Guild Wars 2

Zaklex.6308:

I’m not even going to quote anyone, because it’s simple: there is no scaling up of the champion fights because there are no adds. So whether it’s 1 or 15 people fighting those Mordrem Champions during the Breach, it does not matter…so whether those people WP out or not isn’t going to make a difference. That’s all you need to know, and once they’re dead, not downed, I don’t believe they count towards the active players, and this would only apply to the Legendary Mordrem, which have nothing to do with the Champions. So in essence, you don’t need auto-waypointing.

Agreed. Auto-waypointing is a bad idea. Often times players are nice and will take the time to revive others. The problem is when it takes you too long to trek clear across the map the event may fail because too many players are still making their way back to the event and not enough players were left alive to handle the event on their own.

And it’s not just the silverwastes. If you’re out doing an event somewhere else in Tyria the nearest waypoint may be contested, or a player may not have gone up to it to activate it yet, causing people to have to travel even farther.

DeWolfe.2174:

Instead of anyone complaining, ask yourselves what are you doing to help prevent players from dieing? Maybe the design requires there to be a couple of combat medic’s in the hole? Maybe someone should bring in a Hammer Guardian setup to tank and heal? Players are so Zerker happy and think active defense can and should save them of everything. If the Dev’s design it right, these bosses should wipe everyone without at least some sustain in the group compliment.

Here’s an example, remember the Tower of Nightmares? Players were having a hard time and I chose to be proactive by pinning up and running groups thru that tower for hours on end that first week. Every pass was pretty easy because I set my Warrior up for combat medic duties with a HamBow / Banner Regen. That and dropping trays of food in the staging area helped insured smooth runs.

Asking the Dev’s to remove players from “your” area isn’t helpful. BE helpful by helping other players succeed. Then you’ll succeed in that content too.

What this person said, well said too.

I hate playing with people who just ignore everyone else, especialy when people go into the downed state. That’s why I’m one of those people that when I go down I type in /say chat “res res, res the downed!”.

Also, even when I’m dead, I don’t particularly want an automatic wp back because the fight could be over and I don’t want to run across the map. Being dead allows you to help coach the players that are alive too, to ensure that they don’t die either and help them out.

Charrbeque.8729:

~Snip~
NOBODY thought it was a bad idea to have certain mordrem enemies immobilize you. I think they’re called Modrem Husk Slingers or something. There have been times I try to ignore enemies to run back across the map, aggro 2 or more of those kittens, and be permanently immobilized. As soon as the immob wears off, or I clear it with a skill, another mordrem immobs me, then when that wears off another immobs me. I end up having no choice but to waste time trying to kill them so I can continue on my way, and sometimes I end up getting killed myself and have to start my long trek across the map all over again!

This is probably why some players refuse to use a waypoint to revive themselves when they get killed at 1 of the forts on the far west side of the map.

It isn’t easy avoiding getting hit by enemies while running past them. Most of the time I’ll get hit at least once on my way back, putting me in combat mode for a good 2 minutes or so because the enemy refuses to break aggro, even though they aren’t chasing me anymore. There have been times throughout the game where I get stuck in combat mode for a good 3-5 minutes when I get hit while running past stuff. At times I’ll stop after a while and look around. Not a single enemy in sight or even in the distance, and I have the distance in the game options set to max so I can see as far as possible, and I’ll still be stuck in combat mode for some reason. This kittenes me off and is really starting to get on my nerves. I’m sick of being stuck in combat mode for minutes, slowing me down, when I’m just trying to get somewhere.

~Snip~

Really, you have that problem with the Husks(not the Slingers or Smashers, all the Slingers do is stand there and throw rocks, you can literally kill them without taking any damage)…do you run blindly across the map without looking to see what enemies are around you? I’ve never been permanently immobolized by even having 2 Husks on top of me, since once both of them pop the roots, they have to wait until the skill recharges like we do, and you can dodge out of the way before they have a chance to pop you again…or just kill them. Heck, I can even escape 3 – 4 Terragriffs that have spawned right on top of me, and that’s a mean feat because those things move kitten fast, and I only get two dodges, granted, I can’t always get away from them, but it can be done. You can’t just go blindly running around maps without watching were you’re going, which from your above statement almost makes it sound like that’s what you’re doing…though perhaps it has to do with what profession you play…that I don’t know, but I can tell you I’m not a pro or even expert, I consider myself quite average, since I’m one of those people that die quite enough as it is…I really don’t care…this is for escapism and it’s just fun killing kitten I can’t get away with doing in real life…at least not without going to prison.

Zaklex.6308:

I’m not even going to quote anyone, because it’s simple: there is no scaling up of the champion fights because there are no adds. So whether it’s 1 or 15 people fighting those Mordrem Champions during the Breach, it does not matter…so whether those people WP out or not isn’t going to make a difference. That’s all you need to know, and once they’re dead, not downed, I don’t believe they count towards the active players, and this would only apply to the Legendary Mordrem, which have nothing to do with the Champions. So in essence, you don’t need auto-waypointing.

