Guild Wars 2

Neural.1824:

Spiderwick.1879:

As Vol already stated, it’s not about the sprockets. Just the other day, on our guild Teamspeak, we we’re doing a dungeon and someone say, “Darn, I’m out of salvage kits!”. I’ve said how I love my Fed-O-Matic for unlimited salvages, and how it’s a great item. A guildy then said that someone did the math and you had to salvage thousands of items in order to break even on your purchase. But I did not buy it cause of the economic value, but cause of convinience. It was great for me and well worth it.

I think it’s worth pointing out that when the slavage-o-matic came out, silk and cotton were not worth nearly what they are now, nor was essence-of-luck in existence. In my venture towards “more magic find!” I’m pretty sure I’ve burned through a thousand or so blues/greens, and the materials I’ve salvaged from them are worth a decent amount (example: they aren’t the most valueable, but I have over 1000 mithril ingots just sitting around, and I’ve not gone to mine mithril specifically in quite a while. I get most of it from salvaging).
Of all the infini-tools in the game, I think the salvage-o-matic is the one that most easily starts to pay itself off.

I agree with you. I bought it for 25-30 gold, can’t remember now. Given the todays situation, well, what you said.

But again, it’s a matter of principle. I would rather pay monthly 12 euros and get all the stuff in game, than this Gem Store bullkitten. Picks, salvage kits, trans stones, they are all nice, when strictly used for convinience. But, all those armors, and such, that for me in unacceptable,.

I know forum crowd is a minority, in all games. Your average player will buy what they like, and will not worry about P2W or B2P or what ever X2X scenarion. He’ll just play a game and have fun. Maybe it will even be more cool if you’re pick has a another effect for him.

But also, that average player has a hard time doing the Marionette, and grasping what to do. Which is silly cause its kitten easy.

Gee. Lots of ‘what if’ this or that happens in the future. No indication at all that sprockets will cease being available from other than nodes. And considering that Scarlet and her minions are being introduced into EotM, it seems unlikely.

As for exchanging sprockets with item X, I can’t say I saw much on the forums about the Gathering Booster. There was/is an item introduced in the Gem Store that allowed you to gather more of materials, and was/is a lot more costly.

I don’t know…maybe it’s a bad idea, but not for any of the reasons I’ve seen posted, so far.

You ALREADY can exachange gems for gold. Buying item for gems to have a chance to get more gold is idiotic excuse for P2W.

I think they should add a 20% chance for something on all the other unlimited tools too! then I’d be happy, I bought 9 over 3 characters and I feel cheated now!

So many ships on the horizon, I wouldn’t even bother with Anet’s gemstore ventures.

I don’t really consider this a P2W item. What I do consider this is vertical progression.

We had 2 sets of infinite gathering tools that all did the same thing and had alternate animations. Cool. Now we have the 1st component of a new set of infinite harvesting tools that do the same thing as the earlier sets, have alternative animations, AND provide a new bonus.

I don’t really care if that bonus is worth having or not. As someone up higher said, who knows what the next tool’s bonus will be (though harvesting tool and spore doesn’t seem unlikely). All I know is that taking something in game that many people already have, and adding a new item that is identical except with an added bonus is vertical progression. Vertical progression annoys me. When I’m annoyed, I don’t spend money on the thing that annoys me.

Unfortunately, I must once again admit to sadness and annoyance with ANet. * sigh *

Terkov.4138:

You ALREADY can exachange gems for gold. Buying item for gems to have a chance to get more gold is idiotic excuse for P2W.

G2G or RLM2G doesn’t matter, any way you paint THIS PICTURE it’s still turning the game into a P2W scenario.

Peetee.9406:

November 15th 2012 – The day the gear treadmill began.
January 28th 2014 – The day pay-to-win began.

ANet seems desperate, why such a move? This is obviously a door opener for more items to come. What is next? A vip subscribtion?

In this thread… many people that don’t know what “pay to win” means.

OK folks, for those of you that think this is somehow “pay to win”, imagine you’re holding one of these shiny, fresh new picks. You can still smell the factory oil as your body tingles with anticipation of your impending win.

OK, go win. I’m curious to see how you accomplish this… I can imagine people taking these picks into WvW, ripping open the wall of SM with them, one-shotting the keep lord inside and soloing SM! Maybe, maybe they go to fight the wurm, use the pick to dig down between the three heads to the body of the beast itself and with one majestic blow drive the pick into the very heart of our beloved wurm! Ah, perhaps they throw it at Zhaitan while in mid-flight, sending him plummeting to his… eh, what’s that? You got a sprocket? From an ore node. You… think you won?

