Guild Wars 2

Zenith.7301:

devs are focused on their beloved e-sports balancing

I wish this would be the case
They play LoL in the office all day tho.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Kentaine.4692:

Splitting PvP/PvE skills is always in the games best interest if PvP is any good in the game. CoH is a bad counter example because its PvP was horrid from day one due to the fundamental design issue of having every active power cause you to root to your location. The decision to split them was still the correct one, however, because PvE was great and did not deserve to suffer for the splashing magikarp that was CoX PvP.

That is where we disagree. City of Heroes was designed from the ground up to be a PVE MMO. It was only later that PVP was introduced into the game. The PVP system originally worked just like the PVE system, which was a bit wonky but could be worked around, due to the forgiving potion system that was inspirations. Issue 6 is when the infamous split happened, which is what caused the majority of the PVP community to simply stop PVPing. The reason being that, get this: the PVP was actually fun in the game. Yes, it’s not a twitch based action combat system, but there was still the intensity and uncertainty of combat, as well as a myriad of different enemies and fighting styles you could face.

But the split ruined it in a couple of ways. First was the immersion breaking:, which was more important for the CoX community. Second was the new build requirements. Originally, when you built yourself for PVE you were already well built for PVP. But with everything working differently, you had to come up with a completely new build, along with a new set of enhancements for that build, as well as a new inspiration lineup to deal with the new mechanics. Third was that, to anyone entering into PVP for the first time, there was a massive learning curve that prevented new players from getting into the game. Issue 6 basically destroyed the game people were already having fun playing, and replaced it a new game that was vaguely CoH skinned.

To this day I say that CoX was murdered instead of dying off, but it is easy to see how the lack of PVP contributed to its death. PVP can vastly extend the life of a game because human opponents and strategies are always evolving and always interesting. It is much harder, if nigh impossible, to pin down an exact routine to deal with a human player. But, without a thriving PVP community, the game quickly becomes stale and repetitive.

Makai.3429:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I think you guys are horribly overreacting. I read the patch notes myself, and immediately though “From a PVE perspective, this doesn’t mean a darn thing for me”. The tweaks are minor and in the grand scheme mean little to nothing for any of the classes that were changed.

I take it you don’t play Mesmer, right? Persistence of Memory went from a six second reduction in phantasm recharge to three: and that’s under the most optimal settings. I wouldn’t call a 50 percent reduction minor.

It’s not just about this patch, either: it’s about the incremental shaving because of eSports: kind of a frog boiling in water scenario.

Oh I play mesmer alright. I take compounding power over persistence of memory, largely because I don’t shatter my phantasms enough to warrant a cooldown reduction. Whether I’m a mantra vanilla mesmer or a chronomancer, I keep my phantasms alive as long as possible. Both to do more long-run damage, and also to buff my teammates with alacrity and break bars with slow. I only shatter my phantasms when I’m going for a full continuum split burst, after which the phantasms are right back up again. But even in emergencies where I have to break a bar or become invulnerable, the timeframe between these moments is long enough that my phantasms have recharged anyway.

Persistence of memory basically means that, in the situation where I have both spawned a lot of phantasms and have chosen to shatter them while the skill is on cooldown, it now takes 3 seconds longer to get them back. Considering I’m never in such a position wherein 3 seconds on phantasm reduction would matter, I would call this change minuscule at best. It alters a trait that I don’t even use.

I don’t see why you’re against PvP/PvE split in GW2 then. PvP builds work great in PvE (I have even changed my PvE builds because I liked how they worked in PvP) due to the casual atmosphere of it, not the other way round as my PvE builds (which work great in PvE) can attest, so I don’t see that being an issue and the immersion is already a non-issue.

Basically that means a learning curve, but I don’t really see that being all too steep. Fundamentally the skills will act the same just with different numbers associated with them. On the other hand, if you aren’t referring to general PvE, well raids and ‘harder’ content already require or would prefer special skill sets which probably are already going to differ from your PvP builds anyway. The help provided to new players won’t change either, I’ve seen dozens of ‘new’ PvPers directed to wikis/videos on current metas. If learning the Meta is the steep curve, then that will be just as steep in a new PvP/PvE split balancing world.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Harper.4173:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I think you guys are horribly overreacting. I read the patch notes myself, and immediately though “From a PVE perspective, this doesn’t mean a darn thing for me”. The tweaks are minor and in the grand scheme mean little to nothing for any of the classes that were changed.

I say this every time this topic comes up: skill splits are what caused City of Heroes to fall. The change in how everything worked from PVE to PVP meant that it was a massive learning barrier that most players couldn’t be bothered with. “Why try to learn the entire game all over again just so I could fight some guys”? The answer was they didn’t, so the PVP community perished and the PVE community could barely keep the game afloat.

Seamless transition between modes is a good thing that should be strived for.

It’s not about this patch in particular – at least not for me.
It’s about the general way things are done in this game.
Look at the stability change that happened a while ago where stability was changed from a duration boon to a boon that has stacks. That change impacted WvW in a major way and ruined the fun of fights in WvW for months to come. Only recently did Anet do something to address it – further underlining that yes there was a problem that their own balance created.

And why was stability changed? Because of PvP -a completely different game type than WvW.

This sort of thing should not happen in the future!

PVP and WvW aren’t completely different game types. But regardless, splitting skills wouldn’t suddenly solve a competency issue Anet has. It just provides another outlet where things can go wrong.

Zenith.7301:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Kentaine.4692:

Here is the problem with balancing though. I have never seen a game balance well. They always go for the nerf bat and forget when you nerf something, something else needs to be increased. Take the Mesmer for example. Nerf their support abilities, but that better mean they get an increase to their DPS too. Ah, but this is how it works for PvE… GW2 balances around PvP. I’d love it if my Mesmer did more base damage after its support got nerfed, but since that would make them OP in PvP it isn’t going to happen. Hence why a split from PvP and PvE skills should happen.

Your perspective is confusing here. The whole point of nerfing something is that it is performing better than the other classes, and so it needs a reduction overall. If you nerf one thing, but then boost another to compensate, then you’re still stuck with the same class being overpowered.

Not really. Look at Druid for a prime example.

Were druids overpowered in raids? Not remotely, they can still be replaced by a Tempest if you desire.

Were smokescales really the breaking factor of what made a druid strong in raids? Not remotely.

If anything, pets SUCK in PvE. Ranger pets don’t benefit from food/pots or sigil/rune bonuses, they don’t scale their crit damage or condition damage/duration rating to the same high levels of the ranger, and most of those pets can’t even hit moving targets.

It’s part of the reason why power ranger DPS has been completely unviable, because a % of the damage they’re designed around doesn’t scale with the 5% stat difference of ascended, it does not share boons with the ranger without a trait, it does not benefit from consumables or equipment bonuses, and most of those pets do terrible DPS.

The best pets, the smokescale/cats, are the least garbage of the bunch and they STILL don’t place power ranger within the DPS range of the other classes. Let’s not even talk moas or bears, whose autoattacks hit for less than a burning tick from a power elementalist.

So why have ranger pets kept being nerfed constantly? PvP.

They actually had to give Druids Grace of the Land so groups would bother taking them instead of adding another Tempest.

In that way, CORE mesmer and CORE mesmer traits don’t need nerfing. Alacrity just needs to be shaved, and mesmer DPS needs to be brought UP.

But mesmer DPS will never be buffed because they refuse to split PvE/PvP.

In all of that, you haven’t explained why it is that the concept of “nerfs are for things that are OP and aren’t meant to be compensated for” is wrong somehow. Besides, I’ve seen mesmer DPS get buffed several times in the past.

That’s the thing, that trait simply wasn’t OP in PvE and if you are nerfing Persistence of Memory because of Alacrity and Quickness uptimes, you are nerfing the WRONG thing.

Harper.4173:

PvP and WvW aren’t completely different game types? Really?

One is a 5 v 5 STRUCTURED environment where all stats are equalized and players play for dominance over 3 standard objectives that are located in a small map for about 15 minutes.

The other is an X v X server-wide fight that has no stat equality – where each server can field any number of people at any time one one of the 4 maps available. The servers fight over numerous objectives over the course of a week.

They couldn’t be any more different. The only similarity is that you use the same characters are PvP and that you fight other human opponents.

Tactics, timings, strategies are completely different.

That aside – I fail to understand how you missed my point. If WvW balance was separate from PvP the whole “pirate ship” stale meta wouldn’t have been a thing because the stability change would have been exclusive to PvP.

Unless you run in zerg vs zerg it’s pretty similar, really. Small skirmishes and duels play out in the same way. Besides, there’s no proof that the stability changes still wouldn’t have hit WvW and PVE, even if they were split. It’s easy to come up with a reasoning for it: An outlet for additional PVE combat design, less reliance on boon stripping, the option to scale individual skills so you can have different intensities and durations of stability, etc. What you are championing as proof of the need of skill splits is at best a “what if” scenario.

Disagree on skirmishes.

For example, WvW abuses plenty of thief and mesmer stealth builds that simply are NOT seen insPvP due to stealth decapping features.

Similarly, bunker chronomancers and trap rangers might be a thing in sPvP due to the core nature of conquest — skills effective on a cap circle — but in WvW skirmishes where people don’t hold on to prioritizing the capping of 3 circles in a map, builds differ quite a bit.

