Guild Wars 2

Well that burst my bubble pretty fast.

I’m-a gonna keep giving you feedback though, with many others, I try to do it in a constructive manner, I hope you guys realize that there are things not right with your updates to the leveling system.

Errant Venture.9371:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Traveller.7496:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

There are definitely bugs and some external miscommunication with the system and I want to listen some more before discussing.
Chris

This is interesting.

Chris is saying there has been external miscommunication about the new system. Could it be that you guys realize you went too far with the removing of functions and level gating it too extreme, and it was not supposed to dumb down the game quite this much?

Hi Traveller,

No not really. I m referring to some videos etc that aren’t quite factually correct in all areas and thus there are some misconceptions being propagated by those that have not played the through NPE yet.

Chris

Do you have a response to reviews from big gaming media outlets (like PC Gamer) who are posting poor reviews of the new leveling system?

I wouldn’t bet on him providing one, since it would be a personal opinion rather than ANet’s official stance.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

So the question now is the current environment conducive to starting a CDI or should I wait a few days?

Chris

If I had any faith in the community I’d say start asap. As I dont… maybe Friday would be better ^^;;;;

Chris Whiteside.6102:

So the question now is the current environment conducive to starting a CDI or should I wait a few days?

Chris

I think it depends on the topic. A CDI on guilds seems a bit superficial right now, when the major concern of the community appears to be the massive changes to the leveling system.

Things like level-gating resource gathering, salvaging and skill points; the issues with the new compass directing brand new players to high end zones; and preventing players from having full access to their class’s abilities until they’re halfway done leveling all seem like far more pressing issues at the moment

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Traveller.7496:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

There are definitely bugs and some external miscommunication with the system and I want to listen some more before discussing.
Chris

This is interesting.

Chris is saying there has been external miscommunication about the new system. Could it be that you guys realize you went too far with the removing of functions and level gating it too extreme, and it was not supposed to dumb down the game quite this much?

Hi Traveller,

No not really. I m referring to some videos etc that aren’t quite factually correct in all areas and thus there are some misconceptions being propagated by those that have not played the through NPE yet.

Chris

Well I have watched my wife play through a good chunk of it and heard the quiver in her voice as she saw her favorite part of the game completely destroyed so you’ll have to forgive me if I think misconceptions is not quite the right phrase and propagating partial information is not something anyone at Anet should use in demonizing outside sources because you’ve done your own fair share of it!

If you are proud of what your team has done like you said, then you have no reason to worry about the `current environment´ Chris.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

So the question now is the current environment conducive to starting a CDI or should I wait a few days?

Chris

Aedelric.1287:

If you are proud of what your team has done like you said, then you have no reason to worry about the `current environment´ Chris.

I still want to advocate “infinite postponement” since any CDI is going to get overrun right now with stuff not on topikittenil the topic burns up and dies.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Traveller.7496:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

There are definitely bugs and some external miscommunication with the system and I want to listen some more before discussing.
Chris

This is interesting.

Chris is saying there has been external miscommunication about the new system. Could it be that you guys realize you went too far with the removing of functions and level gating it too extreme, and it was not supposed to dumb down the game quite this much?

Hi Traveller,

No not really. I m referring to some videos etc that aren’t quite factually correct in all areas and thus there are some misconceptions being propagated by those that have not played the through NPE yet.

Chris

You mean this one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35BPhT-KI1E#t=95

Chris Whiteside.6102:

So the question now is the current environment conducive to starting a CDI or should I wait a few days?

Chris

Maybe a few days would let the forum base calm down a bit, but I dunno if it will matter that much. I’m pretty interested to see this get off the ground already, and it would be a shame if a bunch of rude people mucked it up.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

So the question now is the current environment conducive to starting a CDI or should I wait a few days?

Chris

Aedelric.1287:

If you are proud of what your team has done like you said, then you have no reason to worry about the `current environment´ Chris.

I still want to advocate “infinite postponement” since any CDI is going to get overrun right now with stuff not on topikittenil the topic burns up and dies.

Very true and I 100% agree.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

So the question now is the current environment conducive to starting a CDI or should I wait a few days?

Chris

Starting a CDI now is always a good thing. But since the CDI will be about guilds, I think the thread will be trashed by people who are outraged about the recent feature patch. But that’s just my 2 cents.

Starting a CDI? Good
Starting a CDI about guilds while the forum is talking about something way different? Not a good idea.

