Dangerous precedent: Watchwork Pick
So you don’t mind if they will take that 20% away and make like old gathering tools?
Given the issues here? Not enough to make a fuss about it.
I’d like it more if it was replaced with a “useless” item that’s worth just a few copper, as I said above. But if the fix for this problem is to just remove the extra gain entirely, then I’m also okay with that.
delicate, brick-like subtlety.
Chiming in here, I also consider this a dangerous precedent, I know it’s not directly pay to win but it starts a trend , and we don’t want to follow that trend.
I have infinite tools and would like the additional drop chance taken away, all the tools should be equal only differing in cosmetic visuals..
11x level 80’s 80+ Titles 2600+ skins , still a long way to go.
I agree with Palador, either change the buff, or remove it
and if neither, than remove the pick entirely.
This is extremely concerning.
For a start, what are the abilities of the other BL harvesting tools? If you are going to release a new tool every other month that is slightly better than the previous, then I must ask, where does this stop?
The whole idea of this harvesting tool goes against what Arena Net previously said, BL will only sell convenience items and aesthetics. No other harvesting tool that can be obtained in the game through normal means can do this and the sprocket node will no longer be obtainable after the Origin of Madness. This does give a substantial advantage over other players by providing a supply of an uncommon resource not normally obtainable through playing.
Two ways to fix this, give all BL harvesting items similar abilities and secondly provide a new line of vendor harvesting tools with limited durability in game that have a similar function.
I am not liking the direction taken by Arena Net here, they made a promise to us and should not be pushing to test our limits.
I don’t really understand all of this … unless you assume the ONLY way to get said things is the pick, then doesn’t the argument just turn into “X player payed Y dollars to do the same thing I am not willing to do”.
That is already happening with $$ → Gems → Gold.
Personally, I would LOVE to see an item that allows instant level to 80 for a goodly amount of gems. As the MMO audience gets older, they don’t have the time they had in highschool and college to play the game, so I would rather pay Anet to get my character to a stage where it might be fun to play, in say WvW or high level PvE without putting in many hours that I don’t have.
People that don’t want to spend money because they don’t have it, they are free to spend hours accomplishing the same thing.
Bad.move.Anet.GG
Bring back: ‘Gamer’ title + MAT’s!
Throw out: Hotjoin!
The issue is , the best in slot item is in the cash store, that should never happen.
An infinite gathering tool did not give an advantage (statistically) over an ocharium tool, this one does with its bonus item.
The fact you can convert gold to gems does not give free reign to stick anything into the cash-shop, a player should be able to have best in slot for everything without encountering the cash-shop at all.
A second raised point is that it renders the old infinite tools obsolete, why would I buy anything else from the cash shop if it won’t retain its relative usefulness overtime?
11x level 80’s 80+ Titles 2600+ skins , still a long way to go.
Yea, it’s pretty lame and also is even more lame towards people that shelled out all those gems for a now inferior product. I’m never considering buying any of these if they keep this up since I have no intention of ending up with a kitten product that gets random stuff added every month. This isn’t even about p2w; it’s just not a good precedent for gemstore stores.
for there you have been and there you will long to return.
The fact you can convert gold to gems does not give free reign to stick anything into the cash-shop, a player should be able to have best in slot for everything without encountering the cash-shop at all.
Why is that the case? Why can’t “best in slot” be something you have to pay for? It’s not as if you can’t play the game without it. You might not arguably be “the best” I guess, but this could very well be considered a convenience item if there are other outlets for what it gives you that just take a lot more time.
A second raised point is that it renders the old infinite tools obsolete, why would I buy anything else from the cash shop if it won’t retain its relative usefulness overtime?
This I agree with. It’s also very hard to get around that as things evolve. New products make old products obsolete all the time unfortunately.
Unfortunately this will NOT get revised the mass outcry of people demanding refunds because they bought it expecting the sprockets would be insane.
Hopefully Anet chalks this up to a fluke and doesn’t do it again.
So what, let people get refunds, its not like Anet hasn’t changed an item and suddenly had to give refunds before. When they changed the unlimited use gathering tools from soulbound to accountbound they had to do a lot of refunds.
I just want to raise my voice here. As a customer who has been supporting this game with real cash since launch, I find the recent gem-store items to be disappointing. The list includes flamekissed reskin, over-priced tattoos, nodes… and now this “advanced” mining pick. And there are already enough posts providing reasons why we hate them, so I won’t bother to explain why.
This is quite concerning. Arena Net needs to reconsider this and remove the chance for sprockets from the pickaxe completely. It is a best-in-slot item that can only be acquired with gems. End of story.