Oh my.

Peetee.9406:

November 15th 2012 – The day the gear treadmill began.
January 28th 2014 – The day pay-to-win began.

Since we can now potentially get sprockets from ore nodes as of 1/28/2014, wouldn’t that be the day the gear treadmill began? :P

It is just ascended rings, just some minor stat upgrade they said. Now a year later look how much more damage a full ascended character can do.

It starts small, but if you look carfully, you see the signs, or you don’t and play sheep.

If you really think about it no one is really WINNING anything because of this. in a PvE environment it is really just you against the world… and this in no way gives you any advantage in WvW or PvP where paying for an advantage does help you win. Just give the other unlimited tools a 20% chance at something so that they can all be on par. And saying that sprockets may some day be worth something is just like a person that is good on the market can buy something cheap today and profit on it in the future. People just need to relax about the whole thing no one is gaining anything here special. and if you really want to look at it logically there is already a chance with any pick that you get a “critical” hit on the node and you get 1-3 more things out of it. so instead this one is just giving you sprockets. Things will never be so balanced and fair like everyone wants anyway (even if it were people would complain) so lets just play the game and have fun.

Some people either need to look up the definition for what pay to win is since this clearly is not. People are either misinformed or just trolling and using this as another opportunity to attack the game and/or Anet.

I am not sure if I agree this is a direct P2W. It is definitely a dangerous road and a springboard into an area that is worse for the game. I have all the other tools and none of them offer what the current one offers.

I have also been screaming for months about the gem creep on the cost of all items. Masks are now 500 gems and offer less and less in terms of quality. This is heavily opinionated but previous helms outshine face paint, which norn get for free.

Whole sets of armor at release were 500 gems…which shot up to 800. Now face paint costs as much as an original set of armor. I am surprised this new mining pick did not cost us more.

On the lighter side:

I want infinite use legendary gathering tools! Ones that lets me choose what to gather currently by using a drop down menu. With bonus items thrown in. And it may as well include things like obsidian shards, bolts of damask, gifts for legendary weapons/armor and precursors.

Ayrilana.1396:

Some people either need to look up the definition for what pay to win is since this clearly is not. People are either misinformed or just trolling and using this as another opportunity to attack the game and/or Anet.

There is no concrete definition of P2W. It varies from person to person. This has been discussed to death on this forum, and P2W for one person is not P2W to another. Being hostile and accusing people of trolling for stating their opinion just makes you look silly and reinforces other’s points.

If you were going to make it better than the other infinite picks you could at least make it cost more. Thanks Anet for making me feel like a kitten for giving you money.

Zoid.2568:

I’m glad i and a few others could be constructive at least, to prove you wrong.

To my knowledge, this is the only example of a tool you can buy in the gem store that lets you get more stuff per swing than the standard tools. I think that’s a bad idea; you can have a different opinion, but that doesn’t mean you’ve proven me or anyone else “wrong”.

If you were going to make it better than the other infinite picks you could at least make it cost more. Thanks Anet for making me feel like a kitten for giving you money.

Oh they will…THEY WILL.

As the person who posted the “20%” number on Reddit I feel partially culpable for it being used here over and over. As someone with an Engi I grabbed the pick right away purely for thematic purposes. That sample and derived percentage was based on a late night iron ore run where I pulled in about 130 mineral resources (iron and silver) and had about 30 sprockets as well. I’d hardly call this a meaningful data set, or meaningful money (I am whole 3s richer for it). It is notable, however, how quickly one person’s limited experience became a fact though. It is, like many other items, likely driven by RDM and I could have just been on a hot streak. To wave it around as some hard and fast number is a little ridiculous.

Two sayings immediately spring to my mind — “When you see hoof prints, look for horses, not zebras” and “Never attribute to malice that which can easily be explained by carelessness or stupidity.” To assume you understand ANet’s motivations on creating this item gives anyone a level of arrogance (or omniscience) that is, frankly, reckless. (Your use of the dollar sign, BTW, hearkens back to the old Apple/PC Wars of the 90s, so sorry if you thought you were being original.)