This is simply flat out wrong. Single foes do scale to both alive as well as defeated players. The defeated players stay a part of scaling for a set period of time…..which we do not know how long that is.

Crovax.7854:

Xander.9024:

I’d actually like to see that too. It’s a bit of a drag to have so many dead players just laying there doing nothing except trying to coach the living players. Or the ones who do nothing but repeat “res res”.

My main gripe is that bosses scale according to the amount of bodies, not alive players.

And you know what, I much prefer the idea of fixing that.

Downed players should still upscale an encounter – dead bodies should not.

As a player, I would NOT be happy if my body was auto-waypointed to wherever – I would very much like to retain control over when and where (!) I waypoint.

Gaile Gray.6029:

This is an interesting idea. I’d love other feedback on this before taking questions to the dev team. (I’m sure they’ve thought of this, but there may be info to share on the subject.)

What do you guys think about auto-waypointing people (assuming after a certain period, of course) in the midst of specific types of combat encounters? And because I don’t think it’d work for every situation, can you specify which combat instances you believe would benefit from this functionality? Somehow I think dying to a rampaging bandit in Ashford wouldn’t count.

Crovax — I hope you don’t mind, but I changed “bad” to “downed” in the subject. It just seems better (and more relevant) that way. S’ok?

Give them the same timer we have in WvW. Seems like a good solution to me. (Make the time only 2 mins max, though. 5 min would be way too long!)

Gaile Gray.6029:

This is an interesting idea. I’d love other feedback on this before taking questions to the dev team. (I’m sure they’ve thought of this, but there may be info to share on the subject.)

What do you guys think about auto-waypointing people (assuming after a certain period, of course) in the midst of specific types of combat encounters? And because I don’t think it’d work for every situation, can you specify which combat instances you believe would benefit from this functionality? Somehow I think dying to a rampaging bandit in Ashford wouldn’t count.

Crovax — I hope you don’t mind, but I changed “bad” to “downed” in the subject. It just seems better (and more relevant) that way. S’ok?

I know we’ve had threads on this in the past. Many, not all, players are lazy and mindless about what they’re doing in group gameplay. I don’t necessarily blame them anymore (though I still sometimes wish I could drag their bodies and shove them off a cliff instead of reviving them). Why? Because ArenaNet designed gameplay like this. Run in and tag = you get credit. Period. Nothing more need be done by them.

Its depressing.

As for auto-waypointing – I’m in support of such an idea. But it would still not solve the issue of people not TRYING to contribute fully to an event. What is to stop someone from glomping a mob then dying deliberately so they can sit back safely at a nearby waypoint free of charge? Only to minutes later get full reward for ‘Event Completion’? There isn’t even a repair fee anymore.

Equally depressing thought.

Problem is that most people respond to this line of suggestion with open hostility. Usually along the lines of, “Stop trying to penalize me and let me play how I want!”

@ Gaile:
If you and the team can come up with a good solution for this problem, I would be forever grateful. Truly. It is one of the issues that I have always had with the game.

As for auto-waypointing – I’m in support of such an idea. But it would still not solve the issue of people not TRYING to contribute fully to an event. What is to stop someone from glomping a mob then dying deliberately so they can sit back safely at a nearby waypoint free of charge? Only to minutes later get full reward for ‘Event Completion’? There isn’t even a repair fee anymore.

How about this instead: If the goal is to have “auto-waypointing” around big boss fight areas, then why not designate a separate “rally point” on the map, at some location far enough away that it does not scale up the event or confuse people, for example at Fort Amber the rally point would be right in the middle of the big open field. If you die in the cave and are “auto-WPed” away, instead of spawning at the nearest Waypoint free of charge, you are teleported to this rally point, but left dead. You can then choose to WP back, or wait around for someone to rez you, but either way you’re out of everyone else’s hair.

I think this is the best of both worlds, as it provides no benefit to the dead player, no free rez, but also keeps them from cluttering up the battlefield.

Gaile Gray.6029:

This is an interesting idea. I’d love other feedback on this before taking questions to the dev team. (I’m sure they’ve thought of this, but there may be info to share on the subject.)

What do you guys think about auto-waypointing people (assuming after a certain period, of course) in the midst of specific types of combat encounters? And because I don’t think it’d work for every situation, can you specify which combat instances you believe would benefit from this functionality? Somehow I think dying to a rampaging bandit in Ashford wouldn’t count.

Crovax — I hope you don’t mind, but I changed “bad” to “downed” in the subject. It just seems better (and more relevant) that way. S’ok?

My suggestion is to simply change the scaling code so that it doesn’t account for dead bodies in the area. Additionally you could put a big annoying pop-up on the dead player’s screen that says "YOU’RE DEAD. YOU SHOULD PRESS “M” AND WAYPOINT."