But that’s just my opinion, I think the CDI that was intended for guild talk will bare its fruit more if you wait a couple of days

Chris, as a developer, do you see any changes being done to the new leveling system after having seen the community response to it? Also, if you haven’t already seen it, I would go ahead and take a look at Magical Mike’s newest video(you can find it easily on the top post of the GW2 subreddit). I feel it accurately shows the new features being pushed out for the new leveling experience from both a vet and a new player standpoint.

As politely as possible, I would like to make my desire for a way for more experienced players to bypass some of these ability locks in a more timely fashion known.

I would also like to complain about being unable to interact with low level skill challenges when I’m of a perfectly acceptable level to defeat them.

I would like to comment that I should not have had to go to reddit to read loose translations of screenshots of the chinese client in order to get full details on when, exactly, my ‘9’ key was going to be unlocked on a new alt post patch – level 35, btw.

I understand a positive, boisterous spin on the changes in the initial announcement. But why does the reality always seem to turn out worse than implied with these things?

Communication isn’t skipping telling us the parts that you know are going to cause the most consternation.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

So the question now is the current environment conducive to starting a CDI or should I wait a few days?

Chris

I would say start it now. It would be a sign of good faith on your part. It would show that we really do matter, and that you are sticking to your word. That in and of itself will have much more of a positive impact, then waiting until things cool down. Just be sure to make it VERY clear that the other issues and things to be discussed are not being forgotten, or swept under the rug, and will be adressed as soon as possible.

I say bring the CDI, people have wanted better communication with Arena Net for a while now and delaying that is more harmful than have people attempt to derail the CDI.

Anyway, you have moderators for a reason.

Errant Venture.9371:

I think it depends on the topic. A CDI on guilds seems a bit superficial right now, when the major concern of the community appears to be the massive changes to the leveling system.

Things like level-gating resource gathering, salvaging and skill points; the issues with the new compass directing brand new players to high end zones; and preventing players from having full access to their class’s abilities until they’re halfway done leveling all seem like far more pressing issues at the moment

Let’s not forget that the trait system is still horrendous, the feature patch just added to how much people hate levelling.

I agree that a CDI on the feature patch changes to levelling and previous changes to traits (though I think the community has spoken on both) would be a good idea now. Guild stuff, while incredibly important and overlooked for waaaaaay to long, isn’t what people are thinking about currently.

Also, given how important it was in kicking off the communication, can we please have word on SAB?

Start a a CDI about the leveling system instead, or better yet, about changes to the leveling system so it can include the trait updates too.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

So the question now is the current environment conducive to starting a CDI or should I wait a few days?

Chris

Chris I am worried that the current state of the community from the disappointment from the feature patch will derail any worthwhile information that could be provided for the CDI.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

So the question now is the current environment conducive to starting a CDI or should I wait a few days?

Chris

Waiting any more is just going to drive an even deeper and wider wedge into everything.

The time for waiting passed long, long ago. The time to act is now.

Perhaps this is an example of not waiting too long to start something. If you had started it a week ago, like you originally said, it’d be done by now, and you wouldn’t have to worry about it being derailed. I also wonder why you didn’t think that we’d care more about whatever the feature patch introduced and less about future guild management options.

Aeromu.9134:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

So the question now is the current environment conducive to starting a CDI or should I wait a few days?

Chris

Chris I am worried that the current state of the community from the disappointment from the feature patch will derail any worthwhile information that could be provided for the CDI.

Any worthwhile information will be disregarded anyways.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Cool I agree. After this meeting I will finish my doc and then lets get on with the CDI.

Chris

On which topic though? It seems that a CDI on the topic of guilds would be an exercise in futility at the moment, when one of the most apparent concerns of the forum-going members of the community appears to be the changes to the leveling system (particularly the level-gating of basic functions like skill challenges, POIs, salvaging, harvesting, diving goggles, etc.)

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Templar.4512:

Chris, you may be proud, but there’s been an uproar lately with the latest changes. You’ve also ignored the many complaints about the last ‘feature pack’.

I know you’re required to say those PR things, but are you honestly proud of the amazing team? These guys haven’t even put out half the content other teams managed to, and that’s having taken into account the many skins from the gemstore.

Yes absolutely I am proud of this team. I am sorry that you don’t agree.

This group of ladies and gentlemen has put out amazing content at an amazing rate.

And no i am not talking any PR I am a developer.

So to be clear, yes i am proud of this team, i am proud of our work, i am proud of how we support each other, i am proud of how much we care for the game and the community. You can twist that statement as much as you like but that is my stance.

Chris

I don’t have a dog in this fight. Having said that I also know that only a small percentage of current players actively post in the forums compared to the larger percentage who don’t.