Then you have WvW with exclusive rune/food interactions completely affecting the balance of some builds.

Thieves suffered in spvp where their crit cap was 60% bonus crit damage, but in WvW where the crit damage bonus can go beyond 110% thieves flourished. As have sword/warhorn and hammer/axe+mace warriors which would be laughed out of sPvP.

WvW pvp balance is extremely different from spvp just because of the stat and synergies allowed in that format vs the restrictions placed in spvp.

A thief in WvW can constantly play p/d or permastealth builds and constantly reset and profit, while such troll builds alongside PU mesmers gain no profit in spvp where the stealth hampers more than it helps.

Kentaine.4692:

I don’t see why you’re against PvP/PvE split in GW2 then. PvP builds work great in PvE (I have even changed my PvE builds because I liked how they worked in PvP) due to the casual atmosphere of it, not the other way round as my PvE builds (which work great in PvE) can attest, so I don’t see that being an issue and the immersion is already a non-issue.

Basically that means a learning curve, but I don’t really see that being all too steep. Fundamentally the skills will act the same just with different numbers associated with them. On the other hand, if you aren’t referring to general PvE, well raids and ‘harder’ content already require or would prefer special skill sets which probably are already going to differ from your PvP builds anyway. The help provided to new players won’t change either, I’ve seen dozens of ‘new’ PvPers directed to wikis/videos on current metas. If learning the Meta is the steep curve, then that will be just as steep in a new PvP/PvE split balancing world.

Well, that’s the thing. If PVE is a casual outlet, then there’s no need to split its skills. That’s why I say this entire thread is overreacting horribly: There isn’t some necessary benchmark that is now missed because persisting memory got a reduction. You’re not suddenly losing against enemies that you were once winning against. The desire to split the skills is born to deal with what are mild inconveniences at worst.

Having separate balance teams means two things. First, less updates because Anet has to devote resources to them (remember, this is the same company that can’t make legendary weapons), and second a continually growing schism between game modes. It’ll start out as only mildly different, but as the game continually updates, the divide between PVP and PVE will continue to grow.

Zenith.7301:

That’s the thing, that trait simply wasn’t OP in PvE and if you are nerfing Persistence of Memory because of Alacrity and Quickness uptimes, you are nerfing the WRONG thing.

That’s just getting lost in the details. If you have a problem with a specific change, that doesn’t suddenly change balance ideology.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Kentaine.4692:

Here is the problem with balancing though. I have never seen a game balance well. They always go for the nerf bat and forget when you nerf something, something else needs to be increased. Take the Mesmer for example. Nerf their support abilities, but that better mean they get an increase to their DPS too. Ah, but this is how it works for PvE… GW2 balances around PvP. I’d love it if my Mesmer did more base damage after its support got nerfed, but since that would make them OP in PvP it isn’t going to happen. Hence why a split from PvP and PvE skills should happen.

Your perspective is confusing here. The whole point of nerfing something is that it is performing better than the other classes, and so it needs a reduction overall. If you nerf one thing, but then boost another to compensate, then you’re still stuck with the same class being overpowered.

Here’s what I mean. Numbers are not real, merely an illustration of why pure nerf with no buff doesn’t work:

Balanced around 5 man theoretical DPS

Pre nerf:
4 DPS do 8K DPS with mesmer boon (6K without boon)
1 Mesmer does 333.3 DPS with boon (250 without boon)
Total: 8.333K DPS

5 DPS do 7.5K without the mesmer

Post nerf: Mesmer Boon nerfed by 50%
4 DPS do 7K DPS with Mesmer boon (6K without boon)
1 Mesmer does 291.7 DPS with boon (250 without boon)
Total: 7.291K DPS (why did we bring that mesmer again? Oh right, for the BOONS!)

5 DPS do 7.5 K without the mesmer.

Pre nerf the Mesmer was much more desireable in group content, post nerf they would make do but would prefer someone else. Thus, to keep it balanced and less over powering to have a mesmer on your team the mesmer’s base DPS should be raised to 500 to keep the 4 DPS 1 Mesmer team in line with the 5 DPS team. Not only does it balance the teams but it also then makes it easier for the Mesmer to solo. Upping the Mesmer’s output to 500 would put the total at 7.583K DPS (more than just pure DPS but not so much more to be considered ‘over powered’ because the team will also have to worry about Mesmer’s ability to stay alive to provide the constant boons).

If done that way it would not make raiding PvEers so annoyed, and would actually make the casual PvEer a lot happier to play their mesmer because it kills things quicker which means less chance of being killed. However this was not done because of one simple fact. Upping Mesmer damage would also up how much damage all Mesmers do (not just the one helping out in the raid) and would be OP in PvP because they do too much base damage alone now. Instead now the raiding mesmer AND the casual mesmer take a hit to their DPS and usefulness while the PvPer stays the same, more or less. Thus, splitting PvP from WvW and/or PvE would be beneficial because this could be done to make the Mesmer more viable in a grouped raid setting instead AND keep them where they are in PvP instead of just less desirable in all game modes.

Kentaine.4692:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Kentaine.4692:

Here is the problem with balancing though. I have never seen a game balance well. They always go for the nerf bat and forget when you nerf something, something else needs to be increased. Take the Mesmer for example. Nerf their support abilities, but that better mean they get an increase to their DPS too. Ah, but this is how it works for PvE… GW2 balances around PvP. I’d love it if my Mesmer did more base damage after its support got nerfed, but since that would make them OP in PvP it isn’t going to happen. Hence why a split from PvP and PvE skills should happen.

Your perspective is confusing here. The whole point of nerfing something is that it is performing better than the other classes, and so it needs a reduction overall. If you nerf one thing, but then boost another to compensate, then you’re still stuck with the same class being overpowered.

Here’s what I mean. Numbers are not real, merely an illustration of why pure nerf with no buff doesn’t work:

Balanced around 5 man theoretical DPS

Pre nerf:
4 DPS do 8K DPS with mesmer boon (6K without boon)
1 Mesmer does 333.3 DPS with boon (250 without boon)
Total: 8.333K DPS

5 DPS do 7.5K without the mesmer

Post nerf: Mesmer Boon nerfed by 50%
4 DPS do 7K DPS with Mesmer boon (6K without boon)
1 Mesmer does 291.7 DPS with boon (250 without boon)
Total: 7.291K DPS (why did we bring that mesmer again? Oh right, for the BOONS!)

5 DPS do 7.5 K without the mesmer.

Pre nerf the Mesmer was much more desireable in group content, post nerf they would make do but would prefer someone else. Thus, to keep it balanced and less over powering to have a mesmer on your team the mesmer’s base DPS should be raised to 500 to keep the 4 DPS 1 Mesmer team in line with the 5 DPS team. Not only does it balance the teams but it also then makes it easier for the Mesmer to solo. Upping the Mesmer’s output to 500 would put the total at 7.583K DPS (more than just pure DPS but not so much more to be considered ‘over powered’ because the team will also have to worry about Mesmer’s ability to stay alive to provide the constant boons).

If done that way it would not make raiding PvEers so annoyed, and would actually make the casual PvEer a lot happier to play their mesmer because it kills things quicker which means less chance of being killed. However this was not done because of one simple fact. Upping Mesmer damage would also up how much damage all Mesmers do (not just the one helping out in the raid) and would be OP in PvP because they do too much base damage alone now. Instead now the raiding mesmer AND the casual mesmer take a hit to their DPS and usefulness while the PvPer stays the same, more or less. Thus, splitting PvP from WvW and/or PvE would be beneficial because this could be done to make the Mesmer more viable in a grouped raid setting instead AND keep them where they are in PvP instead of just less desirable in all game modes.

That would mean that buffing other skills is necessary only if the OP class gets overnerfed. That in itself doesn’t mean that nerfs require counterbalance. It means that nerfs require precision.

Clearly the majority want the split in this thread in fact I don’t think anyone disagreed here, I really think it will work and anet will see much happier customers.

Zenith.7301:

Some day you’ll actually bother to split balancing for the kitten formats.

Actaully, some day they won’t because balance is so inconsequential to PVE in this game that it can be ignored with no consequence, other than players that complain about PVE balance regardless of what happens anyways.

I’m not against splitting but the reality is that if splitting was going to happen, it would have happened already.

Obtena.7952:

Zenith.7301:

Some day you’ll actually bother to split balancing for the kitten formats.

Actaully, some day they won’t because balance is so inconsequential to PVE in this game that it can be ignored with no consequence, other than players that complain about PVE balance regardless of what happens anyways.

I’m not against splitting but the reality is that if splitting was going to happen, it would have happened already.

Having to retool your gear because of eSports shenanigans isn’t what I’d call inconsequential – especially when the nerfs are directed at players who just have to click a button to change their setup. Putting off getting a particular legendary on a character because they might be too good in a separate game mode isn’t inconsequential. And need we repeat the truths Zenith explained when it comes to Ranger pets?

It has happened to some degree (Revealed duration and pet/minion/illusion/summon damage mitigation), which is just another weird inconsistency to add to the pile.