I would really… really hope the devs have been aware of this and just decided not to change it for whatever reason… I mean there has to be a really good reason for bosses to scale off dead bodies right? Seriously, there has to be. Because if there isn’t and the devs just never thought of it… Thats… Thats… I’m just gonna stop now before I say a bunch of mean things about the devs…

The only good reason I can think of is to give the boss a sort of snow-balling advantage, thus increasing his chance of defeating the players. Sort of like a berserk timer. However, in it’s current implementation, it’s not that the boss is winning by his own accord. It’s that lazy, inconsiderate, dead players are refusing to waypoint out because they are not prompted to do so. If you want to improve the player experience in this situation, you need to properly prompt dead players to waypoint, and remove dead body scaling.

This is mainly an issue of stupid, greedy people. How anyone can do the mental math and count the seconds it takes to get from WP to event and then sit there saying “res res” like a moron? On the flip side, how many people see dead people for more than 20 secs and not tell them “respawn, moron”?

No need for auto waypoint if the dead bodies do not upscale the bosses.

Ress the downed, leave the dead until the fight is over. It takes far too much time to ress completely dead players during a boss fight and unfortunatelly chances are that even if you manage to revive someone, he just dies again within next 10 seconds.

This may be a long post.

Let us start with the problem. Players enter into the area of an event and the event scales in difficulty. If a player dies within the event area they are still counted as part of the event scaling along with all the downed and living players. So unless the dead players leave the area the event retains its high-scaled difficulty.

Considering it takes a long time to revive dead players and when you are outnumbered by enemies that are actively trying to defeat you, meaning little to no time to revive, that would mean the living players are not able to revive the dead. Additionally, for the dead if they waypoint they do not receive the reward for the event so it is in their best interest to stay within the event area, because even if the event fails at least they still get part of the reward.

Possible Solution #1: Scale up the surviving players based upon the amount of dead players, the difficulty of the event and the amount of surviving players.

Meaning: If an event is scaled to 20 players and roughly half of them are dead then the surviving players gain bonuses to damage, defense and other aspects to help them survive the event and possibly completing it. The more players that die the greater the bonus is for the survivors with the bonuses decreasing as more living players enter the event area. Basically, the surviving players become stronger to handle the high difficulty.

Possible Solution #2: Introduce new enemies, or utilize existing enemies, that when killed raises a defeated player into their downed state. This means it will be easier to revive the player for the living or allows the possibility of the downed player rallying.

Meaning: This solution would be the easiest one to utilize and control. The reason is that typically you can assign conditions that when fulfilled will spawn that enemy and you can control which events you wish to have them appear in. The conditions that they spawn would be in the higher-scaled difficulties with a higher chance of them spawning as players die. This would allow surviving players the chance of getting dead players back into the event while they can focus more on surviving. At least that is the basic idea.

Personally, I am against auto-way-pointing dead players because it takes control of the character away from the player and punishes them for not wanting to utilize the waypoint system in a particular timeframe. Additionally, if people knew players would be auto-ported when they died then chances are surviving players would not mind letting downed players to fend for themselves, at least in PvE, because the survivors would benefit either way.

In the current system the survivors want to keep people alive or prevent them from entering the defeated state because if they were alive they can help with the event and if they were defeated it would increase the difficulty for the surviving players.

Corana.9837:

Possible Solution #1: Scale up the surviving players based upon the amount of dead players, the difficulty of the event and the amount of surviving players.

Meaning: If an event is scaled to 20 players and roughly half of them are dead then the surviving players gain bonuses to damage, defense and other aspects to help them survive the event and possibly completing it. The more players that die the greater the bonus is for the survivors with the bonuses decreasing as more living players enter the event area. Basically, the surviving players become stronger to handle the high difficulty.

This would probably just lead to some players letting people die and even try to get them killed just to see big numbers on themselves. :P

but who will be the noble soul to rez us?

shouldn’t be auto-port to a WP, but a timer (lets say, 30 seconds) after which you get ported to nearest WP

Events should simply not scale based on dead players. Considering how broken the in-combat detection is, it would not surprise me if the game also incorrectly detects combat activity during bosses.

I don’t like being automatically teleported out of a boss fight. Fix what is broken, don’t make the experience more punishing.

Corana.9837:

Additionally, for the dead if they waypoint they do not receive the reward for the event

This is flat out wrong! You get the reward regardless of where you are as long as it’s in the same zone. Please don’t spread misinformation because that’s what got us here in the first place. Dead players are always more useful when they WP.

A lot of the other responses just make me loose faith in humanity; specc for support and ress dead players? Yeah in the open world maybe but not when you’re struggling with a damage race where every point counts. Did you even try the new bossfights?
Well yeah and some people don’t seem to get that I was referring to the underground bosses, not the legends.

Crovax.7854:

Dead players are always more useful when they WP.

Of course, if dead players WP it’s far easier to see who is downed but not dead, to revive them quickly so they can continue the fight.

Crovax.7854:

You get the reward regardless of where you are as long as it’s in the same zone.