What I do know is that you and your team have all the data in front of you within any number of databases. A few simple queries prior to the patch will give you a baseline. Take those same couple of queries and run them weekly post patch and then compare and contrast. I think that data will yield enough information to quiet this storm and do the right thing.

Personally speaking because that is what I do for a living, I’m interested in the data pre and post patch. I’d be interested to see how the various meta’s of play break down, most to least boss kills, dungeons cleared, and puzzles jumped. I’d like to know point spread vs. wall clock coverage in server match-ups for WvW, and I would like to see population number across the board.

Just me and my $0.02 worth.

We are trying our best to communicate with you or with anyone who will listen. Right now my favorite part of the game has been gutted. Well and truly gutted. Yes, we need communication but we need it about the issues and concerns that have covered the front page of this forum.

Edit: Well, I see that while I typed the decision was made. That is really disappointing to see. The CDI was re-introduced because of a backlash of complaints about non-communication. How is communicating on a topic agreed upon before we were aware of what happened to us yesterday really communicating at all? It is almost the opposite of the original intention. <sigh> or maybe not

Majuub.6215:

Aeromu.9134:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

So the question now is the current environment conducive to starting a CDI or should I wait a few days?

Chris

Chris I am worried that the current state of the community from the disappointment from the feature patch will derail any worthwhile information that could be provided for the CDI.

Any worthwhile information will be disregarded anyways.

If you really believe that, why are you even here . . . ?

Chris Whiteside.6102:

We are keenly looking at all the feedback and will continue to do so.

I am focusing on trying to get the CDI out today as I am already late )-:

Chris

Just as keenly as you all looked at the feedback on traits? Then had one of you come in about page 42 asking for suggestions? Had you guys been ‘keenly looking at all feedback’ that would not have been said, because the suggestions were there. He even admitted it was too much to look through all those pages for suggestions. You guys need to get your act together, and stop contradicting each other.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Aedelric.1287:

If you are proud of what your team has done like you said, then you have no reason to worry about the `current environment´ Chris.

Hi Aedelric,

I am concerned about the thread being derailed.

Chris

Derailing of the thread should be handled exactly as it would be in other circumstances.
That said, you should probably reccomend someone start engaging in a discussion with the community on the topic of the day.
Essentially, your CDI as far as i understand it is something for long term projects, things in development/aka brainstorming.

You probably need some one, to discuss major current events issues separately. This does not seem like it would be against your communication policy, as the beefs now, are actually current content.

Short version

• keep CDI going with regular moderation of offtopic posts, or ignoring them
• get someone else who is actively engaging the the public, and trying to understand and discuss the current issues on the NPE.
  • Someone should be engaging players and trying to see why so many are not liking the changes, and whether anything can or should be done about it. It shouldnt just be an im listening post, it should be a real discussion whereby someone is trying to come to an understanding or gain knowledge.

Errant Venture.9371:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Cool I agree. After this meeting I will finish my doc and then lets get on with the CDI.

Chris

On which topic though? It seems that a CDI on the topic of guilds would be an exercise in futility at the moment, when one of the most apparent concerns of the forum-going members of the community appears to be the changes to the leveling system (particularly the level-gating of basic functions like skill challenges, POIs, salvaging, harvesting, diving goggles, etc.)

honestly talking about guilds at this point is just as important as talking about the current leveling.
If theoretically the CDI is a development tool, getting a CDI while they are in the brainstorming phase is just as neccessary as dealing with current issues.

Essentially a good CDI could theoretically reduce the chance of a bad implementation on any guild changes they come up with.

They need a seperate entity to deal with and come to an understanding on current content issues.

Sry but with anets current track record i would not be proud of this change. You guys need a better way of communicating player feedback internally and externally.

all i can recomend is reverting this leveling change. look past this team/company pride and listen more to your players the ones that complain the most and take the time to come here and post are probably your more dedicated players and fans.

Yes we need a cdi on guilds but mainly the new leveling changes

Chris Whiteside.6102:

phys.7689:

• Someone should be engaging players and trying to see why so many are not liking the changes, and whether anything can or should be done about it. It shouldnt just be an im listening post, it should be a real discussion whereby someone is trying to come to an understanding or gain knowledge.

Good feedback thanks.

Chris

There’s got to be somebody currently not paying attention that you can volunteer for that, right?

Seriously, though, that’s a good suggestion, because I want this to work also.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Yes absolutely I am proud of this team. I am sorry that you don’t agree.

This group of ladies and gentlemen has put out amazing content at an amazing rate.