You’ve retooled you PVE gear because of PVP changes? I’m calling you out on that one. They don’t use the same gear, so why would anything BUT gear changed due to PVP affect the gear you use in PVE? PVE gear needs are determined by getting as much offense as you can with a little defense as you need. I’ve yet to see such a dramatic change due to PVP changes that would make anyone rethink that.

Besides, even if it did … it’s not really a reason to cry about it … games evolve, meta changes … to think you won’t want to adjust your gear because of game changes that happen in an MMO is nonsensical in the first place, regardless of where they happen. Any MMO veteran almost expects game changes to affect how they play, gear they use, etc…

Tentonhammr.7849:

Makai.3429:

TexZero.7910:

Forestnator.6298:

Splitting skills for PvP and PvE seems to be fine for most of you. It may not be an issue if you only play PvE. It also may not be an issue if you only play PvP.

It is indeed an issue if you play PvE and PvP and both with multiple classes. The required skill knowledge increases drastically and ends up frustrating.

Also remember how confusing and unclear this will be for new players.

Don’t think in that limited mind please: just form your point of only playing one mode.

Please speak for yourself. You might end up frustrated and confused, but lets be real here. To think all new players are mentally deficient is a bad way to go about setting precedence for “balance”.

Balance should be done around the high end of every mode of play. Yes, this increases the “burden of knowledge” but that ultimately creates a healthier state as people have more information as a whole.

Thank you. I find this coddling mentality demeaning to all players.

You mean the players who don’t know how CC works? Who can’t execute a breakbar against the Shatterer or any of the Wyverns? The overwhelming majority who spam buttons at any open world event? The fair number who do the same in pug fractals and dungeons and raids every single day? You really don’t think Anet has justification for dumbing down the game when people can’t even handle dodging?

The playerbase can blame itself for this as much as a lack of dev resources.

Have you considered at all that the influx of inept, facerolling players is due, at least partially if not entirely, to the dumbing down of the NPE and ANet’s repeated handling of the playerbase with kid gloves? When you make a game accessible to the lowest common denominator, that’s exactly the kind of crowd you’ll inevitably draw.

Let’s not devolve into elitist slogans, please.

A game can be accessible and still demanding in its endgame.

Just stick to my original point, which is that you’re destroying build diversity and perpetuating massive inequality in performance in PvE just to satisfy the current sPvP scapegoat.

And it’s a vicious cycle, because sPvP will never be balanced. There will always be some meta dominant build that they’ll want nerfed and PvE will pay the price for it.

The set of reasons to avoid splitting balance between game modes unless absolutely necessary is something like:

- It dramatically increases transition costs between modes of play, which are felt disproportionately by the least hardcore players (aka, those that are least likely to post on forums)

- It makes coding, testing, and otherwise maintaining the game quite a bit more difficult

- It encourages lazy balancing around specific encounters instead of demanding more robust balancing against other classes

- It tends to snowball on itself off of interaction effects; split skills interact differently with other skills, which have their balance impacted differentially as well.

- It tends to lead to a less healthy balance state overall, as skill power levels are not purely a result of context, and outliers are easier to spot in some game modes than others.

- It very quickly gets to a point where it makes a game much more difficult to balance, not easier.

That said, there are certainly cases where splitting skills or items is warranted – I’m not aware of any pressing balance problems where a split makes sense, but I’ve seen enough of them in other games to know that those situations do exist.

I am sympathetic to the costs imposed on players to re-gear after a balance patch (though I am suspicious of the argument, in that it only seems to pop up after nerfs and not after buffs). I am understanding, but not terribly sympathetic, to arguments centering around character power progression and nerfs feeling bad as a result – it is impossible to balance a game if the knob can only turn in one direction.

Ensign.2189:

- It dramatically increases transition costs between modes of play, which are felt disproportionately by the least hardcore players (aka, those that are least likely to post on forums)

It isn’t like the modes don’t already require to learn different things, anyway.
And i don’t particularly care, actually. I would just like for PvE to not get ruined again and again by another gameplay mode.

Ensign.2189:

- It makes coding, testing, and otherwise maintaining the game quite a bit more difficult

If it ends up having worthwhile results, it seems like a fair trade to me.

Ensign.2189:

- It encourages lazy balancing around specific encounters instead of demanding more robust balancing against other classes

Right now they’re lazily balancing around how people fight inside a small point. Case in example: turrets. Designed to defend and control areas, nerfed to the floor and got most of their traits removed in every mode because they happened to work in a mode where you’ve got to defend and control areas. Never made useful again. Go figure.

Ensign.2189:

- It tends to snowball on itself off of interaction effects; split skills interact differently with other skills, which have their balance impacted differentially as well.

Yeah, that’s how balancing works.

Ensign.2189:

- It tends to lead to a less healthy balance state overall, as skill power levels are not purely a result of context, and outliers are easier to spot in some game modes than others.

It can’t be less healthy than now, where things are balanced purely in a “defend a small circle” context, apart from exceptional cases.

Ensign.2189:

- It very quickly gets to a point where it makes a game much more difficult to balance, not easier.

Yeah, actually balancing two or three modes instead of balancing one and thinking that everything is fine would require some additional work.
It would also mean those other modes actually get balanced, unlike now.

Ensign.2189:

That said, there are certainly cases where splitting skills or items is warranted – I’m not aware of any pressing balance problems where a split makes sense, but I’ve seen enough of them in other games to know that those situations do exist.

Indeed, i doubt you would have made a post like this one if you had any understanding of how balancing over PvP made and still makes a ton of skills useless in any other mode.

Ensign.2189:

I am sympathetic to the costs imposed on players to re-gear after a balance patch (though I am suspicious of the argument, in that it only seems to pop up after nerfs and not after buffs). I am understanding, but not terribly sympathetic, to arguments centering around character power progression and nerfs feeling bad as a result – it is impossible to balance a game if the knob can only turn in one direction.

It is also impossible to balance a game if you keep thinking that everything will go well by nerfing and buffing everything according to how they work in a mode that ends up being hugely different from the rest of the game.
And indeed, balance in the rest of the game is horrible, with ton of skills being useless.

Zenith.7301:

You hired a raid team, why won’t you hire a PvE balance team, since it’s so obvious your current devs are focused on their beloved e-sports balancing at the expense of all other content?

This is such a shame because I feel if a PvE team, one focused on combat feel and impact, did the balancing we could have this really amazing combat by now.

Instead we have this wishy washy noncommital combat because oh noes esports. And somehow all the 20 players playing that and all the 40 watching it is the important part of the playerbase, no matter how badly tuned and pigeonholed most classes have become as a result of it.

Can we just admit sPvP was a nice experiment but is best removed? The minimal amount of players actually playing it mainline are an acceptable loss for paving the way to an actual class-rework providing actual balance. IMO. There’s tons of specialized 5v5 PvP games out there, hell it’s an entire genre!

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Harper.4173:

PvP and WvW aren’t completely different game types? Really?

One is a 5 v 5 STRUCTURED environment where all stats are equalized and players play for dominance over 3 standard objectives that are located in a small map for about 15 minutes.

The other is an X v X server-wide fight that has no stat equality – where each server can field any number of people at any time one one of the 4 maps available. The servers fight over numerous objectives over the course of a week.

They couldn’t be any more different. The only similarity is that you use the same characters are PvP and that you fight other human opponents.

Tactics, timings, strategies are completely different.

That aside – I fail to understand how you missed my point. If WvW balance was separate from PvP the whole “pirate ship” stale meta wouldn’t have been a thing because the stability change would have been exclusive to PvP.

Unless you run in zerg vs zerg it’s pretty similar, really. Small skirmishes and duels play out in the same way. Besides, there’s no proof that the stability changes still wouldn’t have hit WvW and PVE, even if they were split. It’s easy to come up with a reasoning for it: An outlet for additional PVE combat design, less reliance on boon stripping, the option to scale individual skills so you can have different intensities and durations of stability, etc. What you are championing as proof of the need of skill splits is at best a “what if” scenario.

I don’t know what WvW you’ve been playing but almost all WvW that’s even remotely serious is zerg vs zerg. I’m sorry – ZvZ is the reason people go to WvW. It’s the reason the fights are server-wide. Everything about WvW revolves around this concept.

SO when I say WvW – I say primarily ZvZ. Because that’s primarily what people go there to do and it’s also primarily what happens in WvW.

I also have to contradict you on the “small skirmishes and fights play out the same way” – no they do not.
First of all you can have a million buffs on you, food, and better gear than your opponent. Say we ignore that – say it’s equal – 90% of skirmishes in WvW end up with someone running away and the fight doesn’t even end.

WvW is not for small skirmishes ( as much as I’d like it to be). And you won’t have small skirmishes because most times people will fight and either disengage before they die or simply find they can’t kill each other and move on.
EIther that or a zerg or some other group runs by and kills the “skirmish” off quickly.

Besides, there’s no proof that the stability changes still wouldn’t have hit WvW and PVE, even if they were split.

What?
IF the changes had been split then WvW wouldn’t have received them – ergo better gameplay.
IF you mean I can’t prove they wouldn’t have made the same change across all game types regardless of split then I say to you : The very fact that they changed stability again to fix it in WvW proves that they didn’t intend to hit WvW the way they did with the initial change.

My point is: A change that was done for the sake of PvP – this was state by the devs ( apparently they wanted stability to have more play and counterplay) ended up negatively impacting a different are of the game which they acknowledged because they actually had to change it again to fix it.
Split balance would have avoided this.