Even if this were the case (which isn’t widespread knowledge), I never know if I participated enough before I died to be eligible for the reward. If I go to the waypoint, I am removed from the event area and am definitely not working towards the reward any more, because I am not able to reach the event area again before the event is over.

On the other hand, if I stay in spite of being defeated, I have a chance of contributing again. Small chance, but better than no chance. We also don’t know if it counts to our event contribution or not if we are simply present while being defeated after being hit by an event enemy.

So I will stay and will not go to the waypoint, and that’s simply a logical decision.

If there is any fault here (I don’t know, the whole thing may be intended by the devs) it is the whole environment and the game mechanics. Not how players react.

It’s a pity, because the whole Silverwastes zone is real fun – with the only exception of not being able to return to the major zone event after being defeated. It’s not that I die often – I really don’t remember when I last died in an event in the open world while being in a group.

Silmar Alech.4305:

Crovax.7854:

You get the reward regardless of where you are as long as it’s in the same zone.

Even if this were the case (which isn’t widespread knowledge), I never know if I participated enough before I died to be eligible for the reward. If I go to the waypoint, I am removed from the event area and am definitely not working towards the reward any more, because I am not able to reach the event area again before the event is over.

On the other hand, if I stay in spite of being defeated, I have a chance of contributing again. Small chance, but better than no chance. We also don’t know if it counts to our event contribution or not if we are simply present while being defeated after being hit by an event enemy.

It doesn’t count. If you die at Amber because you fall on the Troll AOE and you are never ressed you get nothing. Simply being present doesn’t give you any contribution. If you die very quickly, it’s better to run back, there is enough time. If you die later on, you probably did -something- to earn contribution so using a WP once again helps everyone else since you will get your contribution reward anyway.

Silmar Alech.4305:

Crovax.7854:

You get the reward regardless of where you are as long as it’s in the same zone.

Even if this were the case (which isn’t widespread knowledge), I never know if I participated enough before I died to be eligible for the reward. If I go to the waypoint, I am removed from the event area and am definitely not working towards the reward any more, because I am not able to reach the event area again before the event is over.

On the other hand, if I stay in spite of being defeated, I have a chance of contributing again. Small chance, but better than no chance. We also don’t know if it counts to our event contribution or not if we are simply present while being defeated after being hit by an event enemy.

So I will stay and will not go to the waypoint, and that’s simply a logical decision.

If there is any fault here (I don’t know, the whole thing may be intended by the devs) it is the whole environment and the game mechanics. Not how players react.

It’s a pity, because the whole Silverwastes zone is real fun – with the only exception of not being able to return to the major zone event after being defeated.

You do get rewards regardless of location and no, just being present doesn’t count towards participation as anyone who played longer than a week could tell you. The only thing that counts towards contribution is damage done to event mobs; I know this for a fact.
Only hitting an enemy once already qualifies you for bronze and in the new zone rewards for gold silver and bronze are the same!
If you already got even one hit in, you get full rewards!
Players who don’t WP are basically parasites, leeching off of and actively hurting others by doing nothing while still scaling boss HP and in the underground fights that does make a difference.

Actually WPing is in your best interst as it can mean the difference between success and failure meaning less rewards for everyone, including yourself, you just didn’t know that.

If this is the case, it should be made more apparent by some ingame mechanics. For me, this isn’t apparent at all.

Are you sure that hitting even one time (1) makes me eligible for the reward? Don’t call me stubborn or ignorant, but the mechanics of other events with a single champion is that you have to do some minimal amount of damage to the boss, and this minimal amount is not always dealt with a single hit. Especially Gold and Silver are somewhat elusive, and not seldom players are stomped on before they even have a chance to deal damage even once.

I really want to contribute to the fight. I don’t want to leech. I hate leechers. I don’t want to lay around defeated. Just because I want to contribute, I stay. And I hate it. But I really see it as only chance to being able to contribute to this particular event again. Returning to the event minutes later for some remaining seconds (if at all) after running the long way from the waypoint isn’t particular what I call contributing.

Silmar Alech.4305:

Are you sure that hitting even one time (1) makes me eligible for the reward? Don’t call me stubborn or ignorant, but the mechanics of other events with a single champion is that you have to do some minimal amount of damage to the boss, and this minimal amount is not always dealt with a single hit. Especially Gold and Silver are somewhat elusive, and not seldom players are stomped on before they even have a chance to deal damage even once.

I don’t think one hit will make you eligible for a reward, you need to deal a certain percentage of damage to the mob to get any reward.

If contribution actually mattered, people would put in more effort and less people would lay dead or AFK the entire event. The system in its current state is far too easily abused – hit a single mob and move on. There is no perfect formula however and the major contributor, damage, will only lead to complaints from players wearing defensive gear trying to argue their usefulness. Other factors such as damage taken, healing, reviving, CC and special mechanics can be fairly hard to measure and easily exploited.