This community, like all MMO communities, is galvanized by and coalesces around drama/controversy because of our emotional attachments to our effort expended. We don’t want to see that effort go to waste cause then it would mean our time has been wasted. Even I concede I have done the same recently with regard to the proposed critical changes and celestial gear (before you clever people looking to score internet points going digging through my posting history). But, I find it interesting that people are up in arms about a convenience item that has a cute gimmick related to the LS as being P2W, when the fact is that the game, since it’s inception, has had a Gem => Gold system that allows anyone with a large enough bank account to get a legendary in a day for about $300. Moreover, that process inflating the economy with the introduction of “manufactured” currency.

So far all I have seen is a rash logical fallacies and very little, if any, compelling data or reason to support that this thread is little more than a knee jerk reaction. I’d like to think a red will nip this in the bud, but us screaming at each other and trying to prove who is more clever by arguing over points that are mostly unsubstantiated in any meaningful way is hardly going to see any meaningful resolution.

Aeonblade.8709:

Ayrilana.1396:

Some people either need to look up the definition for what pay to win is since this clearly is not. People are either misinformed or just trolling and using this as another opportunity to attack the game and/or Anet.

There is no concrete definition of P2W. It varies from person to person. This has been discussed to death on this forum, and P2W for one person is not P2W to another. Being hostile and accusing people of trolling for stating their opinion just makes you look silly and reinforces other’s points.

I disagree. There is the “official” description of “pay to win”, which directly involves paying cash for an advantage, usually in PvP, that cannot be obtained without making the cash purchase and there’s the watered-down version people tend to use to stir up emotions due to the stigma associated with the actual definition. I abhor pay to win. If ANet were to introduce actual pay to win items that gave people unobtainable advantages in WvW unless I pay myself, then they’ll flat out lose me and I’m one of the bigger fanboys out there.

This is not pay to win.

At this point I would rather have a subscription based MMO than this stupid gem shop.

VOLKON.1290:

Aeonblade.8709:

Ayrilana.1396:

Some people either need to look up the definition for what pay to win is since this clearly is not. People are either misinformed or just trolling and using this as another opportunity to attack the game and/or Anet.

There is no concrete definition of P2W. It varies from person to person. This has been discussed to death on this forum, and P2W for one person is not P2W to another. Being hostile and accusing people of trolling for stating their opinion just makes you look silly and reinforces other’s points.

I disagree. There is the “official” description of “pay to win”, which directly involves paying cash for an advantage, usually in PvP, that cannot be obtained without making the cash purchase and there’s the watered-down version people tend to use to stir up emotions due to the stigma associated with the actual definition. I abhor pay to win. If ANet were to introduce actual pay to win items that gave people unobtainable advantages in WvW unless I pay myself, then they’ll flat out lose me and I’m one of the bigger fanboys out there.

This is not pay to win.

And that is your opinion, and I can respect that, even if we do not agree.

Malediktus.9250:

At this point I would rather have a subscription based MMO than this stupid gem shop.

You’d rather have to pay a mandatory monthly fee to access a game you already paid for instead of a cash shop full of optional fluff that won’t cut off access to the game you paid for if you choose not to use it?

yurdun.2501:

I think they should add a 20% chance for something on all the other unlimited tools too! then I’d be happy, I bought 9 over 3 characters and I feel cheated now!

I bought 20 tools for 8 chats till now, and i have no problem with it. Had a much bigger problem when they upped the price from 800 to 1000. If i buy one of those now, maybe after a year it would be at least as if had costed also only 800 because of the sprockets.

I see already i can buy 100s of precursors then

Ayrilana.1396:

Some people either need to look up the definition for what pay to win is since this clearly is not. People are either misinformed or just trolling and using this as another opportunity to attack the game and/or Anet.

There is no offical definition of pay to win. For some people its winning to save time. For some its winning to look good. For some its winning to have a statistical advantage. For some its winning if you level faster, especially if its world ranks.

Just adding my voice that I think it is a bad idea to include a drop of an extra item that is not widely available anywhere else. Not a good plan.

VOLKON.1290:

Malediktus.9250:

At this point I would rather have a subscription based MMO than this stupid gem shop.

You’d rather have to pay a mandatory monthly fee to access a game you already paid for instead of a cash shop full of optional fluff that won’t cut off access to the game you paid for if you choose not to use it?

Yes. I want the whole game available without being nickle and dimed for every skin or miniature I like. As it is now I pay more per month in Gem Shop than I would pay for a subscription.

Just wanted to add another voice, I don’t like where this is going.

Aeonblade.8709:

VOLKON.1290:

Aeonblade.8709:

Ayrilana.1396:

Some people either need to look up the definition for what pay to win is since this clearly is not. People are either misinformed or just trolling and using this as another opportunity to attack the game and/or Anet.