Also – you do realize your PVE examples are jokes right? Where exactly do you use stability in PvE?
Do you use it in the open world?
Do you use it in dungeons?
Do you use it in Raids?

Where exactly is stability useful in PvE? Where exactly is it needed? Where did it need to be balanced?

Zenith.7301:

Disagree on skirmishes.

For example, WvW abuses plenty of thief and mesmer stealth builds that simply are NOT seen insPvP due to stealth decapping features.

Similarly, bunker chronomancers and trap rangers might be a thing in sPvP due to the core nature of conquest — skills effective on a cap circle — but in WvW skirmishes where people don’t hold on to prioritizing the capping of 3 circles in a map, builds differ quite a bit.

Then you have WvW with exclusive rune/food interactions completely affecting the balance of some builds.

Thieves suffered in spvp where their crit cap was 60% bonus crit damage, but in WvW where the crit damage bonus can go beyond 110% thieves flourished. As have sword/warhorn and hammer/axe+mace warriors which would be laughed out of sPvP.

WvW pvp balance is extremely different from spvp just because of the stat and synergies allowed in that format vs the restrictions placed in spvp.

A thief in WvW can constantly play p/d or permastealth builds and constantly reset and profit, while such troll builds alongside PU mesmers gain no profit in spvp where the stealth hampers more than it helps.

I don’t think he does much WvW. Or PvP.
I mean – look at this statement:

Unless you run in zerg vs zerg it’s pretty similar, really.

It’s like he doesn’t even WvW at all. He’s saying something along the lines of: “yeah WvW is totally similar to PvP – if you ignore the 90% of it that isn’t and nitpick that last 10% that might be somewhat similar – totally”.

And worst of all I have to point this out – me – who doesn’t even WvW that often but still manage to realize these are COMPLETELY different game types.

It’s like saying F1 formula and Off-road Rally are the same because they both use cars.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Kentaine.4692:

I don’t see why you’re against PvP/PvE split in GW2 then. PvP builds work great in PvE (I have even changed my PvE builds because I liked how they worked in PvP) due to the casual atmosphere of it, not the other way round as my PvE builds (which work great in PvE) can attest, so I don’t see that being an issue and the immersion is already a non-issue.

Basically that means a learning curve, but I don’t really see that being all too steep. Fundamentally the skills will act the same just with different numbers associated with them. On the other hand, if you aren’t referring to general PvE, well raids and ‘harder’ content already require or would prefer special skill sets which probably are already going to differ from your PvP builds anyway. The help provided to new players won’t change either, I’ve seen dozens of ‘new’ PvPers directed to wikis/videos on current metas. If learning the Meta is the steep curve, then that will be just as steep in a new PvP/PvE split balancing world.

Well, that’s the thing. If PVE is a casual outlet, then there’s no need to split its skills. That’s why I say this entire thread is overreacting horribly: There isn’t some necessary benchmark that is now missed because persisting memory got a reduction. You’re not suddenly losing against enemies that you were once winning against. The desire to split the skills is born to deal with what are mild inconveniences at worst.

Having separate balance teams means two things. First, less updates because Anet has to devote resources to them (remember, this is the same company that can’t make legendary weapons), and second a continually growing schism between game modes. It’ll start out as only mildly different, but as the game continually updates, the divide between PVP and PVE will continue to grow.

You continue to miss the point – just because this patch didn’t hit PvE or WvW too hard doesn’t mean split balancing should not exist. I gave you reasons too:
Past patches that resulted in a stale WvW meta for months – all for the sake of PvP.

Having separate balance teams also means longer lasting balance in one mode – because once it’s fairly balanced you don’t have to come back and fix it very often – since the changes you make to the other modes do not affect it.

Medusa.6438:

Tentonhammr.7849:

Makai.3429:

TexZero.7910:

Forestnator.6298:

Splitting skills for PvP and PvE seems to be fine for most of you. It may not be an issue if you only play PvE. It also may not be an issue if you only play PvP.

It is indeed an issue if you play PvE and PvP and both with multiple classes. The required skill knowledge increases drastically and ends up frustrating.

Also remember how confusing and unclear this will be for new players.

Don’t think in that limited mind please: just form your point of only playing one mode.

Please speak for yourself. You might end up frustrated and confused, but lets be real here. To think all new players are mentally deficient is a bad way to go about setting precedence for “balance”.

Balance should be done around the high end of every mode of play. Yes, this increases the “burden of knowledge” but that ultimately creates a healthier state as people have more information as a whole.

Thank you. I find this coddling mentality demeaning to all players.

You mean the players who don’t know how CC works? Who can’t execute a breakbar against the Shatterer or any of the Wyverns? The overwhelming majority who spam buttons at any open world event? The fair number who do the same in pug fractals and dungeons and raids every single day? You really don’t think Anet has justification for dumbing down the game when people can’t even handle dodging?

The playerbase can blame itself for this as much as a lack of dev resources.

Have you considered at all that the influx of inept, facerolling players is due, at least partially if not entirely, to the dumbing down of the NPE and ANet’s repeated handling of the playerbase with kid gloves? When you make a game accessible to the lowest common denominator, that’s exactly the kind of crowd you’ll inevitably draw.

To that Anet would invariably reply with if they can play they can pay.

Harper.4173:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Harper.4173:

PvP and WvW aren’t completely different game types? Really?

One is a 5 v 5 STRUCTURED environment where all stats are equalized and players play for dominance over 3 standard objectives that are located in a small map for about 15 minutes.

The other is an X v X server-wide fight that has no stat equality – where each server can field any number of people at any time one one of the 4 maps available. The servers fight over numerous objectives over the course of a week.

They couldn’t be any more different. The only similarity is that you use the same characters are PvP and that you fight other human opponents.

Tactics, timings, strategies are completely different.

That aside – I fail to understand how you missed my point. If WvW balance was separate from PvP the whole “pirate ship” stale meta wouldn’t have been a thing because the stability change would have been exclusive to PvP.

Unless you run in zerg vs zerg it’s pretty similar, really. Small skirmishes and duels play out in the same way. Besides, there’s no proof that the stability changes still wouldn’t have hit WvW and PVE, even if they were split. It’s easy to come up with a reasoning for it: An outlet for additional PVE combat design, less reliance on boon stripping, the option to scale individual skills so you can have different intensities and durations of stability, etc. What you are championing as proof of the need of skill splits is at best a “what if” scenario.

I don’t know what WvW you’ve been playing but almost all WvW that’s even remotely serious is zerg vs zerg. I’m sorry – ZvZ is the reason people go to WvW. It’s the reason the fights are server-wide. Everything about WvW revolves around this concept.

SO when I say WvW – I say primarily ZvZ. Because that’s primarily what people go there to do and it’s also primarily what happens in WvW.

I also have to contradict you on the “small skirmishes and fights play out the same way” – no they do not.
First of all you can have a million buffs on you, food, and better gear than your opponent. Say we ignore that – say it’s equal – 90% of skirmishes in WvW end up with someone running away and the fight doesn’t even end.

WvW is not for small skirmishes ( as much as I’d like it to be). And you won’t have small skirmishes because most times people will fight and either disengage before they die or simply find they can’t kill each other and move on.
EIther that or a zerg or some other group runs by and kills the “skirmish” off quickly.

Besides, there’s no proof that the stability changes still wouldn’t have hit WvW and PVE, even if they were split.

What?
IF the changes had been split then WvW wouldn’t have received them – ergo better gameplay.
IF you mean I can’t prove they wouldn’t have made the same change across all game types regardless of split then I say to you : The very fact that they changed stability again to fix it in WvW proves that they didn’t intend to hit WvW the way they did with the initial change.

My point is: A change that was done for the sake of PvP – this was state by the devs ( apparently they wanted stability to have more play and counterplay) ended up negatively impacting a different are of the game which they acknowledged because they actually had to change it again to fix it.
Split balance would have avoided this.

Also – you do realize your PVE examples are jokes right? Where exactly do you use stability in PvE?
Do you use it in the open world?
Do you use it in dungeons?
Do you use it in Raids?

Where exactly is stability useful in PvE? Where exactly is it needed? Where did it need to be balanced?

Almost all serious WvW is zerg vs zerg lol. Remember that when I gank you running back to your zerg, you try to interrupt my duel and get killed or you show up at a tower or keep that I decided to defend/scout and your precious zerg has to run off to pvd something else.

As bad as pirate ship was hammer train was absolute cancer. It took Anet a while to get things fine tuned but stability is in a good place at the moment.

What you want would require a balancing team for each of the three modes which would take either 1) more time between balance patches or 2) developers pulled off of other projects. I would love to see a split between modes but I don’t care for either of the above options.

A balance team for each mode yes – but since each mode is balanced separately maybe it hasn’t occurred to you but each balance team could be smaller- because they have LESS to do.
So you could have the current balance team split in three – same number of people.

Also – if you think your ganking is of any real influence to WvW – you’re way out of it – or must play on some really bad servers.
If you play to win – scouting is THE only thing you’ve mentioned that’s of note – and even if you scout – you’ll still need your zerg to come and fight for you.
Not to mention scouting =/= pvp =/= actually fighting.