If there was a contribution scoreboard, they could make it simple by calculating rewards based on the average. If you failed to contribute within a certain percentage of that, you should get nothing or heavily diminished rewards. The higher your contribution, the higher quality your loot roll should be, granting you more or higher rarity rewards. Unique exotics for example should have a higher drop rate and only drop for top contributors.

Unlike forced waypointing, this would likely destroy players that run in and die, forcing them to either get better or get nothing.

Silmar Alech.4305:

If this is the case, it should be made more apparent by some ingame mechanics. For me, this isn’t apparent at all.

Are you sure that hitting even one time (1) makes me eligible for the reward? Don’t call me stubborn or ignorant, but the mechanics of other events with a single champion is that you have to do some minimal amount of damage to the boss, and this minimal amount is not always dealt with a single hit. Especially Gold and Silver are somewhat elusive, and not seldom players are stomped on before they even have a chance to deal damage even once.

I really want to contribute to the fight. I don’t want to leech. I hate leechers. I don’t want to lay around defeated. Just because I want to contribute, I stay. And I hate it. But I really see it as only chance to being able to contribute to this particular event again. Returning to the event minutes later for some remaining seconds (if at all) after running the long way from the waypoint isn’t particular what I call contributing.

It’s measured by damage, however the threshold is so low that it might as well be one hit. I had multiple accounts of me entering a breach map and running to gold to get a single hit in and be eligible for bronze rewards (which are the same as gold). Even the boss at red who only takes 100-200 damage per direct hit only requires one hit to qualify for rewards.

I stand by what I said; for the underground bosses you are always better off porting. Staying dead is hurting yourself as well the whole map.

The legends are an exception; In order to get mob loot you have to be present when they die, however those are not timed fights so I don’t see a problem with hanging around in order to not miss out.

Infernia.9847:

The GW2 Wiki page:

Events scale both up and down according to the number of players who are currently participating. Events can scale in a number of ways:

Enemy stats can be increased
Enemies can gain new abilities
New enemy types may appear, including veterans or even champion versions
Enemy count can be increased
Objective requirements may increase

I don’t believe that events scale down. At least not in the way that existing mobs
loose HPs when people leave, since that could be easily exploited.

The only downscaling that maybe exists is that just the number and stats of respawing
mobs are lower after players leave.

However if a single boss is scaled up to 100 players he will not suddenly loose all his
stats when 99 people leave.

I think this thread should be renamed:

People who don’t rez dragging everyone down.

Do the events downscale in enough time that it matters? I doubt it downscales any faster whether the player stays lying dead or WPs. So that part isn’t the problem. The problem is that, while the event is still [as highly upscaled as it was] either way, living players actually contribute, while dead or absent ones don’t.

Olvendred.3027:

Do the events downscale in enough time that it matters? I doubt it downscales any faster whether the player stays lying dead or WPs. So that part isn’t the problem. The problem is that, while the event is still [as highly upscaled as it was] either way, living players actually contribute, while dead or absent ones don’t.

That is a question only Gaile can get the answer to.
How often does the game’s code poll/ check to see that player’s are still contributing and either upscale or downscale the event?
I still say the best method is to shorten this time interval during the event. Though that may create new problems with server load, more frequent polling, but maybe not.

Olvendred.3027:

Do the events downscale in enough time that it matters? I doubt it downscales any faster whether the player stays lying dead or WPs. So that part isn’t the problem. The problem is that, while the event is still [as highly upscaled as it was] either way, living players actually contribute, while dead or absent ones don’t.

I don’t think it downscales at all at the specific events since there is only 1 Champ
and existing mobs don’t scale down.

You talk as if every person plays this game since launch without any break. And Your expect that Every single person in SW is there alrdy since it was released. Sorry to break it to you but that isnt the case.

Start at Your desired result. Dead Players not upscaling the Boss. And you got the solution alrdy.

I would like a set of Superior Runes Of The Medic.

Ideally, these would provide a standard 25% movement speed increase, faster revival time and no 50% penalty for reviving while in combat.

Could include Medic’s Vengeance. Allows a downed player with the full rune set to rally and stay alive if they can complete a revival before the vengeance expires.

Standard downed penalties would still apply.

Too O.P.?

GamerOnline.3650:

I would like a set of Superior Runes Of The Medic.

Ideally, these would provide a standard 25% movement speed increase, faster revival time and no 50% penalty for reviving while in combat.

Could include Medic’s Revenge. Allows a downed player with the full rune set to rally and stay alive if they can complete a revival before the revenge expires.

Standard downed penalties would still apply.

Too O.P.?

Well there is the Superior Rune of Mercy

But it’s nowhere near what you’re talking about.

I sometimes lay there for 2-3 mins to see if someone can rez me. But only if the WP is rather far away (which is the case in Silverwastes). The problem is that you sometimes get downed extremely fast. I usually run Berserker gear only and in the cluttered enemy areas there are single attacks that can almost insta down you. I can’t simply play always fully concentrated, especially when I play several hours.