The fact that it produces sprockets is not the issue. It’s the fact that it produces anything extra at all, which makes it superior to anything you can obtain with in-game currency. You see this kind of thing starting in TCGs all the time, and it’s called Power Creep. Now that Arena Net has created a pickaxe with an extra effect, they have to either maintain that level of usability or up the ante as they go.
This game has a paid entrance fee. It is not free to play. Approaching a Maple Story cash shop would become reason enough to jump ship and play any of the other MMOs on the market. I would recommend the game to a friend, but due to the iffy path that would likely follow from this item, right now I would actually advise against buying the game until Arena Net gets back on track (and if they don’t, I would recommend never buying GW2).
(edited by Tulki.1458)
Why is that the case? Why can’t “best in slot” be something you have to pay for? It’s not as if you can’t play the game without it. You might not arguably be “the best” I guess, but this could very well be considered a convenience item if there are other outlets for what it gives you that just take a lot more time.
I consider the cash-shop a crutch, used to give players unable to keep up a little boost,
Ultimately skill must trump real world money, otherwise why play if I can just buy everything?
A good example of a cash shop ( Warframe, Gw1 initially) requires no interaction from the player to be the best. (The main sales for both of these are bank space and the occasional cosmetic item) i.e a top player will still have cooler/better stuff than a person who shelled out 1000$.
A bad cash shop (Neverwinter) requires debilitating amounts of currency loss but still allows access to the items (you can buy with in-game currency,some upgrades/items give statistical advantages and are thus required) i.e a top player has to siphon off a significant amount of their money to maintain their position but can still technically beat a person who shells out 1000$.
The worst cash shop (Mabinogi) is real world only and the game is effectively unplayable without. (combat pets being cash shop only, best in slot items cash shop only (RNG boxes) , additional subscription services giving benefits, 21x leveling speed (important since the game uses endless leveling)) i.e a top player will loose instantly to someone who shells out 1000$.
11x level 80’s 80+ Titles 2600+ skins , still a long way to go.
I’m going on record as saying adding this pick to the Gem store is crossing the P2W line. It is not good, goes too far, and should be removed.
It doesn’t matter what or how small the advantage is. It crosses the line. This new pick is not just convenience or cosmetic. It gives bonus materials for a gem purchase. Show me the in game item that a player can get by not making a purchase in the gem store and I’ll concede that it is not P2W.
It DOES NOT matter how small the creep over the line is. It is still setting a bad precedent and should not be tolerated by the player base.
ANet, remove or change this item now.
The issue is , the best in slot item is in the cash store, that should never happen.
An infinite gathering tool did not give an advantage (statistically) over an ocharium tool, this one does with its bonus item.The fact you can convert gold to gems does not give free reign to stick anything into the cash-shop, a player should be able to have best in slot for everything without encountering the cash-shop at all.
A second raised point is that it renders the old infinite tools obsolete, why would I buy anything else from the cash shop if it won’t retain its relative usefulness overtime?
Well said. This is what I believe as well.
A good example of a cash shop Warframe
I don’t know what you’re smoking but I sure want some.
You guys are ridiculous. Is buying gold through gems p2w? No. So this isn’t either and not to mention its so miniscual.
This comes hot on the heels of the consumables nerf which was excused as correcting “blatantly bugged” content.
One can only assume that this item is also “blatantly bugged” content and can expect anet to fix it within the next 18 months or so.
Of course, by then the majority of players will have one;
“anet” are laughing all the way to the bank.
I only read through the first 3 or so pages so I don’t know if this was brought up, but this is the first time(the mining nodes in the home instance can also be considered this also) that we are able to buy something from the gemstore that actually CREATES something of value in the game. It is a really bad precedent to start selling items that create “wealth” or effectively P2W. Gems > Gold doesn’t count for this because that is measured with supply and demand with the player base. And the value of sprockets on the TP also doesn’t matter because no matter how many sprockets are on the TP you are just moving around sprockets already in the game(or destroying them by crafting).
Edit: Tried to make it a little more coherent.
Unstable Shield, Unstable Light
(edited by sirflamesword.3896)
Anet I was about to buy this item from the gem store because this update has been one of my all time favorites and I wanted to support you to say my thanks. But I cannot support such a blatant P2W item being in the gem store right now I’ll have to boycott it until you remove it.
Remove it and I’ll buy your pick.
I consider the cash-shop a crutch, used to give players unable to keep up a little boost,
Ultimately skill must trump real world money, otherwise why play if I can just buy everything?