You assume that a split would require one of your two options. You might be right – but most likely are wrong.

Harper.4173:

I don’t know what WvW you’ve been playing but almost all WvW that’s even remotely serious is zerg vs zerg. I’m sorry – ZvZ is the reason people go to WvW. It’s the reason the fights are server-wide. Everything about WvW revolves around this concept.

It’s really not. Someone already commented on this though. Unless the server merge changed the environment drastically (which would be contradictory to when the stability changes actually occurred), there will still be solo roamers, havoc teams, and small groups of friends who run around to do things. The fact that the encounters are PVP is a more important factor than all the similarities between PVE and PVP combined. When a balance change is made in PVP, it has a mirrored effect in WvW, but little effect in PVE.

Harper.4173:

I also have to contradict you on the “small skirmishes and fights play out the same way” – no they do not.
First of all you can have a million buffs on you, food, and better gear than your opponent. Say we ignore that – say it’s equal – 90% of skirmishes in WvW end up with someone running away and the fight doesn’t even end.

Those are pretty meaningless. Miniscule stat advantages aside, back when I played WvW the opposite was true: 90% of skirmishes ended with someone dead. Whether it was by superior chase skills, or better burst, or getting bogged down with conditions, or the fight becomes a 2 vs. 1, in the end somebody was lying on the ground.

I get the very distinct feeling that you’re taking the experience on your server, with your preferred mode of play, with your builds, and imposing them upon the entirety of the WvW population.

Harper.4173:

What?
IF the changes had been split then WvW wouldn’t have received them – ergo better gameplay.

That’s the thing: there’s no proof of this. You need evidence to say that, if balance modes were split, that the WvW and PVE teams wouldn’t have also agreed upon stability changes. Given that there’s several reasons to put these changes into every game mode, as well as the characteristic “lack of foresight” on many design decisions, there exists the very real possibility that splitting the balance teams wouldn’t produced the same result. Maybe Anet thinks the hammer meta is cancer, too.

Harper.4173:

IF you mean I can’t prove they wouldn’t have made the same change across all game types regardless of split then I say to you : The very fact that they changed stability again to fix it in WvW proves that they didn’t intend to hit WvW the way they did with the initial change.

That doesn’t prove it at all. They very well could’ve intended to hit WvW, but only deemed it a problem after a sufficient “settling” period, or after receiving enough complaints about the change. They could’ve done it to split up ZvZ combat, but after everyone refused to change tactics Anet gave in and made ZvZ better.

Lets look at the timing of things. April 23rd , 2016 is when there was the “for WvW” stability change. Though this change isn’t exclusive to every mode, because in Anets own words: “While this change is primarily targeted toward WvW, it does also carry a positive note for the PvP and PvE game types as well. We’ll continue to monitor the effectiveness of this and address it where appropriate.”. The update that changed stability from a consistent boon to a stacking an removing boon occurred on March 16, 2015. Literally a whole year plus a whole month earlier. If the stability changes really had some type of unintended effect on WvW, then Anet sure did drag their feet to fix this unintended effect.

No, it is obvious: they meant for the change for all game modes, and it was only after a year of complaints that they changed their mind. And so, there is no evidence that split balance would have avoided this.

Harper.4173:

Also – you do realize your PVE examples are jokes right? Where exactly do you use stability in PvE?
Do you use it in the open world?
Do you use it in dungeons?
Do you use it in Raids?

Where exactly is stability useful in PvE? Where exactly is it needed? Where did it need to be balanced?

I use it in fractals. But you’re missing the point: the biggest problem with stability in PVE were the enemies. Stability was an inflexible boon to give to enemies, because it was all or nothing. You either had an enemy completely immune to hard CC, or you didn’t. Unless you were one of the few classes that had a good boon strip available, you were entirely subject to enemy stability. With the change, this meant that stability as a design option for enemies is now wide open. Every class can fight against and overpower stability, instead of a select few with a select few skills.

Harper.4173:

You continue to miss the point – just because this patch didn’t hit PvE or WvW too hard doesn’t mean split balancing should not exist. I gave you reasons too:
Past patches that resulted in a stale WvW meta for months – all for the sake of PvP.

Having separate balance teams also means longer lasting balance in one mode – because once it’s fairly balanced you don’t have to come back and fix it very often – since the changes you make to the other modes do not affect it.

Oh no, I never missed the point. I also never forgot the problems that arise from splitting balance, either. Throughout years of updates, the “convenience” point still stands.

The “longer lasting balance” thing is utterly false. Anet balances almost exclusively in PVP, and in the entirety of the game’s run not once has PVP been balanced. Adding more teams to other parts of the game would just make it so each game mode has its own unique frequent iterations of problems. The balance teams wouldn’t be smaller either: the entire balance team is dedicated almost solely to PVP, so additional mode focuses would require additional people.

Harper.4173:

A balance team for each mode yes – but since each mode is balanced separately maybe it hasn’t occurred to you but each balance team could be smaller- because they have LESS to do.
So you could have the current balance team split in three – same number of people.

Also – if you think your ganking is of any real influence to WvW – you’re way out of it – or must play on some really bad servers.
If you play to win – scouting is THE only thing you’ve mentioned that’s of note – and even if you scout – you’ll still need your zerg to come and fight for you.
Not to mention scouting =/= pvp =/= actually fighting.

You assume that a split would require one of your two options. You might be right – but most likely are wrong.

3 smaller balance teams would still be more manpower than 1 for all modes lumped together. I don’t really see how the smaller teams would have any less to do since Anet has stated that they want the meta to change on a regular basis.

My ganking does effect your reinforcements getting back to the fight whether I’m killing them or making a group mad enough to chase me across the map. If you need a zerg to defend then you must be on a really uncoordinated server. If you use a omniblob run everything over as a tactic you must be on a really uncoordinated server.

You have yet to give any reasonable way to make your split balancing work without effecting development of other areas of the game.

I’ve been arguing for this since day one. I play all game modes (less WvW now, but played a lot of it at one point) and I’m sick and tired of the balance being the WORST aspect of this game. Most of it could be solved if they split it into at least two different forms of balance (PVE and PVP/WVW). They play very differently and classes ususally end up suffering in one game mode because of something that has nothing to do with that form of play. It is definitely a reason why each game mode has acceptable classes to play at a given time, and ones that everyone rages against when people use them.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

It’s really not. Someone already commented on this though. Unless the server merge changed the environment drastically (which would be contradictory to when the stability changes actually occurred), there will still be solo roamers, havoc teams, and small groups of friends who run around to do things. The fact that the encounters are PVP is a more important factor than all the similarities between PVE and PVP combined. When a balance change is made in PVP, it has a mirrored effect in WvW, but little effect in PVE.

Sure they exist – but are they the core of WvW? I would say no.
Are they the majority? Again I would say no.
Are they the focus of WvW? Most likely not – since things have always been balanced around BIG groups and not small skirmish groups of 1-2-3-4-5 people.
So when I say WvW – I mean the majority of WvW – the core aspect of WvW. Go to the WvW forums – see what people do there.
Go in WvW – see what people do there – the vast majority will scout or zerg. Not everyone does – but most do – and that’s what defines the gametype.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Those are pretty meaningless. Miniscule stat advantages aside,

First of all buffs are not meaningless – I’m pretty sure they matter quite a bit. Ascended gear also matters.
For example Bowl of Lemongrass Poultry Soup will give you -20% condi duration – that matters – a lot. It’s BIS food. Having it or not having it might make a difference in a fight. Stack that with utilities – boosters and other things – and you’ll see they DO matter.
What about a movement speed booster? 15% – considering you can have that for free and not use a utility and trait I’d say it’s pretty strong.
Let’s not forget the damage booster – 5% is pretty strong – in fact one of the most widespread sigils in this game is 5% flat damage ( Force sigil) and you can basically have another one for free.
If you think these are meaningless – you’re wrong.
Go against a person with full buffs in BIS gear with BIS food and he’ll probably have an overal 20-25% stronger character just because of these “small things”.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

back when I played WvW the opposite was true: 90% of skirmishes ended with someone dead. Whether it was by superior chase skills, or better burst, or getting bogged down with conditions, or the fight becomes a 2 vs. 1, in the end somebody was lying on the ground.

When was that exactly? And what server was it on?
I’ve been on T1 servers in both EU ( at launch and 1 year after) and US ( ever since I moved from EU) and I can tell you roaming never worked like that unless your opponent was just bad.
Do you not remember the numerous threads of “warrior OP because they can run in WvW” and “stealth OP in WvW because you can reset fights 4 ever”?

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I get the very distinct feeling that you’re taking the experience on your server, with your preferred mode of play, with your builds, and imposing them upon the entirety of the WvW population.

I do take my experience because that’s what I’ve done and seen in WvW. And I’ve only played on servers that actually take WvW seriously.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

That’s the thing: there’s no proof of this. You need evidence to say that, if balance modes were split, that the WvW and PVE teams wouldn’t have also agreed upon stability changes. Given that there’s several reasons to put these changes into every game mode, as well as the characteristic “lack of foresight” on many design decisions, there exists the very real possibility that splitting the balance teams wouldn’t produced the same result. Maybe Anet thinks the hammer meta is cancer, too.