Beldin.5498:

Olvendred.3027:

Do the events downscale in enough time that it matters? I doubt it downscales any faster whether the player stays lying dead or WPs. So that part isn’t the problem. The problem is that, while the event is still [as highly upscaled as it was] either way, living players actually contribute, while dead or absent ones don’t.

I don’t think it downscales at all at the specific events since there is only 1 Champ
and existing mobs don’t scale down.

In the early days of 3-Headed Wurm, when there was that scaling bug, some people on ts were using some not-particularly-legal program thing to determine the health. Which was definitely going down as well as up. That could be seen by anyone, anyway, since “super-burns” occurred at later burn phases.

This means that it must be possible for a single mob to downscale.

ProtoGunner.4953:

I sometimes lay there for 2-3 mins to see if someone can rez me. But only if the WP is rather far away (which is the case in Silverwastes). The problem is that you sometimes get downed extremely fast. I usually run Berserker gear only and in the cluttered enemy areas there are single attacks that can almost insta down you. I can’t simply play always fully concentrated, especially when I play several hours.

I’ve been running in zerk exclusively myself. The trick is to dodge the big attacks :p Other than that, this behaviour is exactly why I asked for forced removal of dead bodies or at least more frequent checks to downscale bosses. Only one WP is perfectly fine – the bosses were not meant to be zerged. If you are dead, that’s it, better luck next breach. You even get full rewards!

I just don’t understand these people…

Haven’t read it all so apologies if anything has already been suggested.

1. The title is very misleading — maybe Gaile can correct it; DEAD not DOWNED.

2. There needs to be an option or something done about the Dead/Downed clogging up the interact “F” Key. Underneath those bodies might be something you need to interract with…could you imagine 50 bodies piled on top of the Teq turrets? Or sometime in the future Anet makes a Zerg event where you need to pick things up?

3. Events don’t scale properly, period – and they never appear to scale down..maybe it’s due to the “reward list” being the same as the “scaling list”? i.e. once someone has tagged a mob long enough to get credit for that mob/event/etc. then they are on the scaling list.

4. Every zone could have a special WP, one that will never be contested, maybe color them Red in the center? When an event is up in the area and you die you get WP’ed to this special WP FOR FREE…you can WP back, yes it may be far but that’s why you get ported for free originally. There could be some checking to see if you are currently being ressed, a 10? second delay once dead, etc.

5. Rezzing the dead is a waste, it’s better to do the DPS yourself then get some dead person up. Yeah there are plenty of situations yadda yadda where the mob has too much HP/regen/whatever where you need more people — but seriously, WP and run the F back.

6. Are the legendaries even an Event? If not why aren’t they?

Olvendred.3027:

Beldin.5498:

Olvendred.3027:

Do the events downscale in enough time that it matters? I doubt it downscales any faster whether the player stays lying dead or WPs. So that part isn’t the problem. The problem is that, while the event is still [as highly upscaled as it was] either way, living players actually contribute, while dead or absent ones don’t.

I don’t think it downscales at all at the specific events since there is only 1 Champ
and existing mobs don’t scale down.

In the early days of 3-Headed Wurm, when there was that scaling bug, some people on ts were using some not-particularly-legal program thing to determine the health. Which was definitely going down as well as up. That could be seen by anyone, anyway, since “super-burns” occurred at later burn phases.

This means that it must be possible for a single mob to downscale.

Depends what the program showed — if it showed % HP then no incorrect. If showed the actual # of HP then could be but is still not a “scaling changed”.

— I think know the program you are talking about and that actually showed the Wurm did NOT scale properly and was NEVER downscaling — Regen, people stopping DPS and paying more attention to other things (like this program), etc.

Gaile Gray.6029:

This is an interesting idea.

Unless you all plan on removing the Way Point cost, this is a bad idea since it is catering to the Elitist Players that demand the dead to use a way point instead of helping dead players as it was originally intended.

Any serious event should be treated like dungeons and lock out way points until everyone is dead in the event bubble to further encourage cooperation and support tactics instead of way point zerg fests.

I already figured out why the armor repair cost was removed since a double Mace/Long Bow Warrior tends to die a lot in the LS2 instances since the removal. Someone knew armor was going to get destroyed A LOT in LS2 and they preempted the armor repair cost complains early.

Please do not support the “WP if you’re Dead” crowd Gaile.

Ravion Hawk.4736:

Gaile Gray.6029:

This is an interesting idea.

Unless you all plan on removing the Way Point cost, this is a bad idea since it is catering to the Elitist Players that demand the dead to use a way point instead of helping dead players as it was originally intended.

Any serious event should be treated like dungeons and lock out way points until everyone is dead in the event bubble to further encourage cooperation and support tactics instead of way point zerg fests.

I already figured out why the armor repair cost was removed since a double Mace/Long Bow Warrior tends to die a lot in the LS2 instances since the removal. Someone knew armor was going to get destroyed A LOT in LS2 and they preempted the armor repair cost complains early.

