players that crave a feeling of not wasting their time with trivialities when they could go for better stats.

Those two mindsets are direct opposites of each other(at least on the stat level), and from what we have seen, the number of people wanting meaningful progression is… well, orders larger than the niche GW1 managed to satisfy.

“Adding more content to the game does not detract from your enjoyment. If you dont like whats added, DONT participate. So they add in some tier gear, or perhaps a dungeon with heaven forbid an “attunement”. The fact that the content exists doesnt take away from you. It doesnt. You dont have to participate.”

If gear progression was added for “raid” style content, my guildmates and I would have no problem as long as:

1) The gear was useful only in the “raid style” content for which it was specifically designed.

2) The gear had absolutely no effect on any other portion of the game, e.g. PvE or WvW. Not even the slightest amount of stat benefit or perceived enhancement.

3) The gear would not look any different from any other gear currently available to everyone (even to the point that perhaps it only existed in the form of accessories).

In other words, treat “progression raiding” as if it was SPvP. Those that enjoy can participate without impacting the rest of the game and/or playerbase.

We are not against progression.

We enjoy progressing. Laterally or otherwise. We understand, from over a decade of playing and game design, that it can be accomplished in different ways, not necessarily borrowing from the EQ2-WoW-RIFT gear-centric model.

What we are against is anything that negatively impacts the entire balance of the game (PvE / WvW) by producing gear that can only be gained via a specific playstyle, which would force people into a playstyle they do not enjoy. To have gear create an imbalance and then say “don’t particpate” is naive.

We are against game design that produces an arbitrary have-have nots dichotomy which rewards one particular playstyle over another and consequently fosters the grotesque set of cultural behavior among the immature that seems to proliferate through games that embrace this dichotomy.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

This is why people want to insist on cosmetic rewards such as titles, gear models, achievements, et cetera.

And is that really so bad? It’s worked for EIGHT years for GW1…so apparently it’s doing something right.

Nope. Not saying it’s bad, or good even. I mean, that’s what I would want, but then again . . .

. . . I’m still banging my head against a post-game bonus boss in Digital Devil Saga for a shiny item I might not even NEED in the second part. Why? Because it’s there, but oh my gods and angels it required a lot of grind. A lot. No, more than that.

ASB.4295:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

They don’t want to feel they must do this content to stay competitive. They’d like to choose not to do it, and not be at a disadvantage. It’s not just about stats either!

Bolded the important part. Even if the advantages of better gear or tools would be next to non existent, these players feel pressured into going for those things despite actually wanting to work towards something else. Titles, cosmetics, horizontal stuff.
These players won’t be able to enjoy going for things they like until the nagging voice in the back of their head constantly whispering “…you could be as efficient as everybody else if you did the other content instead…”
Just as a lot of players crave the need for constant improvement and progression, there are players that crave a feeling of not wasting their time with trivialities when they could go for better stats.

Those two mindsets are direct opposites of each other(at least on the stat level), and from what we have seen, the number of people wanting meaningful progression is… well, orders larger than the niche GW1 managed to satisfy.

Yeah . . . I get a response encapsulating this (not as nicely worded) when I say “Ascended gear is optional and not required”. Which is why I gave up trying to argue that point. It’s evident, but the fact people feel otherwise means it’s a lost cause trying to argue it.