There is no concrete definition of P2W. It varies from person to person. This has been discussed to death on this forum, and P2W for one person is not P2W to another. Being hostile and accusing people of trolling for stating their opinion just makes you look silly and reinforces other’s points.

I disagree. There is the “official” description of “pay to win”, which directly involves paying cash for an advantage, usually in PvP, that cannot be obtained without making the cash purchase and there’s the watered-down version people tend to use to stir up emotions due to the stigma associated with the actual definition. I abhor pay to win. If ANet were to introduce actual pay to win items that gave people unobtainable advantages in WvW unless I pay myself, then they’ll flat out lose me and I’m one of the bigger fanboys out there.

This is not pay to win.

And that is your opinion, and I can respect that, even if we do not agree.

This isn’t opinion. This is based solely on fact, from past experience bumping into actual pay to win games. One little space PvP game, I forget the name, you could go so far in without paying but in order to compete you actually had to purchase special ammo and ships that were significantly better than anything you could earn in the game itself. It was, by the very definition of the word, pay to win. You don’t pay, you can’t win, period.

It’s a lot like the use of the word “theory”. There’s the scientific definition, such as used in the ‘Theory of Evolution’, and the layman definition which equates basically to a guess. A scientific theory is practically as good as it gets, yet you’ll sometimes hear people attack evolution as being ‘only a theory’. They’re using the wrong definition in the wrong context to stir an emotional reaction, just like people using ‘pay to win’ here are. It’s no different.

Malediktus.9250:

VOLKON.1290:

Malediktus.9250:

At this point I would rather have a subscription based MMO than this stupid gem shop.

You’d rather have to pay a mandatory monthly fee to access a game you already paid for instead of a cash shop full of optional fluff that won’t cut off access to the game you paid for if you choose not to use it?

Yes. I want the whole game available without being nickle and dimed for every skin or miniature I like. As it is now I pay more per month in Gem Shop than I would pay for a subscription.

So, there are sub-based games out there without cash shops that have minis and skins you can’t get in the game? Hmm… maybe, but the trend is in the other direction.

Don’t buy something in the gem store for a couple months and tell me what happens. Miss a subscription payment in a different game and what happens?

You’re also ignoring the basic fact that you can convert gold to gems and hit the gem store that way. I recently got a couple stack expanders doing exactly that. Which reminds me… I need to get one more for the full thousand. I need to start stashing again for that…

VOLKON.1290:

Aeonblade.8709:

VOLKON.1290:

Aeonblade.8709:

Ayrilana.1396:

Some people either need to look up the definition for what pay to win is since this clearly is not. People are either misinformed or just trolling and using this as another opportunity to attack the game and/or Anet.

There is no concrete definition of P2W. It varies from person to person. This has been discussed to death on this forum, and P2W for one person is not P2W to another. Being hostile and accusing people of trolling for stating their opinion just makes you look silly and reinforces other’s points.

I disagree. There is the “official” description of “pay to win”, which directly involves paying cash for an advantage, usually in PvP, that cannot be obtained without making the cash purchase and there’s the watered-down version people tend to use to stir up emotions due to the stigma associated with the actual definition. I abhor pay to win. If ANet were to introduce actual pay to win items that gave people unobtainable advantages in WvW unless I pay myself, then they’ll flat out lose me and I’m one of the bigger fanboys out there.

This is not pay to win.

And that is your opinion, and I can respect that, even if we do not agree.

This isn’t opinion. This is based solely on fact, from past experience bumping into actual pay to win games. One little space PvP game, I forget the name, you could go so far in without paying but in order to compete you actually had to purchase special ammo and ships that were significantly better than anything you could earn in the game itself. It was, by the very definition of the word, pay to win. You don’t pay, you can’t win, period.

It’s a lot like the use of the word “theory”. There’s the scientific definition, such as used in the ‘Theory of Evolution’, and the layman definition which equates basically to a guess. A scientific theory is practically as good as it gets, yet you’ll sometimes hear people attack evolution as being ‘only a theory’. They’re using the wrong definition in the wrong context to stir an emotional reaction, just like people using ‘pay to win’ here are. It’s no different.

The entire problem with what you are saying is everyone’s definition of “winning” is different. I’m sorry that you can’t understand that winning in my eyes is different from what would be winning to you. Winning is not black and white, but a very gray area that differs from person to person.