Please do not support the “WP if you’re Dead” crowd Gaile.

It was suggested that the port be free of charge. Plus ressing dead players is something many people like to do; it feels good to help others, however in events like the new bosses, every point of damage counts, especially at gold/silver.
If you think my viewpoint, that removing yourself from the area in order to not actively prevent others from successfully beating the fight in time is to be considered common courtesy and more importantly common sense, as elitist then I can’t help you.

Edit: I’m using LB with axe/mace or GS in full zerk armor and completely offensive traits and died twice across all story instances since season 2 started; maybe it’s a l2p issue on your part?

Edit2: again, I don’t mind dead players except for situation where you have to race a clock and said players scale the event up without contributing.

Infernia.9847:

I think a major question should be asked before this change takes place:
Exactly how event scaling works.

The GW2 Wiki page:

Events scale both up and down according to the number of players who are currently participating. Events can scale in a number of ways:

Enemy stats can be increased
Enemies can gain new abilities
New enemy types may appear, including veterans or even champion versions
Enemy count can be increased
Objective requirements may increase

Most events scale for up to 10 players.Group events and large scale events such as the finale for meta events will scale much higher. For example, The Shatterer scales up to 100 players. Events can detect that players have not performed any actions relating to the event within a period of time and will scale down the event accordingly.

We need to know what actions qualify for participation in an event. If I res somebody and they are attacked by an enemy, does that count as participation? If a ranger is afk but their pet is attacking, does it count? If a guardian is revived, gets up, has aegis and blocks an attack before dying again? Someone’s rune procs a supernova in downed state? Tanky warrior outhealing the attacks?

There are many scenerios to consider. A wp timer of five minutes like the one added to wvw would allow the other participants to decide whether or not someone is worth reviving. Most people can tell within a few minutes of an event who is afk and who died because they made a mistake.

aspirine.6852:

I do not like auto-waypointing in pve, in wvw it could be ok if it’s after a minute or so.

That already happens in WvW after 5 minutes to prevent spying and certain mesmer portal exploits. Events also do not scale in WvW, so that’s irrelevant to this discussion though.

SKATE.1394:

Also, there is no reference link for that particular bolded line, and the reference links for the others are broken. So the dev team should still be consulted to verify that this is actually the case.

And if it’s true, and events can dynamically scale for afk or non contributing players, then that means they can also easily scale for dead players using similar lines of code, and they should be flagged as such instantly upon death, not within a window.

I agree wholeheartedly.

It would be nice to make it easier to avoid reviving defeated (as opposed to downed) players during combat, as this is usually undesired. Maybe an option in the player settings so that reviving downed characters or defeated characters ooc still uses the normal button, but reviving defeated characters in combat uses a separate button.

Regardless, excluding defeated characters from scaling would be very helpful. Right now, it’s too costly in time to be worth reviving them, so it unnecessarily introduces strife to open world events.

Corana.9837:

Considering it takes a long time to revive dead players and when you are outnumbered by enemies that are actively trying to defeat you, meaning little to no time to revive, that would mean the living players are not able to revive the dead. Additionally, for the dead if they waypoint they do not receive the reward for the event so it is in their best interest to stay within the event area, because even if the event fails at least they still get part of the reward.

Possible Solution #1: Scale up the surviving players based upon the amount of dead players, the difficulty of the event and the amount of surviving players.

Meaning: If an event is scaled to 20 players and roughly half of them are dead then the surviving players gain bonuses to damage, defense and other aspects to help them survive the event and possibly completing it. The more players that die the greater the bonus is for the survivors with the bonuses decreasing as more living players enter the event area. Basically, the surviving players become stronger to handle the high difficulty.

How about a more balanced and less gameable solution?

Solution: Reviving speed and vitality of the reviver is compoundly boosted by how high the event scales, and the ratio of surviving and dead (not down) there are in the range of the reviveee to a max of 4.

Meaning: Revive speed of dead (not down) slightly scales higher with the scale of the event plus additionally scales higher if there are dead within a certain range of the target (probably something around 1200 range) as well as boosts the reviver’s vitality while reviving. Since downed allies do not contribute to this count, they should be prioritized first so they can quickly contribute to damage or support.

Black Frog.9274:

This is mainly an issue of stupid, greedy people. How anyone can do the mental math and count the seconds it takes to get from WP to event and then sit there saying “res res” like a moron? On the flip side, how many people see dead people for more than 20 secs and not tell them “respawn, moron”?

Actually this is a 2 part issue.

1 – Conveyance

This is a game design term for making players aware of things. Right now the game does not convey the importance of waypointing when dead in a DE. This would be easily fixed with some kind of pop up message with large bold text and an orange arrow or something.

2 – Mechanics

This partially ties in to Conveyance. Right now the game does nothing to convey the fact that the boss scales based on dead bodies. We only have evidence from personal experience and actual hacks (someone made a mod that reads the hidden health data of bosses) to prove that it is happening. This mechanic is unclear to players and seems poorly designed for promoting a cooperative atmosphere for players. Indeed it causes living players to lash out at dead players, which promotes bickering and a toxic community. The mechanic should be tweaked.