True – but the way I see it the evidence sure makes my side of the argument more realistic.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

That doesn’t prove it at all. They very well could’ve intended to hit WvW, but only deemed it a problem after a sufficient “settling” period, or after receiving enough complaints about the change. They could’ve done it to split up ZvZ combat, but after everyone refused to change tactics Anet gave in and made ZvZ better.

The fact that we’re not part of the balance team means we’ll never know – still you’re looking at it through what’s possible and not actually seeing what I’ve said is more than possible it’s actually plausible and probable.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

If the stability changes really had some type of unintended effect on WvW, then Anet sure did drag their feet to fix this unintended effect.

And they certainly don’t have a track record of breaking things and letting them rot? Or promising and not delivering. Does it seem unlikely that they would take long fixing something? Did they seem to you to be a “hop to it and fix it” kind of company?
-Dungeons
-Fractals
-New legendaries and new legendary types in 2013
-Fractal leaderboards
-Even farms like cursed shore fail event farming that were incredibly “toxic” ( or so the community says) and that were very very strong farms took them weeks to fix.

No, it is obvious: they meant for the change for all game modes, and it was only after a year of complaints that they changed their mind. And so, there is no evidence that split balance would have avoided this.

Sure – of course – by that logic them releasing HoT in the poor state it was in is clear evidence they didn’t want to sell it. Right?

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I use it in fractals. But you’re missing the point: the biggest problem with stability in PVE were the enemies. Stability was an inflexible boon to give to enemies, because it was all or nothing. You either had an enemy completely immune to hard CC, or you didn’t. Unless you were one of the few classes that had a good boon strip available, you were entirely subject to enemy stability. With the change, this meant that stability as a design option for enemies is now wide open. Every class can fight against and overpower stability, instead of a select few with a select few skills.

I’m sorry – where do you use it exactly? Where is stability useful in FOTM?
That aside – what enemies have stability? Where is stability on enemies a problem? When was it ever? The only problem was the defiant on bosses. That’s been changed to a break bar.
I’ve played this game a lot – I don’t remember stability being a problem on any mobs at any time. Perhaps you can point me in the right direction.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

The “longer lasting balance” thing is utterly false. Anet balances almost exclusively in PVP, and in the entirety of the game’s run not once has PVP been balanced. Adding more teams to other parts of the game would just make it so each game mode has its own unique frequent iterations of problems. The balance teams wouldn’t be smaller either: the entire balance team is dedicated almost solely to PVP, so additional mode focuses would require additional people.

You ignore the fact that if you stop balancing around PvP you can stop balancing once you reach a balanced state. It’s pretty simple really.
If you obtain good PvE balance once – provided you no longer change balance for PvP ( because of split) you don’t need to rebalance PvE over and over and over again. It stays how you left it. Get what I’m saying?

bloodletting wolf.2837:

Harper.4173:

A balance team for each mode yes – but since each mode is balanced separately maybe it hasn’t occurred to you but each balance team could be smaller- because they have LESS to do.
So you could have the current balance team split in three – same number of people.

Also – if you think your ganking is of any real influence to WvW – you’re way out of it – or must play on some really bad servers.
If you play to win – scouting is THE only thing you’ve mentioned that’s of note – and even if you scout – you’ll still need your zerg to come and fight for you.
Not to mention scouting =/= pvp =/= actually fighting.

You assume that a split would require one of your two options. You might be right – but most likely are wrong.

3 smaller balance teams would still be more manpower than 1 for all modes lumped together. I don’t really see how the smaller teams would have any less to do since Anet has stated that they want the meta to change on a regular basis.

My ganking does effect your reinforcements getting back to the fight whether I’m killing them or making a group mad enough to chase me across the map. If you need a zerg to defend then you must be on a really uncoordinated server. If you use a omniblob run everything over as a tactic you must be on a really uncoordinated server.

You have yet to give any reasonable way to make your split balancing work without effecting development of other areas of the game.

3 teams would require more manpower than one? HOW?
Let me explain this simply: 9 man team – split it into 3 teams of 3 men – you now have the manpower of 9 people into 3 teams. Same manpower – three times the groups.

Anet has stated they want the meta to change in regards to PvP – because of seasons and how they want them to not feel stale or boring.

The PvE meta for example has changed but very rarely – incredibly rarely to be precise.
For example – warrior – warrior in PvE has always been relegated to offensive group support – its meta role has never changed. It has improved or become weaker – but never changed.

Ele has always been ranged dps – that role never changed.

PvE meta will require balncing ONLY when new elite specs are released if you manage to balance it well once.
It’s not like they’re churning out TONS of content that requires that they change the balance of PvE so that it fits with the new content.

]My ganking does effect your reinforcements getting back to the fight whether I’m killing them or making a group mad enough to chase me across the map

Right – you kill one person every now and again – sure – effective.
Also – no serious group of decent WvW players would bother to chase you – where exactly are you people playing this stuff?

If you need a zerg to defend then you must be on a really uncoordinated server. If you use a omniblob run everything over as a tactic you must be on a really uncoordinated server.

I’m on JQ – we use multiple blobs – and we’re so uncoordinated we usually beat blobs twice our size. We’re just bad overall – teach us please.

You have yet to give any reasonable way to make your split balancing work without effecting development of other areas of the game.

You seem to not realize that balancing for WvW and PvE would be far less frequent than for PvP. Because they’re not supposed to have frequent meta shifts.

Kasteros.9847:

Emmm OP… Do u know who buys most gems for REAL money? PvPers and WvWers… So is is obvious that they will balance game for those players. PvE is just farm and grind so even with nerfs it is still over easy to kill NPC xDDDDD
Just deal with it for some time, like we(WvWers) did with kittenton of sPvP balance that affected WvW and fight for over a year till they bring it back( like we did with stabillity ^^). But… The problem is that PvErs don’t bring em as much money as PvPers do so… 0,001% chance
As for why PvErs bring em less money answer is simple: They farm gold, while competitive players don’t, so the only way for them is to buy gems with real money

Hogwash, as far as I know arenanet has never given those numbers. Cite some proof or quit talking out your rear

Disclaimer:
Not all e-sport people complain about a game and needs to be nerft. This is also a small rant on my part. If this offends anyone I’m sorry.

It seems to me like the e-sport people just say this class is over powered and needs to be nerft. It also needs to be nerft in WvW, PvP, and PvE. Becuse this Mesmer or Ranger is killing my elite spec warrior in two seconds and it shouldn’t happen.

To me the e-sport people just complain about everything in a game no matter what.

When ArenaNet announced that there taking the game to e-sports I was not thrilled at all.

Ensign.2189:

That said, there are certainly cases where splitting skills or items is warranted – I’m not aware of any pressing balance problems where a split makes sense, but I’ve seen enough of them in other games to know that those situations do exist.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4ft01q/qt_dps_benchmarkstests_for_all_classes/

an easy example of why pvp and pve should be split:
ele has been op af for over 3 years, especially when using staff and they recently buffed staff auto by 17%. why? because of pvp l0l 3sp0rtZ.

because of ele and thief op dps people dont wanna bring other classes. also druid buffs are way too strong. stronger than replacing one druid with another ele with its op dps could make up for.

the balance problems in pve caused by pvp focused balancing are as clear as the difference between day and night honestly.

also reading balance patch previews written purely from a pvp perspective (for example: rev sword singleing out enemies) makes me hate the whole situation even more.

Harper.4173:

bloodletting wolf.2837:

Harper.4173:

A balance team for each mode yes – but since each mode is balanced separately maybe it hasn’t occurred to you but each balance team could be smaller- because they have LESS to do.
So you could have the current balance team split in three – same number of people.

Also – if you think your ganking is of any real influence to WvW – you’re way out of it – or must play on some really bad servers.
If you play to win – scouting is THE only thing you’ve mentioned that’s of note – and even if you scout – you’ll still need your zerg to come and fight for you.
Not to mention scouting =/= pvp =/= actually fighting.

You assume that a split would require one of your two options. You might be right – but most likely are wrong.

3 smaller balance teams would still be more manpower than 1 for all modes lumped together. I don’t really see how the smaller teams would have any less to do since Anet has stated that they want the meta to change on a regular basis.

My ganking does effect your reinforcements getting back to the fight whether I’m killing them or making a group mad enough to chase me across the map. If you need a zerg to defend then you must be on a really uncoordinated server. If you use a omniblob run everything over as a tactic you must be on a really uncoordinated server.

You have yet to give any reasonable way to make your split balancing work without effecting development of other areas of the game.

3 teams would require more manpower than one? HOW?
Let me explain this simply: 9 man team – split it into 3 teams of 3 men – you now have the manpower of 9 people into 3 teams. Same manpower – three times the groups.

Anet has stated they want the meta to change in regards to PvP – because of seasons and how they want them to not feel stale or boring.

The PvE meta for example has changed but very rarely – incredibly rarely to be precise.
For example – warrior – warrior in PvE has always been relegated to offensive group support – its meta role has never changed. It has improved or become weaker – but never changed.

Ele has always been ranged dps – that role never changed.

PvE meta will require balncing ONLY when new elite specs are released if you manage to balance it well once.
It’s not like they’re churning out TONS of content that requires that they change the balance of PvE so that it fits with the new content.