Once again, everyone’s definition of P2W will be different, because different people base winning on different objectives for themselves. I can’t explain it in any other way, and I understand P2W has a mostly PvP connotation to you, but others find winning in unique skins, PvE bonuses, Shortcuts to legendaries using real money, etc.

Yargesh.4965:

Just adding my voice that I think it is a bad idea to include a drop of an extra item that is not widely available anywhere else. Not a good plan.

The item is available in every Scarlett invasion and in your home instance if you complete the meta for this Living Story.

Real problem is that it is “unfair” for people having bought previous items at the same price, not knowing a better version would be available weeks later.

Put the new unlimited gathering tool at 1200 gems and problem is gone. Or add this new cool feature to the old ones.

I’m too quite unhappy with this new version, having already bought several unlimited tools for my various characters.

I agree with the OP. This is unacceptable and is blatantly converging on P2W territory.

Aeonblade.8709:

VOLKON.1290:

Aeonblade.8709:

VOLKON.1290:

Aeonblade.8709:

Ayrilana.1396:

Some people either need to look up the definition for what pay to win is since this clearly is not. People are either misinformed or just trolling and using this as another opportunity to attack the game and/or Anet.

There is no concrete definition of P2W. It varies from person to person. This has been discussed to death on this forum, and P2W for one person is not P2W to another. Being hostile and accusing people of trolling for stating their opinion just makes you look silly and reinforces other’s points.

I disagree. There is the “official” description of “pay to win”, which directly involves paying cash for an advantage, usually in PvP, that cannot be obtained without making the cash purchase and there’s the watered-down version people tend to use to stir up emotions due to the stigma associated with the actual definition. I abhor pay to win. If ANet were to introduce actual pay to win items that gave people unobtainable advantages in WvW unless I pay myself, then they’ll flat out lose me and I’m one of the bigger fanboys out there.

This is not pay to win.

And that is your opinion, and I can respect that, even if we do not agree.

This isn’t opinion. This is based solely on fact, from past experience bumping into actual pay to win games. One little space PvP game, I forget the name, you could go so far in without paying but in order to compete you actually had to purchase special ammo and ships that were significantly better than anything you could earn in the game itself. It was, by the very definition of the word, pay to win. You don’t pay, you can’t win, period.

It’s a lot like the use of the word “theory”. There’s the scientific definition, such as used in the ‘Theory of Evolution’, and the layman definition which equates basically to a guess. A scientific theory is practically as good as it gets, yet you’ll sometimes hear people attack evolution as being ‘only a theory’. They’re using the wrong definition in the wrong context to stir an emotional reaction, just like people using ‘pay to win’ here are. It’s no different.

The entire problem with what you are saying is everyone’s definition of “winning” is different. I’m sorry that you can’t understand that winning in my eyes is different from what would be winning to you. Winning is not black and white, but a very gray area that differs from person to person.

Once again, everyone’s definition of P2W will be different, because different people base winning on different objectives for themselves. I can’t explain it in any other way, and I understand P2W has a mostly PvP connotation to you, but others find winning in unique skins, PvE bonuses, Shortcuts to legendaries using real money, etc.

Therein lies the rub. “Everyone’s definition is different” as you say. There’s one actual definition, like I stated. People are applying wrong (out of context) definitions where they don’t apply. Saying (for example) that ‘evolution is only a theory’ doesn’t make it true just because your definition differs from the scientific one.

“My definition is different” is not a valid excuse to use the term out of context.

So I currently have the previous infinite picks:

• Molten Alliance Mining Picks
• Bone Picks

Is the new Watchwork Pick going to have the advantage of being the BiS pick now making my other infinite picks obsolete because they don’t have a chance to yield sprockets?

Or will the other previous picks be retrofitted with the sprocket option like the soulbound to accountbound change.

If the infinite picks that I already possess are going to have less options then this new one… Even I am going to have to question this decision

VOLKON.1290:

The item is available in every Scarlett invasion and in your home instance if you complete the meta for this Living Story.

For now.
And the thread isn’t really about the specific item obtained either, but rather about the fact that it does happen.

What about if they release an item that lets you get something that is very sparingly available, such as Azurite ore?

EVERYBODY PANIC!

VOLKON.1290:

Aeonblade.8709:

VOLKON.1290:

Aeonblade.8709:

VOLKON.1290:

Aeonblade.8709:

Ayrilana.1396:

Some people either need to look up the definition for what pay to win is since this clearly is not. People are either misinformed or just trolling and using this as another opportunity to attack the game and/or Anet.