Conclusion:

This isn’t necessarily the fault of the players. Players will act naturally and behave in the way the game sort of guides them to. If the game leads them astray, then it’s the fault of the game’s design.

A lot of players are conditioned from other games not to waypoint out of a fight when they die, because in those games you lose all credit and rewards for doing so.

Many players are simply unaware of the scaling they cause because the game does not convey it to them. All they see is angry players yelling at them in chat. In today’s society, people don’t take kindly to strangers yelling at them and are less likely to appreciate anything the stranger has to say. Many players simply turn they map chat off all together.

In regards to all the people asking for reviving speed of dead to be boosted – no.
Being completely defeated is meant to take you out of the fight, hence the long time it takes to revive. Defeated players are by design meant to either WP or be revived after the fight or in between waves in a wave based event.

Any solution that involves lessening the time it takes to revive deafeted players is in my opinion really short-sighted as it just makes every event incredibly zergable – something the Devs have shown they don’t want as the last couple of open world releases from Pavillion onwards always encouraged zerg splitting.

In case someone from the Devs is reading this and wondering why the initial post was asking for porting players outside of the event and not for, say, more frequent scans of active players or taking defeated out of the equation for scaling, it was mainly after taking the Devs into consideration.

I know ANet is stretched pretty thin atm with the LS releases and whatever they’re working on on the side so I was proposing something that’s already in the game and doesn’t require a big amount of developing time or is probably flat out impossible.
Scanning the active players for example may even be impossible with their current server structure. The same goes for removing dead players from scaling; I’m not an IT guy but I’m sure this would require a lot of work on their scaling engine-thingy.

Simply moving players is already in the game; it happens during cutscenes, story and even when we enter the bossfights themselves. My proposition was just based on my view that the problem is solved most effectively with almost no dev-time that way.

Crovax.7854:

In regards to all the people asking for reviving speed of dead to be boosted – no.
Being completely defeated is meant to take you out of the fight, hence the long time it takes to revive. Defeated players are by design meant to either WP or be revived after the fight or in between waves in a wave based event.

Any solution that involves lessening the time it takes to revive deafeted players is in my opinion really short-sighted as it just makes every event incredibly zergable – something the Devs have shown they don’t want as the last couple of open world releases from Pavillion onwards always encouraged zerg splitting.

To defend my perspective on the matter, more group ‘roles’ should be encouraged, one of which could be casualty control for those that prefer that route or simple feel better suited for such.

Also, I’m more or less suggesting this in the particular dire situation where casualties are in an extreme proportion of the current players. New arrivals on to a situation like that can do a solid by reviving a couple of people before leaping into the fray so that those revived players can do the same. . . Or in the extreme case where failure is eminent, revival could actually help turn the tide, because that’s what makes fights exciting, balancing on the razor’s edge of defeat only to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.

Crovax.7854:

I’m using LB with axe/mace or GS in full zerk armor and completely offensive traits and died twice across all story instances since season 2 started; maybe it’s a l2p issue on your part?

Not everyone wants to or can afford to play the Zerker Meta. This is not a L2P issue since the setup worked all through the PS and in PvE. LS2 is being balanced for the Elitist that say everything is too easy yet they conveniently forget that not everyone uses the Meta builds.

You proved my point even more with that comment.

Elitist mindset is:
Full Zerker or GTFO
WP if you are Dead

ANet needs to fix this. The first step is treating big events like dungeons and get the players working together instead of WP zerging and allowing Elitist jerks to flood the chat with “WP if you are Dead.”

The only fix to the Zerker Meta would be removing the stat combo like they did with MF stat combos. That way content isn’t balanced against the Zerker and become OP against everything else.

I would say open world large events (more than 10 people) should have a scaling check about every 30-45 seconds, with an announcement in-game that event has scaled due to active, alive characters fighting. Perhaps saying “Event has scaled up due to more players arriving” and “Event has scaled down due to deaths of players”.

Ravion Hawk.4736:

Not everyone wants to or can afford to play the Zerker Meta. This is not a L2P issue since the setup worked all through the PS and in PvE.

My point was actually not that zerk is an advantage but a big disadvantage in the new story instances. Playing in zerk basically means you have to dodge all of the big stuff and still be extremely careful of the little hits that just get thrown around by enemies, let alone all the cc, especially by the inquest golems during the first couple of episodes.

What I was trying to say was: It’s possible to do it with literally zero defense, except 2 dodges on a long cooldown. If you can’t do it without dying ‘quote: A LOT’, even with defensive gear and presumably according trait/utility choices, then it very well is a l2p issue on your part

Everyone is welcome in open world content and in most events it’s ‘the more the merrier’ however in timed events, especially the new bosses, with a time limit of 5 short minutes, dead players are, as was many times said already, a hindrance to the overall success.