Why shouldn’t a player that can’t play hours and hours a week be able to keep up if they pay extra money? Why should someone with a lot of disposable cash play this game if it requires time and not money? Does Anet pay their programmers with players time or money?
Can’t someone who has hours to burn in game just grind gold, convert gems, and accomplish the same thing?
I don’t see the difference really.
(edited by Contrition.8945)
A good example of a cash shop Warframe
I don’t know what you’re smoking but I sure want some.
I don’t mean in the aspect of that it allows you to buy nearly everything, in that respect it’s pretty bad.
What I meant was I can either pay ~6e to buy a warframe (skin) , or I can spend an hour farming the parts then wait 3 days without spending any real world money, I am not required to interact with the cash shop to obtain the skin and the wait is’nt wasting my playtime. Literally the only thing I ever buy from the store is bank space other than that I can get everything in-game far more efficiently since it’s nothing I need to use instantly.
In the a Guildwars 2 equivilent, to get 800 gems for a single armor skin without money I would be required to farm approx 60g, which would take me at least three days of active play which does waste my playtime.
11x level 80’s 80+ Titles 2600+ skins , still a long way to go.
In the a Guildwars 2 equivilent, to get 800 gems for a single armor skin without money I would be required to farm approx 60g, which would take me at least three days of active play which does waste my playtime.
But if you don’t want to waste your playtime (that is do something else other than get gold to get an item) .. why not buy it from the gem store? That seems like a good tradeoff to me …
The only player that wouldn’t want to do that is someone who doesn’t have time or money .. which begs the question of why they are wasting time playing a game!
I consider the cash-shop a crutch, used to give players unable to keep up a little boost,
Ultimately skill must trump real world money, otherwise why play if I can just buy everything?Why shouldn’t a player that can’t play hours and hours a week be able to keep up if they pay extra money? Why should someone with a lot of disposable cash play this game if it requires time and not money? Does Anet pay their programmers with players time or money?
Can’t someone who has hours to burn in game just grind gold, convert gems, and accomplish the same thing?
I don’t see the difference really.
There comes a point when you are no longer playing the game then.
do remember at it’s basic level a game is there to be played through and experienced, as a secondary it is a competitive environment where players show off their skill and in game wealth/accomplishments.
I know this is a really small step but it’s where it leads that’s causing people the concern.
Imagine Cluedo where a player can buy extra clues, or monopoly where someone can buy a house they haven’t landed on or gotten a card for.
At some point it just becomes cheating.
I am not opposing them being able to keep up for the most part, But they should still have to actually PLAY the game to have the best stuff,
I would pay a subscription if I had to for this game, my issue is when the cash shop impacts the hierarchy of the game.
A good player with lots of time but no money should be at the top.
A good player with low time and lots of money should be at the top too.
An average player with average time and money should have some things but not everything they want.
A bad player with lots of time but no money should still not have everything they want.
A bad player with no time and lots of money should most certainly not have everything they want.
11x level 80’s 80+ Titles 2600+ skins , still a long way to go.
You can trade gold for gems thus you don’t have to pay anything thus it isn’t pay to win. The conversion ratenisnt even bad compared to games like Never winter where it would take years to be able to make enough gold to transfer for enough astral diamonds to buy something simple. Its not pay to win when you can trade for gems. It really isn’t.
There comes a point when you are no longer playing the game then.
do remember at it’s basic level a game is there to be played through and experienced, as a secondary it is a competitive environment where players show off their skill and in game wealth/accomplishments.I know this is a really small step but it’s where it leads that’s causing people the concern.
Imagine Cluedo where a player can buy extra clues, or monopoly where someone can buy a house they haven’t landed on or gotten a card for.
At some point it just becomes cheating.
I see where you are coming from, I really do. I guess my opinion on this kind of thing has changed over time. Back when I had a lot of time in my life, I would rabidly argue that money should never buy any kind of advantage in a game, even if the advantage was that someone didnt have to spend time to achieve something.
Now that I have little time, I don’t see the big deal honestly because I can see the difference.
Let’s take an even crazier example. Let’s say Anet offered a ticket in the gem store that instantly leveled your character up to 80 and gave you 100 gold (knowing full well that people that bought it would be bypassing a lot of game content of course .. but maybe they already experienced it with one character, or want to play with someone else’s 80 character in WvWvW).
This person would still never be able to achieve the kind of skill that a (for example) college student is able to achieve. There is simply not enough time in the day compared to when I was in high school or college to practice at a game enough to be better than anyone who has the time to play it a lot!