There is no concrete definition of P2W. It varies from person to person. This has been discussed to death on this forum, and P2W for one person is not P2W to another. Being hostile and accusing people of trolling for stating their opinion just makes you look silly and reinforces other’s points.

I disagree. There is the “official” description of “pay to win”, which directly involves paying cash for an advantage, usually in PvP, that cannot be obtained without making the cash purchase and there’s the watered-down version people tend to use to stir up emotions due to the stigma associated with the actual definition. I abhor pay to win. If ANet were to introduce actual pay to win items that gave people unobtainable advantages in WvW unless I pay myself, then they’ll flat out lose me and I’m one of the bigger fanboys out there.

This is not pay to win.

And that is your opinion, and I can respect that, even if we do not agree.

This isn’t opinion. This is based solely on fact, from past experience bumping into actual pay to win games. One little space PvP game, I forget the name, you could go so far in without paying but in order to compete you actually had to purchase special ammo and ships that were significantly better than anything you could earn in the game itself. It was, by the very definition of the word, pay to win. You don’t pay, you can’t win, period.

It’s a lot like the use of the word “theory”. There’s the scientific definition, such as used in the ‘Theory of Evolution’, and the layman definition which equates basically to a guess. A scientific theory is practically as good as it gets, yet you’ll sometimes hear people attack evolution as being ‘only a theory’. They’re using the wrong definition in the wrong context to stir an emotional reaction, just like people using ‘pay to win’ here are. It’s no different.

The entire problem with what you are saying is everyone’s definition of “winning” is different. I’m sorry that you can’t understand that winning in my eyes is different from what would be winning to you. Winning is not black and white, but a very gray area that differs from person to person.

Once again, everyone’s definition of P2W will be different, because different people base winning on different objectives for themselves. I can’t explain it in any other way, and I understand P2W has a mostly PvP connotation to you, but others find winning in unique skins, PvE bonuses, Shortcuts to legendaries using real money, etc.

Therein lies the rub. “Everyone’s definition is different” as you say. There’s one actual definition, like I stated. People are applying wrong (out of context) definitions where they don’t apply. Saying (for example) that ‘evolution is only a theory’ doesn’t make it true just because your definition differs from the scientific one.

“My definition is different” is not a valid excuse to use the term out of context.

And that once again, is your opinion on the absolute definition. Just because you do not see how someone could view something differently does not mean it cannot be viewed differently. There is no actual definition of P2W because an actual definition of P2W assumes everyone considers winning to be the exact same thing.

lordkrall.7241:

VOLKON.1290:

The item is available in every Scarlett invasion and in your home instance if you complete the meta for this Living Story.

For now.
And the thread isn’t really about the specific item obtained either, but rather about the fact that it does happen.

What about if they release an item that lets you get something that is very sparingly available, such as Azurite ore?

For now, true, there may be additional means available in the future. Regarding something like azurite, that’s a bridge we’ll burn if we ever get to it.

TChalla.7146:

Hmmm.. I’m going to have to side with the “this was a bad move” group on this one. It definitely pushes the boundaries of ‘Pay to Win.’ Those extra sprockets, while perhaps not all that important, will accumulate over time, and those that have the picks will have the ability to mine them for as long as they play the game. It can and will be a source of gold income for those players, and even if it’s a minimal amount of income, it’s still an issue.

And that says nothing for the fact that if these picks are a successful sale for ANet, what would stop them from doing it with something slightly more useful, over and over again, until the game does truly become pay to win?

I’m about to do a 180 on this one. So for those that believe nobody on the forums will admit they were wrong, I say “Haha!!”

I had forgotten the cardinal reason why I never believed that anything in the gem shop was “Pay to Win.” Since I can buy gems with in-game gold, I cannot make myself believe in Pay To Win.

Now I may just have to pick one of these up.

Aeonblade.8709:

And that once again, is your opinion on an absolute definition. Just because you do not see how someone could view something differently does not mean it cannot be viewed differently. There is no actual definition of P2W because an actual definition of P2W assumes everyone considers winning to be the exact same thing.

You misunderstand. I see how people can view things differently. I can also see how those different views can be used out of the valid context, such as in this case here with the P2W argument.

You need to wipe out the original definition of what pay to win actually is in order for your argument to be able to gain any traction here. That’s pretty much the classic definition of a straw man argument.

Such overreacting nonsense…

Seriously, alot of people here have absolutely no clues, what real P2W means…

P2W means, that you get through Money some real significant advantages over other players in the game, compared to players which didn’t spend real money into the Gem Shop.