]My ganking does effect your reinforcements getting back to the fight whether I’m killing them or making a group mad enough to chase me across the map

Right – you kill one person every now and again – sure – effective.
Also – no serious group of decent WvW players would bother to chase you – where exactly are you people playing this stuff?

If you need a zerg to defend then you must be on a really uncoordinated server. If you use a omniblob run everything over as a tactic you must be on a really uncoordinated server.

I’m on JQ – we use multiple blobs – and we’re so uncoordinated we usually beat blobs twice our size. We’re just bad overall – teach us please.

You have yet to give any reasonable way to make your split balancing work without effecting development of other areas of the game.

You seem to not realize that balancing for WvW and PvE would be far less frequent than for PvP. Because they’re not supposed to have frequent meta shifts.

T1 player. That explains it. From your posts I can tell that you have already made up your mind and nothing will change it. Have a nice day.

Harper.4173:

Sure they exist – but are they the core of WvW? I would say no.
Are they the majority? Again I would say no.
Are they the focus of WvW? Most likely not – since things have always been balanced around BIG groups and not small skirmish groups of 1-2-3-4-5 people.
So when I say WvW – I mean the majority of WvW – the core aspect of WvW. Go to the WvW forums – see what people do there.
Go in WvW – see what people do there – the vast majority will scout or zerg. Not everyone does – but most do – and that’s what defines the gametype.

Other than general imposing if your own playstyle, I’ll have to correct you on a few things here. First, WvW is basically never balanced around big groups. At all. Aside from the stability and wall changes, I can’t actually think of a single change that was done specifically to balance big group combat in WvW. This is because, by and large, balancing big group combat in WvW is silly. Once you get 30 vs. 30 going, it’s a numbers game, not a matter of class composition.

WvW was never meant to be as popular as it is. Anet’s systems couldn’t even handle the mass zerg. Likewise, the idea that everyone wants WvW to be big group vs. big group is false. There have been constant threads and suggestions throughout the entirety of GW2’s life about how to break up the zerg. Most of them bad, but those ideas wouldn’t keep popping up if all the players wanted to blob together.

Harper.4173:

First of all buffs are not meaningless – I’m pretty sure they matter quite a bit. Ascended gear also matters.

I’m sorry, but raising the stats of the players by 15% does not drastically change the field of play. It just makes the numbers bigger.

Harper.4173:

When was that exactly? And what server was it on?

Multiple servers. I can’t remember the first server, but eventually I transferred to Sanctum of Rall, saw both the rise and fall of that server, then transferred to dragonbrand. It was after the first tournament (when blackgate was 2 vs. 1 the entire fight) that I simply got bored of WvW. Regardless, “bad” doesn’t suddenly mean “doesn’t count”.

I do take my experience because that’s what I’ve done and seen in WvW. And I’ve only played on servers that actually take WvW seriously.

Well, you know what they say: no true scotsman would do such a thing.

Harper.4173:

True – but the way I see it the evidence sure makes my side of the argument more realistic.

The whole point of my posts is that no, “the way you see it” is not correct, or even “more realistic”.

The fact that we’re not part of the balance team means we’ll never know – still you’re looking at it through what’s possible and not actually seeing what I’ve said is more than possible it’s actually plausible and probable.

What you’re saying is not plausible or probable, though. It is a general feeling of certainty fueled solely by the lack of contrary evidence, not any sort of extrapolation or prediction.

Harper.4173:

And they certainly don’t have a track record of breaking things and letting them rot? Or promising and not delivering. Does it seem unlikely that they would take long fixing something? Did they seem to you to be a “hop to it and fix it” kind of company?

Far more so than you are implying. The thing with dungeons, and event farms, and bugs is that these issues were often extremely complicated issues. Dungeons were abandoned due to a lack of ROI on development time, bugs are prioritized by importance which causes some of the minor bugs to go by the wayside for long periods of time, fractal leaderboards were a dumb idea, legendary weapons apparently take forever to develop, etc. and so on..

But those problems, they end up fixed in weeks, not one year + one month. The stability change is a simple variable adjustment on the cooldown between consecutive stats, which while having great impact in the game is something that can be fixed in an afternoon. Therefore, since it wasn’t fixed in weeks or months or even within a year, the change was probably intended.

Harper.4173:

Sure – of course – by that logic them releasing HoT in the poor state it was in is clear evidence they didn’t want to sell it. Right?

Well, if they could fix the problems with HoT in an afternoon, then yes it would be.

Harper.4173:

I’m sorry – where do you use it exactly? Where is stability useful in FOTM?

Cliffiside, Thaumanova Reactor, heck even Aetherblade I use stability. It is surprisingly useful for stopping the hammer stun, avoiding random pulls from portals, or dealing with the pulls from the golems.

Harper.4173:

That aside – what enemies have stability? Where is stability on enemies a problem? When was it ever? The only problem was the defiant on bosses. That’s been changed to a break bar.

Enemies don’t have stability precisely because it is a problem. You can shave down stacks of defiance, but you have to strip stability. Thus, stability didn’t get used. However, now that stability can be muscled through, it is an option for future design choices.

Harper.4173:

You ignore the fact that if you stop balancing around PvP you can stop balancing once you reach a balanced state. It’s pretty simple really.
If you obtain good PvE balance once – provided you no longer change balance for PvP ( because of split) you don’t need to rebalance PvE over and over and over again. It stays how you left it. Get what I’m saying?

That is false. Firstly because you’re never going to achieve a perfect PVE balance state, either. Secondly, the PVE environment itself is dynamic, changing via various updates, so the balance of the classes in PVE are always subject to change. Third, there’s still going to be metas that focus heavily on certain content, and/or emphasize classes for reasons that are not actually true, so you’ll never actually know when PVE is in a balanced state.

Harper.4173:

3 teams would require more manpower than one? HOW?
Let me explain this simply: 9 man team – split it into 3 teams of 3 men – you now have the manpower of 9 people into 3 teams. Same manpower – three times the groups.

The workload doesn’t decrease just because there’s fewer people working on it. If it takes a 9 man team to make balance changes every 3 months, then for the same quality of work it would take a 3 man team 9 months.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Other than general imposing if your own playstyle, I’ll have to correct you on a few things here. First, WvW is basically never balanced around big groups. At all. Aside from the stability and wall changes, I can’t actually think of a single change that was done specifically to balance big group combat in WvW. This is because, by and large, balancing big group combat in WvW is silly. Once you get 30 vs. 30 going, it’s a numbers game, not a matter of class composition.

Balance comes not from just skills but also map design – the maps for example in WvW are balanced in order to encourage fights.
Also – one core design that you forget to mention is the number of targets cap on most skills in this game – both ones that do damage and ones that help allies – why do you think that cap is there?

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

WvW was never meant to be as popular as it is. Anet’s systems couldn’t even handle the mass zerg. Likewise, the idea that everyone wants WvW to be big group vs. big group is false. There have been constant threads and suggestions throughout the entirety of GW2’s life about how to break up the zerg. Most of them bad, but those ideas wouldn’t keep popping up if all the players wanted to blob together.

WvW is not popular – It was at its height after release and has done less good ever since with the exception of the seasons (but those were a karma train so..).
Anet never anticipated the zergs would be so common and would emerge the nr.1 strategy in WvW but have realized they can’t exactly change it without making the game really unfun in a lot of ways.
I also agree that smaller group content would be fun in PvP but that doesn’t blind me to the fact that serious WvW is zerg WvW and that most people going there now are looking for that – because the others have mostly dropped out long ago.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I’m sorry, but raising the stats of the players by 15% does not drastically change the field of play. It just makes the numbers bigger.

I gave you a very detailed example where stats are raised ( ascended) and other utilities are applied ( movement speed, 5% damage , 5% armor reduction, -20% condi duration, etc).
If you don’t understand that bigger numbers do change the field of play significantly then please enlighten me on this:
When PvP is balanced why is it that more often than not skill reductions or increases in damage are in the 10-15-20% range?

If you meet another player in WvW – both of equal skill and roaming – that 15-20% might be the edge you need to win. Of course you can’t accept that because it doesn’t suit your narrative but try at least to consider it. It’s like you stopped reading right after that quote you took and didn’t look at the rest of it.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

What you’re saying is not plausible or probable, though. It is a general feeling of certainty fueled solely by the lack of contrary evidence, not any sort of extrapolation or prediction.

Of course it isn’t – after all if you don’t agree then I must be wrong.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Far more so than you are implying. The thing with dungeons, and event farms, and bugs is that these issues were often extremely complicated issues. Dungeons were abandoned due to a lack of ROI on development time, bugs are prioritized by importance which causes some of the minor bugs to go by the wayside for long periods of time, fractal leaderboards were a dumb idea, legendary weapons apparently take forever to develop, etc. and so on..

The point still stands though – throughout their history Anet have been incredibly slow at doing what they should be – taking their sweet time with absolutely everything they do deliver – and sometimes not delivering at all.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

But those problems, they end up fixed in weeks, not one year + one month. The stability change is a simple variable adjustment on the cooldown between consecutive stats, which while having great impact in the game is something that can be fixed in an afternoon. Therefore, since it wasn’t fixed in weeks or months or even within a year, the change was probably intended.