All items are ultimately achievable without real money, right? It’s just you are spending time instead.
Now, if this pick became the sole source of sprockets in the future, and sprockets would still be useful, that would probably be a problem .. but we don’t know that will happen just yet.
I just don’t see the big deal because you can convert gold that cost nothing in terms of real dollars to gems at any time.
Whether it’s “P2W” or not is a semantic red herring.
It’s a very, very bad idea.
Store-only advantages are not just dangerous, but game-breaking.
ArenaNet, please abandon this madness, lest ye be abandoned in kind — and richly deserve it.
This right here.
This is all that matters. The precedent this sets is a bad one, plain and simple. To defend it is to defend the very things that have destroyed other games with cash shops.
You don’t wait for the hole in the dam to be a big enough problem that it’ll burst and flood the nearby village. You plug the hole and reinforce the dam before it gets to that point, so that the problem can never exist.
You can trade gold for gems thus you don’t have to pay anything thus it isn’t pay to win. The conversion ratenisnt even bad compared to games like Never winter where it would take years to be able to make enough gold to transfer for enough astral diamonds to buy something simple. Its not pay to win when you can trade for gems. It really isn’t.
I guess Anet can just start putting armorsets into the gemstore that have higher stats than the armor in game has, since we can do gold>gems it won’t be P2W right?
Unstable Shield, Unstable Light
You can trade gold for gems thus you don’t have to pay anything thus it isn’t pay to win….
Its not pay to win when you can trade for gems. It really isn’t.
Can you obtain it without the gem store? No.
Does it provide an advantage over items obtainable from regular play? Yes.
It crosses a line that Arena Net themselves set, telling people just trade gold is not an acceptable defense in any way.
One solution they could provide is to start selling temporary picks with the same ability in-game. That would make this whole situation better and would mean these picks won’t offer anything not available in the game.
This sounds like a good solution. I hope they read it.
This sounds like a good solution. I hope they read it.
You mean minus the extra window and clicks it takes to convert gold to gems? I guess they could just have a vendor that used the current exchange rate for gems, converted it to gold for you, and then let you buy it in game at a vendor.
Problem solved?
Let’s take an even crazier example. Let’s say Anet offered a ticket in the gem store that instantly leveled your character up to 80 and gave you 100 gold (knowing full well that people that bought it would be bypassing a lot of game content of course .. but maybe they already experienced it with one character, or want to play with someone else’s 80 character in WvWvW).
I dislike that, but I am ok with that if they have to, the principal I’m arguing against is different. I can get to 80 and get 100 gold without the cash shop.
Your example does not provide a permanent advantage, the Pick does.
I cannot get a pick that gives an additional 20% proc without interacting with the cash-shop.
For my crazy example:
Lets say you could buy 5 additional trait points,
Or you can buy armour that gives an additional 10% damage reduction over any game-play obtainable set.
Majic sums it up much better than I do.
Majic.4801:
Whether it’s “P2W” or not is a semantic red herring.
It’s a very, very bad idea.
Store-only advantages are not just dangerous, but game-breaking.
ArenaNet, please abandon this madness, lest ye be abandoned in kind — and richly deserve it.
11x level 80’s 80+ Titles 2600+ skins , still a long way to go.
One solution they could provide is to start selling temporary picks with the same ability in-game. That would make this whole situation better and would mean these picks won’t offer anything not available in the game.
This sounds like a good solution. I hope they read it.
It could potentially fix one issue but not others.
I bought the molten pick, now this pick comes along and makes my old purchase essentially inferior. What is to say that if I bought the new pick they would not do it again and in a few months release another that has even better abilities.
This pick has cause many issues, for those that use the store and those that do not. Arena Net is pushing the store too far and needs to rethink this item and what it includes in the future.
Solution: Make it drop in the upcoming Living Story at a rare rate, but you can buy it for 800 Gems if you want to bypass the RNG.
For my crazy example:
Lets say you could buy 5 additional trait points,
Or you can buy armour that gives an additional 10% damage reduction over any game-play obtainable set.
But it is all attainable via game-play (in game gold). Let’s say they simultaneously released the pick in the gem store, and on a new vendor for gold, and the price of the item on the vendor was set at the gold price for the same amount of gems.
Would that not be fair?
Well, if this item isn’t withdrawn I feel I will be unable to further support the gemstore with any future purchases. I’ll likely also have to seriously consider looking for a different game to play. I imagine I won’t be the only one.
I bought one! I think it’s shiny! Shiny shiny!
I knew it had been too long since the last questionable marketing decision.