P2W would be, if you could buy in the shop something, that wold make the game for Player X extremely alot easier.
P2W would be, if you could for example buy in the Shop another tier of Weapons and Equipment, thats stronger than Ascended Equipment – thats real P2W because with such kind of Store Items would receive players for their spend money a real advantage over other players…

Now look at the harvesting pick .. you get a 20% chance to get 1 additional sprocket when you harvest on mining ore, meaning with perfect luck you can get 3 sprockets if at each hit the 20% should trigger for that 1 extra sprocket.

PSrockets currently have absolutely zero meaning for the game, nor are they really needed for something that would grant players a huge advantage over other players.
There are only these intewrestign things that you can do so far with sprockets:

Crafting:
Watchwork Mechanism > needs 500 sprockets!!
Superior Runes of Exuberance > 250 sprockets needed just for a rune.
The Rune isn’t really the best that you can say its P2W, there are better runes in the Game

Superior Sigils of Malice > 250 Sprockets for 6% more condition duration.. wow, just wow, besides theres another Sigil with the same effect if I remember right

Watchwork Portal Devices > 250 Sprockets just to have a consumeable portal, not very P2W when you can do everythign in the game just with your Mesmer instead not havign to waste 250 sprockets for such obsolete junk!!

Jup I remembered right ..Superior Sigil of Bursting, just made by an iother craftign job, but exact same effect … like Malice … for condition builds there are better sigils

Exquisite Watchwork Sprockets: just a new upgrade item for the new Keeper Stat of Power, Precision Healing Power > 150 Sprockets

Superior Rune of Tormenting: just a good Rune set only useful for a Torment Build
> 250 sprockets
Nothign that I would call P2W, because a simple rune set doesn#t make you invincible

Superior Runes of Perplecity.
Again nothign I’d call P2W, again just a rune thats useful only for a very specific build for Mesmers > 250 Sprockets

Superior Sigil of Renewal > Healings on Weapon Swap, not somethign that I’d call P2W.
The healings are weak, they don’t make you invincible.

P2W would these thigns be, of somethign along those Sigils and runes would provide effects like:

- Making you invulnerable to Conditions
- Increasing your max Health like by +5000 points or so …
- Giving you permanent Aegis/Protection/Retaliation/Quickness/Swiftness ect.
- Having much better Trigger Chances for Criticals or siginificant higher Crit Damage then anyone else could get

That are things that I’d call P2W, when you get great advantages over other players in certain things, with items that they can’t get in the game.

Haven’t looked over it
However, most of all the stuff can be all done also by other players.
Not having a source of income from those sprockets is the only thing, that could be seen here as a little advantage, but its absolutely no P2W advantage, because it doesn’t make the player in any kind of way better over other players, which don’t have this source of sprocket income.

if you think, this kind of material source is any kind of unfair andvantage, then Anet should have never given out any kind of Home Instance Nodes at all, then they also should have never sold Copper, Silver and Gold Nodes for the Home Instance too, because this would be by most of peoples bad logic here also P2W then cause you could get that way 3 material sources for your Home Instance with paying for those Nodes (what surely also won’t stay permanently in the Shop), what is imo exactly the same like seellign temporarely a harvestign tool, that gives you a chance for gettign an other material too.

Also who knows, maybe we will see in the future a new fractal based on the Scarlet Arc, where we can fight agaisnt watchwork enemies to get there also sprockets as loot, or we might see hopefully one day gain the overweorked Queens Pavillion, where we could fight against Watchwork Enemies again to get Sprockets there as loot …

Seriosly people should stop to overreact permanently so quickly, as if the world would be doomed, when something new gets into the game that they don’t like.
You can never know how the game will change over time and what Anet has all for later in the backhand to set things up right, what looks maybe just on the first sight only wrong perhaps.

VOLKON.1290:

Yargesh.4965:

Just adding my voice that I think it is a bad idea to include a drop of an extra item that is not widely available anywhere else. Not a good plan.

The item is available in every Scarlett invasion and in your home instance if you complete the meta for this Living Story.

oh yes they are now and I have the node in my home instance. They are not available when the event is over or for those that did not do the meta. That is to me a not widely available item.

VOLKON.1290:

Aeonblade.8709:

And that once again, is your opinion on an absolute definition. Just because you do not see how someone could view something differently does not mean it cannot be viewed differently. There is no actual definition of P2W because an actual definition of P2W assumes everyone considers winning to be the exact same thing.