And no i am not talking any PR I am a developer.

So to be clear, yes i am proud of this team, i am proud of our work, i am proud of how we support each other, i am proud of how much we care for the game and the community. You can twist that statement as much as you like but that is my stance.

Chris

You all have done a lot in the job, revamping a whole system.

However, you say you care about the game and the community. The impression we have is that us, community, are not really heard and when we point out something we deem hurtful for the game, we get at best ignored or a worst warned because of our “behavior”. Also, many of us have been interested in the game thanks to the manifesto. But seeing the game change to be the exact opposite of what was promised gives us the impression we have been tricked. How could the whole team believe a whole system people played during two years was too hard? There were some complaints, but most of them haven’t been fixed and we are given placebo updates: things that were good are now bad.

For example, I created many alts, my last one being only a few days old to play with a friend, a newcomer. Thanks to a bug, today I unlocked my character’s skillbar, elite included, at level 20. And guess what? I’m haven’t more fun than I’ve had in two years, just because my character was fully customizable early, and not half-way through the leveling process. I am sure most people would have more fun playing a full skillbar at level 20 than at level 40. Also, my friend got how to play real fast (like everyone did in the past 2 years), but to her the new system is far more confusing… Wasn’t it supposed to be the other way round?

Also, the fact you have done a lot of work doesn’t mean you have done a good work. Not to insult you, but I mean just because you put blood, sweat and tears in the whole creation process doesn’t mean it’s worth an award. I am a translator, and because I can translate a lot of thing at an amazing rate doesn’t mean everything I write suits the context in which it’s supposed to appear, haste makes waste.

I am sure you were all thrilled by what you have done, but I assume the community, and myself included, do not see these changes as an evolution. It’s ok to make mistake, we all do, don’t we? But leaving the game as it is right now will do more harm than any good.

If you care about the game (the lore, not the pixels) and the community, you should maybe rethink what went wrong and maybe try to find a compromise? I personally wouldn’t mind having to wait a bit more before LS2 p2 release if it means we will not be hindered in the leveling process anymore.

However, if you are all reading the feedbacks, sometimes harsh or other time clear-cut, it’s already a good comfort for us.

Remember: if we respond harshly to changes we deem wrong, it’s not because we are judging you, it’s simply because we are scared for the game we all care about.

On topic: later for the CDI would be good, even if I’m looking forward to reading from it.

I just realized something. This game has become a mirror of the US government. Both Anet and the government say they are listening. They say they are doing things ‘for the people’. And people are constantly complaining that they are not being listened to, are being forced to do things they hate, and are disillusioned about what is happening. Both are being paid ‘by the people’ they supposedly are serving/doing things for, but they forget it, and feel they know what we want, without ever asking us.

phys.7689:

honestly talking about guilds at this point is just as important as talking about the current leveling.
If theoretically the CDI is a development tool, getting a CDI while they are in the brainstorming phase is just as neccessary as dealing with current issues.

Essentially a good CDI could theoretically reduce the chance of a bad implementation on any guild changes they come up with.

They need a seperate entity to deal with and come to an understanding on current content issues.

Yeah, plus, they’re not going to want to make ANY changes on leveling or the recent patch until they see what people are doing. If it turns out that the forum posters represent a majority opinion, then that’s one thing. If it turns out that people are actually doing more in the game, then that’s another. And they need to know what angle they should be approaching this at.

So we need to come to a detente.

Anet should give us the opportunity to have a clear back and forth with somebody about changes, even someone that just compiles an updated list of suggestions/likes/grievances and makes notes.

In turn, we need to calm down and realize that it’s not going to work to insist they make huge changes now. And also to not make the Anet team want to avoid these forums. That’s like the opposite of what we all want.

Can we make that happen? I think it would do everybody a lot of good.

Chris thanks for listening.
Even if I’m very tempted to burn some one at the moment. And I’m sure many other people beside me were prepearing their torches and pitchforks.
But thanks still!

Keysha.2815:

I just realized something. This game has become a mirror of the US government. Both Anet and the government say they are listening. They say they are doing things ‘for the people’. And people are constantly complaining that they are not being listened to, are being forced to do things they hate, and are disillusioned about what is happening. Both are being paid ‘by the people’ they supposedly are serving/doing things for, but they forget it, and feel they know what we want, without ever asking us.

Do you really need to go there? I mean, really?