For my crazy example:
Lets say you could buy 5 additional trait points,
Or you can buy armour that gives an additional 10% damage reduction over any game-play obtainable set.But it is all attainable via game-play (in game gold). Let’s say they simultaneously released the pick in the gem store, and on a new vendor for gold, and the price of the item on the vendor was set at the gold price for the same amount of gems.
Would that not be fair?
Would you also find it acceptable if Arena Net sold a unique Legendary with a bonus 10% damage that no other weapon in the game has?
This is the same situation and telling us you can still use gold hold no weight in this argument.
Would you also find it acceptable if Arena Net sold a unique Legendary with a bonus 10% damage that no other weapon in the game has?
This is the same situation and telling us you can still use gold hold no weight in this argument.
I would be completely fine with that. As far as I am concerned, any legendary for what many would consider a “casual” player is out of reach anyway, unless we are talking massive time spans. If they have the cash, why not?
There’s nothing stopping a player who doesnt want to spend money from getting it. They could save up for it just as if they spent massive amounts of time on working towards it. Just like I could go on the trading post right now and buy a legendary for $$ (via a gem conversion).
That being said .. I wouldn’t make that my first choice if I were Anet. Better would be 3 avenues, a awful RNG grind for someone who dislikes spending anything BUT time, in game gold for someone who has a distaste for gems, and gems for people who don’t have time but have money.
Notice the last two are really the same thing.
(edited by Contrition.8945)
I agree 100% with the OP………….and so we begin…..pay to win…….
Lord Pharaoh – sylvari ranger
etc, etc – one 80 of each class
+1 to OP, well said.
For those who say it is not a broken item, and there is nothing wrong with it, I suggest reading the title of this thread again (Dangerous precedent). It is NOT a tremendous, game breaking thing but it can lead to something from what we want to stay away.
old pick<new pick (something like this should never exist, they cost the same, both of them are for convenience, one should not be better than the other)
Enough said hope they will do something about it.
Here is my two bits about this whole situation here. Its not Pay to Win, but rather, its the questionable decision made by the marketing team or whoever responsible for this nonsense. The direction of this mentality isn’t great and it is basically a slap in the face for all the players that got the non-sprocket version of the pickax, especially those that bought it for all their alt prier of the release of this new pickax. I don’t like it as much as you guys but I doubt the developer responsible for the this marketing gag would listen to our plea, just like all the Living Story crap that stagnate the story and content of the game.
Important question here: does the Watchwork Pick still let you get gemstones from ore veins, or do the sprockets replace the gems?
Important question here: does the Watchwork Pick still let you get gemstones from ore veins, or do the sprockets replace the gems?
I’ve gotten gemstones and sprockets from the same copper vein.
delicate, brick-like subtlety.
Important question here: does the Watchwork Pick still let you get gemstones from ore veins, or do the sprockets replace the gems?
I’ve gotten gemstones and sprockets from the same copper vein.
Welp there went the thing I thought might balance it – Sprockets instead of “Turquoise Pebbles” and the like.
Honestly that’s how I would have designed it. 20% chance to get Sprockets, 0% chance to get Gemstones, increasing amounts of Sprockets as you climb the ore chunk tiers. So you can get 10 Sprockets from an Ori node, but no chance for orbs.
. . . and, of course, I would have had it be a drop from the Marionette chest and available for Gems from the store.
I will be buying this tool to add to my current collection and to gear another of my alts and I agree with the OP. Please remove the sprocket thingy….it’s really not needed.
Am I the only one that didn’t forget Gathering Boosters? A stated 33% chance for more gathers. People raged hard about this, then people saw that the “33%” was next to nothing and it became “such a scam”.
Here we have a stated 20%, 13% lower than them boosters. Is this 20% actually much better than the 33% on boosters? You tell me, the advantage of unlimited gathering tools is lost on me.
I don’t see the issue here.
You can scream “no other source!” all you want, but you’re lying. My home instance node with copper pick (most return per strike) says so. Both are available for a limited time only. Not many complaints about the home nodes from the LSs (more like a tone of praise). Then add in that as a gem store pick, it has a fairly high chance of making another limited availability run – thus allowing those that missed this whole LS a chance to have access to Sprockets. I’d actually welcome more gathering tools with a small chance at a limited resource from previous LSs.
The first infinite tools cost 800, and got a free conversion to acct bound.
And yes, the best solution would be to offer an upgrade fee of 200 gems. This counts for any items that they release, then offer an upgraded one, IE salvage bot from basic to fine.
Best proposed solution IMO.
Even more gems for Anet and equality is restored.