You misunderstand. I see how people can view things differently. I can also see how those different views can be used out of the valid context, such as in this case here with the P2W argument.

You need to wipe out the original definition of what pay to win actually is in order for your argument to be able to gain any traction here. That’s pretty much the classic definition of a straw man argument.

I’m going to let this one go. The conversation has degenerated to the point of the overused straw man argument when no logical counter point could be reached to my own, which is not applicable here, and we have moved into the realm of off topic for this thread. I agree to disagree, as have several other people in this thread. One day you may realize the world is not all black and white, but shades of gray.

Aeonblade.8709:

VOLKON.1290:

Aeonblade.8709:

And that once again, is your opinion on an absolute definition. Just because you do not see how someone could view something differently does not mean it cannot be viewed differently. There is no actual definition of P2W because an actual definition of P2W assumes everyone considers winning to be the exact same thing.

You misunderstand. I see how people can view things differently. I can also see how those different views can be used out of the valid context, such as in this case here with the P2W argument.

You need to wipe out the original definition of what pay to win actually is in order for your argument to be able to gain any traction here. That’s pretty much the classic definition of a straw man argument.

I’m going to let this one go. The conversation has degenerated to the point of the overused straw man argument when no logical counter point could be reached to my own, which is not applicable here, and we have moved into the realm of off topic for this thread. I agree to disagree, as have several other people in this thread. One day you may realize the world is not all black and white, but shades of gray.

There is no valid counter point when there’s no valid point in the first place. You’re choosing to change the definition of “win”, and by default the definition of “pay to win” in order to give your argument the appearance of being valid. I agree the straw man argument is overused, however I’m not the one using it.

You are entitled to your own set of opinions, I’ll admit that readily. However you are not entitled to your own facts.

Vol.7601:

If you haven’t noticed, a new infinite mining pick has been released which also provides a 20% chance of sprockets.

I have absolutely no problem with infinite tools. They are convenience.

But a chance to get a material that cannot be gathered by other tools? This is P2W.

When scarlet is gone, we more than likely will not be able to get sprockets anymore outside of two sources – the node in your instance and these picks.

It doesn’t matter that sprockets may not have as high value, and that 20% is still low. It sets a dangerous precedent, however, of introducing unique, non-vanity features to future items to generate sales.

Seriously Anet, take this from your no.1 fanboy – this is not cool.

The ‘best’ compromise is to provide older unlimited tools with a similar bonus ore. But personally I would prefer if there were no bonuses at all. Just leave the animation there and sell it for 1000 gems.

edit1: as another mentioned, the other best compromise is to include other temporary picks with the 20% chance, i.e. orichalcum pick with 20% chance at watchwork

All Cash Shop based games end up doing Pay2Win at one time or another. At least GW2 minimizes it.

As far as I’m concerned, earning (0.2 * 3 * SPROCKET VALUE) more on any node in-game is hell of a P2W. The entire purpose of the game is looking awesome, and looking awesome costs money. A pick that gives you more money per swing is definitely in the realm of P2W for a game like this.

VOLKON.1290:

Aeonblade.8709:

VOLKON.1290:

Aeonblade.8709:

And that once again, is your opinion on an absolute definition. Just because you do not see how someone could view something differently does not mean it cannot be viewed differently. There is no actual definition of P2W because an actual definition of P2W assumes everyone considers winning to be the exact same thing.

You misunderstand. I see how people can view things differently. I can also see how those different views can be used out of the valid context, such as in this case here with the P2W argument.

You need to wipe out the original definition of what pay to win actually is in order for your argument to be able to gain any traction here. That’s pretty much the classic definition of a straw man argument.

I’m going to let this one go. The conversation has degenerated to the point of the overused straw man argument when no logical counter point could be reached to my own, which is not applicable here, and we have moved into the realm of off topic for this thread. I agree to disagree, as have several other people in this thread. One day you may realize the world is not all black and white, but shades of gray.

There is no valid counter point when there’s no valid point in the first place. You’re choosing to change the definition of “win”, and by default the definition of “pay to win” in order to give your argument the appearance of being valid. I agree the straw man argument is overused, however I’m not the one using it.

You are entitled to your own set of opinions, I’ll admit that readily. However you are not entitled to your own facts.

No one changed any facts because no facts were established at any point, just your opinion on what you think is a fact, which to counter that you could say I did the same thing. So that means they were both opinions to begin with as no facts were established. Ok, I’m done really this time before we derail this thread any further haha.