The CDI isn’t needed at this time… This Toxic fume you developers have unleashed on the GW Community by not listening to them isn’t gonna be fixed by it. When I started this game almost a yr ago with a group of friends it was really nice to be able to do just what we wanted… The game was a different enough from most mmo’s to keep it enjoyable… Sadly that is not the case anymore… Its another boring, grinding, alt unfriendly toxic void.. and the community has really suffered for it…. anyway Back to Minecraft

phys.7689:

<snip>
That said, you should probably reccomend someone start engaging in a discussion with the community on the topic of the day.
Essentially, your CDI as far as i understand it is something for long term projects, things in development/aka brainstorming.

You probably need some one, to discuss major current events issues separately. This does not seem like it would be against your communication policy, as the beefs now, are actually current content.
<snip>

If there is any possibility of someone directly engaging the forumites about the hot raging topics of the day it needs to be done. Sooner rather than later. Unfortunately history says that ‘gathering feedback’, ‘discussing internally’ and then never mentioning the topic again is likely to happen.

Look back, they had reasons to add ascended gear, they did not convey them well at all, or use their data to stop the raging, they ignored the very large angry thread. The same thing happened with the watchwork pick, the first feature pack changes to traits, megaserver thread, outfit / tonics and now the new player experience.

I would absolutely be ecstatic if there was a direct engagement person from Anet to address current hot topics. I would love it. It just doesn’t seem to be their M.O.

They are not dumb people. They have the data they could explain why it is the way it is. The person doing so just has to be ready to counter the well thought out criticisms and the thick skin (or quick moderators) to ignore all of the ‘this sucks rollback people should be fired’ posts.

Xar.6185:

I would absolutely be ecstatic if there was a direct engagement person from Anet to address current hot topics. I would love it. It just doesn’t seem to be their M.O.

They are not dumb people. They have the data they could explain why it is the way it is. The person doing so just has to be ready to counter the well thought out criticisms and the thick skin (or quick moderators) to ignore all of the ‘this sucks rollback people should be fired’ posts.

Can we put together a list of the qualities we want in a community/developer liason like the song in Mary Poppins?

wwwes.1398:

phys.7689:

honestly talking about guilds at this point is just as important as talking about the current leveling.
If theoretically the CDI is a development tool, getting a CDI while they are in the brainstorming phase is just as neccessary as dealing with current issues.

Essentially a good CDI could theoretically reduce the chance of a bad implementation on any guild changes they come up with.

They need a seperate entity to deal with and come to an understanding on current content issues.

Yeah, plus, they’re not going to want to make ANY changes on leveling or the recent patch until they see what people are doing. If it turns out that the forum posters represent a majority opinion, then that’s one thing. If it turns out that people are actually doing more in the game, then that’s another. And they need to know what angle they should be approaching this at.

So we need to come to a detente.

Anet should give us the opportunity to have a clear back and forth with somebody about changes, even someone that just compiles an updated list of suggestions/likes/grievances and makes notes.

In turn, we need to calm down and realize that it’s not going to work to insist they make huge changes now. And also to not make the Anet team want to avoid these forums. That’s like the opposite of what we all want.

Can we make that happen? I think it would do everybody a lot of good.

I would have no problem calming down and giving them time, if they showed a single iota of caring what we think. I’d be willing to discuss things intelligently, calmly, and in a way that would benefit, if Anet would do their part. Instead we are kept in the dark about the future, get things dumped on us that most hate, get no feedback from Anet when we bring issues up, and see patterns developed that make us certain that Anet does not care about it’s player base.

tl;dr
I’m willing, as many others are, to calm down and talk. But Anet won’t talk to us. They have to take the first step, because they are the ones that are, to many, causing the problems.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Synesh.1094:

Chris thanks for listening.
Even if I’m very tempted to burn some one at the moment. And I’m sure many other people beside me were prepearing their torches and pitchforks.
But thanks still!

Well thanks to everyone too for giving their constructive opinions. We love that, it is ill informed, assumption based criticism, that is time consuming and frustrating and certainly plain rude commentary is simply ignored.

Chris

I would very much like it if this new system for beginner players was made optional for beginner players only, as this is extremely frustrating for veteran players and altaholics. This could be done by either making this system only kick in on accounts who have no lvl 80 character yet or by adding a toggle in the options menu.

Thanks for listening.

Good luck with all the angry unnecessary complains.
No matter what, they always get to you. Many youtuber say the exact same thing. I think most of the anger comes from the big big change of a system that worked as it was. And that no one saw coming. It left me baffled.

I hope the company can do a 180° turn and come back but that’s unlukly (try if you can please) but if not we’ll have to settle down with the best possible optimasation.

good luck with this stressful time.