What you’re saying is not plausible or probable, though. It is a general feeling of certainty fueled solely by the lack of contrary evidence, not any sort of extrapolation or prediction.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Cliffiside, Thaumanova Reactor, heck even Aetherblade I use stability. It is surprisingly useful for stopping the hammer stun, avoiding random pulls from portals, or dealing with the pulls from the golems.

Alright – but apart from the random pulls from portals everything else you can dodge – you know that right? And you need a stunbreak for the hammer stun.
Honestly I get it – some people need it in FOTM – but outside FOTM? Is stability really a thing in PvE?

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Enemies don’t have stability precisely because it is a problem. You can shave down stacks of defiance, but you have to strip stability. Thus, stability didn’t get used. However, now that stability can be muscled through, it is an option for future design choices.

Except mobs ( not champs) also have break bars.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

That is false. Firstly because you’re never going to achieve a perfect PVE balance state, either. Secondly, the PVE environment itself is dynamic, changing via various updates, so the balance of the classes in PVE are always subject to change. Third, there’s still going to be metas that focus heavily on certain content, and/or emphasize classes for reasons that are not actually true, so you’ll never actually know when PVE is in a balanced state.

This is misleading.
First of all a perfect state is never reached in anything. But you can reach a “pretty balanced” state where people are used to the game and aren’t complaining and then very rarely and in small increments change and ajust that.
PvE is dynamic? How? I did agree it changes when new elite specializations come out – but aside from that it would only change with:

-New weapon types added
-New skills added
-New content added
-New runes/sigils added
-New gear types added
-New classes / elite specs added

How often does this happen? Does this seem to happen with an alarming frequency in GW2? And even when it does – it’s usually less than a handful new things.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

The workload doesn’t decrease just because there’s fewer people working on it. If it takes a 9 man team to make balance changes every 3 months, then for the same quality of work it would take a 3 man team 9 months.

But they’re not doing the same amount of work because they’re not balancing the same number of game types.

ArenaNet’s decision to balance around PVP and not to use the tools they have – different balance between game modes – is pretty much ignorant and dumb. Raids were already hard as they were, now they are even harder. Using traited skills in PVE is not fun at all.

My examples:
DH’s traps do 0,5 sec daze….like really???? One second is already low enough for PVE. Dragon’s Maw has 60 seconds cooldown – the sweetspot was the cooldown present at the lauch (around 45 sec). Feel My Wrath has also too long CD for PVE combat, not mentioning other skills. Elite skill shouldn’t mean you use it once in 2-3 minutes, but rather something that you use and the mobs are like: “oh, kitten!! ruun” :P
Meanwhile, half of guardians skills *cough*spiritweapons*cough* are next to useless.

Revenant: ah, so where to start here? hmm… okay:
Shiro nerfed to oblivion for no reason. Damage output is kittenty as ever
Mallyx condi damage low
Dwarf – not too bad, but those circling hammers are bugged – they disappear if they hit some wall like the pillar at VG fight
Glint – this healing skills is the weakest I’ve ever seen. Almost no regen and no heal if used…it is an utter garbage. Elite skill has cast too slow for something that does so low CC and is so easily dodgeable even by mobs. Plus, the energy costs are too high
Ventari – this just doesn’t wark at all…. clunky movement of the ventari tablet, costs of skills too high
Overall damage output – so small you are basically just a boon bot on glint. You can’t use Ventari because you would do even less damage, you can’t be condi DPS because it is just too weak.
(btw, please fix sword damage already, and remove swap button on underwater weapon)

Obtena.7952:

You’ve retooled you PVE gear because of PVP changes? I’m calling you out on that one. They don’t use the same gear, so why would anything BUT gear changed due to PVP affect the gear you use in PVE? PVE gear needs are determined by getting as much offense as you can with a little defense as you need. I’ve yet to see such a dramatic change due to PVP changes that would make anyone rethink that.

Besides, even if it did … it’s not really a reason to cry about it … games evolve, meta changes … to think you won’t want to adjust your gear because of game changes that happen in an MMO is nonsensical in the first place, regardless of where they happen. Any MMO veteran almost expects game changes to affect how they play, gear they use, etc…

Thanks, I needed a good laugh!

It’s really obvious that the PvP crowd is not seeing the PVE’s issue here.
Guess what? The requested change doesn’t affect PvP. No PvP player will get upset over loosing gear to a balance change because PvP gear is free.

In PvE we spend a lot of time gathering resources so we can improve and eventually max out our crafting skills. Then we spend a lot more time gathering resources again to actually craft a weapon. Since this balance pass affects mesmer, lets talk ranger.
Some Rangers went through that gathering and crafting process and eventually crafted an ascended shortbow. In my case, about 2 weeks later a balance pass made the shortbow totally unusable entirely because of how it was used in PvP. So, it has sat in my inventory for years. Now that a whimsical balance pass made conditions worthwhile again it might actually get used.

There is an enormous difference in how we obtain gear in both game modes. To me, it’s more important to protect the value of what we have achieved in the game, than it is to balance one game mode regardless of what it destroys in the other two modes.

Kasteros.9847:

Emmm OP… Do u know who buys most gems for REAL money? PvPers and WvWers… So is is obvious that they will balance game for those players. PvE is just farm and grind so even with nerfs it is still over easy to kill NPC xDDDDD
Just deal with it for some time, like we(WvWers) did with kittenton of sPvP balance that affected WvW and fight for over a year till they bring it back( like we did with stabillity ^^). But… The problem is that PvErs don’t bring em as much money as PvPers do so… 0,001% chance
As for why PvErs bring em less money answer is simple: They farm gold, while competitive players don’t, so the only way for them is to buy gems with real money

Im assuming you have no source for this information and as such, your entire comment is invalid.

I have been wondering if the selective nerfs are part of a slight shift toward establishing / controlling profession roles. Perhaps a long term strategy is to force more mix in PvE by lowering some professions’ capacity in specific roles. Of course, this only works with newer or reworked content.

It just seems like the old mantra of all professions being able to play all roles has not been heard much recently. It never really worked completely, anyway, but profession updates seem targeted toward a development goal.

Tumult.2578:

Obtena.7952:

You’ve retooled you PVE gear because of PVP changes? I’m calling you out on that one. They don’t use the same gear, so why would anything BUT gear changed due to PVP affect the gear you use in PVE? PVE gear needs are determined by getting as much offense as you can with a little defense as you need. I’ve yet to see such a dramatic change due to PVP changes that would make anyone rethink that.

Besides, even if it did … it’s not really a reason to cry about it … games evolve, meta changes … to think you won’t want to adjust your gear because of game changes that happen in an MMO is nonsensical in the first place, regardless of where they happen. Any MMO veteran almost expects game changes to affect how they play, gear they use, etc…

Thanks, I needed a good laugh!

It’s really obvious that the PvP crowd is not seeing the PVE’s issue here.
Guess what? The requested change doesn’t affect PvP. No PvP player will get upset over loosing gear to a balance change because PvP gear is free.

In PvE we spend a lot of time gathering resources so we can improve and eventually max out our crafting skills. Then we spend a lot more time gathering resources again to actually craft a weapon. Since this balance pass affects mesmer, lets talk ranger.
Some Rangers went through that gathering and crafting process and eventually crafted an ascended shortbow. In my case, about 2 weeks later a balance pass made the shortbow totally unusable entirely because of how it was used in PvP. So, it has sat in my inventory for years. Now that a whimsical balance pass made conditions worthwhile again it might actually get used.

There is an enormous difference in how we obtain gear in both game modes. To me, it’s more important to protect the value of what we have achieved in the game, than it is to balance one game mode regardless of what it destroys in the other two modes.

Emphasis on whimsical because of how scatter shot a lot of these changes are. Sure, my Flameseeker Prophecies looks nice on my Mesmer today, but what about next week? If they just locked PvE stuff and balanced only when new elite specs come out, I wouldn’t have to second guess going on my so-called legendary journey.

You’re not describing something that’s uniquely limited to PVP changes … you might not like Shield on your Mesmer for PVE changes as well … or WvW for that matter. If you aren’t willing to rethink you’re builds when the game changes, you shouldn’t even be playing MMO’s … they change ALL the time.

I mean, what would you do if they did a PVP change and it affected your PVP build and skins choice? These things are INEVITABLE in MMO’s. They aren’t the exception, they are the regular occurrence. If you can’t accept the risk of crafting a legendary that you think you might not be using in the future because of game changes … you have a choice.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Enemies don’t have stability precisely because it is a problem. You can shave down stacks of defiance, but you have to strip stability. Thus, stability didn’t get used. However, now that stability can be muscled through, it is an option for future design choices.

You can also wait out stability if it’s not a permanent boon, and you CAN strip or corrupt it.

Obtena.7952:

You’re not describing something that’s uniquely limited to PVP changes … you might not like Shield on your Mesmer for PVE changes as well … or WvW for that matter. If you aren’t willing to rethink you’re builds when the game changes, you shouldn’t even be playing MMO’s … they change ALL the time.

I mean, what would you do if they did a PVP change and it affected your PVP build and skins choice? These things are INEVITABLE in MMO’s. They aren’t the exception, they are the regular occurrence. If you can’t accept the risk of crafting a legendary that you think you might not be using in the future because of game changes … you have a choice.

^^^ This.